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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 2001 - 2050 of 9332 |

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2001. Comment #162454 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:16 am

Bravo, my fellow atheists! Let's all give ourselves a big pat on the back for our intellectual superiority over the masses of peons that share our meaningless existence, yet like to delude themselves into thinking life is about anything more than self-praise and the belittling of inferiors!

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2002. Comment #162459 by Quetzalcoatl on April 17, 2008 at 2:20 am

 avatarEgomaniac-

Bravo, my fellow poster! Give yourself a big pat on the back for making your first post such a wonderful and intellectually stimulating comment.

If you've got something to say that's worth discussing, say it. Otherwise, don't bother.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2003. Comment #162460 by irate_atheist on April 17, 2008 at 2:21 am

 avatar2004. Comment #162454 by Egomaniac -

My slave does my back-patting for me. Except on Tuesdays, when, as a token of my benifience, he has the afternoon off.

Edit: 2005. Comment #162459 by Quetzalcoatl -
If you've got something to say that's worth discussing, say it. Otherwise, don't bother.
Let's face it, that's never stopped me.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2004. Comment #162463 by epeeist on April 17, 2008 at 2:27 am

 avatarComment #162454 by Egomaniac

Bravo, my fellow atheists! Let's all give ourselves a big pat on the back for our intellectual superiority over the masses of peons that share our meaningless existence, yet like to delude themselves into thinking life is about anything more than self-praise and the belittling of inferiors!
You registered specifically to deliver this gem did you?

Ah well, at least you aren't trying to sell creationist DVDs.

Other Comments by epeeist

2005. Comment #162464 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:30 am

Quetzalcoatl -- I was unaware that commentary on the tone of many people here was beneath your involvement. I apologize, oh Great One.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2006. Comment #162466 by Goldy on April 17, 2008 at 2:31 am

Cheers, Egomaniac :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

2007. Comment #162468 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:33 am

Epeeist -- everybody has to start somewhere, don't they?

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2008. Comment #162469 by Philip1978 on April 17, 2008 at 2:33 am

 avatarEgomaniac

I see you have begun to praise Quetz, its a good sign!

Other Comments by Philip1978

2009. Comment #162470 by Styrer- on April 17, 2008 at 2:34 am

Comment #162464 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:30 am

Ooh, and another content-free post there, Ego.

Third time lucky?

[Edit: and the vacuity continues to the 3rd strike. But do have another go.]

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

2010. Comment #162471 by Quetzalcoatl on April 17, 2008 at 2:34 am

 avatarEgomaniac-

It's pretty obvious when you use phrases like "meaningless existence" and "self-praising and the belittling of inferiors" that you are not interested in genuine discussion.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2011. Comment #162472 by Steve Zara on April 17, 2008 at 2:39 am

 avatarComment #162468 by Egomaniac

Perhaps you could explain something that has been puzzling me for some time. Why does the supposed existence of a God who can do anything to us any time he likes, and who watches our every move and knows our every thought add meaning?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2012. Comment #162473 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:41 am

Quetzalcoatl --

You have a skewed interpretation of what is and is not obvious. It was mere hyperbole.

Do you think the notion that some people here seem to enjoy looking down on others is absurd?

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2013. Comment #162475 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:43 am

Styrer --

Physician, heal thyself.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2014. Comment #162476 by Styrer- on April 17, 2008 at 2:43 am

Comment #162472 by Steve Zara on April 17, 2008 at 2:39 am

By Jove, I think Steve found some substance in our lovely new member's post!

Good effort, maestro (sincerely!) :)

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

2015. Comment #162477 by Sargeist on April 17, 2008 at 2:44 am

 avatarSteve,

I'm not sure if it's really "meaning", but more a conflation of "reason" with "meaning". If some conscious being out there made a decision to bring us into existence then, even if we don't know why, or like it, then there is the possibility of there being a usual, human-like kind of "reason" for it.

I don't find it reassuring, but clearly a lot of people do.

Either that, or they are all just parrotting something they once heard in the hope that it'll deflect attention away from the fact that they've been brainwashed. Like when people end up using "not fit for purpose" or "institutionally " just because they can't be bothered to think for themselves.

Other Comments by Sargeist

2016. Comment #162479 by Styrer- on April 17, 2008 at 2:44 am

Comment #162475 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:43 am

Oh, so close, Ego.

Try again - this time, use your words to - here's a thought - SAY something!

Bonne chance,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

2017. Comment #162480 by epeeist on April 17, 2008 at 2:45 am

 avatarComment #162468 by Egomaniac
everybody has to start somewhere, don't they?
You know we had a poster the other day called Laphroaigman. He started off much like you, apparently he came here to broaden our horizons.

I offered him all sorts of topics to discuss, I was rather hoping he would take me up on the "International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea", but he disappeared without responding.

You wouldn't like to take up the challenge would you, how about the difference between vessels constrained by their draft and those restricted in their ability to manoeuvre as a starter?

Other Comments by epeeist

2018. Comment #162481 by Sargeist on April 17, 2008 at 2:48 am

 avatarWhile vaguely on the topic of god being able to do anything, have I blathered on here about one of my favourite criticisms of god and his miracles? Why are miracles so bloody banal? Not to mention rather inscrutable.

I mean, in what sense is a weeping statue actually representative of an all loving god? My girlfriend pointed out last night that things usually cry when you've been nasty to them. So surely a weeping Madonna is a bad sign? (not as bad as her recent Bond theme, though - argh!)

Anyway, about miracles: water into wine is simply liquid into another liquid. What about sand into wine? Shoes into wine? Roman centurions into wine? Or, radically, just make some bloody wine out of thin air!?

There is more of this nonsense in Islam, too. Mohammad makes an old she-goat produce milk when he and his followers were marching around in need of refreshment. A miracle! Hmm, female goats making milk - wow. How about: stones making milk? Combine harvesters making milk. Or, again, bloody bottles of ice cold milk, with little foil tops on!

Rargh!

[edit: damned typos!]

Other Comments by Sargeist

2019. Comment #162482 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:49 am

Steve Zara --

The notion of a continued existence after death, along with the idea that the manner in which one's life has been lived will influence the level of quality of said existence adds meaning to many people's lives.

The idea that people will be reunited with loved ones who have passed on adds great meaning to people's lives.

Neither of these seems possible without the existence of some higher power, does it?

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2020. Comment #162483 by Goldy on April 17, 2008 at 2:50 am

Do you think the notion that some people here seem to enjoy looking down on others is absurd?

Why?
Never mind - I'm sure it makes sense to you. I'm off to bed.
A domani!

Other Comments by Goldy

2021. Comment #162484 by BillySands on April 17, 2008 at 2:50 am

 avatarEgo

What is the correct way to say scone?

Other Comments by BillySands

2022. Comment #162485 by Diacanu on April 17, 2008 at 2:54 am

 avatarEgomaniac-


The notion of a continued existence after death, along with the idea that the manner in which one's life has been lived will influence the level of quality of said existence adds meaning to many people's lives.

The idea that people will be reunited with loved ones who have passed on adds great meaning to people's lives.


Lovely bits of wish thinking, but wishing doesn't make them so.

Other Comments by Diacanu

2023. Comment #162486 by Steve Zara on April 17, 2008 at 2:54 am

 avatarComment #162482 by Egomaniac

You seem to be confusing "hope" with "meaning".

Neither of these seems possible without the existence of some higher power, does it?


Why not?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2024. Comment #162487 by Quetzalcoatl on April 17, 2008 at 2:56 am

 avatarEgomaniac-

You have a skewed interpretation of what is and is not obvious. It was mere hyperbole


Why start your first post with such hyperbole? Do you consider atheists' existence to be meaningless?

Do you think the notion that some people here seem to enjoy looking down on others is absurd?


I would first have to ask for examples of this "looking-down" on others.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2025. Comment #162488 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 2:58 am

epeeist --

Can you please restate the challenge -- I'm not sure I understand your meaning.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2026. Comment #162489 by epeeist on April 17, 2008 at 2:59 am

 avatarComment #162487 by Quetzalcoatl
I would first have to ask for examples of this looking-down" on others.
I would also like to point him at the discussions with the likes of "thisisme" and Kardashovel.

A classic example of initiating with the intent of generating quarrel dialogue.

Other Comments by epeeist

2027. Comment #162490 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:01 am

Billy --

Are you trying to figure out where I'm from? I'm actually an American, if you must know.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2028. Comment #162491 by Quetzalcoatl on April 17, 2008 at 3:03 am

 avatarEpeeist-

a crime of which it seems Egomaniac is guilty.

Ironically, Annabanana did a post on her blog yesterday in which she commented on the increase of hit-and-run theists on RD.net, and suggested that they be ignored unless they have something salient to contribute. Perhaps I should have taken her advice.....

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2029. Comment #162492 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:04 am

Diacanu --

Whether it is so or isn't so (which nobody can know for certain), it gives meaning to people's existences nonetheless.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2030. Comment #162493 by irate_atheist on April 17, 2008 at 3:05 am

 avatar2020. Comment #162480 by epeeist -

Personally, I see no sense in PART E. EXEMPTIONS (Rule 38) Subsection (d) Para (i).

I cannot see why it is reasonable to permanently exempt a vessel from Section 3 (a) of Annex I purely based on keel-laying date.

It smacks to me of setting a dangerous precedent in law.

Perhaps you could enlighten me (pardon the pun) with your view on this matter.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2031. Comment #162494 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:07 am

Steve Zara --

Is there any other conceivable mechanism for such a thing to happen? A person must think very highly of themself if they believe they have the power to do such things without the aid of some greater spiritual force.

Regarding "hope" vs. "meaning" -- this hope is what lends the meaning. What's your issue with that?

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2032. Comment #162495 by epeeist on April 17, 2008 at 3:07 am

 avatarComment #162491 by Quetzalcoatl

Ironically, Annabanana did a post on her blog yesterday in which she commented on the increase of hit-and-run theists on RD.net, and suggested that they be ignored unless they have something salient to contribute. Perhaps I should have taken her advice.....
Ah well, as my mother would have said "Here's my head, my arse is coming later."

Egomaniac - I note that your registered on the site today. Could I ask you why? Could I also ask whether you were directed here from elsewhere, or did you come of your own accord?

Other Comments by epeeist

2033. Comment #162496 by clodhopper on April 17, 2008 at 3:08 am

 avatarEpee: "A classic example of initiating with the intent of generating quarrel dialogue"

Indeed. Quick registration. Lob a grenade or three. Run like fuck. Good name for it though.

Other Comments by clodhopper

2034. Comment #162497 by Steve Zara on April 17, 2008 at 3:08 am

 avatarComment #162494 by Egomaniac

You are still confusing "hope" with "meaning".

Is there any other conceivable mechanism for such a thing to happen?


What is the mechanism?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2035. Comment #162498 by Diacanu on April 17, 2008 at 3:11 am

 avatarEgomaniac-


Whether it is so or isn't so (which nobody can know for certain), it gives meaning to people's existences nonetheless.


If it is not so, then those people threw their lives away on a lie.

Quite the opposite of meaning, IMHO.

I'd rather seek the truth, than wrap myself in the security blanket of easy answers.

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2036. Comment #162499 by epeeist on April 17, 2008 at 3:13 am

 avatarComment #162496 by clodhopper

Indeed. Quick registration. Lob a grenade or three. Run like fuck. Good name for it though.
I refer you (I was going to say my learned friend, but he fizzled too) to http://austhink.com/critical/

Quarrel dialogue is one of the dialogue types defined in informal logic.

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2037. Comment #162501 by Vaal on April 17, 2008 at 3:14 am

 avatar2022. Comment #162482 by Egomaniac

The notion of a continued existence after death, along with the idea that the manner in which one's life has been lived will influence the level of quality of said existence adds meaning to many people's lives


So, your life has no meaning, unless you are plucking a harp on a cloud for eternity and your WHOLE life is dedicated to that. What a tragedy. Also, your morality based on being good solely for the selfish reason of eternal life, rather than being good for no other reason than being good, smacks of solipsism.

What a shocking waste of life, just wishing for your afterlife. Suggest you go out and have a look at a sunset or listening to some music and having some quality time with friends and family, making the most of THIS life, rather than living in cloud cuckoo land.

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2038. Comment #162502 by irate_atheist on April 17, 2008 at 3:15 am

 avatar2035. Comment #162495 by epeeist -
Could I also ask whether you were directed here from elsewhere, or did you come of your own accord?
Presumably Jesus sent him/her. I don't understand your interest in Egomaniac's masturbatory habits, however.

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2039. Comment #162503 by phatbat on April 17, 2008 at 3:16 am

 avatarEgomaniac

Bravo, my fellow atheists! Let's all give ourselves a big pat on the back for our intellectual superiority over the masses of peons that share our meaningless existence, yet like to delude themselves into thinking life is about anything more than self-praise and the belittling of inferiors!


So you are looking down on people here for doing that are you? Or do you really think it is ok?

Why don't u quote a sentence written by someone you don't like and say what you think of that sentence?

An please do explain how you can look down on other people for looking down on other people.

Other Comments by phatbat

2040. Comment #162506 by Greyman on April 17, 2008 at 3:18 am

2034. Comment #162494 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:07 am
Regarding "hope" vs. "meaning" -- this hope is what lends the meaning. What's your issue with that?
Probably in the definition of the term "meaning".

Other Comments by Greyman

2041. Comment #162507 by irate_atheist on April 17, 2008 at 3:20 am

 avatar2042. Comment #162503 by phatbat -

'I, an atheist, look down on him because he's a theist.'

'I, a theist, look up at him because he's an atheist.'

'I'm David Robertson. I know my place.'

(Thanks to the Two Ronnies)

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2042. Comment #162508 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:21 am

Quetztalcoatl --

I don't consider an atheist's existence to be meaningless. Why would I?

If you believe that we are here for no reason, where is the meaning in your existence?

I'm looking to find specific examples of the behavior I'm referring to (which I did see, believe it or not), but this thread is huge and I'm a little short on time, as it's late here. I will get back to you on that, though.

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2043. Comment #162510 by Quetzalcoatl on April 17, 2008 at 3:23 am

 avatarEgomaniac-

still waiting for those examples. Or have you already fled, having done your "duty"?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2044. Comment #162511 by irate_atheist on April 17, 2008 at 3:24 am

 avatar
I'm a little short on time, as it's late here...
Which may turn into 'I'm very busy and can't post a response here'.

Time of death 10:25 UTC. Cause: run out of time.

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2045. Comment #162512 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:24 am

epeeist --

I was linked here by the site for Ben Stein's movie.

Now, what was that challenge you had for me, again? Can you please restate it, remembering I'm an American and unfamiliar with sailing terminology?

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2046. Comment #162513 by epeeist on April 17, 2008 at 3:25 am

 avatarComment #162508 by Egomaniac

I'm looking to find specific examples of the behavior I'm referring to (which I did see, believe it or not), but this thread is huge and I'm a little short on time, as it's late here. I will get back to you on that, though.

Can I be Al-Rawandi, can I, can I?

Time of death 10:24 UTC, reason "I am a little short of time"

Other Comments by epeeist

2047. Comment #162514 by Egomaniac on April 17, 2008 at 3:27 am

Steve Zara --

The mechanism in my mind is that a higher power manages those processes.

Do you have a different explanation?

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2048. Comment #162515 by irate_atheist on April 17, 2008 at 3:27 am

 avatar2048. Comment #162512 by Egomaniac -

See 2020. Comment #162480 by epeeist


Or my response, 2033. Comment #162493 by irate_atheist

What's your opinion? Acceptable compromise or dangerous precedent?

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2049. Comment #162516 by irate_atheist on April 17, 2008 at 3:29 am

 avatar2049. Comment #162513 by epeeist -

Great minds think alike.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2050. Comment #162517 by NFT on April 17, 2008 at 3:29 am

 avatarepeeist

I offered him all sorts of topics to discuss, I was rather hoping he would take me up on the "International Regulations for the Prevention of Collisions at Sea", but he disappeared without responding.

You wouldn't like to take up the challenge would you, how about the difference between vessels constrained by their draft and those restricted in their ability to manoeuvre as a starter?


The potential conflict between Rules 17(a)(ii) and 17(b) might provide fertile ground for discussion.

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