Expelled OverviewExpelled Exposed is a new National Center for Science Education website that counters the Ben Stein/Premise Media anti-evolution movie, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. It is available at www.expelledexposed.com. Currently in a preliminary stage, Expelled Exposed consists of a collection of links containing the most basic and important resources for teachers, scientists, reporters, and members of the public who seek information now to respond to this movie. On April 16, days before the movie Expelled is premiered on April 18, NCSE will launch the full version of the website. In its final form, Expelled Exposed will examine claims made in the movie and explain, neatly and concisely, why each is an exaggeration, a misrepresentation, or a fabrication. NCSE encourages all interested parties to bookmark the site, and pass the link on to friends and family, so that by the time the creationist movie is released, www.expelledexposed.com will be the most popular Expelled site on the internet!
My take on Mathis is that he's an opportunist. He says and does whatever he thinks necessary to get his film made and now promoted. My guess on the latest flap about tossing PZ out of the screening but not Dawkins was PZ's original assumption that they just didn't notice Dawkins there, and only after the fact rationalizing the whole affair with plausible (and ever changing) reasons.
For my part, the moment I sat down with Stein (with Mathis there) and he asked me that question about firing people for expressing dissenting views a dozen times, I realized that I was being manipulated to give certain answers they were looking for me to give. I asked them both, several times, if they had anything else to ask me about evolutionary theory or Intelligent Design. In frustration I finally said something like "Do you have any other questions to ask me or do you keep asking me this question in hopes that I'll give a different answer?"
That's when Stein finally changed the subject and asked about social Darwinism. We got into a lengthy discussion about Adam Smith, which he seemed surprised to learn that I seemed to know more about the great economist than he did! For example, he didn't seem to even realize that Smith's first book was "The Theory of Moral Sentiments", and that Smith didn't trust businessmen any more than he trusted government bureaucrats, and that we need a mix of enlightened self-interest and strictly enforced rules of trade. But as I noted in my review of the film for Scientific American, Stein was especially displeased with my linkage of Smith and Darwin, that Darwin read Smith as an undergraduate at Edinburgh, etc. I also pointed out to him that Darwin has been used and abused by ideologues of all stripes, and that in any case that is all separate from whether the science is good or not. That seemed to tax his thinking too much, because shortly after he announced that he had to take a rest break and he just got up and went out to his car for about 20 minutes! Seriously, he just went out to the street next to our office and sat in the rent car they had! I couldn't believe it. We had only been going for about 30 minutes and he was tired? And this was in the late morning. I joked with Mathis that, this being Hollywood and all, I wondered if Stein was out doing a line of cocaine.... Mathis assured me that Stein doesn't do drugs, but I found the whole thing to be quite odd. Then Stein came back in and that's when we walked around the office with the handheld camera to get some B-Roll footage, and they showed him asking me about my books, and that's where I told him I thought ID was much closer to pseudoscience than science. Then he asked me AGAIN if I thought people should be fired....
The whole experience was a bit surreal, and I found Stein to be a somewhat disagreeable man. He tried to come off like he was a star and that I should have been star-struck, and when I wasn't that seemed to get under his skin a bit. For example, when he came back into the office from resting in his car, I said something like "gentlemen, I've got work to do so I'd like to wrap this thing up now," he looked at me like "hey, don't you realize who I am and that you should be grateful to be talking to me?" I let him off the hook a bit in my review about his questionable comment about blacks, but I suspect he has some racist tendencies.
102. Comment #150116 by Raiko on March 26, 2008 at 1:13 pm
103. Comment #150190 by NormanDoering on March 26, 2008 at 2:41 pm
If anyone is interested, you can ask the screenwriter for Expelled questions:Can anyone come up with five good questions?
This guy was able to come up with six. But so far no one else has been able to rise to the challenge. And no cheating, folks. Come up with them on your own. I'll respond to them in a blog post. BTW: I won't answer stupid questions I know you're all burning to ask, such as, "Why aren't you smarter and more honest?" Oh, and please e-mail them to me rather than posting as a comment. I don't want to lose them in the shuffle.
104. Comment #150214 by peahix on March 26, 2008 at 3:19 pm
re comment 104, i like how kevin says to email him the questions instead of posting them in the blog... assuring that he'll be able to simply pick and choose the questions he wants to answer, without anyone else seeing the questions he decided not to answer...105. Comment #150219 by jonnymac27 on March 26, 2008 at 3:25 pm
If I'm not mistaken, The Killers are a very religious band, Mormon actually:106. Comment #150223 by secondsoprano on March 26, 2008 at 3:30 pm
if you believe in evolution, you're a homosexual
107. Comment #150344 by mcornwell on March 26, 2008 at 6:28 pm
Great post Josh108. Comment #150422 by 24fps on March 26, 2008 at 9:59 pm
I think it's obvious that Expelled is a wrongheaded and biased documentary that preaches to the converted. I also think that many commenters underestimate it.109. Comment #150436 by dlitt on March 26, 2008 at 11:03 pm
Comment #149466 by EKinateder on March 25, 2008 at 4:23 pmThat would be most fortuitous if the other movie was 'Religulous.' :-)
If you must see this piece of trash for yourself:
Most theaters in the USA do not check tickets once you've purchased a ticket and entered the main hallway. Purchase a ticket to another movie and attend this one instead.
110. Comment #150624 by Alkal on March 27, 2008 at 7:31 am
Are they going to teach the "controversy" that Earth is in fact standing on a giant invisible tortoise which is on a giant tortoise which is on a tortoise.. and it is tortoises all the way down.. I mean given a sufficient amount of creativity that can be a very good explanation for why the earth does not fall off... Tortoise balance and Gravity, big science and the conspiracy to teach gravity in public school.... then we could have the conspiracy to brush your teeth in the morning...( Big toothpaste vs the benevolent stinky mouth germs or some thing...) and there could be other consipracies too..111. Comment #150664 by Border Collie on March 27, 2008 at 8:30 am
112. Comment #150738 by Stella on March 27, 2008 at 10:44 am
Eugenics & Planned Parenthood?!
Eugenics is mentioned as an "extension" of Darwinism, and they even tar Planned Parenthood as being founded by a woman who was somehow associated with Eugenics (I can't remember the name). It's another disgusting, underhanded swipe, which could only be accepted so quickly in an extremely uninformed and sympathetic audience.
113. Comment #150769 by Amused Muse on March 27, 2008 at 12:05 pm
114. Comment #150793 by Jon_Sociologist on March 27, 2008 at 12:26 pm
Comment #150432 by clearmind:
Freedom of speech. Freedom of making films?
Comment #150432 by clearmind:
Why bother telling us not see the movie.
Comment #150432 by clearmind:
Like jon says:
I said Planets CREATED CHEMICALS, NOT THE STARS.
So stars cannot create but the planets can CREATE(!). THE MAGIC WORD IS CREATION. HE IS THE FIRST ONE I GUESS USING CREATION FOR EVOLUTION.
Comment #135126 by Jon_Sociologist on The Salamander's Tale thread:
Astrophysical theories show us how organic chemicals are a common by product of stars. Stars that existed prior to our solar system exploded seeding our solar system with the chemicals see so prevalent throughout our solar system.
Comment #149524 by Jon_Sociologist on the Two More Fleas thread at 8:33 pm on March 25, 2008:
You're an idiot. I ask you where I said that planets created organic chemicals and you point to a post where I said that stars did it. For anyone else who would like to understand just how much of an idiot clearmind/wooter is, here's a link to the post he just referred to: Comment 139439 by Jon_Sociologist on the Salamander thread.
Comment #150432 by clearmind:
THE MAGIC WORD IS CREATION. HE IS THE FIRST ONE I GUESS USING CREATION FOR EVOLUTION.
Comment #149524 by Jon_Sociologist on the Two More Fleas thread at 8:33 pm on March 25, 2008:Comment #149436 by clearmind:
MANIPULATION, OR DEFINATION AND MTATION TYPO OR YOU CANNOTEXPLAIN eVOLUTION BY LOGIC SO YOU ARE MAKING A U TURN? i GUESS IT IS QUITE CLEAR.
That's what you count as a victory? You are even more stupid and pathetic than I thought. You think that my use of the word 'created' as a descriptive for the process of synthesis involved in nuclear fusion implies that your creationist garbage convinces me? Someone 'created' my house by putting a bunch of wood together. Stars 'create' helium by fusing two hydrogen atoms together. You think this is some great propaganda victory for you? Are you trying to demonstrate just how pathetic creationists can get? Or are you just trying to bait me by insulting me again? U-turn my ass.
Comment #150432 by clearmind:
they are all required to be formed in a certain sequence sticking to their left sides only by CHANCES AND COLLISION. Any enough figures in math to beat this odd?
Comment #150432 by clearmind:
In a commonsense approach, logic says it is much more logical to say God did it than evolution made it.
Comment #150432 by clearmind:
(Please, don't pay to go see it.)
Again pushing people? It is not good. We do not live in 1984 of George Orwell, right?
115. Comment #150810 by kevinmillerxi on March 27, 2008 at 12:44 pm
Re: comment 105, I made the e-mail request out of convenience, not deception. I just don't want anyone saying, "Why didn't you answer my five questions?" So just to be completely transparent, post your questions to the blog AND to my e-mail. As for deleting comments, I think a visit to my blog will assure you that I do not have a problem with comments that don't support my point of view. I will confess to deleting one or two comments early on, but merely b/c they were advertising other blogs rather than actually engaging with what I'd written.116. Comment #150927 by kehills on March 27, 2008 at 4:56 pm
Josh,117. Comment #150960 by MaxD on March 27, 2008 at 8:00 pm
118. Comment #150969 by Jon_Sociologist on March 27, 2008 at 8:32 pm
119. Comment #150973 by Dr Benway on March 27, 2008 at 9:02 pm
120. Comment #150976 by MPhil on March 27, 2008 at 9:17 pm
121. Comment #151179 by irate_atheist on March 28, 2008 at 8:39 am
122. Comment #151260 by antifaithstl on March 28, 2008 at 10:41 am
I'm sure there will be a copy on BitTorrent soon enough, so you won't have to give these dickweeds any of your hard earned moolah.123. Comment #151262 by epeeist on March 28, 2008 at 10:46 am
Is it just me, I detect a significant improvement in spelling and grammar in this post.
Jon, you are losing it. Take it easy and check your answers again?
124. Comment #151312 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 1:19 pm
MUSIC (well, sort of) UPDATE
"A Major Modern Atheist1.1 : an MP3"
Words : Cartomancer;
Music : some other guy...
"EXPELLED : another hole in their socks."
(scroll down to the Standalone Player)
125. Comment #151409 by Steve Zara on March 28, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Comment #151392 by clearmindYou are already in big trouble with Expelled movie, and now you are adding up and making it faster to close down the evolution theory.
126. Comment #151416 by Teratornis on March 28, 2008 at 4:49 pm
Anyhow. I could go on but I'll spare y'all. There's a rich and in depth literature about the history of eugenics in America, and how it affects us and our science to this day (much of the argument around eugenics can be heard echoed in IVF, genetic enhancement, transhumanism and cloning debates).
127. Comment #151545 by clearthinker on March 29, 2008 at 12:47 am
Thanks Josh for an interesting review - I have not seen the film yet but gather from interviews and the title that the major premise of the film is that those academics who question Darwinism or even hint at promoting ID are 'expelled' from the academic community. In all the reviews of the film, including this one, no-one seems to have addressed this question. Is questioning Darwinism or advocating ID the unforgiveable sin which will result in you either losing your job or not getting tenure? Have people been expelled for this? And if so does the New Atheism support expelling people on these grounds?128. Comment #151548 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 12:55 am
Comment #151545 by clearthinkerAnd if so does the New Atheism support expelling people on these grounds?
129. Comment #151557 by black wolf on March 29, 2008 at 1:24 am
I'm still trying to understand how Hitler's autobahns managed to avoid the same guilt by association that dogs eugenics and swastikas. When General Eisenhower surveyed the ruins of the crushed Nazi war machine, he was so impressed by what was left of the autobahns constructed by the tyrant he had just defeated, that he imported the loser's idea to the U.S. after becoming President. Since WWII, automobiles have killed more Americans than Nazi bullets and bombs did, and superhighways were instrumental in enabling America to expand automobile use to the level of personal necessity, which enabled the current level of automotive violence (another 9/11 every month). So one might say Hitler got his revenge.
130. Comment #151672 by Alrischa on March 29, 2008 at 7:12 am
131. Comment #151673 by matt_shute-07 on March 29, 2008 at 7:15 am
132. Comment #151786 by AfraidToDie on March 29, 2008 at 11:36 am
133. Comment #151545 by clearthinker
I also saw an interesting interview with Stein - what do you think of this?
133. Comment #152162 by eljeffe on March 30, 2008 at 10:06 am
mark mathis and his similarly unsufferable wife, dianne anderson (an albuquerque tv news anchor) had a morning drive-time fm radio show for a short time. actually, mark kind of weaseled his way into prominence on the show, starting as an occasional guest. the bizarre conservative/religious right arguments and horribly twisted logic that spewed was simply mind boggling.134. Comment #152200 by Bucky O'Hare on March 30, 2008 at 12:25 pm
135. Comment #152475 by kehills on March 31, 2008 at 6:00 am
I haven't watched the film, but eugenics? Holocaust? How does one associate them with Darwinism?
136. Comment #152662 by andyinsdca on March 31, 2008 at 10:04 am
137. Comment #152698 by Jon_Sociologist on March 31, 2008 at 11:20 am
Comment #151049 by clearmind:
Jon, you are so tense. Don't you see that it is over. I really appreciate in my heart for your answers, but no USE.
Comment #151049 by clearmind:
There is no logic in evolution and neither in your answers.
Comment #151049 by clearmind:
Atheist Gestapo is not needed to be sent. JOSH IS REALLY GOOD AT BANNING IF HE DID. I WAS BANNED FROM THIS WEB PAGE TWO TIMES ALREADY.
Comment #151049 by clearmind:
Now the same idea is put forward: don't go to see that movie. This is not western philosophy that is based on freedom.
Comment #151392 by clearmind:
You are already in big trouble with Expelled movie, and now you are adding up and making it faster to close down the evolution theory.
Comment #151667 by clearmind:
Logic has done what it was supposed to do.
138. Comment #152708 by Jon_Sociologist on March 31, 2008 at 11:40 am
Comment #151416 by Teratornis:
The interesting thing about eugenics before Hitler is that it all made perfect sense, back when humans were still able to think rationally about it. Why wouldn't everything we learned by breeding animals apply to humans?
Comment #151416 by Teratornis:
Once genetic engineering enables us to perform artificial selection at the level of individual genes (the clean way) rather than upon whole organisms (the horrifically brutal way), humans will embrace a new kind of eugenics. After all, everybody wants to get better, and once getting better becomes a real possibility, people will take a deep breath and get over their Hitler hysteria.
Comment #151416 by Teratornis:
I'm still trying to understand how Hitler's autobahns managed to avoid the same guilt by association that dogs eugenics and swastikas.
139. Comment #152712 by Steve Zara on March 31, 2008 at 11:52 am
Dogs for example are about as smart as a rather dull wolf puppy.
140. Comment #152725 by annabanana on March 31, 2008 at 12:11 pm
I'm going to need quite a bit of convincing to believe that. Dogs have been bred to retain the mental flexibility of young wolves throughout their lives, and some breeds of dog can be very intelligent indeed, learning hundreds of different commands.
141. Comment #152730 by Jon_Sociologist on March 31, 2008 at 12:16 pm
Comment #152712 by Steve Zara:Dogs for example are about as smart as a rather dull wolf puppy.
I'm going to need quite a bit of convincing to believe that. Dogs have been bred to retain the mental flexibility of young wolves throughout their lives, and some breeds of dog can be very intelligent indeed, learning hundreds of different commands.
142. Comment #152754 by Teratornis on March 31, 2008 at 1:13 pm
I see two problems here.
The first is that, when humans take control of the reproduction of a species, the species seems to become substantially less intelligent. Dogs for example are about as smart as a rather dull wolf puppy.
The second is that pretty much any method of enacting eugenics involves ruthless barbarity. Involuntarily sterilization is a gross violation of an individuals rights.
Comment #151416 by Teratornis:
I'm still trying to understand how Hitler's autobahns managed to avoid the same guilt by association that dogs eugenics and swastikas.
Dogs and highways may kill people,
but these people are not unwilling victims of a systematic attempt to annihilate a population.
Objectionable groups have adopted swastikas as a means of identifying themselves as sympathetic to the particular Nazi ideas that modern society finds repulsive, such as racism, eugenics, and societal insularity.
143. Comment #153016 by cutekawaii on March 31, 2008 at 9:40 pm
144. Comment #153028 by JackBlair on March 31, 2008 at 10:43 pm
As far as the songs in the movie, they are covered under licensing. Movie studios (or whatever type of business) pays for a license, and they can use the material covered by the license. Common practice.145. Comment #153706 by Christopher Davis on April 1, 2008 at 9:44 pm
146. Comment #154128 by rod-the-farmer on April 2, 2008 at 6:17 pm
147. Comment #154238 by Jon_Sociologist on April 3, 2008 at 12:59 am
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
If your claim is true, it supports the claim that genes have some influence over intelligence.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
If genes have some influence over intelligence, then humans could speed up the evolution of intelligence by selecting for it more efficiently than natural selection does.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
If dogs are less intelligent than wolves, then that might mean humans happened to select for lower intelligence as they bred dogs.
Most likely, humans selected for loyalty rather than intelligence, and if dogs became less intelligent than wolves, it was probably a side effect of selecting for loyalty and
other desirable behaviors.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
I agree that any form of selection must be ruthless to be effective, but what about the rights of the unborn to live lives as free from genetic disadvantage as we can make them? Inflicting the unborn with preventable defects strikes me as pretty ruthless too.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
I think there is something disingenuous about reflexively defending the reproductive rights of people we ourselves would not want to be, nor would we want our own children to be like them.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
Also, don't suppose for an instant that involuntary sterilization has ended. There are some people who would like to reproduce, but they are unable to convince anyone to have sex with them. They are, in effect, being involuntarily sterilized.
Do you believe that when a person gets rejected by every potential mate, his individual rights have been grossly violated?
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
I don't see much difference between being judged unworthy to reproduce by all potential mates, vs. being judged unworthy by the state.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
Either way, outside forces are thwarting the individual's "right" to reproduce.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
If anything, I'd expect the state to have some potential judge the issue more rationally.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
I understand the slippery slope argument against giving governments that much power, but just having governments is itself a slippery slope.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
Seriously, the next time we hear a theist claiming that atheism is wrong because Hitler was an atheist, I suggest we whip out some archival photos of Hitler enjoying his dog, and ask whether this proves dog ownership is also wrong.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:but these people are not unwilling victims of a systematic attempt to annihilate a population.
People who ride bicycles on U.S. highways might beg to differ.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
There are some drivers who quite clearly want to terrorize cyclists off "their" roads.
Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
It's a mystery as to why only some of Hitler's legacy gets tarred by argumentum ad Hitlerum.
148. Comment #154247 by Jon_Sociologist on April 3, 2008 at 1:36 am
Comment #153706 by Christopher Davis:
I agree. Involutary sterilazation is a violation of individual human rights, but an intregal part of human civilizations has always been the limiting of selected individual rights toward the goal of bettering society.
Comment #153706 by Christopher Davis:
As Dr. Benway commented, most rational people don't really see the upside of allowing mentally retarded people to have children.
Comment #153706 by Christopher Davis:
In cases such as these, I believe that society must consider the future welfare of a child born to mentally retarded parents before declaring that involuntary sterilazation is a "gross violation of human rights."
149. Comment #154425 by Zamboro on April 3, 2008 at 8:06 am
150. Comment #154451 by Christopher Davis on April 3, 2008 at 9:39 am
101. Comment #150025 by Wosret on March 26, 2008 at 12:04 pm
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