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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure — that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 51 - 100 of 9025 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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51. Comment #148728 by Dr Benway on March 23, 2008 at 5:01 pm

 avatarMPhil, I forgot you were in Germany. Guess I can understand your caution.

I make Nazi references fairly frequently, as in, "Take this back to med records or the chart Nazis will be on your ass." But there is no danger such analogies will be construed as an allegation that the med records staff are somehow the seeds of destruction for all humanity.

In contrast "Expelled" does seem to be making a serious comparison between the methodological naturalism of Dawkins and Myers and proto-fascism.

"Gauleiter" is funny in a hyperbolic yet precious way. I must remember it.

"Goon" isn't meant to be funny I think; just angry. I don't take it as a slight against the off duty officer so much as a slight against the unseen boss. Nasty bosses always have goons to do their bidding.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

52. Comment #148729 by oriole on March 23, 2008 at 5:03 pm

Thanks, Richard, that needed to be said. While it was clearly written in something of a white heat, with the result that the prose is somewhat less mannerly and polished than your normal high standard, I think the contempt and revulsion for these disgusting lying slimebags (now THAT'S mannerly and polished writing!) which you did not bother to try to disguise was absolutely appropriate and called for.

You can't fight using Marquis of Queensbury rules when your opponent is operating according to no-rules ultimate fighting. Give 'em Hell, Professor!

Other Comments by oriole

53. Comment #148731 by jusdefacts on March 23, 2008 at 5:11 pm

 avatarWonderful story. I'm still laughing since I read P.Z.'s original post, and this is the gravy on the icing on the cake (if you get my drift). As long as we continue to make our points with clarity and reason, who cares what trolls like clearthinker say?
He's trying to start one of his interminable little niggles, without of course ever addressing the real issues. Ignore him, eventually he'll just dry up and blow away. Also, re the whole "gauleiter" thing. It was an entirely appropriate use of the word, given the incidents earlier and the attempt to link images of the death camps with Darwinism. Any writer worth his salt would be happy to use the word BECAUSE it would bring up those associations. Let's not get so P.C. that we end up looking up our own backsides.

Other Comments by jusdefacts

54. Comment #148732 by Bad on March 23, 2008 at 5:19 pm

 avatarProfessor Dawkins, I know you pretty rarely read comments here, but I still really want to know the context of the remark they have you saying in the intro of the film, the one where you say "...I"m pretty hostile to... a rival doctrine..."

It's pretty obvious that they cut off an important part of your statement in this case, but I've never seen you give the background this particular misrepresentation. As someone who blogs on this topic regularly, it's a loose end I'd like to see tied up.

Does anyone know if this has been addressed by Dawkins already, or if he can be made aware that there are people who want to know what was going on this case just as much as the "aliens" misrepresentation?

Other Comments by Bad

55. Comment #148733 by Bad on March 23, 2008 at 5:27 pm

 avatarclearthinker: the producers have made zero secret about being evangelicals who came together and had a great idea on how to attack evolution. They've been grassroots promoting the film almost entirely through church groups, all the early showing have been to clergy and religious right members, and they are even paying "Christian" schools per kid that they send to the theaters. They don't mention Jewish or Muslim schools, despite the fact that Jews and Muslims also believe in a "creator being of unspecified name" that ID is all about.

So, yeah, Jesus is what's going on here.

Other Comments by Bad

56. Comment #148734 by kluv0008 on March 23, 2008 at 5:29 pm

I now have a concern about all the buzz this movie is getting because of the incident.

I feel that it will bring more people to the movie and may, in the long run, assist in the movie's profitability.

It's essentially free advertising. Sure the film director might look bad, but he seems to be getting a lot of free press which might entice people who are completely against his cause (promoting creationism) to see the movie out of curiosity...hell...I know I'm itching to sneak in to see it!

I just don't want to pay to advance the cause...

This is sort of the way Paris Hilton and Eliot Spitzer's mistress became superstars.

Is 'Expelled' the new Paris Hilton? The thing we all love to hate, but can't take our eyes off of?

Other Comments by kluv0008

57. Comment #148735 by Ned Flanders on March 23, 2008 at 5:37 pm

 avatarNot to self: Don't piss Richard off. Ever.

Other Comments by Ned Flanders

58. Comment #148736 by NormanDoering on March 23, 2008 at 5:38 pm

If anyone wants to tell the screen writer for Expelled what they think, here's the post on his blog where he says he wants to give PZ and all his followers a hug:
http://kevinwrites.typepad.com/otherwise_known_as_kevin_/2008/03/chris-mooney-ge.html

Other Comments by NormanDoering

59. Comment #148738 by NakedCelt on March 23, 2008 at 6:12 pm

Comment #148701 by MPhil:
Using such a term as an ordinary word to describe simply an overbearing official seems to me to be belittling the suffering of the victims of the Nazi-regime.

Maybe I'm a bit oversensitive - but I think taking care not to belittle the Nazi-regime, its crimes and the suffering of its victims is an honorable thing.

I'm afraid this sort of thing is inevitable in the long run. People use extreme words for emphasis until they aren't emphatic any more — that's been going on since there was such a thing as language. Before you sneer at those who use "totally" to mean "quite", remember that "quite" once meant "totally". And yes, a historical entity so memorably and proverbially evil as the Nazis is paydirt for anybody mining for emphatic words for evil. Therefore, those words are going to get degraded. I don't approve of it any more than you do, but there are better things to spend your time and energy fighting.

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60. Comment #148739 by InYourFaceNewYorker on March 23, 2008 at 6:13 pm

 avatarDr. Dawkins,

I can't say this surprises me. I do want to see this movie, mostly out of morbid curiosity... mostly to laugh at the idiocy of the far right. Incidentally, great review.

--Julie (I was the one at the Barnes and Noble in NYC who asked the question about evolution and school bullying during adolescence)

For anybody who's interested, here's my own jab at the idiocy of the far right (satirical articles in which menstruation is outlawed as it "kills babies"): http://www.associatedcontent.com/article/45860/a_satire_of_the_abortion_ban_in_south.html

Other Comments by InYourFaceNewYorker

61. Comment #148740 by Double Bass Atheist on March 23, 2008 at 6:16 pm

 avatarComment #148713 by clearthinker
Dr Dawkins,

Could you please tell us what Mark Mathis has to do with Jesus? How do you know his motivation for lying was 'for Jesus'? Is this not just another cheap shot in a rather silly 'culture' war?


Since it is unlikely that the Professor will respond to you, I will attempt an answer.
(I know he wants us to call him just Richard now, but old habits and respect keep getting in the way)

In no way am I speaking for Richard here (nor would I ever dare do so!). I am simply giving you an answer.

"Lying for Jesus" is a frequently used expression that applies to any/all fundie types who will say anything in order to propagate their Christian agenda. Inventing data, misrepresenting information, deceit and deception, are common place among the "Lying for Jesus" crowd. Remember that Richard was one of several scientists who were tricked into being in this film!

Clearthinker (I cannot think of another alias that could possibly be more of an oxymoronic one for you then your own!) - judging by your posts on other threads, I know it is highly unlikely that you will understand, much less agree, with this post.
You are one of those "Liars for Jesus" yourself and don't seem to know it.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

62. Comment #148741 by Jack Rawlinson on March 23, 2008 at 6:24 pm

 avatarAh, I've been waiting for this all weekend. What a lovely snort of derision in the face of these increasingly desperate and absurd buffoons.

It may have been unplanned and inadvertent, but you and PZ scored a huge hit against these asses. It'll continue to be hilarious watching them try to spin their way out of this unbelievable gaffe.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

63. Comment #148743 by Jack Rawlinson on March 23, 2008 at 6:31 pm

 avatarWhile I sympathize with Richard's anger, this form of sarcastic ridicule is perhaps not the best way to react to "Expelled."

Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree there, sport. These pitiful lying asshats deserve nothing but sarcasm, mockery and ridicule. They're not worth anything else. They're mendacious morons and to give them the slightest respect is to unjustifiably dignify their bullshit and thus help perpetuate it. Wise up.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

64. Comment #148744 by RSpass on March 23, 2008 at 6:39 pm

Something that always surprises me is that the creationists don't jump on the whole "scientists think we came from mud" thing and exclaim "see, we've been saying that all along, it's in our book [gen 3:19]! That proves there is a god."

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65. Comment #148745 by CShepGuy on March 23, 2008 at 7:03 pm

 avatarMark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."

See- All PZ had to do was "handle himself honorably" and they would have let him into the movie. Clearly he was reeking havoc out in the lobby. I would't have let him in either. That guy is an animal. Any word on whether he had his spiked bat with him?

Other Comments by CShepGuy

66. Comment #148746 by hambydammit on March 23, 2008 at 7:17 pm

Geoff (#52) wrote: Clearthinker, lets see now.

"The maker of a creationist film? OK, could be lying for Allah, not Jesus, I suppose, although it seems unlikely."

Has anyone considered an active propaganda campaign to promote a god other than Yahweh, and use Expelled as part of its argument? That would get some fur flying, and might actually prove a point.

Other Comments by hambydammit

67. Comment #148747 by Dune010 on March 23, 2008 at 7:22 pm

 avatarI personally think that the tone of this article is justified. What these people are doing, and have done, deserves ridicule. However, that does not necessarily make it the best thing to do. I won't pretend that I know what the most profitable course of action is, but I would rather not see those who consider ridicule a poor method being attacked for their concern. I certainly don't think that they need to "wise up". Does a failure to ridicule Mathis, Stein and company really give them unnecessary credit?

From a purely aesthetic point of view, I would rather read an article that avoids taking shots at these people. I think they are stupid too, but I would much prefer to see Richard demonstrating composure. And besides, perhaps it is by investing so much attention on this PR blunder that we give them too much credit.

Either way, I don't think I could blame Richard for taking this line. I can certainly empathise with the emotions involved. These people are ridiculous, but perhaps we could be magnanimous.

Other Comments by Dune010

68. Comment #148750 by hmsbeagle3 on March 23, 2008 at 7:46 pm

I really wish the likes of Dawkins would stop engaging these half-wits. It just lends creedence to their malfeasance.

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69. Comment #148752 by NelC on March 23, 2008 at 7:47 pm

Ongauleiter as an insult (which is really a trivial thing, I'm embarrassed to continue this sub-thread): the word has been used in British English since at least the Second World War, if not before, for the kind of officiousness that's mentioned here, as a direct and conscious reference to the Nazi officials. In fact the last time I recall reading the word was in a piece about British air raid wardens, the kind who would caution someone for lighting a cigarette for fear that the German bombers would use the light to navigate by. As such, its introduction into British English predates any knowledge of the Nazi atrocities, except possibly the Blitz itself.

If I could apologise on behalf of the English language to anyone made uncomfortable by the etymology of its English usage, I would, but it's an accepted part of the language now, though perhaps a little old-fashioned.

Other Comments by NelC

70. Comment #148756 by MelM on March 23, 2008 at 8:50 pm

A natural designer would itself require a designer; because, if it had evolved, that would end the need for an intelligent designer and ID ends.

ID boils down to the claim for a non-natural undesigned designer. That's why it's religion. Give the creationists a choice: their god or another yet unknown god. These nutters are stuck in Orwellian doublethink involving two contradictory views: "ID is all about God" and "ID is not about God".

Other Comments by MelM

71. Comment #148758 by Dr Benway on March 23, 2008 at 9:06 pm

 avatar
I really wish the likes of Dawkins would stop engaging these half-wits. It just lends creedence to their malfeasance.
I wouldn't worry. There's a narrow window for kicking the bad people in the nads. It will close soon.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

72. Comment #148759 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 9:14 pm

Comment #148754 by clearmind

I guess I shouldn't be tempted, but here goes.

Wooter. One of the problems of trying to fill gaps in understanding with imaginary designers is that you have a problem deciding which imaginary designer did the work.

You say you believe that snowflakes are designed, that the Sun was designed, and that life was designed.

I say that Snowflakes were the work of Thor, a weather god, the Sun was handled by the god Ra, and life was handled by the godess Gaia.

Prove me wrong.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

73. Comment #148763 by Pteryxx on March 23, 2008 at 9:35 pm

 avatarRe Socrates #49:

"Can anyone think of ways we can you popularize the ideas that "Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen" and that "design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity", as explicitly and clearly expressed as possible? "


How about "Organized complexity begins with a single step." for part 1,

and "Who designed the designer?" for part 2.

I'd wear the T-shirt. ; )

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74. Comment #148764 by themadlolscientist on March 23, 2008 at 9:40 pm

 avatar"What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov?"

It seems the old adage about the pen and the sword has just been updated - with a vengeance - for the 21st century:

The blog is mightier than the Kalashnikov.

"Give the creationists a choice: their god or another yet unknown god."

Like the old lady said: "Young man, it's turtles all the way down!"

Or maybe it's really Privy Seals all the way down. Who knows?

Other Comments by themadlolscientist

75. Comment #148765 by Steve Zara on March 23, 2008 at 9:41 pm

Comment #148719 by Socrates
"Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen"


Sure it can. The point is that when you have a lot of complexity, it is very, very unlikely that it will have happened spontaneously.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

76. Comment #148771 by Russell Blackford on March 23, 2008 at 10:06 pm

I tried to post here earlier, but the site wasn't working. Oh well, posted this over on my own blog.

http://metamagician3000.blogspot.com/2008/03/dawkins-reviews-expelled.html

Richard Dawkins now has a superb review of Expelled over on his site - which, unfortunately, seems to have been overloaded with traffic all morning.

The best part of the review, when you can actually read it, is his cogent response to one of the main points that Expelled evidently tries to make in a ham-fisted way: that Darwinian evolutionary theory leads to Nazism. Dawkins says it better than I can, but his point is something like this. Yes, Hitler may have been influenced by some garbled version of Darwinian theory, to which he added a good dose of Humean fallacy, thus producing one ingredient in the racist, totalitarian witches' brew of Nazi ideology. That by no means entails that Darwinian theory leads to Nazism. It also has nothing to do with whether the essentials of Darwinian evolutionary theory are actually true. (And while it likewise doesn't disprove the truth of Christianity, Hitler is likely to have been influenced at least as much by the long history of anti-Semitism in Germany, founded on Christian hostility to the Jews.)

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77. Comment #148773 by ZekeCDN on March 23, 2008 at 10:24 pm

 avatarRe the earlier comment about "Expelled" torrents being available online: the four that are currently listed are ALL fakes. You'll note that each contains two files, a video file and a text file. The text file instructs the downloader to visit a porn site to obtain the password to decrypt the video file. Caveat emptor!

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78. Comment #148774 by blasphemer_number1 on March 23, 2008 at 10:24 pm

 avatarWhat ever happened to the freedom of assembly? I'd like to apologize for the treatment Dr.Dawkins received in my country.

While I am interested in seeing this crappy film, I am not interested in contributing any kind of money toward the success of such deceitful propaganda.

I wish there were a way I could donate against a film like this. Perhaps there is and I'm just too naive?

Other Comments by blasphemer_number1

79. Comment #148775 by Jaffas85 on March 23, 2008 at 10:29 pm

I don't understand how anyone can believe that an understanding of evolution could have acted as a catalyst for the Holocaust.

Its worse than the Scientologists who claim that Psychiatrists were the evil force behind the Holocaust.

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80. Comment #148776 by Combine_Dave on March 23, 2008 at 10:41 pm

 avatarI'd like to see how Mathis response to RD's article above.

In the interests of free speech, and of course further opportunity of hilarity at the expense of stupid creationists :P

Other Comments by Combine_Dave

81. Comment #148778 by October Mermaid on March 23, 2008 at 10:47 pm

 avatarThis whole fiasco has left me feeling conflicted.

On the one hand, I want to go see a movie with Dawkins and the gang.

On the other, I don't think I could sit through Expelled.

Other Comments by October Mermaid

82. Comment #148779 by Wosret on March 23, 2008 at 10:47 pm

 avatarThat was a great artical. I absolutely love RD's writing. It is always entertaining and eloquently barbed ( to borrow from Neal Tyson).

I also agree taht invoking any hyperbolic reference to Nazism is in bad taste.

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83. Comment #148780 by RogerScott on March 23, 2008 at 10:48 pm

RD said (but I wish he hadn't): "By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories."
Those aren't theories. They are hypotheses and we do ourselves no favours by using 'theory' when we actually mean 'hypothesis'. We are aiding those creationists and others in the anti-science brigade who comfort themselves with their claim that evolution is only a theory. Sure it is and a theory is much higher up the order of things than a hypothesis. A hypothesis is simply a testable idea and this is presently the way it is with scientific ideas regarding the origin of life.

Other Comments by RogerScott

84. Comment #148783 by Wosret on March 23, 2008 at 10:56 pm

 avatarSteve, if I were going to turn theist, and just believe whatever god/s I like exist, as they seem to, I personally favor Gaia. I favor a female progenitor.

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85. Comment #148784 by William Wallace on March 23, 2008 at 10:57 pm

Professor Dawkins,

A few points to clear up some of your confusion:

You should take a listen to National Public Radio's Intelligent Design and Academic Freedom

PZ Myers had promised to disrupt the showing back in August of 2007.

Of course you were recognized. Since you're not a "brass-knuckle" type, you were allowed in, as the New York Times piece indicates.

Incidentally, PZ Myers was gate crashing. If you'd like to clarify your and PZ's lies for Darwin, please do so here. Perhaps you could explain to your British readers why PZ RSVP'd to a private screening that he was not invited to attend.

By the way, one of the main contributors at Coincidence Theories, Gerry Rzeppa, would like to challenge you, if you're up for it.

Other Comments by William Wallace

86. Comment #148786 by robotaholic on March 23, 2008 at 11:23 pm

 avatarWilliam Wallace, your August of 2007 link says 404 not found, the Intelligent Design and Academic Freedom link didn't tell me anything except that the Smithsonian didn't want their reputation tarnished by a nonscientific hypothesis, and the PZ Myers link doesn't show he was going to "crash" anything -

-and you really should call him Professor

Other Comments by robotaholic

87. Comment #148787 by William Wallace on March 23, 2008 at 11:28 pm

Thank you robotaholic, I just fixed the post.

Other Comments by William Wallace

88. Comment #148790 by flyingfsck on March 23, 2008 at 11:47 pm

Well, an interview by Ben Stein must be the most torturous experience ever. Were the victims strapped into Vogon poetry appreciation chairs?

Anyone? Class, anyone? ...

Other Comments by flyingfsck

89. Comment #148792 by wagnerfilm on March 23, 2008 at 11:54 pm

 avatarThe post by PZ that William Wallace, a well-known creationist troll, links to says this:

One, I will go see this movie, and I will cheer loudly at my 30 seconds or whatever on the screen, and I will certainly disembowel its arguments here and in any print venue that wants me. That's going to be fun.

This is hardly a promise to "disrupt" a screening, unless you count cheering at yourself on screen a "disruption." As PZ makes it clear, his critiques of the movie will be reserved for blogs and print venues. Nowhere does he say he'd loudly heckle the movie MST3K style, though that's the least "Expelled" deserves in my humble opinion.

And...once more with feeling...PZ signed up for the screening the same way every single other attendee signed up for it, by filling out the appropriate request form on the movie's website. There will probably be no stopping creos like Mathis and Wallace from lying all the live-long day about PZ's "gatecrashing," but if PZ was gatecrashing, then so was every other attendee there.

So once again we see, you can reliably count on a creationist troll to lie and misrepresent. Creationists, I have found, simply can't NOT lie. It's a bit of collective psychological dysfunction that cries out for study.

Other Comments by wagnerfilm

90. Comment #148793 by Sinful Messiah on March 24, 2008 at 12:00 am

In an interview with Pat Robertson, Ben Stein discusses his new propaganda piece.
http://www. youtube. com/watch?v=EYTTkenu60Y

Here's what Stein says:

Darwinism leads to Social Darwinism, so I've always questioned it.

Darwinism explains so little:
It does not explain how life began.
It does not explain how gravity keeps the planets together and in their orbits.
It doesn't explain how thermodynamics works.
It doesn't explain how physics or the laws of motions works.

No one has ever observed the evolution of a single mamallian species. No one has found fossil record of this.

People want to suppress the idea of an intelligent designer because they think, "If there's a God, I'm going to be held morally accountable. If there is no God, if it all happens by accident, random mutation, and natural selection, I'm not responsible; I'm just a creature of my genes. But if there is a God, I'm morally responsible and I'm in deep trouble here."

It's a perfectly reasonable hypothesis that an intelligent designer who always was created life.

Life came from an intelligent designer. I'm willing to admit that I could be wrong, just give us free speech!

Darwin didn't mention astronomy or physics.
Why can't we question whether Darwinism accounts for those things too?

Other Comments by Sinful Messiah

91. Comment #148794 by RationalistHomeTchr on March 24, 2008 at 12:01 am

While I was enjoying an Easter dinner today with my Jewish relatives, I started to tell them about the expelled-from-Expelled story. As a precursor to the telling, I asked, "Have you guys ever heard of Ben Stein?" I was going to allude to the one thing I know of him (his role in "Ferris Bueller's Day Off"), but they surprised me by saying, "Yeah, he goes to our temple." Once I told them the whole story, my relatives' mouths were hanging open with astonishment. I asked what someone from their Jewish temple was doing, fronting for creationists, and they were, "Wow! I don't know!" It was pretty funny...

Other Comments by RationalistHomeTchr

92. Comment #148795 by William Wallace on March 24, 2008 at 12:03 am

What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov?


Well, maybe. From Get meaner, angrier, louder, fiercer:

The only appropriate response should involve some form of righteous fury, much butt-kicking, and the public firing of some teachers, many school board members, and vast numbers of sleazy, far-right politicians ... I say, screw the polite words and careful rhetoric. It's time for scientists to break out the steel-toed boots and brass knuckles, and get out there and hammer on the lunatics and idiots.


Other Comments by William Wallace

93. Comment #148797 by wagnerfilm on March 24, 2008 at 12:16 am

 avatarThat's sounds like a fine idea from PZ there. Indeed, the disinformation campaign from creationist circles has become so egregious in recent years that repudiation from the scientific community needs to be forceful.

Of course, it's no surprise a guy like Wallace would interpret metaphorical language like "It's time for scientists to break out the steel-toed boots and brass knuckles, and get out there and hammer on the lunatics and idiots," to be a call to action for physical violence. Apart from not being very smart, the minds of creationists are (in the words Dawkins used to describe their home movie) "utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety."

Other Comments by wagnerfilm

94. Comment #148799 by yyuryyub on March 24, 2008 at 12:23 am

I just watched the link( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYTTkenu60Y ) provided by Sinful Messiah and I suggest everyone does the same. I don't think Stein is as devious as Mathis (Wallace?), he is just plain old STUPID. Incredibly, shockingly stupid and ignorant of anything to do with science.

He basically says, 'Biology is not physics or astronomy therefore I should be allowed to say "God did it" in a university setting'. Wow!

Other Comments by yyuryyub

95. Comment #148801 by lievemebe on March 24, 2008 at 12:45 am

Richard Dawkins writes:
Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films.>


Dr. Dawkins assessment is consistent with the Expelled trailer and opinions of other observers of the film. If the release is as bad as the preview it will be both a blight on the documentary film industry and a severe blow to the credibility of creationists.

I thoroughly enjoyed the spontaneity and honesty of Richard's post.

Other Comments by lievemebe

96. Comment #148802 by stevencarrwork on March 24, 2008 at 1:01 am

DAWKINS
' Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin...'

CARR
Very likely. Hitler seemed to have the same view of Darwin that creationists have.

Hitler explicity rejected Darwinism and the evolution of man.

From Hitler's Tischgespraeche for 1942 'Woher nehmen wir das Recht zu glauben, der Mensch sei nicht von Uranfaengen das gewesen , was er heute ist? Der Blick in die Natur zeigt uns, dass im Bereich der Pflanzen und Tiere Veraenderungen und Weiterbildungen vorkommen. Aber nirgends zeigt sich innherhalb einer Gattung eine Entwicklung von der Weite des Sprungs, den der Mensch gemacht haben muesste, sollte er sich aus einem affenartigen Zustand zu dem, was er ist, fortgebildet haben.'

I shall translate Hitler's words, which were recored by the stenographer.

'From where do we get the right to believe that man was not from the very beginning what he is today.

A glance in Nature shows us , that changes and developments happen in the realm of plants and animals. But nowhere do we see inside a kind, a development of the size of the leap that Man must have made, if he supposedly has advanced from an ape-like condition to what he is' (now)



And in the entry for 27 February 1942 , Hitler says 'Das, was der Mensch von dem Tier voraushat, der veilleicht wunderbarste Beweis fuer die Ueberlegenheit des Menschen ist, dass er begriffen hat, dass es eine Schoepferkraft geben muss.'

Hitler was a creationist....

Other Comments by stevencarrwork

97. Comment #148803 by Steve Zara on March 24, 2008 at 1:04 am

Comment #148793 by Sinful Messiah

Ben Stein:
Darwinism explains so little:
It does not explain how life began.
It does not explain how gravity keeps the planets together and in their orbits.
It doesn't explain how thermodynamics works.
It doesn't explain how physics or the laws of motions works.


It seems we have finally uncovered who wooter/clearmind is!

But seriously, it seems that wooters' ramblings are not unique. There are others who manage to mangle their brains to the same degree. I have to say I find that both shocking and deeply troubling. It would be hard to engage in any kind of discussion someone who is so disconnected from reality in so many ways.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

98. Comment #148805 by epeeist on March 24, 2008 at 1:13 am

 avatarComment #148801 by lievemebe

Dr. Dawkins assessment is consistent with the Expelled trailer and opinions of other observers of the film. If the release is as bad as the preview it will be both a blight on the documentary film industry and a severe blow to the credibility of creationists.
So how does one go about making nominations for the "Razzies"?

Other Comments by epeeist

99. Comment #148807 by helical4 on March 24, 2008 at 1:28 am

 avatarI can't believe it. It's just too funny.

I was thinking of seeing this movie, just to see what it is all about (when it comes out to theatres). However, now I don't think I'll waste my money.

I think the film will still make it to theatres regardless. My only concern is that it will make the general public more suspcious of Darwinism (needlessly), and make them more unwilling to learn about it.

Other Comments by helical4

100. Comment #148809 by lievemebe on March 24, 2008 at 1:37 am

reply to Comment #148805 by epeeist

If the film is as bad as many suspect, it could self-nominate as a classic, used henceforth by rationalists to educate young minds on the nature of the ridiculous. Ben Stein will be a star of the worst kind, perhaps as dense as a neutron star. I don't normally go in for personal attacks but some people do ask for it.

Other Comments by lievemebe
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