Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure — that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 901 - 950 of 9025 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

901. Comment #158876 by Peacebeuponme on April 11, 2008 at 6:21 am

D I Ogenes.

I'm tired of this now.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

902. Comment #158878 by Philip1978 on April 11, 2008 at 6:24 am

 avatarSteve,

I can take my ale better than that! I start forgetting after about 8 pints when the women start looking better!

When at uni I used to finish lectures at about 6 p.m and have to race back home, leave my room in a mess, charge out and drink too much. A couple of times I woke up in the morning after a rather heavy night on the tiles to discover not only could I not remember the night out I had cleaned my room, even hoovered it the second time. I was really freaked out, I had folded all my clothes, dusted - everything! :)


Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

903. Comment #158887 by MaxD on April 11, 2008 at 6:31 am

 avatarI don't know that DIOgenes is really all that amusing. Clearly he/she/it seems to be here to deliberately hurt feelings with all these attempts to kick over sacred cows. Sadly there are no sacred cows to kick over here. Its one of the reasons I think it may well be Richard Morgan. It is the kind of petty thing I link with his earlier behavior this week. Storming off, deleting almost all of his posts, lurking which he was definately doing. DIOgenes says things that seem positively designed to hurt feeling. This online entity isn't offerign much in the way of proof or argument. Just relentless drivel.

Other Comments by MaxD

904. Comment #158888 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:31 am

 avatar
I start forgetting after about 8 pints when the women start looking better!


You sure that was a woman?

A couple of times I woke up in the morning after a rather heavy night on the tiles to discover not only could I not remember the night out I had cleaned my room, even hoovered it the second time. I was really freaked out, I had folded all my clothes, dusted - everything! :)


Wow, it is like having a maid..Maybe I should take to heavy drinking too.. my room is kind of a mess..It badly needs some cleaning..:)

Other Comments by Bonzai

905. Comment #158896 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:41 am

 avatarMAXD

Its one of the reasons I think it may well be Richard Morgan. It is the kind of petty thing I link with his earlier behavior this week. Storming off, deleting almost all of his posts, lurking which he was definately doing


I agree, and it seems too much of a coincident that Diogenes happens to be the name of RM's old Mr.Hat.

Other Comments by Bonzai

906. Comment #158899 by Philip1978 on April 11, 2008 at 6:42 am

 avatarYou sure that was a woman?

Well, you could have a point, most of the Maidenhead women are quite manly in appearance!

Heavy drinking is expensive, if I were you I'd pay for the maid! :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

907. Comment #158902 by Quetzalcoatl on April 11, 2008 at 6:45 am

 avatarPhilip1978-

A couple of times I woke up in the morning after a rather heavy night on the tiles to discover not only could I not remember the night out I had cleaned my room, even hoovered it the second time. I was really freaked out, I had folded all my clothes, dusted - everything!


Rock. And. Roll.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

908. Comment #158904 by Polydactyl on April 11, 2008 at 6:48 am

Useful information on various teas ... and I really appreciate Goldy's reference to a recipe on lamb curry which sounds very enticing.
What a useful site this is.

(sidenote: I don't think 'our' Richard Morgan (whom I miss) would write 'mom'. And 'Diogenes' for a grouchy persona probably points to a similar age-group, not an identity.)

Other Comments by Polydactyl

909. Comment #158905 by Paula Kirby on April 11, 2008 at 6:49 am

 avatar
Philip1978: He sent a load of pigs off on a marathon run and made them jump off a cliff!
A load of someone else's pigs, no less!

He also killed a fig tree by cursing it for not bearing fruit out of season, which seems a rather pathetically petulant thing for a grown man to do. For any grown man to do - let alone one who, according to the theology, was involved in setting the seasons in the first place!

No, I find it rather hard to buy in to this "wonderful Jesus" idea. The Jesus as presented in the NT has his good moments, it's true, but he's also moody, incredibly opaque in some of his answers, petulant, unpredictable, and incredibly undiplomatic - NOT a good quality in someone who'd supposedly been sent from God to win people over. I don't see how anyone encountering the story for the first time without any prior knowledge or indoctrination whatsoever, and without someone standing over them to shape their reactions, could possibly come to the conclusion that this was a man so perfect he had to be God.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

910. Comment #158906 by irate_atheist on April 11, 2008 at 6:51 am

 avatar916. Comment #158902 by Quetzalcoatl -

Philip forgot he'd hired a cleaner.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

911. Comment #158907 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 6:51 am

 avatar
He sent a load of pigs off on a marathon run and made them jump off a cliff!


I can see the porkers needing some exercises.

BTW, isn't that weird that there were actually pig farmers in ancient Israel while pigs were supposed to be abominations for the Jews? Maybe they were Roman pigs..

Other Comments by Bonzai

912. Comment #158908 by Quetzalcoatl on April 11, 2008 at 6:52 am

 avatarIrate-

maybe, but it's more fun to think that when Philip gets pissed, instead of dancing or starting fights, he does the housework.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

913. Comment #158909 by Vaal on April 11, 2008 at 6:55 am

 avatarStill, Paula, in his defence, he could turn water into wine, so he is welcome in my house any day.

Other Comments by Vaal

914. Comment #158912 by Paula Kirby on April 11, 2008 at 7:02 am

 avatar
Vaal: Still, Paula, in his defence, he could turn water into wine, so he is welcome in my house any day.
I think I'd want to be careful on that one - it might have been Liebfraumilch.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

915. Comment #158914 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:03 am

 avatarPaula

No, I find it rather hard to buy in to this "wonderful Jesus" idea. The Jesus as presented in the NT has his good moments, it's true, but he's also moody, incredibly opaque in some of his answers, petulant, unpredictable, and incredibly undiplomatic - NOT a good quality in someone who'd supposedly been sent from God to win people over.


Actually I don't feel that way at all. I think part of the attractive aspect of Jesus to the believers comparing to other aloof deities in other religions is that he was very human in many ways and walked in our shoes, so to speak.

What would you think God should have sent as his representative? A slick, smooth talking PR man in a three piece suit?

Other Comments by Bonzai

916. Comment #158915 by Philip1978 on April 11, 2008 at 7:03 am

 avatarYes, the Bible does not relate the story of the impoverished pig farmer, I suspect he was one of the jeering crowd at the crucifixion!

I actually don't like the Jesus in the NT, his offer for those who wanted to become his disciples to hate their families etc really doesn't wash as well as his feet were!

His insistence that all that was laid out in the OT were still valid and God's law, it kind of tells me that all that rot in Deuteronomy etc was meant to be adhered to. I don't like it when the religious like to say that Jesus was the one who did away with all the nasty bits that God did, its just totally incorrect. You would, as you say, expect better from a perfect being!

Good job I don't believe in any of this!

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

917. Comment #158918 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:06 am

 avatar
Yes, the Bible does not relate the story of the impoverished pig farmer, I suspect he was one of the jeering crowd at the crucifixion!


He might have been a rich farmer to have a whole herd. Moreover, Jews had no business raising pigs according to Judaic law, The pig farmer had to be gentile, probably Roman.

Other Comments by Bonzai

918. Comment #158919 by Vaal on April 11, 2008 at 7:06 am

 avatar918. Comment #158905 by Paula Kirby

I don't see how anyone encountering the story for the first time without any prior knowledge or indoctrination whatsoever, and without someone standing over them to shape their reactions, could possibly come to the conclusion that this was a man so perfect he had to be God


On a serious note, it is self evident from the Bible that Jesus himself had no idea that he was the son of God. It took 40 days and 40 nights fasting in the desert to convince himself. I think that after 40 days and 40 nights fasting I might believe that I was a hobgoblin.

Again, if he believed that he really was the son of God himself then that would be very persuasive to his disciples, who Jesus freely admitted were simple and superstitious fishermen.

Other Comments by Vaal

919. Comment #158921 by Tyler Durden on April 11, 2008 at 7:11 am

 avatarWelcome to RichardDawkins.net

Where we debate whether Jesus Christ was indeed a good man, the actual son of God, or just a very naughty boy! :)

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

920. Comment #158923 by Paula Kirby on April 11, 2008 at 7:13 am

 avatar
Bonzai: What would you think God should have sent as his representative? A slick, smooth talking PR man in a three piece suit?
Good grief, no. Just someone who didn't make his own job 100 times harder and more dangerous by antagonising people it would have been smarter not to antagonise. A few diplomatic skills wouldn't have gone amiss, but Jesus would appear to have been off sick on the day of the training course.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

921. Comment #158925 by Vaal on April 11, 2008 at 7:14 am

 avatar
The Jesus as presented in the NT has his good moments, it's true, but he's also moody, incredibly opaque in some of his answers, petulant, unpredictable, and incredibly undiplomatic


Oh my Thor.... it's David Roberston!

Other Comments by Vaal

922. Comment #158929 by Tyler Durden on April 11, 2008 at 7:24 am

 avatarComment #158923 by Paula Kirby
but Jesus would appear to have been off sick on the day of the training course.
Betcha he had a note from his Dad the next day though: "To whom it may concern, please excuse my only begotten son from missing class yesterday, he had to appear in a Taco shell in Guadalajara. The one true God"

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

923. Comment #158932 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:30 am

 avatarPaula

Just someone who didn't make his own job 100 times harder and more dangerous by antagonising people it would have been smarter not to antagonise


But then if he were more diplomatic he probably wouldn't have gotten himself crucified, would he? In that case he would have failed his mission.

I actually see Jesus as a very sympathetic figure, a man-god who betrayed genuine human emotions. In some way he was supposed to encapsulate the fate of man, with all his humanity and vulnerability. I find the most moving passage in the NT was his prayers in Getsemani, begging the father to take away the bitter cup..

IMO God the father was the bastard in the NT narrative, not Jesus.

But then I may have my view coloured by Nikos Kazantzakis' "the last temptation of Christ". A great book, by the way, much better than the movie.

Other Comments by Bonzai

924. Comment #158934 by Paula Kirby on April 11, 2008 at 7:38 am

 avatar
Bonzai: I actually see Jesus as a very sympathetic figure, a man-god who betrayed genuine human emotions. In some way he was supposed to encapsulate the fate of man, with all his humanity and vulnerability.
Well, all of us have humanity and vulnerability. I don't see Jesus as handling either of them in a way that makes him stand out particularly. As I said before, he had his good moments, but don't we all? He could also be a complete jerk. Again, so can we all. What I'm driving at is that many Christians (if I remember correctly, David Robertson is one) claim that it is the personality of Jesus that convinces them that he was/is God. I simply don't find that remotely persuasive. There is a myth that Jesus as shown in the NT was some sort of outstandingly wonderful character. I really don't find him that special.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

925. Comment #158938 by annabanana on April 11, 2008 at 7:48 am

 avatarDamnit people. If I'm not on this site 24 hours a day, I miss so much stuff.

Other Comments by annabanana

926. Comment #158939 by Frankus1122 on April 11, 2008 at 7:50 am

 avatar
As I said before, he had his good moments, but don't we all? He could also be a complete jerk. Again, so can we all. What I'm driving at is that many Christians (if I remember correctly, David Robertson is one) claim that it is the personality of Jesus that convinces them that he was/is God. I simply don't find that remotely persuasive. There is a myth that Jesus as shown in the NT was some sort of outstandingly wonderful character. I really don't find him that special.


Jesus,if you let him into your heart, is there with you 24/7.

Here is a quote from one of my favourite websites:

I've hung with too many people who want to give me this bunk that Jesus only hangs in the church, or when you petition him in prayer. They might think he shows himself in some really touching, special moment, like when your mom calls to tell you she loves you when you've been feeling lonely all afternoon. Or only sticks his head in when shit gets deep, like when you're gripping on some intense situation and whichever way you turn it looks like you're gonna get busted.
Well, that isn't what they taught me in Sunday school! Jesus is with me 24/7. There is no shaking the guy. Isn't that cool?


I posted this on another thread:
http://widerquist.com/hangnwithjesus/jesus.htm

There are some cool pictures of Jesus being a regular guy. Who wouldn't want to hang with him?

Other Comments by Frankus1122

927. Comment #158940 by Vaal on April 11, 2008 at 7:52 am

 avatarHe was also very fond of cheesemakers..

Other Comments by Vaal

928. Comment #158941 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 7:52 am

 avatarPaula,

I simply don't find that remotely persuasive. There is a myth that Jesus as shown in the NT was some sort of outstandingly wonderful character. I really don't find him that special.


Maybe he was not supposed to be an outstandingly wonderful character? I think one reason the Jews dismiss the Christian claim is that they simply cannot accept a Messiah who was so ordinary.

I actually think that many Christians miss the point too by trying to put Jesus on some pedestal. This was a guy who hanged out with prostitutes, tax collectors and other outcasts (It is kind of ironic that D-I-O accused atheists as "outcasts of their people", that would actually be a very good description of Jesus and his followers)

Other Comments by Bonzai

929. Comment #158942 by Frankus1122 on April 11, 2008 at 7:55 am

 avatar

Who wouldn't want to hang with him?


I mean 'hang' metaphorically, of course.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

930. Comment #158943 by Tyler Durden on April 11, 2008 at 7:55 am

 avatar
"Jesus is with me 24/7. There is no shaking the guy. Isn't that cool?"
Kinda like having your very own stalker!

*shudder*

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

931. Comment #158945 by Quetzalcoatl on April 11, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatarWherever you go, whatever you do, Jesus is with you. You could be eating a cheeseburger, he's there. When you're taking a shower, he's there with you. When you go to the toilet, he's there. While you're sleeping, he's right there with you.

Isn't it a comfort to know that Jesus is with you?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

932. Comment #158947 by Frankus1122 on April 11, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatar

I actually see Jesus as a very sympathetic figure, a man-god who betrayed genuine human emotions. In some way he was supposed to encapsulate the fate of man, with all his humanity and vulnerability.


Jorge Luis Borges wrote a short story called The Three Versions of Judas. The killer idea in it was that it wasn't Jesus that was the Word incarnate but someone who would suffer and be despised for the history of humankind; Judas.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

933. Comment #158949 by Paula Kirby on April 11, 2008 at 8:18 am

 avatar
Bonzai: Maybe he was not supposed to be an outstandingly wonderful character?
Meant by whom? God? I don't believe in him.

My point is that many Christians DO claim that he was/is outstandingly wonderful. And that I simply don't see where they get that from. The Jesus in the NT is a mixed bag at best - NOT the figure of perfection they make out. Nothing wrong with being a mixed bag - it's what we all are. But nothing that special about it either.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

934. Comment #158950 by The Reverend Dark on April 11, 2008 at 8:19 am

 avatarJudas is an interesting figure in the bible, and when you get into gnostic schism of Christianity he becomes a more sympathetic figure.

In order for Jesus to fulfill his ministry, he needs to be betrayed.

Someone needs to betray him.

Enter Judas, taking one for the team.

In some gnostic variation, Judas is the number one guy, who knows what Jesus is, and what must be done for Jesus to shed the corrupted, mortal form. You would think that he could just take him out back of the Garden of G and smear his Barbalo bound brainpan to paste with an ornamental bird-bath, but Nooooooo! He has to get complex.

The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

935. Comment #158955 by Frankus1122 on April 11, 2008 at 8:29 am

 avatar

but Nooooooo! He has to get complex.


I think Borges is taking the piss out of Christian certainty. Although it is hard to tell; he writes in a manner that leads you down paths only to double back and confuse you. (Well, me at any rate).

The certainty with which Christians claim the infalibility of their interpretations is shown up by Borges. There are multiple interpretations of the nature of Jesus from the thousands of Christain sects. He plops down a few versions of Judas; one of which is that he was/is God incarnate. The delightful thing is that he backs up his claims with scriptural reference and 'sound theological' reasoning.

I recommend a reading of this or any other Borges work.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

936. Comment #158956 by Vaal on April 11, 2008 at 8:32 am

 avatarThat was another thing when raised in Sunday school was subject to blank looks. If it was pro-ordained that Judas was to betray Jesus, then he had no free will, so he was not responsible for his own actions. So, poor Judas was turned into a scapegoat and a hate figure for millennia, for something that was predicated before he was born. Hardly seems fair, does it?

Wasn't there a Gospel of Judas? Anyone know what he says in that to redeem himself?

Other Comments by Vaal

937. Comment #158959 by The Reverend Dark on April 11, 2008 at 8:39 am

 avatarI have Ehrman's translation/interpretation of it.

It is pretty boilerplate gnostic.

Cheers,
Shayne

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

938. Comment #158979 by Bonzai on April 11, 2008 at 9:19 am

 avatarPaula,

Meant by whom? God? I don't believe in him.


The people who wrote the stories, of course. You don't have to believe that there is a God to believe that somebody did write the NT, do you?

Other Comments by Bonzai

939. Comment #158990 by MaxD on April 11, 2008 at 9:58 am

 avatarI've always found Judas and Christian attitudes toward him to be really, really odd.

Other Comments by MaxD

940. Comment #158998 by Paula Kirby on April 11, 2008 at 10:08 am

 avatar
Bonzai: The people who wrote the stories, of course.
But what the writers did or didn't mean doesn't form any part of the point I'm making. My point is simply about the number of Christians now who cite the personality of Jesus - as presented in the gospels - as the reason for their devotion. That's what I simply don't buy into.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

941. Comment #159175 by Jon_Sociologist on April 11, 2008 at 2:32 pm

 avatar
Comment #158804 by alan baylis:
No need to refute any of it, just underlining it will be enough!

D.I. Ogenes has said nothing worth refuting, as he has made no point whatsoever beyond hurling personal and religiously bigoted insults. Vulcan, however, has put the odd argument into his posts. Even though these arguments are largely hidden in the constant rapid-fire stream of drivel coming from his teammate, I don't think we should allow them to slide by without clear logical refutation.

Comment #158905 by Paula Kirby:
The Jesus as presented in the NT has his good moments, it's true, but he's also moody, incredibly opaque in some of his answers, petulant, unpredictable, and incredibly undiplomatic - NOT a good quality in someone who'd supposedly been sent from God to win people over.

While I agree that Jesus was not an entirely respectable character (to put it overly mildly) in the christian myths, it is hard to argue with success. In spite of his petulance, un-diplomatic nature and probable non-existence, those convinced by him remain the largest religion in the world. Note that the idiot Vatican statisticians have recently publicized that muslims have surpassed Catholicism as the worlds largest religion, however this compares one sect of christianity to all sects of islam. Christians as a whole are still more numerous than islam.

On the other hand I think we can ridicule his followers for being convinced by such childish, evidence free stories. Are they going to believe a pregnant teen claiming she is a virgin nowadays? If not, why do they believe a teen that made the same claim 2000 years ago? Especially since such a teen would have much more incentive to lie, in modern times a pregnant teen suffers social ostracism, 2000 years ago she would have been brutally murdered.

Comment #158909 by Vaal:
Still, Paula, in his defence, he could turn water into wine, so he is welcome in my house any day.

I like Rowan Atkinson's sketch on that:
Lo and they said unto Him, "how the hell did you do that? Do you do children's parties?"

Comment #158932 by Bonzai:
IMO God the father was the bastard in the NT narrative, not Jesus.

While I think you let Jesus off the hook way to easy, you make a good point. Why did god need to send his "son" to die horribly for our sins so that he could forgive us? Couldn't he just skip the whole whipping and nailing people to trees and just forgive us? And for that matter, how does crucifying someone help? Couldn't he find a more constructive outlet for his anger at what a crappy job he did? I mean he supposedly did make us the way we are, doesn't it seem a little childish and psychopathic to throw a murderous temper tantrum about it? And what is so special about Jesus being the son of god? I seem to recall that we are all "sons of the most high". Or is this actually some cryptic reference to people who smoke a lot of dope having lots of kids?

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

942. Comment #159319 by epeeist on April 12, 2008 at 12:15 am

 avatarComment #159312 by whatrutalkingabout
I tried to read this but it was so caustic. It seems like it is written by a completely bitter, crazy man.
So would you believe reviews by, say, the movie critic of Fox News? Or people from Scientific American?

Have a glance at http://www.expelledexposed.com/ to see some of the other reviews that have been made.

Other Comments by epeeist

943. Comment #159332 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 1:15 am

whatrutalkingabout
I myself have not seen the film, (yet) but plan on making my own decision.
Will you?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

944. Comment #159343 by tron22 on April 12, 2008 at 1:55 am

Mr. Dawkins, if you're so smart, and know exactly what you're talking about, then let's discuss this:

Your Quote:
It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me.

My rebuttal:
If ALL guests were not listed, then how did Mathis spot PZ Myers'? Do we speak English? ALL, means ALL. Apparently scientists don't consider words to mean anything except what they want them to mean.

Your quote:
I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'.

My rebuttal:
If you "misremembered" the details of exchanges in conversation "over the telephone" then how can you "vividly" remember the exchanges otherwise?


Basically, this is tantamount of saying: "I may have misremembered the details of our exchange, in which I told you I would be at your house to pick you up at 7:00pm, but I VIVIDLY remember your admonition to arrive at your house at 7:00pm so we could get to the ballgame on time."

Doesn't add up. Doesn't stack up. Actually, these outpourings crumble under the weight of duplicity and aversion to responsibility for your own actions/words.

You're a light-weight in this universe...get over it.

P.S. I love the "creationist wingnuts" blerb; I suppose that makes you a "non-creationist wingnut".



Other Comments by tron22

945. Comment #159349 by epeeist on April 12, 2008 at 2:18 am

 avatarComment #159343 by tron22

Mr. Dawkins, if you're so smart
Strange isn't how the people who want to make an attack generally refuse to acknowledge RD's qualifications.

Because I am British and titles work slightly differently to the US I would call him Professor Dawkins. In the States I suspect it would be Dr. Dawkins.

"Mr. Dawkins" is simply rude and says more about you than it does about RD.

Other Comments by epeeist

946. Comment #159354 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 2:27 am

Prick
My rebuttal:
If ALL guests were not listed, then how did Mathis spot PZ Myers'? Do we speak English? ALL, means ALL. Apparently scientists don't consider words to mean anything except what they want them to mean.
Richard went as a guest of PZ. What the fuck are you talking about?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

947. Comment #159377 by BillySands on April 12, 2008 at 3:51 am

 avatar
If you "misremembered" the details of exchanges in conversation "over the telephone" then how can you "vividly" remember the exchanges otherwise?


Dear bible, if you cant get your story correct on how many people were at the empty tomb, what time of day it was, were there angels there or not, then why should we trust there is any truth to it.

I wonder if all those angry xian nutters who dont use their real names are actually the same sad pathetic individual.

PS Mr Cretinist wingnut, can you explain the internal telomeric sequences of chromosome 2? Ask your pastor to tell you god did it to look like evolution and test your faith.

Other Comments by BillySands

948. Comment #159513 by epeeist on April 12, 2008 at 11:31 am

 avatarWe seem to have a fair people who are keen for us to reserve our judgement until after the film is released.

Interestingly enough most of these appear to have either joined the site very recently or not to exist. I wonder why this is?

Other Comments by epeeist

949. Comment #159516 by AllanW on April 12, 2008 at 11:37 am

 avatarI'm curious how someone can read this thread and so completely misunderstand its contents. No-one is commenting on the film having not seen it. Some people are commenting after seeing previews and others are commenting upon their impressions. Others are noting details about the making of the film etc.

I see lots of intelligence and thinking for oneself going on here; why do you not, bigcanuck?

I'm glad that people are drawn to this site by controversial issues and popular people but worry, as it seems Epeeist does above, that some of our more recent members may be carrying some particular baggage with them. I'd like to think they are drawn here the same as I was which was to read, learn something and maybe participate.

Other Comments by AllanW

950. Comment #159522 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 12:02 pm

 avatar
whatrutalkingabout: I'm amazed at how you can state that the movie basically forces their ideas down your throat when that is EXACTLY what this blog is doing!
I can only speak for myself, not Dawkins or anyone else here. I have no problem with someone expressing opinions in a movie or a blog which I can view or not. I'm more worried about the state forcing us to accept opinions without evidentiary support.

By demanding that the state base its opinions on corroborative evidence, we set necessary limits upon its power.

Supernaturalism is a blank check. The Discovery Institute's "wedge strategy" is a sneaky method for handing the government a blank check. Good for the powerful. Very bad thing for the little guy.

Other Comments by Dr Benway
Reload Comments | Back to Top


Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password: