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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 1501 - 1550 of 9332 |

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1501. Comment #161395 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 8:43 am

Quetzalcoatl, the entire discussion about me hearing voices was sparked when the lovely and incisive annabanana was asking me about what led me to become a theist.

I answered honestly. Since that time it has occupied the majority of the bandwidth devoted to questioning and ridiculing me.

If I asserted that you should believe in God because I heard voices, then I could understand your comment. But as it is, you just sound like someone that thinks every conversation should revolve around your wishes. Good luck with that.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1502. Comment #161396 by Quetzalcoatl on April 15, 2008 at 8:46 am

 avatarKardashovel-

But as it is, you just sound like someone that thinks every conversation should revolve around your wishes. Good luck with that


In fact I think that everything should revolve around my wishes. The rest of the world, sadly, does not agree. :-)

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1503. Comment #161397 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 8:46 am

Where is annabanana, by the way? It would be wonderful to hear from her again.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1504. Comment #161398 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 8:48 am

 avatar1505. Comment #161396 by Quetzalcoatl -

I don't agree. That's why I drink Bovril. PBUY.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

1505. Comment #161401 by al-rawandi on April 15, 2008 at 8:51 am

 avatarKardashovel,





Allow me to say, that Anna thinks you are a little whacky as well.

I don't really mind you. You have always been nice, and I rather like following these discussions.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1506. Comment #161403 by Frankus1122 on April 15, 2008 at 8:56 am

 avatar

Frankus thinks I'm trying to start the next Scientology and trolling for converts.


No. I was just making a comparison between the fantasy of Hubbard and yours.
I don't mean to demean but because you will not share what exactly the voice said to you that you could not have otherwise known we have no reason to believe that your voice was anything other than you. The reason I believe this are for reasons that Tyler stated in an earlier post.

Is it possible that the reasons for your voice are the ones we suggested? I know you are committed to believing that it was actually God that spoke to you but can you admit the possiblity that you are wrong?

Other Comments by Frankus1122

1507. Comment #161405 by Frankus1122 on April 15, 2008 at 8:59 am

 avatarFrom strength:


Atheists and darwinists are whinning like a bunch of little hoes because a good quality film has been released which exposes their baseless hatred and arrogance. All of you atheists are just bitter, angry, narrow minded @ss holes



Thank you for your post.
I am convinced.
Where do I sign up for the ID?

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1508. Comment #161406 by navyjake95 on April 15, 2008 at 9:01 am

Dear "epeeist",

Woweeeeee! Your heart is filled w/bitterness and anger. Your own "intelligence" has allowed your pride to run your life. Is that your version of evolution?

As a "new-man", baptized in the name of Jesus, I learned to "let-go" of the bitterness in my own heart. Calling me names, or letting filth leave your mouth doesn't prove much, does it?

Like it or not, you were created by God, and he has a plan for your life. Everyone is learning from your example, just not in the way you and your pride envisioned...and for a "non-existent preacher from an iron age Semitic tribe" - he sure has changed the world hasn't he?

He changed my heart - and if you're not careful, he'll change yours too!!!!

Love Brother!

Other Comments by navyjake95

1509. Comment #161407 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 9:10 am

 avatar1511. Comment #161406 by navyjake95 -

Like it or not, you were created by God, and he has a plan for your life.
30,000 children a day (source: UNICEF) die from malnutrition or preventable diseases. Your God clearly has a plan for them, too.
He changed my heart - and if you're not careful, he'll change yours too!!!!
So, he's some kind of manic transplant surgeon, is he? Sounds like a 'nice' bloke to me.

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1510. Comment #161408 by epeeist on April 15, 2008 at 9:11 am

 avatarComment #161406 by navyjake95

Woweeeeee! Your heart is filled w/bitterness and anger. Your own "intelligence" has allowed your pride to run your life. Is that your version of evolution?
You don't know me, you have never met me, I make one comment about you and you take it on board to make completely incorrect and grossly insulting conclusions about me.

Like it or not, you were created by God, and he has a plan for your life.
I hope not, otherwise he is going to be in severe trouble with my wife. She takes it very badly when someone else makes plans for me.
He changed my heart - and if you're not careful, he'll change yours too!!!!

Where's irate when you need him, looks as though I will have to do it myself.

Fucktard.

Other Comments by epeeist

1511. Comment #161409 by Kardashovel on April 15, 2008 at 9:12 am

I don't mean to demean but because you will not share what exactly the voice said to you that you could not have otherwise known we have no reason to believe that your voice was anything other than you. The reason I believe this are for reasons that Tyler stated in an earlier post.


I stopped reading what he writes.

Could I be wrong? There is a non-zero possibility. But the only other explanation that makes any sense is that this voice was generate by my own mind.

I am simply not as quick, informed, and capable of future predictions as the voice was.

Frankus, I've got mixed feelings about talking with you. You seem to look at me the way my cats regard a mouse they've caught. You are not rude, but you are somewhat disrespectful, and you always insist on bringing the conversation back to your favorite game: Prove that there is a God.

Earlier in this thread I proposed a topic of discussion that we might cut our claws on. I am surprised that it has never been discussed here. Unfortunately I don't know too much about it, so I'll need to research more to be sure it's worth it. Perhaps it is too trivial to discuss. But Sam Harris mentioned it, so I'd wager it could put some gas in the tank.

Maybe I'll catch you on the flip side, but right now you're just too toothy.

Other Comments by Kardashovel

1512. Comment #161410 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 9:13 am

 avatar1513. Comment #161408 by epeeist -
Where's irate when you need him...
Composing a sarcastic post, of course. What else would you expect.

I'll see your fucktard and raise you one ass-clown and a nob-jockey.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

1513. Comment #161411 by strength on April 15, 2008 at 9:17 am

"Non existent preacher from an iron age "semetic tribe". LOL..... As a Jew, I must say that bigotted @ssholes like you are bred by Darwinism....as your hero Hitler showed. As for Yeshua or Jesus as he is called in English, the fact that this Jewish Rabbi existed is not even questioned amongst serious students of history. He is as much a historical figure as King David, who has archeological and extra Biblical writings attesting to his place in history and only fringe far left figures question his existance. Even the TALMUD points to his existance, though the rabbis disagreed with him. You are all so biased and arrogant it is sickening. I am Jewish and not Christian, but I stand by all people of faith when thye are attacked by Darwinist Nazis like you all. I would love to, on behalf of my dead Jewish holocaust victim ancestors, punch all of you in the face! BTW, Happy Pesach!

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1514. Comment #161412 by Tyler Durden on April 15, 2008 at 9:18 am

 avatarComment #161409 by Kardashovel:
But the only other explanation that makes any sense is that this voice was generate by my own mind.


By jove, I think he's got it :)

Oh, but then Kardashovel doesn't read my posts.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

1515. Comment #161413 by black wolf on April 15, 2008 at 9:19 am

 avatarApparently someone opened a moron-mine and they come flooding out as if this were their afterlife.
Anybody have a useful suggestion what to do with them? Perhaps collecting the drivel, freezing it and making a few nice skiing slopes?

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1516. Comment #161416 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 9:21 am

 avatar1516. Comment #161411 by strength -

If you are so convinced by and of Jesus, why are you a Jew?

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1517. Comment #161418 by strength on April 15, 2008 at 9:24 am

These Darwinist @ss holes are the ultimate example of European arrogance. They have, throughout history, claimed to be superior to all "savage" peoples and now the savages are people of faith. They only deny G-d's existance so that they can indulge in their filthy beahviour with sheep and other farm friends. They want to indulge with a clear conscience and G-d just rains on their filthy parade. Honestly...deep in their hearts, they do not deny G-d's existance...they only wish to BE G-d. But guess what @ss hole....you will never be G-d. BTW, tell "Clinton" Dawkins we say HAPPY PESACH!

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1518. Comment #161419 by al-rawandi on April 15, 2008 at 9:25 am

 avatarirate,




He is like that filthy attorney Sukelow, a Jew for Jesus. Arguing the Evangelical agenda in front of the supreme court.

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1519. Comment #161421 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 9:28 am

 avatar1521. Comment #161419 by al-rawandi -

I disagree. He's just applying for the award of 'fucktard of the day', and not doing a bad job of it, either.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

1520. Comment #161422 by Peacebeuponme on April 15, 2008 at 9:28 am

All this talk of voices in the head. Did they come from an external entity? Does it indicate schizophrenia?

To me it just seems like an odd way for God to go about getting things done. Kardashovel seems confused as to exactly what he is supposed to do with these messages. "Walk with me" is not that clear an intruction. Why only two messages in all this time? Why via the head, which means the integrity of the message is at the mercy of our extremely fallible memory. Why not just leave you an answerphone message?

Whenever god reveals himself it seems to be in an unessesarily contrived or trival way.

Curious.

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1521. Comment #161423 by Quetzalcoatl on April 15, 2008 at 9:28 am

 avatar
European arrogance


So "Strength" is most likely American.

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1522. Comment #161424 by hungarianelephant on April 15, 2008 at 9:29 am

 avatarKardshovel - Thanks for your answers. You make a nice change from some of the theists we get around here - I see there are a few loonies here today.

I also had an experience with a distinct inner voice. It was clear, it knew all about my life, and told me in about 20 words how to get out of the bad patch I was going through.

Funny thing is, I was utterly convinced that the voice was not external. Far from feeling like the love of God, I knew (note the choice of word) that this was something which had been within me all the time - perhaps some primal survival instinct that found a way through to my conscious brain when it most needed to.

As surely as it came, it left again. That was quite distressing for a while. I had to make all my own decisions again without the help of the inner voice.

What I'm interested in is why you concluded that it was external. Mother Theresa came to the same conclusion about her inner voices. Their absence for the next 40 years tortured her. Do you still hear them, and why do you think it is the Holy Spirit?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

1523. Comment #161425 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 9:30 am

 avatar1524. Comment #161423 by Quetzalcoatl -

And I bet he's fundamentally opposed to Tea. PBUY.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

1524. Comment #161427 by Frankus1122 on April 15, 2008 at 9:32 am

 avatarkardashovel,
I skimmed through your posts on this thread to figure out what you were trying to talk about. Was this the topic?:

Has the topic of Dr. Ian Stevenson's research into reincarnation ever been discussed in this forum?


If so, it has certainly strayed.
I am trying not to be rude. Disrespectful? I just can't understand how a seemingly intelligent person can believe what you do. I don't think that is being disrespectful.
I am trying to step inside your head to try to understand what you believe. I think I get it intellectually but I don't believe it.
That is why I bring up the Scientology analogy. It makes sense from within the confines of its worldview. But if you step outside and compare the beliefs to the rest of what you know/believe to be true about the world you realize that it doesn't match up. There are contradictions.
In some ways it is a simple 'if this is true, then this cannot be true' type argument.

Sorry, I may have to pull a number 10. Lunch hour is over.

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1525. Comment #161428 by black wolf on April 15, 2008 at 9:34 am

 avatarI wonder if 'strength' has children. If so, how does he prevent them from becoming godless Darwinist nazis? Does he beat them into submission and send them to indoctrination camp, or is making them believe they were sheep enough?

Other Comments by black wolf

1526. Comment #161433 by MaxD on April 15, 2008 at 9:40 am

 avatarOf Strength's strengths, logic cannot be counted high among them.
No, no.
Hold on I am getting rained on by G-d droppings. Whatever they are.

Other Comments by MaxD

1527. Comment #161435 by Frankus1122 on April 15, 2008 at 9:41 am

 avatarStrength,
It is unfortunate that you do not know the love of Jesus.
You have a lot of hate there.
Maybe the Buddhist way should be explored by you.
May the love of our common humanity be with you all the days of your life.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

1528. Comment #161436 by Philip1978 on April 15, 2008 at 9:41 am

 avatarstrength

I am impressed by your anger, God, or G-d, would be proud of you for swearing and ranting at us like that, what happened to being nice to everyone? ( G-d??? What is that by the way, are you so scared of your god that you can't even type his name?)

Please, do NOT compare anyone who does not believe in the same god that you do with Hitler, apologise at once. I think its highly insulting and I would not advise you go any further which such ludicrous suggestions.

If you want to chat properly, I am sure someone will chat but sod off if you are going to make trouble, you obviously dont understand what non belief is about and you certainly have a strange and highly wrong view of evolution, should you want it explained to you, I am sure we can help you out with it, there are enough experts on this site to do that.

Your choice, you get trolled, or you get a decent conversation!

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

1529. Comment #161437 by epeeist on April 15, 2008 at 9:42 am

 avatarComment #161433 by MaxD

Hold on I am getting rained on by G-d droppings. Whatever they are.
Not much different from stepping in D_g droppings.

Other Comments by epeeist

1530. Comment #161438 by Diacanu on April 15, 2008 at 9:46 am

 avatarstrength-

Hello, Ben Stein, welcome to the site.

Liked you in Duckman.

In "Expelled", and the Nixon administration, not so much.

Other Comments by Diacanu

1531. Comment #161440 by MaxD on April 15, 2008 at 9:50 am

 avatarKardashovel,
The reincarnation thing has not really played out successfully the last time I looked at it a few years ago. For a few years I dabbled in the New Agey business, mostly during high school, and for a about a year afterwards. So I had an interest.

I think Sam Harris has backed off the idea he posed in End of Faith somewhat. I can only suppose his experience of people like Michael Shermer, and others helped him find more info on the topic of reincarnation. I'm not saying it is a played out hyposthesis (like say creationism) but it has all its work still ahead of it as Hitch likes to say.

Other Comments by MaxD

1532. Comment #161443 by Quine on April 15, 2008 at 9:53 am

 avatar
( G-d??? What is that by the way, are you so scared of your god that you can't even type his name?)


Yes, there are Jewish law restrictions about this. I friend of mine was a systems programmer who had an obnoxious user who abused a system command string to take over other people's terminals. The user was orthodox Jewish and so changing the string to "GOD" stopped him for a while. The guy then went back to his old ways by setting his own terminal to "no echo" before typing the "GOD" on the theory that the LAW only applied if he could see "GOD" actually spelled out.

Other Comments by Quine

1533. Comment #161445 by al-rawandi on April 15, 2008 at 9:54 am

 avatarQuine,




You are right about Jewish law.


It is also forbidden to have uncircumcised sex with a shell fish. Bet you didn't know that about Halacha.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1534. Comment #161446 by al-rawandi on April 15, 2008 at 9:55 am

 avatarDiacanu,




"Bueller, Bueller..... Bueller."

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1535. Comment #161454 by MaxD on April 15, 2008 at 10:03 am

 avatarPhillip1978,
If you think Strength is angry,
see this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pXakslVYAh0&feature=related
This guy is off the fucking chains!

Other Comments by MaxD

1536. Comment #161460 by Frankus1122 on April 15, 2008 at 10:10 am

 avatarQuine

Yes, there are Jewish law restrictions about this.


Whenever you are not allowed by God or G-d or your holy book to do certain things that would otherwise be okay you have a problem.
Although it is sort of a silly reason, having to wear certain headgear or clothing because it is part of your religion, got me turned off the whole notion of religion.
Why would God care what I wear?
Of course moderates would not say that you have to wear certain articles of clothing to get in His good books but there are many people who believe this. I had a neighbour whose son could not believe that my daughter was a girl because she wore pants.
Once you start down the road of believing things that are contrary to the rest of the world as you know it, then almost anything can be accepted.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

1537. Comment #161464 by Diacanu on April 15, 2008 at 10:19 am

 avatarRule of thumb, if it doesn't fall under the category of causing someone harm, and is still a "sin", then it's bullshit superstitious mind control, and nothing more.

How does typing "GOD", cause anyone harm?
I mean real broken arm harm, not "step on a crack..", bullshit.

I put this to some wingnuts on D'souza's blog, and they all ran away from it.
They didn't even bother making "gotta take back video tapes", excuses.

Well, it wasn't about the "GOD", thing, but the superstitious bullshit sins in general.

Other Comments by Diacanu

1538. Comment #161474 by navyjake95 on April 15, 2008 at 10:31 am

Mr. epeeist,

Like it or not, I'll pray for you. The weakness in your Heart is made evident by the words you choose. Do you express hateful things to everyone? Or do your reserve that for those who stand up to you?

You are obviously one to be confronted. Step out of the darkness, and let the light shine on you.
Better to choose the light now, before it's too late.

Other Comments by navyjake95

1539. Comment #161475 by MaxD on April 15, 2008 at 10:31 am

 avatarKarda said:
I have observed that many atheists think that every conversation about the supernatural should involve a proffer of evidence.


This comes from the fact that when people make extrodinary claims, it is alway good to ask for the evidence of why they believe what they believe. I mean if I came in here and said, this afternoon I discovered perpetual motion, and my pet S.E.T.I. project found alien television shows that resembled Rosanne, but with tentacles, everyone would say....uh...where is your evidence and could you link me to your paper and what journal was that in again?

You are making a strong claim about God, and also suggesting that he needs us. I think a certain amount of evidence request is a good habit to get into.

Other Comments by MaxD

1540. Comment #161477 by strength on April 15, 2008 at 10:35 am

Why are you darwinists SO annoyed at how I spell G-d? Why in the world would you care HOW I spell the name of a fictitious deity? Your lack of tolerance at jewish practice and law just shows how fundamental and extreme you are in your religious views. As for head coverings....the Torah NOWHERE commands jews to wear a kipa-this is simply a tradition of my people. Is that OK with you Darwinists? Are we allowed to spell the divine name how we wish and wear what we want on our heads? Hey Max....are you good with those gloves? If you blaspheme the Name of the G-d of my people, that has sustained us through slaughter, progroms and holocausts to my face you had better "pray" you are good with those gloves! Who in the hell do you zealots think you are?

Other Comments by strength

1541. Comment #161478 by MaxD on April 15, 2008 at 10:36 am

 avatarNavyjake,
How is Epeeist's heart weak?

Other Comments by MaxD

1542. Comment #161484 by Diacanu on April 15, 2008 at 10:40 am

 avatarnavyjake-


You are obviously one to be confronted.


Oh, what, are you gonna book a plane ticket, and go kick his ass?

Or, are you and your prayer buddies gonna will a Carebear stare at him by hugging the monitor?

Other Comments by Diacanu

1543. Comment #161486 by strength on April 15, 2008 at 10:42 am

Let me clarify Max, you can be an internet atheist thug all you want, but if you want to talk about G-d droppings to my face, I will bust you in your shyte. Point blank.

Other Comments by strength

1544. Comment #161488 by Quetzalcoatl on April 15, 2008 at 10:45 am

 avatarStrength-

I'm sure MaxD is trembling with fear right now. Ha!

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

1545. Comment #161492 by strength on April 15, 2008 at 10:48 am

Quetzal. Shut the hell up-you're just mad at G-d because He made you ugly, with pimples and a small weewee. As for Max, disrespecting the G-d of the Jews is worse than disrespecting the Jews! Unlike ya'll, I am no internet thug. I served in the IDF and could handle Max with ease. Show some respect is all I'm saying

Other Comments by strength

1546. Comment #161493 by Diacanu on April 15, 2008 at 10:50 am

 avatarstrength-


Why in the world would you care HOW I spell the name of a fictitious deity?


It's an idiotic superstition, and I have every right to ridicule it.


Your lack of tolerance...


Oh, blow it out your ass.
When will you religiots lose the martyr routine?
No one's dragging you behind a truck, or hanging you from an oak tree.
And as for the implications of "bigotry", religion isn't like skin color or ethnicity, it's a conscious choice you make as an adult.
Either to convert, or to keep the superstitions of your parents into adulthood.
If we can't go after people's beliefs, then let's stop having political debates then.
Bye bye democracy.
Sorry, but religion did NOTHING to deserve the special protection it gets.
The free ride is over.
Deal with it.

Other Comments by Diacanu

1547. Comment #161496 by al-rawandi on April 15, 2008 at 10:52 am

 avatarstrength,




A Jew that says ya'll?


In the IDF, how many small children did you use as a human shield?

How many women did you force to give birth at checkpoints? Does this mean you have a big "weewee". Abusing children and women. You must be proud, a credit to the Jewish people.

All the while you Israelis allow the truly brave Jews (Shoah Survivors) live below the poverty line in Israel (almost 40%).

You could handle max with ease? I must inform you he isn't a 70 year old Palestinian women, so he might be out of your league. And since he is faster than an 8 year old, you won't be able to shoot him either.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

1548. Comment #161497 by Diacanu on April 15, 2008 at 10:53 am

 avatarstrength-


Let me clarify Max, you can be an internet atheist thug all you want, but if you want to talk about G-d droppings to my face, I will bust you in your shyte. Point blank.


Your God must be an incredible pussy if he needs twats like you to be his cadre of bodyguards.

Other Comments by Diacanu

1549. Comment #161498 by MaxD on April 15, 2008 at 10:53 am

 avatarStrength I will be at the Hoosier Open in June.
Look me up.

How exactly did God sustain you through all those pogroms? The holocaust?
Just curious.

Other Comments by MaxD

1550. Comment #161499 by navyjake95 on April 15, 2008 at 10:54 am

Well MaxD,

You show me a filthy mouth, and I'll show you a weak-heart. Show me someone who calls people names, and I'll show you someone you can't trust. Show me someone who doesn't like to look in the mirror, and I'll show you someone without honor.

Like it or not, character matters.

Other Comments by navyjake95
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