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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure – that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 251 - 300 of 8795 |

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251. Comment #149144 by NormanDoering on March 25, 2008 at 7:20 am

clearthinker wrote:
"...it has to be a very distorted and deformed kind of Christianity,..."

"Is there another kind?"

And sadly Norman now demonstrates his motivation.


And you're a "Christian," right?

How exactly is it that you know your Christianity is not a distorted and deformed kind? How do you check it against distortion?

Can you move mountains with your faith? Can you handle snakes and drink poison? Can you heal the sick or cast out demons?

Mark 16:18 says:
"They will pick up snakes with their hands; and when they drink deadly poison, it will not hurt them at all; they will place their hands on sick people, and they will get well." (NIV)

"They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover." (KJV)

According to the New Testament believers in Jesus can handle snakes, presumably poisonous ones, without harm and drink ANY deadly thing. That makes your Christianity testable.

So, if your Christianity isn't distorted or deformed you should be able to drink a bottle of hydrochloric acid.

Other Comments by NormanDoering

252. Comment #149146 by al-rawandi on March 25, 2008 at 7:26 am

 avatarNorman,





That was beautiful, simply beautiful. That is now my go to test for Christian faith. That is absolutely awesome.


Well done sir.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

253. Comment #149147 by jimbob on March 25, 2008 at 7:27 am

Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?


Yes, and it's just another example of the old "Ooops, there goes #9 again!"

I've belabored the point in the past, but this site should have a special section devoted to this. It's just one way that we can demonstrate that religion is definitely NOT the basis for morality!

Other Comments by jimbob

254. Comment #149150 by Roland_F on March 25, 2008 at 7:30 am

253. Comment #149144 by NormanDoering on March 25, 2008 at 7:20 am
clearthinker wrote:
"...it has to be a very distorted and deformed kind of Christianity,..."


So, if your Christianity isn't distorted or deformed you should be able to drink a bottle of hydrochloric acid.



No Robertson should live up to the covenant with God like Abraham and offer his son to God YHWH ( maybe on the kitchen table ) and only if there is just a goat coming along in his kitchen as replacement he can exchange the offerings.

Other Comments by Roland_F

255. Comment #149151 by Darwin's badger on March 25, 2008 at 7:33 am

 avatarGreat review - many thanks, Prof D.

Other Comments by Darwin's badger

256. Comment #149153 by NormanDoering on March 25, 2008 at 7:37 am

Norman,
That was beautiful, simply beautiful.


Thank you, but I can't take credit for it. You'll find the challenge on this web site:
http://freethought.mbdojo.com/snakebite.html

Other Comments by NormanDoering

257. Comment #149155 by al-rawandi on March 25, 2008 at 7:41 am

 avatarMark 16:18


Luke 10:19



My new favorite verses.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

258. Comment #149156 by Christopher Davis on March 25, 2008 at 7:44 am

 avatarWow! Better late to the party than never. I liked Prof. Dawkins Blog and don't see the downside of his calling it like he sees it. However the thread seems to morphed into a debate on whether or not Hitler was a Christian.

Christians say definitely not, and claim that his many public statements to the contrary were mearly political rhetoric and not his true beliefs. They claim Hitler only expressed his true beliefs in private. Honestly, that sounds pretty damn Christian to me.

However, I think the debate is moot. The one thing anyone who has read even the slightest bit about Hitler and his Nazi regime should realize is that the man was an unstable lunatic.

Here's the rub...Creationists need Hitler to be an atheist. Then they can claim that because he feared no divine repercussions, he felt no inhibitions regarding his actions. Is that what Christianity is good for? Scaring people into not engineering genocide?

I'm sorry, but I don't need the fear of some sky-god kicking my ass in order to behave in a moral fashion. When Christians claim that atheists simply want there to be no God so that we can behave immorally without fear of repercussions, all they are doing is projecting. It's sad to think that so many people openly admit that the only thing that keeps them decent is the fear of the Biblical boogey-man.

One other thing, bibanu you can't seriously be calling foul because someone made an ad-hominem attack on Ann Coulter.

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259. Comment #149157 by Quetzalcoatl on March 25, 2008 at 7:46 am

 avatarThere are churches in America that are big on the snake-handling. They have a high turnover in the congregation.

I think someone died recently thanks to a snake bite, and the family threatened to sue the church for allowing it to happen.

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260. Comment #149161 by EKinateder on March 25, 2008 at 7:51 am

 avatar

As I have noted before, the Expelled producers are nervous about what they see as potential efforts by screening interlopers to record the film and expose it in ways that would damage its commercial value.


from: http://www.discovery.org/blogs/discoveryblog/2008/03/now_sycophants_in_seattle_appl.php


I must wonder why they are so worried about the film's "commercial value"? I wouldn't be surprised if the total budget for the film was well under 1 million USD. If they are bribing schools with monetary rewards that equal or exceed the cost of the movie tickets, are they really worried about the film being a commercial success? You'd think they'd want the largest audience possible to spread their message of "persecution"? This is the kind of crackpot film (from the numerous reviews I have read) that some lunatic would post to his Youtube account for all to view. On the other hand, look at the hundreds of millions of dollars that religious faith healers and preachers fleece out of the gullible each year. There is definitely a target audience, ripe for the picking!

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261. Comment #149163 by The Reverend Dark on March 25, 2008 at 7:56 am

 avatarI will note in Clearthinkers defense that he disavows the last verses of Mark - he mentioned so in the Fleabytes thread.

He still hasn't responded on the woman taken in adultery though from John though; as it meet the same criteria as the end of Mark (tacked on afterwards.)

I would be interested if he accepts the nice stories while decrying the batshit crazy ones (or at least the more batshit crazy ones.) Or even the run of the mill batshit crazy ones - like the tombs opening and the dead heading in to town for a chin-wag.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark

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262. Comment #149164 by Christian on March 25, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatarbibanu said:
Ideas/theories have consequences.


Yes, and? What do you propose we do about this? Should we refrain from teaching the Theory of Evolution because of some real or perceived negative consequences even though it is a pretty accurate description of the development of life?
Or do you adhere to that school of thought which maintains that a theory that has negative consequences can't possibly be true?


bibanu said:
Are you sure that Darwin would NOT have agreed with many of the logical consequences of his theories (e.g. superiority of the white race etc)? I am not so sure, though I am afraid that some of you would be ready to die to defend EVERY aspect of Darwin's life (?) :)


Sigh. It seems you are still stuck in religion-mode and just can't get out because what you are attempting here just doesn't work in science.
When religionists try to discredit rival religions or denominations they usually try to tarnish the reputation of their important men (yes, it's mostly men) and the further back in time they lived the better, with the founders being the jackpot. If you can discredit them and show what despicable human beings they were you have practically won.
And this is the reason why many creationists attack Darwin with such verve: they hope that if they can show what a wretched human being Charles D. was, they will land a deadly blow against the hated Theory of Evolution and it will desintegrate like the Wicked Witch of the West.

In science, however, this is immaterial. Charles Darwin was merely the first one to propose a theory on the development of life on earth that got at least the core right (unlike Lamarck and others) with many details and additions being fleshed out later.
So today, Darwin's views are of historical interest only and whatever his personal opinions on the treatment of other races, molesting babies, canibalism or kicking puppies may have been is completely irrelevant to the truth of the ToE.
Scientific theories stand on their own and not on the character of their "founders".

And damnit, when will you get it into your heads that scientific theories are descriptive and not prescriptive.


Regards
Christian

Other Comments by Christian

263. Comment #149165 by NormanDoering on March 25, 2008 at 8:06 am

EKinateder wrote:
If they are bribing schools with monetary rewards that equal or exceed the cost of the movie tickets, are they really worried about the film being a commercial success?


It wouldn't hurt.

But they seem to have a primary target to hit first. I speculated here:
http://normdoering.blogspot.com/2008/03/and-never-ending-freak-show-just-goes.html

That their reasons are probably political and have little to do with either improving science or academic freedom. This is, rather, a Swift-boating of science and academy.

Then one of my readers, Tyler DiPietro, linked his blog:
http://canofpowerup.wordpress.com/2008/02/08/the-horrowitz-option/

and he filled in the gaps. Their next step may be laws like Horowitz' "Academic Bill of Rights", which would be more or less attempts to hamstring academics in their teaching and/or force them to adopt anti-evolution faculty.

In Florida, they had a screening just for legislators.

Other Comments by NormanDoering

264. Comment #149168 by Galactor on March 25, 2008 at 8:10 am

 avatarIn response to comment #149139 by epeeist

I understand how easy it is to think that if someone did not believe in something that he might be motivated to have everyone else share this lack of belief. But if Stalin believed that having religious belief required him to positively act such that everyone abandoned theism then this is still not acting because of a *lack* of belief in something. It's still a belief in something. It's abstract, I know, but it's essential to understanding why you cannot attribute anything to something which is devoid of substance and is not operable.

The whole point is that as a word, atheism is a misnomer; a word that should arguably be abandoned and exists only because sometime in the past there was an opposing prevailing view that began to be questioned. It's like the word Darwinism - meaningless and misunderstood. We don't have social gravitationists.

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265. Comment #149172 by Philip1978 on March 25, 2008 at 8:17 am

 avatarChristopher Davis

Here's the rub...Creationists need Hitler to be an atheist. Then they can claim that because he feared no divine repercussions, he felt no inhibitions regarding his actions.


Excellent point sir, that makes tons of sense to me - if you read the Fleabytes thread and Paula Kirby's amazing article you will see that is the sort of thing David writes about in his book. This odd and somewhat dangerous way of thinking, having no God means no morals, isn't it such a surprise I have not been on the rampage yet and encouraged my fellow "fundamentalist atheists" to come with me?!

Anything to make the atheist look bad - this is what you turn into once you have abandoned God! Its an amazing scare tactic and a fine way of deceitfully distorting the image of atheism whilst looking all high and mighty.

Look at this Expelled nonsense, its another deceitful scare tactic, (using examples of Hitler), built on lies, distortions of character - a sort of "look at us persecuted victims, those nasty atheists and their evil version of science did this to us!"

Pathetic!

Philip

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266. Comment #149175 by nickthelight on March 25, 2008 at 8:19 am

 avatarProfessor Dawkins,

Do you think this film (I have not seen it) will increase the zeal of its supporters or simply act as a fertiliser for ridicule from 'our' side?

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267. Comment #149177 by NormanDoering on March 25, 2008 at 8:22 am

The Reverend Dark wrote:
I will note in Clearthinkers defense that he disavows the last verses of Mark - he mentioned so in the Fleabytes thread.


Oh drat! Someone else got to him first.

So, then, that means he thinks his Bible distorted and deformed and he has extra-biblical sources of knowledge to tell him which passages are bullshit?

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268. Comment #149178 by Christian on March 25, 2008 at 8:23 am

 avatarDr. Benway said:
Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot did NOT collect stamps. Their non-stamp collecting lifestyle led them to kill millions.


Usually I keep two or three stamps in my wallet just in case I need them for absolutely mundane reasons.
However, this habit has also come in handy when dealing with stamp collectors. When they accuse me of being one of those evil non-stamp collectors I can alleviate their fears by showing them my wallet. And although they laugh at the few run-of-the-mill stamps in my possession and pity me for my meager collection, they at least don't think I am one of those despicable aphilatelists who are up to no good.

Ahhh, I'm such a weasel...

;^)

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269. Comment #149180 by de9 on March 25, 2008 at 8:30 am

Seeing Ben Stein's "Expelled" as Propaganda

An excellent article. I agree that the "goon" discription is not up to RD's standards.

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270. Comment #149187 by Philip1978 on March 25, 2008 at 8:39 am

 avatarChristian

they at least don't think I am one of those despicable aphilatelists who are up to no good.



You remember when you had to lick stamps in the past...what do you think us aphilatelists did to the stamps to make them taste so bad? You never thought of that did ya? BWHAHAHAHAHA! :)

Philip

Other Comments by Philip1978

271. Comment #149188 by Christian on March 25, 2008 at 8:40 am

 avatar
There are churches in America that are big on the snake-handling. They have a high turnover in the congregation.

I think someone died recently thanks to a snake bite, and the family threatened to sue the church for allowing it to happen.


Apparently they forgot to keep the snakes in a cool-box so the poor beasties become lethargic ;)

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272. Comment #149195 by Christian on March 25, 2008 at 8:51 am

 avatar
You remember when you had to lick stamps in the past...what do you think us aphilatelists did to the stamps to make them taste so bad? You never thought of that did ya? BWHAHAHAHAHA! :)


Hell, no! I never licked them myself. I always found that to be gross. That's why I always made others lick them for me.
Being an amoral aphilatelist myself I have no problem with that and enjoying the distorted faces of the stamp lickers is simply priceless. YARR DEE HARR HARR *hack* *hack* ARrrr

Oy, this dirty laugh is killing me ;)

Other Comments by Christian

273. Comment #149197 by gator68 on March 25, 2008 at 8:57 am

Comment #149139 by epeeist
Assume that Stalin was an atheist and believed that any other position was wrong. It is perfectly possible to imagine him attempting to bend others to atheism and to kill them if they would not espouse this.

You went wrong on the bolded part. In your example it is not Stalin's athiesm that makes him want to kill other people. It is his belief that any other position is wrong... and a further belief that it is OK to kill people.

An ironic example... Just switch out "Stalin" and "atheism" and insert "the Pope" and "Christianity" for much of its history and you would have actual historical examples.

Other Comments by gator68

274. Comment #149200 by Philip1978 on March 25, 2008 at 9:00 am

 avatarChristian

My goodness, you are an amoral aphilatelist indeed, making people lick the stamps and seeing them suffer whilst you enjoy it!

(To quote The Baby Eating Bishop of Bath and Wells from Blackadder, Series 3 Episode called Money:)

Never have I encountered such corrupt and foul-minded perversity! Have you ever considered a career in the Church?


:)

Philip

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275. Comment #149201 by Christopher Davis on March 25, 2008 at 9:01 am

 avatarI saw a program on the DISCOVERY CHANNEL, I beleive the name of it was "Hillbillies" (it was hosted by Billy Ray Cyrus), and a segment of it pertained to "snake-handling churches". One of the churches had a veteran snake handler who was, according to one of the other church members, exceptionally blessed. Why? Because he had been bitten by the snakes nearly a hundred times but was still here to tell about it!

Of course when he did tell us about it the producers of the show deemed it neccessary to use subtitles because this guys Appalachian accent was so bad only people like me who also grew up in the sticks could understand him.

It gets better. It seems that this particular old coot had lost three or four family members, including his sister, to snake bites.

Now call me crazy, but if I'm handling snakes to show my devotion to my all-powerful, benevolent creator, I ain't going to feel too blessed if he lets my ass get bit repeatedly and kills off half my family.

Other Comments by Christopher Davis

276. Comment #149203 by Galactor on March 25, 2008 at 9:02 am

 avatarSteve, regarding your post #149140.

This type of thing and the explanation for how it can't work is for me the essence of why science and in this case physics, is a difficult subject matter to teach (and therefore be understood). You have to get the terminology right for one thing and it's so easy to kludge what you're trying to say.

Can you really "focus heat"?!

Heat is not a vector; it's a scalar entity and direction can not be applied to it (or else I'm 'itler's muvva). Yet heat is said to flow from one place to another!

You can direct the photons of course and this is the essence of where the cold sink device fails to work. For the device to work, it would have to attract photons from the source of heat it was intended to cool.

Stop me, I'm talking nonsense.

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277. Comment #149207 by Steve Zara on March 25, 2008 at 9:06 am

 avatar
Can you really "focus heat"?!


Well, OK, you caught me out in an over-simplification :)

Other Comments by Steve Zara

278. Comment #149208 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 9:08 am

 avatarFleabytes Comment #147672 by clearthinker:
First of all I do not crave the attention on this website. In fact I could really do without it and when I am finished my 'shredding ' of Paula's review I will leave it alone. I was quite happy away from it until a couple of you contacted me to accuse me of cowardice for not responding to an article I did not know existed and also of lying about the quotes in my book.


#147688 Clod - I note that you say you will leave it alone when this review process has run its course. For how long do you think you will be able to stay away?


Bloody hell David....you managed 4 days. Are you on steroids?

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279. Comment #149210 by al-rawandi on March 25, 2008 at 9:08 am

 avatargator,




No it was his foolish adherence to a ridiculous social system known as Communism that made him kill people.


The fundamental belief in communism is that the good of the many outweigh the good of the few. If he kills a few million so 200 million can live in a "dictatorship of the proletariat" than he has done a good thing.

That is the same form of dogma we see in the "establishment of the Islamic State". True they have to kill a few homosexuals, adulterers and Zionist spies, but the good is established with the Shariah.


same shit, different assholes.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

280. Comment #149211 by Dr.GH on March 25, 2008 at 9:09 am

I have been delighted with the unfolding events following your visit with PZ and friends. The floundering and lying by the creationists truly exposes them for the shallow people they are.

There are two points I would like to make regarding a portion of your item above where you commented that you wanted a society "about as un-Darwinian as we can make it." Darwin certainly agreed with you. In Chapter 5 of the Decent of Man, Darwin wrote regarding the protection of the weak and ill, "Nor could we check our sympathy, even at the urging of hard reason, without the deterioration in the noblest part of our nature. The surgeon may harden himself whilst performing an operation, for he knows that he is acting for the good of his patient; but if we were to intentionally neglect the weak and helpless it could only be for a contingent benefit, with an overwhelming present evil."

He later observed, "Looking to future generations, there is no cause to fear that the social instincts will grow weaker... the social instincts, - the prime principle of man's moral constitution - with the aid of active intellectual powers and the effects of habit, naturally lead to the golden rule, "As ye would that men should do to you; do ye to them likewise"; and this lies at the foundation of morality. Part I, Chap. IV
--Charles Darwin, The Descent of Man, 1871.

The second is that even Richard Nixon would be far too liberal for today's conservative movement. Nixon signed and even promoted the Environmental Protection Act, and extended it by several presidential orders. He imposed wage and price controls and even nationalized the railroads, all "socialistic" actions under the current Republican politic. To imagine Nixon as a liberal is to see how far we have fallen.

Other Comments by Dr.GH

281. Comment #149213 by bitofinger on March 25, 2008 at 9:12 am

 avatarRichard,

Thank you for your effort to confront this film and a hundred times over for your continuous efforts to bring science and reason to a new Age of Enlightenment.

Although I'm sure of your description of the factual errancies in the film and of the dishonest, manipulative nature of its producer, I think you should have left film critiquing to the film critics.

Your frustration and impatience are apparent in your review, and you may well be giving people like Mathis the precious oxygen for which they so desperately starve by describing the film as "whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really." These are not adjectives a serious or really even a casual film audience would regard when considering whether to see it or not - though I did love the Lord Privy Seal reference.

I trust you trust in me to trust in you that yours is the highest, most noble of pursuits (couldn't resist a little obfuscation).

All tolled, it was a genuine article. ;)

Other Comments by bitofinger

282. Comment #149216 by kevinmillerxi on March 25, 2008 at 9:14 am

Whose the liar now? Check out Dave Scot's argument for why he thinks PZ and Dawkins really did gate-crash the Expelled screening in Minneapolis. It's over at uncommondescent.com.

Other Comments by kevinmillerxi

283. Comment #149219 by AdrianB on March 25, 2008 at 9:21 am

 avatarDid anybody else watch the BBC4 "The Frost Report" repeats/tribute last night?

It actually had a comedy sketch about the lack of imagination in television. The sketch was David Frost as a newsreader, with his every word in pictures, finally cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal.

So I'm guessing that The Frost Report is the source of the 'Lord Privy Seal' joke.

Other Comments by AdrianB

284. Comment #149232 by gator68 on March 25, 2008 at 9:42 am

Comment #149210 by al-rawandi
No it was his foolish adherence to a ridiculous social system known as Communism that made him kill people.

You had to read what I was responding to. eepeist tried to construct a logical chain connecting atheism with killing lots of people. I was simply pointing out that his chain was broken.

Other Comments by gator68

285. Comment #149235 by al-rawandi on March 25, 2008 at 9:48 am

 avatargator,



I read what epeeist said. You were right to point that out.


I was just saying that it was Communism that drove him to kill all those people, along with a healthy dose of psychopathy due to abuse as a child while in religious school.

I was just identifying the cause.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

286. Comment #149241 by irate_atheist on March 25, 2008 at 9:58 am

 avatar206. Comment #149060 by clearthinker -
Not least because it is completely untrue. I would never feel justified in lying for my faith.
But you're perfectly happy to issue a bad cheque to an unsuspecting bus driver. Or misquote people. Or misrepresent their views. Or lie about being currently banned from this website. Or lie about articles not being on the frontpage of this website.

David, we've heard it all before. Some of us have even been good enough to respond politely to you. But the simple truth is, if you were given an enema, you could be buried in a matchbox.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

287. Comment #149243 by transylvanian on March 25, 2008 at 10:07 am

 avatarHaha... very amusing that Richard hadn't heard of Ben Stein... that whiny voice is sort of a minor pop-culture landmark in the States and Canada. There's even a game-show... "Win Ben Stein's Money." I always reacted to him with indifference, until I found out that he was amongst the religious right, and then he was annoying to me. I believe he's had *some* OK film roles... but I won't say memorable ones, cos I can't remember them.

Anyway what a terrible racket this whole thing is. I hope that the film does get theatrical exposure and totally bombs at the box office.

ALTHOUGH... "Darwin influnced Hitler" might be a little straightforward, but Darwin's books influenced his cousin Frances Galton's ideas about eugenics, which definitely influenced the Nazis' ideas about racial purity. This is pretty well-documented

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Francis_Galton
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eugenics

Other Comments by transylvanian

288. Comment #149245 by BillySands on March 25, 2008 at 10:10 am

 avatar
One of the churches had a veteran snake handler who was, according to one of the other church members, exceptionally blessed. Why? Because he had been bitten by the snakes nearly a hundred times but was still here to tell about it!


Bet he has just produced loads of antibodies to the venom - no magic god required.

But the simple truth is, if you were given an enema, you could be buried in a matchbox.


Do you think he loses weight when he speaks?

Other Comments by BillySands

289. Comment #149248 by irate_atheist on March 25, 2008 at 10:16 am

 avatar290. Comment #149245 by BillySands -
Do you think he loses weight when he speaks?
I'm not sure. But he does have to stand up to be audible.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

290. Comment #149250 by al-rawandi on March 25, 2008 at 10:19 am

 avatartransylvanian,




"Bueller, Bueller.... Bueller"

Other Comments by al-rawandi

291. Comment #149252 by Fedler on March 25, 2008 at 10:24 am

 avatarPhillip1978:
The list goes on as to why they [Hitler, Stalin, etc.] did the horrific things they did but for goodness sake I advise people like yourself David, who take every opportunity to make people look bad by twisting and distorting facts about atheism, to SHUT UP about it, its sodding pathetic!

Atheism is a complete absence of a belief in Gods, the supernatural etc That's it! Finished, Case closed!
Indeed. David, any implications or presuppositions you make regarding any atheist 'philosophy' are yours alone, and that doesn't make them true. There is no 'philosophy' inherent in atheism, only ones you make up to satisfy your presuppositions.

Other Comments by Fedler

292. Comment #149262 by Galactor on March 25, 2008 at 10:55 am

 avatarHey everyone, Steve Zara said:
Well, OK, you [Galactor] caught me out in an over-simplification


Gosh, I (for it is he, Galactor) must be so clever.

Other Comments by Galactor

293. Comment #149263 by Steve Zara on March 25, 2008 at 11:02 am

 avatarComment #149262 by Galactor

You can focus methods of transmitting heat...

Other Comments by Steve Zara

294. Comment #149265 by Galactor on March 25, 2008 at 11:06 am

 avatarSteve, it's all too late. Now it's been established that I am cleverer than you, any attempts to backtrack and regain some semblance of respectibility and credibility will serve against you - you know how this crowd are.

Other Comments by Galactor

295. Comment #149267 by Steve Zara on March 25, 2008 at 11:08 am

 avatar
Steve, it's all too late. Now it's been established that I am cleverer than you, any attempts to backtrack and regain some semblance of respectibility and credibility will serve against you - you know how this crowd are.


Damn! I should have remembered the rules.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

296. Comment #149268 by Galactor on March 25, 2008 at 11:11 am

 avatarNot so much the rules, but the rules of the survival of the fittest. These Darwinists - once they get a hold of you, they shake, tear, snarl and watch as your very essence makes way for the new scientific know-all.

Other Comments by Galactor

297. Comment #149271 by jimboforreason on March 25, 2008 at 11:17 am

Richard,

Did a film crew you were associated with misrepresent themselves to the Discovery Institute or other religious groups? And did you ever use a different name for your film(s) to gain access to use faith groups? Say it ain't so.

Other Comments by jimboforreason

298. Comment #149272 by clodhopper on March 25, 2008 at 11:18 am

 avatar"You can focus methods of transmitting heat... "

How is heat focussed and transmitted in hell?

Other Comments by clodhopper

299. Comment #149273 by stevencarrwork on March 25, 2008 at 11:19 am

I see Clearthinker simply scoffs at the documented record that Hitler devoted a lot of energy in 1942 to making sure that the Oberammagau Passion Plays took place.

This is recorded in Table Talk - the German version, and not the English translation of the doctored French version.

Hitler wanted the Plays to take place, because Hitler knew that the Gospel crucifixion scenes were anti-Semitic, and he wanted people to know who had killed Jesus. (The Pope had told them who killed Jesus in his 1937 Encylical 'Mit Brennender Sorge', but they needed reminding , it seems)

But Clearthinker won't accept anything that contradicts his beliefs - even when it is there in black and white.

Other Comments by stevencarrwork

300. Comment #149275 by stevencarrwork on March 25, 2008 at 11:26 am

CLEARTHINKER
Since you want to cite teh table talk I wonder why you left out this - which RD cites. "The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity."

CARR
I see Clearthinker is still using the English translation of the doctored French version....

What is the original German of this?

That should keep David Robertson quiet for a while, until he pops up again and repeats this doctored quote again.

Other Comments by stevencarrwork
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