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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 1401 - 1450 of 9336 |

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1401. Comment #160684 by The Reverend Dark on April 14, 2008 at 9:23 am

 avatarSschaller,

Intelligent Design proponents have not brought anything to the table as of yet. Their ideas have been refuted time and time again.

It is a question of evidence.

Why should they be on the school curriculum until they have proven their theory?

They simply do not have game. They are welcome to try and play, but until they have evidence they are on the sidelines.

Irreducible complexity has been slapped back time and time again, by real answers - no simply goddidit.

The issue is that ID proponents are trying to claim position before letting their facts speak (because they do not have facts, only meally mouthed assertions.)

Shayne

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

1402. Comment #160686 by Dr Benway on April 14, 2008 at 9:26 am

 avatarsschaller, the premise of "Expelled" is dishonest. There are no peer-reviewed scientific papers written by ID proponents that have been submitted to journals for publication that were rejected due to bias.

The emphasis on a handful of individuals who felt hassled by co-workers is a misdirection. Science is about papers much more than people.

If Ben Stein could reference papers inappropriately suppressed, he would have a point.

Other Comments by Dr Benway

1403. Comment #160698 by Frankus1122 on April 14, 2008 at 9:45 am

 avatarKardashovel,
Don't go.
I am nearing the end of my lunch hour so I don't have much time but reading through the last few pages of posts I am struck by something.
I was listening to a radio program that was talking about the Dali Lama. He said he did not want people to convert to Buddhism. He felt people should explore what is good in their own religious cultural traditions. He read Biblical scripture to a group of Christians and tears welled up in his eyes as he read some of the more beautiful passages that explored compassion. He is a defender of the goodness that can be found in Islam. He is a supporter of science and has participated in scientific investigation into the benefits of meditation.
I kind of like him more after hearing this radio program. He is a vegetarian who ocassionally eats meat. He likes to laugh and joke around a lot. I get the sense that all the mystical stuff that is associated with Buddhism is not all that important to him. What is important is that we treat each other decently.
What do we mean by "decent"? What is right and what is wrong? How do we determine this without God? Dr. Benway has suggested that we already do this without God. If you need God to help you figure this out, well, okay. We are all at different points in our development and understanding.
I think what worries a lot of people on this site is the fact that many people believe they do have absolute answers when the evidence proves otherwise.
Sorry, I have to go now.
I did not express myself very well but it is all I can do for now.
You can be good without God.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

1404. Comment #160710 by MaxD on April 14, 2008 at 10:03 am

 avatarLaprospoideal (however you spell it)
Said:
This isn't surprising since you all have already dismissed, a-priori, the potential existence of well over half of the total realm of creation (there is so little we puny humans actually DO know, married as so many obviously are to the "god" of the 3 pounds of greyish mush in their skulls)...

What does that mean exactly? And how can you say it with such assurity?

You also say,
Lack of, or not believing in faith is every bit as much a demonstration of "faith" as faith itself.


I'm not sure you quite get it. It isn't faith to have none. To not be convinced of any theistic position based on the fact that there is no evidence for it, or at leastt not having been exposed to it, is not a faith claim. It is a simple statement of internal facts.

Well there is no evidence for any of these Gods so until such time as this evidence comes in I will just live as if they don't exist. They may. Just as Carl Sagan noted there may be an invisible, incorporeal, heatless-fire breathing dragon in his neighbor's garage. It is simple not yet verified.

I am not making any faith claim, unless you want to strip the word of its theological significance.

You lament:
BTW: just saying by way of EXAMPLE: I've noticed similar behavior on the part of 8-10 year old children - that wonderful age where they are approaching the "so called age of reason", but not yet fully integrating all aspects of emotional and intellectual health and maturity necessary to not suddenly give way to emotional and/or irrational outburts and/or mental fugues...


Perhaps if you all wanted to truly be treated with the respect you all so obviously and desperately crave, you should at least try using NICE WORDS! Such constant sourness is most unappealing to the vast majority of civilized and polite people.


Clearly you are here to have rational dialogue. I'm not sure if you missed the ad hominems embedded in this little smear. They are present in what you imply. No you are just on the site to prompt a flamefest.

And your last bit about catching more flies with honey than vinegar prompts me to a quote from Al Franken (who may have got it somewhere else) who the hell wants to attract flies?

Other Comments by MaxD

1405. Comment #160711 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 10:03 am

I was basically good without God for over thirty years.

I am now basically good with God.

I don't know any serious person (Christian or otherwise) that would assert that one cannot be good without God.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1406. Comment #160714 by MaxD on April 14, 2008 at 10:08 am

 avatarKardashovel,
You will have to define serious I think.

Other Comments by MaxD

1407. Comment #160717 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 10:11 am

The claim, which many here are debating, is that agnostics cannot have any objective basis for morality... be that as it may, that does not imply that an agnostic cannot be good.

This is obvious to even a casual observer. It would take a real sponge head to assert that anyone who does not believe in a god is evil.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1408. Comment #160721 by Geoff on April 14, 2008 at 10:18 am

 avatar1407. Comment #160679 by sschaller
The Scientific community has two options:
(snip)
2. Discuss the Evidence -
Tell Intelligent Design proponents to "Prove It." If they have anything legitimately scientific to offer, the scientific community would benefit. If not, they will simply dig their own graves. They will not even have the benefit of whining that they are not allowed at the table.

(snip)

Let's see what they have, and let the facts speak for themselves.


Which is precisely what was done, and is still being done.
Check out any post on this comments page, or better still in the "debunking creationism" section of the fora, and you will see constant cries of "show us your evidence". To date, none has been forthcoming.
Read the transcript of the Dover trial, too; that amounts to the same process. Most especially, read Judge Jones' summing up at the end.

You use the term "Intelligent Design proponents". Their own literature contains a reference to "cdesign proponentsists", where they couldn't even get their revisionism working properly.

Other Comments by Geoff

1409. Comment #160752 by Vaal on April 14, 2008 at 11:10 am

 avatar1407. Comment #160679 by sschaller

The Scientific community has two options:
1. Silence Opponents -
Shut out all debate on the subject, just as Galileo was silenced when suggesting radically different ideas to the standard accepted theories


Let's see, Galileo was threatened with death and had to spend the rest of his life under house arrest, and couldn't publish his work until after his death. There was no theory behind the Church's claim, it was no more than religous dogma based on ancient text. The clergy were appalled that the Earth and humanity were toppled from the pedestal of being at the centre of the Universe, and were prepared to murder in the vilest manner possible to stifle anything that contradicted their word view, as occurred to the unfortunate Giordano Bruno, who was burnt alive at the stake. The age of ignorance had finally had a breach in the Dyke, all those millenniums wasted, particularly since the Greeks knew over 2000 years before, that the Earth revolved around the sun. What I find just as disgraceful is that it took till 1992 before the Church finally admitted it was wrong. Not exactly a hot line to God, is it?

ID is no more than Biblical Creationism reinvented. It is not science, it is religion. Where we do get upset, and quite rightly, is when this is portrayed in the invidious language of "Expelled" as anti freedom of speech. The appalling record of pseudo-science, propaganda, disinformation, snide trickery and outright lies as a policy of the ID'iots is a disgrace. Until they show evidence of Intelligent design, instead of "God did it", and "God of the gaps" then they will be accorded the contempt they deserve. To give them a level playing field to the works of Galileo, Newton, Einstein, Darwin and other great scientists, is to compare modern science to flat Earthism. They would take us from the Space shuttle back to the wooden wheel. Ludicrous.

Personally, I had no problem with people believing that they wanted, but in the light of a majority of people in the States actually believing the world is 6000 years old based on archaic plagiarized Babylonian creation myth, then yes, it has be fought tooth and nail, otherwise the age of darkness and ignorance will overtake us again, and that cannot be allowed to happen. I will fight tooth and nail to ensure my children are not taught this anachronistic nonsense as fact in school. I have no problem to it being taught in Religious education, just as all other Creation myths.

Now, when they have some facts and are able to demonstrate their views with a scientific method, then that will be when we look up and listen. However, given their current tactics, I suspect they know that that will never happen.

Other Comments by Vaal

1410. Comment #160755 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 11:17 am

So let's say ID is given equal time. What do they have to teach other than saying Darwinism is wrong?

Naysaying is not much of a scientific program, is it? Show us some positive content man. Tell us something about how the intelligent designer accomplished his task.

Other Comments by Bonzai

1411. Comment #160758 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 11:21 am

 avatarComment #160664 by laphroaigman

Personally I don't find your scary capitals or bad French to be threatening at all.
I came here to a) learn where you all are coming from, b) to posit some questions that just might get some of you thinking in broader terms, and c) to try and be reasonable..
Always glad to learn something new and to have my horizons broadened. What do you want to talk about?

I can do the differences in styles in modern French, Italian and Hungarian fencing coaching methods, music in Tudor England (I don't do the history of the period, for that you will need a professional historian, someone like Cartomancer), somewhat outdated quantum mechanics from when I did my Ph.D, I know an amount about evolution (though again someone like maxD or Steve Zara would be better) but can't do it in detail, enough about the philosophy of science to know that Intelligent Design isn't science (though you would want a professional philosopher like MPhil, Quine or Spinoza if you want more depth). I don't really do theology, you would want someone who actually did that at University, Al-Rawandi would be a good choice. I am not sure what qualifications Billy Sands or the Rev. Shayne Dark have in the subject but they seem to do it pretty well.

Its a time back but I could do the International Regulations for the Prevention of Collision at Sea, I used to teach the shore based Yachtsman Offshore course.

So where do you want to go?

Other Comments by epeeist

1412. Comment #160759 by Kardashovel on April 14, 2008 at 11:22 am

What do they have to teach other than saying Darwinism is wrong?


Butterflys are purdy.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1413. Comment #160763 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 11:24 am

 avatarepeeist,




My father was a quite good fencer at University here in the US. I don't know if that is comparable to English fencing.

I used to take his old "sword" out when I was 10 or so (It was a sword to a 10 year old), and do battle with the various fruits in our orchard.

I vanquished many a swashbuckling grapefruit.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1414. Comment #160769 by alan baylis on April 14, 2008 at 11:28 am

1371. Comment #160614 by Quetzalcoatl

*Has anyone noticed that we've been getting a lot of trolls on the site recently? I wonder what the cause is.*




It's this article; particularly the title. The truth contained in it is hurting them.

Other Comments by alan baylis

1415. Comment #160773 by Bonzai on April 14, 2008 at 11:33 am

epeeist

,.. enough about the philosophy of science to know that Intelligent Design isn't science (though you would want a professional philosopher like MPhil, Quine or Spinoza if you want more depth).


No you don't. "Professional" philosophers have a tendency to be tricked by their own words. You don't need to know the big words to make a sound argument. Kant said such and such, according to so and so doctrine blah blah are basically invoking authorities to cover the lack of argument,--though often done just as a way to show off, in that case they are unnecessary distractions.

Other Comments by Bonzai

1416. Comment #160775 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 11:36 am

 avatarComment #160763 by al-rawandi

My father was a quite good fencer at University here in the US. I don't know if that is comparable to English fencing.
I am being generic here, so don't take it as trying to characterise your father. Fencing in the States used to be crap, but like a lot of other countries they have bought in East European coaches as the Soviet Union collapsed and their game has improved enormously, they are now winning gold medals at world level. This is especially true for women's sabre where a Russian called Nazlymov is in charge.

Britain is gradually improving, largely as the impact of Hungarian and Polish coaches gradually works through. One of the guys I coach with is a Hungarian who had 4th and 5th places in the Olympics, he recently had one of his pupils take bronze at the world under-17 championships.

To switch back to topic (boring I know), do you thing Laphroaigman will come back? If so do you want to hazard a guess as to how he wants to broaden our horizons?

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1417. Comment #160816 by navyjake95 on April 14, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Dude...just read your article, and I must say - you're clearly "unnerved" about something. It's been my experience (for 50 years), that people who behave like you did (in your article), do so because they're deeply afraid of Jesus.

I'll pray for you - In spite of hatred and name-calling. God loves you dude!

Other Comments by navyjake95

1418. Comment #160821 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 12:36 pm

 avatarComment #160816 by navyjake95

Dude...just read your article, and I must say - you're clearly "unnerved" about something. It's been my experience (for 50 years), that people who behave like you did (in your article), do so because they're deeply afraid of Jesus.
Why should Dude be afraid of a possibly non-existent preacher from an iron age Semitic tribe?

I'll pray for you - In spite of hatred and name-calling. God loves you dude!
To quote another poster from this site - "Well, I'll think of you the next time I am having a shit, the effect will be the same"

Does anyone here know of a poster called "Dude"?

Other Comments by epeeist

1419. Comment #160822 by BillySands on April 14, 2008 at 12:37 pm

 avatar
It sounds like Dawkins is about to believe in God. He's so angry and defensive.


WTF??? That is like saying that people who are angry about paedophiles are about to become paedophiles.

Thare are a lot of sneering creationists here say evolution does not happen, but none of them have provided any evidence. Why is that creationists?

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1420. Comment #160825 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 12:41 pm

 avatarepeeist,





To tell you the truth, I figured US fencing was crap in the 1960's. Sort of the way soccer was.

The guy will come back, once all the important issues have been forgotten, then we will be at square one again. I doubt he will be broadening anything save my definition of annoying.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1421. Comment #160832 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 12:54 pm

 avatarComment #160821 by epeeist
Does anyone here know of a poster called "Dude"?


That must be me. My husband regularly visits the states and calls me that for some time after he returns.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

1422. Comment #160852 by alan baylis on April 14, 2008 at 1:30 pm

As a layman who has a passion for natural history and a deep curiosity about how things came to be the way they are, I have been drawn to this site.

Observing the debate on this thread I have been amazed by the lack of knowledge displayed by many of the theists that are commenting here.

For goodness sake! Read more! In this age there is more access to information, knowledge and education than our forebears could ever have dreamed of!

The bible is NOT a biology book. Or even a very good treatise on ethics, from what I can tell.

Regards,
Alan.

Other Comments by alan baylis

1423. Comment #160862 by Vaal on April 14, 2008 at 1:44 pm

 avatarSo Steve, did your partner start calling you "Cobber" when he came back from Oz? :-)

Suspect I may be dude as I have been a bit cross at some of the inanity today, must be a Monday thing.

Other Comments by Vaal

1424. Comment #160882 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 2:09 pm

 avatarComment #160825 by al-rawandi

The guy will come back, once all the important issues have been forgotten, then we will be at square one again. I doubt he will be broadening anything save my definition of annoying.
Personally I take my mother's attitude. To paraphrase her, everyone brings joy to the site, some when they arrive, some when they leave.

Other Comments by epeeist

1425. Comment #160886 by Steve Zara on April 14, 2008 at 2:15 pm

 avatarComment #160862 by Vaal
So Steve, did your partner start calling you "Cobber" when he came back from Oz? :-)


Not in front of me, fortunately.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

1426. Comment #160904 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 2:32 pm

It's been my experience (for 50 years), that people who behave like you did (in your article), do so because they're deeply afraid of Jesus.

But...
God loves you dude!

So why should we be afraid, Jesus being God as well as his son and all?
Does this also cover other religions?
50 wasted years - sad.

Other Comments by Goldy

1427. Comment #160915 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 2:40 pm

I was basically good without God for over thirty years.

I am now basically good with God.

I don't know any serious person (Christian or otherwise) that would assert that one cannot be good without God.

Kardy, you were you without God (or at least, his voice in your head). You are you with God (at least, etc, etc).
What changed in between? A voice in your head. The god you describe could, in the wrong (or right) circumstances get you killed if others think you a blasphemer.
You haven't told me if you take all your knowledge of Jesus from the gospels...given that paul might have spun them a bit and all...

As for all the religious people coming here saying you pray for people like me - do something a bit more useful. Give to your communities actively. Travel a bit. Help the needy. Get off your smug arses (or knees) and stop telling me you're praying for me. I don't need it. If I do need it, I'm sure I'll be more grateful for something a bit more here and now and constructive. Save your money, don't over extend your credit, drive less, eat less, exercise more, cycle when you think you want to drive.
Just stop wasting time in prayer.

Other Comments by Goldy

1428. Comment #160947 by Quine on April 14, 2008 at 3:12 pm

 avatarComment #160773 by Bonzai

epeeist

,.. enough about the philosophy of science to know that Intelligent Design isn't science (though you would want a professional philosopher like MPhil, Quine or Spinoza if you want more depth).



No you don't. "Professional" philosophers have a tendency to be tricked by their own words. You don't need to know the big words to make a sound argument. Kant said such and such, according to so and so doctrine blah blah are basically invoking authorities to cover the lack of argument,--though often done just as a way to show off, in that case they are unnecessary distractions.



Bonzai did something bad happen to you as a child at the hands of a philosopher, perhaps a Jesuit? Generalizing from Kant to modern philosophers is just silly. There is a simple book by professional philosophers, The Web of Belief by W.V. Quine and J. S. Ullian, that I recommend to you and all here, re the subject of ID trying to be science. It is an introductory book from 1970 with no big words chasing other big words, but it cuts right to the heart of the problem (though written about other junk science long before) as you can see from this excerpt taken from the introduction:


Often such doctrines are accompanied by defiant attacks on the scientific establishment. Science is said to be in the hands of vested interests. Now there have indeed been vested interests that have blocked progress; so such attacks can strike a responsive cord. But there seems to be no end to how far such accusations can go. Not long ago there was a pamphlet available that "proved" π to be expressible as a fraction. The scientific aristocracy, so it claimed, had had its purposes in suppressing this result. But now, for a small price, the truth was out.

When it is a mathematical truth that is assailed there is likely to be a definitive way of settling the issue; so, happily, it is with π. For many doctrines, though, there is this protective argument: you (pointing to the follower of the scientific establishment) can't disprove it! And to be sure, many of these theories that lie on or beyond the fringe of believability cannot be definitively shown to be wrong. Indeed many of them are cast in terms that are so cloudy that it is hard to know what would count as a refutation of them; for they are not intelligible in the first place. And here the naivete of the believer may blend with his instinct for giant-killing. He thinks that the fact that his belief can't be knocked all the way over is additional ground for embracing it; and he may rejoice in finding that all the mighty scientists can't put him down. A victory, of sorts, over those in power.


Other Comments by Quine

1429. Comment #160964 by Jon_Sociologist on April 14, 2008 at 3:39 pm

 avatar
Comment #159761 by phil rimmer:
Jon

Intentions- Admirable.
Methods- Weird.

Negotiators don't shoot at (well intentioned) vigilantes when they've gone a little gun crazy.

I am not a negotiator. I'm curious what your take is on the actions of Hugh Thompson Jr. during the My Lai Massacre? Thompson ordered his gunners to fire on U.S. soldiers if they continued to murder innocent Vietnamese civilians.

In our case the bullets have been replaced with words, making the cowardice of anyone unwilling to stand up to Styrer- that much more pathetic. And while the victims in this case will not be murdered, the viciousness of those willing to stand by and allow these attacks to continue differs only in degree. My Lai still damages the reputation of the U.S. and labelling every non-Atheist a 'fuckwit faith-head' damages our reputation. But there is an important difference, U.S. power is not largely based upon reputation, our war is a war of words, and reputation plays a far greater role.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

1430. Comment #161047 by MaxD on April 14, 2008 at 5:29 pm

 avatarEpeeist,
Listening, well reading actually, your post about the long problem of US fencing reminded me of US soccer and US Judo (At least for mens divisions. Womens divisions in both sports have a prouder history). A sad state of affairs on both counts!

I think part of the reason for this is that two sports dominate here in the states and they occupy all the major talent. Anyway, a comment unrelated to this thread but related to the minor sports chatter.

Also did David Robertson or Artful ever offer a satisfactory answer to the metaphor questions?

Other Comments by MaxD

1431. Comment #161071 by alovrin on April 14, 2008 at 6:18 pm

 avatar
demonstrates the ability to speak in complete sentences and not act like a total asshole.


So why are you here shovit? You say you were an atheist for 30 yrs and now you perambulate with jesus. So you are old, could you impending demise have affected you decision?

Now this I used to be an atheist but line, is very suspicious. Sure you are can change your mind, its just that it has been used before eg Alastair McGrath, to much better effect.

I am being to suspect that you are looking for reassurance to prop up your about face. And when you ludicrous comments about hearing an inner voice(the voice of a deity so you say) and get ridiculed, the sense of persecution you feel, is for you positive reinforcement.
As you seem incapable of honest introspection and rely on reactions to your idiocy to be your guide, so be it.

Again why are you here?

Or have you cut and run, I know its hard to hear your inner voice in a noisy room.

Other Comments by alovrin

1432. Comment #161116 by secondsoprano on April 14, 2008 at 8:35 pm


So Steve, did your partner start calling you "Cobber" when he came back from Oz? :-)


Not in front of me, fortunately.



"Cobber?". Mate, the word you're searching for is "mate". The last recorded use of the word "cobber", apart from tourists, was early last century.

Other Comments by secondsoprano

1433. Comment #161118 by secondsoprano on April 14, 2008 at 8:44 pm

Comment #160816 by navyjake95 on April 14, 2008 at 12:27 pm



It's been my experience (for 50 years), that people who behave like you did (in your article), do so because they're deeply afraid of Jesus.


What a peculiar thing to say. Can you give us some examples? How can an athiest possibly be afraid of something which they don't believe exists?

Other Comments by secondsoprano

1434. Comment #161142 by epeeist on April 14, 2008 at 11:29 pm

 avatarComment #161047 by MaxD

I think part of the reason for this is that two sports dominate here in the states and they occupy all the major talent
We have the same thing here, with football (soccer) swamping virtually everything else.

But this is not dissimilar to having large supermarkets and brand name stores dominating and homogenising all our towns and a small number of parties dominating both national and local government.
Also did David Robertson or Artful ever offer a satisfactory answer to the metaphor questions?
You need to ask?

Other Comments by epeeist

1435. Comment #161192 by Galactor on April 15, 2008 at 2:42 am

 avatarComment #160604 by Pintoman
I should say, Dawkins does believe in God, he just calls God "evolution." Evolution belongs in the same category as God. He can't prove evolution and he can't hand me evolution. Evolution does not exist in the material world. It exists only in Dawkins mind. If you would all quit believing in evolution it would cease to exist.

Apart from the last sentence, this is just uninformed, uneducated tripe. You may find it unpleasant to be the subject of derision but this is what you deserve when you make these kinds of assertions. You are a know-nothing. There is nothing wrong with that until you start asserting your ignorance as being worthy of discussion and meriting serious responses.

If you are interested in debate and discussion or making an impact on the beliefs of those who frequent this site, start asking questions or providing substance to your assertions. Stating something like
Evolution does not exist in the material world
is laughable. It shows you up as a backward ignoramus.

Your last sentence: "if we stop believing in something then it ceases to exist". How do you evaluate your own statement in light of the following observations?

Not having belief or knowledge in something does not affect to the slightest degree the fact that this something may or may not be true.

If we stop believing in gravity then gravity will no longer exist.

Sometime in the future, someone will discover a new fact about the way nature works. That we do not know, yet, what this fact is, does not mean to say that it does not exist.


Do you feel that what you have said is credible?

Other Comments by Galactor

1436. Comment #161270 by Styrer- on April 15, 2008 at 4:52 am

Comment #160677 by al-rawandi on April 14, 2008 at 9:16 am

Styrer,





David Robertson has still refused to answer my question regarding the FCOS creed which states "pre-ordained damnation" as an article of faith.

I admire your persistence, but the man is slimey.


Al-rawandi

Still no sign of an answer for either of us, then, I note.

He does seem to have a tendency to cut and run at moments when avoiding answer by way of continued inanity becomes rather too conspicuous even for him.

He may simply have his hands full in justifying the unjustifiable on the PZ thread here; or in doing his best to make a convert to his cause of poor old Richard Morgan, who is still receiving all his love and affection on the FCOS site. I'll check this thread out from time to time, but a proper response for either of us is looking increasingly unlikely.

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

1437. Comment #161272 by Bonzai on April 15, 2008 at 5:02 am

Quine

did something bad happen to you as a child at the hands of a philosopher, perhaps a Jesuit?


No, just that my ex is a philosopher.. I am kidding. I just can't stand pretentious verbosity.

Thanks for the book recommendation though I think a good book is a good book, not because it was written by philosophers. As you said it yourself, there is no big word and verbal diarrheas, that means it doesn't require any skill unique to the philosopher so it could have been written by an intelligent non philosopher. BTW, I do think philosophers are generally smart people.

Other Comments by Bonzai

1438. Comment #161282 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 5:41 am

Alovrin, if ignorance is bliss then your life must be like a non-stop orgasm.

Why are you so fascinated with me?

If you are really interested in what motivates me to post here, you could simply read what I have written on that subject instead of flogging your errant speculation.

Your bitterness betrays a deep inner pain. Perhaps you just need a good cry, my friend. Let it all out and I'm sure you'll feel better.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1439. Comment #161287 by Steve Zara on April 15, 2008 at 5:51 am

 avatar
Why are you so fascinated with me?


I am fascinated by anyone who claims to have heard the voice of God, or who claims to have a dialog with him.

Can I ask how you don't know that the voice or dialog isn't with telepathic aliens? I am not kidding - that is a far simpler explanation than a Supreme Being.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

1440. Comment #161299 by mmurray on April 15, 2008 at 6:23 am

 avatar
Dr. Dawkins asserts that Evolution has been definitively proven, yet many prominent Evolutionists disagree on key points, or do not yet have tenable answers for fundamental questions.

Which key points and which fundamental questions ?


Intelligent design proponents suggest they can bring scientifically supportable theories to the table that address these questions.


What scientifically supportable theories? All they do is look for gaps they can stuff God into. For thousands of years people have been saying `I don't understand how this happened God must have done it' but every time someone has been able to explain it. Asserting the god of the gaps every time you cannot understand something is an exercise in futility. It would not be so bad if IDers were genuine but all the evidence suggests they are just doing this as a front to push religion in schools. They are not brave original thinkers challenging the dominant paradigm.


When we refuse to allow credentialed scientists at the table because we believe in a flat earth, we risk becoming scientific dinosaurs because the facts will eventually come out, and we will be left behind.


Were the scientific dinosaurs vegetarian until The Fall like T-Rex ?

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

1441. Comment #161300 by Bonzai on April 15, 2008 at 6:23 am

if ignorance is bliss then your life must be like a non-stop orgasm.


I have to say that is really good!

Other Comments by Bonzai

1442. Comment #161305 by hungarianelephant on April 15, 2008 at 6:28 am

 avatarKardshovel - I know you're swamped, but if you have time to answer my question in 160178 (link below) I'd be very interested to read what you have to say.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins,page29#160678

& I'll be storing the "ignorance is bliss" retort for future use, thank you.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

1443. Comment #161308 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 6:33 am

Can I ask how you don't know that the voice or dialog isn't with telepathic aliens?


Steve, that thought occurred to me too, but I ruled it out as illogical based on the content of the conversation, and the nature of the beast.

In terms of the technology necessary to do what I experienced, and perhaps also in terms of the depth, clarity, and light-speed processing involved, the alien concept might work (I don't know).

But here's the thing... why would an alien species care about the mundane details of my business? Especially in how it intersects the business of many others that they probably don't speak to... If they need me for some other task, then perhaps they could show an interest in me and my dealings; but this conversation followed my interests too, and there was no question that did not have an immediate answer.

Now having said all of that, I'm sure you'll remember that I think that God is actually a time-traveling descendant of ours, from the distant future, probably residing somewhere other than Earth for that matter. So, I suppose that the alien explanation technically qualifies too. But this alien is very cognizant of what happens here on Earth, in our time... almost like His life depends on it.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1444. Comment #161311 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 6:37 am

 avatarKardashovel - What does your psychiatrist think of your ideas?

Other Comments by irate_atheist

1445. Comment #161312 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 6:43 am

So what you're basically espousing is almost a traditional liberal (in its original meaning) secular position.

I consider myself a paleoliberal, and certainly a supporter of secular government. In modern American terminology, I can best be described as a leftist-libertarian.



Presumably, based on your earlier posts, you think there is a difference between someone who takes a position because of deeply felt conscience, and someone who does something just because he feels like it. Assuming you can properly distinguish between the two [sidenote - Tony Blair?], and assuming that there is a conflict with someone else, do you think the conscience-position should carry any particular weight? If so, why and if not, why not?


How could we avoid letting our emotions and deeply held convictions inform our arguments and decisions?

Now if there is a conflict, these types of convictions don't hold much sway with me nor should mine with you. Ultimately the resolution needs to be worked out according to discourse governed by secular law, underwritten by a constitution. Unfortunately this is not what happens anywhere in the world that I have traveled to (four continents and counting)...

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1446. Comment #161313 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 6:44 am

What does your psychiatrist think of your ideas?


I assume you mean my psychologist... shall I get his head out of my deep-freezer and ask it?

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1447. Comment #161314 by al-rawandi on April 15, 2008 at 6:46 am

 avatarKarda,





That is odd. I am also a "progressive libertarian".

It is a wonderful position to have where people on the left (just look through the responses to some of my old posts) call you a right wing whacko, and people on the right call you a communist. It is fun having no friends.


I don't see why the government can't provide basic services, and otherwise, leave people the hell alone. What is so difficult about that? Give people free medical care and leave their guns, taxes, gay marriages, and beliefs alone. It's not that hard.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1448. Comment #161315 by Quetzalcoatl on April 15, 2008 at 6:48 am

 avatarKardashovel-

but this conversation followed my interests too, and there was no question that did not have an immediate answer


Closely followed your interests, eh? Wow, it's almost as if this voice was an aspect of your own psyche. Crazy.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1449. Comment #161317 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 6:51 am

Quetzalcoatl, the answers about those people and situations were definitely not part of my psyche. Nor were the issues that He wanted to discuss.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1450. Comment #161319 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 6:52 am

 avatar1454. Comment #161313 by Kardashovel -

I was talking about the person that helps you deal with the voice(s) in your head. Be careful.

Edit: 1457. Comment #161317 by Kardashovel -
Quetzalcoatl, the answers about those people and situations were definitely not part of my psyche.
I don't believe you're professionally qualified or unbiased enough to make that statement. Take care - it's not real.

Other Comments by irate_atheist
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