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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 1051 - 1100 of 9336 |

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1051. Comment #159792 by Peacebeuponme on April 13, 2008 at 6:59 am

Styrer
My (now seemingly insubstantial) point was that we have a freedom here which Richard Morgan is going to sorely miss.
No, that is a substantial point which we need to remind ourselves of. Its why I and I suspect many others spend a lot of time here. There are not many places like this on the web.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

1052. Comment #159793 by alan baylis on April 13, 2008 at 7:00 am

Now, who haven't I called a fuckwit today?

Me.

JON, STYRER

I for one, am NOT enjoying watching you out in the cyber car park knocking virtual lumps off each other!

You should save your boundless energy and enthusiasm for dealing with the IDiots, cretinist, conspiracy theorists and general anti-science nutters, who post here like many-
headed hydra!

Now watching you doing that, I do enjoy!

Regards,
Alan.

Other Comments by alan baylis

1053. Comment #159795 by Geoff on April 13, 2008 at 7:03 am

 avatarherding cats?

cat fight?


1055. Comment #159784 by Styrer-

Now, who haven't I called a fuckwit today?


Me, but it's still early...

1056. Comment #159785 by Peacebeuponme

I do give a shit about us lot, here, and the discussions we have.


Me too.

Other Comments by Geoff

1054. Comment #159797 by Bonzai on April 13, 2008 at 7:11 am

epeeist

You [bigcanuck] have qualifications in biology (where from?), you call evolutionary biologists "Darwinists" and you either don't know the difference between abiogenesis and evolution or are prepared to accept that Stein is dishonestly trying to conflate the two.

Something doesn't quite ring true I'm afraid.


When I taught in a community college to supplement my income I met a few people who had Ph.Ds in biochemistry and they were quite poor in their general understanding of science. One guy couldn't even solve a quadratic equation, I am not kidding you. It seems there are ways to get your doctorate by being very narrowly focused and don't have a clue outside whatever narrow topic that is the subject of your thesis if you choose to work on something sufficiently isolated.

My highschool biology teacher also has a Ph.D. in zoology but he was the most incompetent and clueless science teacher I ever had, who actually succeeded in turning me off biology for life.(This guy would turn on a Busen burner and then started looking for matches, we were all ducking for cover everytime when he did some demonstration in the lab)

I don't doubt bigcanuck's credential. Maybe he was one of the "expelled". Michael Behe does have a doctorate and a professorship afterall.

Other Comments by Bonzai

1055. Comment #159799 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 7:14 am

Comment #159792 by Peacebeuponme on April 13,
2008 at 6:59 am

Styrer
My (now seemingly insubstantial) point was that we have a freedom here which Richard Morgan is going to sorely miss.
No, that is a substantial point which we need to remind ourselves of. Its why I and I suspect many others spend a lot of time here. There are not many places like this on the web.


There is really nothing out there like this.

My only comparison has to be my 6 year membership with Catstevens.com. Don't laugh - it wasn't just a bunch of us logging on talking about hippies. The best part of the site, which I visited almost daily, was titled from a Cat Stevens song - Maybe you're right - with the addition of - 'and maybe you're wrong'. Debates were had, but RELIGION was strictly off-limits.

That this site's raison d'etre is its stance against religion is more wonderful than I am used to in e-land. IT MUST continue.

But if it cannot take a few fucking cunting shites, then I'll continue to hunt...:)

Cat Stevens is still my all time favourite musician. A ridiculously talented man, he gave up music at the age of 28 to become a Muslim. He has now, at the age of 58, convinced himself that it is ok for the verminous mullahs to permit him to play guitar again. After 30 years.

If I didn't hate religion for ANYTHING ELSE, I would hate it solely because of what it did to one of this generation's most original, special and compelling singer/songwriters.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1056. Comment #159804 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 7:22 am

Comment #159793 by alan baylis on April 13, 2008 at 7:00 am


Aw shucks. I was just warming up.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1057. Comment #159806 by David A Robertson on April 13, 2008 at 7:24 am

Sorry to butt in - I have no wish to intrude on the high standard of debate but I do feel that poor Styrer is getting himself worked up over nothing. I will reply and then leave you to continue your intellectual discussion..

Styrer asks 'Robertson has NEVER deigned to respond to my question of how metaphorical readings can POSSIBLY lead to assertions of REALITY for those metaphorical parts which he has admitted are key to his doctrine."

Its not really that difficult - unless you are a fundamentalist who thinks that there is only one absolutely literal way to read anything. When Jesus said I am the door - he did not mean that he was made of wood and had a handle. He meant that he was the way to God. That is how metaphor works.

Sorry for the intrusion... Now I must leave this oasis of clear thinking, freedom,love and reason and return to the cess pool of Christianity....

Tot Ziens....

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1058. Comment #159807 by Bonzai on April 13, 2008 at 7:26 am

I think styrer swears too much and at times abusive. Jon makes too many links (see I asked him not to, nicely) and is rather, as styrer said, verbose and too much of a pedant (but wait til styrer meets Terantonis)

Problem is both you guys take yourself too fucking seriously, though I must say it is a talent to be able to swear like styrer. Whenever I read something about Saudi-fucking-Arabia I wish I have that kind of command of the English language..

Now the cat is out of the bag and ole me is ducking for cover,

P.S. I am probably a fukwit who is also a fruit to boot. Hey it rhythms! I should become a poet and shake my tosh..

Other Comments by Bonzai

1059. Comment #159808 by Bonzai on April 13, 2008 at 7:30 am

Hi, David,

Long time no talk. Glad to see you being able to circumvent the ban and find a way to post under your real name again,

Its not really that difficult - unless you are a fundamentalist who thinks that there is only one absolutely literal way to read anything. When Jesus said I am the door - he did not mean that he was made of wood and had a handle. He meant that he was the way to God. That is how metaphor works


Sure, you are right, I don't think there is only one literal way to read the Bible.

So can you tell us what is your way? Do you actually have a system or do you just do whatever you feel like and make free associations like when I listen to Japanese rap?

Other Comments by Bonzai

1060. Comment #159810 by epeeist on April 13, 2008 at 7:31 am

 avatarComment #159806 by David A Robertson

Sorry to butt in - I have no wish to intrude on the high standard of debate but I do feel that poor Styrer is getting himself worked up over nothing. I will reply and then leave you to continue your intellectual discussion..
So, given that this registration was made in December 2006, and assuming that clearthinker, the wee flea etc. are just synonyms then what are we to make of the claim made in the "Fleabytes" thread that the poster was banned from the site? Just an id that he had forgotten he had lying around?

It certainly looks the same kind of post that the likes of clearthinker would post. Designed not to inform, but to stir up a flamefest, suitable for quotemining at a later date.

Given that the poster claims to be a minister, you would have thought he would have had something better to do on the Sabbath.

Other Comments by epeeist

1061. Comment #159812 by Corylus on April 13, 2008 at 7:36 am

 avatarTeehee.

I am now tempted to ask Stryer what he thinks of that Westlife* cover of Father and Son, but I wouldn't want to get him cross :-)

*Hides behind a chair with Bonzai...*

P.S. Hi David, nice to see you full of the joys of spring.

[Edit] *Or was it Boyzone?? Nevermind: same difference.

Other Comments by Corylus

1062. Comment #159813 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 7:36 am

Comment #159806 by David A Robertson on April 13, 2008 at 7:24 am

Sorry to butt in - I have no wish to intrude on the high standard of debate but I do feel that poor Styrer is getting himself worked up over nothing. I will reply and then leave you to continue your intellectual discussion..

Styrer asks 'Robertson has NEVER deigned to respond to my question of how metaphorical readings can POSSIBLY lead to assertions of REALITY for those metaphorical parts which he has admitted are key to his doctrine."

Its not really that difficult - unless you are a fundamentalist who thinks that there is only one absolutely literal way to read anything. When Jesus said I am the door - he did not mean that he was made of wood and had a handle. He meant that he was the way to God. That is how metaphor works.

Sorry for the intrusion... Now I must leave this oasis of clear thinking, freedom,love and reason and return to the cess pool of Christianity....

Tot Ziens....


No intrusion, old bean. You seem to come and go as you wish in any case.

Now, tut, tut, my furry faith-drenched friend. You haven't answered my question, have you?

Answering as though you are a 'fundamentalist' (ARE there such, Robertson, in your funny little church?) is hardly answering as David A. Robertson, now, is it?

My question, Robertson, is clear, and it is addressed to YOU, my funny little e-acquaintance. I'll repeat, for the avoidance of doubt:

Why do you mistake metaphorical significance in your holy book for the reality of the fictitious deity described within it?

You know, Robertson, I will fucking love to hear a decent response from you on this.

Come on, you slippery puppy you.

Waiting...

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1063. Comment #159814 by Peacebeuponme on April 13, 2008 at 7:41 am

Just to be clear for anybody reading David's wonderfully sneering post (I thought only atheists sneered?):
Sorry for the intrusion... Now I must leave this oasis of clear thinking, freedom,love and reason and return to the cess pool of Christianity....
A few posts amongst thousands are not up to the same intellectual standards of the vast majority. Just bear that in mind. There are many, many examples of wonderful science, philosophy and debate here. This site is a fantastic learning tool.

David can point at a couple of swearwords and laugh all he wants. Don't be fooled.

David's arguments for both the validity of religious truth claims and the personal and social benefits of a religious mindset are extremely poor.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

1064. Comment #159815 by Cartomancer on April 13, 2008 at 7:44 am

 avatarWhat's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

1065. Comment #159816 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 7:44 am

Comment #159807 by Bonzai on April 13, 2008 at 7:26 am


Aw, Bonzai you have ever been a poet,
But you were simply not reared to know it.

That's me out of jokes. I'm too much of a serious fucker for all your puerile shite.

Now, where's that cunt Robertson got to...?

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1066. Comment #159817 by alan baylis on April 13, 2008 at 7:45 am

there you are!

Speak of the devil and he is sure to appear.

My old mum was right,then.

Other Comments by alan baylis

1067. Comment #159818 by Bonzai on April 13, 2008 at 7:48 am

Swearing is not that big a deal. I thought styrer was an asshole, but after reading a few of his posts more carefully, I think he is just a cranky guy with a colourful vocabulary. I can take that, but there are genuinely nasty people who like to shoot you with snide remarks behind a facade of civility, such as a certain minister.

Other Comments by Bonzai

1068. Comment #159822 by David A Robertson on April 13, 2008 at 7:48 am

Oh,dear,

I see the conspiracy theorists/Robertson is a liar people are back. I received an e-mail from RD net offering to re-register me under my own name - which I have just done. But if it upsets you I will return to posting as 'clearthinker'.

And yes Styrer, I do come and go as I please. We call that freedom. And you really do need to look up a dictionary (and not for more swear words!). I did NOT answer as though I were a fundamentalist, I said 'unless' you are a fundamentalist.

Your question was answered. Go read it again and if you still do not understand then please feel free to get back to me. Although I'm afraid that, as 'epeeist' points out - it is a Sunday and I do have better things to do. So just to keep our legalists happy...By the way epeesit - given that poor Styrer was getting really worked up about his great unanswered question, do you really think I can be accused of flame throwing, just because I give him an answer? Mind you given his explosive tendencies I suspect he is not really looking for an answer - it probably is like adding fuel to the fire. Anyway I have given him my answer - when I return I look forward to his apology!

Other Comments by David A Robertson

1069. Comment #159824 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 7:52 am

I think he is just a cranky guy with a colourful vocabulary.


Oh stop, stop, you go too far! Such approbation, please, no, oh stop!

Bastard. I'll never be able to look in the mirror the same way again.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1070. Comment #159827 by BillySands on April 13, 2008 at 7:57 am

 avatarHey Robertson, thought you said you had better things to do and did not plan on popping back often. Can we trust anything you say?

Alienated any catholics today?

It would be nice if you could actually resopond to proper questions and not ignore them because they destroy your claims - like your silly belief there were no tsunamis volcanoes etc before man

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1071. Comment #159831 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 8:07 am

And yes Styrer, I do come and go as I please. We call that freedom. And you really do need to look up a dictionary (and not for more swear words!). I did NOT answer as though I were a fundamentalist, I said 'unless' you are a fundamentalist.


Fucking Robertson again! (That expletive was on the house; you'll pay, of course, for the next, won't you? Cheques not accepted.)

Er, Robertson, may I ask you why you are logging on to Richard Dawkins' site on such a busy Sunday? What on earth are you neglecting, my dear sir, simply to be here?
'it is a Sunday and I do have better things to do.'


Oh, poor lonely David. Was I right in thinking that you can't get enough of us all? Is it Cartomancer's legs? Is it Steve Zara's shoes? Is it, oh admit it, MY terrific sense of humour?

Always welcome, old fella.

But I must take one teeny tiny issue with you. You have still not answered my question, have you, old love? Come now. Give it to me straight. Devastate me with your acumen...

Perhaps next time you could answer the question directly? All these referrals, all these procrastinations...surely you can answer me in real time?

Good luck!

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1072. Comment #159833 by epeeist on April 13, 2008 at 8:11 am

 avatar
Registration page for David A Robertson

Joined: Wed Dec 06, 2006 11:48 am
Last visited: Sun Apr 13, 2008 3:16 pm

Registration page for clearthinker

Joined: Thu Nov 08, 2007 8:49 am
Last visited: Sun Apr 13, 2008 10:07 am

So is the "David A Robertson" a new id or a replacement id for something else?

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1073. Comment #159838 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 8:20 am

Comment #159812 by Corylus on April 13, 2008 at 7:36 am

Teehee.

I am now tempted to ask Stryer what he thinks of that Westlife* cover of Father and Son, but I wouldn't want to get him cross :-)


It was a fucking travesty. (It was Boyzone, by the way.)

Keating didn't rise to the scale of the original (which was the whole point - father (low) son (high)) and he kept the same key throughout!

And Cat was walking behind him, assisting here and there! Should have sung the whole damn thing.

Fucking religion...it RESTRICTS, and never ENABLES.

Phew. Thanks, Corylus. Off my chest now.:)

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1074. Comment #159842 by Peacebeuponme on April 13, 2008 at 8:28 am

Styrer
It was a fucking travesty. (It was Boyzone, by the way.)
The pedant in me is duty bound to tell you it was Ronan Keating (and not all of Boyzone).

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1075. Comment #159844 by Dr Benway on April 13, 2008 at 8:32 am

 avatarHmm. A meta-discussion. Ok, I'll join in.

What's the ratio of believers to non-believers posting on RD.net? 1/100 maybe?

Of the believers posting here, what percentage would fall into the categories below:
1. Drive-by trolls (e.g., "Dawkins is your God")
2. Lunatics (e.g., wooter)
3. Point-scoring wanks (e.g., Robertson)
4. Bible-bots
5. Not frankly crazy, but the clutch slips a bit (e.g., Dianelos)
6. Unschooled; e.g., may believe that "vigorous argument" means "red-faced fist-pounding"
7. Honest, reasonable; aware that "irony" does not mean "like iron"

Sadly, I can only think of one believer from category 7. We've had a few volleys with people from #5 and #6 that have proven productive. But the vast majority of believers posting here fall into categories 1-4.

When a new face appears potentially representing #5-#7, many of us get excited: "Oh boy! Someone to play catch with! Woohoo!" Others are more cynical and less hopeful, understandably. So there's a mis-match of intentions among us.

The hopeful want to start off on the right foot. They let trivial insults slide. For example, when bigcanuck said "You too have created your own little reality..." I chalked that up to inexperience with debate.

In the midst of the tentative courtship dance, an impatient old salt will demand the believer cut-to-the-chase. Naturally, this pisses off the hopefuls.

Another problem: excitement over a new face leads to a dogpile. A brief post from the believer is followed by several lengthy essays. This must be a bit overwhelming for the new guy. He must wonder if he's obligated to respond to all the follow-up.

What to do about all this?

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1076. Comment #159848 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 8:46 am

Comment #159842 by Peacebeuponme on April 13, 2008 at 8:28 am

Styrer
It was a fucking travesty. (It was Boyzone, by the way.)
The pedant in me is duty bound to tell you it was Ronan Keating (and not all of Boyzone).


Yes, and no pedantry involved. I was wrong.

Cat (or YUSUF, now, the twat) thought that Ronan had the voice for it. From what I've heard, Cat's son Muhammad has indicated that Pops was not really happy with the outcome...

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1077. Comment #159850 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 8:53 am

Comment #159844 by Dr Benway on April 13, 2008 at 8:32 am


Under which number do you yourself fall, my good Doctor?

And is your solitary no. 7 Richard Dawkins?

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1078. Comment #159851 by Corylus on April 13, 2008 at 8:55 am

 avatarHurray! I now know how to talk down Styrer when he gets wound up: distract with Cat Stevens.

I'm a' singin' Moon Shadow next time :-) LaLa

Dr Benway
What to do about all this
Maybe one of us should offer to 'fight alongside them' when they come on so they don't feel swamped? This will

a) Provide good practice for the person playing 'Devil's (Christian's?) Avocate.

b) Stop the new guy feeling swamped.

c) Seem fair

d) Maybe cut down on rudeness.

e) Also, having someone understand your viewpoint, but still not agree with it can be a thought provoking sensation.

I'm willing to do this now and again, but would probably be best twinned with an Anglican moderate as I know that type of thinking best... real biblebots will need someone else.

Other Comments by Corylus

1079. Comment #159852 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 8:59 am

 avatar
Under which number do you yourself fall, my good Doctor?


Duh!

Someone take the bottle from him...

and give it to me

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1080. Comment #159853 by Logicel on April 13, 2008 at 8:59 am

 avatarStyrer writes: Under which number do you yourself fall, my good Doctor?
________

Those seven categories are to describe believers. Last time I looked Dr. B was a non-believer.

Other Comments by Logicel

1081. Comment #159855 by Frankus1122 on April 13, 2008 at 9:03 am

 avatar
What to do about all this?


Well, if everyone was like me we would have no problems whatsoever. Can we try that?

Seriously, try to remember the Golden Rule. At least to begin with. Dealing with obstinate willful ignorance is another matter.
Nasty vitriol should not be the the default position or the first volley. IMHO.
What happens when the name calling starts is that it reflects badly on the person doing the name calling. It also dirties the pool. To stick with this metaphor, it is like we are at a public swimming pool and we have a couple of guys pissing in the water. Most of the people around you are not appreciative of this and want you to stop. We say so. You don't have to. But nobody likes you because of your behaviour.

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1082. Comment #159857 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 9:05 am

 avatarDoc.

a)Listen

b)Explain

c)Hope others catch on.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

1083. Comment #159860 by Bonzai on April 13, 2008 at 9:20 am

Frankus,


Well, if everyone was like me we would have no problems whatsoever. Can we try that?..

What happens when the name calling starts is that it reflects badly on the person doing the name calling. It also dirties the pool. To stick with this metaphor,..


You really are a teacher..:)

Other Comments by Bonzai

1084. Comment #159865 by Logicel on April 13, 2008 at 9:28 am

 avatarDr B provided a good psychological handle with her focus on atheist posters having different intents.

Corylus, your suggestion is creatively clever. However, it would not solve friction resulting from the 'different intentional' bias of the atheist commenters.

I often compare how commenters behave at PZ Myers compared/contrasted to the commenting behavior here. Besides the fact that Myers posts almost entirely original posts, he does have a strong presence in the comment section also. He has the decisiveness to throw commenters in the dungeon (though their contact info, if known, is given in the dungeon list). He also can hilariously choose to disvowel their posts (their comments become a gibberish of consonants, uncannily resembling Welsh).

The expelled thread at Myers reached nearly 2000 comments and caused havoc with Seed's (the host for Myers' blog) server, and Myers closed the thread down and reopened a new one (last visit it was up to over 100 comments already). There is some very good discussion with creationists at that thread (that is why the comment number is so high, much higher than usual). The difference I see at first glance is the physical set-up: it is not as user friendly (no editing or deleting), the format is more cramped. The front page here, at Dawkins, is very conducive to become indiscriminate in the quantity and length of posts.

Other Comments by Logicel

1085. Comment #159868 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 9:30 am

Comment #159844 by Dr Benway on April 13, 2008 at 8:32 am


Oh fuck. Went and made a twat of myself.

Sorry.

It was the 7 point system, same as Dawkins...

Oh fuck it, no excuses. Just made a twat of myself. Full stop.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1086. Comment #159869 by Styrer- on April 13, 2008 at 9:32 am

Comment #159851 by Corylus on April 13, 2008 at 8:55 am

Hurray! I now know how to talk down Styrer when he gets wound up: distract with Cat Stevens.

I'm a' singin' Moon Shadow next time :-)

Dr Benway
What to do about all this
Maybe one of us should offer to 'fight alongside then' when they come on so they don't feel swamped? This will

a) Provide good practice for the person playing 'Devil's (Christian's?) Avocate.

b) Stop the new guy feeling swamped.

c) Seem fair

d) Maybe cut down on rudeness.

I'm willing to do this now and again, but would probably be best twinned with an Anglican moderate as I know that best... real biblebots will need someone else.


I suppose my overall fave - though it changes, as is usual - is On the road to Findout. Ah! I hear it now. There's nothing to compare...

Ok, as for the rest of your post...

Are you MAD?

Never give the fuckers AN INCH!!!

Seriously, I think this idea of a 'walk me through' can work at some universities etc., but you are asking far too much of both theist and anti-theist alike on this one...

Corylus, don't forget. The theists already know.

Terrifying.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1087. Comment #159872 by phil rimmer on April 13, 2008 at 9:53 am

 avatarCorylus,

An excellent idea. If they wished an advocate it would also provide a pre-vetting service for others, indicating that someone wants genuine debate. (I personally would also appreciate a category 5 warning.)

How on earth would it work though? Maybe some kind of "first time for theists" section where they might find the names of volunteering atheists with specific areas of interest? My fear is that it would be way too slow and clunky for commenting on news events.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

1088. Comment #159874 by Dr Benway on April 13, 2008 at 9:55 am

 avatar
Styrer: Corylus, don't forget. The theists already know.

Terrifying.
Well yes. But I was once a theist. Look at all the non-believers who were fundamentalists until well into their adult years - e.g., Michael Shermer, Dan Barker, briancoughlinworldcitizen.

So there is hope.

It would be nice to triage our efforts somehow. I'd prefer not to waste time on someone who for either cognitive or emotional reasons will never escape the delusion.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1089. Comment #159876 by alan baylis on April 13, 2008 at 10:00 am

As an outsider who has read many of his posts, this Robertson character seems to me like some strange antithesis of what St. Francis was supposed be like. I wonder if he actually does imagine that he is fighting the devil here? Or does it just get up his nose that there are so many here he could never hope to intellectually dominate.

This site is an attractive place for people like this because of the thousands they know who are looking in. They should be aware though that this is very much a two-edged sword.
On another thread a very creepy holocaust denier has been posting, obviously trying to take advantage of the same large audience to disseminate his poison. The people here are giving him short shrift as well!

Rev. Robertson, I would not try to make too much of the spat between Jon and Styrer. This often happens between strong-minded and passionate people.

Regards,
Alan.

Other Comments by alan baylis

1090. Comment #159886 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 10:44 am

 avatarJon Sociologist-

Jesus Quetz, if my little tiff with Styrer- was just verging, I'd hate to see what you would call a real "slanging match".


The recent one between Al-Rawandi and Styrer. And my first name isn't Jesus.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1091. Comment #159889 by kaiserkriss on April 13, 2008 at 10:57 am

 avatarepieest wrote" So is the "David A Robertson" a new id or a replacement id for something else? "

The probability that this character is "our" David, weaflee, clearthinker etc, is surely quite low. There must literally be hundreds of David Robertsons in Scotland, let alone the rest of the world to where the Scots have migrated. jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

1092. Comment #159893 by Corylus on April 13, 2008 at 11:05 am

 avatarI thought that suggestion might cause a response...

Stryer
Objection noted: I didn't have you down as the natural advocate type anyway :-)

I have no idea how it could work. Might be best as a forum thing - trouble is, most people just see the front page and stay there.

Also, the person advocating would have to preface every post in bold with "I am advocating this position not necessarily holding it" to prevent confusion. It would be tough to organise and Logicel is right in that we are all different with different interests.

Maybe, just sometimes suggesting it to people that appear genuine might be a good thing??

Phil has a point - if they tell you to stick your suggestion where the sun don't shine it will give some indication how open minded they are willing to be.

I don't know how it could consistently work in practice.

I suspect I am just thinking about this because I have noticed myself throwing out the odd 'get of jail free' card to people when I feel sorry for them - or I think they are being swamped. Anyway, I always test out ideas by looking into the opposite position. *shrugs*

Other Comments by Corylus

1093. Comment #159894 by epeeist on April 13, 2008 at 11:06 am

 avatarComment #159889 by kaiserkriss

The probability that this character is "our" David, weaflee, clearthinker etc, is surely quite low.
Shudder, you mean there are two David Robertson's who are ministers in Dundee?

Other Comments by epeeist

1094. Comment #159899 by Frankus1122 on April 13, 2008 at 11:18 am

 avatarComment #159893 by Corylus

I have noticed myself throwing out the odd 'get of jail free' card to people when I feel sorry for them - or I think they are being swamped. Anyway, I always test out ideas by looking into the opposite position. *shrugs*


I too feel this is a good habit to get into. If you ask how a person could believe what they believe you can sometimes get deep into the thought process and get to the real nub of the problem.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

1095. Comment #159900 by Polydactyl on April 13, 2008 at 11:20 am

To Dr Benway's point:
Well, there are all sorts of levels of believers, and it probably isn't a good idea to use the same ammunition against all of them.

In increasing order of distance from atheism:

1. The most accessible: those who merely want to put 'God' in the spot where science says 'we don't know'. No problem with that, unless they start saying 'God' doesn't want us to know or try to find out.

2. The next are those who argue for some religion or other. Religion has been around since humanity began, probably, and all the more persuasive for that. If religion is so common, and so old, it must serve a purpose. We could find out more about that.

3. The third lot are those who argue for a particular, revealed religion: Christianity, Islam, whatever, with Holy Book, rules, an interventionist God, etc. Shades into Dr Benway's Biblebots, who are the most unreachable. But many in this category could be asked to ponder on such crucial questions as 'why is your holy book uniquely true?' and 'why is your revelation so late and narrowly restricted in such a vast universe?' Possibly more effective than nitpicking bible quotations?

But no point in using heavy artillery against type 1, and arguments about type 2 would be more interesting than just insulting noises. Mixing levels doesn't help, though: we shouldn't assume that everyone who argues for 1 is a secret bible-thumper or believes in an 'invisible friend' without further clarification.

Other Comments by Polydactyl

1096. Comment #159902 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 11:23 am

 avatarEpeeist et al-

"David A Robertson" is, I think, the real DR. Click on the "Other Comments By" if you don't believe me. They go back quite a way.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1097. Comment #159904 by kaiserkriss on April 13, 2008 at 11:34 am

 avatarQuetz, epeeist, you are both correct! Looks like David can't resist the honey pot. Just like some drug, this site keeps attracting him over and over again.

Since he prays for us, I suspect he is just checking up on us to see if his prayers have been answered.

So I wonder what exactly did he ask for us in his prayers? Going from his track record, it would be nice to know before he MIGHT make some claim that his prayers for us have been answered some time in the future. Maybe it was specifically for RM? jcw

Other Comments by kaiserkriss

1098. Comment #159905 by epeeist on April 13, 2008 at 11:34 am

 avatarComment #159902 by Quetzalcoatl

"David A Robertson" is, I think, the real DR. Click on the "Other Comments By" if you don't believe me. They go back quite a way.
Now I am really baffled. Posts early in 2007 then a big gap until today. Was the id blocked, was it live and unused, being saved for a rainy day if other id's were blocked?

Other Comments by epeeist

1099. Comment #159907 by Quetzalcoatl on April 13, 2008 at 11:36 am

 avatarEpeeist-

I am guessing that it was blocked.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1100. Comment #159908 by black wolf on April 13, 2008 at 11:38 am

 avatarrelating to Polydactyl:
question to believer: 'what makes you think the Bible is more true than other religions' scriptures?'
answer: 'because Jesus rose from the dead, that's why, and that settles it.'

The sheer mindless bottiness is sometimes flabbergasting.

Other Comments by black wolf
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