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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 6601 - 6650 of 9336 |

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6601. Comment #186443 by Elli on May 30, 2008 at 9:42 am

 avatartxpiper,

an organism that does not produce viable offspring will not pass on its genes, no matter how long it lives.

It is not survival that matters - it is survival of its offspring.

Other Comments by Elli

6602. Comment #186444 by The Reverend Dark on May 30, 2008 at 9:44 am

 avatarTxpiper lifted a leg and spoke

What you are saying here is that selection will make a decision on behalf of the progeny to the detriment of the individual organism, if necessary.


No dumb-arse; you are deliberately misrepresenting the material presented to you. Selection is not something like an imaginary friend pointing to A or B; it does not 'choose' for descendents.

PS. I loved your vacation notes

The biggest impression I was left with how much sedimentary material lies on top of the Genesis rock. Some time back I read an article that said that there are over 30 million cubic miles of sediments on the exposed land masses of the earth (I have seen much larger numbers). That would be enough to cover every continent with sedimentary rock well over a half mile deep from coast to coast. What this means in real terms, is that no matter who is saying what about the fossil record, the fact is that nobody knows much of anything about what is in the rock layers. Thousands of geologists working full time for centuries could only scratch the surface. Being several thousand feet below the canyon rim really drove home what an awesome thing the flood was. The helicopter ride down to the river was almost worth the money by itself.


The Genesis rock? You sir are a laugh riot. Not to mention casually dismissing the work of geologists world wide; geologists I might add who have thoroughly refuted the assinine notion of a global flood.

http://www.christianinformant.com/index.php?action=profile;u=1412;sa=showPosts


I also liked this one

If you move to microbiology, there is absolutely nothing that supports evolution. To think that anything observed at that level, where incomprehensible organization and complexity is the norm, came to exist by accident, takes fabulous faith.


Fuck. You really are as ignorant as advertised; and a hypocrite given that you post the above while still going on about Steele's work.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

6603. Comment #186468 by Dr Benway on May 30, 2008 at 10:18 am

 avatar
txpiper: I believe things are in descent having begun in perfection. Evolution is trying to say that organisms have ascended to where they are now from a single cell by way of mutations. I believe living organisms are in a downward spiral.
Biologists may speak of the ascent of man or other species. But this is poetry. There is no ascent or descent per se. There is simply a sea of replicators replicating.

To get the hang of biology you must lose your anthrocentrism. Have a look at the world from the vantage of a bird, a fish, a spider, a bacterium, a mitochondrian, or a gene. Would T Rex feel that this era of mammalianism is an improvement compared to the age of reptiles? In terms of the menu, perhaps.

Approximately 90 percent of the cells within your body belong to various non-human species. They call your body "ours" just as you call it "mine." Your arms, legs, and brain work for these others as much as for yourself.

Of those cells within you which are human you'll note no loyalty oaths. They generally cooperate with the rest of you, clearly. But they do murder their brothers with some frequency. These fratricides are often to your benefit but not always.

Even within that which is most you --your own genome-- you are overrun with foreigners. Your chromosomes are chock-a-block with endogenous retroviruses and fragments of genes once useful to other species but of no use to you.

Now that you have shrugged off your speciesism you can answer this question: Who conquered the New World, the European or his parasites?

Other Comments by Dr Benway

6604. Comment #186480 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 10:45 am

 avatarDoc
But they do murder their brothers


I think you have hit the anthropomorphic level just right for tx.

But I fear these might be so many cast pearls.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

6605. Comment #186481 by Quine on May 30, 2008 at 10:46 am

 avatarComment #186219 by alan baylis:

I am quite enjoying watching txpipers regular excursions into what people like him must think of as the devils lair.

I suspect this works both ways, in that, there are readers from his side, who are smarter than a fifth grader, sitting at home learning that so much of their world view just doesn't stand up.

Other Comments by Quine

6606. Comment #186482 by Diacanu on May 30, 2008 at 10:48 am

 avatarD'oh!
Dammit, Phil Rimmer, why did you delete your original post? It was good!

Plus, I wanted to expand on your point about txpiper not being able to understand a process unless he anthropomorphises it.

Txpiper, do you think the foodstuffs in your refrigerator spring into animation and sing and dance when you close the door?

You have about as much evidence for believing in that as there is for religion; so if not, why not?

You may find this a facetious example, but seriously, where's the cutoff point for what's too silly to believe?

Other Comments by Diacanu

6607. Comment #186494 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 11:12 am

 avatarSorry Diacanu, but I was so impressed by Doc's lovely and genuinely helpful post, which I read after posting mine, that I relented a bit on the spleen front. The observation of yours I quoted, however, remains entirely true.

Trust a doctor to keep trying when all hope is gone....

Other Comments by phil rimmer

6608. Comment #186498 by Quine on May 30, 2008 at 11:18 am

 avatarPZ has just put up a great video link to a presentation by Jerry Coyne about this whole subject of the public understanding of the ToE.

P.S. Coyne uses the term "Darwinism" repeatedly through this video, which I believe is not a good idea because the 'ism part carries the psychological baggage of terms like Marxism and Catholicism. Each place he used it, it sounded like he meant "Darwinian evolution" which would have been better (i.e. representing an objectively testable truth). We should leave the 'isms to the politicians and to those pushing religion.

Other Comments by Quine

6609. Comment #186505 by MaxD on May 30, 2008 at 12:18 pm

 avatarPhilR,
Do you have a copy of the post that you deleted, if so by all means pm it my way.

I think Txpipers 10 minutes in the penalty box are up. So said being may return to the floor.

Other Comments by MaxD

6610. Comment #186512 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 1:12 pm

 avatarMaxD.

Sorry, distracted by my kids and Jerry Coyne. All of them were hilarious, but Jerry Coyne took the cherry with the unintelligent design flaw of the laryngeal nerve, down from the brain, looped under the aorta and back up again, a pretty major detour for a giraffe. He was devastating. I just imagine tx, hands over ears, eyes closed singing and rocking to keep the nasty cold heartless impersonal truth at bay.

My clipboard was empty, I'm afraid. I'll try and reconstitute it after more domestic duties.

EDIT I've PMed you.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

6611. Comment #186521 by alan baylis on May 30, 2008 at 1:37 pm

Comment #186481 by Quine

I suspect this works both ways, in that, there are readers from his side, who are smarter than a fifth grader, sitting at home learning that so much of their world view just doesn't stand up.


I rather suspect that this includes tx himself, if the truth be told.

Regards,
Alan.

Other Comments by alan baylis

6612. Comment #186522 by MaxD on May 30, 2008 at 1:37 pm

 avatarPhil,
No problem, but don't let it happen again or there will be trouble!

Other Comments by MaxD

6613. Comment #186529 by righton on May 30, 2008 at 2:00 pm

philrimmer

Can you explain your avatar? Who is that?

Other Comments by righton

6614. Comment #186538 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 2:33 pm

 avatar
Who is that?


Count Alessandro di Cagliostro, mystic and con artist. Some have said it might even be a picture of me.......

Other Comments by phil rimmer

6615. Comment #186541 by Mark Smith on May 30, 2008 at 2:40 pm

txpiper
What you are saying here is that selection will make a decision on behalf of the progeny to the detriment of the individual organism, if necessary.

How can you have read all the biology you claim to have read and all the explanations you have been given in this thread, and yet still show such woeful misunderstanding as displayed in this quote?

Natural selection works at the level of the replicator and does not 'decide' anything. Simply, the replicator which makes more copies of itself than others will 'out-replicate' and therefore prevail.

I can only think the reason for your woeful mistunderstanding is a prior commitment to contrary beliefs (aka creationism).

[Edit: also, since you clearly don't understand the underlying mechanism, it is not surprising you find the theory difficult.]

Other Comments by Mark Smith

6616. Comment #186542 by Diacanu on May 30, 2008 at 2:53 pm

 avatarI think the stubborn IDiots who come here determined not to learn anything come here as someone upthread said, into the den of hellfire, to deliberately test their skills at slithering free from logic like Houdini out of restraints.

It's a trial of their faith, like an African tribesman leaping over the big bonfire without burning his ass.

They KNOW they're avoiding reality, but they get a sick kind of rush out of it.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6617. Comment #186578 by riandouglas on May 30, 2008 at 5:27 pm

 avatarAhh, it's good to see txpiper is still spouting his thoughtless drivel. Well done sir!

txpiper: I believe things are in descent having begun in perfection. Evolution is trying to say that organisms have ascended to where they are now from a single cell by way of mutations. I believe living organisms are in a downward spiral.


Others have addressed the directionlessness of the theory of evolution. All you've offered is your belief, yet you've put this forward as an alternate theory. Surely you can provide evidence for this directed trend as well as the mechanism by which this is accomplished when all the evidence appears direction less?

Oh yeah, and any time you'd like to admit your flood hypothesis is flawed given the evidence does not support it, that would be great :-)

Other Comments by riandouglas

6618. Comment #186617 by txpiper on May 30, 2008 at 9:09 pm

GordonYKWong,

Then I do wish Prof. Steele success in furthering his research.

I do as well, and his ideas seem to be shaking out. I believe that as preconceptions about the non-coding regions of the DNA molecule are dropped, that they will discover that there are reactive mechanisms involved that explain rapid adaptation very well.

I lost several links I used to have about Steele's work, but in trying to find some of them, I found a couple of interesting paragraphs that speak of recent work that supports some of his proposals:

"In July 2006, Dr Corrado Spadafora published a paper providing evidence that male sex cells or sperm could indeed receive foreign genetic material - information from body cells being written back into the germline DNA. Spadafora presented evidence that a green fluorescent protein, a genetic tag attached to the sperm of a father subsequently showed up in the tissue or body cells of his progeny. He announced that there is in all mature spermatozoa, an efficient machinery to receive information from external DNA molecules and that this behavior is widespread. It has been observed in sperm from more than 30 species, from sea urchins to honey bees to humans. In about a quarter of cases the foreign genes have appeared in the next generation.[14] Spadafora announced in his paper that the genetic transfer mechanism he had discovered involves the generation and 'non-Mendelian' spread of new genetic information beyond that supposedly locked up in the chromosomes.

Simultaneously, in California, molecular biologist Dr Patrick Fogarty, working on gene therapy in animals and humans, found that foreign genes inserted into mice appeared in cells: both body cells and sex cells. He established even more evidence of the effect of reverse transcription or the writing of information back into the DNA of sex cells. But fundamental question for both Fogarty and Ted Steele, was; would the DNA appear in the offspring? Would the new reverse imprint be passed on to progeny? This was the critical evidence needed to demonstrate Lamarckian inheritance.[15] Having established the facts of the reverse transcription in the adult mouse, Fogarty announced, 'we also examined the offspring and lo and behold, we found it showing up in a large percentage of the progeny as well.' In fact, Fogarty and his team were achieving success in up toseventy per cent of progeny. 'It's very Lamarckian,' he said, 'because we take that animal and we not only change its functions and genotype but it carries through and changes the whole offspring as well."

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edward_J._Steele

One of my "personal incredulity" points about mutation/selection beliefs is about the odds of a male germ line beneficial mutation occurring, and the odds of it occurring in the one out of perhaps a hundred million candidates that could be involved in fertilization. The above seems to show that most, perhaps all (male) germ cells could be receptive to reverse-transcribed information.

There are obvious philosophical ramifications to this kind of work. While I believe that natural selection has undergone absurd personification, the reality of adaptive development by way of RT feedback into germ cells is going to, in my view, harden the ID arguments.

Just curious txpiper, is that personal incredulity or an educated hunch? To me you seem well versed in the field (when compared to a lay person like me).

Incredulity based on odds. I learned some severe lessons about probabilities trading futures. Only three things can happen. A market will trade up, trade down or stay flat. It is surprising how often one can be wrong just deciding which of the three is going to happen. I wouldn't be so rude as to name names, but it is easy to spot the folks here who would be getting margin calls after about two days.

I am by no means well versed in the biological sciences. I read a lot, but I am just an interested layman.

====

Keith,

I'd be curious to know if you have ever asked yourself the same question of us i.e. why otherwise intelligent human beings believe that evolution can explain the abundance of life around us.

Of course, but I probably think much more about complexity than I do abundance.

It's clear to me why a species capable of reflecting on its own mortality would grasp at anything that looked remotely like it could remedy this unpleasant fact. What isn't so clear to me is why, other than being motivated by a respect for the evidence, other members of that same species should seem so keen to hammer home the last nail into its own coffin.

What are your thoughts on this?

Well, to answer in the context of the ongoing discussion about evolution, my thoughts would be about why humans have the capability you mention. We start off as one cell and wind up with 100 billion neurons and trillions of synaptic events going on in our brain. I don't think respect for the evidence should trivialize that as a product of random natural processes.

I'd like to know if you would concede the point that a group that hasn't yet come to terms with its own mortality is more liable to fudge the facts than one that has. In short, wouldn't you be more inclined to listen to someone arguing against his own interests than someone arguing for them?

I understand your question, but to concede that point, I would have to accept that assumptions about mortality are correct. Death is hardly arguable, but I don't equate death with the termination of consciousness. I don't believe that concepts like justice, which are profoundly ingrained in our software, are accidental productions either.

====

alan baylis,

I am quite enjoying watching txpipers regular excursions into what people like him must think of as the devils lair.

No, I'm quite comfortable with you guys.

It probably has the effect of keeping the regulars on their metal and of honing their explanatory skills, IMHO. All the while it is helping the less learned of us to understand evolution better.

I think everyone ought to have a razor edge on their worldview. Or perhaps replace it if you just can't get it to hold an edge.

I do think that tx is starting to turn himself inside out somewhat in trying to scrape up yet more perceived anomalies to have explained to him. He doesn't seem to understand that in reality he is mostly just asking the same basic couple of questions or so, but in many different ways

But some of the explanations are not strong at all. Using data from intra-species studies on yeast cultures or bird beaks as evidence for transitions from one vertebrate class to another is sappy. And don't forget that you are still going to see sickle cell anemia providing resistance to malaria on every top ten list of beneficial mutations. This is like having your hands removed to gain a resistance to handcuffs.

Although the folks here have answered all his questions in an honest and forthright manner, he refuses to answer any quite reasonable questions about his religious beliefs. This is blatantly dishonest of him.

You'll just have to consider that as politeness on my part. If you want to post a suitable forum or thread to discuss theology in, I'll be happy to do so. But not here. Put yourself in my place. Some people would immediately be turned off if not outraged if I started quoting Bible verses here.

====

Dr. Benway,

The fact that you or anyone else cannot imagine some sequence of events is no argument at all.

But its your theory Doc. If you can't propose a reasonable developmental sequence, how could you expect anyone to believe that it formed as the result of a series of accidents?

I once heard a chemical process engineer say that some Japanese company set out to design a unit that would duplicate the function of the human liver, but they gave up when they realized how phenomenally complex and costly such an undertaking would be. It really is an unbelievably sophisticated organ. I don't believe that DNA replication errors could produce the blood plumbing for something like that, much less the organ itself.

====

Peacebeuponme,

txpiper - I would ask you this: what is in it for evolutionary biologists to maintain the theory if it is wrong? The religious have a whole deep faith to defend

If you think evolutionary biologists are faith-free, you are not reading their papers with a critical eye. I found over a dozen equivocations in the mammal dentition quote Calilasseia posted above which ended with completely inconclusive statements. Accepting evolutionary constructs requires fabulous faith.

Other Comments by txpiper

6619. Comment #186622 by Diacanu on May 30, 2008 at 9:26 pm

 avatarTxpiper-



Then I do wish Prof. Steele success in furthering his research.


I do as well,


Boolsheet!

To quote the good Reverend quoting you...


Well wouldn't I be rude to dismantle evolution and offer nothing sane to believe in?

I believe things are in descent having begun in perfection. Evolution is trying to say that organisms have ascended to where they are now from a single cell by way of mutations. I believe living organisms are in a downward spiral.


'Nother liar for Jesus.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6620. Comment #186624 by Diacanu on May 30, 2008 at 9:32 pm

 avatartxpiper-


I don't believe that...


That's your whole argument.
That's all you have, that's all you're going to have.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6621. Comment #186646 by Dr Benway on May 30, 2008 at 10:43 pm

 avatar
txpiper: But its your theory Doc. If you can't propose a reasonable developmental sequence...
In your mother's womb there was a time when your liver was a single cell. It gradually developed into something more complex.

If it can develop, it can evolve.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

6622. Comment #186709 by keith on May 31, 2008 at 7:02 am

 avatartxpiper,

I can see now that your one big problem is getting from absolute simplicity to the complexity you now see in humans. However, please don't forget that animals are just as biologically complex as we are so if evolution can't explain our complexity, neither can it explain theirs. They also have billions of cells and synapses etc.

Of course, we could simply say that the Lord God made all of us, humans and animals alike, just as we are now, but then you would have the problem of the fossil record, which dates back hundreds of millions of years. Of course, you could then say that the Lord God made us billions of years ago and we evolved, but then it's evolution that you are doubting...isn't it? (I sometimes get a bit lost about precisely what the problem for religious people is).

I think perhaps now might be the time for you to tell us whether you believe that evolution is an invented phenomenon, or just a process that can explain one or two things in the natural world but not everything.

The reason I ask is because a friend of mine, who suddenly turned Baptist after hearing the voice of God after he took some drugs one weekend in Amsterdam (my friend, not God), said he didn't believe in evolution at all. After a few weeks of bad-tempered arguing, I noticed that he had started to say that, of course, evolution exists, it's just that its power is exaggerated.

Aha, I thought to myself. That old trick. When the evidence against your position begins to pile up, then the only recourse is to say, Yes, okay, it exists but not to the degree bla bla...

It always strikes me that this is rather like someone arguing against gravity who then, after being shown proof that gravity is indeed a force present in the universe, suddenly changes tack and claims, "Okay, yes of course gravity can account for some of the planets' movements around the sun, but it can't explain all of them. For example, I believe that Mercury is in fact attached to the sun by a very long piece of heat-resistent string."

In the same way that this add-on bit is unnecessary, if you are willing to concede that evolution can make cheetahs fast and monkeys clever, why don't you think that with an extra push it could make humans especially clever?

My worry here is that we are arguing simply about the degree of evolution's effect, not about whether it exists. And if it's all just a matter of degree, then all this really boils down to is that you haven't been able to imagine what a few billion years really feels like. Hundreds of years, yes, maybe even thousands, but not billions. Of course, neither can Richard Dawkins nor anyone else imagine what billions of years feels like. However, the important difference between you and them is that for them, being able or not being able to personally imagine something is not the ultimate touchstone of whether or not it is true.

So tell us, is evolution a fiction or is it just very weak? Is this a case of, sure, evolution can make rhinoceros horns but it can't make a human brain? If we get can that clear and it turns out that you do believe in some form of evolution, then maybe we can all save our breath and stop putting forward evidence for its existence, since you will probably view this as evidence, but not necessarily important evidence. If this is indeed the case, then I'd have to say that you have carved out a nice little no-lose situation for yourself. Please let us know if this is so so that we don't waste any more time.

Other Comments by keith

6623. Comment #186730 by The Reverend Dark on May 31, 2008 at 8:20 am

 avatarTXpiper

Incredulity based on odds. I learned some severe lessons about probabilities trading futures. Only three things can happen. A market will trade up, trade down or stay flat. It is surprising how often one can be wrong just deciding which of the three is going to happen. I wouldn't be so rude as to name names, but it is easy to spot the folks here who would be getting margin calls after about two days.


Incredulity based on odds? What are the odds of a supernatural anti-christ? Or an all powerful god with a voyeur fetish? Or a global flood matching that of the genesis account? You use the phrase 'incredulity based on odds' but you clearly don't know what it means.

By the way, nice offhanded insult there laughing boy; and in your normal dipshit manner you are too much of a coward to name names.

Of course you are making the rather egregious assumption that 'the folks' that your keen eye has spotted are comfortable with the risks that you clearly were. If you were educated as to the risks of such trading, you would have been better prepared to know the possible outcomes and evaluate their impact on your financial position. Don't assume that others are as bone-stupid in regards to trading as you imply you were.


I understand your question, but to concede that point, I would have to accept that assumptions about mortality are correct. Death is hardly arguable, but I don't equate death with the termination of consciousness. I don't believe that concepts like justice, which are profoundly ingrained in our software, are accidental productions either.


More personal incredulity laughing boy; along with wish thinking in regards to the survival of consciousness. As you rock back and forth struggling with the idea of your death; you can at least lie to yourself about heaven, god, jesus, and whatever other magical, imaginary friends and are going to keep the essential you from flickering out forever.

You don't believe? That is hardly a compelling argument.


I once heard a chemical process engineer say that some Japanese company set out to design a unit that would duplicate the function of the human liver, but they gave up when they realized how phenomenally complex and costly such an undertaking would be. It really is an unbelievably sophisticated organ. I don't believe that DNA replication errors could produce the blood plumbing for something like that, much less the organ itself.


Once again, personal incredulity with a little off-handed anecdote to back it up with? You don't believe in the evolution of the liver, but a supernatural anti-christ is believable? I am laughing at you, not with you.

Laughing boy, you just don't get it do you?
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2001/08/010801082333.htm

Funny that there are several artificial livers in testing (and some in actual use.)


If you think evolutionary biologists are faith-free, you are not reading their papers with a critical eye. I found over a dozen equivocations in the mammal dentition quote Calilasseia posted above which ended with completely inconclusive statements. Accepting evolutionary constructs requires fabulous faith.


I take it that you did not read the entire paper? Well laughing boy, I look forward to seeing your rebuttal to that paper, when you submit it to the journal, please post a copy here, I am sure everyone would be keen to see what evidence you bring to the table.

Evidence?

Oh that's right. You don't have any. Only incredulity and biblical creation.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

6624. Comment #186809 by Quine on May 31, 2008 at 10:39 am

 avatarComment #186617 by txpiper
While I believe that natural selection has undergone absurd personification, the reality of adaptive development by way of RT feedback into germ cells is going to, in my view, harden the ID arguments.


That looks backwards to me. RT is a part of the known picture of the ways replicators keep going. To "harden" ID arguments (something like hardening not knowing) would require the observation of something that can't happen, even with RT. The more we find of mechanisms used by nature, the less of a gap there is to be filled by this invisible, yet friendly, designer (who must not be named).

Other Comments by Quine

6625. Comment #186836 by txpiper on May 31, 2008 at 11:39 am

Keith,

Of course, we could simply say that the Lord God made all of us, humans and animals alike, just as we are now, but then you would have the problem of the fossil record, which dates back hundreds of millions of years.

"just as we are now" requires qualification. There are all kinds of variations, some very dramatic, others superficial.

The fossil record, in real terms, is a relatively small amount of data that can be interpreted to mean what someone wants it to mean. In my opinion, it is much more anomalous for evolutionary theory than it is for my point of view.

(I sometimes get a bit lost about precisely what the problem for religious people is).

I do as well. But I find it interesting that evolutionary advocates display amazing religious qualities but prefer to perceive themselves as being parked in the supposed cool objectivity of science. This is a gross illusion in my opinion. The reality is that if you compare evolution(ism) to the catholic church or islam, you can find a point for point correlation for just about everything but hymns.

I think perhaps now might be the time for you to tell us whether you believe that evolution is an invented phenomenon, or just a process that can explain one or two things in the natural world but not everything.

Adaptation, even extreme adaptation, really happens. It is easily observable. But the most dramatic examples of adaptation are still almost completely confined to species. The concept does not transfer to one vertebrate class changing into another. That idea is fantasy in my view.

In the same way that this add-on bit is unnecessary, if you are willing to concede that evolution can make cheetahs fast and monkeys clever, why don't you think that with an extra push it could make humans especially clever?

Because you grant "make" powers to evolution, but the supposed mechanisms by which the making takes place are neither demonstrably reliable, nor powerful to the degree you need them to be. You have accidental, random DNA replication errors and the environment that organisms live in to work with, and very little else.

The facts about mutations are in. I won't bother repeating them, but the ratio of neutral/deleterious mutations to the necessary helpful ones is exponentially lopsided. There is no way to hide from that, no matter whose numbers you choose to use.

Regardless of how irritating it is, the reality about selection is that it is used on an as-needed basis. You guys, actually your guys, are all over the place with this. You use phrases like "selection pressure", which is a completely vaporous idea. You call on it when you need the sequential mutations that obviously won't occur accidentally. (Personifying things like this goes all the way back to Darwin, who began excusing himself for this flaw in the third edition of Origins of Species, chapter IV.)

What do you have in mind for the "extra push" you mention? I'm thinking it has to be the selection fairy again. At least that is what it sounds like in these related articles about the supposed evolution of the human brain:

"The accelerated evolution of these genes in the human lineage was apparently driven by strong selection."

" "The human lineage appears to have been subjected to very different selective regimes compared to most other lineages," said Lahn. "Selection for greater intelligence and hence larger and more complex brains is far more intense during human evolution than during the evolution of other mammals." "
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2004-12/hhmi-eth122804.php

http://www.guardian.co.uk/print/0,3858,5092952-103690,00.html


And if it's all just a matter of degree, then all this really boils down to is that you haven't been able to imagine what a few billion years really feels like. Hundreds of years, yes, maybe even thousands, but not billions. Of course, neither can Richard Dawkins nor anyone else imagine what billions of years feels like. However, the important difference between you and them is that for them, being able or not being able to personally imagine something is not the ultimate touchstone of whether or not it is true.

So how would you develop a perspective for vast amounts of time? For instance, let's say for talking purposes, that the pyramids are 5000 years old. What do you think they will look like in 10,000 years? 50,000? 200,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000? 50,000,000? I understand that this taxes the human imagination, but really, what do you think the objects on the plains of Giza, or even the plains themselves, will look like after the passage of these amounts of time?

So tell us, is evolution a fiction or is it just very weak? Is this a case of, sure, evolution can make rhinoceros horns but it can't make a human brain? If we get can that clear and it turns out that you do believe in some form of evolution, then maybe we can all save our breath and stop putting forward evidence for its existence

Evidence for what you could call horizontal change is abundant and profound. But substantiating the claims about vertical change where impossibly radical alterations are thought to occur by accident, is an entirely different issue. To support these, about the best you can do is default to a declaration like Dr. Benway's:

"If it can develop, it can evolve."

This is not evidence. It is proclamation of faith.

Other Comments by txpiper

6626. Comment #186838 by AllanW on May 31, 2008 at 11:45 am

 avatartxpiper;
'Adaptation, even extreme adaptation, really happens. It is easily observable. But the most dramatic examples of adaptation are still almost completely confined to species. The concept does not transfer to one vertebrate class changing into another. That idea is fantasy in my view.'

Oh. Your an advocate for ID then ('Only change within a species, dummy, nowhere else'). Thanks for confirming that. Bye; you cannot be talked with.

Just watch; http://www.rockefeller.edu/evolution/video.php?src=coyne

Other Comments by AllanW

6627. Comment #186859 by alan baylis on May 31, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Comment #186836 by txpiper
You have accidental, random DNA replication errors and the environment that organisms live in to work with, and very little else.


And time tx, unimaginable amounts of it! There, see, you've got it!

-----


I believe things are in descent having begun in perfection


You have made this statement several times. It's not one that I've heard before and I find it very curious. On the face of it, it sounds like a belief devised to fit in with end times belief. Also, it doesn't seem to say much for an all-powerful designer if things that he created to be perfect are spiraling downwards into degradation, as you put it earlier. Sorry if I am misunderstanding you on this. Would you care to expand upon it?

Could you suggest any mechanisms to show how this came about?

Regards,
Alan.

Other Comments by alan baylis

6628. Comment #186862 by Diacanu on May 31, 2008 at 1:37 pm

 avatarReverend Shayne Dark-


Oh that's right. You don't have any. Only incredulity and biblical creation.


And hypocritical blind credulity to biblical creation given there's jack and shit for evidence.

That's the part I can't get mentally ahold of yet.

Mountains of evidence for evolution, mountainous threads explaining this shit "duhhh, nope, nope, nope, nooope!!".

Someone tells you middle eastern fairy tales as a youngster "duurrpp! Makes total sense! I'll hang onto this shit like my life depends on it!".

I can understand the stubborn incredulity once you're indoctrinated with the religious shit, I can't fathom the credulity that one lets that religious stuff slurp into their head without the slightest skepticism filter in the first place.

Yeah, I get it when you're a kid, cuz kids believe whatever adults tell them.

And I get it when a stupid illiterate adult swallows it, because they're effectively neurological children.

I don't get the grown people with otherwise functioning minds who can waste so many braincells defending this stuff, but REFUSE to turn that scrutiny back on religion.

All they have in the end is "I WANT to believe it, leave me alone!".

But, they know "WANT", doesn't cut shit, so they darent even say it.

It's clearly some sort of deep compulsion that ingrains deeper than conscious thought.

The human brain is a funky thing.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6629. Comment #186866 by Diacanu on May 31, 2008 at 1:50 pm

 avatarHmm, going back to childhood indoctrination, no other childhood belief works this way.

Parents tell you about the boogeyman, you figure out it's bullshit, and grow out of it.

Likwise Santa, likewise the Tooth Fairy, likewise the Easter bunny, likewise the Septic Tank Monster.

It's gotta be the reinforcement by other adults.

If some kid refused to let go of Santa belief, and his parents indulged it into his adulthood, and he found other adult Santa freaks, well, you'd have yourself a little club of such people.
and if you could get that little club to grow, bam, a religion of Santaists.

Wheras, normal parents finally go "...sorry Billy, there's no Santa, your dad ate the cookies and milk, and I bought the presents".

And it stops.

And if it doesn't, the ridicule from other children ensues.

So yeah, it all comes down to modeling, and conformity.
That's what the deep compulsion is.

We gotta keep the ridicule going in the discourse 'til it's the norm.
There's no fuckin' Santa.
Enough already.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6630. Comment #186868 by Diacanu on May 31, 2008 at 2:01 pm

 avatarCourse, I'm aware creationists are aware of this threat to their reinforced delusion, I'm blabbing no state secrets, that's why we have this whole casting doubt on evolution campaign as a counter-offensive to have to eyeroll through.

But, we have evidence, they don't.

They never will.

And they know it.

That's why you see the slipperyness that txpiper displays in this thread.

Pick, pick, pick at evolution, run away when asked about religion.

Pick, pick, pick, run away.
Pick, pick, pick, run away.

Go ahead, watch him do it, even after I've pointed it out, he can't not do it.

Other Comments by Diacanu

6631. Comment #186871 by Quine on May 31, 2008 at 2:14 pm

 avatarDiacanu:
All they have in the end is "I WANT to believe it, leave me alone!".


I believe this is Dennett's "belief in belief."

Other Comments by Quine

6632. Comment #186872 by Diacanu on May 31, 2008 at 2:20 pm

 avatarOh, I know!
He won't answer me or Rev cuz he's marginalized us in his mind and posting attitude as cranks.

Everyone, shut down this endless evolution loop, everyone ask him about his religion.

See if he sticks in the fray.

Hey, txpiper, how about Noah's Ark?
How about the super powered Anti-Christ?
What instrumentality did the intelligent designer use?

Other Comments by Diacanu

6633. Comment #186899 by alan baylis on May 31, 2008 at 5:22 pm

Txpiper,

Do you actually read many of the links that you selectively quote from?
I'm, afraid that I'm suspicious that you are taking many of them from creationist sites as being recommended for use to cast doubt on ToE.

There is no way that Bruce Lahn is talking about anything other than evolution by a process of natural selection in this article. He is discovering genetic mechanisms to prove what science incidentally has been predicting for many years, that the human brain developed so fast by doing so in conjunction with the increasingly rapid development of society. they drive each other on.(There's that prediction thing again tx.)

The article explains it better than I can. Try reading it.



Comment #186617 by txpiper


You'll just have to consider that as politeness on my part. If you want to post a suitable forum or thread to discuss theology in, I'll be happy to do so. But not here. Put yourself in my place. Some people would immediately be turned off if not outraged if I started quoting Bible verses here.


I would have thought that someone as articulate as you could easily describe his religious philosophy without too much biblical quoting. Many theists have debated their religious beliefs on this site, some over long periods and are welcome. They just have to be prepared to answer some penetrating questions, that's all.
Are you sure that what is written above should not read "Put yourself in my place. Some people would immediately start laughing their arses off if I started saying what I really believed in."

Now if that isn't truly your position tx start answering some questions about how you think god did it and what you think that the evidence for this is.

Regards,
Alan.

Edited for clarity.

Other Comments by alan baylis

6634. Comment #186918 by keith on May 31, 2008 at 7:39 pm

 avatartxpiper,
The fossil record, in real terms, is a relatively small amount of data...

No, it isn't. We have lots and lots of fossils. And what does 'real terms' actually mean here? Compared to things that haven't fossilized? That much I will grant you, but only if you grant me that that is obviously going to be the case.
...data that can be interpreted to mean what someone wants it to mean.

No. Some things cry out to be interpreted in certain ways. I once took an English Lit. course at an adult education centre and one older man insisted on interpreting every book we read from a religious angle, that is, until the teacher finally asked him to point to the part in the text that showed that Wuthering Heights is in fact all about God and Jesus Christ and not about Cathy and Heathcliff. Simply because fossils (and books) are open to interpretation, does not then mean that you can interpret them however you like. Not being reduced to one narrow 'reading' does not immediately mean that things can mean what you want them to mean.

In my opinion, it [the fossil record] is much more anomalous for evolutionary theory than it is for my point of view.

You can't possibly mean this. Do you mean to say that the fossil record better supports a biblical reading of creation than an evolutionary one? That, I very much doubt. Surely almost any fossil rather counts against a biblical explanation of creation. Your not seriously going to mark up fossils as a plus for your side, are you?
I find it interesting that evolutionary advocates display amazing religious qualities but prefer to perceive themselves as being parked in the supposed cool objectivity of science. This is a gross illusion in my opinion. The reality is that if you compare evolution(ism) to the catholic church or islam, you can find a point for point correlation for just about everything but hymns.

Hmm, I challenge you to do so. Then again, the old man from my Lit. Crit. course comes to mind so maybe best not to. Suffice it to say, that if you feel that a belief in transubstantiation and a belief in evolution are both faith based claims of the same order, then we'll just have to disagree on this point.

In truth, I think this is once again the problem of an inability to judge likelihood. Just as the act of interpreting doesn't mean that things can mean what you want them to mean (Heathcliff simply isn't meant to be God, no matter how you spin it), just because neither science nor religious' claims can be made with 100% certainty does not then mean that both claims are equally likely, or that both are faith-based. I find it odd that someone who has worked in the buying and selling of Futures, a job where probabilty assessment is such a large feature, can't see this. Of course, there is a sliding scale that goes from absolute proof at the top to faith with no evidence at the bottom and in between are varying degrees of certainty. If you wish to put scientific evidence on the same plain as virgin births, that's up to you, but I'm not sure that you should feel good about yourself for doing so.

Incidentally, I suspect that the old man in the Lit. class wondered why Heathcliff can stand as a symbol for the poor and repressed in some readings but can't stand as a symbol for God in his. I'm sure he felt victimised. There is really nothing we could have said to him to explain the difference, just as I can't explain to you why fossils count as evidence but tales of carpenters being re-born 2000 years ago don't. You either see the difference or you don't.
the most dramatic examples of adaptation are still almost completely confined to species. The concept does not transfer to one vertebrate class changing into another. That idea is fantasy in my view.

This really is just a failure of imagination and nothing more. It is the old canard that evolution can happen within a species but it can't make two species from where there were previously only one.

Okay, imagine. Your family and my family are the only people left on Earth. We belong to the same species. I now decide to take my family off to Africa for a ten million-year vacation. During this time hundreds of thousands [please, someone correct me if I'm wrong] of copying errors will happen in both our families genomes. Some will be bad errors and will not be selected (e.g. a third leg), others will be neutral and could either stay or go (slanting eyes?) and others will be beneficial and will take off like a house on fire (darker skin in Africa).

Of course, our families didn't even start off with exactly the same genes and over time these differences will become even more pronounced. This, for obvious statistical reasons, is especially true for smaller groups.

After millions of years, especially if our environments are different (perhaps you will have since emigrated to Lappland), enough differences should now have accrued for both (now large) families to look totally different and for the idea of sex between us to not even enter our heads. Even if it does, if the differences between our genomes are important enough (e.g. different numbers of chromosomes), then we probably won't be able to interbreed and can then be officially classed as two separate species. Bingo! And if you continue this branching you will soon end up with different families, classes, orders etc. (Please feel free to correct me anyone. Evolution is not my specialist subject.)
You use phrases like "selection pressure", which is a completely vaporous idea.

Perhaps to you, not to me. I can well imagine an environment in which being fast will count for a lot, and another environment in which being camouflaged is more useful. The animals who are lucky enough to be born with these traits stand more chance of surviving and passing on their genes. What's vaporous about this?
You call on it [selection] when you need the sequential mutations that obviously won't occur accidentally.

Mutations occur accidentally. Good ones accumulate over time, non-accidentally.
let's say for talking purposes, that the pyramids are 5000 years old. What do you think they will look like in 10,000 years? 50,000? 200,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000? 50,000,000? I understand that this taxes the human imagination, but really, what do you think the objects on the plains of Giza, or even the plains themselves, will look like after the passage of these amounts of time?

I suspect you're wheeling this on, not as an exercise in imagining long time scales, but as a visual representation of your theory that things started in perfection and are spiralling into degradation.

So, to answer your question (and give you the answer you want), I think that the pyramids in 50 million years will be so much dust blowing around the Sahara. However, I hope you don't want to extrapolate from this that everything is slowly decaying. If this were the case, a baby would always be slightly less healthy than its mother and after millions of years the human race would consist of physical and mental wrecks. This is not the case. This is because although bodies wear out and decay, the genetic code, which is a digital code, doesn't. This is why boys born today are as big and strong as Adam and girls are as sexy and feisty as Eve. That is, if we assume that they lived only 6,000 years ago. In reality Adam was almost certainly short and hairy and Eve probably wouldn't have found him attractive, even if they had ever met.

To finish, you seem like an intelligent person and you write well. I think its great that you have turned your sceptical attention to evolution. However, aren't you being rather selective in how you use you faculties? Could you honestly put your hand on your heart and say you had scrutinized your religious beliefs with the same zeal that you have shown here in questioning evolution? I genuinely believe that most atheists can claim exactly that, for the simple reason that, unlike Christopher Hitchens, most of us would quite like to live forever and meet our friends and family in some better world. The fact that we can't believe in such nonsense is testament to our objectivity and conversely, is the real reason why you should be wary of your own views.

So, how about swivelling the gun around and aiming both your scepticism and your intelligence at religion for a while and see what you come up with?

Other Comments by keith

6635. Comment #186919 by steveroot on May 31, 2008 at 7:58 pm

 avatar
6633. Comment #186859 by alan baylis on May 31, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Could you suggest any mechanisms to show how this came about?

Surely you've heard of "The Fall"?
:-)
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

6636. Comment #186975 by alan baylis on June 1, 2008 at 2:17 am

Comment #186919 by steveroot

Surely you've heard of "The Fall"?
:-)


I sure have. It follows the summer. ;-)

Regards,
Alan.

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6637. Comment #187043 by Mark Smith on June 1, 2008 at 7:50 am

txpiper
The facts about mutations are in. I won't bother repeating them, but the ratio of neutral/deleterious mutations to the necessary helpful ones is exponentially lopsided. There is no way to hide from that, no matter whose numbers you choose to use.

There you go again, making a mathematical-sounding claim but without doing the maths. Biologists know that there a very large number of neutral/deleterious mutations and a comparitively much smaller number of helpful ones. They know that. They also know that there are nevertheless enough helpful ones to bring about tiny changes which add up to significant changes over time, such that the whole of the diversity of life is explained. They have written peer-reviewed paper after peer-reviewed paper to prove it. If you disagree, then actually do the maths to prove it. Alternatively, stop making the pseudo-scientific claims and say instead 'I just can't believe it'.

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6638. Comment #187173 by txpiper on June 1, 2008 at 12:01 pm

Quine,

That looks backwards to me. RT is a part of the known picture of the ways replicators keep going.

Partly as I understand it. It is a DNA repair mechanism whereby and RNA fix is reverse transmitted back to fix corrupted DNA. I only have a cursory understanding of the process, but it would be like having an original text file (DNA) and a transcribed copy of it (RNA). If the original were corrupted, the RT repair would be like copying a text string from the copy and pasting it back into the original as a patch.

But the most commonly mentioned RT activity is associated with retroviruses, RT being the vehicle whereby they attach their genome to the host DNA. The AIDS (and other rv's) do this by using reverse transcriptase enzymes. The much talked about drug AZT is used in hopes of inhibiting the function of the enzyme, and thus preventing the virus from corrupting the victim's DNA.

The RT Steele and others are researching is a different thing altogether. It is soma cells (those of the organism which will not be involved in reproduction) communicating information directly back to the DNA of the germ (reproductive) cells of a parent. The DNA of those cells reacts to this information so that the offspring are better prepared to contend with the environment than the parent was. To cut to the chase, it is an altogether Lamarckian process.

It this is what happens, which appears preliminarily to be the case, it completely dismantles conventional ideas about accidental mutations and all the goofy ideas about selection. It also presents a profound philosophical complication for evolution.

To "harden" ID arguments (something like hardening not knowing) would require the observation of something that can't happen, even with RT. The more we find of mechanisms used by nature, the less of a gap there is to be filled by this invisible, yet friendly, designer (who must not be named).

I disagree. You will never escape having to account for how those mechanisms and processes originated on an accidental basis.

Evolutionary theorists have their hands full in explaining how DNA, RNA, proteins and enzymes (most of which are proteins) ever formed in the first place. Worse than that, they have to talk how these things function without using the word "intelligence". If you have even a fundamental understanding of how the replication enzymes (particularly polymerase) work, this is not easy to do. An enzyme recognizing a nucleotide error, removing it and replacing it in a DNA segment is hardly what you can call a simple chemical reaction.

Soma to Germline Reverse Transcription grossly complicates this for evolutionary theory. You should be able to figure out why, but in a nutshell, it means that germ cell DNA is prepared to some degree, to respond to an external request for alteration. It also means that soma cells send signals to the germ cells in expectation of a reaction.

In other words, there is no accidental mutation or selection pressure involved.

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6639. Comment #187176 by MaxD on June 1, 2008 at 12:10 pm

 avatarTxpiper,
What is your degree in again? Oh yeah. Not biology, not molecular biology, not chemistry. So what do you know about molecular biology? I mean other than the junk you are fed from your creationist websites?

Oh yeah....
Nothing.

I must reiterate, you are not on to something. You, if you knew more than a few words like reverse transcription, you'd see that these the phenomena are not all that when viewed in conjuntion with the rest of biology. Engrossing, sure. But nothing in biology seems so improbable when you look at the rest of the biota. I know you think it does. But you have to admit you don't know what the hell you are talking about.
Just say as follows.
I believe in Jesus. This is my faith. Science doesn't back me up, or provide any evidence for the events of the gospels whatsoever. Its a faith issue. I hope it is true and am convicted in my heart that it is. It is how I live my life.
That is all you have, and if it works for you,then fine. But please stop the pretense that you have overturned all of biology with your pre-undergraduate level mistakes of biology.

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6640. Comment #187177 by Diacanu on June 1, 2008 at 12:11 pm

 avatarCreationists are obsessed with "accidental", "random", and "chance", I notice.

They need to be.
It's a philosophical thing.
Which admits their crap isn't science.


Evolutionary theorists have their hands full in explaining how DNA, RNA, proteins and enzymes (most of which are proteins) ever formed in the first place.


As has been pointed out to you endlessly, that's the feild of ambiogenesis.
I'm sure you'll ignore it again.


Worse than that, they have to talk how these things function without using the word "intelligence".


Where did the "intelligence", come from?

So, do you want to discuss, Noah's Ark, the anti-christ, and the nature of the so-called designer yet?

Surely you have the intellectual vigor to justify your literal belief in your favorite fairy tales?

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6641. Comment #187181 by Diacanu on June 1, 2008 at 12:19 pm

 avatarMaxD-


Txpiper,
What is your degree in again?


He's an engineer.
Of toy trains.
:P

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6642. Comment #187203 by MaxD on June 1, 2008 at 1:27 pm

 avatarTxpiper said an obtuse thing when his fingers managed this:
Worse than that, they have to talk how these things function without using the word "intelligence


We don't need to talk about intelligence because there is no indication that anything other than natural processes are involved. You are going to have to show, with evidence, not your biologically illiterate ramblings and incredulity of an entire successful field of science.

Simply saying, as you do, "Golly-gee I don't see how cichlid biology is at all helpful to understanding human biology" (or any other such simple minded formulation) won't do the trick.

Allow me to submit to you Txpiper that you have come and your faith is still intact. You have failed to legitamately engage anyone here and that you would perhaps have more fun talking about the intelligent designer on one of those websites. You are not actually interested in listening to anyone here regardless of what they have to say, and you are not honestly engaged in this discussion.

Please go read about real biology, go take some classes without your ideology looking over your shoulder, I mean openly learn the subject. Then you will have a better idea what it is you are talking about.

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6643. Comment #187219 by txpiper on June 1, 2008 at 2:02 pm

MaxD,

I mean other than the junk you are fed from your creationist websites?


Actually, I did not find out about Edward Steele's research from a creationist website. I'm aware of several of those, but don't really spend much time at any of them. Using the search engines on the ones I looked at turned up no references to him or his work. But if you know of any that have reviewed what he is doing, please pass them along.

You can look at some known animal adaptations to assess whether or not Steele's theories are plausible, and evaluate those adaptations against the things you believe as well.

Animal populations that have been isolated in caves would be a good starting point. There are crawfish, shrimp, insects, spiders, salamanders and fish that have all lost their sight and pigment in their environments.

According to what you believe, the darkness would probably amount to selective pressure. (I can buy the pressure part, but not the attachment to selection). You can't really say, according to conventional theory, that this pressure causes mutations. At best, it can only vigorously select them if they happen, right? So let's put Tinkerbell in the corner and consider the mutations.

I'm sure you are still quite confident in the idea of beneficial mutations helping out on an accidental basis. This would mean that at least six different fauna representations in cave environments all happen to have accidental replication error sequences in the sight and pigment genes of their DNA. These mutations would have to:

-occur in a sex cell which would just happen to be involved in fertilization
-occur in just the right gene region
-occur in such a way as to code for a protein which would eventually turn unnecessary sight and pigmentation functions off

But the real kicker here, is that you have this extremely improbable sequence of of lucky events happening in most any species that winds up isolated in a lightless environment. Obvioulsy, the odds are preposterously stacked against this.

So I guess my question for you would be this:

Does getting a degree in microbiology cause people to believe ridiculous things, or are some of the people who get those degrees just possessed with gullibility that they retain after they graduate?

We don't need to talk about intelligence because there is no indication that anything other than natural processes are involved.


Right. That is about as deep as your nothing-but-declaration counterpoints ever go. You seem more interested in bitching about things that you don't like hearing than dealing with anything on any kind of technical basis.

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6644. Comment #187220 by fizhburn on June 1, 2008 at 2:06 pm

 avatarA while ago, txpiper quote mined:
fizhburn,
you have an incorrect, too-narrow understanding of the natural selection process, and focus too much on mutation proper.

Selection is not a discriminating process or a mysterious, complicated force. It is not a partner with mutations. It is organisms dying in an environment that they cannot survive in. That's it. All the rest of it is hype.

LOL. Later, you said
None of these of course. I disagree with the idea that a copying infidelity is going to result in the formation of novel genetic information.
Without going into the combinatorics, it should be easy to grasp that copying infidelity across large numbers of codons plus changes in proteins coded for due to different amino acid sequences (due to copying infidelity) equals "novel genetic information." In a wider scope, notice that variations across population in phenotype track variation in genotype, and given recombination it's easy for "novel genetic information" (in a slightly different sense) to appear: a gene sequence never previously produced.

I don't really need to argue in favor of speciation, since other posters have already provided examples of experimental confirmation for various transitions, for example from single-celled to multi-cel