










Lying for Jesus?Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
1302. Comment #160335 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 1:05 am
KardashovelAs for the story of Abraham, you'll note what God did when he saw that Abraham's faith was strong enough to carry out the deed... He staid his hand. No one staid the Romans hand when God offered His son up for sacrifice... but God's faith in us was strong enough to permit it to happen.
1303. Comment #160345 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 1:16 am
I was never sure whether I was a Schrodingerist, Heisenbergian, Diracist or Feynmannist, it really depended on what notation I was using at the time.
At the risk of just repeating what others have said here is another example. As a fully committed Einsteinian should I believe I can behave in anyway I like because everything is relative?
1304. Comment #160363 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 1:51 am
1305. Comment #160373 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 2:13 am
"It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'."1306. Comment #160382 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 2:26 am
In short, if there is no God, why is it wrong to lie for him?
1307. Comment #160383 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 2:27 am
So where on earth does RD think he's deriving all his 'oughts' in this long and derogatory article? If matter is all that exists, where are the moral standards coming from? Perhaps we can all set our own. There doesn't seem to be any reason not too..
1308. Comment #160386 by alovrin on April 14, 2008 at 2:37 am
Dr. Benway, What do you think about the context of your comments with folks like alovrin telling me that my worldview "sucks"?
1309. Comment #160388 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 2:56 am
It is an inconsistency that you see a lot. It is a bit like creationists attributing butterflies and birds of paradise to god but not crediting him with the malaria parasite or the small pox virus.
1310. Comment #160389 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 2:56 am
Kardy, somehow my questions don't feel answered to me. I'm still "hungry"!Jesus was quite clear on this, as portrayed in the gospels
God cannot possibly be the answer to where morality comes from because God never talks to us, we only hear from humans who claim to know what God wants but they all disagree with each other, sometimes violently. They cannot even agree on how to interpret their own "holy books"(that leads one to wonder if God might have needed a course in good communication)
1311. Comment #160395 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 3:12 am
So where on earth does RD think he's deriving all his 'oughts' in this long and derogatory article? If matter is all that exists, where are the moral standards coming from?
1312. Comment #160396 by Corylus on April 14, 2008 at 3:13 am
I would be honored to be your second.Appreciate the offer. I was curious to see if you would make it. Well done.
I would suggest that it would be more entertaining to debate the ilk on a matter of politics or culture though.HeeHee now that's funny. One of those pesky European pinkos on there! Anyhow, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. I get cross when non-Brits give me political advice on the running of Britain, so it would be inconsistent of me to do the same to a predominantly American audience.
I cannot fairly represent someone that emphatically believes that there is no God because that is simply foolish ...Oh, I never say that. I say that there is no compelling evidence for he/she/it and that he/she/it is a non-parsimonious explanation. However when people start giving God attributes (other than just that of a creator) then I am happy to point to inconsistencies.
1313. Comment #160440 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 5:24 am
Kardashovel: I believe that I am correct, and I am responding to dialog as if that were so.With respect to your inner experience, I accept your description of what it is like. I can't contradict you.
I have thought through the implications, but I cannot embrace your notion that I should retreat back to agnosticism (which is effectively the view that you are endorsing).Now I might accuse you of too many preconceptions. I ask only that you try to be honest in bearing witness to what you see within yourself and around you. I will return the favor.
Now I will accept that my religious beliefs should not be the basis of laws that govern you; but if you intend to silence me from stating my beliefs because it might intrude on your personal space, then all I can do is ask why are you talking to me?There are ways to talk about the inner voice without conveying the notion that this voice has some relevance to what others ought to do. Imagine trusting God to guide others as he guides you.
1314. Comment #160443 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 5:32 am
Geoff - you think that letting Myers into a film preview would give anyone an evolutionary advantage? :-)1315. Comment #160446 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 5:38 am
1316. Comment #160470 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 6:15 am
But seriously, if it's just evolved with us, then it's an 'is', not an 'ought'. And if someone has evolved to lie rather than tell the truth, well ok, that's another 'is'.
What right have we got to criticise them? Maybe they're ahead of us on the evolutionary timeline...???
1317. Comment #160483 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 6:41 am
Yep, but I don't think we can say that 'evolutionary stability' makes right any more than 'is so' does. It's the same thing anyway isn't it? And what no-one seems to be able to get around, from a materialistic worldview, is - why should we criticise someone for being less evolutionary stable anyway?1318. Comment #160510 by laphroaigman on April 14, 2008 at 7:05 am
Too funny... I make a point that the Dawkins apologists are always resorting to ad-hominem and/or personal attacks, and then my very first post is responded to with things like:1319. Comment #160516 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 7:13 am
It is a little difficult to get into this argument since all you have raised so far are problems.
All we have is 'is' - as you say there's no real 'ahead' for evolution so what makes one view better than another?
1320. Comment #160522 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:17 am
laphroaigman: If you dismiss the potential existence of anything you (as an individual) have NOT perceived (or cannot imagine), then how can you communicate intelligently upon it?It's good to imagine a wide range of potential explanations for any phenomenon. But that's merely the first step. Then you must develop ways to test your hypotheses. No one takes any hypothesis seriously that has not been tested.
1321. Comment #160524 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 7:18 am
There is no possibility of truly civil discourse with most of you. Failing a truly intellectual argument you all once again devolve into the realm of screaming, insulting, and just generally boorish behavior
Perhaps if you all wanted to truly be treated with the respect you all so obviously and desperately crave, you should at least try using NICE WORDS! Such constant sourness is most unappealing to the vast majority of civilized and polite people
Last I saw, vinegar usually catches fruit flies!
Oh, I get it! Fruit flies! Too funny. You only want to capture that which comports to your narrow world views!
I pray for all unbelievers every day
Peace be with you all, and you may find the joy and peace that surpasses understanding.
1322. Comment #160525 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 7:22 am
There is no possibility of truly civil discourse with most of you.
1323. Comment #160531 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 7:27 am
Too funny... I make a point that the Dawkins apologists are always resorting to ad-hominem and/or personal attacks, and then my very first post is responded to with things like:
1324. Comment #160532 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:27 am
And if I don't think there is any true ethical value to society surviving (after all why should there be? It's just another is/is-not) then I can theoretically just ignore society's norms, and as I've said above, how can anyone criticise me?Imagine a group of monkeys with no interest in survival and another very interested in survival. Over time the survivalists will out-number the anti-survivalists.
1325. Comment #160534 by Pintoman on April 14, 2008 at 7:28 am
It sounds like Dawkins is about to believe in God. He's so angry and defensive. He sure is a hypocrite, doesn't want a darwinian society. Doesn't know who Ben Stein is but let him interview him. Doesn't know that halibut are born with eyes on both sides of it's head. Has no idea how life started. Denies reality and says there is no God. If all is material, he is just material. How then can he make an argument for evolution? Chemical reactions in his brain dictate he says what he says, there is no reason for it. Why isn't Hitler right? Dawkins cannot say Hitler is right or wrong. How is helping the poor right or wrong. Dawkins can't say.1326. Comment #160535 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:28 am
Yep sure. I'm fairly busy so can't commit to a huge debate on here but will do my best to set out what I'm saying in this post... As I think I've indicated, I'm a theist (Christian to be more accurate) and I believe in a God who has set the standards. This doesn't mean that I'm necessarily more moral than any atheist, it just means that I can really say that lying for example, whether it's me or you who's doing it, is wrong - because I have an ultimate standard to compare it to. If there isn't an ultimate standard over us how can there be any ultimate morality? X thinks it's right to lie. Y thinks it's wrong to lie. Neither X or Y has any authority to criticise the other. Who has any right to criticise X? No-one. Because why pick on him and not on Y?1327. Comment #160536 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 7:29 am
Yep, but I don't think we can say that 'evolutionary stability' makes right any more than 'is so' does. It's the same thing anyway isn't it? And what no-one seems to be able to get around, from a materialistic worldview, is - why should we criticise someone for being less evolutionary stable anyway?
All we have is 'is' - as you say there's no real 'ahead' for evolution so what makes one view better than another?
1328. Comment #160538 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 7:30 am
1329. Comment #160540 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:31 am
Dr Benway - that sums up my point, there is no right or wrong for a materialist, just 'is' (survival). There's no point in criticising the person who lies. I think Dawkins should be more consistent.1330. Comment #160544 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:33 am
1331. Comment #160545 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:33 am
Yep, absolute morality about sums it up - a non-absolute morality is no morality at all.1332. Comment #160547 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 7:33 am
There is so much we as a species do not yet KNOW scientifically; and, I, personally, have confidence it will ever be thus.
1333. Comment #160549 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:35 am
Dr Benway, what we need is a standard. Otherwise nothing can be right or wrong so how we feel makes little difference.1334. Comment #160552 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 7:38 am
Steve:The problem here is that some people seem to think that they are experts about their own minds. This is odd, really, as they will admit to not being experts about their own bodies.
1335. Comment #160553 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:38 am
1336. Comment #160554 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 7:38 am
1337. Comment #160559 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 7:43 am
Dr Benway, what we need is a standard. Otherwise nothing can be right or wrong so how we feel makes little difference.
1338. Comment #160560 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 7:46 am
I don't think that I am an expert about my mind or body, but what I experienced does not call for such qualifications.
1339. Comment #160561 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 7:46 am
thisismeDr Benway, what we need is a standard. Otherwise nothing can be right or wrong so how we feel makes little difference.
1340. Comment #160563 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:49 am
Pintoman: Why isn't Hitler right? Dawkins cannot say Hitler is right or wrong. How is helping the poor right or wrong. Dawkins can't say.Forgive my presumptions; just trying to fast-forward a bit through a familiar dialog.
1341. Comment #160565 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 7:49 am
1342. Comment #160567 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 7:49 am
Brenway,Just because reading it gives me a little frisson of irritation - is there any particular reason why you misspell Dr. Benway's name?
Notice thisisme is quite "busy" at the moment, but shall vouchsafe us some valuable wisdom... in abridged fashion.As well as your reference MPhil pointed me at J.L. Mackie's "Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong". I am finding it stimulating. Why is it that the theists who come here and argue about ethics don't seem to have read any Aristotle, Kant or Spinoza? Or even McIntyre
1343. Comment #160570 by Vaal on April 14, 2008 at 7:54 am
1344. Comment #160571 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 7:54 am
thisismeI believe in a God who has set the standards.
1345. Comment #160572 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:54 am
Hang on Geoff - we don't have ethical 'advances' in evolution do we?1346. Comment #160574 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 7:55 am
Bonzai:It was a "test", but a test for what?
1347. Comment #160576 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 7:58 am
1348. Comment #160577 by Galactor on April 14, 2008 at 8:00 am
1349. Comment #160581 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 8:01 am
1350. Comment #160583 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 8:02 am
Don't do what a lot of theists do, and Al-Rawandi hints at. Namely disappearing because "I am busy now" when difficult questions occur. Your posts are spread out and fairly fragmentary. As such you are going to be vulnerable, as Kardashovel has noted, to the pile-on effect.
I'm glad someone above found my small input 'valuable' anyway.
1301. Comment #160334 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 1:00 am
Go back to the time of the Swedish crusade against the Finns and Laplanders and their conversion to Christianity. Why does their religion, which presumably they thought to be true, become myth and not metaphor?
This is also roughly the time that the legend of the grail started appearing, drawn from pre-Christian Celtic mythology. Is this myth, metaphor or simply fiction?
I would hazard a guess that the Noachic flood was thought to be literally true at this time. When the Epic of Gilgamesh is rediscovered with the story of the flood then why isn't the biblical story relegated to being a myth along with Utnapishtim? Why does it gain the status of metaphor? Why does it still retain this status even after significant evidence against a global flood is discovered?
And if it is metaphor, then why is it a better metaphor than the stories of Aesoop?
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