Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 951 - 1000 of 9332 |

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

951. Comment #159343 by tron22 on April 12, 2008 at 1:55 am

Mr. Dawkins, if you're so smart, and know exactly what you're talking about, then let's discuss this:

Your Quote:
It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me.

My rebuttal:
If ALL guests were not listed, then how did Mathis spot PZ Myers'? Do we speak English? ALL, means ALL. Apparently scientists don't consider words to mean anything except what they want them to mean.

Your quote:
I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'.

My rebuttal:
If you "misremembered" the details of exchanges in conversation "over the telephone" then how can you "vividly" remember the exchanges otherwise?


Basically, this is tantamount of saying: "I may have misremembered the details of our exchange, in which I told you I would be at your house to pick you up at 7:00pm, but I VIVIDLY remember your admonition to arrive at your house at 7:00pm so we could get to the ballgame on time."

Doesn't add up. Doesn't stack up. Actually, these outpourings crumble under the weight of duplicity and aversion to responsibility for your own actions/words.

You're a light-weight in this universe...get over it.

P.S. I love the "creationist wingnuts" blerb; I suppose that makes you a "non-creationist wingnut".



Other Comments by tron22

952. Comment #159349 by epeeist on April 12, 2008 at 2:18 am

 avatarComment #159343 by tron22

Mr. Dawkins, if you're so smart
Strange isn't how the people who want to make an attack generally refuse to acknowledge RD's qualifications.

Because I am British and titles work slightly differently to the US I would call him Professor Dawkins. In the States I suspect it would be Dr. Dawkins.

"Mr. Dawkins" is simply rude and says more about you than it does about RD.

Other Comments by epeeist

953. Comment #159354 by Peacebeuponme on April 12, 2008 at 2:27 am

Prick
My rebuttal:
If ALL guests were not listed, then how did Mathis spot PZ Myers'? Do we speak English? ALL, means ALL. Apparently scientists don't consider words to mean anything except what they want them to mean.
Richard went as a guest of PZ. What the fuck are you talking about?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

954. Comment #159377 by BillySands on April 12, 2008 at 3:51 am

 avatar
If you "misremembered" the details of exchanges in conversation "over the telephone" then how can you "vividly" remember the exchanges otherwise?


Dear bible, if you cant get your story correct on how many people were at the empty tomb, what time of day it was, were there angels there or not, then why should we trust there is any truth to it.

I wonder if all those angry xian nutters who dont use their real names are actually the same sad pathetic individual.

PS Mr Cretinist wingnut, can you explain the internal telomeric sequences of chromosome 2? Ask your pastor to tell you god did it to look like evolution and test your faith.

Other Comments by BillySands

955. Comment #159512 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 11:26 am

I'm curious how there can be so many opinions on this film when it hasn't been released yet. For a forum that prides itself on intelligence and thinking for one's self, I would think it would be difficult to critique something that you have not seen.

I haven't seen it yet and I will reserve my critique for after I have seen the film. Seems some of you are becoming the "flock" that blindly follows..... their own brand of shepherd.

Other Comments by bigcanuck

956. Comment #159513 by epeeist on April 12, 2008 at 11:31 am

 avatarWe seem to have a fair people who are keen for us to reserve our judgement until after the film is released.

Interestingly enough most of these appear to have either joined the site very recently or not to exist. I wonder why this is?

Other Comments by epeeist

957. Comment #159516 by AllanW on April 12, 2008 at 11:37 am

 avatarI'm curious how someone can read this thread and so completely misunderstand its contents. No-one is commenting on the film having not seen it. Some people are commenting after seeing previews and others are commenting upon their impressions. Others are noting details about the making of the film etc.

I see lots of intelligence and thinking for oneself going on here; why do you not, bigcanuck?

I'm glad that people are drawn to this site by controversial issues and popular people but worry, as it seems Epeeist does above, that some of our more recent members may be carrying some particular baggage with them. I'd like to think they are drawn here the same as I was which was to read, learn something and maybe participate.

Other Comments by AllanW

958. Comment #159522 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 12:02 pm

 avatar
whatrutalkingabout: I'm amazed at how you can state that the movie basically forces their ideas down your throat when that is EXACTLY what this blog is doing!
I can only speak for myself, not Dawkins or anyone else here. I have no problem with someone expressing opinions in a movie or a blog which I can view or not. I'm more worried about the state forcing us to accept opinions without evidentiary support.

By demanding that the state base its opinions on corroborative evidence, we set necessary limits upon its power.

Supernaturalism is a blank check. The Discovery Institute's "wedge strategy" is a sneaky method for handing the government a blank check. Good for the powerful. Very bad thing for the little guy.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

959. Comment #159528 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 12:11 pm

 avatar
bigcanuck: I'm curious how there can be so many opinions on this film when it hasn't been released yet. For a forum that prides itself on intelligence and thinking for one's self, I would think it would be difficult to critique something that you have not seen.
Such scattershot criticisms are not helpful. We'll have a more productive discussion if you quote something someone has said that bothered you, and you direct your comments to that person specifically.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

960. Comment #159530 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 12:13 pm

 avatar
tron22: You're a light-weight in this universe...get over it.
Most of us here aren't particularly interested in Richard Dawkins' personality. For the sake of argument, how about we concede he's an ignoramus.

Now what would you like to discuss?

Other Comments by Dr Benway

961. Comment #159533 by myarbrough61 on April 12, 2008 at 12:21 pm

One other thing...I would rather spend my life believing that I was created by God than to believe that I descended from a rock!

Other Comments by myarbrough61

962. Comment #159537 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 12:29 pm

 avatar
myarbrough61: One other thing...I would rather spend my life believing that I was created by God than to believe that I descended from a rock!
Aw, some rocks are kinda pretty.

But more seriously: basing your beliefs upon your wishes is a bad strategy. Seek what is true above all else.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

963. Comment #159538 by AllanW on April 12, 2008 at 12:29 pm

 avatar'I would rather spend my life believing that I was created by God than to believe that I descended from a rock!'

Only because you desperately wish to distance yourself from your current close resemblance to one. Enjoy whatever delusion you wish, my friend and have a lovely vacation from reality. Let us know how it was when and if you ever return to us.

Other Comments by AllanW

964. Comment #159544 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 12:57 pm

 avatarHey visitors from Expelled, check this out:

http://www.fi.edu/franklinawards/08/laureate_bf_physics-jin.html

A young woman, Deborah Jin, and her colleagues have managed to observe what happens to subatomic particles cooled to just billionths of a degree above absolute zero. They've created "the first quantum coherent gas of fermions - achievements that have opened a new area of quantum physics which bridges atomic, molecular, optical and condensed matter physics."

What they've seen confirms predictions made by Einstein in 1925. Awesome! Stuff like this makes me proud to be an American.

Now, based upon the reviews and excerpts I've seen, the movie Expelled seems a clear attack upon science. It's cleverly done and likely will confuse children and poorly educated people regarding the nature of the scientific method. The rules of evidence used in science aren't anti-freedom; they're necessary.

Science is more about papers than people. Tell me, what papers concerned with intelligent design have been rejected by scientific journals? Were they rejected due to bias, or due to inadequate or improper methods, statistics, and reasoning?

Please don't hurt America. Just say No! to this bad movie.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

965. Comment #159546 by ForestMist on April 12, 2008 at 1:12 pm

 avatarmyarbrough61 - why, what's so good about believing you were created by god? And what's wrong with rocks? The ones in "Labyrinth" were really helpful in helping Sarah rescue her brother

Other Comments by ForestMist

966. Comment #159564 by Frankus1122 on April 12, 2008 at 2:19 pm

 avatartron 22

Basically, this is tantamount of saying: "I may have misremembered the details of our exchange, in which I told you I would be at your house to pick you up at 7:00pm, but I VIVIDLY remember your admonition to arrive at your house at 7:00pm so we could get to the ballgame on time."

Doesn't add up. Doesn't stack up. Actually, these outpourings crumble under the weight of duplicity and aversion to responsibility for your own actions/words.


I wanted to quote this argument to point out some flaws in the analogy used and the meaning of what Dawkins said.
He said:
I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'.


The difference between this and what your rebuttal suggested is this:
One can have a conversation and get a distinct impression of another person's beliefs on certain matters. Dawkins' impression was that Mathis was not a follower of ID belief. This was evidenced by his lack of objection to Dawkins' "sarcastic jokes."
So it is true that one may not remember all the details of all conversations and emails with a particular person to come away with a general impression of that person. That happens here on this site and in your daily life and correspondence with people.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

967. Comment #159574 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 2:48 pm

 avatarComment #159544 by Dr Benway
What they've seen confirms predictions made by Einstein in 1925. Awesome! Stuff like this makes me proud to be an American.


You are right, but also, I am afraid, wrong. It is indeed awesome, but it is nothing to do with Einstein. An equally impressive state of matter - the Bose-Einstein condensate was predicted by Bose in 1924. This is something even weirder - a fermionic condensate. The achievement is far greater.

I often try and provide generally accessible explanations for the scientific phenomena I discuss, but I have to admit I am at a loss here. These condensates are just too weird to easily describe. The Bose-Einstein condensate is a collection of atoms where the idea of each atom having a separate identity becomes meaningless. It has seriously weird properties, like the ability to reduce the speed of light through the material to zero.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

968. Comment #159575 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 2:55 pm

Enjoy whatever delusion you wish, my friend and have a lovely vacation from reality. Let us know how it was when and if you ever return to us.


Dangerous invitation, AllanW. It is precisely the superstitious supernaturalists' eternally posted postcard during that vacation stating 'I wish you were here' that is the PRECISE problem.

I know you said what you said with some levity, in the same way I have used some to respond here, but I do ask you to let the letter of your word reflect the seriousness of the dangers we really face when confronting the insane tossbags of the faithful.

Same goes for all of us. Watch and be proud of your lexis when used to denounce the faithheads. It means too much to be thrown lightly around, such that the next fucking faithhead trolling here uses it to 'endorse' their position.

The approach we adopt and the language we use in fighting the forces of irrationality are more important, I think, than some here recognise.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

969. Comment #159579 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 3:03 pm

Ben Stein is not trying to damage anything scientific. This is what I'm having a problem with. He quite distinctly states that since Darwinists have no answer for how life began, there is obviously large holes in their theory.

He is concerned (as I am) that discussion is not encouraged on alternate theories that could explain the very lynch pin of any theory... if life evolves without intelligent design of some type... how did it begin in the first place? Ben stein is a very intelligent man and I don't think you'll find anywhere that he discredits science... he is discrediting those who would shut down discussion. When Dawkins tells those who disagree with him to just "shut up" it is simply arrogant and not productive.

Other Comments by bigcanuck

970. Comment #159582 by Radesq on April 12, 2008 at 3:07 pm

 avatarSteve -- if the condensate reduces the speed of light to zero would it then be dark matter? Perhaps not, but that got me thinking what were the theoretical percentages of dark matter and dark energy in our universe again? Pretty high I thought. How come our space exploration vehicles that have been traveling the solar system and beyond for the last 30 years haven't run into any yet? If the Voyager spacecraft or some other vehicle flew into dark matter would it be like smashing into matter? Like an asteroid?

Other Comments by Radesq

971. Comment #159585 by Geoff on April 12, 2008 at 3:09 pm

 avatar970. Comment #159574 by Steve Zara
It has seriously weird properties, like the ability to reduce the speed of light through the material to zero.


It's a stop light?

Other Comments by Geoff

972. Comment #159589 by Geoff on April 12, 2008 at 3:13 pm

 avatar964. Comment #159533 by myarbrough61


One other thing...I would rather spend my life believing that I was created by God than to believe that I descended from a rock!


But dust is just very small rocks!

Genesis 3:19 "For you were made from dust..."

Other Comments by Geoff

973. Comment #159591 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:17 pm

 avatarComment #159582 by Radesq
Steve -- if the condensate reduces the speed of light to zero would it then be dark matter?


No, for a couple of reasons. First, the condensate only occurs (as far as we know) at temperatures well below the typical background temperature of our universe (around 3K).

We should not be thinking of our space probes bumping into dark matter. The average density of normal matter in the universe is very low. In fact, so low that it is unlikely to have much if any impact on our space probes as they travel between stars. Dark matter is only a few times more dense than that. The average density even of dark matter is vastly less than any vacuum we can create on Earth, even if dark matter consists of lumpy things like small black holes.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

974. Comment #159592 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 3:21 pm

Comment #159579 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 3:03 pm

Ben Stein is not trying to damage anything scientific. This is what I'm having a problem with. He quite distinctly states that since Darwinists have no answer for how life began, there is obviously large holes in their theory.

He is concerned (as I am) that discussion is not encouraged on alternate theories that could explain the very lynch pin of any theory... if life evolves without intelligent design of some type... how did it begin in the first place? Ben stein is a very intelligent man and I don't think you'll find anywhere that he discredits science... he is discrediting those who would shut down discussion. When Dawkins tells those who disagree with him to just "shut up" it is simply arrogant and not productive.


Bigcanuck, do you not see that introducing into science, and into science lessons at school, the notion that 'God did it, and there's your answer' is 'damaging' to science?

Are you, sir, at all acquainted with the very same scientific method which delivered us from the idea that illness is a punishment from god. and granted us the ability to see germs for what they were? Do you not realise that your whole life depends on the scientific method having proved, on the basis of evidence, and a million times over, that it has better and more productive answers to what were once the most mysterious workings of nature, but attributed to 'gods'?

Ben Stein, sir, is attempting to refute ALL of this. His (shamefully unspoken, in this film) notion of Intelligent Design is PRECISELY - 'God did it.'

How can you possibly assert that Stein is NOT 'trying to damage anything scientific'?

And please, do us all a favour, including yourself, and tell us when Dawkins has ever - except perhaps rhetorically - said 'shut up' to anyone who disagrees with him.

You amaze me.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

975. Comment #159595 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 3:25 pm

Bose-Einstein condensation is a state where a few thousands to a few billions bosons,--
a boson is a particle that has integral spin,-- occupying the same low energy single particle state at low temperature under very delicately maintained conditions. Since all the particles have the same quantum state, they essentially become "the same" in some sense.

What is peculiar about the BEC state is that the atoms behave in a completely coherent way and together become in a sense, a gigantic atom instead of a large number of atoms.

From quantum mechanics, we know that particles behave like waves, now since all these particles are completely in step, the waves amplify each other and give rise to a large amplitude wave that can be observed macroscopically. BEC is the manifestation of QM in a macroscopic world.

However, Dr.Benway is talking about a kind of "Bose Einstein" condensation of Fermions (particle of half integer spins), This is quite strange because unlike Bosons which can be "squeezed" into the same quantum state thus giving rise to the coherent behaviour in the macroscopic scale, It is impossible to put two fermions in the same quantum state because of the Pauli exclusion principle, so rather different physics may be at work.

Other Comments by Bonzai

976. Comment #159599 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:31 pm

 avatarComment #159533 by myarbrough61

One other thing...I would rather spend my life believing that I was created by God than to believe that I descended from a rock!


Rocks are just so cool! They have experienced so much - the heat of the magma, the decay of elements within them, pressures almost beyond imagining. Look at a rock under a microscope and prepare to be amazed.

There is a suggestion that life originated on the surface of rocks, or something close. This is the Cairns-Smith hypothesis, that patterns of clay minerals could replicate and be subject to selection. It is probably not true, but shows just how wonderful the combination of rocks, chemistry and physics can be.

Your alternative is some sky fairy saying "I am going to make myself some living toys".

I would be far happier to be a descendent of a rock.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

977. Comment #159600 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 3:33 pm

Comment #159591 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:17 pm


Some while ago, Steve, you said you'd check out my interpretation of Stenger, to the tune that 'nothing' is inherently unstable, so permitting quantum mechanics to do its stuff and create 'something'. The whole idea was, if I recall correctly, that 'something' is a more likely state than that of 'nothing'.

Did you get anywhere with your investigations?

Thanks.

[Edit: and sorry if this is a digression! It's still so much on my mind, I'm afraid.]

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

978. Comment #159601 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:40 pm

 avatar
What is peculiar about the BEC state is that the atoms behave in a completely coherent way and together become in a sense, a gigantic atom instead of a large number of atoms.


We get some idea of the strangeness involved if we look at Helium II, which flows with no friction, and is a superconductor of heat.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

979. Comment #159604 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 3:48 pm

Liquid He has a condensation fraction of less than 10% while for dilute BEC it is close to 100%. Also BEC states are in a sense "adjustable" over a wide range with say, light.

Other Comments by Bonzai

980. Comment #159605 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:50 pm

 avatarComment #159600 by Styrer-
Some while ago, Steve, you said you'd check out my interpretation of Stenger, to the tune that 'nothing' is inherently unstable, so permitting quantum mechanics to do its stuff and create 'something'. The whole idea was, if I recall correctly, that 'something' is a more likely state than that of 'nothing'.

Did you get anywhere with your investigations?


Yes. I have been researching Stenger's ideas in some detail because I am soon (I promise!) to write a substantial blog entry on the issue of "fine tuning", which includes my understanding of Stenger's ideas.

My conclusion so far is that he has provided no evidence at all for his idea. He describes the initial state of the universe as some sort of potentiality at the Planck scale. He attempts (as far as I can tell) to link the idea that the universe arose from this potentiality in some way with the idea that black holes at such scales are unstable, and give off radiation. This seems to me to be a profound misunderstanding, as black holes only evaporate into existing spacetime, whereas the initial state of the universe had no spacetime for this to happen.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

981. Comment #159607 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:52 pm

 avatarComment #159604 by Bonzai

Sure. I am only saying that liquid He II gives us some kind of idea of the phenomena. I am not saying it is an exact replica. Gimme a break here.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

982. Comment #159610 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 4:02 pm

Comment #159605 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 3:50 pm


Bugger.

So all of the theists - against whom I've been tentatively arguing that we NOW have understanding of precisely how something can emerge from nothing, thanks primarily to Stenger - will be quite entitled, following your research, to shout loud and clear 'I TOLD YOU! Something CANNOT come from NOTHING!'

Come on, Steve. Leave me with something a little more persuasively NON-GOD-like!

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

983. Comment #159615 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 4:14 pm

 avatar
Steve: The Bose-Einstein condensate is a collection of atoms where the idea of each atom having a separate identity becomes meaningless. It has seriously weird properties, like the ability to reduce the speed of light through the material to zero.
Fuckin' A!

Other Comments by Dr Benway

984. Comment #159618 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 4:21 pm

Styrer,

So all of the theists - against whom I've been tentatively arguing that we NOW have understanding of precisely how something can emerge from nothing, thanks primarily to Stenger - will be quite entitled, following your research, to shout loud and clear 'I TOLD YOU! Something CANNOT come from NOTHING!'


Ask them where did God come from next time.

I always think it is bad idea to be put in a position where we tacitly agree that it is only rational to disbelieve if science has comprehensive answers to all the questions that may arise.

Well science certainly doesn't have all the answers, may never have them.

But the bottom line is religion has given NO answer whatsoever. The onus is on them to provide even just one honest answer.Why should we be always expected to have the answers while they are making the claims?

Sorry man, I was quite rude to you the other night, I think I got you mixed up with someone else.

Other Comments by Bonzai

985. Comment #159619 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 4:26 pm

Actually, Steve, on re-consideration, I have to say I think you are being a bit of a twat about this.

Look - Stenger posits a universe where its own being is more likely than its not being, and goes to some considerable degree to support his notion.

That you would, sir, seek to dismiss it by means of a 'blog' entry seems to me to be the height of arrogance.

Is this man not a world-class, world-renowned scientist? Would you not expect his findings to have already been found in error if he is simply wrong?

For you to suggest that he presents 'no evidence at all for his idea' is surely a smack to the head of someone whose entire academic career, and hence CONCLUSIONS, have been wholly evidenced driven.

Is your own view, leading to your denunciation of a 'one-universe' guy like Stenger, not simply that there are multiple universes, a view which requires similar levels of evidence as those of Stenger's ideas to support?

I perceive a double standard here, and I am very displeased with you, Steve, as a result.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

986. Comment #159620 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 4:29 pm

Styrer... I guess you haven't seen the film then eh? Maybe you had better see it before you make certain comments like Dawkins not telling anyone to shut up.... I believe it might be on the trailer itself.

You certainly are condescending in you response... You automatically assume that anyone who leaves the door cracked open for the possibility of intelligent design must know nothing of the scientific method. I happen to have a BSc. in Zoology and doctorate. My whole life revolves around science in the health care arena. What you are telling me now is that it is better to say there is no answer than to consider all posibilities.. Is that what you mean to tell me. That is completely against the scientific method (assuming you know something about it).

In the future there is no need to assume religious zealotry on my part... that shoe doesn't fit. To discount any possible answer is against the scientific method and since science hasn't proven God doesn't exist... then that answer is still a possibility whether a person believes in God or not... n'est pas?

Other Comments by bigcanuck

987. Comment #159624 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 4:37 pm

Comment #159618 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 4:21 pm


Yes, Bonzai, I agree that it is up to faithheads to prove their point, but with Stenger came a whole new idea - that we can actually disprove the idea of god scientifically.

I liked it, as it was bold, 'greatly daring' (as the Hitch described it in The Portable Atheist) and I am reluctant to see this type of challenging discourse go. As Dawkins has now said repeatedly: 'A universe with a god is very different scientifically from one without'. I would like to see this scientific challenge to god and gods being relentlessly pursued.

(On the rudeness thing - don't worry, mate! I'm used to receiving abuse, and am ignorant enough simply to return it!)

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

988. Comment #159625 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 4:39 pm

 avatar
bigcanuck: He quite distinctly states that since Darwinists have no answer for how life began, there is obviously large holes in their theory.
All theories are incomplete models of the world we experience. We're constantly making new discoveries and revising our theories.
Ben stein is a very intelligent man and I don't think you'll find anywhere that he discredits science...
Before any scientific study is published, it's sent to experts in the field for review. The reviewers look at the methods, statistics, and conclusions and make comments. Some studies are done poorly and really shouldn't be published. Some just need a bit of tweaking.

Scientists get together annually for large meetings in their area of study, to discuss important work being done. At those meetings, they ask questions and look for limits or flaws in the work presented.

The intelligent design advocates aren't submitting original scientific work to the journals for publication. If they were, and if those papers were being rejected by the journals due to bias rather than genuine problems with the work, Ben Stein would have a point. In fact he'd be a hero for revealing the suppression of important findings by prejudiced individuals. But that's not what's happening.

The few papers that the intelligent design advocates have produced don't stand up to scrutiny. So they're trying to bypass the peer review process. They're taking their case to high school kids and the uninformed. This is cheating!

The peer review process is absolutely essential to science. It's how we keep bad science, pseudoscience, and outright fraud out of the scientific literature.

Ben Stein is probably a very nice person and a well meaning guy. But he got suckered into something that's actually bad for science and bad for our country.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

989. Comment #159626 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 4:40 pm

 avatar
Comment #159619 by Styrer
Actually, Steve, on re-consideration, I have to say I think you are being a bit of a twat about this.

Look - Stenger posits a universe where its own being is more likely than its not being, and goes to some considerable degree to support his notion.


Sorry, but I don't understand what you are saying here.

That you would, sir, seek to dismiss it by means of a 'blog' entry seems to me to be the height of arrogance.


I'm not. I am going to attempt to summarise the consensus in this area of physics.

Is this man not a world-class, world-renowned scientist?


Not really, no. Not in this area. He is simply a good physicist who has published some books.

Would you not expect his findings to have already been found in error if he is simply wrong?


They have. There have been many physicists who have published books with quite different views. They include Martin Rees, Brian Greene and Roger Penrose.

For you to suggest that he presents 'no evidence at all for his idea' is surely a smack to the head of someone whose entire academic career, and hence CONCLUSIONS, have been wholly evidenced driven.


Not at all. Stenger admits this too.

Is your own view, leading to your denunciation of a 'one-universe' guy like Stenger, not simply that there are multiple universes, a view which requires similar levels of evidence as those of Stenger's ideas to support?


I am simply saying that I, personally, find his views unconvincing.

I perceive a double standard here, and I am very displeased with you, Steve, as a result.


I am, at heart, scientist. I don't present scientific views based on popularity. If you have some emotional investment in Stenger's ideas, that, I am afraid, is your problem.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

990. Comment #159632 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 4:52 pm

Dr. Benway,
You show your own prejudiced point of view when you discount a possible option for any scientific experiment. True science can not function in that manner. It is not damaging to science to consider that there might be a higher power who at least orchestrated the beginning of life so that evolution could happen.

What has been damaging in the past are men who have used religion to suppress science, on that I will agree. That is not the same as the possibility of a higher "author of life" it has not been disproved and therefore has to be considered a possibility. I am not one who discounts evolution, but I am a scientist and must leave my own biases out of any experiment. That is my point.

Other Comments by bigcanuck

991. Comment #159633 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 4:53 pm

My whole life revolves around science in the health care arena. What you are telling me now is that it is better to say there is no answer than to consider all posibilities.. Is that what you mean to tell me.


Bigcanuck, do you not see that your notion - brought to young, questioning minds in the classroom and elsewhere - that 'God' replaces all scientific methodologically acquired data is WHOLLY unscientific? Can you not see, sir, that Stein shares this view? Can you not see, sir, that insisting that a god who either is against or for evolution (if 'for', by setting it in motion and seeing over millennia his 'omnipotent' and 'omniscient' will; if 'against', by providing us with so much duplicitous evidence that evolution happened that the only conclusion is a lying god) is in fact ANTI-scientific?

How you can proceed to treat part of your life to the full demands of evidence as a scientist - including, I hope, those parts which require you to be a teacher and not a proselytiser - and another part to irrational, insubstantiated claims made without evidence but with only hope utterly and completely defies me.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

992. Comment #159635 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 5:02 pm

 avatar
It is not damaging to science to consider that there might be a higher power who at least orchestrated the beginning of life so that evolution could happen.


It isn't damaging to geology to consider that the dinosaurs used very big JCBs to move the continents around to ensure their survival in favour of the post-permian mammal-like reptiles.

This "magic" thing is fun!

Other Comments by Steve Zara

993. Comment #159637 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Stryer,
What I see is someone who is so Antigod that it has clouded his scientific judgment. You did not answer my question as to whether or not a scientist must take into considerations all possibilities... You seem to be too concerned that young people are being taught something that you personally disgaree with.


There is absolutely nothing anti-scientific about leaving the door open to intelligent design. Science has not given an answer as to how life began and therefore you are presenting irrational, UNsubstantiated claims anytime you dismiss any possible answer.

Your answer to me shows me that you are concerned about propaganda given to youth and not following the scientific model.

What harm is there in saying... we don't know how life was created initially and then giving them some theories and let them go on there way and formulate their own opinions? I'm not saying that intelligent design is the answer...I'm saying a true scientist leaves all possible answers open.

Other Comments by bigcanuck

994. Comment #159640 by Bonzai on April 12, 2008 at 5:17 pm

Bigcanuck

To discount any possible answer is against the scientific method and since science hasn't proven God doesn't exist...


No, of course not because the God people haven't even come up with a decent existence claim.

If they claim God exists then they have to at least be more specific about its properties, instead of using it as a one size fits all "answer" for all questions that we don't know the answer. Science cannot prove "God" doesn't exist if it is just a stand in for "I don't know".

If they want to claim that God is responsible for such and such, say fine tuning the universe or starting off the big bang, tell us "how" instead of just "God did it by some magic", which again is not an answer because anyone can say that and it has absolutely no content and doesn't advance our knowledge by one iota.

Other Comments by Bonzai

995. Comment #159641 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 5:17 pm

 avatar
bigcanuck: You show your own prejudiced point of view when you discount a possible option for any scientific experiment.
By "option" I assume you mean hypothesis. Yes, a good scientist ought to consider all possible explanations for some phenomenon.

To use an example: imagine a man comes home to find his TV set missing and a window broken. What happened? Well, perhaps someone broke in and robbed him. Or perhaps his housemate took the TV in for repairs, and the window was accidently broken in an unrelated incident. Or perhaps an angel of God took the TV, and the devil broke the window. Or perhaps the neighbor across the street is actually an alien from another planet, and he zapped the TV into oblivion with his ray gun.

After generating a list of as many hypotheses as seems reasonable, the next step is to consider ways to confirm or rule-out these competing explanations.

If you can't imagine any way to rule out some hypotheis, you can ignore it. Most supernatural explanations fall into this category. Because anything supernatural doesn't follow natural laws. We can't predict how it ought to behave, and so we can't test if it is involved or not.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

996. Comment #159642 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 5:18 pm

 avatarComment #159637 by bigcanuck
What harm is there in saying... we don't know how life was created initially and then giving them some theories and let them go on there way and formulate their own opinions? I'm not saying that intelligent design is the answer...I'm saying a true scientist leaves all possible answers open.


Ok, so let's look at all possible answers.

It was a result of a sweep of the tail of Nadreck of Palain VII.
It was the result of the blue circles from the future of mankind, attempting to collapse the state of the vacuum.
It was a consequence of the paradoxical presence of the Toclafane

(No prizes for the sci-fi references)

Sorry, but I am getting tired of all these "open answers". Perhaps we could save time, and just say that "Jesus' dad did it"? Well, that is fine by me, but I would like some evidence.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

997. Comment #159644 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 5:19 pm

I am, at heart, scientist. I don't present scientific views based on popularity. If you have some emotional investment in Stenger's ideas, that, I am afraid, is your problem.


Yes, I agree, it would certainly be my problem. However, I have never had any 'emotional' investment in Stenger's ideas other than that his ideas have lent some support in my engagements with theists that have shut them up. Call that 'emotional', Steve, if you will; but I suspect that you, and very many other members here, would seek to achieve the same.

I suppose that I am a little irritated that while Stenger's views are the very cause of - as I requested - your investigations, you have failed here, on this thread, on this website of reason and rationality, to offer anything more than a 'he has provided no evidence at all for his idea' together with a promise that your denunciation of his ideas will appear not here, but on a 'blog', presumably your own.

If you wouldn't mind, please post your comments here, too. I asked you the question here, and so I'd like an answer to it here.

Unreasonable?

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

998. Comment #159645 by Mark Smith on April 12, 2008 at 5:26 pm

Bigcanuck
You are suggesting science needs to leave the door open to any possible answer. Presumably, you mean it should leave the door open to any hypothesis that seeks to explain any particular phenomena, which hypothesis will be tested, etc etc.

But the problem is that ID is not a hypothesis in this sense. It doesn't seek to explain anything. Instead ID proponents do two things. (1) They point to phenomenon X and say it can't be explained by anything currently on offer by science. (2) Therefore, goddidit (or, strictly speaking, 'an intelligent designer whose existence and nature we have no knowledge of did it').

It seems to me you are confusing the need for science always to be open to new hypotheses with something else.

As Dr Benway has been saying in other threads, it is about the papers.

[Edit: wow, I am way too slow. Bonzai, Dr B and Steve Z all posted good answers while I was writing this]

Other Comments by Mark Smith

999. Comment #159646 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 5:26 pm

Well and that is what I expected to find on this page. I shake my head at the bible thumpers who discount anything scientific that doesn't fit into their own personal little reality. You too have created your own little reality that is influenced equally as much by your own personal bias.

There is something to be said for balance and openmindedness. Ridiculing an option that doesn't jive with your own personal belief system is no way to investigate true science.

I guess there are radicals on both ends of the scale.

Other Comments by bigcanuck

1000. Comment #159649 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 5:31 pm

 avatar
However, I have never had any 'emotional' investment in Stenger's ideas other than that his ideas have lent some support in my engagements with theists that have shut them up.


I realise this, and I have found that rather worrying. It was why I was mildly concerned about some aspects of Paula Kirby's otherwise outstanding "Fleabytes" review.

There is no such thing as "atheist-friendly physics". There is just physics. We, as hopefully rational people, have to accept what physics in general shows us, not just what one or two atheist physicists write. We should not trawl the bookshelves of WH Smith for popular physics books that we agree with and assume that what is within those books is what most physicists believe.

If we pick books that support our beliefs and quote them, we are just as guilty of quote mining as those who pick bible verses to support their views of morality.

Other Comments by Steve Zara
Reload Comments | Back to Top


Comment Entry: Please Login

Register a new account

Username:

Password:

Adjust font size: small font large font
Search:
RSS Subscribe

"If this book doesn't change the world -- we're all screwed."

-Penn (Penn & Teller)

The God Delusion

The God Delusion

by Richard Dawkins

Over 1.5 million copies sold

Read the 1st Chapter!

Kindle Edition

amazon book sense borders barnes and noble powells

Update Log