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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 1001 - 1050 of 9332 |

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1001. Comment #159651 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 5:34 pm

 avatarI'm not clear from your post 1002, bigcanuck, what you mean by "You too have created your own little reality that is influenced equally as much by your own personal bias."

It's not enough simply to consider a wide range of hypotheses. No scientist writes a paper saying, "could be this; could be that; the end."

The hypotheses must past some test before anyone takes them seriously.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1002. Comment #159655 by Logicel on April 12, 2008 at 5:43 pm

 avatarMark Smith writes: But the problem is that ID is not a hypothesis in this sense. It doesn't seek to explain anything.
_______

Well said. ID, unlike scientific theories, has no predicting or explanatory power. It is dead on arrival. Toss it in the non-science bin. The Dover case judge clearly concluded that ID is religion, not science.

Other Comments by Logicel

1003. Comment #159657 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 6:01 pm

Comment #159649 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 5:31 pm

However, I have never had any 'emotional' investment in Stenger's ideas other than that his ideas have lent some support in my engagements with theists that have shut them up.


I realise this, and I have found that rather worrying. It was why I was mildly concerned about some aspects of Paula Kirby's otherwise outstanding "Fleabytes" review.

There is no such thing as "atheist-friendly physics". There is just physics. We, as hopefully rational people, have to accept what physics in general shows us, not just what one or two atheist physicists write. We should not trawl the bookshelves of WH Smith for popular physics books that we agree with and assume that what is within those books is what most physicists believe.

If we pick books that support our beliefs and quote them, we are just as guilty of quote mining as those who pick bible verses to support their views of morality.


It's been a long time coming - the final recipient was not 'pre-ordained' - but it is you, Steve, who receives my carefully allotted 'TUSH AND FIE'.

You were WORRIED, sir, that certain findings may negate or confirm certain commentators' opinions? Oh fucking grow up.

Steve, I have enormous respect for your scientific acumen, but I am increasingly finding your acquiescent, 'don't upset anyone', 'I don't hate anyone, honest, cos I don't love anyone either' ethos behind your statements a real fucking pain in the arse.

You are absolutely correct that science is above any interpretations you fear twats like me may make; but you must also know that science shows that twattish, faith-drenched assertions are equally to be driven to marginalisation by their very utterance and questionable hold on notions of faith BY SCIENCE ITSELF.

When, sir, are you going to take a fucking side in all of this, and say what you fucking mean?

It was why I was mildly concerned about some aspects of Paula Kirby's otherwise outstanding "Fleabytes" review.


As far as I know, it is I who was the only fucker to express disagreement with Paula's writing of her piece on that thread. I received some flak for stating my opinion that, because Dawkins had already said it all, it need never have been written.

BUT - you, sir, made NOT A SINGLE CRITICLE REMARK, as I recall, apart from nauseating, sycophantic expressions of sheer approbation, of Paula's critique. If I am wrong, please re-direct me to your criticism on that thread. But to offer here, on an entirely different thread, your assertion above is to weaken your claim to asserting anything apposite HERE.

Come on, Steve. Persuade me I'm wrong.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1004. Comment #159665 by Jon_Sociologist on April 12, 2008 at 6:44 pm

 avatar
Comment #159579 by bigcanuck:
He quite distinctly states that since Darwinists have no answer for how life began, there is obviously large holes in their theory.

He is quite distinctly wrong or lying on this count, I've already answered this one so I'll quote my earlier answer:
Comment #135126 by Jon_Sociologist on The Salamander's Tale thread:

Astrophysical theories show us how organic chemicals are a common by product of stars. Stars that existed prior to our solar system exploded seeding our solar system with the chemicals see so prevalent throughout our solar system.

Chemistry theories and observations show us how some of these organic chemicals have a tendency to bind weakly in specific patterns (DNA and RNA), separating and then duplicating themselves, giving us an explanation for the earliest DNA or possibly RNA life forms. The earliest life forms would have been nothing more than a self-replicating chemical reaction: bare DNA/RNA. Similar life forms are still around today in the form of viruses.

It is also important to point out that the Theory of Evolution is explains how life evolved after it came to exist, so yes inherently by the strictest definition of the word "Darwinism" takes no position on the beginnings of life. This however ignores the scientific ideas of abiogenesis ("the study of how life on Earth might have emerged from non-life"). Have you not come across any of these ideas in your studies for your BSc in zoology (you didn't specify what your PhD is in)?

Comment #159620 by bigcanuck:
To discount any possible answer is against the scientific method and since science hasn't proven God doesn't exist... then that answer is still a possibility whether a person believes in God or not... n'est pas?

I think that most Atheists here do not say that god is absolutely impossible. I myself for example am a very strong Atheist in that I cannot see any means by which a creator god is possible. However, I am willing to acknowledge that such a being might exist by means that I have not seen. But, the evidence at hand leaves the possibility of god as sufficiently remote as to be unworthy of consideration. I am also Atheist/Agnostic about the possibility of an elephant being in my front yard, it's possible, one could have escaped from the zoo and made its way to my house, but the possibility is so remote that I am not about to get up and look out the window to make sure. This brings to mind one of my favourite quotes from the quotes section:
"There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"

Richard Dawkins

You are right that we cannot, to date, absolutely rule out the possibility of a creator god. This fact does not make 50/50 agnosticism a reasonable and scientific position. In the absence of sufficient evidence the default position of science on any given subject is open-minded disbelief. We must be prepared to accept any possibility in the event of confirming evidence, but we must be sceptical until such evidence is confirmed.

Another thing that needs mentioning is that there currently is no alternative scientific theory to the Theory of Evolution. I have addressed this elsewhere as well:
I am an atheist because I believe that the scientific evidence at hand strongly implies that there is no creator god. In the debate on the genesis of the universe I think an important point gets missed. In answer to the question 'how did the universe come to be?' the secular humanist answers: the Big Bang, the Theory of Evolution, etc. The creationist answers 'god did it'. The point that gets missed is that this doesn't answer the question. The question was how not who. The comeback that god is omnipotent also doesn't answer anything. If we stipulate that god is omnipotent and could do it however he wanted still doesn't answer how he actually did do it. So it is not simply a matter that there is no BELIEVABLE alternative to scientific theory to explain the universe, there is no alternative theory at all.
Neither ID nor creationism offer any explanation of how any supposed creator did anything. We are left with no explanations but another question: where did this supposed god come from? Even if you accept the Theory of Evolution etc. but still cling to the idea that some god is behind it all, how is god exercising this control? As I have asked elsewhere: What exact force do you think god used to shape our DNA? Did he use electromagnetism, gravity, weak nuclear force, or strong nuclear force? What was the mechanism used to generate this force? Did he use something akin to an electron microscope to move things around? Did he use incredibly tiny tweezers? ID/creationism explains nothing.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

1005. Comment #159670 by Jon_Sociologist on April 12, 2008 at 6:53 pm

 avatar
Comment #159619 by Styrer-:
Actually, Steve, on re-consideration, I have to say I think you are being a bit of a twat about this.

Wow, that's a bit asinine isn't it? Steve goes out and does research on the subject and you call him a twat for what he comes up with.

Comment #159619 by Styrer-:
That you would, sir, seek to dismiss it by means of a 'blog' entry seems to me to be the height of arrogance.

Is this man not a world-class, world-renowned scientist? Would you not expect his findings to have already been found in error if he is simply wrong?

Might I suggest that someone using an argument from authority logical fallacy probably shouldn't be calling another person a "twat" (pot, kettle you know the drill).

Comment #159619 by Styrer-:
I perceive a double standard here, and I am very displeased with you, Steve, as a result.

Whether you or anyone else agrees with Steve's findings, the manner in which you expressed your displeasure was both ignorant and rude at best. I would also point out that you asked. And you were a serious prick about the answer. If you aren't prepared to deal with an answer you don't like then you shouldn't ask the question. Whether or not you agree with Steve Zara, he stated his position politely (and at your request), for which you slapped him in the face. I for one, believe you owe Steve a most humble apology.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

1006. Comment #159675 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Whether you or anyone else agrees with Steve's findings, the manner in which you expressed your displeasure was both ignorant and rude at best. I would also point out that you asked. And you were a serious prick about the answer. If you aren't prepared to deal with an answer you don't like then you shouldn't ask the question. Whether or not you agree with Steve Zara, he stated his position politely (and at your request), for which you slapped him in the face. I for one, believe you owe Steve a most humble apology.


Well, Jon, your laying into me as a defence for my laying into Steve is rather nice, I must say.

Didn't think there were many of us left, going by the flat-out shite so many members tolerate until someone says 'enough is enough'. Good man.

But that you are totally off your little protecting trolly to jump in here and protect the eminent Steve shows only that you are not aware that the scientific fucker, whom I hold in highest regard, must be subjected as all others to questioning about their propositions.

Steve can amply defend himself against a presumptuous upstart like myself, and you should grant him the chance, before entering the arena, to do so.

Whereas you, sir, seem to me to be a self-seeking advertiser of his own occasionally worthwhile, verbose posts, for whom passion such as my own, one way or another, may prove useful to endorse your rather pedantically unengaging, perhaps correct, posts as an aside.

Trust me - you may yet require such!

Let it not be unsaid that Steve's approbation of your comments is of absolute irrelevance to the charges I've made against him. They speak to neither the veracity of your complaint nor to its substance. In the same way, your flouncing in here to protect the word of Steve against such a guttersnipe as myself holds no sway whatsoever in Steve's EMPIRICAL finding of my assertions, one way or the other.

To return to your dubious phrasing, Jon, and to the substance of your post - do think on, you rather endearing prick and fuckwit.

I await Steve's comments, as I did before you, Jon, ever made your almost imperceptible squeak. I regret that my ears are so formed that I heard it.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1007. Comment #159686 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 8:48 pm

996. Comment #159637 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 5:04 pm

Stryer,
What I see is someone who is so Antigod that it has clouded his scientific judgment. You did not answer my question as to whether or not a scientist must take into considerations all possibilities... You seem to be too concerned that young people are being taught something that you personally disgaree with.


There is absolutely nothing anti-scientific about leaving the door open to intelligent design. Science has not given an answer as to how life began and therefore you are presenting irrational, UNsubstantiated claims anytime you dismiss any possible answer.

Your answer to me shows me that you are concerned about propaganda given to youth and not following the scientific model.

What harm is there in saying... we don't know how life was created initially and then giving them some theories and let them go on there way and formulate their own opinions? I'm not saying that intelligent design is the answer...I'm saying a true scientist leaves all possible answers open.


You seem, sir, to at least be trying to engage with atheists and anti-theists alike here.

Many theists who come here simply wish to propound their views that 'God did everything' and then disappear.

If, sir, I may take you to be of the more engaging type, such that I am not wasting my time in responding to you, then I thank you.

May I ask, sir, if your notion of the existence of God is negotiable? Could you, by any evidence, be persuaded that your chosen deity does not exist?

If you insist, no - then there is nothing we can say to each other which will alter this. My offerings to you that you might as well, without evidence, believe in the Magic Mars Monkey who instructs all people to eat chocolate, and be nice to fellow chocolate eaters, can be justified only as much as you state your god is there, listening to all you hear, ignoring some, acting on other bits, or not, of what you ask for.

If you truly KNOW, without evidence being required whatsoever for your faith, then I am sorry to say that I find you not only a poor scientist but a human being to whom rational consideration must stop being given.

I wish I could persuade you of what you are missing out on by not seeing this world, and our part in it, as finite, beautiful, and more awe-inspiring than anything you can find in any holy text.

You are placing your whole life on the line, and that of your kids, and you are doing so on the basis that your lack of evidence for your god is evidence enough.

How can this be explained? My idea: it simply cannot.

Please stop being restricted by myths. They are to be appreciated as literature, not as truth.

It's a wonderful world and universe. Just take a real look. You don't need metaphor, or a sense you are 'sinful', or that you are in any way small, pathetic or needy.

You are your own best reason for being here. You and your genes have earned getting to where you are now.

Enjoy it.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1008. Comment #159695 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 9:44 pm

I am sorry for the double-post, but I really have more to say.

If your god is real, and he thereby provides comfort for you, does he really take away your pain when your Dad dies? Or when your wife dies, in a car crash? Is the death of your friend, at the hands of cancer, any more bearable because of a belief in your God than because of the notion that there is NO god?

Of course not. The pain of sheer loss is EQUAL in its intensity.

I have known religious friends, who have tried over years to bring me to Jesus, wracked and twisted and sobbing and shouting, rendered hysterical, because they have lost a loved one.

No, sir. Your god, who notionally separates us all, on death, to either extreme pain or extreme pleasure, is not worthy of my attention. That your lot INSIST on bring the greatest theoretical cunt in the universe to visit MY relationships, MY ideas of what is good and bad, MY LIFE as I live and breathe it is the most DESPICABLE, HATEFUL, IMMORAL idea that humankind has ever had to endure.

We may, indeed, not outlast you fucking faithfuelled scum-laden shits. But, at least for me, it will not be through lack of trying.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1009. Comment #159703 by Jon_Sociologist on April 12, 2008 at 10:38 pm

 avatar@Styrer-

Why the hell would we want you on our side? We have Irate Atheist and The Reverend Dark to rain vitriol upon deserving heads. And we have the advantage that, from what I've seen, they limit themselves to deserving heads. You're just lashing out viciously at anyone who disagrees with you.

Any points I've seen you score you've immediately fucked up (sometimes even while making the point). You admit to going overboard and to being a "guttersnipe" and yet completely fail to reign yourself in. You correctly point out that belief based upon personal desire but in the absence of evidence is both unreasonable and unscientific. But don't you think your words ring a little hollow when you yourself are so clearly ignoring evidence that you have accepted?

Being an unjustified asshole is one thing, but realizing that you're an unjustified asshole and happily wallowing in it is far worse. Everyone fucks up occasionally and says things that are rude, unfair and unjustified. But to realize a mistake and continue on with it is incompetent, and I daresay betrays a poor grasp on the concept of a scientific mind. How can you fault someone for failing to take the correct steps in light of the evidence, when you yourself so blatantly do exactly the same thing?

I assume you know who clearmind/wooter/selfishmind is. I have honestly tried to encourage clearmind to continue posting here because his every post damages the creationist cause. You may be smarter than clearmind but your posts are just as damaging to our cause. You said I might need your help someday, and you're right. In fact I, and all of the other Atheists here waging the battle for hearts and minds, need your help today. And the best help you can give us is to shut the fuck up. You may have a hard time wrapping your head around this, but being right, or even intelligent, doesn't stop you from being an idiot.

Nothing I have seen from bigcanuck indicates to me that he could not be convinced and brought over to our side. But your hostile and openly hypocritical posts are far more likely to alienate both bigcanuck and any lurking neutral witnesses. So please shut your troll mouth and let the reasonable people talk.

It is too early to tell for sure, but bigcanuck seems like a reasonable, rational individual, who happens to disagree with us. Pointing out why his position is not in fact correct, and that his ideas might not seem so reasonable if examined from another perspective might be better if not followed by vague auguries about how he is putting his life and the lives of his children in danger. I find myself recalling a conversation with another "prophet" that came in here slinging shit, and my response to him applies equally to you: "So did you get that from Nostradumbass.com, or do you have any evidence to back up your prognostications?" Just in case your psychic abilities are not up to divining which comment I am referring to, it is the following: "You are placing your whole life on the line, and that of your kids, and you are doing so on the basis that your lack of evidence for your god is evidence enough" posted in Comment #159686. Spewing such evidence free hypocrisy, and then following it up with a snotty little "Best, Styrer" is "help" that I can do without, so kindly fuck off.

Best,
Jon


Comment #159695 by Styrer-:
That your lot INSIST on bring the greatest theoretical cunt in the universe to visit MY relationships, MY ideas of what is good and bad, MY LIFE as I live and breathe it is the most DESPICABLE, HATEFUL, IMMORAL idea that humankind has ever had to endure.

We may, indeed, not outlast you fucking faithfuelled scum-laden shits. But, at least for me, it will not be through lack of trying.

What the fuck good are your "ideas of what is good and bad" when you blatantly ignore them? Shut your stupid mouth, and quit assuming that bigcanuck is a "fucking faithfuelled scum-laden shit" when his posts make clear that he is not a fundy, is likely either a 50/50 Agnostic, an Agnostic-christian, or an Agnostic deist, not to mention the other myriad possibilities. What the hell are you trying to accomplish you fucking moron? Do you think your honey-laden posts are going to convince anyone? Well, I have news for you; they are, but they're not going to be getting anyone to join our side. If you need the catharsis of spewing such hate at random people might I suggest not clicking the "submit" button, let it out if you must, but let it drop without actually posting it.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

1010. Comment #159710 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 11:40 pm

Comment #159703 by Jon_Sociologist on April 12, 2008 at 10:38 pm

@Styrer-

Why the hell would we want you on our side? We have Irate Atheist and The Reverend Dark to rain vitriol upon deserving heads. And we have the advantage that, from what I've seen, they limit themselves to deserving heads. You're just lashing out viciously at anyone who disagrees with you.

Any points I've seen you score you've immediately fucked up (sometimes even while making the point). You admit to going overboard and to being a "guttersnipe" and yet completely fail to reign yourself in. You correctly point out that belief based upon personal desire but in the absence of evidence is both unreasonable and unscientific. But don't you think your words ring a little hollow when you yourself are so clearly ignoring evidence that you have accepted?

Being an unjustified asshole is one thing, but realizing that you're an unjustified asshole and happily wallowing in it is far worse. Everyone fucks up occasionally and says things that are rude, unfair and unjustified. But to realize a mistake and continue on with it is incompetent, and I daresay betrays a poor grasp on the concept of a scientific mind. How can you fault someone for failing to take the correct steps in light of the evidence, when you yourself so blatantly do exactly the same thing?

I assume you know who clearmind/wooter/selfishmind is. I have honestly tried to encourage clearmind to continue posting here because his every post damages the creationist cause. You may be smarter than clearmind but your posts are just as damaging to our cause. You said I might need your help someday, and you're right. In fact I, and all of the other Atheists here waging the battle for hearts and minds, need your help today. And the best help you can give us is to shut the fuck up. You may have a hard time wrapping your head around this, but being right, or even intelligent, doesn't stop you from being an idiot.

Nothing I have seen from bigcanuck indicates to me that he could not be convinced and brought over to our side. But your hostile and openly hypocritical posts are far more likely to alienate both bigcanuck and any lurking neutral witnesses. So please shut your troll mouth and let the reasonable people talk.

It is too early to tell for sure, but bigcanuck seems like a reasonable, rational individual, who happens to disagree with us. Pointing out why his position is not in fact correct, and that his ideas might not seem so reasonable if examined from another perspective might be better if not followed by vague auguries about how he is putting his life and the lives of his children in danger. I find myself recalling a conversation with another "prophet" that came in here slinging shit, and my response to him applies equally to you: "So did you get that from Nostradumbass.com, or do you have any evidence to back up your prognostications?" Just in case your psychic abilities are not up to divining which comment I am referring to, it is the following: "You are placing your whole life on the line, and that of your kids, and you are doing so on the basis that your lack of evidence for your god is evidence enough" posted in Comment #159686. Spewing such evidence free hypocrisy, and then following it up with a snotty little "Best, Styrer" is "help" that I can do without, so kindly fuck off.

Best,
Jon



Comment #159695 by Styrer-:
That your lot INSIST on bring the greatest theoretical cunt in the universe to visit MY relationships, MY ideas of what is good and bad, MY LIFE as I live and breathe it is the most DESPICABLE, HATEFUL, IMMORAL idea that humankind has ever had to endure.

We may, indeed, not outlast you fucking faithfuelled scum-laden shits. But, at least for me, it will not be through lack of trying.

What the fuck good are your "ideas of what is good and bad" when you blatantly ignore them? Shut your stupid mouth, and quit assuming that bigcanuck is a "fucking faithfuelled scum-laden shit" when his posts make clear that he is not a fundy, is likely either a 50/50 Agnostic, an Agnostic-christian, or an Agnostic deist, not to mention the other myriad possibilities. What the hell are you trying to accomplish you fucking moron? Do you think your honey-laden posts are going to convince anyone? Well, I have news for you; they are, but they're not going to be getting anyone to join our side. If you need the catharsis of spewing such hate at random people might I suggest not clicking the "submit" button, let it out if you must, but let it drop without actually posting it.


What an extraordinarily long rant. I trust you feel better for having posted it. Did you find the 'submit' button without difficulty?

You really do not like being called 'verbose', do you? It is heartening to see that your response to such a criticism is to make yet another longwinded speech here.

But do tell me - if you simply think me a wanker, why not say fuck off? Or, rather more challengingly for you, who seems to like the sight of his own text, ignore me altogether and press on with your other, much more important engagements here and on other threads?

I really am not sure of the letter of your word, Jon. You strike me as someone who has a good deal to say. But you also come across to me as rather a pedant, quoting masses of text in order to illustrate your ability to dissect it, and not always seeing the real point behind your selection and dissection.

In the cut and thrust of debate here, there is a lot of bollocks. But I must take issue with your comment:

'You may be smarter than clearmind but your posts are just as damaging to our cause. '

If I thought that my participation here was as damaging as that which faithheads represent in the world at large, then I would have gone by now. In fact, I probably would never have found this site at all, or felt so glad that I have.

It is strange that I now find myself responding to an anally retentive, self-aggrandizing, dismissive fuckwit such as yourself in my attempt to say why I like this site. Its ethos is, after all, so completely different from your own.

Think on, Jon.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1011. Comment #159713 by epeeist on April 13, 2008 at 12:14 am

 avatarComment #159579 by bigcanuck

Ben Stein is not trying to damage anything scientific. This is what I'm having a problem with. He quite distinctly states that since Darwinists have no answer for how life began, there is obviously large holes in their theory.

Comment #159620 by bigcanuck
I happen to have a BSc. in Zoology and doctorate.
You have qualifications in biology (where from?), you call evolutionary biologists "Darwinists" and you either don't know the difference between abiogenesis and evolution or are prepared to accept that Stein is dishonestly trying to conflate the two.

Something doesn't quite ring true I'm afraid.

Other Comments by epeeist

1012. Comment #159719 by Steve Zara on April 13, 2008 at 1:02 am

 avatarStyrer-
BUT - you, sir, made NOT A SINGLE CRITICLE REMARK, as I recall, apart from nauseating, sycophantic expressions of sheer approbation, of Paula's critique.


It deserved huge praise. I have made efforts to write, and even review a "flea" book, and I know the work involved.

I did think of raising the issue of Stenger's work, and indeed posted something, which I later retracted. However, it seemed rather crass to nit-pick so quickly after Paula had put so much work in and produced such a formidable contribution.

However, I have raised this issue before and since many times.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

1013. Comment #159722 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 1:22 am

 avatarBit late sorry..

Comment #159533 by myarbrough61

Yeah, I always hated the rather crushing "Dust to Dust" thing the church would do to keep us humble. Far nicer, on a clear night, to look up at the heavens and sing to yourself THAT Joni Mitchell song.


http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/1999/06/990625080416.htm

Other Comments by phil rimmer

1014. Comment #159723 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 1:30 am

Comment #159719 by Steve Zara on April 13, 2008 at 1:02 am


You know, Steve, every time I think that I am getting rather too hot under the collar because of the sheer faith-driven shite that is taking place out there, because of wise men who will not speak, as I see it, strongly enough against it, I begin to think that I am all hot and bothered for very little.

Until the next second brings me another view of the world, being driven to the abyss by superstitious supernaturalists continuing UNABATED and WITHOUT any of the lily-livered notions of peace to all that have stepped in my way to be noticed.

It is a constant battle, for which I harden myself on hearing of the latest faith-driven atrocity. They are all around, when you've a mind to see them.

And so you come along, with your formidable arsenal of scientific know-how, insisting that members like me are rather too hard, that we do not understand enough, that we should condemn rather less.

And then I learn that you had a point - EVEN ON THIS FORUM - which you decided you needed to 'retract'. In this instance, it was to do with Paula's piece. You REFRAINED from adding your real view on a topic because 'it seemed rather crass to nit-pick so quickly after Paula had put so much work in.'

This attitude, and this action, absolutely flabbergast me. WHEN, sir, will it be quite ok for you to tell us what you think? What you have discovered?

You will find that verbosity-driven members like Jon_Sociologist will support you in your reticence, I suspect. You will no doubt find others. You may even glean a rather pleasing 'sitting on the fence' feeling entirely by yourself.

But I've had enough, my friend. That you refuse to take a stance - and a clear one - in the ongoing war being waged between rationality and unreason, and that you are continuing to cite SCIENCE as the very mechanism by which you keep to such 'middle of the road' views (and DESPITE the notion that Dawkins is surely now hoarse with its uttering, that 'a universe with a god is a very different universe from one without') suggests to me someone who is losing the fucking plot.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1015. Comment #159724 by Steve Zara on April 13, 2008 at 1:37 am

 avatarComment #159723 by Styrer-
But I've had enough, my friend. That you refuse to take a stance - and a clear one - in the ongoing war being waged between rationality and unreason, and that you are continuing to cite SCIENCE as the very mechanism by which you keep to such 'middle of the road' views (and DESPITE the notion that Dawkins is surely now hoarse with its uttering, that 'a universe with a god is a very different universe from one without') suggests to me someone who is losing the fucking plot.


I have never really understood that statement of Dawkins. A universe with a God who did very little could look just like the one we are in. The reason to reject the idea of God, in my view, is Occam's Razor - that there are far simpler explanations for what we see.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

1016. Comment #159728 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 2:13 am

 avatar
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
You really do not like being called 'verbose', do you? It is heartening to see that your response to such a criticism is to make yet another longwinded speech here.

Actually it gives me a jolly good stiffy, hence the "yet another longwinded speech".

Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
Or, rather more challengingly for you, who seems to like the sight of his own text,

I do. I really do. It's wonderful to be able to point to some of these posts proudly, and show that I am fighting the good fight against ignorance and superstition. Speaking of which, in answer to your questions:
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
if you simply think me a wanker, why not say fuck off?
Apparently you are having trouble reading all of my verbosity so I'll just copy and paste a brief part of Comment #159703 for you:
Spewing such evidence free hypocrisy, and then following it up with a snotty little "Best, Styrer" is "help" that I can do without, so kindly fuck off.

Best,
Jon
(emphasis added)

Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
ignore me altogether and press on with your other, much more important engagements here and on other threads?

Because neighbour, I am fighting the battle for hearts and minds, and I always try to engage those who are working against my side. And you are such an individual. And thus I must try to either insult you enough that you leave, talk enough sense into you that you reform or at least shut up, or piss you off enough that you lend your anchor weight to drowning the other side's swimmers.

Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
But you also come across to me as rather a pedant, quoting masses of text in order to illustrate your ability to dissect it, and not always seeing the real point behind your selection and dissection.

Is this pouting about the big meanie destroying your argument by dissecting it to show that the apparent "real point" is actually nonsensical due to being composed of many nonsensical little parts?

Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
If I thought that my participation here was as damaging as that which faithheads represent in the world at large, then I would have gone by now.

Actually I doubt this statement. You already pointed out in Comment #159675 that I was correct in telling you that "enough is enough", and yet you insist on bulling ahead and being an asshole to everyone.

Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
Its ethos is, after all, so completely different from your own.

Really! You find a website that seems to be designed with the goal of waging the war for hearts and minds that has ~10 or more articles on the Expelled controversy, to be short-winded and targeted at something else do you?

Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
Think on, Jon.

I will. And I'd like to invite you to start. Perhaps you can start by reviewing your interaction with bigcanuck. Ask yourself questions such as:
What did I hope to accomplish?
(I can't help you on that one, unless it really was your goal to just be an asshole to someone attempting to engage us in reasonable debate)
Was my approach likely to help or harm this goal?
(If you were trying to ensure that bigcanuck was alienated from our side, then you did great, and you're an idiot)
Are there likely to be any effects outside of this goal?
(Presumably anyone observing your interaction would find your posts unconvincing and would almost certainly not want to be associated with someone like you)

I must add that it would be rather bizarre to consider me any sort of Steve Zara sycophant, as I have "locked horns" with him in the past. And on the current issue regarding Stenger I am largely neutral. I thought I might remain undecided in my opinion on Steve's position until he finished formulating it. I might even wait until then to decide whether I should start calling anyone a "twat" or throwing a temper tantrum if Steve undermines my argument that: "something can emerge from nothing". However, Steve's conduct in those debates I have had with him was impeccable, and he has earned my respect and admiration. He understood my arguments, and when he disagreed he either revised his position if I convinced him or challenged me into revising mine (often a little of both). He refrained from what I am certain was in some cases great temptation to start name calling. Compare this with your behaviour Styrer- (was the "-" due to some seizure?), you have admitted to being a rabid shit slinging monkey, and yet you continue on blithely smearing everyone around with the feces you use for brains, as if this were of no consequence. This is not the mark of a reasonable, rational, scientifically minded individual. You are the very epitome of many of the stereotypes that creationists attempt to saddle us with (doggedly determined to cling to wrong ideas even while you actually accept the "truth", and viciously rude to enemy and friend alike). You are one pus encrusted saddle sore that I'd very dearly like to get rid of or at least treat.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

1017. Comment #159729 by AllanW on April 13, 2008 at 2:16 am

 avatarBefore the Verbiose Wars started, bigcanuck made a few points about the scientific method and openness. These were well answered by Steve, Dr Benway and Mark Smith (as well as by, I suspect, a large number of people reading this thread who weren't as quick to post).

bigcanuck came back with comment #159646 in which he revealed that his own personal, belief-based prejudices have clouded his mind and a firm understanding of the scientific method (open to all options, sheesh!).

bigcanuck;

We haven't created our own reality here, we only try to deal with the one we all experience; stop projecting.

You have a blatantly skewed view of the scientific method that has been carefully explained to you above. Do you see where the 'Goddidit' explanation falls down?

Nobody ridicules hypothetical options in scientific papers using just personal prejudices or biases; they do it by pointing out the failures in good scientific practices and methods. There is a difference.

The ID crowd submit none of their 'science' to be evaluated through the normal channels so scientists smell a rat.

Equally, non-scientists should be taught to smell this rat by demonstrating just how underhand, lying and distorting the ID crowd's methods, tactics and content are.

'Teach the controversy' indeed. You have been suckered by your personal, religious viewpoint my friend; shame on you for trashing your science degree and falling for their hogwash.

Other Comments by AllanW

1018. Comment #159730 by Quine on April 13, 2008 at 2:16 am

 avatarMy take on Prof. Dawkins statement is that he has in mind the typical intercessionary deity or deities that we see in common religion. Of course, if the proposal is about a deity that just starts the Univese off, and then dies or has no interaction, it might not look different at all.

Other Comments by Quine

1019. Comment #159731 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 2:27 am

 avatarOh excellent. More arguing verging on becoming another slanging match. Terrific.

Interestingly, the ongoing RM/DR dialogue has now been moved to its own thread on FCOS. In his latest response, DR says the following in reference to RD.net-

In fact in general it is very confused and muddled thinking which seems to be largely driven by emotion and feeling


While I don't agree with the bulk of DR's post, it does seem to me that this thread is being increasingly fuelled by emotion and feeling, so DR actually has a point there. This is the second thread that has gone in this direction recently. I hope that it is just a temporary aberration.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1020. Comment #159732 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 2:31 am

Spewing such evidence free hypocrisy, and then following it up with a snotty little "Best, Styrer" is "help" that I can do without, so kindly fuck off.


Is it, Jon, really beyond you to delimit yourself to this?

Thank you, in any case, for such a longwinded, trite, semi-banal (there was a hint of good sense re. Stenger) post.

You simply illustrated my point.

Do mind the step on your way out.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1021. Comment #159734 by Vaal on April 13, 2008 at 2:33 am

 avatarQuetzalcoatl

DR said it is very confused and muddled thinking which seems to be largely driven by emotion and feeling


Man! I nearly spat into my coffee reading that. You have just made my Sunday morning. :-)

Something about removing the plank from your own eye comes to mind.

Other Comments by Vaal

1022. Comment #159735 by Steve Zara on April 13, 2008 at 2:36 am

 avatar
Oh excellent. More arguing verging on becoming another slanging match. Terrific.


A good solution would be for those involved to take the argument to private message.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

1023. Comment #159736 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 2:37 am

 avatarVaal-

indeed, but in this case his view seems to be supported by the way this thread is going.

Here's a link to the entire post. I'm afraid it's mostly more of the usual:

http://www.fcosonline.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=91e31ccdf2f8e66b1beef2e1cbaa1005&topic=25.msg257#msg257

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1024. Comment #159737 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 2:40 am

 avatarSteve-

Private Message for you.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1025. Comment #159739 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 2:49 am

 avatar
You automatically assume that anyone who leaves the door cracked open for the possibility of intelligent design must know nothing of the scientific method.


Ken Miller on ID: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg
'nuff said!

I am of the understanding that no christian evolutionists (like Ken Miller)were included in the film. Wonder why that was? Oh yeah, it would piss all over the notion that you have to be an atheist to believe in evolution

Other Comments by BillySands

1026. Comment #159740 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 2:51 am

 avatarRe Comment #159735:

Good call Steve. While I believe that he deserves a good public thrashing (preferably with blunt heavy objects), it has perhaps gone beyond the pale here. Although I feel it is important to publicly condemn the sort of random vicious lashing out that I'm seeing around here. I think the site administrators should probably not be allowing the spiralling personal attack fests such as the one Styrer- and I have been engaged in. Or notably the ones involving clearmind/wooter, someone being a fucktard does not necessarily mean that we should all get away with calling them one. I've been picking up some terrible habits here, and it's hard not to let them bleed into my other arenas (it's just so darn fun letting my id loose on someone).

Sorry guys, I'll go kick him in private (or perhaps metaphorically in the privates).

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

1027. Comment #159741 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 2:53 am

Thanks for the link, Quetz.

The first thing that strikes is: poor Richard Morgan. He's in a fucked up state at the moment, and I wish him my fondest in getting over his loneliness.

Second - the soothing words of David Robertson. Lovely.

Lastly - well, yes, there are arguments here.

Thank Dawkins for that.

If there weren't, I'd know I was in the wrong place.

Bicker on, people. As much as we can try, we'll never in any case emulate the enormity of fighting which the religious community can muster all on its own.

But I'll give it a good fucking go.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1028. Comment #159743 by Quine on April 13, 2008 at 2:56 am

 avatar
I am of the understanding that no christian evolutionists (like Ken Miller)were included in the film. Wonder why that was? Oh yeah, it would piss all over the notion that you have to be an atheist to believe in evolution


In the interview of Mathis by the SA staff he was asked this about Ken Miller. He proceeded to go (reflexively, it seemed) into weasel wording and complained that Miller was not a real Catholic.

Other Comments by Quine

1029. Comment #159744 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 2:57 am

 avatar
A universe with a God who did very little could look just like the one we are in.


I have always assumed it meant an impersonal universe that does not have the welfare of man kind at heart. One where stars blow up, comets hit planets and life exists at the expense of other beings.

Other Comments by BillySands

1030. Comment #159745 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 2:59 am

 avatarWhat really frustrates me about IDers is that none have laid out here how the "science" of it is to proceed. I'd love to see a discussion of what sorts of things could be validated and how that information could be used.

Surely, for instance, it is reasonable to have as many hypotheses of what form an Intelligent Designer might take so that something useful might be inferred from evidence of design, should it be found.

Is the Designer God? Is she always consistent in what she does? Is she consistent, but reactive to slip ups, making course corrections along the way? Is she entirely fickle?

Is the designer merely a god, etc. etc.?

Is the designer a hyper intelligent mega-being, etc. etc.?

The contesting explanations are between "process" and "intervention" and most Iders accept large chunks of process as fact, so the process / intervention balance should be key to the "science" of ID and establishing its usefulness.

If examples in biology of Design could be proved, as opposed to simply failing to identify another process for them, how would that information be used? Are the (putative) acts of design that can be identified examples of a Band-Aid on a process that stalled, for instance? Are interventions clustered? What energies are involved? Is the intervention genetic always? Is environmental intervention a useful design tool? And, (surely the question is not excluded?) how is any intervention achieved?

Please, please, would an Ider come here and explain the Science of ID. Also, what is the latest, best piece of ID evidence, now that the flagellum motor thing bit the dust?

Other Comments by phil rimmer

1031. Comment #159746 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 3:01 am

 avatar
In the interview of Mathis by the SA staff he was asked this about Ken Miller. He proceeded to go (reflexively, it seemed) into weasel wording and complained that Miller was not a real Catholic.


Dont you just love the superstitious mind. I suppose he redifines any one who disagrees with him as not the real deal. How arrogant and blinkered. I suppose he says the pope is not a real catholic too.

Other Comments by BillySands

1032. Comment #159747 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 3:04 am

 avatar
Also, what is the latest, best piece of ID evidence, now that the flagellum motor thing bit the dust?


I'm guessing they will say thay all those other flagellae that get by fine without certain components are not real flagella.

The whole flagella argument is one of ignorance - probably wilfull ignorance in many cases.

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1033. Comment #159748 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 3:12 am

 avatarI'd just like to say that you guys are a bunch of bastards. Just cause I piss on one of your parades every time I need to pee doesn't make turnabout fair play. Styrer- and I were enjoying our schismatic little holy war. And you guys come along and make sure the game is called due to urethral rain. What's the fun in having a messy public divorce if you have to do it in private?

And now for a Parthian shot:
Comment #159646 by bigcanuck:
There is something to be said for balance and openmindedness. Ridiculing an option that doesn't jive with your own personal belief system is no way to investigate true science.

I guess there are radicals on both ends of the scale.

This is hard to argue against, when as soon as he comes in here he is subjected to a stream of name-calling and assorted vitriol. I would point out that this was a defeat for our side, and the audience was watching. I gather the sudden influx of theists and undecideds has been because the guys over at Expelled put a link to this thread on at least one of their blogs. Bigcanuck's comment should make it clear that they are all wagging their fingers saying, "see, just what you would expect from a bunch of barbaric Atheists". You guys want me to take my chastisement private, but the audience was watching the treatment bigcanuck received here, and the lack of restraint, and the willingness to let profanity laden ad-homs against him slide is a serious point for the other side.

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1034. Comment #159751 by Quine on April 13, 2008 at 3:16 am

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I have always assumed it meant an impersonal universe that does not have the welfare of man kind at heart.


It depends on the deity you have in mind. If it is one of those really nasty kind that is into all that smiting, a Universe with lots of catastrophic events and pointless suffering might be just the thing.

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1035. Comment #159752 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 3:16 am

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Comment #159731 by Quetzalcoatl:
Oh excellent. More arguing verging on becoming another slanging match. Terrific.

Jesus Quetz, if my little tiff with Styrer- was just verging, I'd hate to see what you would call a real "slanging match".

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1036. Comment #159753 by Peacebeuponme on April 13, 2008 at 3:19 am

Styrer
Bicker on, people. As much as we can try, we'll never in any case emulate the enormity of fighting which the religious community can muster all on its own.

But I'll give it a good fucking go.
Of course you can and will post as you see fit. However, it can be a bit disorientating for the observer when you become so obtuse so quickly at the slightest thing you disagree with. One has to pick their way through the "fucks", the "twats" and the capitalisation to find the cogent argument underneath. Other people read and respond to the argument's presentation rather than the argument itself. It all becomes very playground. A potentially good debate gets lost in the interference.

Were are dealing with important and emotional issues. I'm glad this stuff gets people animated as things need to change, but it would be nice if we could show a little more manners, at least in the early stages of a diagreement.

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1037. Comment #159754 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 3:20 am

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It depends on the deity you have in mind.


Yes, I should have made that clear. It doesn't say much about a type of god who starts it all off and ignores it.

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1038. Comment #159756 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 3:23 am

Now, why the fuck will none of you listen and just piss off so Jon and I can get down to some SERIOUS argumentation.

Jesus Fucking Christ, where does an atheist have to go these days.

In Disgust,
Styrer

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1039. Comment #159757 by Quine on April 13, 2008 at 3:28 am

 avatarStyrer, are you here for the full argument, or just the five minutes?

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1040. Comment #159758 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 3:39 am

 avatarPeacebeuponme none of the following applies to you. The rest of you, however, fucked up at a crucial time.

Comment #159736 by Quetzalcoatl:
Here's a link to the entire post. I'm afraid it's mostly more of the usual:

http://www.fcosonline.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=91e31ccdf2f8e66b1beef2e1cbaa1005&topic=25.msg257#msg257

Yeah, unfortunately this time we got our fucking asses handed to us. Look at the calm measured tones that he uses to spout his bigoted drivel about, "all religion is mans attempt to reach up whereas biblical Christianity is God's reaching down". I ask all of you to put yourselves in the shoes of the undecided for a moment. How many are going to be taken in by the calm reasonable seeming friendly supportiveness of David Robertson? How many of those 50/50 agnostics who come here to be accused of being fucktarded fundamentalist faith-heads, are going to feel that this is the better side to be on? Do you guys seriously think that everyone is going to look at the treatment, that even fellow Atheists get when calmly responding to questions, and that this is going to lead these guys to say: "hey sign me up, I like getting it up the ass with a sharp stick every time I step out of line?"

Instead of stepping up to the plate and defending those who should be defended, you guys let it slide and told us to keep it down. Good goal guys. To bad it was own. Ignoring our teammates when they commit fouls is not good enough; we all take the penalties. We may be catching up to the other side fast, but we don't have the luxury of letting shit like this slide.

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1041. Comment #159759 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 3:47 am

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I'm guessing they will say they all those other flagella that get by fine without certain components are not real flagella.


Nor do they have to be. They only need to be useful somehow. But I take your point. The feeble argument is merely semantic.

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1042. Comment #159760 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 3:55 am

 avatarIf it was just a matter of who was right, the battle would be done, and we would have already won. But it's not and logic and evidence and rational debate only count for so much in this fight. These are our strengths, but the enemy knows that a supportive community, and provision of emotional and intellectual crutches is theirs. We were played here, almost to the point that I'd think someone was planted. Unfortunately any conspiracy theory would be unconvincing, because this individual obviously believes in what they are saying, thus it is equally obvious that we can't pawn them of on the other side. And now Comment #159312 by whatrutalkingabout has been not only confirmed, but confirmed as an accurate generalization:
I tried to read this but it was so caustic. It seems like it is written by a completely bitter, crazy man.
[snip]
Shouldn't people make informed decisions on their own? Or should we all just listen to one side, namely - Richard Dawkins? Isn't that why you go to college? To become educated...or, to use your term...goons?


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1043. Comment #159761 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 3:58 am

 avatarJon

Intentions- Admirable.
Methods- Weird.

Negotiators don't shoot at (well intentioned) vigilantes when they've gone a little gun crazy.

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1044. Comment #159763 by Corylus on April 13, 2008 at 4:02 am

 avatarArh, I see that David Robertson is busy playing with his new toy... and his new toy is playing with him.

Seriously though, I do feel sorry for Richard Morgan. It is obvious that he has spent his life looking for one specific thing that will make him consistently happy. I fear he is in for disappointment this time too. Happiness is not a thing to be found, it is a side effect of action: an epiphenomenon.

Until he twigs that one he is never going to find what he is looking for.

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1045. Comment #159766 by AllanW on April 13, 2008 at 4:31 am

 avatarJon_sociologist;

Calm down, man. I'm afraid you may be guilty of the viewpoint I've mentioned on other threads; that what we have here on this site, what we are engaging in is a detailed, one-person-at-a-time conversion process. We are not and this site is not capable of providing that service. The results you are aiming for are not possible.

This is a mass-media vehicle. Are you really expecting a co-ordinated effort to take each individual example of posts, each individual poster and painstakingly walk them through a conversion process to reach the other side? I'm sorry but that is unrealistic.

Just off the top of my head; how can you be sure you understand the precise circumstances of every interraction? What is going on in the posters' head? How can you be in control of their perceptions and what message they take from any posted words here? Do you begin to see my point?

The only thing we can reasonably aim for here is to be consistent in putting forth a message that rationality is preferable to superstition. That will inevitably result in a range of responses (a distribution of colours of reaction) that will, inevitably, switch some people on, turn others off and pass many by.

The trend of groupwide results is the only thing we could have any confidence in, not particular individual interreactions or individual outcomes.

We are part of a movement, nebulous though it is at the moment, but one that is nevertheless gaining momentum and prominence. To expect anything else is not productive or reasonable in my opinion.

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1046. Comment #159769 by Roland_F on April 13, 2008 at 4:54 am

Jon_Sociologist and Styrer

Gentlemen - thank you very much for your outburst of personal insulting attacks.
Beside the small minority of active posters out of > 25,000 registered bloggers here, the RD.net has the third highest audience in the (Uk ?) blog scene as was stated last month.

Here is also a place where notorious spin doctors, distorters and liars like D. Robertson are quote mining, and you just filled his arsenal to "prove the bad atheists mindset' for the next year.

I don't know what happened to R. Morgan (the name don't sound very French ) or whatever his real name is. I first encountered his then interesting posts as ex-Mormon in January, when I joined here after reading again TGD with the WWW link after another Christmas in a Catholic country spoiling everything even the otherwise reasonable online news with incredible faith talk.

Some when later on the R.M. picture was replaced with a pink teddy and the posts got very strange R.M. total disillusionment of atheist as humanist softies "Gutmenschen" and finally culminating in his defection to Robertson's sin and devil centered misery cult.
Sorry R.M. (if you still lurk around here) that here is not the happy come together community for lonely guys who lost their faith but a battle zone of reason and science against the dark ages of superstition.
Maybe the ex-Mormon or ex-JW self help sites might be more suitable, or just try a more Buddhist approach that all the strength is inside and coming only from yourself, no God needed.

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1047. Comment #159773 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 5:16 am

Comment #159769 by Roland_F on April 13, 2008 at 4:54 am

Jon_Sociologist and Styrer

Gentlemen - thank you very much for your outburst of personal insulting attacks.
Beside the small minority of active posters out of > 25,000 registered bloggers here, the RD.net has the third highest audience in the (Uk ?) blog scene as was stated last month.

Here is also a place where notorious spin doctors, distorters and liars like D. Robertson are quote mining, and you just filled his arsenal to "prove the bad atheists mindset' for the next year.