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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments |

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure — that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 2201 - 2250 of 9025 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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2201. Comment #163111 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 2:19 am

 avatar2225. Comment #163098 by Steve Zara -

I regret to say, and please don't be offended, but your friend may well be a pillock.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2202. Comment #163113 by clodhopper on April 18, 2008 at 2:23 am

 avatarComment #163107 by epeeist
Given this you could travel along a spiral path and return before your time of your departure.


MMmmm. On the one hand getting home before you've left for work would be very nice but coming before the foreplay is over could be somewhat frustrating.

Other Comments by clodhopper

2203. Comment #163115 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:33 am

Reports of my death were greatly exaggerated. I'm back, as I said I would be, to answer questions that were posed to me before I went to bed (after staying up until 3:40 am, by the way). I'm not sure if I'll have time to get to them all tonight, as it's after 2 am right now, but I'll try.

OK, the first thing that a couple people asked was for me to give examples of the high and mighty attitude I claimed to see on this board. Well, let me start by pointing out the tone of pretty much the entire article these posts are under. Richard Dawkins comes across as an arrogant, bitter, and condescending man. An example of that (besides the slogan of the board):

"He [Ben Stein] certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough."

Of course, there's also the fact that he implies that people who believe in God are insane...

Now, getting to comments by actual posters (without naming names):

"I thought this movie would be good for a laugh, but apparantly [sic] not."

"I can't say this surprises me. I do want to see this movie, mostly out of morbid curiosity... mostly to laugh at the idiocy of the far right"

"Ah, I've been waiting for this all weekend. What a lovely snort of derision in the face of these increasingly desperate and absurd buffoons."

"Well, we're going to have to agree to disagree there, sport. These pitiful lying asshats deserve nothing but sarcasm, mockery and ridicule. They're not worth anything else. They're mendacious morons and to give them the slightest respect is to unjustifiably dignify their bullshit and thus help perpetuate it. Wise up."

OK, I think I've demonstrated that there's a noticeable amount of condescension going on here. Most of you are keeping things civil, and some even lighthearted/funny (like irate_atheist), but it only took sifting through a couple pages to gather those things. I don't have all night to gather a more *scientific* basis for my claim, but that's what I have given the time constraints. I'd also like to add that implications that I was stumped by this pretty simple question seem condescending to me.

Anyway, please have a little understanding of why I couldn't (and can't) stay too long here. It doesn't mean that I'm trying to hit-and-run, but that I'm working while I obtain a master's degree, and I don't have very much free time.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2204. Comment #163117 by BillySands on April 18, 2008 at 2:37 am

 avatarQuetz

This morning I received an e-mail from David Robertson telling me that my response will not be displayed, in the interests of keeping the thread "on topic".


Interesting. It was definately there last night!
Since only moderated comments appear, someone must have OKed it only for Robertson to censor it. Why does that not surprise me? Booooo! Bad Dave! Silencing your critics cos you cant cope no doubt!

Steve


The macro/micro evolution distinction is confusing. My sense of what macro-evolution is supposed to be is some significant change in a single generation. That does happen!


There are documented cases of multicellularity evolving in species of single celled algae in the presence of predatory rotifers. I dont know anything of the genetics of it though, but in terms of whether large phenotypic changes can occur suddenly or not, we dont need a mechanism.
There are also dolphins with 4 flippers. http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/fourfinned-dolphin-an-evolutionary-throwback/2006/11/05/1162661544728.html
Or chickens producing teeth http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=mutant-chicken-grows-alli

Again, the mechanism is not important, these changes can and do happen. When a cretinist talks of increased information, he is using a straw man as he somehow thinks a functional camera eye should evolve in one generation by accident. As with some examples I have given earlier (AbdA) increased "information" can also reduce complexity - but still alter body plans.
It is a load of bollocks which keeps getting repeated. They seem to think that if there is no evidence for incresed information, that some how invalidates macro evolution. It is a clear misunderstanding of how evolution works(although I suspect many dont want to understand).
At best all that could be said is that there is gap in our knowlegde - that invalidates nothing.
However, there is no gap. I doubt any of the fundies will read this, but here are some known mechanisms.

Genome duplication
Pseudogene generation
convertion of processed pseudogenes
Gene duplication
Duplication and transposition
Horizontal gene transfer
Nucleotide insertion
Crossover errors at meiosis
Retroviral insertion.

I notice FDI has not been back - no suprise there!

Other Comments by BillySands

2205. Comment #163118 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:39 am

To Quetzalcoatl on post 2056 --

It's my belief that when atheists attempt to "convert" people to their beliefs, which some undeniably do, they are depriving people of a real meaning to their existence, whether that meaning is true or not.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2206. Comment #163120 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:42 am

Diacanu (2058) --

Can you really call writing books, painting a painting, etc., a meaning for your *existence*? They're things you can derive pleasure out of, but on a deeper level, they don't explain why we're here. If one is an atheist, they can't logically think we exist for a reason, can they?

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2207. Comment #163123 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:46 am

Greyman (2059) --

"It does not follow that some higher power exists because people hope for a continued existance."

Yes. I never remotely implied anything contrary to that. What I did say is that such beliefs bring fulfillment to many people, whether they are accurate or not.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2208. Comment #163124 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 2:48 am

 avatar2235. Comment #163115 by Egomaniac -
Most of you are keeping things civil, and some even lighthearted/funny (like irate_atheist)...
You clearly haven't read many of my posts. Can we add pisspoor researching to your list of skills.

And as for:
Anyway, please have a little understanding of why I couldn't (and can't) stay too long here. It doesn't mean that I'm trying to hit-and-run, but that I'm working while I obtain a master's degree, and I don't have very much free time.
Please don't tell us it's in theology, the biggest non-subject of all time.

Furthermore: 2237. Comment #163118 by Egomaniac -

What are these 'beliefs' of which you write? Atheism = non-belief in gods.

And as for "...depriving people of a real meaning to their existence, whether that meaning is true or not." I think we can reasonably deduce from this single statement that if we gave you an enema, you could be buried in a matchbox.

Don't bother responding. Your reply won't be worth the paper it's not written on.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2209. Comment #163125 by Philip1978 on April 18, 2008 at 2:48 am

 avatarEgomaniac

I think the words you are looking for are "De-convert people from their beliefs", atheists do not believe in atheism.

"depriving people of a real meaning to their existence",


That's a rather grand statement to make, are you saying my life has no significant meaning unless I believe in a god? I have a cup of Tea on my desk right now, that's significant to the meaning of my life! :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

2210. Comment #163126 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 2:50 am

 avatar
OK, I'm getting no Goedel love.


?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2211. Comment #163127 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 2:51 am

 avatar2244. Comment #163125 by Philip1978 -

I haven't 'called' him yet, but it's certainly heading that way.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2212. Comment #163128 by Roland_F on April 18, 2008 at 2:52 am

2197. Comment #162783 by MPhil
What shall I say - I study under a professor who holds a chair where the catholic church needs to give its okay for the candidate to fill it - a chair in philosophy, not theology mind you. ... in a country where "Reverence for god" is the highest goal of education - as laid down in the constitution.

Hallo Michael, unfrei im Freistaat Bayern ?!

reminds me about a book "introduction of Logic" (Corazon L. Cruz) the only one I could find in the Catholic country I am residing currently.

preface: [It is my hope that while students learn the principles of correct reasoning .... It is my hope, too, that they grow in wisdom, aware of the intimations of love of God and their fellowmen in and between the lines]

And the content goes like this:
Universal quantifiers [Every sunrise is a beautiful gift of God, Prayer is the lifting of one's mind and heart to God]
Obversion : [No uncharitable person is a true lover of God]

Enthymeme Syllogism: [God is the supreme good, therefore God is infinitely loveable]

And so on, I really prefer the Boolean logic from my applied informatics study compared to this.
So your Philosophy study is similar then ?

Other Comments by Roland_F

2213. Comment #163129 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:52 am

Roland_F (2062) --

"Must be a very sad existence to life only in the hope of an afterlife, regret each thought about joy just in the hope for an better afterlife rather than enjoying the here and now : the only life you have."

Why would you presume that this is necessarily the case for people who believe in a higher power (or powers)? Is it inconceivable that such people could actually enjoy their lives despite believing in said power(s)?

"This hope of a better afterlife is just the 'opium for the poor' to bear the suppression of the ruling cleptocrats and clerics."

Only poor people hope for an afterlife?

"Learn about Hinduism and Buddhism, their central Karma function is working without a God as all knowing judge to decide the level of rebirth."

I'm aware of the Buddhist position on God, and I find it illogical. Many Buddhists do too, and there is no general agreement on the involvement of a higher power (or lack thereof). You're mistaken about Hinduism holding that higher powers have no bearing on the process.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2214. Comment #163130 by phatbat on April 18, 2008 at 2:53 am

 avatarComment #163115 by Egomaniac

"He [Ben Stein] certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough."


He's reviewing the film and like any bad film it will get bad reviews. After the way RD was treated being tricked into it by the man he's being 'condescending' about isn't a bad thing - he deserves whatever RD says about him. He is famous for having that voice anyway. He clearly shows a lack of reasoning skills by drawing comparisons with Nazi germany etc. And he clearly has a lack of scientific knowledge as demonstrated by his allegence to ID. This is a non point.


"I thought this movie would be good for a laugh, but apparantly [sic] not."


You really should name who it is. But what's wrong with this - he is stating that from the info given it is apparently not worth seeing for a laugh. It is not condescending to find it funny to watch some non scientists running around thinking they've found some great contraversy within science when they haven't.

Condescension is not always a bad thing if the target of the condescension is deserving of it and probably far more than condescension.

I think your attitude in your first post below indicated that you were looking down on the atheists for not being as moraly exemplary as you who would never do that to anyone.

Bravo, my fellow atheists! Let's all give ourselves a big pat on the back for our intellectual superiority over the masses of peons that share our meaningless existence, yet like to delude themselves into thinking life is about anything more than self-praise and the belittling of inferiors!


They are not inferior completely or any less deserving of human rights, they are just demonstrating a complete lack of reasoning skills while at the same time thinking they are. They are making a judgement on scientific issues with absolutely no scientific knowledge, thinking they know better than 99% of the scientific community, thats arrogance, they made no effort to try and understand where the ID ideas fall down - they just lied and tricked their way into people like RD's time and made a film like this. This deserves condescension anyway. Try and defend their point instead of just coming out with holier than thou ad homs like that.

Other Comments by phatbat

2215. Comment #163131 by Philip1978 on April 18, 2008 at 2:53 am

 avatarIrate

After checking the Tea leaves, I think you will "call" very soon!

Philip :)

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2216. Comment #163132 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 2:54 am

 avatarComment #163120 by Egomaniac

What I don't understand is why people can't be mature enough to find their own personal meanings for life. I use the analogy of a prison. People in prison are given "meaning" to their lives: they are told what to do and when to do it, and someome watches over them all the time. But wouldn't you rather be free to choose what to do?

Eternal life, if you believe in it, is nothing to do with with meaning. It gives people hope. The idea of having eternal life does not help people answer the question of what they should be trying to achieve during their mortal lifespan.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2217. Comment #163133 by Quetzalcoatl on April 18, 2008 at 2:55 am

 avatarEgomaniac-

It's my belief that when atheists attempt to "convert" people to their beliefs, which some undeniably do, they are depriving people of a real meaning to their existence, whether that meaning is true or not


I wouldn't put it like that, for several reasons. Firstly, there are no "atheist beliefs". Atheism is a lack of belief in God. That's all you "need" to be an atheist. But let's not get side-tracked.

Your comment is interesting, in that it suggests that only religion can give people a true meaning for their existence. That raises the question: religion in general, or just the one that you believe in?

Philip-

I have a cup of Tea on my desk right now


Me too! I predict they will be delicious and thirst-quenching.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2218. Comment #163135 by epeeist on April 18, 2008 at 2:57 am

 avatarComment #163115 by Egomaniac
Of course, there's also the fact that he implies that people who believe in God are insane...

Shorter OED gives "insane" as:

adjective 1 in or relating to an unsound state of mind; seriously mentally ill.
While "delusion" is given as
noun a belief or impression that is not in accordance with a generally accepted reality.
You will note that the two are quite different in meaning. Either you are letting your presuppositions influence your interpretation or guilty of committing the fallacy of equivocation.


Now, getting to comments by actual posters (without naming names):

"I thought this movie would be good for a laugh, but apparantly [sic] not."
You say you were redirected here from the "Expelled" site. Does that mean you are a follower of ID?

What you have to realise is that ID is simply not science. It fulfils none of the requirements pieced together by scientists and philosophers of science in the past centuries. Claiming it is science is dishonest. Further, many (all?) the personal reports of people being dismissed from posts for being proponents of ID have been shown to be incomplete or wrong. The interviews with PZ and RD were done under false pretences, another piece of dishonesty.

As you will have noticed the film has also purportedly used material which they plagiarised or for which they have not obtained permission to broadcast. This is theft.

Hence the negative comments about the film and its proponents on this site.

And it isn't just this site. Go and read the reviews from other places, such as Fox news. A compilation can be found at www.expelledexposed.com

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2219. Comment #163136 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 2:57 am

Greyman (2067) --

"So it doesn't matter what anyone believes as long as persuing it provides a sense of fulfillment?

Fair enough. I'll continue to believe truth matters and find fulfillment in it's persuit though."

OK, I can respect that. I don't think this is a matter where truth can be proven factually, though, so you may end up having to go with what you think is best for you, if you ever want to settle on anything.

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2220. Comment #163139 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 3:00 am

 avatar
I'm aware of the Buddhist position on God, and I find it illogical.


This is no argument. You linked belief in God with belief in an afterlife, but provided no mechanism for God to provide an afterlife, so how are you in a position to reject a belief in survival of death without God? You can't, unless you can describe the process by which God supplies the afterlife.

Many Buddhists do too, and there is no general agreement on the involvement of a higher power (or lack thereof).


Yes, there is. The general opinion is that there may or may not be higher powers, but there is no creator, and their existence is largely irrelevant.

You're mistaken about Hinduism holding that higher powers have no bearing on the process.


Hinduism can be like Buddhism - it can consider the existence of higher powers irrelevant.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2221. Comment #163140 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 3:01 am

 avatar2253. Comment #163135 by epeeist -

But, to be fair, sustained delusions can lead to serious mental illness. (wooter?)

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2222. Comment #163142 by epeeist on April 18, 2008 at 3:02 am

 avatarComment #163136 by Egomaniac

OK, I can respect that. I don't think this is a matter where truth can be proven factually, though, so you may end up having to go with what you think is best for you, if you ever want to settle on anything.
So what is truth if it is not correspondence with the facts?

Other Comments by epeeist

2223. Comment #163143 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 3:04 am

 avatar2257. Comment #163142 by epeeist -

That, I would contend, is a statement that just need underlining.

*! Smacks head on desk.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2224. Comment #163144 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:05 am

Diacanu (2069) --

First of all, why would following such a thing, which you call a lie, necessarily amount to throwing away one's life?

Will any lie do? That depends on how damaging the lie is. You seem to presume that belief in a higher power is always very damaging. Prove it.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2225. Comment #163146 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 3:07 am

 avatar2259. Comment #163144 by Egomaniac -

You made the statement 'why would following such a thing, which you call a lie, necessarily amount to throwing away one's life?' You made the claim. You have to provide evidence for your assertion. The burden of proof lies (pun intended) on you.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2226. Comment #163149 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 3:09 am

 avatar2260. Comment #163145 by clodhopper -

I'm waiting until some even more inane statements are made. Trust me, he will be 'called'.

(RM?)

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2227. Comment #163150 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:09 am

Steve Zara (2070) --

Well, how would I, or anybody, understand such a mechanism?

If you allow the theoretical existence of a being that could create matter out of nothing, and could create a soul (which is a necessary component of an afterlife), I think you have to concede that this being would also likely be able to create and manage an afterlife, correct?

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2228. Comment #163153 by irate_atheist on April 18, 2008 at 3:10 am

 avatar2262. Comment #163150 by Egomaniac -

Can it bend spoons, too?

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2229. Comment #163155 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 3:14 am

 avatarComment #163150 by Egomaniac
If you allow the theoretical existence of a being that could create matter out of nothing, and could create a soul (which is a necessary component of an afterlife), I think you have to concede that this being would also likely be able to create and manage an afterlife, correct?


No, I am afraid not. What you are claiming here is that a belief in God justifies a belief in the afterlife. All you are saying here is "God can do anything". That is no kind of argument. It is certainly no argument for an afterlife requiring God. Even assuming the existence of God (something you would have to prove first), each "power" would have be to independently justified.

But perhaps we can make a start. I'll skip over the "God exists" step for now. Give me the mechanism through which God creates matter out of nothing, then we can discuss the nature of souls, and how God manufactures them.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2230. Comment #163158 by phatbat on April 18, 2008 at 3:18 am

 avatarComment #163150 by Egomaniac

If you allow the theoretical existence of a being that could create matter out of nothing, and could create a soul (which is a necessary component of an afterlife), I think you have to concede that this being would also likely be able to create and manage an afterlife, correct?


This just says if god can create a soul he can supply an afterlife. but doesn't say why a soul can't exist without god and there-for can't have an afterlife.

[EDIT] oh steve beat me to it

Other Comments by phatbat

2231. Comment #163160 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:20 am

Vaal (2089) --

"Ah, please advise us what you will be doing for eternity in the afterlife. I would be very interested to know. And what age do you go to the afterlife at, the age you died, or as a youngster. What ages will your parents be? Will you be married for eternity, or like the Muslims are you going to have non stop sex with 72 virgins for ever?"

How would I know? Perhaps it's whatever you want it to be, assuming the powers that be feel you deserve a reward.

"So, you need the threat of eternal damnation otherwise you will be out raping, looting and in the case of the insane, flying planes into buildings. What a sad indictment of humanity. It is a wonder how our species managed to survive all those tens of thousands of years before the advent of the despotic Abrahamic desert God."

I don't; some do. I think almost everybody behaves differently when they know somebody is watching. Have you ever driven over the speed limit, only to slow down when you see a police car? Most people do (including myself). I would never rape, murder, etc., even if I was an atheist, and I could never get caught, and I'm fairly sure just about all of you are the same way, but not everybody is that way.

"I would say quite an accurate characterization. as evidenced by your own post."

What an odd definition of "evidence" you have...

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2232. Comment #163161 by Mark Barratt on April 18, 2008 at 3:22 am

 avatarIf we want to put reviews of bad films in context, it's always worth going to www.rogerebert.com and searching for Zero Star reviews.

Choice extract, from Ebert's review of "North":

I hated this movie. Hated hated hated hated hated this movie. Hated it. Hated every simpering stupid vacant audience-insulting moment of it. Hated the sensibility that thought anyone would like it. Hated the implied insult to the audience by its belief that anyone would be entertained by it.


How does Dawkins compare?

Other Comments by Mark Barratt

2233. Comment #163162 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:28 am

Sorry if I missed any posts directed to me, but I'm skipping ahead to tonight's comments, for now...

To Brian (2238) --

Is it really the typical behavior of a person who is not bitter towards another person to criticize every little detail about them?

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2234. Comment #163163 by Vaal on April 18, 2008 at 3:28 am

 avatarEgomaniac

Hardly worth replying to such inanity. I dread to think how anybody would mark any paper by you, unless it is a study of obscurantism.

So, let's see "How would I know", "I don't know", "perhaps" etc etc etc... so you don't actually know anything and it all comes down to wishful thinking. Try harder if you want to be taken seriously.

Irate, you are being very patient...

Other Comments by Vaal

2235. Comment #163164 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:31 am

Brian (2240)

"Could you give a (universal/theistic) reason for existing that is logical and doesn't beg the question?"

Perhaps we exist because a higher power wills it. Perhaps this higher power finds enjoyment or fulfillment in watching its creations.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2236. Comment #163165 by Roland_F on April 18, 2008 at 3:31 am

2248. Comment #163129 by Egomaniac

Is it inconceivable that such people could actually enjoy their lives despite believing in said power(s)?

Focusing on some hypothetical afterlife is distracting the here and now, the only life you have, and times run out and you wasted all your free time with prayer and feeling guilty of sins. And you waste a lot of sacrifices of llambs, rice bowls or whatever, which you could better use to feed your starving kids rather than the street dogs and rats.

Only poor people hope for an afterlife?

No I said for a BETTER afterlife as the current life in poverty, starvation and suppression is not very satisfying.
So instead of 'opium' maybe better call it valium for the poor masses. When you visit India with around half billion people living below the poverty line , you will see that this Hinduism and the hope for a better afterlife as rich person is just calming down social unrest, similar in Christian third world countries or the Christian history of the dark ages.

So to join both statement you might only feel better to bear your current low life based on the hope of a better afterlife.

I'm aware of the Buddhist position on God, and I find it illogical.
The Buddhist position is there is no God very simple all strength is only coming from yourself. And reincarnation based on Karma is practically the same (of course based on historical development of B out of H)., and beside the multitude of Hinduism Goddesses, also here the main idea of all interconnectedness of all sentient beings, the 33 Millions Gods as the number of people around during this times, e.g. each is his own God and is responsible for his own Karma based on deeds not on faith.

Other Comments by Roland_F

2237. Comment #163166 by Steve Zara on April 18, 2008 at 3:33 am

 avatarComment #163164 by Egomaniac
Perhaps we exist because a higher power wills it.


And how is that supposed to work then?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2238. Comment #163167 by phatbat on April 18, 2008 at 3:34 am

 avatarComment #163162 by Egomaniac

Is it really the typical behavior of a person who is not bitter towards another person to criticize every little detail about them?


It wasn't every little detail it was a few obvious facts that were very annoying. Bitterness is not the only thinkg that might trigger the response. Perhapse irritation, anger, wanting to make sure his readers no exactly his faults. Bitterness is just one reason sommeone might do as you say.

Other Comments by phatbat

2239. Comment #163168 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:37 am

irate (2243)

No, it's not remotely connected to theology.

You say atheism is non-belief in God(s)... what I am using as a definition is that atheism is disbelief in God(s). It is therefore the belief that there is no God (or gods).

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2240. Comment #163169 by clodhopper on April 18, 2008 at 3:38 am

 avatarOooo. I can't wait till he gets to me. I'm all of a lather.

Other Comments by clodhopper

2241. Comment #163170 by Philip1978 on April 18, 2008 at 3:38 am

 avatar
How would I know? Perhaps it's whatever you want it to be, assuming the powers that be feel you deserve a reward.


Again, I get the feeling that somehow believing in God makes it better than not believing, somehow believing makes you more privileged? How does that work?

Powers that be? Are we in a Joss Wheedon program, where is David Boreanaz or Alyson Hannigan? :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

2242. Comment #163172 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:40 am

Philip (2244) --

Sorry, I don't mean to insult anybody... I'm sure most atheists find happiness their lives. But in a grand sense, an atheist must think they exist for no real reason, which I find very disheartening.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2243. Comment #163173 by epeeist on April 18, 2008 at 3:42 am

 avatarComment #163168 by Egomaniac

You say atheism is non-belief in God(s)... what I am using as a definition is that atheism is disbelief in God(s). It is therefore the belief that there is no God (or gods).
Try ~(exists x) G(x)

At some point you are going to have to justify why you think the class of gods contains one member and why that member just happens to be the god you worship.

Other Comments by epeeist

2244. Comment #163174 by Philip1978 on April 18, 2008 at 3:43 am

 avatarBut in a grand sense, an atheist must think they exist for no real reason, which I find very disheartening.


You haven't insulted me I promise!

I can promise you that my life has great meaning in the sense that I do my best to live it, that is my reason and its very real! :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

2245. Comment #163179 by Sargeist on April 18, 2008 at 3:52 am

 avatarPhilip #163170:

I'm *always* wondering how I can get hold of Alyson Hannigan!

Other Comments by Sargeist

2246. Comment #163180 by black wolf on April 18, 2008 at 3:53 am

 avatar
But in a grand sense, an atheist must think they exist for no real reason, which I find very disheartening.


I find it irrelevant. Nothing in our existence or anything we perceive of the universe around us gives the slightest indication that such a 'reason in a grand sense' exists or is even logically necessary. There is no reason in making up reasons.

Other Comments by black wolf

2247. Comment #163183 by Roland_F on April 18, 2008 at 3:53 am

2266. Comment #163160 by Egomaniac
["Vaal (2089) -- Ah, please advise us what you will be doing for eternity in the afterlife. I would be very interested to know. And what age do you go to the afterlife at, the age you died, or as a youngster"].

How would I know? Perhaps it's whatever you want it to be, assuming the powers that be feel you deserve a reward.

In short you don't know if someone is living in heaven on a cloud playing harp. Is he/she there present in the state at the moment of the death or during the receivable of last sacraments, or of the moment when buried ? So it will often be a rotten cancer infested corpse, a decomposed body of a 90 year old found dead after 2 month in the apartment, the shredded remains of an accident victim etc. and this should be the enjoyable place where you center your entire life around for this hope?

So to wrap it up: Ego has no idea about anything, just whish full thinking and lot's of fantasy mixed with some "belief in belief" and comes here from a webpage of 'Expelled' a poor quality movie which build around the alleged expelled ID scientists, of lying and tricking scientists into it, of copyright infringements for trick animation and music and is just a propaganda for ID (just religious literary Bible interpretation of Genesis in wannabe science disguise).

Other Comments by Roland_F

2248. Comment #163184 by Egomaniac on April 18, 2008 at 3:54 am

Phatbat (2249) --

I understand that Ben Stein's movie is probably deserving of some criticism (I myself see it's shaky on a number of things).

I think you're a little premature in asserting that ID is completely devoid of merit. While I believe in evolution, I also find it to be astoundingly difficult to believe that the first form of life could have assembled itself randomly. The first form of life would need the incredible luck of not only being able to sustain itself somehow, but to randomly contain the correct genetic sequence (and the means to use it) for another form of life that would also be capable of sustaining itself and reproducing itself. I don't see how anybody could shoot down the idea that a higher power got involved at that point, unless you operate under the assumption (for some reason) that there is no such power.

As for my first post -- well, I wasn't saying that you all are my intellectual inferiors... but some of you clearly presume that I, and people like me, are beneath you (not you in particular -- you've been quite decent). My point was simply an observation of some of what I see going on here... it had nothing to do with how moral I think I am.

Other Comments by Egomaniac

2249. Comment #163187 by Sargeist on April 18, 2008 at 3:56 am

 avatarEgomaniac: Evolution has nothing to do with the origins of life.

Other Comments by Sargeist

2250. Comment #163189 by Sargeist on April 18, 2008 at 4:00 am

 avatarAnd, furthermore, there are plenty of ways, especially in this internet age, of acquiring that quaint stuff called "information". Try going to find out what biologists think about abiogenesis. It's all very interesting.

Were you aware that people used to think that there was something special about organic compounds? That they could not be synthesised from inorganic compounds? That they needed the mysterious processes of life to make them? Oh, and then some guy went and made urea in a lab. Bugger, bang goes another idea - this time vitalism.

Now, I like speculative philosophy as much as the next guy (him, over there), but sooner or later we have to go looking for facts.

[edit: mention urea (silly fool I am)]

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