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Sunday, March 23, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document Lying for Jesus?

by Richard Dawkins

The blogs are ringing with ridicule. Mark Mathis, duplicitous producer of the much hyped film Expelled, shot himself in the foot so spectacularly that the phrase might have been invented for him. Goals don't come more own than this. How is it possible that a man who makes his living from partisan propaganda could hand so stunning a propaganda coup to his opponents? Hand it to them on a plate, so ignominiously and so UNNECESSARILY.

In writing this for RichardDawkins.net, I have assumed that our readers will already be familiar with the facts of the case, from Pharyngula and the more than 40 other blogs that have picked up the story and are listed at
http://scienceblogs.com/gregladen/2008/03/pz_myers_expelled_gains_sainth.php
For the same reason, I shall not discuss the main message of the film -- that American creationist scientists are being victimized for their views -- except to say that it was very much NOT its main message when the film was called Crossroads, and when I, together with PZ Myers, Eugenie Scott and others, were conned into taking part.

Now, to the Good Friday Fiasco itself, Mathis' extraordinary and costly lapse of judgment. Just think about it. His entire film is devoted to the notion that American scientists are being hounded and expelled from their jobs because of opinions that they hold. The film works hard at pressing (no, belabouring with a sledgehammer) all the favourite hot buttons of free speech, freedom of thought, the right of dissent, the right to be heard, the right to discuss issues rather than suppress argument. These are the topics that the film sets out to raise, with particular reference to evolution and 'intelligent design' (wittily described by someone as creationism in a cheap tuxedo). In the course of this film, Mathis tricked a number of scientists, including PZ Myers and me, into taking prominent parts in the film, and both of us are handsomely thanked in the closing credits.

Seemingly oblivious to the irony, Mathis instructed some uniformed goon to evict Myers while he was standing in line with his family to enter the theatre, and threaten him with arrest if he didn't immediately leave the premises. Did it not occur to Mathis -- what would occur any normally polite and reasonable person -- that Myers, having played a leading role in the film, might have been welcomed as an honoured guest to watch it? Or, more cynically, did he not know that PZ is one of the country's most popular bloggers, with a notoriously caustic wit, perfectly placed to set the whole internet roaring with delighted and mocking laughter? I long ago realised that Mathis was deceitful. I didn't know he was a bungling incompetent.

Not just incompetent at public relations, incompetent in his chosen profession of film-making, for the film itself, as I discovered when I saw it on Friday (and this genuinely surprised me) is dull, artless, amateurish, too long, poorly constructed and utterly devoid of any style, wit or subtlety. It bears all the hallmarks of a film-maker who knows nothing about the craft of making films. I'll come to that in a moment.

But first, I should deal with some questions that have arisen over the Good Friday Massacre of Mark Mathis' reputation (some commentators are publicly wondering whether the film will ever be released, speculating that its financial backers will pull out for fear of being tarnished with some of the ridicule?)

In a desperate effort to scrape some of the egg off their faces, the creationist wingnuts are spinning the story to make it look as though PZ and I were 'gatecrashers'. The ill-named 'Discovery' Institute heads its web article, "Richard Dawkins, World Famous Darwinist, Stoops to Gate-crashing Expelled." The article says that I "apparently acknowledged that I was not invited". Mark Mathis himself said something similar about PZ in the Q & A after the showing, when I publicly challenged him to explain why he had expelled him, claiming that this performance was by invitation only, and PZ had not been invited. But, as many commentators have pointed out, this was most certainly not an invitation-only affair. The way to get into this showing of the film was simply to go on the Internet and apply. This was exactly what PZ did. He went on the Web and put his name down for a place at the showing, just like everybody else, including several others from the American Atheists annual conference in Minneapolis. Not a man to hide behind a false name or false beard, PZ openly sported his own. Like many other people, including his daughter and Kristine Harley (see her Amused Muse website), PZ took advantage of the generous offer to let him book guests in as well, and then kindly invited me to be one of them. There was no request to give the names of guests, and no machinery to do so, which was why my name did not appear on the list.

Many people have wondered why, if PZ was expelled, I managed to get in. This has been adduced as further evidence of Mathis' bungling incompetence, but I think that is unfair. It was easy for Mathis to spot PZ Myers' name on the list of those registering in advance. Like all guests, my name was not on any list, and therefore Mathis didn't spot me. So I think he can be absolved of stupidity in not spotting me. But convicted of extreme stupidity in expelling PZ when he spotted him. What was he afraid of? What did he think PZ would do, open fire with a Kalashnikov? Now that I think about it, that would have been all-of-a-piece with the overblown paranoia displayed throughout the film itself.

The whole tone of the film is whiny, paranoid -- pathetic really. The narrator is somebody called Ben Stein. I had not heard of him, but apparently he is well known to Americans, for it is hard to see why else he would have been chosen to front the film. He certainly can't have been chosen for his knowledge of science, nor his powers of logical reasoning, nor his box office appeal (heavens, no), and his speaking voice is an irritating, nasal drawl, innocent of charm and of consonants. I suppose that makes it a good voice for conveying the whingeing paranoia that I referred to, so maybe that was qualification enough.

Now, to the film itself. What a shoddy, second-rate piece of work. A favourite joke among the film-making community is the 'Lord Privy Seal'. Amateurs and novices in the making of documentaries can't resist illustrating every significant word in the commentary by cutting to a picture of it. The Lord Privy Seal is an antiquated title in Britain's heraldic tradition. The joke imagines a low-grade film director who illustrates it by cutting to a picture of a Lord, then a privy, and then a seal. Mathis' film is positively barking with Lord Privy Seals. We get an otherwise pointless cut to Nikita Krushchev hammering the table (to illustrate something like 'emotional outburst'). There are similarly clunking and artless cuts to a guillotine, fist fights, and above all to the Berlin wall and Nazi gas chambers and concentration camps.

The alleged association between Darwinism and Nazism is harped on for what seems like hours, and it is quite simply an outrage. We are supposed to believe that Hitler was influenced by Darwin. Hitler was ignorant and bonkers enough for his hideous mind to have imbibed some sort of garbled misunderstanding of Darwin (along with his very ungarbled understanding of the anti-semitism of Martin Luther, and of his own never-renounced Roman Catholic religion) but it is hardly Darwin's fault if he did. My own view, frequently expressed (for example in the The Selfish Gene and especially in the title chapter of A Devil's Chaplain) is that there are two reasons why we need to take Darwinian natural selection seriously. Firstly, it is the most important element in the explanation for our own existence and that of all life. Secondly, natural selection is a good object lesson in how NOT to organize a society. As I have often said before, as a scientist I am a passionate Darwinian. But as a citizen and a human being, I want to construct a society which is about as un-Darwinian as we can make it. I approve of looking after the poor (very un-Darwinian). I approve of universal medical care (very un-Darwinian). It is one of the classic philosophical fallacies to derive an 'ought' from an 'is'. Stein (or whoever wrote his script for him) is implying that Hitler committed that fallacy with respect to Darwinism. If we look at more recent history, the closest representatives you'll find to Darwinian politics are uncompassionate conservatives like Margaret Thatcher, George W Bush, or Ben Stein's own hero, Richard Nixon. Maybe all these people, along with the Social Darwinists from Herbert Spencer to John D Rockefeller, committed the is/ought fallacy and justified their unpleasant social views by invoking garbled Darwinism. Anyone who thinks that has any bearing whatsoever on the truth or falsity of Darwin's theory of evolution is either an unreasoning fool or a cynical manipulator of unreasoning fools. I will not speculate as to which category includes Ben Stein and Mark Mathis.

Stein has no talent for comedy, as he demonstrates in a weird joke about scratching his back, which falls completely flat. But his attempt to do tragedy is even worse. He visits Dachau and, when informed by the guide that lots of Jews had been killed there, he buries his face in his hands as though this is the first time he has heard of it. Obviously it was not his intention, but I thought his rotten acting was an insult to the memory of the victims.

More sinister than the artless Lord Privy Seals, and the self-indulgent and wholly illicit playing of the Nazi trump card, the film goes shamelessly for cheap laughs at the expense of scientists and scholars who are making honest attempts to explain difficult points. Cheap laughs that could only be raised in an audience of scientific ignoramuses (and here Mathis' propaganda instincts cannot be faulted: he certainly knows his target audience). One example is the treatment of the philosopher Michael Ruse: a decent man, bluff, bearded, articulate, and with a genuine and sincere desire to explain difficult ideas clearly. Stein asked Ruse how life originated. Ruse's immediate impulse (as mine would have been) was to launch into an honest effort to explain a difficult scientific idea. He began by saying that he doesn't know how life originated, and nor does anybody else. At this point in his interview, Ruse probably had no notion that his interlocuter had a completely different agenda to promote, with no hint of sincerity to balance his own. Ruse patiently explained that the origin of life (nothing to do with the Darwinian theory itself but the necessary precursor of Darwinian evolution) is an interesting and unsolved mystery, one that scientists are actively working on. By way of example, Ruse could have chosen any of a number of current theories. He chose just one (it would have taken too long to explain them all) purely as an illustration of the kind of properties such a theory must have. He happened to choose the theory proposed by the Scottish chemist Graham Cairns-Smith, that organic life was preceded by a strange and intriguing world of replicating patterns on the surfaces of crystals in inorganic clays. At no time did Ruse say he believed the Cairns-Smith theory, only that it was the KIND of theory that scientists are actively examining, as a CANDIDATE for the origin of evolution. Stein just loved it. Mud! MUD! The sarcasm in his grating, nasal voice was palpable. Maybe this was when Ruse realised that he had been had. Certainly it was at this point that he started to show signs of exasperation, although he may still have thought that Stein was merely stupid, rather than pursuing a malevolent and clandestine agenda. Stein kept returning, throughout the film, to the phrase "on the backs of crystals", and the sycophantic audience in the Minneapolis cinema dutifully tittered every time.

Another example. Toward the end of his interview with me, Stein asked whether I could think of any circumstances whatsoever under which intelligent design might have occurred. It's the kind of challenge I relish, and I set myself the task of imagining the most plausible scenario I could. I wanted to give ID its best shot, however poor that best shot might be. I must have been feeling magnanimous that day, because I was aware that the leading advocates of Intelligent Design are very fond of protesting that they are not talking about God as the designer, but about some unnamed and unspecified intelligence, which might even be an alien from another planet. Indeed, this is the only way they differentiate themselves from fundamentalist creationists, and they do it only when they need to, in order to weasel their way around church/state separation laws. So, bending over backwards to accommodate the IDiots ("oh NOOOOO, of course we aren't talking about God, this is SCIENCE") and bending over backwards to make the best case I could for intelligent design, I constructed a science fiction scenario. Like Michael Ruse (as I surmise) I still hadn't rumbled Stein, and I was charitable enough to think he was an honestly stupid man, sincerely seeking enlightenment from a scientist. I patiently explained to him that life could conceivably have been seeded on Earth by an alien intelligence from another planet (Francis Crick and Leslie Orgel suggested something similar -- semi tongue-in-cheek). The conclusion I was heading towards was that, even in the highly unlikely event that some such 'Directed Panspermia' was responsible for designing life on this planet, the alien beings would THEMSELVES have to have evolved, if not by Darwinian selection, by some equivalent 'crane' (to quote Dan Dennett). My point here was that design can never be an ULTIMATE explanation for organized complexity. Even if life on Earth was seeded by intelligent designers on another planet, and even if the alien life form was itself seeded four billion years earlier, the regress must ultimately be terminated (and we have only some 13 billion years to play with because of the finite age of the universe). Organized complexity cannot just spontaneously happen. That, for goodness sake, is the creationists' whole point, when they bang on about eyes and bacterial flagella! Evolution by natural selection is the only known process whereby organized complexity can ultimately come into being. Organized complexity -- and that includes everything capable of designing anything intelligently -- comes LATE into the universe. It cannot exist at the beginning, as I have explained again and again in my writings.

This 'Ultimate 747' argument, as I called it in The God Delusion, may or may not persuade you. That is not my concern here. My concern here is that my science fiction thought experiment -- however implausible -- was designed to illustrate intelligent design's closest approach to being plausible. I was most emphaticaly NOT saying that I believed the thought experiment. Quite the contrary. I do not believe it (and I don't think Francis Crick believed it either). I was bending over backwards to make the best case I could for a form of intelligent design. And my clear implication was that the best case I could make was a very implausible case indeed. In other words, I was using the thought experiment as a way of demonstrating strong opposition to all theories of intelligent design.

Well, you will have guessed how Mathis/Stein handled this. I won't get the exact words right (we were forbidden to bring in recording devices on pain of a $250,000 fine, chillingly announced by some unnamed Gauleiter before the film began), but Stein said something like this. "What? Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN INTELLIGENT DESIGN." "Richard Dawkins BELIEVES IN ALIENS FROM OUTER SPACE." I can't remember whether this was the moment in the film where we were regaled with another Lord Privy Seal cut to an old science fiction movie with some kind of android figure — that may have been used in the service of trying to ridicule Francis Crick (again, dutiful titters from the partisan audience).

Enough on the film itself. Quite apart from anything else, it is drearily boring, the tedium exacerbated by the grating monotony of Stein's voice. At the end, Mathis came on the stage to answer questions. He had of course taken the precaution of removing the one individual whom he apparently saw as a likely source of knowledgeable questions, Professor Myers. He must have been surprised when I stood up and asked him to explain why he had expelled PZ, given that the film was an attack on such expulsions, and given that the film's acknowledgments had thanked PZ for his role in the film. Mathis trotted out the lie that Myers had been excluded because he was not invited. This seemed to satisfy the loyal audience, even though they presumably knew perfectly well that they hadn't been invited either, and that they, like PZ, had simply booked their seats on the Internet. I pursued the matter until the audience's hostile demeanour persuaded me that there was no point in continuing. The point was made to all whose minds were not completely blinded by religious zeal.

The New York Times picked up the story, and caught Mathis in the act of perpetrating yet another piece of dubious spin-doctoring.

Mark Mathis, a producer of the film who attended the screening, said that "of course" he had recognized Dr. Dawkins, but allowed him to attend because "he has handled himself fairly honorably, he is a guest in our country and I had to presume he had flown a long way to see the film."


As I said before, Mathis almost certainly detected Myers' name on the list of those who signed up on the Internet. Since my name was not on that list, it is highly likely that Mathis didn't spot me until the moment I stood up in the Question session, when it was too late to expel me. So all that stuff about allowing me to attend because I have handled myself fairly honourably is almost certainly dishonourable spinning. As for the implication that I might have flown all the way from England to see his disreputable film, the very idea is as ludicrous as the film itself. Like PZ Myers, I was in Minneapolis for the conference of the American Atheists.

Josh Timonen and Kristine Harley took up the cudgels. Josh drew attention to the digraceful victimization of scientists espousing the Stork Theory of reproduction, by hardline members of the 'Sex Theory' establishment. And Kristine asked Mathis to explain what had become of a film called Crossroads which had mysteriously morphed itself into Expelled. The import of her question was the widely known fact, which I have already mentioned, that PZ and I had been tricked into participating in Crossroads without ever being told that the true purpose of the film was the one conveyed by the later title Expelled -- the alleged expulsion of creationists from universities. Mathis said that it was common practice for films under production to have working titles, which later change in the final version. That is indeed true. However, yet again, Mathis shows himself up as a wilfull deceiver. As Kristine herself said on her blog (http://amused-muse.blogspot.com/):

It would appear that Expelled's producer Mark Mathis was not being truthful when he told me tonight that Crossroads was a 'working title' for the film Expelled. As Wesley Elsberry points out, the domain for Expelled was purchased before most, if not all, of the interviews were conducted -- and yet Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, PZ Myers, and others were told they were being interviewed for a film called Crossroads.

Mr. Mark Mathis, do you want to come here and explain yourself?


Could Mathis have been sincere when he originally told PZ and me the film was an honest attempt to examine evolution and intelligent design? The evidence that they had already purchased the Expelled domain name argues against this. Certainly Mathis' friendly demeanour disarmed me into cooperating with him -- indeed, I went out of my way to HELP him on his visit to Britain -- in a way that I never would have if I had had the slightest suspicion that his outfit was in fact a creationist front. I may have misremembered the details of our exchanges, by eMail and by telephone, but I vividly remember his reassuring me, over the telephone, that he was on the side of science, and he made no attempt to distance himself from my sarcastic jokes about 'Intelligent Design'. I am reluctantly driven to wonder whether he is an inveterate liar, as well as a dreadful film-maker. Yet another example of Lying for Jesus?

Comments 4701 - 4750 of 9309 |

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4701. Comment #169540 by riandouglas on April 26, 2008 at 9:04 am

 avatar
RevDark: They don't feel the need to, 6,000 years isn't long enough to worry about such things.

You're wrong, because AiG says different, nerr! :-)
from the link: "At its peak, this runaway instability allows the subduction rates of the plates to reach amazing speeds of feet-per-second."

According to AiG, the continents were cruising apart at walking pace.

Other Comments by riandouglas

4702. Comment #169541 by Steve Zara on April 26, 2008 at 9:04 am

 avatarAs this thread has become the new "Fleabytes", I think this is the appropriate place..

A true legend has just died. And, in his memory, I say:

Oxford circus....

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4703. Comment #169542 by BillySands on April 26, 2008 at 9:05 am

 avatarThanks Steve and riandouglas. You've got to laugh

Other Comments by BillySands

4704. Comment #169543 by Paula Kirby on April 26, 2008 at 9:10 am

 avatar
Steve Zara: As this thread has become the new "Fleabytes", I think this is the appropriate place..

A true legend has just died. And, in his memory, I say:

Oxford circus....
At the risk of alienating every non-British, non-Radio-4-listening person on this website - what's going to become of Samantha now? And Mrs Trellis of North Wales? And I shall miss him too. Though possibly for different reasons.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

4705. Comment #169545 by MPhil on April 26, 2008 at 9:11 am

 avatarOkay, I give up... who died? Sorry, "Oxford Circus" doesn't ring a bell for me... :(

Other Comments by MPhil

4706. Comment #169546 by The Reverend Dark on April 26, 2008 at 9:12 am

 avatarRian, you are quite right, I am deeply, deeply, shamed that I have not kept up to date on the latest creationist delusions.

And given the results of such a speed, I can see that they have not kept up on even the most basic elements of physics.

So I don't feel so bad after all.

Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne dark

Other Comments by The Reverend Dark

4707. Comment #169548 by MPhil on April 26, 2008 at 9:16 am

 avatarAh, someone from "I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue" evidentally... as I have never had access to that, I can't relate. But since I'm generally very fond of british comedy - I'm sure the loss is immense.

Other Comments by MPhil

4708. Comment #169549 by riandouglas on April 26, 2008 at 9:17 am

 avatartxpiper, thanks for taking some small time to put forward an argument, and begin following it up.

Remnant, if you're still reading, With your baseless assertions and self proclaimed mastery of science logic and biblical studies, all of which you were shown to be in complete ignorance of. Your kids would be ashamed, as should you be.

Romans 1:22 (Weymouth New Testament)
While boasting of their wisdom they became utter fools


2 am and time for bed. Night all!

Other Comments by riandouglas

4709. Comment #169550 by Paula Kirby on April 26, 2008 at 9:21 am

 avatar
MPhil: Ah, someone from "I'm Sorry I Haven't a Clue" evidentally
Humphrey Lyttelton himself, no less. A fabulous musician and an outrageously funny man. A real one-off.

Other Comments by Paula Kirby

4710. Comment #169553 by txpiper on April 26, 2008 at 9:32 am

My original comment was in response to the claim that there is no geological evidence for a planet-wide flood event. Such a statement, in view of the amounts and distribution of the sediments, is rather dismissive in my view. One may argue about the interpretation of the evidence, but you can't say that it isn't there.

As to the fossils, they only seem to complicate the conventional views which require many small or large scale flood events over long periods of time. A single species being found in a particular strata on multiple continents, seems too uniform for this to have been the case.

Other Comments by txpiper

4711. Comment #169555 by MaxD on April 26, 2008 at 9:38 am

 avatarIncredulous said:

Remnant:

Instead of sneering at the genuine attempts of people to accommodate and hence understand your arguments, could you please answer the questions put to you in the manner you have been asked to answer them in.

You have not answered riandouglas' or epeeist's questions and these are the only people I am aware of that have asked questions so apologies to those who have asked you a question but I have not mentioned.

Thank you for your cooperation.


I would second this. But just incase remnant forgot my two questions....I would like to add them to the mix, as I think they will be important.
Remnant!
1. Does Genesis 1 & 2 accurately describe the events of Creation?

2. Was it okay to kill the first born of Egypt. Whas this wonder moral?
1 And the LORD said unto Moses, Yet will I bring one plague more upon Pharaoh, and upon Egypt; afterwards he will let you go hence: when he shall let you go, he shall surely thrust you out hence altogether.

2 Speak now in the ears of the people, and let every man borrow of his neighbour, and every woman of her neighbour, jewels of silver, and jewels of gold.

3 And the LORD gave the people favour in the sight of the Egyptians. Moreover the man Moses was very great in the land of Egypt, in the sight of Pharaoh's servants, and in the sight of the people.

4 And Moses said, Thus saith the LORD, About midnight will I go out into the midst of Egypt:

5 And all the firstborn in the land of Egypt shall die, from the firstborn of Pharaoh that sitteth upon his throne, even unto the firstborn of the maidservant that is behind the mill; and all the firstborn of beasts.

6 And there shall be a great cry throughout all the land of Egypt, such as there was none like it, nor shall be like it any more.

7 But against any of the children of Israel shall not a dog move his tongue, against man or beast: that ye may know how that the LORD doth put a difference between the Egyptians and Israel.

8 And all these thy servants shall come down unto me, and bow down themselves unto me, saying, Get thee out, and all the people that follow thee: and after that I will go out. And he went out from Pharaoh in a great anger.

9 And the LORD said unto Moses, Pharaoh shall not hearken unto you; that my wonders may be multiplied in the land of Egypt.

10 And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.


I can't help but one more....does it trouble you at all that there isn't a shread of historical evidence for this story?
It would bug the hell out of me.

Other Comments by MaxD

4712. Comment #169557 by BillySands on April 26, 2008 at 9:46 am

 avatar
One may argue about the interpretation of the evidence, but you can't say that it isn't there.


No, there are different environments preserved in different layers. Coral and forests dont just grow overnight.
You never find out of sequence fossils

Other Comments by BillySands

4713. Comment #169562 by riandouglas on April 26, 2008 at 9:54 am

 avatarI really should have gone to bed.

txpiper: My original comment was in response to the claim that there is no geological evidence for a planet-wide flood event. Such a statement, in view of the amounts and distribution of the sediments, is rather dismissive in my view. One may argue about the interpretation of the evidence, but you can't say that it isn't there.

Right. You provided a statement concerning sedimentary rocks supporting flood geology. Your statement was shown to be false. You did not show the arguments against your statement to be false, or introduce further evidence to shore up your argument. Without doing either of those two things, your flood hypothesis is unsupported by the evidence you've brought to bear.

txpiper: As to the fossils, they only seem to complicate the conventional views which require many small or large scale flood events over long periods of time. A single species being found in a particular strata on multiple continents, seems too uniform for this to have been the case.

You have not attempted to reconcile the fossil record with you flood hypothesis. The fossil record is sorted by "age" of fossil. With fossilised entities of the same species foudn within the same age of rock. You don't find TRex fossils in the same layer of rock as a wooly mammoth.
If the flood hypothesis is to be accepted, you have to explain why you do not find the equivilent of a Trex and a wooly mammoth in the same layer of rock. You have not done this as yet.
As such, your flood hypothesis is not supported by the evidence.

If you continue to assert that the "evidence" is there, after your evidence has been shown to not be there, you will unfortunately invite ridicule, as you'll be behaving in an irrational manner.
Either add new arguments for you hypothesis, argue against the statements against your hypothesis, or introduce new evidence to support your hypothesis.
Also, if, after having your arguments being picked apart, you consistently jump to a different tack - say jumping from sedimentary rocks to the fossil record as you've done, you'll also be behaving irrationally and invite ridicule.

Basically, say why the flaws Billy, Steve, mesomodel etc have pointed out in your arguments are not flaws, or concede your position.
billy, Steve mesomodel etc will be playing by the same rules. If they can't find a flaw in your argument, they will need to conceed.

(unless of course I'm talking out my shiny metal ass)

Now I'm definitely going to bed. I hope someone can wring a concession, or at least an "I don't know" out of someone else by the time I drag myself back here. But I don't expect it to happen.

Other Comments by riandouglas

4714. Comment #169563 by Geoff on April 26, 2008 at 9:55 am

 avatar4756. Comment #169553 by txpiper

As to the fossils, they only seem to complicate the conventional views which require many small or large scale flood events over long periods of time. A single species being found in a particular strata on multiple continents, seems too uniform for this to have been the case.


Particular strata represent particular eras in geological time. So the fossils found in those strata are the ones that lived in that era.

For your flood to be true, we'd expect to find "hydrological sorting"; essentially the heavier animals at the bottom, because they sank more quickly.

Other Comments by Geoff

4715. Comment #169564 by BillySands on April 26, 2008 at 9:55 am

 avatar
And Moses and Aaron did all these wonders before Pharaoh: and the LORD hardened Pharaoh's heart, so that he would not let the children of Israel go out of his land.


I really "love" this verse. God is making Pharaoh unable to comply so he can go on an Egyptan baby killing spree.

This is the monster that remnant thinks is good and wants to suck off.

What happened to free will?

Other Comments by BillySands

4716. Comment #169565 by riandouglas on April 26, 2008 at 9:56 am

 avatar
MaxD: I can't help but one more....does it trouble you at all that there isn't a shread of historical evidence for this story?
It would bug the hell out of me.

The bible says it's all the evidence he'll ever need. For some reason that is actually good enough for him.

Other Comments by riandouglas

4717. Comment #169572 by MaxD on April 26, 2008 at 10:20 am

 avatarBilly,

God is constantly pulling this harding of hearts trick and then doing mean things or letting people be damned in the book.
In this verse in particular it is all about showing off.

"Look at this wonder! Everybody look look, dead babies!"

I can't see this God having a sincere problem with abortion.

Other Comments by MaxD

4718. Comment #169574 by SRWB on April 26, 2008 at 10:24 am

God only has a problem with Egyptians, Midianites, Philistines, assorted others and of course his own people (except Noah). Oh yes, he's the greatest "lover" of all times!

Other Comments by SRWB

4719. Comment #169578 by Diacanu on April 26, 2008 at 10:36 am

 avatarMaxD-


I can't see this God having a sincere problem with abortion.


Yeah, well, "pro-life", isn't even "pro-life", anyway.
If one of these babies they bullied some woman into having grows up into an abortion doctor, or another woman who considers abortion, they don't love it anymore.
They go right off their love list.

And how about the state executions and wars these people love so much?

Nah, it's all about controlling the pussy.
And that's all about being in charge of everything.

That, and just having an arms race of flesh.
More living flesh than the other team to shovel off to war.

That's what all the "be fruitful and multiply", shit is all about, and it's what all the "onward christian soldier", shit is all about.

It's not about "pro-life", it's hatred/jealousy of women, and controlling means of production.

Hmm, smacks of Social Darwinism when you think about it.

Other Comments by Diacanu

4720. Comment #169581 by Steve Zara on April 26, 2008 at 10:49 am

 avatar
My original comment was in response to the claim that there is no geological evidence for a planet-wide flood event. Such a statement, in view of the amounts and distribution of the sediments, is rather dismissive in my view. One may argue about the interpretation of the evidence, but you can't say that it isn't there.


It is sensible to pick the most parsimonious explanation. You could just as well say that the sediments were placed there by aliens, so the sediment is proof little green men.

As to the fossils, they only seem to complicate the conventional views which require many small or large scale flood events over long periods of time. A single species being found in a particular strata on multiple continents, seems too uniform for this to have been the case.


The conventional view doesn't require significant flood events at all. Rivers and ocean currents are more than enough to explain things.

One nice feature of early sedimentary rocks is the presence of iron oxides. This forms deposits that we mine. The explanation for this mineral is rather wonderful: the seas were originally full of iron salts, but as early life started to produce oxygen, the iron combined with it and sedimented out. This took a long time, and only when just about all of the iron had gone from the oceans into the sediments could oxygen rise significantly in the oceans and atmosphere and act as a fuel for the development of complex animal life.

The iron deposits are just one of many proofs that the flood didn't happen.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4721. Comment #169586 by MaxD on April 26, 2008 at 11:06 am

 avatartxpiper,
One may argue about the interpretation of the evidence, but you can't say that it isn't there
.

I certainly cannot argue that. Your interpretation is certainly there.

But it seems that interpretations hinges on ignoring a mass of other facts. Now you are multiplying floods. This makes no sense. It certainly isn't the way interpretations get solifiied. This multiple floods business is convenient trick that also has no evidence to support it. The evidence supports the idea that Earth has a long history of geological activity and that areas that were once underwater have been thrust upward out of it. Or it indicates changes in sea level that are quite predictable with the amoung of water currentl extant.

What about hydrological sorting? This is a hugely damning bit of physics for the flood idea. Heavy objects settle out first. Another huge problem for the theory is there is no record of massive extinction at the time most people think the flood occured. And if you know anything about marine ecology it is that is at its most spectacularly diverse in shallow waters. We would see a record of this in coral reefs. No such descrepancy has been discovered yet in this record.

Other Comments by MaxD

4722. Comment #169589 by tulum on April 26, 2008 at 11:10 am

Please peservere one and all. I understand you are all getting frustrated by R's incredible ability to avoid answering any of the important questions you are asking him (mainly by quoting mythology)- but I repeat what I stated earlier that this is a brilliant thread and all creationists should be directed to it. You have treated the idiots fairly and asked them basic questions which they should know - as they appear to have a direct line to God. I think this thread will not be wasted on some of the "soft" (is there any such thing)religious believers who may chance upon this site. You are all doing a great job.

Side issue PS My father told me he had recently gone back to religion as he heard the "voice of God". - I told him so did the Yorkshire Ripper who did Gods work by stabbing prostitutes just as jesus told him to(with some "collateral" damage) and maybe Mr Sutcliffe should be let out of prison on that basis!! - mind you winding your parents up is good fun (if you don't get stoned to death, of course)

Other Comments by tulum

4723. Comment #169594 by Elli on April 26, 2008 at 11:33 am

 avatarRemnant said:
Anyway, one of the big sticking points for these secular scientists is the something from nothing thingy. They have to find a way around this at all costs. Anything goes as long as it is not associated with God. They have to find a way for something to begin to exist from nothing.


Assuming the "something from nothing" is a legitimate issue, does not this apply to any hypothetical god also?

To answer my own question, of course it does. That is why positing something grander that creates something (i.e., a god) is not an answer to the question of the origin of "stuff" at all, it only increases the set of "stuff" that needs to be explained.

Other Comments by Elli

4724. Comment #169597 by Quine on April 26, 2008 at 11:40 am

 avatarI suspect it does some good for creationists to read this in so far as they are just victims of falsehoods spoon-fed to them at an early age. When they witness the lunatic behavior, here, of those on that side, and see the presentation of rational steps to understanding on this side, some deep self questioning may happen. Also, we happily give the creationists the exact questions to answer to convert us; here is a video that has been up for some time with a specific step by step method for converting an Atheist.

P.S. Flood?

Other Comments by Quine

4725. Comment #169607 by alovrin on April 26, 2008 at 11:55 am

OH MY Fucking Dog
Remnant you are fucking hilarious. I thought I was reading comedy, but the comedic value is in the fact that you and presumably others actually believe this stuff. Hope you dont mind if I just extract a few choice phrases just to highlight the hilarity.

In the pivotal event of societal evolution, beer was invented.


Neither the glass bottle or aluminum can had yet been invented, so it was necessary to stick pretty close to the brewery. That's how villages were formed.
Some men spent their days killing animals to barbecue at night while they were drinking beer. This was the beginning of the conservative movement.


Other men who were weaker and less skilled at hunting, learned how to live off conservatives by showing up for the BBQs every night and doing women's work like sewing, fetching and hair dressing. This was the beginning of the liberal movement. Later, some of the liberals actually became women.


This part kills me, "some of them became women" rahahahahaha.

Modern Liberals like imported beer.Conservatives drink domestic beer.


The Beer the beer,,, hahahahahahahah

Conservatives have principles, believe in a Creator, and the rule of law. They practice charity and give to the poor, normally through their churches. When in doubt on an issue, they check both the Bible and the Constitution, which they use as a constant reference in a changing world. They believe in the concept of truth.

Liberals do not have principles, except for their dedication to stealing productivity of conservatives and undermining principled references such as the Bible and Constitution


rahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahah

Conservatives believe in self defense, both at home and abroad. They own guns and use them to discourage liberals and other common criminals. They provide guns to the armed forces to discourage foreign liberals and other foreign criminals.

Liberals do not believe in conservative self defense. They disarm conservatives, and then attack them with impunity by liberal armies with guns. King George, Hitler and Stalin were all liberals


stop it hahahahahahahahahstop itrahahahahahahahahahahahaha

hahahahahahahahahahahhaahhhahahahahahahahahahahaaaaaaaaaaahahahaha
oh deaar oh dear
remnant( a curiously appropriate non de plume) I dont know how to tell you this but my guess is the author of your TWO theories is in all probability the same person.
By posting this here maybe you thought you were being clever in a slightly contemptuous way. I doubt if you actually believe it, its very funny though, but no one except the most credulous would find it anything but a pisstake.

So is the author himself a conservative beer drinker?
lets take a poll?
By the way Remnant do you fart at the dinner table?
Thats a conservative beer drinking trait as well you know.
Better get to it.
slurp.... fart, sluurp ...fart.... belch...slurp ...fart.
hahahahahahahaahahahaha

Other Comments by alovrin

4726. Comment #169609 by txpiper on April 26, 2008 at 11:58 am

"It is sensible to pick the most parsimonious explanation. You could just as well say that the sediments were placed there by aliens, so the sediment is proof little green men."

It has to be acknowledged that the sediments are there, and sediments are by and large formed by materials suspended in floodwaters.


"The conventional view doesn't require significant flood events at all. Rivers and ocean currents are more than enough to explain things."

Rivers and ocean currents might explain sedimentary formations, but fossil preservation requires the rapid deposition of mud or water-born particles, which can't readily be associated with river and ocean currents.

================

"Now you are multiplying floods. This makes no sense. It certainly isn't the way interpretations get solifiied. This multiple floods business is convenient trick that also has no evidence to support it."

Well I might agree with you, but the multiple floods idea is part of establishment geology. Fossil remains are only preserved in sedimentary "rock". If the same species is found preserved on different continents and in the same strata, then there either has to be one flood which was world-wide or multiple floods which occurred quite distant from each other.

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4727. Comment #169610 by Steve Zara on April 26, 2008 at 12:02 pm

 avatarComment #169609 by txpiper
It has to be acknowledged that the sediments are there, and sediments are by and large formed by materials suspended in floodwaters.


No, this simply isn't true.

Considerable amounts of sediments form from organic material that constantly rains down from the upper layers of the ocean. And, as I explained, there was considerable sedimentation of iron oxide in the early oceans.

Well I might agree with you, but the multiple floods idea is part of establishment geology.


No, this is simply false. Just consider the vast amount of sediments that, say, the Amazon river deposits into the Atlantic each year.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4728. Comment #169614 by Quetzalcoatl on April 26, 2008 at 12:06 pm

 avatartxpiper-

If the same species is found preserved on different continents and in the same strata, then there either has to be one flood which was world-wide or multiple floods which occurred quite distant from each other.


You forgot option 3- that the continents were joined then subsequently separated as a consequence of continental drift.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

4729. Comment #169624 by mesomodel on April 26, 2008 at 12:21 pm

 avatarYou also forgot anti-option 1 and 2: A flood is not required to preserve fossils. In other words, your option 1 and 2 are not valid, because they are based on a false premise.

Other Comments by mesomodel

4730. Comment #169683 by BillySands on April 26, 2008 at 2:39 pm

 avatar
It has to be acknowledged that the sediments are there, and sediments are by and large formed by materials suspended in floodwaters.


Please pay attention. Different fossil habitats are preseved in different layers. Not all sedimentary rock is deposited by water either. There are plenty of fossils in desert deposits - like this fighting pair of Velociraptor and Protoceratops. http://www.dino-nakasato.org/en/special97/Fight-e.shtml

Then the killer, dinosaur nests in different layers. Do you think they somehow nested on rafts?

Other Comments by BillySands

4731. Comment #169691 by melissajoy1234 on April 26, 2008 at 3:07 pm

I hope Mr. Dawkins reads this. I am an ignorant American who had never heard of you before I watched "Expelled". I haven't read your books (yet) nor had I heard of most of the people in the movie (pretty much all of them but Ben Stein). Again, I'm an ignorant American woman. But one comment you made in the interview that really struck a cord with me: you read a portion from your book that basically went on a rampage of the God of the Old Testament and you said some pretty harsh things about him. Immediately I realized what was going on. . .no matter how much Scientists, Atheists, Agnostics, Christians, Jews, or anyone else for that matter try to argue fact and fiction, one thing stands true: it is all a spiritual problem, not one of intellect, religion, or politics. This rang true in your very words against the God who did INDEED create you and the earth and all that is in it. Your apparent hostility towards this seemingly harsh God (who, if you read the Old Testament, is seen repeatedly over and over again forgiving and redeeming His people, even when they didn't deserve it), merely showed me that something within your spirit is striving against God. It is a spiritual issue, Mr. Dawkins, and I pray that you find peace with Him and with yourself before your final day on this earth.

Again, I may not have the degrees you have, the intelligent brain and abilities to reason as you, or even the desire to learn as much as you. But you said in your interview that if you died and you did meet God face to face, you would ask Him why he kept himself so hidden. I think His response will be "Richard, I was right there all the time. It was YOU who kept ME hidden, remember?"

I'm not here to argue. I really just want to open people's eyes. Whether or not the producers were deceptive in gaining your interviews, why is that an issue? Would you have said something different had you known what your words were going to be used for? Please step back for a moment out of the chaos and lies of this world, and search your heart. I think you will find that peace you've been searching for in your life is not as far as you would think. . .He's been waiting for you for a long time. . .

Other Comments by melissajoy1234

4732. Comment #169693 by newskin on April 26, 2008 at 3:17 pm

 avatarmelissajoy1234

Oh dear, where to begin... Firstly, Expelled is a gross distortion of the truth and its producers are documented liars. If your only experience of Richard Dawkins is through this film, then you should read The God Delusion before forming any opinions as this book represents his true thoughts and not the distortions of Ben Stein.

If you are in the business of 'eye opening' (and this is commendable) then you have nothing to lose by doing some reading into what atheists are really saying. You are clearly not as ignorant as you profess, and i think it would be of tremendous benefit to you if you balance your argument and did not allow yourself to be overly swayed by blatant propaganda such as Expelled.

Other Comments by newskin

4733. Comment #169694 by tulum on April 26, 2008 at 3:21 pm

It really is a tag team isn't it folks.Please carry on as before (and melissa it might have been useful to read this post from the start - just a hint which I have given another creationist). I have a feeling you may be asked to justify what you believe.

Other Comments by tulum

4734. Comment #169697 by tulum on April 26, 2008 at 3:28 pm

Side issue PS Quetzacoatl - South American mythology rules. My wife and I did a trip around (slightly different-I know) the Mayan sites of Chichen,Tulum, Uxmal and the Puuc route.

Other Comments by tulum

4735. Comment #169698 by mesomodel on April 26, 2008 at 3:29 pm

 avatarMelissajoy,


Again, I'm an ignorant American woman.



The good news is that ignorance is curable. The bad news is that it can be fatal. You seem to be an intelligent person. Pick up some books, take a few science, philosophy and logic courses at your local college, or even watch a few shows on the Discovery Channel or National Geographic. Learn about the world around you. Then, apply what you've learned and see if you can reconcile it with your god.

Other Comments by mesomodel

4736. Comment #169699 by Corylus on April 26, 2008 at 3:29 pm

 avatarMelissa
Your comment was not directed at me so I won't take apart all of it. I hear that you don't want to argue. That's cool :-)

One thing intrigued me though.
Whether or not the producers were deceptive in gaining your interviews, why is that an issue?
Don't you get cross when you are lied to? I know I do. In fact when people lie to me I start to wonder about their characters and their motivations.

In any event, it was not just that the interviews were obtained dishonestly, the manner in which Dawkins and others were portrayed was dishonest and not representative of their positions.

Don't you get cross when your views are misrepresented to others? I know I do.

Other Comments by Corylus

4737. Comment #169701 by MaxD on April 26, 2008 at 3:48 pm

 avatarMelissaJoy said,

Again, I may not have the degrees you have, the intelligent brain and abilities to reason as you, or even the desire to learn as much as you. But you said in your interview that if you died and you did meet God face to face, you would ask Him why he kept himself so hidden. I think His response will be "Richard, I was right there all the time. It was YOU who kept ME hidden, remember?"


I don't know what Dawkins will say to that response, but mine will be (before the angels come and toss me into the fiery lake)
"Uh...how did you get this job again? I think you are underqualified or something."

Other Comments by MaxD

4738. Comment #169704 by AllanW on April 26, 2008 at 3:59 pm

 avatarHi Melissajoy1234.

I know your post was directed at RD but I'd like to comment if I may?

You seem like a nice lady and the responses so far have been nice and polite so I'll just reiterate a few points they made and add a couple of my own.

You call yourself ignorant but I'm sure you're being a little harsh there. Read a few books written by RD or on science in general and I'm sure you'd enjoy them.

As for God's response should RD ever meet him at the end of his life; well, that's the crux isn't it? How are you so sure that he will? Atheists don't believe that his existence has been shown to be remotely likely so far so go about there lives on the basis that all we have is this one life so we'd better make the best of it. Why do you think he exists?

Most people here don't look to argue for the sake of it either; we want to discuss things that we feel are important but do it in a way that stresses the factual evidence not just our feelings; in that regard, believing that RD is searching (and failing) to find peace in his life so far is a statement that should be backed-up by something more substantial than 'I think it'. Would you care to discuss it a little more?

Other Comments by AllanW

4739. Comment #169705 by mikejswalker on April 26, 2008 at 4:02 pm

All hail Humph. Utterly deadpan. A lovely man.


Melissa,
If i die and meet your God i'm going to kick him in the nuts and ask him what the fook he was playing at.

Other Comments by mikejswalker

4740. Comment #169707 by Diacanu on April 26, 2008 at 4:07 pm

 avatarmelissajoy1234-


I think His response will be "Richard, I was right there all the time. It was YOU who kept ME hidden, remember?"


Very sweet.
Like the woman who imagined it.
Sadly, I can find your cuddly personal imaginary friend nowhere in scripture.

People seem to create God in their own image.
Which to me, would seem to make the Bible irrelevant.
If people are going to create God to suit them anyway, then really all Christianity would seem to be is a tent to have a support group for those whose imaginary friend has the same name, even if for them, he's a pink rabbit, or a blue giraffe.

And in the end, all this does noting whatever to tell me if there is a creator of the universe, and what his/her nature might be.

Fire and brimstone angry Christian God?
Marshmallowy cuddly Melissa's Christian God?
Or, some other God entirely?
Allah? Thor? Zeus?
That Melissa's God is marshmallowy, and cuddly, and deliver's fuzzy fortune cookie little sentiments, doesn't mean that's objectively his/her nature, no matter how preferable it may be.

Preference does nothing to settle such issues.

Given all religions, and denominations of those religions claim the same level of truth you do, and with no other evidence than books of myth, one must rely on logic, reason, and the scientific method.

And they reveal a world with no God at all.

And preference does nothing to change that.

Other Comments by Diacanu

4741. Comment #169709 by MaxD on April 26, 2008 at 4:09 pm

 avatarAll the talk of baking and such allow me to share what I just did.
I made a green chile/chipped beef corn bread.
Hmmmmmm...mmm...good.

Other Comments by MaxD

4742. Comment #169713 by Cartomancer on April 26, 2008 at 4:12 pm

 avatarI really am baffled as to what Remnant was hoping to achieve with his very strange post about liberals, conservatives and beer. Surely it's some kind of joke? The phrasing seems consistent with an attempt at humour, but what it says isn't actually funny. Not in the slightest. It isn't really offensive, because it's too silly to be offensive, but it isn't funny either. It seems to serve no purpose whatsoever.

Now, don't get me wrong, I have encountered this brand of boorish philistine americana before. Usually it conveys the impression of having been written by a lumpen, semi-literate maniac who has to stop to wipe the spittle from his keyboard every five minutes. But Remnant's piece seemed to be entirely lacking in such marks of childish frenzy. I might almost have thought it a satirical piece, but it was so devoid of wit and cleverness - even crashingly poor attempts at wit and cleverness - that I am all but compelled to abandon the notion. I can't bring myself to believe that anyone with opposable thumbs would take such a tract seriously either - even someone like Remnant, whose idea of ethical debate is the competitive regurgitation of bible quotes.

And why was the second part essentially an abridged version of the first part with a couple of extra sentences tacked on? That really is very confusing too.

Perhaps I simply lack the analytical tools with which I might understand the workings of such a tiny mind. Perhaps there is nothing there to understand at all. Perhaps I should just take the Alovrin approach, pretend it's meant in all seriousness, and laugh along anyway...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

4743. Comment #169715 by Steve Zara on April 26, 2008 at 4:17 pm

 avatarComment #169691 by melissajoy1234

But one comment you made in the interview that really struck a cord with me: you read a portion from your book that basically went on a rampage of the God of the Old Testament and you said some pretty harsh things about him.


If you think about it, it wasn't really Richard who said those harsh things, it was the writers of the Old Testament. What I believe Richard was doing was showing the inconsistency of the idea of God - the Old Testament God is clearly not the same as the New Testament God.

I think His response will be "Richard, I was right there all the time. It was YOU who kept ME hidden, remember?"


The God of the Old Testament was supposed to be a very visible being who interfered in the affairs of mankind. But where has he gone? Now we have theologists reducing him to some vague first cause, some "necessary being". It seems to me we have a homeopathic god - diluted by reason and observation to the point where he is no longer there.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4744. Comment #169718 by Corylus on April 26, 2008 at 4:21 pm

 avatarMax
Yes... tis good to bake.
----

Cartomancer
I read it as a huge 'distraction' piece. He was getting consistently asked a very specific question that he did not wish to answer.

However, he was so enjoying playing with and denigrating the people on here that he did not want to give up.

It is like talking to a child who you suspect of misbehaviour. "Did you kick your sister" you ask?
"Oh look at that cat in the park across the road!" they say.

I don't doubt that he found it amusing though, but then I think that laughing at other people (rather than with them) is what gets his funny bone.

That piece was also about putting people into boxes so they could be laughed at.

Other Comments by Corylus

4745. Comment #169722 by Bonzai on April 26, 2008 at 4:26 pm

It seems to me we have a homeopathic god - diluted by reason and observation to the point where he is no longer there.


Not a bad evolution, to go from a hemorrhoidic,--pain in the arse,--God to a homeopathic one,

Other Comments by Bonzai

4746. Comment #169724 by Cartomancer on April 26, 2008 at 4:28 pm

 avatar
I read it as a huge 'distraction' piece.
Hmm, maybe you're right. It's certainly stopped me thinking about his pettifogging religious inanities. Something of a foot-shot perhaps in that now we're wondering quite what sort of mind resorts to that as their smokescreen, but I guess there are mysteries beyond the ken of science after all...

Is it baking night on RD.net now then? Shall I share my special recipe for walnut cake or bread and butter pudding?

Other Comments by Cartomancer

4747. Comment #169726 by MaxD on April 26, 2008 at 4:30 pm

 avatarCartomancer,
I think Corylus is probably onto something with her explanation. Here in the states those two "narratives" would be resoundingly funny to a group called "dittoheads" (these are Rush Limbaugh's listeners). Oh it might also appeal to ScooterNYC. But what I think it was intended to do was bait us into defending liberalism, leftist policies, and distract from the discussion of bibilical inerrancy.

Other Comments by MaxD

4748. Comment #169729 by Steve Zara on April 26, 2008 at 4:33 pm

 avatar
Is it baking night on RD.net now then? Shall I share my special recipe for walnut cake or bread and butter pudding?


How about both? In return, I shall describe my highly evolved (and very simple) bread-making technique.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

4749. Comment #169732 by Cartomancer on April 26, 2008 at 4:37 pm

 avatarWell, if others think there is a constituency for that kind of thing as humour then who am I to reject it out of hand? It never ceases to amaze me just how different some people's sense of humour is from mine. A salutary lesson in human diversity perhaps...

Could I ask Remnant where people like me who don't drink alcohol at all fit into the theory though? Actually, scratch that, the less encouragement we give him the better...

Other Comments by Cartomancer

4750. Comment #169734 by Bonzai on April 26, 2008 at 4:39 pm

Coylus beats me to it. I was about to say he got into this whole side issue on conservatives v.s liberals as a way to avoid answering the flood question.

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