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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 2601 - 2650 of 9332 |

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2601. Comment #163959 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 11:15 am

 avatarDiacanu,

In another era, he would've been frigging executed.


err... you are aware that he was legally charged with immoral behaviour (homosexuality) and faced a long prison sentence (which, as a homosexual in that days certainly made it even more unbearable)... or an injection of drugs that would have essentially crippled his sexuality, his libido and would have rendered him sterile.


He chose an apple injected with poison - suicide.

(If you've read TGD, you know that)

In my opinion there is little difference between that and burning him on the stake.

Other Comments by MPhil

2602. Comment #163961 by Diacanu on April 19, 2008 at 11:20 am

 avatarMPhil-

Ah, you're right, forgot that.
Score another point for religion fucking up the human species.

Other Comments by Diacanu

2603. Comment #163963 by Diacanu on April 19, 2008 at 11:25 am

 avatarLogicel-


However, on a Devil's Advocate level, one can say that the IDiots are upset because we are not using our God-given talents and abilities to perceive God.


See, I never got why that's a religiot's fucking business.
If I'm on the outs with God, and he were real, then that'd be between me and God.

It's as if they take on the traits of their God, and given that he's a jealous asshole God, they become jealous assholes on his behalf, and can't stand to see you with a harlot God, or with scientific truth, which they see as another harlot God in their warped minds.

Hey, religiots, if a guy is into harlot Gods, he's not into you, move on.

Other Comments by Diacanu

2604. Comment #163966 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 11:33 am

RD.net laws of theistic interaction.
I really have to go.
Law #1: A theist will always have something pressing to do immediately after presenting a tired and weak theistic proposition.
Okay, one final post...
Law #2: Any theist who claims that they have better things to do, really don't.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

2605. Comment #163968 by Quine on April 19, 2008 at 11:35 am

 avatarSo pacman71192, while you are taking a mental trip into probability, let us look at just one of the probabilistic issues of your existence i.e. paternal cell probability. I am just going to do a very rough order of magnitude calculation; men produce from 108 to 109 sperm cells per day, for at least 30 years or about 104 days. Taking the lower end of sperm production to account for decrease with age, this is 108 X 104 = 1012 total sperm cells to choose one of to make you.

Of course, your father had to have had a father, so if we look at your paternal cell probability from back a generation we get one in 1012 X 1012 = 1024, but if we were going back 100 generations (about 2000 years), that probability drops to one in 101200. I note that you listed a probability of one in 1049 as past the realm of possibility, therefore your own standard makes you impossible.

I suggest you get a copy of Climbing Mount Improbable and do some reading about the fallacy of retrospective probability.

Other Comments by Quine

2606. Comment #163970 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 11:41 am

"The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero."- Ilya Prigogine (Chemist-Physicist) Recipient of two Nobel Prizes in chemistry I. Prigogine, N. Gregair, A. Babbyabtz, Physics Today 25, pp. 23-28

Other Comments by Remnant

2607. Comment #163973 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 11:44 am

 avatarComment #163970 by Remnant

They aren't generated by accident, but by natural selection.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2608. Comment #163974 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 11:45 am

 avatarComment #163970 by Remnant
"The statistical probability that organic structures and the most precisely harmonized reactions that typify living organisms would be generated by accident, is zero."-

So?

Look - what we really want to know is what make Intelligent Design science? If it is science the its got to predict stuff. If it predicts stuff then we can test it and possibly show its predictions are false.

So here it is again - give us some concrete examples of what ID predicts.

Other Comments by epeeist

2609. Comment #163976 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 11:46 am

"I find it quite improbable that such order came out of chaos. There has to be some organizing principle. God to me is a mystery but is the explanation for the miracle of existence, why there is something instead of nothing."
- Alan Sandage (winner of the Crawford prize in astronomy)Willford, J.N. March 12, 1991. Sizing up the Cosmos: An Astronomers Quest. New York Times, p. B9.

Other Comments by Remnant

2610. Comment #163977 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 11:47 am

"Astronomy leads us to a unique event, a universe which was created out of nothing, one with the very delicate balance needed to provide exactly the conditions required to permit life, and one which has an underlying (one might say 'supernatural') plan."- Arno Penzias (Nobel prize in physics)
Margenau, H and R.A. Varghese, ed. 1992. Cosmos, Bios, and Theos. La Salle, IL, Open Court, p. 83.

Other Comments by Remnant

2611. Comment #163978 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 11:48 am

"This is an exceedingly strange development, unexpected by all but the theologians. They have always accepted the word of the Bible: In the beginning God created heaven and earth... [But] for the scientist who has lived by his faith in the power of reason, the story ends like a bad dream. He has scaled the mountains of ignorance; he is about to conquer the highest peak; [and] as he pulls himself over the final rock, he is greeted by a band of theologians who have been sitting there for centuries."
- Robert Jastrow (God and the Astronomers [New York: W.W. Norton and Co., 1978], 116. Professor Jastrow was the founder of NASA's Goddard Institute, now director of the Mount Wilson

Other Comments by Remnant

2612. Comment #163981 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 11:53 am

Now we come to the real reason atheists make a "volitional choice" to ignore the mountains of evidence for the truth of Christianity and cling desperately to the myths of their FAITH in secular humanism/naturalism.

"I had motives for not wanting the world to have meaning; consequently assumed that it had none, and was able without any difficulty to find satisfying reasons for this assumption ... For myself, as no doubt, for most of my contemporaries, the philosophy of meaninglessness was essentially an instrument of liberation. The liberation we desired was simultaneous liberation from a certain political and economic system, and liberation from a certain system of morality. We objected to the morality because it interfered with our sexual freedom."(REPORT, June 1966. "Confession of Professed Atheist," A. Huxley)

Other Comments by Remnant

2613. Comment #163982 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 11:54 am

 avatarComment #163978 by Remnant

You can quote all you like, but we could quote in return a thousand papers for every one of yours. I suggest you answer Epeeist's question.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2614. Comment #163983 by Bonzai on April 19, 2008 at 11:55 am

The private musings of scientists are just their personal opinions, not science. All these quotes appeal to emotion, rather than any sound argument.

Quit spamming the thread, you idiot.

Other Comments by Bonzai

2615. Comment #163984 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 11:59 am

 avatarComment #163976 by Remnant and Comment #163981 by Remnant and Comment #163981 by Remnant

To be absolutely blunt about it I don't give a flying fuck about your quote mining. As Steve says we can return data a hundred fold.

What makes ID science, what predictions does it make, what tests have been made on these predictions?

Other Comments by epeeist

2616. Comment #163985 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 11:59 am

 avatarConcerning "number 10"...

... I really think it is unjustified to claim that everyone who is disagreeing with us (even the total idiots) cannot be sincere in saying that they really have to leave... I'm sure that sometimes they really don't and just want to hit-and-run, but we cannot assume that this is always the case.

Remnant,

1.Natural selection is non-random

2. "Fine-tuning" is something that can be and should be investigated - but lack of knowledge does not warrant postulating a tuner, much less identifying that mechanism (or even entity, if that is at all possible) that is responsible for the value of the fundamental constants with the mythical figure of your choice!

Other Comments by MPhil

2617. Comment #163986 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 12:02 pm

 avatarRemnant,
No one is interested in the argument from authority fallacy. How about you actually prouce some evidence - we can - oh look, an archaeopteryx - oh look, telomere sequences inside chromosome 2 - oh look fossilised ofactory genes - oh look, pakicetus exactly where you would expect to find it - both spatially and temporally. So, forget the fact that you personally just cant come to terms with probability arguments based on an misunderstanding/misrepresentation of evolution, prvide some evidence for creation in a scientific manner.

PS, my muslim mate says christianity is wrong - think about why you dont accept this argument from authority

Other Comments by BillySands

2618. Comment #163988 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Re: Comment #163973 by Steve Zara

"They aren't generated by accident, but by natural selection."

Sorry Steve, natural selection is not a cause. It can be considered a filter that excludes or includes existing, caused traits. It has no creative power to cause anything.

Sorry no cigar for that rudimentary and desperate claim.

Other Comments by Remnant

2619. Comment #163991 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 12:08 pm

 avatarRemnant - are you even reading the posts on here?

Genes mutate randomly, non-teleologically - thus producing the material from which natural selection filters out those genes that make its vessel (organisms) more capable of producing surviving offspring than rival genes.

It's not that hard to comprehend.

"rudimentary and desperate"? - You've got to be kidding!

Other Comments by MPhil

2620. Comment #163992 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 12:09 pm

 avatarComment #163988 by Remnant

Come on, stop prevaricating and answer some questions.

What is it that makes ID science? You haven't told us. You haven't told us of any predictions that it makes or any crucial tests it has undergone. You haven't told us whether it passed those tests.

Answer, or just be considered yet another no-nothing creotard.

Other Comments by epeeist

2621. Comment #163993 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 12:09 pm

 avatarRemnant,
Do you deny natural selection as a mens of non randomly generating change?

Only bother answering if you are willing to provide some scientific proof for creationism, cos I wont bother replying if you dont. All you creationists do by refusing to provide testable evidence is confirm what we already know. ID/creationism is not science

Other Comments by BillySands

2622. Comment #163994 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 12:10 pm

Remnant
Sorry Steve, natural selection is not a cause. It can be considered a filter that excludes or includes existing, caused traits. It has no creative power to cause anything.
It is of course coupled with random mutation. Don't be silly.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

2623. Comment #163995 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 12:12 pm

Re: Comment #163983 by Bonzai

You, "The private musings of scientists are just their personal opinions, not science. All these quotes appeal to emotion, rather than any sound argument."

Really, is that your "private musing".

You, "Quit spamming the thread, you idiot."

Four things you can always count on when dealing with atheists.

1. a filthy mouth

2. Censorship of dissenting thought.

3. An abundance of false premises and self-defeating statements.

4. a blind faith UNSUPPORTED BY ANY EVIDENCE.

Thanks for the demonstration of all four.

Other Comments by Remnant

2624. Comment #163999 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 12:16 pm

 avatarLooks like remnant has given up on evidence and started throwing general insults. Living up to creotard ideal.

Offend
Lie
provide no evidence
lie some more
avoid the issue
quote mine
be rude
ignore question
get pwned and throw about more insults

Other Comments by BillySands

2625. Comment #164000 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 12:17 pm

 avatarComment #163988 by Remnant

Such wilful ignorance is troublesome. We have seen the power of selection from random variation not just in nature, but in the laboratory, and even in computer explorations of evolution.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2626. Comment #164002 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 12:19 pm

 avatar

4. a blind faith UNSUPPORTED BY ANY EVIDENCE.


Good thing I had just put down my drink.... otherwise I would have had to clean my monitor.

Oh really? ...and a supposed metaphysical entity which is at the same time three entities, specifically a relation between paternal parent and male offspring and a quote "ghost", which somehow produces visible flames over peoples heads, an entity that has oh so many attributes... which cannot be proven to exist, whose attributes are occasionally logically impossible and where neither the existence nor ANY attribution of ANY properties can even be subjected to tests...

and mostly

of whom you know (supposedly) through a book whose authority you accept before looking into the evidence for that (if at all), and in the existence of which you believe (because you're being told to) before even being old enough to think about the matter rationally - much less making up your mind only when you have examined the evidence for it...

... that is of course not at all "blind faith UNSUPPORTED BY ANY EVIDENCE"...


I think irate is due now...

Other Comments by MPhil

2627. Comment #164003 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Remnant
1. a filthy mouth

2. Censorship of dissenting thought.

3. An abundance of false premises and self-defeating statements.

4. a blind faith UNSUPPORTED BY ANY EVIDENCE.
1. Sure, but nothing as bad as the disgusting images of hell some preachers frighten children with.

2. Here? Are you fucking joking? This site is virtually uncensored, unlike most theist sites, which are heavily moderated.

3. But you do not respond to the rational arguments put to you.

4. Ha! Good one. I see what you have done there.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

2628. Comment #164004 by Bonzai on April 19, 2008 at 12:19 pm

Really, is that your "private musing".


Oh, very smart. My "musing" is based solidly on evidence, which is your spam.

Four things you can always count on when dealing with atheists.

1. a filthy mouth

2. Censorship of dissenting thought.

3. An abundance of false premises and self-defeating statements.

4. a blind faith UNSUPPORTED BY ANY EVIDENCE.


1. What is so filthy about calling you an idiot? Would a fool sound better?

2. I see no evidence of any "thought" being expressed by your cut and paste spams.

3. Such as?

4. Why don't YOU TRY TO ANSWER SOME QUESTIONS
for a change, as others have been telling you?

Other Comments by Bonzai

2629. Comment #164005 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 12:20 pm

Re: Comment #163986 by BillySands

You, "No one is interested in the argument from authority fallacy."

Really, is that your argument from authority?

Rather that discuss you adult fairy tales which are nothing more than speculations, why don't you show me just one living transitional creature.

You, "PS, my muslim mate says christianity is wrong - think about why you dont accept this argument from authority"

Your muslim mate has the right and free will to believe whatever he wants, act accordingly, and receive the fate he chooses, and so do you.

Other Comments by Remnant

2630. Comment #164006 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 12:23 pm

Remnant
Your muslim mate has the right and free will to believe whatever he wants, act accordingly, and receive the fate he chooses, and so do you.
I'm sorry, that was not BillySands' point: who is right?

I believe that 2 and 2 = 5. Should you disagree with me?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

2631. Comment #164007 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 12:25 pm

 avatarComment #164005 by Remnant
Rather that discuss you adult fairy tales which are nothing more than speculations, why don't you show me just one living transitional creature.


Certainly. Here is Peripatus

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripatus

It is transitional between annelid worms and arthropods.

Education is fun, isn't it? You can discover something new when you least expect it.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2632. Comment #164009 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 12:27 pm

Re: 2627. Comment #163999 by BillySands

You, "Looks like remnant has given up on evidence and started throwing general insults. Living up to creotard ideal.

Offend
Lie
provide no evidence
lie some more
avoid the issue
quote mine
be rude
ignore question
get pwned and throw about more insults"

Pardon me, but it seems that you are the one that is lying now. I have not used profanity, called anyone a name, or made any sort of personal attack. Why do you have to resort to that?

Other Comments by Remnant

2633. Comment #164010 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 12:29 pm

 avatar
Really, is that your argument from authority?


That is my observation - not authority! Lets put it to the test - speak up anyone he who is interested in his argument from authority

Rather that discuss you adult fairy tales which are nothing more than speculations, why don't you show me just one living transitional creature.


This is one of your most ignorant questions yet. To be transitional, there must be something that it has changed into - that would have to be something in the future and not existing in the present

Your muslim mate has the right and free will to believe whatever he wants, act accordingly, and receive the fate he chooses, and so do you.


Why cant you actually read? I askes why you did not accept his authority when he says christianity is wrong?

Last chance now, provide your evidence

Other Comments by BillySands

2634. Comment #164012 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 12:31 pm

 avatar... I feel ignored... :(


*evilgrin*

Other Comments by MPhil

2635. Comment #164013 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 12:32 pm

 avatar
Pardon me, but it seems that you are the one that is lying now. I have not used profanity, called anyone a name, or made any sort of personal attack. Why do you have to resort to that?



I did not say that you had used profanities - why did you lie and say I did?

Other Comments by BillySands

2636. Comment #164014 by The Reverend Dark on April 19, 2008 at 12:32 pm

 avatarRemnant thus spewed.


Rather that discuss you adult fairy tales which are nothing more than speculations, why don't you show me just one living transitional creature.


Once more your ignorance rears up like a bishop's wang in the Altar boy's dressing room.

All forms are transitional. You are transitional. I am transitional. My dog is transitional. Asking for a modern 'transitional' akin to Tikktaalik is ignorance writ large, as there is not pre-determined destination form. Yet you still bray on waggling your inanity - all pink and naked - in front of this forum.

If you are looking for living examples of speciation, then you can find numerous examples. Or rather you could if you were not an ignorant bell-end. These exist in both the plant and animal kingdoms; and have been observed under laboratory environments (In flies, flour beetles, mosquitos and many others.)

In mammals you can find speciciation in house mice on Madeira (multiple instances.)

So do you actually have any arguments or just the ignorant braying of your backside?

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

2637. Comment #164015 by Bonzai on April 19, 2008 at 12:32 pm

I have not used profanity, called anyone a name, or made any sort of personal attack..


And you have not answer the questions that are put to you except repeating the questions in rhetorical "answers" like a bot. Why don't you answer epeeist's questions for a start.

What is it that makes ID science? You haven't told us. You haven't told us of any predictions that it makes or any crucial tests it has undergone. You haven't told us whether it passed those tests.

Other Comments by Bonzai

2638. Comment #164016 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 12:32 pm

 avatarCome on Remnant - answer the questions.

What is it that make Intelligent Design (look, I even capitalised it for you) science? Give us some clues as to what it predicts, show us where these predictions have been tested, show us the results of the tests.

Stop procrastinating. We want to know, we really want to know. Why is intelligent design a better theory than the one we currently have?

Other Comments by epeeist

2639. Comment #164020 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 12:34 pm

 avatar
Asking for a modern 'transitional' akin to Tikktaalik is ignorance writ large, as there is not pre-determined destination form.


Erm.... I did actually show one a few posts ago. There are some very rare examples where a species has hardly changed in hundreds of millions of years, and so the intermediate form can still be seen. Sorry for being awkward :)

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2640. Comment #164022 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 12:36 pm

Comment #164007 by Steve Zara

You, "Certainly. Here is Peripatus"

"http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Peripatus:

Wikipedia as a science source?" How funny and quaint! you are not a change agent (schoolteacher) , in one of the public indoctrination centers are you? Wikipedia as a source in a science discussion, that's classic.

You, "It is transitional between annelid worms and arthropods."

From your "science source"

"It is said to be a living fossil because it has been unchanged for approximately 570 million years." no where in your "science source did it even allege it is an example of a living transitional creature.

You, "Education is fun, isn't it? You can discover something new when you least expect it."

Yes, and perhaps you should finally decide to start that journey.

Well, I have to run for now. I am going to head out and enjoy God's creation for a bit.

Other Comments by Remnant

2641. Comment #164024 by The Reverend Dark on April 19, 2008 at 12:37 pm

 avatarI stand humbly corrected Steve, and the only thing I can offer in my defence is that I was alluding to the pivotal transitionals - reptile/bird, lobed fish\tetrapod, etc.

I was under the impression that remnant was looking for a Kirk Cameron spawned Croco-duck or similar chimera.

I'll just go beat my head until forgiven,
Shayne

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

2642. Comment #164025 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 12:38 pm

 avatar
And you have not answer the questions that are put to you except repeating the questions in rhetorical "answers" like a bot. Why don't you answer epeeist's questions for a start.


Is it possible that remnant is not a real person? Amazing, non intelligence can pass for a creationist and fool us all

Other Comments by BillySands

2643. Comment #164026 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 12:39 pm

 avatarComment #164022 by Remnant

No, wikipedia is not the source of that. There was a recent review of evolutionary theory in New Scientist, a highly reputable publication. Peripatus was mentioned there. However, that publication isn't free, so for convenience I pointed to wikipedia. You can look up the archives of New Scientist and research Peripatus any time you like.

Strange how you have to run when having asked for clear evidence that contradicts your beliefs, it is supplied.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2644. Comment #164027 by The Reverend Dark on April 19, 2008 at 12:39 pm

 avatarHey remnant.

Did you check the peer-published paper the Wiki article cites?

http://www.ots.ac.cr/tropiweb/attachments/onicof/onynew99/onyhabit.htm

Astounding.
The Reverend Shayne Dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

2645. Comment #164028 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 12:40 pm

 avatarRemnant, Why did you lie? Is this ethical? Why should we believe anything you should say now?

Other Comments by BillySands

2646. Comment #164029 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 12:41 pm

 avatarComment #164022 by Remnant

Well, I have to run for now. I am going to head out and enjoy God's creation for a bit.
Time of death 1936 UTC. Cause, "I have to run now" complicated by "I am unable to answer any of the questions you have asked".

Other Comments by epeeist

2647. Comment #164030 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 12:41 pm

 avatarComment #164027 by The Reverend Dark

It is a lovely creature, and has been known about for some time, but (as I understand) its evolutionary significance has only recently been realised.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2648. Comment #164031 by Star Spangled Eagle on April 19, 2008 at 12:43 pm

 avatarYou gentlemen are wasting your time. This one does not wish at all to truly understand what he's talking about or what you're saying to him. He only wants to claim that you're wrong. He doesn't want a discussion, he only wants to deny.


Twit:

Expand your horizons sir, you're ignorant beyond words.

Other Comments by Star Spangled Eagle

2649. Comment #164034 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 12:48 pm

 avatarJust come back from a little local tournament where my pupils took one gold and two silvers so I am on a bit of an adrenaline high.

Speaking as your team coach I would like to congratulate you all. Now take a rest, eat a banana and make sure you take plenty of fluids. Put something warm on and don't let your muscles go cold. Active rest, don't forget.

Other Comments by epeeist

2650. Comment #164035 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Comment #164016 by epeeist

"Come on Remnant - answer the questions."

Final answer for today. i want to get out and enjoy God's Creation for a bit.

I am a creationist friend. True science is the search for causes wherever that many lead. Pseudo- science, as defined today by the science academy, is the search for causes to support an atheistic worldview and only that worldview. Psuedo-science is defined to exclude supernatural causes, that is unless it is needed, as in the universe (something) originating from nothing, and lifer originating from non-life.

Why don't you provide the scientific evidence where life has been created from non-life or where something was created from nothing.

Psuedo-science, or as I prefer to call it, bad science, ignores the first principles of knowledge . Things like from nothing comes nothing or everything that begins to exist must have a cause. Bad science does not have the answers for this and never will because they are caused by events outside of our natural world and bad science has excluded, by definition, the possibility of ever exploring that. This was done intentionally to exclude a Creator and is intellectual dishonesty.

Other Comments by Remnant
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