Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 7051 - 7100 of 9336 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

7051. Comment #192710 by ReceivedTheGift on June 13, 2008 at 11:45 pm

Goldy

Your understanding of the separation of church and state is mistaken. It was to keep the state out of the church, not the church out of the state.

Quine

No. This tells me that the chimps and humans had the same designer.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7052. Comment #192711 by epeeist on June 13, 2008 at 11:45 pm

 avatarComment #192631 by ReceivedTheGift
Their bitterness and frustration is so apparent, it's if they have some deep rooted issues going on, besides the lack of confidence in their beliefs.
To follow in the honourable steps of Shayne Dark and Diacanu.

I am fucking sick of stupid, sanctimonious cunts telling me that I am bitter (are you listening David Robertson) because I haven't found Jesus. You know fuck all about me, so take your unwanted cloying humility and obsequiousness elsewhere.

If you want to believe that a cosmic Jewish zombie who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh and
telepathically tell him you accept him as your master, so he can remove an evil force from your soul that is present in all humans because a woman made from a rib was convinced by a talking snake to eat from a magical tree and thereby pissing off an invisible wizard who lives in the sky then fine.

Just don't bring such unsubstantiated shite here.

Other Comments by epeeist

7053. Comment #192712 by Goldy on June 13, 2008 at 11:46 pm

Why would praying for you be offensive?

Because I don't ask for it, I never asked for it and I don't want someone do do it for me. If America (you must be American) became Muslim how would you feel? You don't ask for Islam, but if it is imposed on you, even for "your own good", how would you feel.
I do not know you, I will never meet you, I don't think the same as you. I would like you to respect me for who I am and not impose your views on me. As far as you are concerned, I am damned to an eternity of hellfire and damnation - what are your prayers, however unwanted, going to help me.
Give money to a good cause if you want to help me.

Other Comments by Goldy

7054. Comment #192714 by Diacanu on June 13, 2008 at 11:47 pm

 avatarReceivedTheGift-

I'm not offended by you praying at me.

You may as well put a bone in your nose, and wave a ju-ju stick at me.

Doesn't bother me.

What DOES irk me is your air of incincerity and unearned self-righteousness.

That part of it you can kindly go shove up your fudgey assholio.
Sideways.

Other Comments by Diacanu

7055. Comment #192715 by ReceivedTheGift on June 13, 2008 at 11:48 pm

Goldy

Do you believe our society is progressively getting more and more degregated?

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7056. Comment #192716 by Goldy on June 13, 2008 at 11:49 pm

Your understanding of the separation of church and state is mistaken. It was to keep the state out of the church, not the church out of the state.

To have an Englishman telling you you are wrong is surely the height of embarrassment!

Other Comments by Goldy

7057. Comment #192717 by Goldy on June 13, 2008 at 11:50 pm

Do you believe our society is progressively getting more and more degregated?
Answer my question first

Other Comments by Goldy

7058. Comment #192718 by ReceivedTheGift on June 13, 2008 at 11:52 pm

Diacanu

What makes you think that I believe myself to be so righteous?

Goldy

I would have no problem with anyone praying for me. How is praying for someone impossing on them?

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7059. Comment #192719 by Philip1978 on June 13, 2008 at 11:53 pm

 avatarReceived

This may sound like I attacking you but I promise I have no bad feelings towards your good self when I type the following:

I renounce the Holy Ghost, Jesus and God, may they pleasure themselves with a prize winning leek for all I care.


Right, thats one less atheist you have to pray for and I will warrant Jesus does not love me any more.

Thing is I really cannot stand it when people say they are going to pray for me, what good can possibly come of it other than to make you feel fuzzy?

Prayer does not work, I can absolutely promise you it is a waste of time - go and say the same thing to a milk bottle and you will get the same response back.

It all seems so disingenuous and ultimately cruel to me, why bother?

I know some believers whose prayers didn't get answered and they have then started to think they have offended their god and actually start getting paranoid that he is punishing them only they don't know what it is because God will not tell them. So they mentally beat themselves up over nothing all and this is how a loving father treats his kids?

My dad is way better than any god, if I need his help he, being the kind and caring man that he is, will do all he can to help me through it. I would do the same and more for that man because he has earned it. THAT is a loving father, not some invisible figment of the imagination who demands your subservience or he will send you to a fiery torment for eternity to punish you for your sins.

Hmmm love me or burn, pray to me but the answers will be Yes, No, Maybe and I will make it as difficult as possible for you and the other 6.5 Billion others on the planet to know what my answer is. What a loving Dad!


I hope you understand I am attacking the religion here, I am attacking the stupid and dangerous ideas that are a result of following the rules of a being whose mind you CANNOT know.

I am appalled at what religion does to people, I have seen it first hand and it is not pretty, so when I attack it it is because I care about what is happening. I do not hate you for being a Christian, I despise religion for what it does to people, some very good people I know have suffered greatly for it and that is something I will not stand by and not question it.


Apologies for the minor essay :)


Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

7060. Comment #192720 by Quine on June 13, 2008 at 11:54 pm

 avatarRtG, did you miss the part about the evidence coming from retroviral inclusions, not supposed "design"?

Other Comments by Quine

7061. Comment #192721 by Goldy on June 13, 2008 at 11:56 pm

As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.[25]

The Treaty of Tripoli.
There is no religion in the USA - just the state. The State guarantees the freedom of religion, any religion, as long as it does not interfere with the rulings of the state.
That, to me, is the mosy beautiful thing I can think of - that is why I am an Americanophile (horrible word, but conveys my feelings). You, blokey that got touched in the head, anger me for the way you wish to kill this.
Received the gift, eh? Was it a gift you were able to handle?

Other Comments by Goldy

7062. Comment #192722 by epeeist on June 13, 2008 at 11:56 pm

 avatarComment #192663 by phasmagigas
RTG has done the unholy three in one post:

insists evolution is all rather silly
then throws scripture
then prays for us.

it usually takes several posts to get that far but at the very least this person has shown in one post what a busy body they are.
Yes, just waiting for the last one. Getting his god to damn us to eternal torture.

Why is it that as soon as you become religious your vocabulary and grammar go completely to pot. "Degredated", what does that mean?

Other Comments by epeeist

7063. Comment #192723 by ReceivedTheGift on June 13, 2008 at 11:58 pm

Goldy

Most idols are either celebrities or sports athletes. Since all humans are sinful, there is no human idol that can exemplify what a idol should fulfil. It usually leads to this secular humanistic materialistic society which has engulfed our nation.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7064. Comment #192724 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:00 am

I would have no problem with anyone praying for me. How is praying for someone impossing on them?

It is rape. You would have no problem because you are already infected. I do not want your prayers. As a religious person, you should understand that.
BTW, only 1 "s" in imposing.
I state again, I want no prayers for me. If you like sex, you probably would like someone forcing themselves on you. If you are particular about sex, that forcing would be rape.

Other Comments by Goldy

7065. Comment #192725 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:04 am

epeeist

How can I get God to damn you to eternal torture? This is out of my control. Only you have the free will to make this choice. That is why all I can do is prayer for you. I wish no one to eternal torture.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7066. Comment #192727 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:05 am

Since all humans are sinful

I am a human and I have no sin.
It usually leads to this secular humanistic materialistic society which has engulfed our nation.
Your nation is engulfed in religious fervour. See how religion envelopes every aspect of your life. Religion is important in the way you elect presidents and it encroaches in the way you teach science. Don't give me the secular crap.
Most idols are either celebrities or sports athletes

And Jesus was what then? I assume he was but a man, like the celebrity and sport athlete - none of whom I look up to.

Other Comments by Goldy

7067. Comment #192728 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:07 am

How can I get God to damn you to eternal torture?
If there is no way you can influence your god, then prayer will not help. So stop praying.

Other Comments by Goldy

7068. Comment #192729 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:10 am

Goldy

You claim to have no sin? So you have never lied or stolen? You don't need to answer. It's ridiculous.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7069. Comment #192730 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:12 am

Goldy

Why would I pray to God for your damnation?

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7070. Comment #192731 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:13 am

You claim to have no sin? So you have never lied or stolen? You don't need to answer. It's ridiculous.

No. Methinks if you can't claim that for yourself, don't force your belief on others.

Other Comments by Goldy

7071. Comment #192732 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:15 am

Why would I pray to God for your damnation?
Your prayer indicates I am in need of it - ergo, I am damned. You assume already I am damned. Your prayer is an assumption I have transgressed.
You, by the sounds of it, need to pray for yourself. A thief and a liar. That's bad, mate. Sucks to be you!

Other Comments by Goldy

7072. Comment #192733 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:16 am

Goldy

If you truly and sincerely believe that you are so righteous to have never sinned, then I will pray for you even more. This is a sad state of mind.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7073. Comment #192734 by epeeist on June 14, 2008 at 12:18 am

 avatarSome little while back I put together a series of lemmas which have been used by others on the site. I repeat them here for RTG's benefit.

RTG - before we can accept Jesus (a figure who may or may not have existed any way) you have to show that:
  1. The universe was created
  2. It was created by a deity
  3. This deity is interventionist, omnipotent, omniscient and omni-benevolent
  4. This deity is the one worshipped in one small area of one small planet circling an ordinary star in a galaxy of 400 billion stars in a universe of 150 billion galaxies
  5. That all of this is documented in the holy book of a tribe of cattle sacrificing primitives


Until you can at least make an attempt at this then there is no reason for us to take you seriously whatsoever.

Other Comments by epeeist

7074. Comment #192735 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:18 am

Sin. noun. Upsetting a fictional entity.

How could anybody who doesn't believe in God believe in sin?

Other Comments by Brian English

7075. Comment #192737 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:19 am

If you truly and sincerely believe that you are so righteous to have never sinned, then I will pray for you even more. This is a sad state of mind.
If you cannot imagine some one who has not "sinned", look to yourself first and try and sort your own life out. You sound to me a most dodgy character. Do not tar me with your brush. And do not pray for me - even if I believed, you do not sound like the sort I would expect God to listen to.

Other Comments by Goldy

7076. Comment #192738 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:20 am

Goldy

Yes, I can't pick and choose what to believe from the Bible. So, Jesus is the light and the way. Without accepting him you are damned to hell for eternity. That's not my opinion. That's the word of God. I pray that all people will come to know Jesus and be saved to eternal life through his grace.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7077. Comment #192739 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:21 am

Brian
How could anybody who doesn't believe in God believe in sin?
Having an athiest father who taught me that everythig I do is a consequence of me and that there is no forgiveness - how can an atheist sin?

Other Comments by Goldy

7078. Comment #192740 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:22 am

RTG stump up evidence that there is a God who fits the description of the bible and evidence that the bible is what he/she wants us to do before you spout your solipsistic waffle please.

Other Comments by Brian English

7079. Comment #192741 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:23 am

Goldy, sin is the religious person's trojan horse. The try to use it to storm morality. It's a load of bulldust. Sin has nothing to do with right and wrong and everything to do with being a sychophant of an imaginary tyrant.

Other Comments by Brian English

7080. Comment #192742 by Philip1978 on June 14, 2008 at 12:25 am

 avatarRecieved why are you so scared about what is going to happen to Goldy or anyone else who doesn't believe in your god?

Why do you have to pray for our salvation at all?

Will your god suddenly have a change of heart?

Why does god want to punish anyone?

It seems to me that your god has all the makings of a bully, a dictator and again why would I want to have anything to do with something like that?

Other Comments by Philip1978

7081. Comment #192743 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:25 am

epeeist

If you have any knowledge of history, there is quite a bit of secular historical accounts of Jesus. I assume you know this.

Can you prove the universe wasn't created? How then did it come about? I thought Evolution supporters shyed away from the creation/origins of life issue since they have no answers.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7082. Comment #192744 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:26 am

Yes, I can't pick and choose what to believe from the Bible. So, Jesus is the light and the way. Without accepting him you are damned to hell for eternity. That's not my opinion. That's the word of God. I pray that all people will come to know Jesus and be saved to eternal life through his grace.

Give me a break! Each and every quote you gave at your intorduction was a pick a choose! It is not the word of God - if it was you'd also be picking parts out of the Quran and I can see you don't have even the slightset inking what is in that book.
Worship of Jesus obviously doesn't "save" people - you admit to lying and stealing and you belive. I don't and I cannot conceive of doing the same. Jesus is obviously a salve to a guilty conscience - one I do not need.

Other Comments by Goldy

7083. Comment #192745 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:27 am

Can you prove the universe wasn't created? How then did it come about?

You dishonest git. You are the one proposing a creator, you show it.

Other Comments by Brian English

7084. Comment #192746 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:30 am

Can you prove the universe wasn't created? How then did it come about? I thought Evolution supporters shyed away from the creation/origins of life issue since they have no answers.

Can you prove (without recousrse to mythology) the opposite? We do not shy of answers - we call them throies and we open our ideas to public scrutiny. Theists like you say what you read is the only way and there is no other way.
Who then is the more humble?

Other Comments by Goldy

7085. Comment #192747 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:30 am

Goldy and Brian English

So you can choose to do anything and it would never be a sin? Sin has nothing to do with right and wrong? Please tell me that you are both pulling my leg.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7086. Comment #192748 by Diacanu on June 14, 2008 at 12:30 am

 avatarRecieved's mushy fluffball brand of passive-agressive glassy-eyed religious zombie-ism almost makes me long for the sneering white knuckled mania of Timothy Xavier Piper.

Almost.

Other Comments by Diacanu

7087. Comment #192749 by Philip1978 on June 14, 2008 at 12:31 am

 avatarReceivedTheGift

I have knowledge of history and until I find some amazing primary, 1st hand evidence for the existence of a human being Jesus Christ, powers are a different matter entirely, I will continue to accept the fact that Jesus never existed.

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

7088. Comment #192750 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:32 am

Sin has nothing to do with right and wrong?

If sin requires a God and there is no God, then there can be no sin. Get it?

Other Comments by Brian English

7089. Comment #192751 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:33 am

So you can choose to do anything and it would never be a sin?

I am saying I have not - you are saying I cannot have.
Do not confuse two different people.

Other Comments by Goldy

7090. Comment #192752 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:34 am

Sin:
1. transgression of divine law: the sin of Adam.

This type of sin doesn't exist.

Other Comments by Brian English

7091. Comment #192754 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:35 am

Why then don't you give me your thoughts on the origins of life. Without knowledge of the origin of life, how can one even consider understanding the process in which you claim life evolved?

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7092. Comment #192756 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:36 am

Why then don't you give me your thoughts on the origins of life. Without knowledge of the origin of life, how can one even consider understanding the process in which you claim life evolved?

What a load of rubbish. Evolution doesn't need to explain how the first life started. Do you need to understand all mathematics to do some calculus? Of course not.

Other Comments by Brian English

7093. Comment #192757 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:37 am

RtG -you answer Brian and me separately. As it is, I agree with Brian. But even in your sense, I have not sinned. How does that strike you? Fancy becoming an atheist?
No god - just you own conscience...

Other Comments by Goldy

7094. Comment #192758 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:37 am

Will you please answer epeeists points?

Other Comments by Brian English

7095. Comment #192759 by epeeist on June 14, 2008 at 12:38 am

 avatarComment #192743 by ReceivedTheGift

If you have any knowledge of history, there is quite a bit of secular historical accounts of Jesus. I assume you know this.
That would be a disputed claim in Josephus and...?
Can you prove the universe wasn't created? How then did it come about?
This isn't the way discourse works. You are claiming a specific deity. The burden of proof is upon you to demonstrate the basis of your claim. Evasion and the attempt to shift the burden simply shows how incredibly weak your case is.

Other Comments by epeeist

7096. Comment #192760 by Goldy on June 14, 2008 at 12:38 am

Why then don't you give me your thoughts on the origins of life. Without knowledge of the origin of life, how can one even consider understanding the process in which you claim life evolved?

Sorry, but what does this have to do with the subject we are discussing?

Other Comments by Goldy

7097. Comment #192762 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:40 am

Philip1978

There are plenty first hand accounts of Jesus and his miracles. Show me first hand accounts of any disputing of Jesus and his miracles.

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift

7098. Comment #192763 by Brian English on June 14, 2008 at 12:41 am

There are plenty first hand accounts of Jesus and his miracles.

Who by? Nobody who was contemporary wrote anything down. And if they did, you'd still have to reject it because you could never accept hearsay of such astounding claims as being more likely than the more mundane possibility that you are reading the scriblings of ignorant people who don't understand a thing about how the world works or propaganda.

Other Comments by Brian English

7099. Comment #192764 by epeeist on June 14, 2008 at 12:42 am

 avatarComment #192762 by ReceivedTheGift

There are plenty first hand accounts of Jesus and his miracles. Show me first hand accounts of any disputing of Jesus and his miracles.
You need to name some names and point us to some documents.

The gospels were written decades after the supposed Jesus lived by followers of his cult, none of whom had ever met him. Not first hand and hardly unbiased.

Other Comments by epeeist

7100. Comment #192765 by ReceivedTheGift on June 14, 2008 at 12:44 am

Brian English

I did answer epeeists points. The origins of life does not matter in regards to Evolution? What then is your beginning point of Evolution?

Other Comments by ReceivedTheGift
Reload Comments | Back to Top


Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password: