









Lying for Jesus?Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."
It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.
Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?
2502. Comment #163736 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 12:00 am
Comment #163462 by epeeistThanks for that, it was mostly culled from elsewhere.
epee: good post.
2503. Comment #163737 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 12:03 am
Oh....I found this too which is rich.I will keep this one in mind. No predictions, therefore not falsifiable, therefore not science. And Dumbski said it.
"But what about the predictive power of intelligent design? To require prediction fundamentally misconstrues design. To require prediction of design is to put design in the same boat as natural laws, locating their explanatory power in an extrapolation from past experience.
2504. Comment #163746 by irate_atheist on April 19, 2008 at 12:53 am
I live in a country that is almost completely atheist, and on a day to day basis the ignorance I encounter is never of a religous kind, but rather of a conspiracy-theory kind, and recently I have been confronted with many, otherwise clever people, who seem to have fallen into the trap of simplifying issues by seeing malice, where I see much more ignorance and incompetance.To which I would say; never underestimate the stupidity of the general public.
2505. Comment #163749 by thisisme on April 19, 2008 at 1:07 am
Hi MPhil - thanks for getting back. I still don't think you're understanding my arguments properly, but as you say lets leave it till after the 'reading break' :-) It's been good debating - while I still don't agree with your arguments (for the reasons stated in my previous post - I think you need to come out of your atheist box and have another look at them too :-) you're the most logical thinking atheist I've ever encountered. But for now back to study and dissertation, then Kant et al and then - the world shall hear from me again!2506. Comment #163750 by Goldy on April 19, 2008 at 1:17 am
Late again, sorry...Evolution has never been observed and will never be observed.
2507. Comment #163756 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:50 am
you're the most logical thinking atheist I've ever encountered.
2508. Comment #163758 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 1:57 am
2509. Comment #163760 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 2:09 am
2510. Comment #163764 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 2:15 am
2511. Comment #163765 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 2:21 am
the arguments have to be addressed!
2512. Comment #163766 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:21 am
It doesn't matter what you personally believe - the arguments have to be addressed!
2513. Comment #163768 by mikejswalker on April 19, 2008 at 2:24 am
Cordura's baby must be onto dessert at least!!??2514. Comment #163769 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 2:26 am
"Well, I don't think they're right because of [insert argument which is shot down by mine - ...to which this is the reply]"
2515. Comment #163770 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:27 am
2516. Comment #163774 by clodhopper on April 19, 2008 at 2:43 am
2517. Comment #163776 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 2:47 am
Perhaps, though, some arguments (such as the "if we evolved from apes why are there still apes" brilliance) could be safely ignored in favour of more productive conversations.
2518. Comment #163778 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:50 am
2519. Comment #163779 by Paula Kirby on April 19, 2008 at 2:51 am
Steve Zara: You know what puzzles me? If we came from the sea... why are there still fish?And if we came from dust, why do I still have to go round with a bloody vacuum cleaner twice a week?
2520. Comment #163781 by Roland_F on April 19, 2008 at 2:55 am
2408. Comment #163418 by cordura5"A Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel, a former died-in-the-wool atheist journalist. *****I DARE you to read them.***** It drastically changed my outlook on things
I was like you, but after reading them, I just couldn't rationalize my former beliefs
2521. Comment #163782 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:56 am
2522. Comment #163783 by Geoff on April 19, 2008 at 2:57 am
2523. Comment #163786 by Roland_F on April 19, 2008 at 3:04 am
2525. Comment #163783 by Geoffthought it was established by now that we came from Kiwi fruit? Or penguins...
2524. Comment #163788 by Goldy on April 19, 2008 at 3:07 am
And if we came from dust, why do I still have to go round with a bloody vacuum cleaner twice a week?
a more important question for you is this: if women came from a man's rib, then why do they still have skeletons?And where did that Y chromosome go?
2525. Comment #163789 by rod-the-farmer on April 19, 2008 at 3:09 am
2526. Comment #163791 by Goldy on April 19, 2008 at 3:15 am
I now understand why Darwinist don't agree with ID, atheist don't believe in God. That's simple enough to explain. To bad as a scientist you can't explain how life started. That would give a little validity to your 'Theory', that is, it is only a theory and NOT a proven fact. I do have one question though, if human DNA is really ape DNA that has evolved, how come there are still apes on the planet?
2527. Comment #163797 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 3:51 am
2528. Comment #163798 by black wolf on April 19, 2008 at 3:54 am
2529. Comment #163799 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 4:14 am
With some creotards, counter-questioning is effective.
2530. Comment #163801 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 4:28 am
cordura5(Actually, the lemmings purposefully jumping off cliffs is an untrue story. But I will save that for another time.)You twat. Do you realise you are actually a bit stupid? This site is full of intelligent and interested scientific people, and you think you can tease us by exploding a myth that is well known to be one. How can you think we won't know the truth of the lemmings story?
2531. Comment #163811 by pacman71192 on April 19, 2008 at 5:13 am
As for bacterial reistance, these adaptations are in fact evidence for change over time, but not the kind that would change a microbe into a man. All examples of bacterial resistance are of microevolution, i.e change witin its own kind, Take staphylococcus for instance. When it becomes resistant to an antibiotic it remains staphylococcus and doesn't become a different kind of bacterium altogether. It remains staphylococcus.2532. Comment #163814 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 5:20 am
i.e change witin its own kind
Existing information may modified, lost or even exchanged between bacteria, but never created.
2533. Comment #163815 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 5:27 am
2534. Comment #163816 by pacman71192 on April 19, 2008 at 5:28 am
Tyler Durden2535. Comment #163817 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 5:37 am
YepDevastating.
2536. Comment #163818 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 5:37 am
2537. Comment #163819 by phil rimmer on April 19, 2008 at 5:42 am
2538. Comment #163820 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 5:46 am
2539. Comment #163821 by pacman71192 on April 19, 2008 at 5:49 am
All that is within a living cell could not be placed ther by chance.2540. Comment #163822 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 5:50 am
could you please say how the design is implemented.Steve,
2541. Comment #163823 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 5:53 am
All that is within a living cell could not be placed ther by chance.Who said it was chance?
2542. Comment #163824 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 5:53 am
All that is within a living cell could not be placed ther by chance.Here we go.
2543. Comment #163825 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 5:56 am
Professor Dawkins, the desperation you are showing, in trying to discredit this documentary, reminds me of a child scraping the bottom of a pudding pot. The points made are about as devoid of meaningful substance as the fossil record is of transitional fossils. The science academy emperor has no clothes and is desperate.2544. Comment #163826 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 5:56 am
All that is within a living cell could not be placed ther by chance
Please explain then how bacteria evolve resistance to man-made antibiotics. That is new information
2545. Comment #163830 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 6:04 am
2546. Comment #163831 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 6:05 am
RemnantThe points made are about as devoid of meaningful substance as the fossil record is of transitional fossils.Perhaps you'd like to show Richard the way and add some substance to your argument?
2547. Comment #163832 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 6:06 am
2548. Comment #163833 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 6:07 am
The points made are about as devoid of meaningful substance as the fossil record is of transitional fossils.So you've never read anything on Tiktallik or Archaeopteryx:
2549. Comment #163838 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 6:37 am
As for bacterial reistance, these adaptations are in fact evidence for change over time,
but not the kind that would change a microbe into a man.
When it becomes resistant to an antibiotic it remains staphylococcus and doesn't become a different kind of bacterium altogether. It remains staphylococcus.
There are documented cases of multicellularity evolving in species of single celled algae in the presence of predatory rotifers. I dont know anything of the genetics of it though, but in terms of whether large phenotypic changes can occur suddenly or not, we dont need a mechanism.
There are also dolphins with 4 flippers. http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/fourfinned-dolphin-an-evolutionary-throwback/2006/11/05/1162661544728.html
Or chickens producing teeth http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=mutant-chicken-grows-alli
Again, the mechanism is not important, these changes can and do happen. When a cretinist talks of increased information, he is using a straw man as he somehow thinks a functional camera eye should evolve in one generation by accident. As with some examples I have given earlier (AbdA) increased "information" can also reduce complexity - but still alter body plans.
It is a load of bollocks which keeps getting repeated. They seem to think that if there is no evidence for incresed information, that some how invalidates macro evolution. It is a clear misunderstanding of how evolution works(although I suspect many dont want to understand).
At best all that could be said is that there is gap in our knowlegde - that invalidates nothing.
However, there is no gap. I doubt any of the fundies will read this, but here are some known mechanisms.
Genome duplication
Pseudogene generation
convertion of processed pseudogenes
Gene duplication
Duplication and transposition
Horizontal gene transfer
Nucleotide insertion
Crossover errors at meiosis
Retroviral insertion.
http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins,page45#163117
Therefore, if any complex change is to take place to turn an organism from one kind to another "more complex" kind, it must add new information to that kind's, i.e organism's, DNA
That is not what we observe taking place in bacteria at all. New information is never created. Existing information may modified, lost or even exchanged between bacteria, but never created.
2550. Comment #163839 by keith on April 19, 2008 at 6:39 am
Professor Dawkins, the desperation you are showing, in trying to discredit this documentary, reminds me of a child scraping the bottom of a pudding pot.
2501. Comment #163728 by Nikolaj on April 18, 2008 at 10:37 pm
SharonMcT:You are of course right, which is why I appologised to you in my previous post, and I shall do so again now.
I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought you thought that Ben Stein and Mathis are pure evil. I had a feeling you were alot more observant than that, and I was right, as your statement: People may be greedy because they are under the impression that they are serving their own loved ones, for example." clearly shows.
I wanted to make a more general statement that jumping to the simple conclussion of "Evil people" is not a very skeptic and open-minded thing to do, and I used your first post here as a starting-point for my own diatribe, and it wasn't meant to be specifically aimed at you.
I really am sorry for that.
I live in a country that is almost completely atheist, and on a day to day basis the ignorance I encounter is never of a religous kind, but rather of a conspiracy-theory kind, and recently I have been confronted with many, otherwise clever people, who seem to have fallen into the trap of simplifying issues by seeing malice, where I see much more ignorance and incompetance.
This has gotten me going a bit, cause I don't like to see my atheist countrymen believing in the devil. Saying: "George Bush is hellbent on world-domination, and anyone who's not a socialist like us is willfully hurting people only for their own sick pleasures" is doing just that, I think.
So I'm sorry again for letting my diatribe, which was really aimed at some my own peers here in Denmark, be directed at you in stead. It wasn't intended as such.
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