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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 2501 - 2550 of 9332 |

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2501. Comment #163728 by Nikolaj on April 18, 2008 at 10:37 pm

SharonMcT:

You are of course right, which is why I appologised to you in my previous post, and I shall do so again now.

I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I thought you thought that Ben Stein and Mathis are pure evil. I had a feeling you were alot more observant than that, and I was right, as your statement: People may be greedy because they are under the impression that they are serving their own loved ones, for example." clearly shows.

I wanted to make a more general statement that jumping to the simple conclussion of "Evil people" is not a very skeptic and open-minded thing to do, and I used your first post here as a starting-point for my own diatribe, and it wasn't meant to be specifically aimed at you.

I really am sorry for that.

I live in a country that is almost completely atheist, and on a day to day basis the ignorance I encounter is never of a religous kind, but rather of a conspiracy-theory kind, and recently I have been confronted with many, otherwise clever people, who seem to have fallen into the trap of simplifying issues by seeing malice, where I see much more ignorance and incompetance.

This has gotten me going a bit, cause I don't like to see my atheist countrymen believing in the devil. Saying: "George Bush is hellbent on world-domination, and anyone who's not a socialist like us is willfully hurting people only for their own sick pleasures" is doing just that, I think.

So I'm sorry again for letting my diatribe, which was really aimed at some my own peers here in Denmark, be directed at you in stead. It wasn't intended as such.

Other Comments by Nikolaj

2502. Comment #163736 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 12:00 am

 avatarComment #163571 by clodhopper
Comment #163462 by epeeist

epee: good post.
Thanks for that, it was mostly culled from elsewhere.

OK, small fencing analogy. You fence on a rectangular strip (piste). There are two ways of scoring against your opponent, hitting them and forcing them off the end of the piste. People who get pushed into their end zone tend to be forced into defence, and the defence gets wilder the closer they get to the end line.

I am suggesting that the "Expelled" zombies are pushing us in this way. We need to stop defending and start pushing back. We can demonstrate that the ToE is science, Popper was initially sceptical but came round to the view that it was testable and falsifiable which pretty well makes it good enough for me.

While the trolls may have some ludicrous idea of the weaknesses of the ToE (in their notes somewhere) answering these puts us on the back foot (to really mix metaphors). We should be asking them to demonstrate why ID is science, what its predictions are, how it can be tested, how it can be falsified. And we should be going all Brouwer on them. No existence theories, we want constructions and we want evidence.

Similarly with the likes of thisisme. I have found his discussion with MPhil interesting, but to a certain extent they are talking past each other.

If thisisme is claiming objective, absolute morality then let us see an example, how is it objective, why is it objective, what is the decision procedure for deciding this?

Other Comments by epeeist

2503. Comment #163737 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 12:03 am

 avatarComment #163575 by clodhopper
Oh....I found this too which is rich.

"But what about the predictive power of intelligent design? To require prediction fundamentally misconstrues design. To require prediction of design is to put design in the same boat as natural laws, locating their explanatory power in an extrapolation from past experience.
I will keep this one in mind. No predictions, therefore not falsifiable, therefore not science. And Dumbski said it.

Other Comments by epeeist

2504. Comment #163746 by irate_atheist on April 19, 2008 at 12:53 am

 avatar2504. Comment #163728 by Nikolaj -
I live in a country that is almost completely atheist, and on a day to day basis the ignorance I encounter is never of a religous kind, but rather of a conspiracy-theory kind, and recently I have been confronted with many, otherwise clever people, who seem to have fallen into the trap of simplifying issues by seeing malice, where I see much more ignorance and incompetance.
To which I would say; never underestimate the stupidity of the general public.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

2505. Comment #163749 by thisisme on April 19, 2008 at 1:07 am

Hi MPhil - thanks for getting back. I still don't think you're understanding my arguments properly, but as you say lets leave it till after the 'reading break' :-) It's been good debating - while I still don't agree with your arguments (for the reasons stated in my previous post - I think you need to come out of your atheist box and have another look at them too :-) you're the most logical thinking atheist I've ever encountered. But for now back to study and dissertation, then Kant et al and then - the world shall hear from me again!
:-)
thisisme

Other Comments by thisisme

2506. Comment #163750 by Goldy on April 19, 2008 at 1:17 am

Late again, sorry...
Evolution has never been observed and will never be observed.

Errr, yes it has and it forevermore will be. Cretin.
Creationism, on the other hand, really has never been observed :-) Alfter all, has anyone here got ANY account of a fully formed species just appearing. Not by evolution, but just by...errr, "POOF! There it is!" sort of appearing.
Fucking idiots.

Other Comments by Goldy

2507. Comment #163756 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:50 am

 avatar
you're the most logical thinking atheist I've ever encountered.


Thanks, but you'll forgive me for saying this is somehow strange coming from someone who

1)Thinks that morality is impossible without intrinsic moral values - and that therefore they must exist

2)Presupposes the authority of the bible (To me no different than someone presupposing the veracity and authority of the Iliad)

and

3)presupposes (thus) the existence of a god, and has an at least partially contradictory concept of that supposed entity.

Other Comments by MPhil

2508. Comment #163758 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 1:57 am

 avatarComment #163749 by thisisme

I hope he doesn't mind me commenting, but MPhil (and others) isn't commenting as an atheist, but as a philosopher. You can't just make up philosophy and fiddle about with words in order to back up the concept of God.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2509. Comment #163760 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 2:09 am

 avatarSteve,

you know me well enough my friend... I never mind you commenting :)
_________________________
@all:
There are serious philosophical attempts to back up theism - like Plantinga's modal ontological argument or the cosmological argument.

They have been shot down - but they are to be taken serious and aside from the fact that they are wrong, methodologically good philosophy....
but what we get to read on here mostly is not, and Steve's criticism is entirely appropriate.

Other Comments by MPhil

2510. Comment #163764 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 2:15 am

 avatarComment #163760 by MPhil

I am following epeeists advice and going on the attack....

Your arguments are, of course, solid. It doesn't matter what you personally believe - the arguments have to be addressed!

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2511. Comment #163765 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 2:21 am

 avatar
the arguments have to be addressed!

Assuming you mean that thisisme and others have to address the arguments I forwarded - I agree...

They have to be addressed, but not simply by stating

"Well, I don't think they're right because of [insert argument which is shot down by mine - ...to which this is the reply]"

Other Comments by MPhil

2512. Comment #163766 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:21 am

 avatarSteve-

It doesn't matter what you personally believe - the arguments have to be addressed!


Perhaps, though, some arguments (such as the "if we evolved from apes why are there still apes" brilliance) could be safely ignored in favour of more productive conversations.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2513. Comment #163768 by mikejswalker on April 19, 2008 at 2:24 am

Cordura's baby must be onto dessert at least!!??

Other Comments by mikejswalker

2514. Comment #163769 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 2:26 am

 avatar
"Well, I don't think they're right because of [insert argument which is shot down by mine - ...to which this is the reply]"


You have basically summed up here the entire contents of "The Dawkins Letters" by David Robertson :)
e.g.
Dawkins: Allow me to give the Ultimate 747 argument.
Robertson: The unverse is so complex it needs a creator.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2515. Comment #163770 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:27 am

 avatarMikejswalker-

the baby still has to be burped. That could take at least six days. Then on the seventh day she'll rest.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2516. Comment #163774 by clodhopper on April 19, 2008 at 2:43 am

 avatarSeems to me Intelligent Design cannot be science because it doesn't really study anything. It's more of an idea.

I am puzzled why the adjective 'intelligent' has to be used in front of design at all?

Bah. ID just falls down all over the place. Do the IDers somehow feel their hidden agenda is opaque to our eyes?

Other Comments by clodhopper

2517. Comment #163776 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 2:47 am

 avatar
Perhaps, though, some arguments (such as the "if we evolved from apes why are there still apes" brilliance) could be safely ignored in favour of more productive conversations.


You know what puzzles me? If we came from the sea... why are there still fish? And, are the current attempts by fishermen to wipe out cod and other tasty species part of nature's plan to fix this evolutionary mistake?

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2518. Comment #163778 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:50 am

 avatarSteve-

first fish, then bacteria.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2519. Comment #163779 by Paula Kirby on April 19, 2008 at 2:51 am

 avatar
Steve Zara: You know what puzzles me? If we came from the sea... why are there still fish?
And if we came from dust, why do I still have to go round with a bloody vacuum cleaner twice a week?

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

2520. Comment #163781 by Roland_F on April 19, 2008 at 2:55 am

2408. Comment #163418 by cordura5
"A Case For Christ" by Lee Strobel, a former died-in-the-wool atheist journalist. *****I DARE you to read them.***** It drastically changed my outlook on things

A nice rebuttal link was posted just 2 posts later:
http://www.bidstrup.com/apologetics.htm

And cordura5 what on earth has evolution by natural selection to do with some theist propaganda written from a hard core fundamentalist Christian (allegedly former heathen) about claiming the self contradicting, unproven and wrong New Testament stories to be reality in "A Case For Christ" ?

I was like you, but after reading them, I just couldn't rationalize my former beliefs

Maybe you deep inside whish to grow up and to be like us grownups, and throw your childish believes of Santa Claus, Tooth fairy, prophet Jonas traveling in the stomach of a sea monster, Jesus walking on water, Snow white and the 7 dwarfs and the like just into the trashcan of childish myth.

And of course Hit and run : it's in the middle of the night, I have to work, the baby is crying etc..

Why have the theist raiding party directed here from the lying betraying distorting copyright infringing trash movie 'Expelled' nothing better up their sleeves than this band of posters propagating their own incredulity ?
Just to confirm the perception of atheist talking down to you uninformed wishful thinking apologists, who showed up here posting without any real substance and without the slightest proof of their God interpretation.

Other Comments by Roland_F

2521. Comment #163782 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:56 am

 avatarPaula-

a more important question for you is this: if women came from a man's rib, then why do they still have skeletons?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2522. Comment #163783 by Geoff on April 19, 2008 at 2:57 am

 avatarApes, fish, dust, bacteria...what are you lot on about?

I thought it was established by now that we came from Kiwi fruit? Or penguins...or something..I lost track...

Other Comments by Geoff

2523. Comment #163786 by Roland_F on April 19, 2008 at 3:04 am

2525. Comment #163783 by Geoff
thought it was established by now that we came from Kiwi fruit? Or penguins...

I think Epeeist and Al R. are worshipping the nearly extinct flightless KIWI bird (not fruit).

Other Comments by Roland_F

2524. Comment #163788 by Goldy on April 19, 2008 at 3:07 am

And if we came from dust, why do I still have to go round with a bloody vacuum cleaner twice a week?

Sounds like you're falling apart, Paula ;-) Coat self in varnish, works wonders... (ducks to avoid missile)
a more important question for you is this: if women came from a man's rib, then why do they still have skeletons?
And where did that Y chromosome go?

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2525. Comment #163789 by rod-the-farmer on April 19, 2008 at 3:09 am

 avatarOn ABC News web site today, there was a story about a xian school founder and possibly indecent proposal made to a parent of a child. Digging into the story, there was a link to a link to the following, a story about the Ted Haggard scandal a while ago. At the very END of this clip was an interview with Joyce Meyer, a prominent televangelist. Very interesting to watch. She blinks constantly. I seem to remember that excessive blinking is possibly symptomatic of guilt. Lying for jebus ?


http://abcnews.go.com/Video/playerIndex?id=2631461

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2526. Comment #163791 by Goldy on April 19, 2008 at 3:15 am

I now understand why Darwinist don't agree with ID, atheist don't believe in God. That's simple enough to explain. To bad as a scientist you can't explain how life started. That would give a little validity to your 'Theory', that is, it is only a theory and NOT a proven fact. I do have one question though, if human DNA is really ape DNA that has evolved, how come there are still apes on the planet?

Some more evolved than others, eh? Wonder if he fell on his head when someone kicked his tree...

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2527. Comment #163797 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 3:51 am

 avatarComment #163418 by cordura5

I was going to respond to this post relatively nicely and at length, but there is no point. All the answers are available. This is just one of those "scientists must be wrong because they keep changing their minds" arguments.

If you are going to say that science can't answer questions of evolution, you had better come up with some good alternatives. God wishing things into existence isn't good enough.

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2528. Comment #163798 by black wolf on April 19, 2008 at 3:54 am

 avatarMaybe everyone posting on the web to respond to creationists should use a cut/paste answer sheet for their ever unchangingly stupid claims and rhetorical questions.
Containing something like: There. Are. Still. Apes. Because. Apes. Have. Been. Able. To. Survive. And. Evolve. Along. With. Us.
Saves time, since we know exactly what to expect by now.
With some creotards, counter-questioning is effective. They are accustomed to not answering questions, and asking rhetorical questions without actually being ready to accept any answer. If God created mankind from dust, why is there still dust? If Jesus actually healed the leper, why does leprosy still exist?
Dishonest rhetorical questions deserve nonsensical return questions.

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2529. Comment #163799 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 4:14 am

 avatar
With some creotards, counter-questioning is effective.


Love the name creotard. It sums them up so nicely. Not a single piece of evidence amongst them, yet they are so sure we are wrong. Creationist, thy name is spacktard.

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2530. Comment #163801 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 4:28 am

cordura5
(Actually, the lemmings purposefully jumping off cliffs is an untrue story. But I will save that for another time.)
You twat. Do you realise you are actually a bit stupid? This site is full of intelligent and interested scientific people, and you think you can tease us by exploding a myth that is well known to be one. How can you think we won't know the truth of the lemmings story?

I measure that at 0.2 Bergsons.

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2531. Comment #163811 by pacman71192 on April 19, 2008 at 5:13 am

As for bacterial reistance, these adaptations are in fact evidence for change over time, but not the kind that would change a microbe into a man. All examples of bacterial resistance are of microevolution, i.e change witin its own kind, Take staphylococcus for instance. When it becomes resistant to an antibiotic it remains staphylococcus and doesn't become a different kind of bacterium altogether. It remains staphylococcus.

When we take a closer look at how bacteria become resistant to a partiicular treatment, we find something very interesting. Just like in humans, information on how bacteria grow and survive is stored in the bacterial DNA. Therefore, if any complex change is to take place to turn an organism from one kind to another "more complex" kind, it must add new information to that kind's, i.e organism's, DNA. That is not what we observe taking place in bacteria at all. New information is never created. Existing information may modified, lost or even exchanged between bacteria, but never created.

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2532. Comment #163814 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 5:20 am

 avatarComment #163811 by pacman71192
i.e change witin its own kind


Oh dear. "Kind". Creationist talk.

Existing information may modified, lost or even exchanged between bacteria, but never created.


Please explain then how bacteria evolve resistance to man-made antibiotics. That is new information.

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2533. Comment #163815 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 5:27 am

 avatarpacman71192,

If you don't accept Darwinian evolution by Natural Selection, can you please explain the purpose of:

1. Your appendix
2. The blind spot in your eye(s)
3. Your cocycx (tailbone)

All of these are easily explained through Darwinian evolution. Do you actually think these 3 examples were somehow "designed"??

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2534. Comment #163816 by pacman71192 on April 19, 2008 at 5:28 am

Tyler Durden

Yep

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2535. Comment #163817 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 5:37 am

Yep
Devastating.

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2536. Comment #163818 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 5:37 am

 avatarpacman71192,

And what was your appendix "designed" for? What purpose does it hold for you today?

Why does your eye have a blind spot?

Why would you, as a "designed" human being, have a remnant of a tailbone?

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2537. Comment #163819 by phil rimmer on April 19, 2008 at 5:42 am

 avatarIts not so much that people want to shoehorn their God into a particular gap that pisses me off. Its that they want to smash a whole bunch of real knowledge out of the way to make a Nice Big Gap.

Pacman, Vandal!

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2538. Comment #163820 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 5:46 am

 avatarpacman71192

Could you please answer my previous question about bacteria dealing with man-made antibiotics, and if you are going to say that there is design, could you please say how the design is implemented.

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2539. Comment #163821 by pacman71192 on April 19, 2008 at 5:49 am

All that is within a living cell could not be placed ther by chance.

A million page book would be required to contain all the DNA coding contained in one mammalian cell. "... about 2000mpages of this type would be required to show the nucleotide sequence for the DNA in the chromosome of a typical single-cell bacterium; roughly a million pages would be needed to similarly display the genetic code embodied in DNA molecules that make up chromosomes of a typical mammalian cell." LL Cohen, Darwin Was Wrong A Study in Probabilities, (1984)

The probability of complex molecules is similar for human proteins. The probabilities of biological evolution of each one (over 200,000) are the same as thoseagainst a random solution of a Rubik's cube (less than 1 chance in one billion).

These are roughly the same as you could give to the idea of just one of our body's proteins having evolved randomly, by chance. However, we use about 200,00 types of protein in our cells. If the odds against random creation of one protein are the same as those against a random solution of a Rubik's cube, then the odds against a random creation of 200,000 are immensely vast.

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2540. Comment #163822 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 5:50 am

 avatar
could you please say how the design is implemented.
Steve,

That's easy peasy: goddidit :)

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2541. Comment #163823 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 5:53 am

 avatarComment #163821 by pacman71192
All that is within a living cell could not be placed ther by chance.
Who said it was chance?

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2542. Comment #163824 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 5:53 am

All that is within a living cell could not be placed ther by chance.
Here we go.

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2543. Comment #163825 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 5:56 am

Professor Dawkins, the desperation you are showing, in trying to discredit this documentary, reminds me of a child scraping the bottom of a pudding pot. The points made are about as devoid of meaningful substance as the fossil record is of transitional fossils. The science academy emperor has no clothes and is desperate.

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2544. Comment #163826 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 5:56 am

 avatar
All that is within a living cell could not be placed ther by chance


That's right. Chance was not involved. I did it.

Perhaps you can answer Steve's question now? Here it is again for you:

Please explain then how bacteria evolve resistance to man-made antibiotics. That is new information


We're waiting.

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2545. Comment #163830 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 6:04 am

 avatarComment #163822 by Tyler Durden

I want details: which angels were assigned to the task, and how long they took.

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2546. Comment #163831 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 6:05 am

Remnant
The points made are about as devoid of meaningful substance as the fossil record is of transitional fossils.
Perhaps you'd like to show Richard the way and add some substance to your argument?

Pick one of the points Richard has made and refute it.

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2547. Comment #163832 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 6:06 am

 avatarComment #163825 by Remnant

The documentary is discredited because it promotes intelligent design as if it was a scientific theory. If you feel this view has merit, please supply some testable hypothesis based on ID.

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2548. Comment #163833 by Tyler Durden on April 19, 2008 at 6:07 am

 avatarComment #163825 by Remnant
The points made are about as devoid of meaningful substance as the fossil record is of transitional fossils.
So you've never read anything on Tiktallik or Archaeopteryx:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tiktallik

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeopteryx

What about Paleothyris, Morganucodon, Mammalodon or even Australopithecus?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_transitional_fossils

http://www.palaeos.com/Vertebrates/Units/140Sarcopterygii/140.000.html

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2549. Comment #163838 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 6:37 am

 avatar
As for bacterial reistance, these adaptations are in fact evidence for change over time,


In other words evolution The very thing you sweepingly said has never been observed and does not happen does not happen!

but not the kind that would change a microbe into a man.


Are you honestly expecting a microbe to become a human in one step?

When it becomes resistant to an antibiotic it remains staphylococcus and doesn't become a different kind of bacterium altogether. It remains staphylococcus.


It is a slightly different Staphylococcus - accumulate enough changes or significant speciating changes and it slowly becomes something else.

I also provided some links to 4 finned whales and toothed chickens the other day. Perhaps you missed it?

There are documented cases of multicellularity evolving in species of single celled algae in the presence of predatory rotifers. I dont know anything of the genetics of it though, but in terms of whether large phenotypic changes can occur suddenly or not, we dont need a mechanism.
There are also dolphins with 4 flippers. http://www.smh.com.au/news/science/fourfinned-dolphin-an-evolutionary-throwback/2006/11/05/1162661544728.html
Or chickens producing teeth http://www.sciam.com/article.cfm?id=mutant-chicken-grows-alli

Again, the mechanism is not important, these changes can and do happen. When a cretinist talks of increased information, he is using a straw man as he somehow thinks a functional camera eye should evolve in one generation by accident. As with some examples I have given earlier (AbdA) increased "information" can also reduce complexity - but still alter body plans.
It is a load of bollocks which keeps getting repeated. They seem to think that if there is no evidence for incresed information, that some how invalidates macro evolution. It is a clear misunderstanding of how evolution works(although I suspect many dont want to understand).
At best all that could be said is that there is gap in our knowlegde - that invalidates nothing.
However, there is no gap. I doubt any of the fundies will read this, but here are some known mechanisms.

Genome duplication
Pseudogene generation
convertion of processed pseudogenes
Gene duplication
Duplication and transposition
Horizontal gene transfer
Nucleotide insertion
Crossover errors at meiosis
Retroviral insertion.

http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2394,Lying-for-Jesus,Richard-Dawkins,page45#163117



Therefore, if any complex change is to take place to turn an organism from one kind to another "more complex" kind, it must add new information to that kind's, i.e organism's, DNA


How does it? Where is your evidence? I can provide evidence that shows reducing content can build more comlex body plans - Shortening the Alx4 gene increases the complexity of mammals. AbdA mutations increase appendage number in insects - You need to get your info from somewhere other than AIG or CMI. I Also mentioned some observed mechanisms of information increase above.

That is not what we observe taking place in bacteria at all. New information is never created. Existing information may modified, lost or even exchanged between bacteria, but never created.


Now you are just getting confused. Some of these resistence genes in bacteria are the result of aquiring new DNA and it doesn't matter where it comes from, it is still new DNA, so it still satisfies the criteria of your strawman of how evolution works.

I still see absolutly no evidence of creationism from you, or whether god made small pox.

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2550. Comment #163839 by keith on April 19, 2008 at 6:39 am

 avatarRemnant,
Professor Dawkins, the desperation you are showing, in trying to discredit this documentary, reminds me of a child scraping the bottom of a pudding pot.

Er, right. So a child scraping the bottom of a pudding pot is a 'desperate' child, right? At the times that I find myself picturing a child scraping the bottom of a pudding pot, which I confess aren't often, I imagine he is either contented, or excited, or perhaps even craving for more pudding, but 'desperate'? It's not a word that is immediately conjured up by the image.

Or could it be that you were thinking of 'scraping the bottom of the barrel' but you wanted to throw in an extra insult? So you hit upon the idea of likening a respected adult professor to a child. Yes, that should do nicely! You then bolted the insult onto the idiom and ended up with...Well, an image that, to be honest, didn't really work. Was that it?

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