









Lying for Jesus?Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
1002. Comment #159655 by Logicel on April 12, 2008 at 5:43 pm
1003. Comment #159657 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 6:01 pm
Comment #159649 by Steve Zara on April 12, 2008 at 5:31 pm
However, I have never had any 'emotional' investment in Stenger's ideas other than that his ideas have lent some support in my engagements with theists that have shut them up.
I realise this, and I have found that rather worrying. It was why I was mildly concerned about some aspects of Paula Kirby's otherwise outstanding "Fleabytes" review.
There is no such thing as "atheist-friendly physics". There is just physics. We, as hopefully rational people, have to accept what physics in general shows us, not just what one or two atheist physicists write. We should not trawl the bookshelves of WH Smith for popular physics books that we agree with and assume that what is within those books is what most physicists believe.
If we pick books that support our beliefs and quote them, we are just as guilty of quote mining as those who pick bible verses to support their views of morality.
It was why I was mildly concerned about some aspects of Paula Kirby's otherwise outstanding "Fleabytes" review.
1004. Comment #159665 by Jon_Sociologist on April 12, 2008 at 6:44 pm
Comment #159579 by bigcanuck:
He quite distinctly states that since Darwinists have no answer for how life began, there is obviously large holes in their theory.
Comment #135126 by Jon_Sociologist on The Salamander's Tale thread:
Astrophysical theories show us how organic chemicals are a common by product of stars. Stars that existed prior to our solar system exploded seeding our solar system with the chemicals see so prevalent throughout our solar system.
Chemistry theories and observations show us how some of these organic chemicals have a tendency to bind weakly in specific patterns (DNA and RNA), separating and then duplicating themselves, giving us an explanation for the earliest DNA or possibly RNA life forms. The earliest life forms would have been nothing more than a self-replicating chemical reaction: bare DNA/RNA. Similar life forms are still around today in the form of viruses.
Comment #159620 by bigcanuck:
To discount any possible answer is against the scientific method and since science hasn't proven God doesn't exist... then that answer is still a possibility whether a person believes in God or not... n'est pas?
"There may be fairies at the bottom of the garden. There is no evidence for it, but you can't prove that there aren't any, so shouldn't we be agnostic with respect to fairies?"
Richard Dawkins
I am an atheist because I believe that the scientific evidence at hand strongly implies that there is no creator god. In the debate on the genesis of the universe I think an important point gets missed. In answer to the question 'how did the universe come to be?' the secular humanist answers: the Big Bang, the Theory of Evolution, etc. The creationist answers 'god did it'. The point that gets missed is that this doesn't answer the question. The question was how not who. The comeback that god is omnipotent also doesn't answer anything. If we stipulate that god is omnipotent and could do it however he wanted still doesn't answer how he actually did do it. So it is not simply a matter that there is no BELIEVABLE alternative to scientific theory to explain the universe, there is no alternative theory at all.Neither ID nor creationism offer any explanation of how any supposed creator did anything. We are left with no explanations but another question: where did this supposed god come from? Even if you accept the Theory of Evolution etc. but still cling to the idea that some god is behind it all, how is god exercising this control? As I have asked elsewhere: What exact force do you think god used to shape our DNA? Did he use electromagnetism, gravity, weak nuclear force, or strong nuclear force? What was the mechanism used to generate this force? Did he use something akin to an electron microscope to move things around? Did he use incredibly tiny tweezers? ID/creationism explains nothing.
1005. Comment #159670 by Jon_Sociologist on April 12, 2008 at 6:53 pm
Comment #159619 by Styrer-:
Actually, Steve, on re-consideration, I have to say I think you are being a bit of a twat about this.
Comment #159619 by Styrer-:
That you would, sir, seek to dismiss it by means of a 'blog' entry seems to me to be the height of arrogance.
Is this man not a world-class, world-renowned scientist? Would you not expect his findings to have already been found in error if he is simply wrong?
Comment #159619 by Styrer-:
I perceive a double standard here, and I am very displeased with you, Steve, as a result.
1006. Comment #159675 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 7:15 pm
Whether you or anyone else agrees with Steve's findings, the manner in which you expressed your displeasure was both ignorant and rude at best. I would also point out that you asked. And you were a serious prick about the answer. If you aren't prepared to deal with an answer you don't like then you shouldn't ask the question. Whether or not you agree with Steve Zara, he stated his position politely (and at your request), for which you slapped him in the face. I for one, believe you owe Steve a most humble apology.
1007. Comment #159686 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 8:48 pm
996. Comment #159637 by bigcanuck on April 12, 2008 at 5:04 pm
Stryer,
What I see is someone who is so Antigod that it has clouded his scientific judgment. You did not answer my question as to whether or not a scientist must take into considerations all possibilities... You seem to be too concerned that young people are being taught something that you personally disgaree with.
There is absolutely nothing anti-scientific about leaving the door open to intelligent design. Science has not given an answer as to how life began and therefore you are presenting irrational, UNsubstantiated claims anytime you dismiss any possible answer.
Your answer to me shows me that you are concerned about propaganda given to youth and not following the scientific model.
What harm is there in saying... we don't know how life was created initially and then giving them some theories and let them go on there way and formulate their own opinions? I'm not saying that intelligent design is the answer...I'm saying a true scientist leaves all possible answers open.
1008. Comment #159695 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 9:44 pm
I am sorry for the double-post, but I really have more to say.1009. Comment #159703 by Jon_Sociologist on April 12, 2008 at 10:38 pm
Comment #159695 by Styrer-:
That your lot INSIST on bring the greatest theoretical cunt in the universe to visit MY relationships, MY ideas of what is good and bad, MY LIFE as I live and breathe it is the most DESPICABLE, HATEFUL, IMMORAL idea that humankind has ever had to endure.
We may, indeed, not outlast you fucking faithfuelled scum-laden shits. But, at least for me, it will not be through lack of trying.
1010. Comment #159710 by Styrer- on April 12, 2008 at 11:40 pm
Comment #159703 by Jon_Sociologist on April 12, 2008 at 10:38 pm
@Styrer-
Why the hell would we want you on our side? We have Irate Atheist and The Reverend Dark to rain vitriol upon deserving heads. And we have the advantage that, from what I've seen, they limit themselves to deserving heads. You're just lashing out viciously at anyone who disagrees with you.
Any points I've seen you score you've immediately fucked up (sometimes even while making the point). You admit to going overboard and to being a "guttersnipe" and yet completely fail to reign yourself in. You correctly point out that belief based upon personal desire but in the absence of evidence is both unreasonable and unscientific. But don't you think your words ring a little hollow when you yourself are so clearly ignoring evidence that you have accepted?
Being an unjustified asshole is one thing, but realizing that you're an unjustified asshole and happily wallowing in it is far worse. Everyone fucks up occasionally and says things that are rude, unfair and unjustified. But to realize a mistake and continue on with it is incompetent, and I daresay betrays a poor grasp on the concept of a scientific mind. How can you fault someone for failing to take the correct steps in light of the evidence, when you yourself so blatantly do exactly the same thing?
I assume you know who clearmind/wooter/selfishmind is. I have honestly tried to encourage clearmind to continue posting here because his every post damages the creationist cause. You may be smarter than clearmind but your posts are just as damaging to our cause. You said I might need your help someday, and you're right. In fact I, and all of the other Atheists here waging the battle for hearts and minds, need your help today. And the best help you can give us is to shut the fuck up. You may have a hard time wrapping your head around this, but being right, or even intelligent, doesn't stop you from being an idiot.
Nothing I have seen from bigcanuck indicates to me that he could not be convinced and brought over to our side. But your hostile and openly hypocritical posts are far more likely to alienate both bigcanuck and any lurking neutral witnesses. So please shut your troll mouth and let the reasonable people talk.
It is too early to tell for sure, but bigcanuck seems like a reasonable, rational individual, who happens to disagree with us. Pointing out why his position is not in fact correct, and that his ideas might not seem so reasonable if examined from another perspective might be better if not followed by vague auguries about how he is putting his life and the lives of his children in danger. I find myself recalling a conversation with another "prophet" that came in here slinging shit, and my response to him applies equally to you: "So did you get that from Nostradumbass.com, or do you have any evidence to back up your prognostications?" Just in case your psychic abilities are not up to divining which comment I am referring to, it is the following: "You are placing your whole life on the line, and that of your kids, and you are doing so on the basis that your lack of evidence for your god is evidence enough" posted in Comment #159686. Spewing such evidence free hypocrisy, and then following it up with a snotty little "Best, Styrer" is "help" that I can do without, so kindly fuck off.
Best,
Jon
Comment #159695 by Styrer-:
That your lot INSIST on bring the greatest theoretical cunt in the universe to visit MY relationships, MY ideas of what is good and bad, MY LIFE as I live and breathe it is the most DESPICABLE, HATEFUL, IMMORAL idea that humankind has ever had to endure.
We may, indeed, not outlast you fucking faithfuelled scum-laden shits. But, at least for me, it will not be through lack of trying.
What the fuck good are your "ideas of what is good and bad" when you blatantly ignore them? Shut your stupid mouth, and quit assuming that bigcanuck is a "fucking faithfuelled scum-laden shit" when his posts make clear that he is not a fundy, is likely either a 50/50 Agnostic, an Agnostic-christian, or an Agnostic deist, not to mention the other myriad possibilities. What the hell are you trying to accomplish you fucking moron? Do you think your honey-laden posts are going to convince anyone? Well, I have news for you; they are, but they're not going to be getting anyone to join our side. If you need the catharsis of spewing such hate at random people might I suggest not clicking the "submit" button, let it out if you must, but let it drop without actually posting it.
1011. Comment #159713 by epeeist on April 13, 2008 at 12:14 am
Ben Stein is not trying to damage anything scientific. This is what I'm having a problem with. He quite distinctly states that since Darwinists have no answer for how life began, there is obviously large holes in their theory.
I happen to have a BSc. in Zoology and doctorate.You have qualifications in biology (where from?), you call evolutionary biologists "Darwinists" and you either don't know the difference between abiogenesis and evolution or are prepared to accept that Stein is dishonestly trying to conflate the two.
1012. Comment #159719 by Steve Zara on April 13, 2008 at 1:02 am
BUT - you, sir, made NOT A SINGLE CRITICLE REMARK, as I recall, apart from nauseating, sycophantic expressions of sheer approbation, of Paula's critique.
1013. Comment #159722 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 1:22 am
1014. Comment #159723 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 1:30 am
Comment #159719 by Steve Zara on April 13, 2008 at 1:02 am
1015. Comment #159724 by Steve Zara on April 13, 2008 at 1:37 am
But I've had enough, my friend. That you refuse to take a stance - and a clear one - in the ongoing war being waged between rationality and unreason, and that you are continuing to cite SCIENCE as the very mechanism by which you keep to such 'middle of the road' views (and DESPITE the notion that Dawkins is surely now hoarse with its uttering, that 'a universe with a god is a very different universe from one without') suggests to me someone who is losing the fucking plot.
1016. Comment #159728 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 2:13 am
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
You really do not like being called 'verbose', do you? It is heartening to see that your response to such a criticism is to make yet another longwinded speech here.
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
Or, rather more challengingly for you, who seems to like the sight of his own text,
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:Apparently you are having trouble reading all of my verbosity so I'll just copy and paste a brief part of Comment #159703 for you:
if you simply think me a wanker, why not say fuck off?
Spewing such evidence free hypocrisy, and then following it up with a snotty little "Best, Styrer" is "help" that I can do without, so kindly fuck off.(emphasis added)
Best,
Jon
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
ignore me altogether and press on with your other, much more important engagements here and on other threads?
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
But you also come across to me as rather a pedant, quoting masses of text in order to illustrate your ability to dissect it, and not always seeing the real point behind your selection and dissection.
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
If I thought that my participation here was as damaging as that which faithheads represent in the world at large, then I would have gone by now.
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
Its ethos is, after all, so completely different from your own.
Comment #159710 by Styrer-:
Think on, Jon.
1017. Comment #159729 by AllanW on April 13, 2008 at 2:16 am
1018. Comment #159730 by Quine on April 13, 2008 at 2:16 am
1019. Comment #159731 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 2:27 am
In fact in general it is very confused and muddled thinking which seems to be largely driven by emotion and feeling
1020. Comment #159732 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 2:31 am
Spewing such evidence free hypocrisy, and then following it up with a snotty little "Best, Styrer" is "help" that I can do without, so kindly fuck off.
1021. Comment #159734 by Vaal on April 13, 2008 at 2:33 am
DR said it is very confused and muddled thinking which seems to be largely driven by emotion and feeling
1022. Comment #159735 by Steve Zara on April 13, 2008 at 2:36 am
Oh excellent. More arguing verging on becoming another slanging match. Terrific.
1023. Comment #159736 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 2:37 am
1024. Comment #159737 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 2:40 am
1025. Comment #159739 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 2:49 am
You automatically assume that anyone who leaves the door cracked open for the possibility of intelligent design must know nothing of the scientific method.
1026. Comment #159740 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 2:51 am
1027. Comment #159741 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 2:53 am
Thanks for the link, Quetz.1028. Comment #159743 by Quine on April 13, 2008 at 2:56 am
I am of the understanding that no christian evolutionists (like Ken Miller)were included in the film. Wonder why that was? Oh yeah, it would piss all over the notion that you have to be an atheist to believe in evolution
1029. Comment #159744 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 2:57 am
A universe with a God who did very little could look just like the one we are in.
1030. Comment #159745 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 2:59 am
1031. Comment #159746 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 3:01 am
In the interview of Mathis by the SA staff he was asked this about Ken Miller. He proceeded to go (reflexively, it seemed) into weasel wording and complained that Miller was not a real Catholic.
1032. Comment #159747 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 3:04 am
Also, what is the latest, best piece of ID evidence, now that the flagellum motor thing bit the dust?
1033. Comment #159748 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 3:12 am
Comment #159646 by bigcanuck:
There is something to be said for balance and openmindedness. Ridiculing an option that doesn't jive with your own personal belief system is no way to investigate true science.
I guess there are radicals on both ends of the scale.
1034. Comment #159751 by Quine on April 13, 2008 at 3:16 am
I have always assumed it meant an impersonal universe that does not have the welfare of man kind at heart.
1035. Comment #159752 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 3:16 am
Comment #159731 by Quetzalcoatl:
Oh excellent. More arguing verging on becoming another slanging match. Terrific.
1036. Comment #159753 by Peacebeuponme on April 13, 2008 at 3:19 am
StyrerBicker on, people. As much as we can try, we'll never in any case emulate the enormity of fighting which the religious community can muster all on its own.Of course you can and will post as you see fit. However, it can be a bit disorientating for the observer when you become so obtuse so quickly at the slightest thing you disagree with. One has to pick their way through the "fucks", the "twats" and the capitalisation to find the cogent argument underneath. Other people read and respond to the argument's presentation rather than the argument itself. It all becomes very playground. A potentially good debate gets lost in the interference.
But I'll give it a good fucking go.
1037. Comment #159754 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 3:20 am
It depends on the deity you have in mind.
1038. Comment #159756 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 3:23 am
Now, why the fuck will none of you listen and just piss off so Jon and I can get down to some SERIOUS argumentation.1039. Comment #159757 by Quine on April 13, 2008 at 3:28 am
1040. Comment #159758 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 3:39 am
Comment #159736 by Quetzalcoatl:
Here's a link to the entire post. I'm afraid it's mostly more of the usual:
http://www.fcosonline.org/index.php?PHPSESSID=91e31ccdf2f8e66b1beef2e1cbaa1005&topic=25.msg257#msg257
1041. Comment #159759 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 3:47 am
I'm guessing they will say they all those other flagella that get by fine without certain components are not real flagella.
1042. Comment #159760 by Jon_Sociologist on April 13, 2008 at 3:55 am
I tried to read this but it was so caustic. It seems like it is written by a completely bitter, crazy man.
[snip]
Shouldn't people make informed decisions on their own? Or should we all just listen to one side, namely - Richard Dawkins? Isn't that why you go to college? To become educated...or, to use your term...goons?
1043. Comment #159761 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 3:58 am
1044. Comment #159763 by Corylus on April 13, 2008 at 4:02 am
1045. Comment #159766 by AllanW on April 13, 2008 at 4:31 am
1046. Comment #159769 by Roland_F on April 13, 2008 at 4:54 am
Jon_Sociologist and Styrer1047. Comment #159773 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 5:16 am
Comment #159769 by Roland_F on April 13, 2008 at 4:54 am
Jon_Sociologist and Styrer
Gentlemen - thank you very much for your outburst of personal insulting attacks.
Beside the small minority of active posters out of > 25,000 registered bloggers here, the RD.net has the third highest audience in the (Uk ?) blog scene as was stated last month.
Here is also a place where notorious spin doctors, distorters and liars like D. Robertson are quote mining, and you just filled his arsenal to "prove the bad atheists mindset' for the next year.
1001. Comment #159651 by Dr Benway on April 12, 2008 at 5:34 pm
It's not enough simply to consider a wide range of hypotheses. No scientist writes a paper saying, "could be this; could be that; the end."
The hypotheses must past some test before anyone takes them seriously.
Other Comments by Dr Benway