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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 2651 - 2700 of 9332 |

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2651. Comment #164037 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 12:56 pm

 avatarRemnant. Why did you lie?

Other Comments by BillySands

2652. Comment #164038 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 12:58 pm

Remnant
supernatural
Can you explain what you mean by this term?

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

2653. Comment #164040 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 12:59 pm

 avatarComment #164035 by Remnant
This was done intentionally to exclude a Creator and is intellectual dishonesty.


Piffle. All we are after is evidence for a creator. Perhaps you could suggest what such evidence might look like, and how it could be scientifically tested.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2654. Comment #164042 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:00 pm

 avatarCan everyone stop feeding the troll? The more food you give it, the more it vomits out steaming green stinking cut-and-pasted "evidence". It makes the thread look untidy. The "something from nothing" fallacy in his last post and his hurling of insults proves that.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2655. Comment #164043 by Podaar on April 19, 2008 at 1:00 pm

 avatarEagle,

The predictive power of your theory was wonderful to behold!

-- Gregg

Other Comments by Podaar

2656. Comment #164044 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 1:02 pm

 avatar
It makes the thread look untidy.


Peripatus is untidy too. It ejects sticky threads to trap its prey (how appropriate).

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2657. Comment #164046 by phasmagigas on April 19, 2008 at 1:04 pm

 avatar
Pseudo- science, as defined today by the science academy, is the search for causes to support an atheistic worldview and only that worldview. Psuedo-science is defined to exclude supernatural causes, that is unless it is needed, as in the universe (something) originating from nothing, and lifer originating from non-life.



eh????? im not sure thats the definition of pseudoscience. pseudoscience if im not mistaken is bullshit trying to sound scientific when it isnt, like when i rub my soles and my chundraseismic nerves become energised and i feel all syergasmically refracted with my quartz crystals i have under my pillow.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

2658. Comment #164047 by Radesq on April 19, 2008 at 1:04 pm

 avatarWhat can men do against such reckless ignorance?

Other Comments by Radesq

2659. Comment #164048 by Remnant on April 19, 2008 at 1:05 pm

Comment #164028 by BillySands

You, "Remnant, Why did you lie? Is this ethical? Why should we believe anything you should say now?"

Is that you absolute determination? I haven't lied sir, but you seem to have quite a fondness for the practice. Since you believe in naturalism and therefore moral relativism maybe you are having a chemical problem or a synapse or two misfiring. But that's ok,it a "natural thing", right?

It is really funny though how you try to appeal to God's Moral standard of a God that you deny exists. Your behavior violates the law of non contradiction.

In addition, though I did not lie, if someone gained some kind of an advantage over another person by lying, this would be a desirable trait for survival through the filter of "natural selection". According to your worldview, this would be desirable as a survivability trait.

That being said, why are you now arguing against something that would be beneficial under natural selection? The more you talk, the more you show how contradicted your worldview is.

Lying is acceptable under your moralistic world view, even desirable, why would you argue against omething that is desirable under your world view?

Other Comments by Remnant

2660. Comment #164049 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:06 pm

 avatarDef.: Supernatural: above and/or beyond the natural.

The "Supernatural" can per definition never have explanatory value, because for explanation, you need a model of the mechanism which leads to the phenomenon you seek to explain.

Read up on "methodological naturalism".

Even if the supernatural exists, there can per definition never be any evidence for it, because all evidence (what you can look at, investigate etc) is in space-time, and as such natural.

So even if the supernatural should exist, that has nothing to do with science - and for examinations of epistemological (look it up if this is too big a word for you) justification for the assumption of anything supernatural - you will want philosophy.

And concerning that - the answer is pretty clear - for the above reasons. There can never be any evidence for it in the natural world. If we cannot explain something, this does not warrant postulating a supernatural cause. Any science fiction pseudoexplanation is more likely than "magic", because all our senses can pick up is within space-time, and as such cannot warrant inference to something of a different category.

Honestly, the impertinence of you.

Other Comments by MPhil

2661. Comment #164050 by phasmagigas on April 19, 2008 at 1:06 pm

 avatarif feel that scripture is soon to be hurled.

Other Comments by phasmagigas

2662. Comment #164051 by Peacebeuponme on April 19, 2008 at 1:08 pm

I was going to disagree with Quetz about the troll labelling, but then this came along
Since you believe in naturalism and therefore moral relativism
I don't think there is much more that can be done here.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

2663. Comment #164052 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:08 pm

 avatarSteve-

It ejects sticky threads to trap its prey (how appropriate).


I saw something on a wildlife programme that did that. "Life in the Undergrowth" perhaps. Can't remember if it was a slug or a caterpillar.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2664. Comment #164054 by Podaar on April 19, 2008 at 1:13 pm

 avatarComment #164048 by Remnant

Didn't Captain Kirk once kill a computer with this same arguement? er...maybe not.

Other Comments by Podaar

2665. Comment #164055 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:13 pm

 avatarMoral relativism is a fact - the fact the the values held by people are relative to their culture, their religion, and the age in which they live.

Naturalism means no metaphysical entities and as such no metaphysical moral values - but that this doesn't commit the naturalist to having no moral standard - or indeed to the hypothesis that there is no such thing as moral justification is ludicrous. There can even be universally adhered to moral values, and objective requirements for universally shared goals.

Honestly, I get the creeps when theists who know nothing about ethics and metaethics make bold statements and consider themselves experts in these fields...

I usually do not resort to such language - but this is now beyond doubt:

Remnant, you are an idiot!

Other Comments by MPhil

2666. Comment #164058 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 1:17 pm

 avatarComment #164052 by Quetzalcoatl

Even though Nature is awesome, I feel it is only fair to admit that sometimes it is also really gross.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2667. Comment #164059 by clodhopper on April 19, 2008 at 1:19 pm

 avatarremnant "i want to get out and enjoy God's Creation for a bit."

god or no god, it would then be helpful if you would go and learn something about it.

Other Comments by clodhopper

2668. Comment #164060 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:20 pm

 avatarThis might be a slightly mean suggestion:

When we encounter posters that fit all the criteria of a troll, that show no willingness to listen and are instead content to fling about insults and assertions, perhaps we could illustrate the fact with a suitable image. I suggest this one:

http://www.tuckborough.net/images/cavetroll.jpg

Too much?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2669. Comment #164061 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:21 pm

 avatarSteve-

personally, I thought it was quite cool. Perhaps that's because I'm too young to know better. Or weird. Whatever.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2670. Comment #164062 by SRWB on April 19, 2008 at 1:22 pm

Lying is acceptable under your moralistic world view, even desirable,...

To quote Steve Z - piffle! You have no idea what is desirable under our world view. I think I speak for Billy and the others in saying that lying is in no way part of an atheistic worldview, whatever that might be. Most of us would argue that lying is wrong because it makes one untrustworthy and unreliable, and not because it violates your "God's moral standard". But that doesn't mean we don't all do it consciously and sub-consciously.
if someone gained some kind of an advantage over another person by lying, this would be a desirable trait for survival through the filter of "natural selection". According to your worldview, this would be desirable as a survivability trait.

Where did you get this idea? Of course, the irony is that people, even you, probably lie every day for numerous reasons, good and bad, i.e., to avoid hurting feelings, to avoid uncomfortable situations, and even to hide crimes and embarassing situations. So is lying always bad?

Other Comments by SRWB

2671. Comment #164064 by clodhopper on April 19, 2008 at 1:24 pm

 avatarComment #164058 by Steve Zara
I feel it is only fair to admit that sometimes it is also really gross.


Having just cleaned up after a fox got at my hens last night I con only say amen to that. All part of gods plan I suppose though.

Other Comments by clodhopper

2672. Comment #164065 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:24 pm

 avatarQuetz,

that picture is far too frightening/the creature looks to powerful/impressive to fit any of the trolls on here - while not benign they aren't the least bit impressive, although their IQ, as that of the troll, is probably just below room temperature (in degrees celsius mind you :)

Other Comments by MPhil

2673. Comment #164066 by D'Arcy on April 19, 2008 at 1:25 pm

 avatarRemnant (2653 above) contradicts itself in two adjoining sentences:

I am a creationist friend. True science is the search for causes wherever that many lead.


Creationism can never lead to "true science" because the creationists already "know" the answers. "These are the conclusions upon which I shall base my facts" is their method.

They don't actually have anything useful or insightful to say about the real world.

So Remnant, when you wake up, please tell us what you think is the age of the Earth, age of the Sun, age of the universe. If the answer is "All made on the same day", I'm glad you're not my doctor. (Ihope!).

Other Comments by D'Arcy

2674. Comment #164067 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 1:27 pm

 avatar
Is that you absolute determination?

When you say something that is untrue, by definition that is absolutely a lie. So why did you do it?

I am not going down the morality line until you answer your questions and also tell us why you accused me of saying you swore? But I am not appealing to god - you presumably believe lying is wrong - but that is what you did! By definition you lied, I want to know why.

Thought you had gone out. Another lie?

Other Comments by BillySands

2675. Comment #164069 by SRWB on April 19, 2008 at 1:29 pm

Just came back from a trip to Europe. The area I was visiting abounded with rabbits. There I saw a baby rabbit with it's eyes picked out, probably by ravens or other such bird - the remainder of it was virtually untouched! So I suppose that was part of God's plan as well.

Other Comments by SRWB

2676. Comment #164070 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:31 pm

 avatar...better :)

Other Comments by MPhil

2677. Comment #164071 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:31 pm

 avatarMPhil-

as always, your logic leaves me humbled. You are correct. I therefore suggest the following substitute:

http://lashawnbarber.com/images/troll1.gif

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2678. Comment #164072 by alan baylis on April 19, 2008 at 1:33 pm

2662. Comment #164048 by Remnant



*That being said, why are you now arguing against something that would be beneficial under natural selection? *

Not necessarily.

Regards,
Alan,

Other Comments by alan baylis

2679. Comment #164073 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 1:34 pm

 avatar
Just came back from a trip to Europe. The area I was visiting abounded with rabbits. There I saw a baby rabbit with it's eyes picked out, probably by ravens or other such bird - the remainder of it was virtually untouched! So I suppose that was part of God's plan as well.


I have seen human brains eaten by maggots (while the person lived). All praise the loving YAHWEH!

Other Comments by BillySands

2680. Comment #164074 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 1:36 pm

 avatarComment #164073 by BillySands

Thanks.. That is going to really help me have pleasant dreams tonight.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

2681. Comment #164075 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:38 pm

 avatarBilly-

I thought maggots only ate pus and dead tissue?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

2682. Comment #164076 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 1:39 pm

 avatar
Thanks.. That is going to really help me have pleasant dreams tonight.


Typical atheist, disgusted at any show of love by your creator. I'll pray for you

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2683. Comment #164077 by Zaphod on April 19, 2008 at 1:40 pm

 avatarRemnant and Pacman leave like every creationist before them, with their respective tails between their legs. All they do is attack their perceived holes in evolutionary theory which aren't a problem for anyone with an education in it to answer. They parrot what other creationists have told them. When asked for evidence they are, as always, empty handed and absent minded. To borrow from Shakespeare "Full of sound and fury, signifying nothing."

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2684. Comment #164078 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 1:42 pm

 avatar
I thought maggots only ate pus and dead tissue?


The victim was a creationist!

Seriously though, some species (generally called bot flies) do eat living flesh. I could probably look out some pictures if you ever want to do a blog post on gods love

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2685. Comment #164079 by Steve Zara on April 19, 2008 at 1:45 pm

 avatarComment #164078 by BillySands

You must be very welcome at parties :)

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2686. Comment #164080 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:46 pm

 avatarTest post:

Troll

It works!

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2687. Comment #164081 by phasmagigas on April 19, 2008 at 1:47 pm

 avatarmoral relativism, i wonder what the most 'extreme' versions are, ie that which is totally immoral to one would be acceptable to another.

A good example is that papuan tribe where manhood is only achieved by fellating and ingesting semen from the older tribes men, otherwise the 'boy' is destined to be a girl!! now thats fine for them but would be rather illegal and immoral in most other parts of the world, well, aside from hidden rooms in cartholic churches. all gods plan right. then again there are the 'foreskin remove by mouth' practices by some jewish believers.

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2688. Comment #164082 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:48 pm

 avatarQuetz,
the new troll is much better :)

Clicking on the link didn't work for me, but copying and pasting it into the address-bar worked.

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2689. Comment #164083 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 1:48 pm

 avatar
You must be very welcome at parties :)


Not at christian ones :-)

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2690. Comment #164084 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:50 pm

 avatarphasmagigas,

there are other examples - a favourite example among moral philosophers are head-hunter tribes, or the maja who had a lottery for the honor of being sacrificed, showing that even the "most basic" moral value of life isn't universally shared throughout human cultures.

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2691. Comment #164086 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:51 pm

 avatarMPhil-

do you mean the one in post 2689? The link for the previous one didn't work so I found another picture instead.

I henceforth reserve the right to use this picture whenever I feel there is excessive trolling. This means you should expect it after every post by Clearmind.

Billy-

perhaps I could use the pics in a post that discusses the punishment for those who do not believe in my divine status :-)

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2692. Comment #164087 by MPhil on April 19, 2008 at 1:52 pm

 avatarQuetz,

I meant the one before that - which looked much cooler in my opinion - with the t-shirt, and the feet, and the stupid grin, that worked by copying-pasting.

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2693. Comment #164088 by Quine on April 19, 2008 at 1:55 pm

 avatarRemnant, try to get a grip on the difference between science and non-science. This is the well known Demarcation Problem as notably advanced by Popper and then Kuhn. Education is free on the web and neuroplasticity extends into later life, so do make an effort to improve yourself.

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2694. Comment #164089 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 1:55 pm

 avatarTroll

Sorted! Everything I said in 2694 now applies to this picture.

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2695. Comment #164091 by BillySands on April 19, 2008 at 1:57 pm

 avatar
perhaps I could use the pics in a post that discusses the punishment for those who do not believe in my divine status :-)


Or we could just feed them to my nun eating venus fly trap (aka Quetzian nun traps) http://musingsofastrangemind.blogspot.com/2008/04/my-army-grows-stronger.html

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2696. Comment #164093 by clodhopper on April 19, 2008 at 1:59 pm

 avatarQuetZ: Looks like one of Roald Dahl's big friendly giants.

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2697. Comment #164095 by phasmagigas on April 19, 2008 at 2:02 pm

 avatar
there are other examples - a favourite example among moral philosophers are head-hunter tribes, or the maja who had a lottery for the honor of being sacrificed, showing that even the "most basic" moral value of life isn't universally shared throughout human cultures.


i was thinking yesterday that its amazing just how we are influenced by our surroundings, even an intelligent 5 year old who is told that 'goldfish are evil fish' or that foreigners 'take our jobs' just isnt in a position to question that, i mean, just what the hell does a 5 year old know, i realised that you can take a child and mould them into just about anything you want, you could get a child to run on all fours if it thought it was the only option or commit suicide at age 12 if primed well enough. I rememeber sticking to my parents opinions well into my teens before i started to assimitlate other options and decide what i felt was true/right or whatever. i suppose some minds remain more flexible through time and can take on new ideas, others simply set like concrete, we know who they are.

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2698. Comment #164096 by epeeist on April 19, 2008 at 2:05 pm

 avatarComment #164035 by Remnant

Why don't you provide the scientific evidence where life has been created from non-life or where something was created from nothing.
No, that's not the way it works. You came here a complete blowhard in an attempt to show your superiority over these god-hating atheists.

What you didn't think would happen was they would ask you hard questions. Actually ask you to show how your "theories" were better than the ones that are already in place.

And you failed to supply answers, failed miserably. Because you are a know nothing, an oxygen thief. Someone whose whole library consists of one book. Someone whose whole study is less than that taught to seven year olds in my wife's school.

Zaphod should have used rather more of the quotation, all you have brought us is "a tale Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury, Signifying nothing."

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2699. Comment #164098 by alan baylis on April 19, 2008 at 2:08 pm

164086 Quetzacoatl

you'll feel wooters wrath if you do!
you know just how biting his satyrical wit can be! :-)

now sort out something suitable for ASMarques.

regards,
Alan.

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2700. Comment #164099 by Quetzalcoatl on April 19, 2008 at 2:15 pm

 avatarAlan Baylis-

how about this?

Ogre

He's pointing to the evidence for his crackpot theories.

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