




















Lying for Jesus?Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
6602. Comment #186444 by The Reverend Dark on May 30, 2008 at 9:44 am
What you are saying here is that selection will make a decision on behalf of the progeny to the detriment of the individual organism, if necessary.
The biggest impression I was left with how much sedimentary material lies on top of the Genesis rock. Some time back I read an article that said that there are over 30 million cubic miles of sediments on the exposed land masses of the earth (I have seen much larger numbers). That would be enough to cover every continent with sedimentary rock well over a half mile deep from coast to coast. What this means in real terms, is that no matter who is saying what about the fossil record, the fact is that nobody knows much of anything about what is in the rock layers. Thousands of geologists working full time for centuries could only scratch the surface. Being several thousand feet below the canyon rim really drove home what an awesome thing the flood was. The helicopter ride down to the river was almost worth the money by itself.
If you move to microbiology, there is absolutely nothing that supports evolution. To think that anything observed at that level, where incomprehensible organization and complexity is the norm, came to exist by accident, takes fabulous faith.
6603. Comment #186468 by Dr Benway on May 30, 2008 at 10:18 am
txpiper: I believe things are in descent having begun in perfection. Evolution is trying to say that organisms have ascended to where they are now from a single cell by way of mutations. I believe living organisms are in a downward spiral.Biologists may speak of the ascent of man or other species. But this is poetry. There is no ascent or descent per se. There is simply a sea of replicators replicating.
6604. Comment #186480 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 10:45 am
But they do murder their brothers
6605. Comment #186481 by Quine on May 30, 2008 at 10:46 am
I am quite enjoying watching txpipers regular excursions into what people like him must think of as the devils lair.
6606. Comment #186482 by Diacanu on May 30, 2008 at 10:48 am
6607. Comment #186494 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 11:12 am
6608. Comment #186498 by Quine on May 30, 2008 at 11:18 am
6609. Comment #186505 by MaxD on May 30, 2008 at 12:18 pm
6610. Comment #186512 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 1:12 pm
6611. Comment #186521 by alan baylis on May 30, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Comment #186481 by QuineI suspect this works both ways, in that, there are readers from his side, who are smarter than a fifth grader, sitting at home learning that so much of their world view just doesn't stand up.
6612. Comment #186522 by MaxD on May 30, 2008 at 1:37 pm
6613. Comment #186529 by righton on May 30, 2008 at 2:00 pm
philrimmer6614. Comment #186538 by phil rimmer on May 30, 2008 at 2:33 pm
Who is that?
6615. Comment #186541 by Mark Smith on May 30, 2008 at 2:40 pm
txpiperWhat you are saying here is that selection will make a decision on behalf of the progeny to the detriment of the individual organism, if necessary.
6616. Comment #186542 by Diacanu on May 30, 2008 at 2:53 pm
6617. Comment #186578 by riandouglas on May 30, 2008 at 5:27 pm
txpiper: I believe things are in descent having begun in perfection. Evolution is trying to say that organisms have ascended to where they are now from a single cell by way of mutations. I believe living organisms are in a downward spiral.
6618. Comment #186617 by txpiper on May 30, 2008 at 9:09 pm
GordonYKWong,Then I do wish Prof. Steele success in furthering his research.
Just curious txpiper, is that personal incredulity or an educated hunch? To me you seem well versed in the field (when compared to a lay person like me).
I'd be curious to know if you have ever asked yourself the same question of us i.e. why otherwise intelligent human beings believe that evolution can explain the abundance of life around us.
It's clear to me why a species capable of reflecting on its own mortality would grasp at anything that looked remotely like it could remedy this unpleasant fact. What isn't so clear to me is why, other than being motivated by a respect for the evidence, other members of that same species should seem so keen to hammer home the last nail into its own coffin.
What are your thoughts on this?
I'd like to know if you would concede the point that a group that hasn't yet come to terms with its own mortality is more liable to fudge the facts than one that has. In short, wouldn't you be more inclined to listen to someone arguing against his own interests than someone arguing for them?
I am quite enjoying watching txpipers regular excursions into what people like him must think of as the devils lair.
It probably has the effect of keeping the regulars on their metal and of honing their explanatory skills, IMHO. All the while it is helping the less learned of us to understand evolution better.
I do think that tx is starting to turn himself inside out somewhat in trying to scrape up yet more perceived anomalies to have explained to him. He doesn't seem to understand that in reality he is mostly just asking the same basic couple of questions or so, but in many different ways
Although the folks here have answered all his questions in an honest and forthright manner, he refuses to answer any quite reasonable questions about his religious beliefs. This is blatantly dishonest of him.
The fact that you or anyone else cannot imagine some sequence of events is no argument at all.
txpiper - I would ask you this: what is in it for evolutionary biologists to maintain the theory if it is wrong? The religious have a whole deep faith to defend
6619. Comment #186622 by Diacanu on May 30, 2008 at 9:26 pm
Then I do wish Prof. Steele success in furthering his research.
I do as well,
Well wouldn't I be rude to dismantle evolution and offer nothing sane to believe in?
I believe things are in descent having begun in perfection. Evolution is trying to say that organisms have ascended to where they are now from a single cell by way of mutations. I believe living organisms are in a downward spiral.
6620. Comment #186624 by Diacanu on May 30, 2008 at 9:32 pm
I don't believe that...
6621. Comment #186646 by Dr Benway on May 30, 2008 at 10:43 pm
txpiper: But its your theory Doc. If you can't propose a reasonable developmental sequence...In your mother's womb there was a time when your liver was a single cell. It gradually developed into something more complex.
6622. Comment #186709 by keith on May 31, 2008 at 7:02 am
6623. Comment #186730 by The Reverend Dark on May 31, 2008 at 8:20 am
Incredulity based on odds. I learned some severe lessons about probabilities trading futures. Only three things can happen. A market will trade up, trade down or stay flat. It is surprising how often one can be wrong just deciding which of the three is going to happen. I wouldn't be so rude as to name names, but it is easy to spot the folks here who would be getting margin calls after about two days.
I understand your question, but to concede that point, I would have to accept that assumptions about mortality are correct. Death is hardly arguable, but I don't equate death with the termination of consciousness. I don't believe that concepts like justice, which are profoundly ingrained in our software, are accidental productions either.
I once heard a chemical process engineer say that some Japanese company set out to design a unit that would duplicate the function of the human liver, but they gave up when they realized how phenomenally complex and costly such an undertaking would be. It really is an unbelievably sophisticated organ. I don't believe that DNA replication errors could produce the blood plumbing for something like that, much less the organ itself.
If you think evolutionary biologists are faith-free, you are not reading their papers with a critical eye. I found over a dozen equivocations in the mammal dentition quote Calilasseia posted above which ended with completely inconclusive statements. Accepting evolutionary constructs requires fabulous faith.
6624. Comment #186809 by Quine on May 31, 2008 at 10:39 am
While I believe that natural selection has undergone absurd personification, the reality of adaptive development by way of RT feedback into germ cells is going to, in my view, harden the ID arguments.
6625. Comment #186836 by txpiper on May 31, 2008 at 11:39 am
Keith,Of course, we could simply say that the Lord God made all of us, humans and animals alike, just as we are now, but then you would have the problem of the fossil record, which dates back hundreds of millions of years.
(I sometimes get a bit lost about precisely what the problem for religious people is).
I think perhaps now might be the time for you to tell us whether you believe that evolution is an invented phenomenon, or just a process that can explain one or two things in the natural world but not everything.
In the same way that this add-on bit is unnecessary, if you are willing to concede that evolution can make cheetahs fast and monkeys clever, why don't you think that with an extra push it could make humans especially clever?
And if it's all just a matter of degree, then all this really boils down to is that you haven't been able to imagine what a few billion years really feels like. Hundreds of years, yes, maybe even thousands, but not billions. Of course, neither can Richard Dawkins nor anyone else imagine what billions of years feels like. However, the important difference between you and them is that for them, being able or not being able to personally imagine something is not the ultimate touchstone of whether or not it is true.
So tell us, is evolution a fiction or is it just very weak? Is this a case of, sure, evolution can make rhinoceros horns but it can't make a human brain? If we get can that clear and it turns out that you do believe in some form of evolution, then maybe we can all save our breath and stop putting forward evidence for its existence
6626. Comment #186838 by AllanW on May 31, 2008 at 11:45 am
6627. Comment #186859 by alan baylis on May 31, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Comment #186836 by txpiperYou have accidental, random DNA replication errors and the environment that organisms live in to work with, and very little else.
I believe things are in descent having begun in perfection
6628. Comment #186862 by Diacanu on May 31, 2008 at 1:37 pm
Oh that's right. You don't have any. Only incredulity and biblical creation.
6629. Comment #186866 by Diacanu on May 31, 2008 at 1:50 pm
6630. Comment #186868 by Diacanu on May 31, 2008 at 2:01 pm
6631. Comment #186871 by Quine on May 31, 2008 at 2:14 pm
All they have in the end is "I WANT to believe it, leave me alone!".
6632. Comment #186872 by Diacanu on May 31, 2008 at 2:20 pm
6633. Comment #186899 by alan baylis on May 31, 2008 at 5:22 pm
Txpiper,
You'll just have to consider that as politeness on my part. If you want to post a suitable forum or thread to discuss theology in, I'll be happy to do so. But not here. Put yourself in my place. Some people would immediately be turned off if not outraged if I started quoting Bible verses here.
6634. Comment #186918 by keith on May 31, 2008 at 7:39 pm
The fossil record, in real terms, is a relatively small amount of data...
...data that can be interpreted to mean what someone wants it to mean.
In my opinion, it [the fossil record] is much more anomalous for evolutionary theory than it is for my point of view.
I find it interesting that evolutionary advocates display amazing religious qualities but prefer to perceive themselves as being parked in the supposed cool objectivity of science. This is a gross illusion in my opinion. The reality is that if you compare evolution(ism) to the catholic church or islam, you can find a point for point correlation for just about everything but hymns.
the most dramatic examples of adaptation are still almost completely confined to species. The concept does not transfer to one vertebrate class changing into another. That idea is fantasy in my view.
You use phrases like "selection pressure", which is a completely vaporous idea.
You call on it [selection] when you need the sequential mutations that obviously won't occur accidentally.
let's say for talking purposes, that the pyramids are 5000 years old. What do you think they will look like in 10,000 years? 50,000? 200,000? 1,000,000? 10,000,000? 50,000,000? I understand that this taxes the human imagination, but really, what do you think the objects on the plains of Giza, or even the plains themselves, will look like after the passage of these amounts of time?
6635. Comment #186919 by steveroot on May 31, 2008 at 7:58 pm
6633. Comment #186859 by alan baylis on May 31, 2008 at 1:14 pm
Could you suggest any mechanisms to show how this came about?
6636. Comment #186975 by alan baylis on June 1, 2008 at 2:17 am
Comment #186919 by steverootSurely you've heard of "The Fall"?
:-)
6637. Comment #187043 by Mark Smith on June 1, 2008 at 7:50 am
txpiperThe facts about mutations are in. I won't bother repeating them, but the ratio of neutral/deleterious mutations to the necessary helpful ones is exponentially lopsided. There is no way to hide from that, no matter whose numbers you choose to use.
6638. Comment #187173 by txpiper on June 1, 2008 at 12:01 pm
Quine,That looks backwards to me. RT is a part of the known picture of the ways replicators keep going.
To "harden" ID arguments (something like hardening not knowing) would require the observation of something that can't happen, even with RT. The more we find of mechanisms used by nature, the less of a gap there is to be filled by this invisible, yet friendly, designer (who must not be named).
6639. Comment #187176 by MaxD on June 1, 2008 at 12:10 pm
6640. Comment #187177 by Diacanu on June 1, 2008 at 12:11 pm
Evolutionary theorists have their hands full in explaining how DNA, RNA, proteins and enzymes (most of which are proteins) ever formed in the first place.
Worse than that, they have to talk how these things function without using the word "intelligence".
6641. Comment #187181 by Diacanu on June 1, 2008 at 12:19 pm
Txpiper,
What is your degree in again?
6642. Comment #187203 by MaxD on June 1, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Worse than that, they have to talk how these things function without using the word "intelligence
6643. Comment #187219 by txpiper on June 1, 2008 at 2:02 pm
MaxD,I mean other than the junk you are fed from your creationist websites?
We don't need to talk about intelligence because there is no indication that anything other than natural processes are involved.
6644. Comment #187220 by fizhburn on June 1, 2008 at 2:06 pm
fizhburn,you have an incorrect, too-narrow understanding of the natural selection process, and focus too much on mutation proper.
Selection is not a discriminating process or a mysterious, complicated force. It is not a partner with mutations. It is organisms dying in an environment that they cannot survive in. That's it. All the rest of it is hype.
None of these of course. I disagree with the idea that a copying infidelity is going to result in the formation of novel genetic information.Without going into the combinatorics, it should be easy to grasp that copying infidelity across large numbers of codons plus changes in proteins coded for due to different amino acid sequences (due to copying infidelity) equals "novel genetic information." In a wider scope, notice that variations across population in phenotype track variation in genotype, and given recombination it's easy for "novel genetic information" (in a slightly different sense) to appear: a gene sequence never previously produced.
6601. Comment #186443 by Elli on May 30, 2008 at 9:42 am
an organism that does not produce viable offspring will not pass on its genes, no matter how long it lives.
It is not survival that matters - it is survival of its offspring.
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