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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 1301 - 1350 of 9103 |

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1301. Comment #160334 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 1:00 am

 avatarComment #159983 by Quetzalcoatl
And to extend it in the same way we did with Artful Dodger (can anyone recall the answers he gave). How do you decide what is metaphor and what is literal, and how did you gain the authority to make that decision?
His answer essentially boiled down to "you just know". Then he had to leave because he was busy.
A pity really, because there is more to be explored.

Go back to the time of the Swedish crusade against the Finns and Laplanders and their conversion to Christianity. Why does their religion, which presumably they thought to be true, become myth and not metaphor?

This is also roughly the time that the legend of the grail started appearing, drawn from pre-Christian Celtic mythology. Is this myth, metaphor or simply fiction?

I would hazard a guess that the Noachic flood was thought to be literally true at this time. When the Epic of Gilgamesh is rediscovered with the story of the flood then why isn't the biblical story relegated to being a myth along with Utnapishtim? Why does it gain the status of metaphor? Why does it still retain this status even after significant evidence against a global flood is discovered?

And if it is metaphor, then why is it a better metaphor than the stories of Aesoop?

Other Comments by epeeist

1302. Comment #160335 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 1:05 am

Kardashovel

As for the story of Abraham, you'll note what God did when he saw that Abraham's faith was strong enough to carry out the deed... He staid his hand. No one staid the Romans hand when God offered His son up for sacrifice... but God's faith in us was strong enough to permit it to happen.


It was a "test", but a test for what?

God gave Abraham an order to carry out a brutal act, with the promise of making Abraham "the father of many nations" if he carried out the act. For those who don't know how the plot unfolds this sounds like a police entrapment. Undercover cop offers a reward if you commit a crime for him and bust you when you do.

One would expect Abraham to fail the test and be busted if he were to carry out God's inhumane command, as one should expect from any God worthy of worship.

But no, Abe did as he was told and was actually rewarded for that.

Whether God finally intervened to save Issac was irrelevant to the moral of the story, he could have not and Abraham would still win his prize for being obedient. Is blind obedience in the face of a completely immoral order a virtue for your God, and of course with a little material incentive thrown in?

No, for any moral God with a meaningful "test" Abraham should have failed.In Greek mythology, Zeus turned a king into a wolf as a punishment for sacrificing his son (to Zeus). But since this is a morally bankrupted egomaniac of a God Abraham was rewarded for behaviour worthy of a Nazi officer,--he executed his order faithfully, no matter how upsetting the order was to his conscience.

Well, unless Abraham was confident in advance that God would back track, in that case it wasn't so much a proof of his faith, but his ability of placing bets and that God was not only immoral, but stupid enough to be fooled.

P.S. I wonder what would have happened if Abraham actually behaved like a moral human being with dignity and told God to fuck off.

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1303. Comment #160345 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 1:16 am

 avatarComment #160118 by mmurray

At the risk of just repeating what others have said here is another example. As a fully committed Einsteinian should I believe I can behave in anyway I like because everything is relative?
I was never sure whether I was a Schrodingerist, Heisenbergian, Diracist or Feynmannist, it really depended on what notation I was using at the time.

Does that make me an indeterminist?

Other Comments by epeeist

1304. Comment #160363 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 1:51 am

 avatarEpeeist-

those are all good questions, and I'm sure if Artful_Dodger wasn't so busy, he would answer them.

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1305. Comment #160373 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 2:13 am

"It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'."
How true. So where on earth does RD think he's deriving all his 'oughts' in this long and derogatory article? If matter is all that exists, where are the moral standards coming from? Perhaps we can all set our own. There doesn't seem to be any reason not too. In which case perhaps Mathis is wrong by the Dawkins Law and Dawkins is wrong by the Mathis Law. Which would seem to remove all basis for any kind of morality.
In short, if there is no God, why is it wrong to lie for him?

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1306. Comment #160382 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 2:26 am

 avatarthisisme-

In short, if there is no God, why is it wrong to lie for him?


You know what, you're right. Since there is no God, we should all go around raping and killing, doing whatever we like. Why the hell not, right? [sarcasm off]

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1307. Comment #160383 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 2:27 am

So where on earth does RD think he's deriving all his 'oughts' in this long and derogatory article? If matter is all that exists, where are the moral standards coming from? Perhaps we can all set our own. There doesn't seem to be any reason not too..


Yeah, where do you think the "oughts" come from, or should come from?

This is an interesting question but it is irrelevant to the debate here because "God" doesn't offer any answer, it is just an "x" for answer unknown,--even if we pretend for argument's sake that atheistic philosophies don't have a satisfactory answer.

Why should we be always expected to have answers for your questions? We never claim to be the Oracle of Delphi for heaven's sake. The bottom line is you have no answer to any of the questions you raise, indeed not a single honest answer to any question. At least we have some pretty good ones and try to get more, as honestly and rigorously as possible. Your "revelation", on the other hand, is just a smug celebration of ignorance.

God cannot possibly be the answer to where morality comes from because God never talks to us, we only hear from humans who claim to know what God wants but they all disagree with each other, sometimes violently. They cannot even agree on how to interpret their own "holy books"(that leads one to wonder if God might have needed a course in good communication)

The morality of the OT is atrocious, we can do better morally without that kind of a God even if he exists,--see my post above on Abraham and Issac for one example of this God's moral bankruptcy.The morality in the NT is rather mundane, to the extent that it makes sense. Many pre Christian civilizations had developed highly sophisticated moral philosophies and ethics that makes the NT look like exactly what it is even when viewed in the best light,--semi coherent babbling of a somewhat original amateur moral philosopher with some good insights as well as a lot of nonsense.

Religious morality is fluid, its interpretations change over time. It is religious teachings that adapt to the changing moral Zeitgeist, not the other way around, Man created God in his image, As man becomes more civilized, God also become less savage.

Wherever we get our "oughts" from, they are not from thousand year olds "holy book" written by ignorant savages for sure.

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1308. Comment #160386 by alovrin on April 14, 2008 at 2:37 am

 avatarHey shovel

Dr. Benway, What do you think about the context of your comments with folks like alovrin telling me that my worldview "sucks"?


Try addressing your questions to me.

You say god Talks? to you. Well people under extreme duress like a climber lost in a crevasse with his arm trapped hears? a voice that tells him that in order to survive he will have to cut off his arm. He does and survives. The mountaineer upon reflection considers the voice? was his survival instinct nothing supernatural.
There is always an internal dialogue going on its like our own white noise. Its what those who meditate are attempting to, Im not sure exactly what silence/ mitigate.
But it is not an external entity trying to get our attention, or guiding us, our actions, our beliefs.

Thats just one reason why your socalled belief system sucks.
You dont like hearing that, well too bad.

I just wonder why theists come to this website trot out rubbish like yours, and seem to expect some sort of relativist acceptance of their drivel.

Other Comments by alovrin

1309. Comment #160388 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 2:56 am

 avatar1234. Comment #160105 by BillySands

It is an inconsistency that you see a lot. It is a bit like creationists attributing butterflies and birds of paradise to god but not crediting him with the malaria parasite or the small pox virus.


All together now:

All things dull and ugly,
All creatures short and squat,
All things rude and nasty,
The Lord God made the lot.
Each little snake that poisons,
Each little wasp that stings,
He made their brutish venom,
He made their horrid wings.
All things sick and cancerous,
All evil great and small,
All things foul and dangerous,
The Lord God made them all.
Each nasty little hornet,
Each beastly little squid,
Who made the spikey urchin,
Who made the sharks, He did.
All things scabbed and ulcerous,
All pox both great and small,
Putrid, foul and gangrenous,
The Lord God made them all.
AMEN.

-Monty Python (of course)

Other Comments by Geoff

1310. Comment #160389 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 2:56 am

Kardy, somehow my questions don't feel answered to me. I'm still "hungry"!
And then you come out with the "Jesus did..." and "Jesus said..."
How do you know? You already said that the Pauline spin is there and apparent. Seems Jesus' own family were written out of the whole Christianity story after his death. How can you then say, hand on heart, that what Jesus is meant to have said and done is correct and true?

Edit - like here
Jesus was quite clear on this, as portrayed in the gospels

I particularly liked your use of the word "portrayed". It is just a portrayal - the artist definitely had an agenda, a picture he wanted to portray. We know the influence Paul had on the gospels and on what the early Christian cultists had to read and to think, which sources he approved of and which he didn't. We can gather he was a regular Benny Hinn character, what with his sailing around the Med telling people everywhere what Jesus was meant to have said and, more importantly, what Jesus was meant to have meant.
C'mon, dude (if I may use your expression) - we're all above all that literalist stuff here. You talk to the big G, to the Father (who is also the Son....damn, bit like that 60 Minutes program I just watched about incestual families in a way). We know God, according to you, has a plan, seems we can gather he can bend the laws of Nature (virgin birth NOT resulting in a female - that's pretty damn good going. Wonder who the Y chromosome donor was...) and, more importantly, of man. Shit, he can't even do that nowadays - all those honour killings and stuff are done in his name, with seemingly his approval (he loves a sacrifice really. He doesn't have to say it in a booming voice coming out of the heavens, he tells people like you what he wants - the rest of us just listen and blindly accept because...well, it's God talking through you. What makes you different from that priest or imam who live their lives for God?).
It's so self apparent I see even Bonzai said it
God cannot possibly be the answer to where morality comes from because God never talks to us, we only hear from humans who claim to know what God wants but they all disagree with each other, sometimes violently. They cannot even agree on how to interpret their own "holy books"(that leads one to wonder if God might have needed a course in good communication)

Trust me, I hadn't even got as far as reading Bonzai's comment. Like Wallace to Darwin, I am to Bonzai - an independent source.

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1311. Comment #160395 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 3:12 am

 avatar1308. Comment #160373 by thisisme

So where on earth does RD think he's deriving all his 'oughts' in this long and derogatory article? If matter is all that exists, where are the moral standards coming from?


Essentially, they've evolved with us, in the sense that a society where immoral acts are common won't survive very long.

As Christopher Hitchens puts it (paraphrased):
Were the children of Israel really addicted to killing, stealing, etc. before Moses turned up with the commandments?

Other Comments by Geoff

1312. Comment #160396 by Corylus on April 14, 2008 at 3:13 am

 avatarComment 160188 by Kardashovel
I would be honored to be your second.
Appreciate the offer. I was curious to see if you would make it. Well done.

Unfortunately, looking at what you describe as 'Vox's sandbox' I see that the people are so far away from me that I don't think I would be able to get significant agreement on anything.
I would suggest that it would be more entertaining to debate the ilk on a matter of politics or culture though.
HeeHee now that's funny. One of those pesky European pinkos on there! Anyhow, I wouldn't feel comfortable doing that. I get cross when non-Brits give me political advice on the running of Britain, so it would be inconsistent of me to do the same to a predominantly American audience.

Again, thanks for the offer, but I'll let you off the hook :)

P.S. In answer to your question:
I cannot fairly represent someone that emphatically believes that there is no God because that is simply foolish ...
Oh, I never say that. I say that there is no compelling evidence for he/she/it and that he/she/it is a non-parsimonious explanation. However when people start giving God attributes (other than just that of a creator) then I am happy to point to inconsistencies.

Other Comments by Corylus

1313. Comment #160440 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 5:24 am

 avatar
Kardashovel: I believe that I am correct, and I am responding to dialog as if that were so.
With respect to your inner experience, I accept your description of what it is like. I can't contradict you.

When you use your inner experience to develop hypotheses about the world outside your inner experience, particularly about the inner experience of others, you err. You go beyond the data.

It's one thing to say, "I heard the voice of God saying X."

It's another to say, "I heard the voice of God saying X, and therefore you ought..."

I have thought through the implications, but I cannot embrace your notion that I should retreat back to agnosticism (which is effectively the view that you are endorsing).
Now I might accuse you of too many preconceptions. I ask only that you try to be honest in bearing witness to what you see within yourself and around you. I will return the favor.

Think of me as a closet Quaker. That might help.

Now I will accept that my religious beliefs should not be the basis of laws that govern you; but if you intend to silence me from stating my beliefs because it might intrude on your personal space, then all I can do is ask why are you talking to me?
There are ways to talk about the inner voice without conveying the notion that this voice has some relevance to what others ought to do. Imagine trusting God to guide others as he guides you.

Imagine that God's guidance is gentle and subtle, like a radio station you can hardly hear. A charismatic, dominant personality claiming to hear God's voice can seem louder than the still, small voice within. And so people listen to the other human being rather than the Holy Spirit. Thus they become spiritual slaves to another human being.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1314. Comment #160443 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 5:32 am

Geoff - you think that letting Myers into a film preview would give anyone an evolutionary advantage? :-)
But seriously, if it's just evolved with us, then it's an 'is', not an 'ought'. And if someone has evolved to lie rather than tell the truth, well ok, that's another 'is'. What right have we got to criticise them? Maybe they're ahead of us on the evolutionary timeline...???
And if D is right, all his criticisms (and all my criticisms) are, is the equivalent of a lot of bubbling scum, so I don't know why we're bothering really :-)

Other Comments by thisisme

1315. Comment #160446 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 5:38 am

 avatarHi thisisme.

The golden rule is a good place to start for an ethical system. For any society to survive, the majority must embrace the idea that others should be treated as we would like to be treated.

A small percentage of any society will be freeloaders. Thus the need for police.

There's a branch of mathematics called "game theory" that effectively models the distribution of altruistic and selfish strategies in populations under various conditions.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1316. Comment #160470 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 6:15 am

 avatar1317. Comment #160443 by thisisme
But seriously, if it's just evolved with us, then it's an 'is', not an 'ought'. And if someone has evolved to lie rather than tell the truth, well ok, that's another 'is'.


Indeed so. However, as Dr. Benway says, some strategies are more "evolutionarily stable" than others. I'd suggest reading "The Selfish Gene" or similar books, for a more detailed treatment of the concept.

What right have we got to criticise them? Maybe they're ahead of us on the evolutionary timeline...???


There isn't a sense of "ahead" in evolution, as I'm sure you know. Many other species act in ways that we would consider "moral", and for exactly the same underlying reasons that we do.

Other Comments by Geoff

1317. Comment #160483 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 6:41 am

Yep, but I don't think we can say that 'evolutionary stability' makes right any more than 'is so' does. It's the same thing anyway isn't it? And what no-one seems to be able to get around, from a materialistic worldview, is - why should we criticise someone for being less evolutionary stable anyway?
All we have is 'is' - as you say there's no real 'ahead' for evolution so what makes one view better than another?

Dr Benway, that doesn't really explain how anything is wrong - say I can lie, exclude people from film viewings, etc, etc, and get away with it, is there any reason why I shouldn't? I don't suppose the police are going to be after me for it. And if I don't think there is any true ethical value to society surviving (after all why should there be? It's just another is/is-not) then I can theoretically just ignore society's norms, and as I've said above, how can anyone criticise me?

Other Comments by thisisme

1318. Comment #160510 by laphroaigman on April 14, 2008 at 7:05 am

Too funny... I make a point that the Dawkins apologists are always resorting to ad-hominem and/or personal attacks, and then my very first post is responded to with things like:

"drivel"
"piss off"
"laughable"
"Troll"
"taking a piss"
"deliberately starting a fight"

And a bunch more I can't remember just now because there are so absolutely MANY of them...

Once again PROVING my point.

There is no possibility of truly civil discourse with most of you. Failing a truly intellectual argument you all once again devolve into the realm of screaming, insulting, and just generally boorish behavior.

This isn't surprising since you all have already dismissed, a-priori, the potential existence of well over half of the total realm of creation (there is so little we puny humans actually DO know, married as so many obviously are to the "god" of the 3 pounds of greyish mush in their skulls)...

If you dismiss the potential existence of anything you (as an individual) have NOT perceived (or cannot imagine), then how can you communicate intelligently upon it? You are playing in a sandbox with artificially restricted dimensions. So, you act as any child does in a sandbox when something is said about their toys, and very promptly throw a tantrum.

There is so much we as a species do not yet KNOW scientifically; and, I, personally, have confidence it will ever be thus. When (and as!) new facts are uncovered, they can be integrated into such a worldview seamlessly. They do not prove the absolute truth of the statement "we humans scientifically know everything"; nor do they refute the truth that we do NOT know everything", they simply add one more datapoint that moves us asymptotically towards BETTER - but never perfect - understanding.

Lack of, or not believing in faith is every bit as much a demonstration of "faith" as faith itself.

To the person who claimed my pointing out of Dawkins hypocrisy itself was somehow a personal attack: Well, what part of that obvservation "WAS AN AD-HOMINEM"? There was no gratuitous insult? No name calling?

And, it was TRUE! Pointing out facts is not being insulting (if you are being intellectually honest).

There are only two possibilities, here:

1) it was either pure hypocrisy: paraprhasing: "I believe in the absolute truth and reality of A, but do NOT believe that A should be applied to how we run things or how I approach life"... OR, potentially more disconcertingly...

2) it was some type of reality denying pyschosis: again paraphrasing: "I believe in A, and I believe in factual reality and that factual reality should be applied to running my life, but I simultaneously don't believe in A" (somehow)...

It fascinates me how loud, and insulting, all those who profess virulent atheism and/or darwiniasm, end up becoming. The emotionalism, the virulent anger. It is really quite sad.

BTW: just saying by way of EXAMPLE: I've noticed similar behavior on the part of 8-10 year old children - that wonderful age where they are approaching the "so called age of reason", but not yet fully integrating all aspects of emotional and intellectual health and maturity necessary to not suddenly give way to emotional and/or irrational outburts and/or mental fugues...

Perhaps if you all wanted to truly be treated with the respect you all so obviously and desperately crave, you should at least try using NICE WORDS! Such constant sourness is most unappealing to the vast majority of civilized and polite people.

Or is all you really want to accomplish that peculiar joy of capturing all that can captured with vinegar instead of using honey?

Last I saw, vinegar usually catches fruit flies!

Oh, I get it! Fruit flies! Too funny. You only want to capture that which comports to your narrow world views!

I pray for all unbelievers every day.

Peace be with you all, and you may find the joy and peace that surpasses understanding.

Other Comments by laphroaigman

1319. Comment #160516 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 7:13 am

 avatarComment #160483 by thisisme

All we have is 'is' - as you say there's no real 'ahead' for evolution so what makes one view better than another?
It is a little difficult to get into this argument since all you have raised so far are problems.

You presumably have some kind of ethical basis to the way you act towards others. Tell us how you came to it and why then we may be able to have a more fruitful discussion.

Other Comments by epeeist

1320. Comment #160522 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:17 am

 avatar
laphroaigman: If you dismiss the potential existence of anything you (as an individual) have NOT perceived (or cannot imagine), then how can you communicate intelligently upon it?
It's good to imagine a wide range of potential explanations for any phenomenon. But that's merely the first step. Then you must develop ways to test your hypotheses. No one takes any hypothesis seriously that has not been tested.

This simple requirement, that an hypothesis must be tested, is how we filter out delusions, lies, and wrong-headed ideas. Even religious scientists recognize the need for this.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1321. Comment #160524 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 7:18 am

 avatarLaphroaigman-

There is no possibility of truly civil discourse with most of you. Failing a truly intellectual argument you all once again devolve into the realm of screaming, insulting, and just generally boorish behavior


Weren't you just complaining about personal attacks? Or do you not consider it personal when you smear everyone on an entire website?

Perhaps if you all wanted to truly be treated with the respect you all so obviously and desperately crave, you should at least try using NICE WORDS! Such constant sourness is most unappealing to the vast majority of civilized and polite people


If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen. People are free to communicate as they wish; just because they choose to do so in a manner that you do not approve of, does not give you the right to speak for the "vast majority" of any grouping. Respect is a two way street. It is obvious from your post that you have very little of it to spare for atheists.

Last I saw, vinegar usually catches fruit flies!

Oh, I get it! Fruit flies! Too funny. You only want to capture that which comports to your narrow world views!


Ironic that an accusation of narrowness comes from a believer. Didn't Jesus say something about the narrow road?

As for your insult, I'm afraid you didn't articulate it very well. Are you calling us gay, or saying that there is something wrong with being gay?

I pray for all unbelievers every day


You might try spinning round repeatedly until you get dizzy and fall over. It'll accomplish much the same thing.

Peace be with you all, and you may find the joy and peace that surpasses understanding.


And may you learn not to be so pompous.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1322. Comment #160525 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 7:22 am

 avatarComment #160510 by laphroaigman
There is no possibility of truly civil discourse with most of you.


Then don't :) Just have discourse with those you want to and ignore the rest. That is quite acceptable on an open forum.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

1323. Comment #160531 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 7:27 am

 avatarComment #160510 by laphroaigman

Too funny... I make a point that the Dawkins apologists are always resorting to ad-hominem and/or personal attacks, and then my very first post is responded to with things like:

You come to the site, make an assertion that someone is a hypocrite and intellectually dishonest, talk about "atheist hordes", rant with SCARY CAPITALS and little coherence and then you wonder why people deride you?

Did you come here to have a reasonable discussion, or simply to engage in quarrel dialogue? If the former then look at Kardashovel's posts and the responses he gets. Personally though, I think you are really here to vent your apoplectic ire and besmirch the name of a good whisky.

Other Comments by epeeist

1324. Comment #160532 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:27 am

 avatar
And if I don't think there is any true ethical value to society surviving (after all why should there be? It's just another is/is-not) then I can theoretically just ignore society's norms, and as I've said above, how can anyone criticise me?
Imagine a group of monkeys with no interest in survival and another very interested in survival. Over time the survivalists will out-number the anti-survivalists.

There's no need to argue against an anti-survivalist. That point of view will never catch on.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1325. Comment #160534 by Pintoman on April 14, 2008 at 7:28 am

It sounds like Dawkins is about to believe in God. He's so angry and defensive. He sure is a hypocrite, doesn't want a darwinian society. Doesn't know who Ben Stein is but let him interview him. Doesn't know that halibut are born with eyes on both sides of it's head. Has no idea how life started. Denies reality and says there is no God. If all is material, he is just material. How then can he make an argument for evolution? Chemical reactions in his brain dictate he says what he says, there is no reason for it. Why isn't Hitler right? Dawkins cannot say Hitler is right or wrong. How is helping the poor right or wrong. Dawkins can't say.

Other Comments by Pintoman

1326. Comment #160535 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:28 am

Yep sure. I'm fairly busy so can't commit to a huge debate on here but will do my best to set out what I'm saying in this post... As I think I've indicated, I'm a theist (Christian to be more accurate) and I believe in a God who has set the standards. This doesn't mean that I'm necessarily more moral than any atheist, it just means that I can really say that lying for example, whether it's me or you who's doing it, is wrong - because I have an ultimate standard to compare it to. If there isn't an ultimate standard over us how can there be any ultimate morality? X thinks it's right to lie. Y thinks it's wrong to lie. Neither X or Y has any authority to criticise the other. Who has any right to criticise X? No-one. Because why pick on him and not on Y?
Unless... there's a God who created X, and created Y, and has set standards of how they are to behave to each other.
Furthermore, if all there is is matter, then all that's happening when X lies is that the matter is moving in a slightly different way to how it moves when Y tells the truth. How can we turn round and say the atoms are wrong to move that way? They didn't have much choice.
See my point?

Other Comments by thisisme

1327. Comment #160536 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 7:29 am

 avatar1320. Comment #160483 by thisisme

Yep, but I don't think we can say that 'evolutionary stability' makes right any more than 'is so' does. It's the same thing anyway isn't it? And what no-one seems to be able to get around, from a materialistic worldview, is - why should we criticise someone for being less evolutionary stable anyway?
All we have is 'is' - as you say there's no real 'ahead' for evolution so what makes one view better than another?


Nothing at all, except in the sense of what works best. There really isn't a "better", or a "right", in that sense, any more than saying one species is "better" than another.

It seems to me that what you perceive as criticism (of a less effective ESS) is more accurately described as pointing out its weaknesses in survival terms.

I have to admit I'm still not sure what your point is; are you tending towards postulating an "absolute morality"?

Other Comments by Geoff

1328. Comment #160538 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 7:30 am

 avatarI'm going to go horribly off-topic for a moment. I've recently published my second book. On the off-chance that anyone is interested, more detail on it can be found here:

http://www.lulu.com/content/2317231

Thanks. And apologies for the flagrant self-promotion.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1329. Comment #160540 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:31 am

Dr Benway - that sums up my point, there is no right or wrong for a materialist, just 'is' (survival). There's no point in criticising the person who lies. I think Dawkins should be more consistent.

Other Comments by thisisme

1330. Comment #160544 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:33 am

 avatarthisisme, you seem to assume that we need a Big Daddy to give us the right to speak out against something we feel is wrong.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1331. Comment #160545 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:33 am

Yep, absolute morality about sums it up - a non-absolute morality is no morality at all.

Other Comments by thisisme

1332. Comment #160547 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 7:33 am

 avatarlaphroaigman,



There is so much we as a species do not yet KNOW scientifically; and, I, personally, have confidence it will ever be thus.




Therefore god.


Well reasoned sir. I am disarmed.


You are simply whining about the "mean atheists".


Why are we upset?


I can only speak for myself when I say that belief in God has ended so many promising lives. That belief in God has created so much mental anguish. That belief in God has caused so much oppression. That belief in God has led to a deadly fatalism.

Organized religion has been hindering human progress like a lead ball attached to a leg. Thus when people come here, armed with nothing but their "feelings" that a god exists. With reasoning like I cite above, you will be ridiculed.

So if you have some actual evidence to produce, then do so. If you simply want to whine about "mean atheists" then do continue, but you will excuse me if I point you out as exactly that, a whiner.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1333. Comment #160549 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:35 am

Dr Benway, what we need is a standard. Otherwise nothing can be right or wrong so how we feel makes little difference.

Other Comments by thisisme

1334. Comment #160552 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 7:38 am

Steve:
The problem here is that some people seem to think that they are experts about their own minds. This is odd, really, as they will admit to not being experts about their own bodies.


I don't think that I am an expert about my mind or body, but what I experienced does not call for such qualifications.

If I get a sharp pain in my side, I would consult a doctor before I jumped to any conclusions about the cause. But if I look down and see an arrow sticking into my love handle, I won't need an MD to know the source of my problem.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1335. Comment #160553 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:38 am

 avatarthisisme, have you ever shared a flat? Carpooled? Had a friend? Dated? If so, you know that people negotiate the rules of fair play.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1336. Comment #160554 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 7:38 am

 avatarBrenway,




Notice thisisme is quite "busy" at the moment, but shall vouchsafe us some valuable wisdom... in abridged fashion.


How come every time one of these intellectual halflings shows up, I have to explain Kant's Foundations of the Metaphysics of Morals to them. I may just have a prepared statement for them.


thisisme,


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Groundwork_of_the_Metaphysic_of_Morals


Give it a read if you can find the "time".

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1337. Comment #160559 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 7:43 am

 avatar1336. Comment #160549 by thisisme


Dr Benway, what we need is a standard. Otherwise nothing can be right or wrong so how we feel makes little difference.


Yes, but why do you assert that such a standard must be imposed from above?
As in Dr. Benway's examples, standards can be arrived at simply via consensus.
Indeed, standards can change as consensus changes: for example the relatively recent ethical advances in the (more) equal treatment of women, homosexuals, other racial groups - often despite religion, not because of it.

Other Comments by Geoff

1338. Comment #160560 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 7:46 am

 avatarComment #160552 by Kardashovel
I don't think that I am an expert about my mind or body, but what I experienced does not call for such qualifications.


I really don't understand this point of view. Someone as clearly literate and educated as you surely must know about the kind of delusion that our own minds can inflict on us (some of it is necessary). Even if we hear explicit voices, that is a common neurological phenomenon, and is certainly not evidence for such voices being from God (even if they say they are).

Having a feeling that the "inner communication" is from that source is no justification, as you are using information from the same source whose validity is under question.

Incidentally, if you think we can be in any way sure about or bodies or sensations, I suggest you look up "phantom limbs".

Other Comments by Steve Zara

1339. Comment #160561 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 7:46 am

thisisme

Dr Benway, what we need is a standard. Otherwise nothing can be right or wrong so how we feel makes little difference.


And how do you suggest we should get that standard and apply it?

As epeeist said, until you tell us what your position is it is difficult to have a meaningful discussion.

Other Comments by Bonzai

1340. Comment #160563 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 7:49 am

 avatar
Pintoman: Why isn't Hitler right? Dawkins cannot say Hitler is right or wrong. How is helping the poor right or wrong. Dawkins can't say.
Forgive my presumptions; just trying to fast-forward a bit through a familiar dialog.

You believe God establishes right and wrong.
I point out that we don't get God; we get His self-appointed spokespersons.

You say the Bible is true.
I say the Bible requires interpretation, and there are many interpretations.

You say the Holy Spirit helps guide us in our understanding of the Bible.
I say, people offer contradictory claims regarding God's will. Some say we must shun homosexuals. Some say that's not required. How are we to sort which is correct?

If the conversation goes well, you will concede that we must use our judgment regarding what is good and what is not good, to sort these claims. Which puts us where we started: using our judgment.

If the conversation doesn't go well, you will say that you "just know" what God wants. If only I would pray and accept Jesus, I would "just know" in the same manner as yourself.

I then will feel sad that you cannot recognize that there is no magic to guide us.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1341. Comment #160565 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 7:49 am

 avataral-rawandi, thanks for that link, I must admit to never having read Kant. I've skimmed it just now, I shall read it properly later.

Other Comments by Geoff

1342. Comment #160567 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 7:49 am

 avatarComment #160554 by al-rawandi
Brenway,
Just because reading it gives me a little frisson of irritation - is there any particular reason why you misspell Dr. Benway's name?
Notice thisisme is quite "busy" at the moment, but shall vouchsafe us some valuable wisdom... in abridged fashion.
As well as your reference MPhil pointed me at J.L. Mackie's "Ethics: Inventing Right and Wrong". I am finding it stimulating. Why is it that the theists who come here and argue about ethics don't seem to have read any Aristotle, Kant or Spinoza? Or even McIntyre

Other Comments by epeeist

1343. Comment #160570 by Vaal on April 14, 2008 at 7:54 am

 avatarAh, the red herring of morals arose from religion..

We had a good rebuttal of this and the usual straw man theist arguments some time ago..

http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,1780,You-cant-be-moral-without-God,RichardDawkinsnet,page1#comments

No point going through it all again every time some new theist comes on line.

Josh, can we have a permanent link to these rebuttals on the front page?

Other Comments by Vaal

1344. Comment #160571 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 7:54 am

thisisme

I believe in a God who has set the standards.


Ok, so you did tell us what you believe, I missed that.

Read my post #1310, or Dr.Benway's #1343.

Other Comments by Bonzai

1345. Comment #160572 by thisisme on April 14, 2008 at 7:54 am

Hang on Geoff - we don't have ethical 'advances' in evolution do we?

A standard needs to be imposed from above, because otherwise there's no way to say which of the multiple standards people follow is right. It's ok while people agree, as far as it goes, but was it Mr X or Ms Y in my previous example who got it right?
I've done my best to answer people's questions now - I don't think anyone has answered most of mine yet. I'm not expecting everyone to have all the answers, but if anyone wants to try, please read all my posts as it's a bit spread out now!
This is certainly a subject that needs a lot more debate, in public really, to really hone down the different points of view.
I'm glad someone above found my small input 'valuable' anyway.

Other Comments by thisisme

1346. Comment #160574 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 7:55 am

Bonzai:
It was a "test", but a test for what?


Faith. God knew that Abraham had some faith based on his willingness to speak with Him and follow commands (although he wavered some with Hagar).

In the context of a direct and continuous physical presence, "faith" is closer to its root meaning of "trust in", and does not carry the connotation of "belief in". If God is talking to you on a daily basis, of course you will believe He exists. But will you trust Him and obey Him? If he says that you will have a son by Sarah, even though she is barren, will you then take Sarah's council to accept a surrogate?

God was looking for the man who's descendants would be His archetypal people. He needed them to have strong faith (which I believe is in fact a physical phenomenon and is likely inheritable).

So he set for Abraham the most difficult task imaginable: to slay his own son.

I have a son. If God told me to slay him, I don't think I could do it regardless of any perceived pay off. I would sooner kill myself, and I would tell God to choose another with more faith.

But I am a modern man, with the context of Christianity to guide me... Abraham's context was much different. In general, this is my feeling about much of the Old Testament. It must be understood in the context of humanity lifting itself out of animal ethics, and into harsh legalism and an organization that permits cohesion and technical progress.

It isn't pretty, but God could not steer us from primitives to Christians by snapping His fingers. The process is still ongoing, and it is still subject to massive setbacks.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1347. Comment #160576 by Quetzalcoatl on April 14, 2008 at 7:58 am

 avatarBack on topic.

Kardashovel-

you're forgetting the fact that God wouldn't need to test Abraham's faith- he would already know how strong it was, what with the being omniscient and all.

Unless, that is, you consider that the concept of God being omniscient was not invented until later on. Then it makes sense.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1348. Comment #160577 by Galactor on April 14, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatarComment #160534 by Pintoman

Your comments show you up to be a know-nothing. A "Darwinian Society"? What the hell is that? Is that the society of the religious right in the USA where there is no decent medical care for the have-nots and poverty is rife amongst their citizens?

Darwinism - the scientific theory of how natural selection acts upon randomly mutating organisms.
Gravity - the scientific theory of how mass exerts force on other mass

Darwinian society - a term adopted by lunatics who didn't understand the first thing about what Darwin's theory is that is used to describe some sort of life based upon a fight for survival that has no bearing on reality and has absolutely no relevance at all to the theory proposed by Darwin.
Gravitational society - about the same level of drivel that can be found in your comment.

Dawkins is saying that mankind has grown out of the genetic forces and compulsions that drive the rest of the world's species to survive and procreate. He wrote a book back in 1974 - the Selfish Gene - that explains this: gene's are selfish but humans have outgrown this selfishness and have evolved compassion & decency.

What's hypocritical about someone who "studies" the natural law of Darwinism (i.e., not the bullshit about its social mis-application) saying that they don't advocate a Darwinian society - whatever that is?

Twit!

Other Comments by Galactor

1349. Comment #160581 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 8:01 am

 avatarepeeist,




Because in the American athletic world, using someone's last name is a means of appreciation and a sign of acceptance.


I will update my American cultural deficiencies to meet the high standards of British uptightness. :-)

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1350. Comment #160583 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 8:02 am

 avatarComment #160572 by thisisme

I'm glad someone above found my small input 'valuable' anyway.
Don't do what a lot of theists do, and Al-Rawandi hints at. Namely disappearing because "I am busy now" when difficult questions occur. Your posts are spread out and fairly fragmentary. As such you are going to be vulnerable, as Kardashovel has noted, to the pile-on effect.

Could I suggest that you take some time out, read the referencs that Al-Rawandi and I have given you, formulate a coherent version of your views and come back with that. It should make discussion much more productive.

Other Comments by epeeist
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