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Tuesday, March 25, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments |

Document Expelled Overview

by Josh Timonen, RichardDawkins.net

Since I was one of the group who watched Expelled at the Mall of America last week with Richard Dawkins and (not!) PZ Myers, I thought I should do my part to expose the movie for what it is. Richard and PZ Myers have written responses, a conversation between them about their experience is now online, and over one hundred blog posts have appeared on the subject. I think the best contribution I can make to all of this is to give you as detailed an account of the actual film as I can, so that you don't have to give Mark Mathis any money in order to know what Expelled is all about.

Expelled is said to be opening in 1,000 theaters nationwide on April 18th. Please don't give them any of your money to see it. If it tanks in the theaters, and you have the stomach for such garbage, I'm sure you'll be able to see it soon by other means that don't involve supporting Creationists.

Before the film
Mathis came out before the film and told everyone that the showing was being projected from a laptop, and that on previous screenings this had caused the film to appear dark. He assured us that this had been corrected this time, and that he thought they had it looking pretty good. When the film started, it looked really dark. So dark, that you couldn't even really see the scenes in some shots. Stein's voiceover audio was also distorted (too much gain). It really was an unprofessional showing, and a terribly unprofessional film, aside from the content.

Music
First off: Either Expelled has a disproportionately-large music budget (for how bad of a film it is), or they are using songs they haven't paid for in their Director's Cut private screenings (that may be changed before the official nationwide release). John Lennon's "Imagine" is played (original version) over B&W scenes of what looked like communist China, with a parade of soldiers. The lyrics to the song were subtitled on the bottom of the screen. I think I remember a shot of Stalin saluting somewhere in here as well. The part of the song played was of course "...and no religion too...", implying that no religion equals communist China. Does Yoko know about this? I doubt she'd be pleased.

The Killers' song "All These Things That I've Done" was used at the end of the film. The part of the song used was the bridge with the lyrics "I've got soul but I'm not a soldier". I'm guessing that wasn't cheap, and I'm surprised that a fairly popular band like The Killers would want their reputation tarnished by being in a Creationist film - especially since this is THE song that the film ends with, very prominently. Maybe The Killers don't know about this, and someone should tell them?

"The Wall"
The film opens with scenes of the Berlin wall being built, brick by brick. The footage and title cards are affected to look old, like a 50's educational film. The effect doesn't look professional, and by this point I was already starting to question the technical quality of the film. They're really trying to push this in national theatres? Don't they have someone sympathetic to this nonsense that knows how to make a film?

"Big Science"
We see clips of PZ Myers, Dawkins, Dennett, etc. criticizing ID. No surprise here, but we can be fairly certain that the filmmakers know their audience, and it isn't anyone on the fence. The only people who will find these statements to be negative are those who have bought into Mathis' "Big Science" Conspiracy.

We see Ben Stein preparing to speak in a college auditorium. It really felt like they were trying to emulate Al Gore's An Inconvenient Truth.

USA #1!
Ben Stein is the narrator, and is as terrible as you can imagine. He gives a monologue about how freedom is what makes America great, over images of flags around the Washington Monument, the Lincoln Memorial, Stein walking by the mirror pond, and so on. Stein and Mathis of course want you to think that freedom should also extend to the classroom, as in "teaching the controversy". He says "Why should we allow freedom in all other areas, but not in science?"

Eugenie Scott
Expelled even tries to make Eugenie Scott look like a villain, which is absurd. Eugenie Scott works for NCSE, which is a non-profit group working to keep Evolution in science education. She shows them a map with colored pins in it, where problems have come up in teaching evolution.

"Intellectual Terrorists"
Stein goes to meet a couple of people who claim to have lost their jobs due to mentioning ID in some way connected to a University. Big Science is squashing all the little guys who don't toe the pro-Darwin line, obviously. Eugenie Scott and NCSE are collecting information on debunking these stories. They are building their response page at http://www.expelledexposed.com/

Here's a brief explanation from NCSE:

Expelled Exposed is a new National Center for Science Education website that counters the Ben Stein/Premise Media anti-evolution movie, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed. It is available at www.expelledexposed.com. Currently in a preliminary stage, Expelled Exposed consists of a collection of links containing the most basic and important resources for teachers, scientists, reporters, and members of the public who seek information now to respond to this movie. On April 16, days before the movie Expelled is premiered on April 18, NCSE will launch the full version of the website. In its final form, Expelled Exposed will examine claims made in the movie and explain, neatly and concisely, why each is an exaggeration, a misrepresentation, or a fabrication. NCSE encourages all interested parties to bookmark the site, and pass the link on to friends and family, so that by the time the creationist movie is released, www.expelledexposed.com will be the most popular Expelled site on the internet!


The Discovery Institute
We see Stein walking the streets of Seattle trying to be funny "I don't know where we are... Is this third street? Where are we?" I know it doesn't sound funny written out, and it wasn't funny on-screen, but you could tell from his strained delivery that Stein was TRYING to be funny. The sympathetic audience did laugh, which was even sadder. Stein asks people on the street how to get to the Discovery institute, and no one he meets has even heard of it. I guess the point is to make you think that The Discovery Institute isn't very big or influential. "It must be this whole building" Stein says when they arrive, and acts shocked when he finds out it is only half a floor in the building, with a staff of about 30. See? The Discovery Institute is just a harmless little group on half a floor! They all look so friendly! A very friendly interview follows with someone from the Institute, and the implication is that they are the struggling underdogs.

We see a second attempt at comedy when Stein is in a boardroom meeting (I think it was at the Discovery Institute) and starts to look bored, pulls out an expandable pointing device, and proceeds to scratch his back with it. It doesn't sound funny, and it wasn't funny. But you could once again tell he was trying to be funny. I guess that was enough to get the sympathetic audience in Minneapolis to laugh once again.

Michael Shermer
Stein goes to speak with Michael Shermer (Skeptic.com), and asks him what he would think about people losing their jobs for publishing about ID. Michael Shermer had this to say about this experience with the Expelled team:

My take on Mathis is that he's an opportunist. He says and does whatever he thinks necessary to get his film made and now promoted. My guess on the latest flap about tossing PZ out of the screening but not Dawkins was PZ's original assumption that they just didn't notice Dawkins there, and only after the fact rationalizing the whole affair with plausible (and ever changing) reasons.

For my part, the moment I sat down with Stein (with Mathis there) and he asked me that question about firing people for expressing dissenting views a dozen times, I realized that I was being manipulated to give certain answers they were looking for me to give. I asked them both, several times, if they had anything else to ask me about evolutionary theory or Intelligent Design. In frustration I finally said something like "Do you have any other questions to ask me or do you keep asking me this question in hopes that I'll give a different answer?"

That's when Stein finally changed the subject and asked about social Darwinism. We got into a lengthy discussion about Adam Smith, which he seemed surprised to learn that I seemed to know more about the great economist than he did! For example, he didn't seem to even realize that Smith's first book was "The Theory of Moral Sentiments", and that Smith didn't trust businessmen any more than he trusted government bureaucrats, and that we need a mix of enlightened self-interest and strictly enforced rules of trade. But as I noted in my review of the film for Scientific American, Stein was especially displeased with my linkage of Smith and Darwin, that Darwin read Smith as an undergraduate at Edinburgh, etc. I also pointed out to him that Darwin has been used and abused by ideologues of all stripes, and that in any case that is all separate from whether the science is good or not. That seemed to tax his thinking too much, because shortly after he announced that he had to take a rest break and he just got up and went out to his car for about 20 minutes! Seriously, he just went out to the street next to our office and sat in the rent car they had! I couldn't believe it. We had only been going for about 30 minutes and he was tired? And this was in the late morning. I joked with Mathis that, this being Hollywood and all, I wondered if Stein was out doing a line of cocaine.... Mathis assured me that Stein doesn't do drugs, but I found the whole thing to be quite odd. Then Stein came back in and that's when we walked around the office with the handheld camera to get some B-Roll footage, and they showed him asking me about my books, and that's where I told him I thought ID was much closer to pseudoscience than science. Then he asked me AGAIN if I thought people should be fired....

The whole experience was a bit surreal, and I found Stein to be a somewhat disagreeable man. He tried to come off like he was a star and that I should have been star-struck, and when I wasn't that seemed to get under his skin a bit. For example, when he came back into the office from resting in his car, I said something like "gentlemen, I've got work to do so I'd like to wrap this thing up now," he looked at me like "hey, don't you realize who I am and that you should be grateful to be talking to me?" I let him off the hook a bit in my review about his questionable comment about blacks, but I suspect he has some racist tendencies.


PZ Myers (of Pharyngula-fame)
PZ comes across as very likable in the film, and says he would like to see religion become more of a hobby for people, like knitting.

Sympathizers
There are other scientists interviewed, and I can't remember them all. There are other ID sympathizers who reinforce the 'Big Science' Conspiracy.

Crystals!?
They interview someone else about evolution, who mentions that science doesn't know how life began. So the film shifts to discussing the origin of life on earth. Philosopher Michael Ruse mentions the theory that organic life piggybacked on crystalline structures (Richard writes more about this in his review). Stein takes the opportunity to ridicule the idea: "Crystals!? On the backs of CRYSTALS!?" The film cuts to B&W video of creepy fortunetellers hunching over crystal balls. Stein's only desire is to oversimplify the theory and make fun of it.

The Dover Trial
The trial in Dover, PA is mentioned, but the film tries to spin the crushing defeat (Watch NOVA's piece on the trial here: http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/id/ ). Stein says something like "I thought science was decided by evidence, not the courts."

Panspermia
Panspermia (the idea of life originally being seeded by an alien source) is also ridiculed, with a black and white video montage of 1950's aliens, robots, and flying saucers. You'd have to be pretty stupid to think that Panspermia is the same as a 1950's flying saucer movie, but once again, Stein and Mathis know their audience. It also made me think that Mathis was really trying to emulate Michael Moore, who does similar "ridicule" cuts to old black and white footage for laughs. I can just imagine Mathis and his group sitting around saying "what we need to do is rip off as much of An Inconvenient Truth and Michael Moore documentaries as we can, so that we look like a real documentary." I know that is just blind speculation, but that's the feeling I had while watching the film. I just thought I'd share.

Where it all began...
Stein says "It was time for me to go to where it all began," referring to Evolution. Maybe Stein will go to the Galapagos, and describe some of Darwin's early encounters with divergent species? Maybe we will see giant tortoises or finches? No, we just see shots of Down House, where Darwin did most of his writing and microscope work ( http://williamcalvin.com/bookshelf/down_hse.htm ). We see shots of Darwin's books, eyeglasses, microscopes, things like that. The implication seemed to be 'this was just where Darwin thought up all of his crazy ideas, out of thin air'. There is no mention of science, or how Darwin built the Theory of Evolution, just shots of his house. As if this were some 'holy place, for all of those people who worship Darwin as their god'.

Science is just a bunch of old films shown in school
We see a video, which is meant to show the audience the current theory of the origin of life. It shows lightning striking the ocean as a possible trigger for the beginning of life. The film is in color, but it is one of those school films with rounded corners, dirt and scratches through the film. They are presenting this to the audience as if it is the best explanation that science has to offer. The theme of this movie seems to be that science is just a bunch of old dusty films you saw in science class. Whenever they speak of evolution or the origin of life, we don't see anything that isn't at least 30 years old. But of course when they come to ID, we see a state-of-the-art computer animation of the inner workings of a cell.

The film mentions the Miller-Urey experiments (I'm pretty sure these were the experiments referred to in the film) done on the mixture of elements likely to have been around at the dawn of life. Stein's voiceover merely states that these experiments were done to replicate the origin of life, and that "Nothing happened" (there is more to this story, of course). Boy, those stupid scientists should have known then and there that they were way off track!

Chance
There is a short cartoon comparing the origin of life to a row of slot machines, claiming that the origin of life would have been like hitting the jackpot on 200 separate machines, all in a row. Someone says "How are you doing over there Richard?" of course meaning Richard Dawkins. They cut to a cartoon version of Richard kicking a slot machine and cursing at it, apparently because it can't hit the jackpot 200 times in a row. They also apparently couldn't get anyone with a real British accent to do his voice.

Boooooring.......
There are a lot of things that happen through the middle of the film that are just so boring I can't recall them. Mostly we see interviews with people from universities who are complaining about the lack of support for Intelligent Design. Of course NO ONE provides any evidence for ID, other than what Richard calls "The Argument from Personal Incredulity."

The ID All-Stars
It's kind of pathetic to see "Fart-noise" Dembski dragged out as the ID All-Star, but he's brought into the film to describe "Irreducible Complexity", better known as "god-did-it" theory. I think there is a mention of Behe, but he doesn't appear in the film.

Computer Animation
As previously mentioned, we see a computer-animated video of the inner-workings of a cell, which looks suspiciously like a certain Harvard animation. Since I can't go back and compare them side by side, I'll just say that they looked very similar, and had three elements that I remembered from the Harvard video, which I'd seen online: 1. Something "walking" along a rope-like structure, 2. a tube being "peeled" apart, and 3. Something un-coiling rapidly. If this isn't the Harvard film, it looks almost identical. Regardless if it is or isn't the same as the Harvard animation, it is certainly intended to make the cell look like machinery. I'm sure they're hoping for the viewer to feel overwhelmed with the complexity, and conclude that it was designed.

"Is" Doesn't Imply "Ought": The Holocaust
Richard has written about this in more detail, but I'll try and give a quick run-down. The film moves on to claim that Darwinism was "necessary" for Hitler, the Nazis, and the Holocaust. Stein says something like "Darwinism may not only be wrong, but it may also be dangerous." Up to this point the film has been fairly dull with poor attempts at humor, but now they're laying on emotional appeal. We see B&W footage of people opening up concentration camp ovens with bodies still inside, emaciated Jews in the camps, and so on. It is of course all very horrible to see, but the premise is so rotten it made me doubly angry. They want you to think that teaching evolution will lead to another Holocaust, basically. We see shots of Ben Stein attempting to look as if he'd just learned of the horrors of the Holocaust on-camera. Way to exploit, Ben.

Eugenics & Planned Parenthood?!
Eugenics is mentioned as an "extension" of Darwinism, and they even tar Planned Parenthood as being founded by a woman who was somehow associated with Eugenics (I can't remember the name). It's another disgusting, underhanded swipe, which could only be accepted so quickly in an extremely uninformed and sympathetic audience.

The Great Richard Dawkins, Evil Lord of the Evolutionist Big Science Conspiracy
Richard is really the star of this film, and if he had not been duped into his interviews (read elsewhere about the Crossroads film that many were told the interviews were for), I can't imagine who or what would have taken his place. They really portray him as the evil leader that must be stopped.

Stein says it's time to confront the head of the Evolutionists, Richard Dawkins. It's all very dramatic and overdone, making it out to be some kind of quest to slay the dragon. We see Stein slowly stepping out of his car outside the museum, about to confront Richard. They cut to Richard waiting inside the museum, with someone putting makeup (or powder, as they say) on his face in front of the camera. Once again, this was done in Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit 9/11" repeatedly, and that's all I could think when I saw it. Furthermore, this was NOT one of Richard's people adding makeup; this was the crew from Expelled! They must have wanted to put makeup on him, so that they could get that shot. Furthermore, they messed with his hair to make him look like a mad scientist -- so he has makeup, but terribly messy hair. Of course the implication is that Richard needs to be prepped before being seen by the public, as the Evil Lord of Big Science. Add to this a dark room with harsh lighting, and you'll start to get the picture. We even get a nice full-screen shot of just Richard's nose and mouth. Why? I've been filming Richard for the last 2 years, and we don't put makeup on him. This is just another underhanded attempt to make Richard look bad.

Richard's Interview
We see Richard reading "The God of The Old Testament is arguably the most unpleasant character in all of fiction" section of the book, which the audience didn't find as funny as I did. Stein asks Richard to put a number on how certain he is that there is no god. Richard says 99%. Stein asks "Why not 97? Or why not 47?" Richard replies "Well you asked me to put a number on it, so I did". This is apparently meant to make Richard look like he has no reason to say god is very, very unlikely -- since he doesn't have a reason to say 99% over 97%. The sympathetic audience laughed at this. Richard describes how Panspermia is the only way that ID would even be science (since whoever seeded life would have evolved through something like Natural Selection), but Stein just wants to use this to say, "Richard Dawkins believes in Intelligent Design, so long as it doesn't mention god!" He's OK with aliens, but not god! 'How ridiculous,' we are all expected to think.

Intelligent Design means Created by God
Let me draw attention to this: This film in no way attempts to distinguish God from Intelligent Design. They have apparently abandoned that tactic, and are now only targeting their religious base with this Big Science Conspiracy Theory. They move effortlessly from phrases about "an Intelligent Designer" to "God" or "a creator".

Big Science = Nazi Army
Stein says something like "I can't go up against Big Science all by myself!" over images of what looked like Nazi tanks and troops protecting a building, driving home the alleged connection between scientists and Nazis. We see B&W images of armed fortresses with barbed wire. Science looks really scary!

Evil Darwin Statue
Stein goes to a museum with a statue of Darwin, which he stands in front of during a monologue. We see a straight on shot of the grey Darwin statue in very little light, with Darwin's eye cavities completely black. Darwin sure looks evil, like some sort of dark god. Yes, the evil god of the scientists.

The Wall Must Come Down!
The closing metaphor of the film is that the wall Big Science has put up to keep ID out must come down. We see scenes of people breaking down the Berlin wall, of people running to freedom, climbing over the wall, etc. The Killers song is played, with some Stein monologue, and we go to credits.

Thanks!
PZ and Richard are thanked in the end credits.

Extended Trailer Online
I noticed that several scenes from the extended trailer weren't even in the film. The whole segment with Stein saying "I always thought everything was created by a loving god, including rocks, trees...." was nowhere to be found. The clip with Richard in the trailer wasn't in the film, either.

Concluding Thoughts
Expelled seems to mark a shift in the Creationists' tactics. Everything they've tried to do so far has failed, so now they're trying to claim it's a conspiracy. 'Big Science is trying to keep God out of the classroom, and you'd better do something about it fast or we're going to have another Holocaust!' Of course, god-did-it is not science, but I don't think this matters to the film's target audience. Expelled is simply a rallying call to religious Americans. It will probably be shown in church basements, and will further insulate those who fear the seed of doubt. The film's message is so appalling (teaching evolution = the Holocaust) and is presented so crudely that any sane person will see it for the propaganda it is. There was virtually no real scientific content, and I felt stupider for having sat through it.

Please, don't pay to go see it. Let it die a quiet theatrical death. If you really want to see it, wait for a free opportunity that won't line Mathis' pockets.




Another good review from New Scientist:
http://www.newscientist.com/blog/shortsharpscience/2008/03/are-id-proponents-being-silenced.html

Comments 101 - 150 of 242 |

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101. Comment #150025 by Wosret on March 26, 2008 at 12:04 pm

 avatarWhat a lot of garbage. I'd rather sit through that church dvd my dad made me sit through last year that said if you believe in evolution, you're a homosexual, and neandrathols were centeries old humans. At least that was funny. This just angers me.

Other Comments by Wosret

102. Comment #150116 by Raiko on March 26, 2008 at 1:13 pm

 avatarLet's hope that all legal issues - such a stealing music and harvard videos - will stop this movie from getting very far. They could play something useful at the theatres instead - something truly educational and intelligent.

Other Comments by Raiko

103. Comment #150190 by NormanDoering on March 26, 2008 at 2:41 pm

If anyone is interested, you can ask the screenwriter for Expelled questions:
http://kevinwrites.typepad.com/otherwise_known_as_kevin_/

Can anyone come up with five good questions?

This guy was able to come up with six. But so far no one else has been able to rise to the challenge. And no cheating, folks. Come up with them on your own. I'll respond to them in a blog post. BTW: I won't answer stupid questions I know you're all burning to ask, such as, "Why aren't you smarter and more honest?" Oh, and please e-mail them to me rather than posting as a comment. I don't want to lose them in the shuffle.


Other Comments by NormanDoering

104. Comment #150214 by peahix on March 26, 2008 at 3:19 pm

re comment 104, i like how kevin says to email him the questions instead of posting them in the blog... assuring that he'll be able to simply pick and choose the questions he wants to answer, without anyone else seeing the questions he decided not to answer...

i suggest posting your questions in the blog... even if he says something like "i'll only answer questions sent via email," at least there'll be lots of visible, tough, unanswered questions there... unless they get deleted...

Other Comments by peahix

105. Comment #150219 by jonnymac27 on March 26, 2008 at 3:25 pm

If I'm not mistaken, The Killers are a very religious band, Mormon actually:

http://arts.guardian.co.uk/filmandmusic/story/0,,1925872,00.html

It wouldn't surprise me at all if they allowed this song to be used in this movie.

Other Comments by jonnymac27

106. Comment #150223 by secondsoprano on March 26, 2008 at 3:30 pm

 avatar
if you believe in evolution, you're a homosexual


and that's bad because ..??

Other Comments by secondsoprano

107. Comment #150344 by mcornwell on March 26, 2008 at 6:28 pm

Great post Josh

Other Comments by mcornwell

108. Comment #150422 by 24fps on March 26, 2008 at 9:59 pm

I think it's obvious that Expelled is a wrongheaded and biased documentary that preaches to the converted. I also think that many commenters underestimate it.

Every time I hear about "church basements" and how this project is so not mainstream, I think about LeHay's "Left Behind" series. I can't find numbers on book sales, but millions of copies comes to many millions of dollars. The first film based on the series made $4.6 million US, the second $17 million. And the Passion of the Christ made $30 million. I also note the marketers for POTC are working the distribution of this film.

I know the Christian audience seems small and marginal, but this is deceptive. The numbers are larger than you would think, and they weild a powerful market share, especially in the US. Sure, Expelled preaches to the converted, but they're willing to pay to be preached to. And there is serious money being poured into the distribution of this project. Money buys exposure.

I'd also like to note that there seems to be some attempt at crossover to more mainstreamed audiences. Stein obviously buys into ID/creationism, but he approaches it as a devout Jew, not a Christian. So when we start talking about the Christian agenda, they have a built in defense -- their host/star.

Underestimating these people is risky. This is only what I've gleaned from a little time on the 'net. I suspect that's only the tip of the iceberg.

Other Comments by 24fps

109. Comment #150436 by dlitt on March 26, 2008 at 11:03 pm

 avatar
Comment #149466 by EKinateder on March 25, 2008 at 4:23 pm
If you must see this piece of trash for yourself:


Most theaters in the USA do not check tickets once you've purchased a ticket and entered the main hallway. Purchase a ticket to another movie and attend this one instead.
That would be most fortuitous if the other movie was 'Religulous.' :-)

Other Comments by dlitt

110. Comment #150624 by Alkal on March 27, 2008 at 7:31 am

Are they going to teach the "controversy" that Earth is in fact standing on a giant invisible tortoise which is on a giant tortoise which is on a tortoise.. and it is tortoises all the way down.. I mean given a sufficient amount of creativity that can be a very good explanation for why the earth does not fall off... Tortoise balance and Gravity, big science and the conspiracy to teach gravity in public school.... then we could have the conspiracy to brush your teeth in the morning...( Big toothpaste vs the benevolent stinky mouth germs or some thing...) and there could be other consipracies too..

Please may I swear loudly and vileley.

Other Comments by Alkal

111. Comment #150664 by Border Collie on March 27, 2008 at 8:30 am

 avatarTypical fundamentalist ploys ... bait & switch on the admittance thing and then accuse you guy(s) of a "sin" (gate-crashing) ... once you're accused of the "sin" then you're "obligated" to "explain" what actually happened ... nothing's changed in about 2,000 years ... probably won't change any time soon ...

Other Comments by Border Collie

112. Comment #150738 by Stella on March 27, 2008 at 10:44 am

 avatar
Eugenics & Planned Parenthood?!
Eugenics is mentioned as an "extension" of Darwinism, and they even tar Planned Parenthood as being founded by a woman who was somehow associated with Eugenics (I can't remember the name). It's another disgusting, underhanded swipe, which could only be accepted so quickly in an extremely uninformed and sympathetic audience.


That's kind of... true.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Margaret_Sanger

Other Comments by Stella

113. Comment #150769 by Amused Muse on March 27, 2008 at 12:05 pm

 avatarWonderful job, Josh. Quite a night, eh?

I am curious about Ben Stein's "questionable comment about blacks" that Shermer refers to. I cannot find this excerpt by Shermer on the web. I would love to read the whole thing, and perhaps interview him on "Atheist Talk" sometime.

I don't want to give things away too much but I have been contacted by a science blogger about the manner in which I and others learned about these screenings at all. I don't think the ultimate source will please the intelligent design camp at all.

Other Comments by Amused Muse

114. Comment #150793 by Jon_Sociologist on March 27, 2008 at 12:26 pm

 avatar
Comment #150432 by clearmind:
Freedom of speech. Freedom of making films?

Josh didn't advocate censoring the movie, he advised us not to spend money on it.

Comment #150432 by clearmind:
Why bother telling us not see the movie.

Because going to see it in theatres will fund a creationist propaganda machine.

Comment #150432 by clearmind:
Like jon says:
I said Planets CREATED CHEMICALS, NOT THE STARS.
So stars cannot create but the planets can CREATE(!). THE MAGIC WORD IS CREATION. HE IS THE FIRST ONE I GUESS USING CREATION FOR EVOLUTION.

Yet again you are a lying sack of shit:
Comment #135126 by Jon_Sociologist on The Salamander's Tale thread:

Astrophysical theories show us how organic chemicals are a common by product of stars. Stars that existed prior to our solar system exploded seeding our solar system with the chemicals see so prevalent throughout our solar system.

Emphasis added.
And in this case your lie is direct and inexcusable, as it has been pointed out to you:
Comment #149524 by Jon_Sociologist on the Two More Fleas thread at 8:33 pm on March 25, 2008:
You're an idiot. I ask you where I said that planets created organic chemicals and you point to a post where I said that stars did it. For anyone else who would like to understand just how much of an idiot clearmind/wooter is, here's a link to the post he just referred to: Comment 139439 by Jon_Sociologist on the Salamander thread.

You are blatantly and intentionally misquoting me, but then lying and deception are really all you have left as we Atheists have torn your crappy analogies about paintings and 747s to bits.

Comment #150432 by clearmind:
THE MAGIC WORD IS CREATION. HE IS THE FIRST ONE I GUESS USING CREATION FOR EVOLUTION.

This is the best you can come up with? "Creation" is a magic word. I've already answered this one as well:
Comment #149524 by Jon_Sociologist on the Two More Fleas thread at 8:33 pm on March 25, 2008:
Comment #149436 by clearmind:
MANIPULATION, OR DEFINATION AND MTATION TYPO OR YOU CANNOTEXPLAIN eVOLUTION BY LOGIC SO YOU ARE MAKING A U TURN? i GUESS IT IS QUITE CLEAR.

That's what you count as a victory? You are even more stupid and pathetic than I thought. You think that my use of the word 'created' as a descriptive for the process of synthesis involved in nuclear fusion implies that your creationist garbage convinces me? Someone 'created' my house by putting a bunch of wood together. Stars 'create' helium by fusing two hydrogen atoms together. You think this is some great propaganda victory for you? Are you trying to demonstrate just how pathetic creationists can get? Or are you just trying to bait me by insulting me again? U-turn my ass.


Comment #150432 by clearmind:
they are all required to be formed in a certain sequence sticking to their left sides only by CHANCES AND COLLISION. Any enough figures in math to beat this odd?

I've already answered this: evolution is not by chance. The mutation element is a random element, but Natural Selection is not entirely random. I would also point out that you are making two logical fallacies. You are begging the question (assuming what you set out to prove) by assuming that humans were a consciously intended outcome (thus requiring a conscious intender), and using an argument from personal incredulity by scoffing at our explanations of how "chance" could have in fact led to our current situation.

Comment #150432 by clearmind:
In a commonsense approach, logic says it is much more logical to say God did it than evolution made it.

Actually this highlights your lack of common sense, and poor grasp of logic. Saying "god did it" explains nothing. You have completely failed at every turn to describe how god did it. By saying "god did it" we are left without an explanation of how, and in addition, we now need to explain how god came to be.

Comment #150432 by clearmind:
(Please, don't pay to go see it.)
Again pushing people? It is not good. We do not live in 1984 of George Orwell, right?

Oh I see, you think that Josh is going to send the Atheist Gestapo to break the kneecaps of anyone who goes to the movie, do you?

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

115. Comment #150810 by kevinmillerxi on March 27, 2008 at 12:44 pm

Re: comment 105, I made the e-mail request out of convenience, not deception. I just don't want anyone saying, "Why didn't you answer my five questions?" So just to be completely transparent, post your questions to the blog AND to my e-mail. As for deleting comments, I think a visit to my blog will assure you that I do not have a problem with comments that don't support my point of view. I will confess to deleting one or two comments early on, but merely b/c they were advertising other blogs rather than actually engaging with what I'd written.

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116. Comment #150927 by kehills on March 27, 2008 at 4:56 pm

Josh,
As several people have noted, Margaret Sanger (founder of Planned Parenthood) was a eugenics advocate. She also tends to receive knocks for her association with a Nazi anthropologist. What people don't realize, or prefer to ignore, is that in the timeframe we're discussing (the teens and 20s), eugenics was widely celebrated in this country, so far as having Fittest Family awards at country fairs and explanations of how eugenics worked and how people could take part. The Cold Springs Lab runs the Eugenics Image Archive, and has a lot of information about this less than well known period of American history: http://www.eugenicsarchive.org/eugenics/ . They run this now in part because of the large role their founder, Charles Davenport, played in American eugenics. (Likewise, AG Bell? Big in eugenics - he was afraid we were creating a deaf America.)

On top of that, many people don't like to acknowledge that because the US was a leader in positive eugenics (encouraging the reproduction of the designated genetic fit), Nazi scientists actually came here to learn the theories from our scientists.

Woodrow Wilson was a negative eugenicist - an advocate, like Sanger, of preventing "mentally deficient" people from reproducing. It was his charge that led to most states having a law that allowed compulsory sterilization for people deemed deficient (and being deficient, as Buck v Bell showed, meant nothing more than how your parents and grandparents were perceived - a famous quote from that trial argued that three generations of imbeciles were enough). States continued to sterilize people in mental institutions up through the late 1980s, often without seeking consent of the patient or the patient's guardian.

Anyhow. I could go on but I'll spare y'all. There's a rich and in depth literature about the history of eugenics in America, and how it affects us and our science to this day (much of the argument around eugenics can be heard echoed in IVF, genetic enhancement, transhumanism and cloning debates).

Other Comments by kehills

117. Comment #150960 by MaxD on March 27, 2008 at 8:00 pm

 avatarA note to stryer,
I will see this film, but it will be one I bootleg.
I think one of the reason's people are reticent to see the film in the theaters is at least two pronged.
The first prong is that most of us don't want to fund the stupid, hypocritically dishonest propaganda machine that Creationist/IDers have.
The second is that its rather obviously going to be yet another dishonest attack. Full of misquotation, mis=information and self-righteous bullshit. IF you have read one of these tracks then you have likely read them all.

Other Comments by MaxD

118. Comment #150969 by Jon_Sociologist on March 27, 2008 at 8:32 pm

 avatarRe Comment #150927 by kehills:

Yes, we up in the liberal haven of Canada were eager participants in eugenics as well. According to Wikipedia: "In 1928, the Province of Alberta, Canada, passed legislation that enabled the government to perform involuntary sterilizations on individuals classified as mentally deficient." And "The province of Alberta was the first part of the British Empire to adopt a sterilization act, and were the only ones who vigorously implemented it." This act was finally repealed in 1972.

It is also worth mentioning that the Allied nations were passive participants in the holocaust in that they were well aware of it, and yet insisted on maintaining shockingly small quotas on how many jews they would allow to immigrate. The U.K. in particular put jews trying to escape to the Mandate of Palestine (modern day Israel, the Palestinian Authority, and Gaza) into concentration camps or deported them back to where they came from (in some cases even Allied occupied Germany). More information is available at Wikipedia: British Mandate of Palestine there is also a controversial article here: Wikipedia: International response to the Holocaust. This is something of an example of the phrase 'To the victors go the spoils. To the losers go the war crimes convictions.' A similar event of note is the Dresden fire bombing which killed about 24,000-40,000 civilians. The Nazis being evil didn't really make the Allies "good guys".

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119. Comment #150973 by Dr Benway on March 27, 2008 at 9:02 pm

 avatarEven today no one is particularly enthusiastic about institutionalized retarded people having babies. But it's difficult to have a rational conversation about the problem, thanks to Hitler.

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120. Comment #150976 by MPhil on March 27, 2008 at 9:17 pm

 avatarGood post, Jon. And most definitely true. Sadly it wasn't only Dresden... think of the expulsion of everone with German heritage who lived in eastern prussia, pomerania and silesia after the war, people whose families had lived their partly for hundreds of years - with hundreds of thousands killed in the process.

Also, not only Dresden was unneccesary - so many civilian targets, so many cities were destroyed that there is literally almost no single city in Germany that wasn't bombed.

Don't get me wrong - I abhorr the Nazi crimes and the mindset that allowed for this to happen. But you're right - that doesn't mean that serious war crimes weren't committed by those fighting the Nazis.

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121. Comment #151179 by irate_atheist on March 28, 2008 at 8:39 am

 avatar125. Comment #151049 by clearmind -

Hello wooter. Still masturbating I public, I see. Make sure you clean up the mess afterwards.

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122. Comment #151260 by antifaithstl on March 28, 2008 at 10:41 am

I'm sure there will be a copy on BitTorrent soon enough, so you won't have to give these dickweeds any of your hard earned moolah.

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123. Comment #151262 by epeeist on March 28, 2008 at 10:46 am

 avatarComment #151049 by clearmind

Jon, you are losing it. Take it easy and check your answers again?
Is it just me, I detect a significant improvement in spelling and grammar in this post.

No improvement in content needless to say.

Other Comments by epeeist

124. Comment #151312 by Richard Morgan on March 28, 2008 at 1:19 pm

MUSIC (well, sort of) UPDATE


"A Major Modern Atheist1.1 : an MP3"
Words : Cartomancer;
Music : some other guy...


"EXPELLED : another hole in their socks."


(scroll down to the Standalone Player)


http://www.myspace;com/fleabytes

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125. Comment #151409 by Steve Zara on March 28, 2008 at 4:38 pm

Comment #151392 by clearmind
You are already in big trouble with Expelled movie, and now you are adding up and making it faster to close down the evolution theory.


Idiot.

I normally like comment in detail, but...

Other Comments by Steve Zara

126. Comment #151416 by Teratornis on March 28, 2008 at 4:49 pm

 avatarComment #150927 by kehills:

Anyhow. I could go on but I'll spare y'all. There's a rich and in depth literature about the history of eugenics in America, and how it affects us and our science to this day (much of the argument around eugenics can be heard echoed in IVF, genetic enhancement, transhumanism and cloning debates).


Of course. The only argument against eugenics anyone needs to articulate now is argumentum ad Hitlerum, and all rational discussion ceases.

The interesting thing about eugenics before Hitler is that it all made perfect sense, back when humans were still able to think rationally about it. Why wouldn't everything we learned by breeding animals apply to humans? Once Darwin showed that humans are also animals, there was no reason to suppose humans could not be improved by the same strategies that had been used to improve livestock and crops for thousands of years. The creationists have a point here, just as rational people have a point when we quote all of Hitler's nods to Christianity. Hitler took a lot of popular ideas of his time (he also studied the advertising methods of American soft drink manufacturers) and turned them into a cartoon. Then he used his personal charisma to lead Germany over a cliff. If only Hitler had been as obnoxious as I am, millions could have been saved! Instead, he was popular and inspiring and understood how to play people like a piano.

In any case, individual humans go right on making their own attempts at eugenics through mate selection. Almost everyone desires the most genetically gifted partner they can attract. For example, one basic indicator of attractiveness is robust physical health. A person with serious deformities and chronic diseases may be unable to attract any partner at all, save for someone else with some sort of comparable mating handicap. We wouldn't dare discriminate against such unfortunates economically, and we bend over backward to insure this. But when it comes to getting a date, it's still the law of the jungle baby! Bedroom bigotry is still 100% legal and legally enforced.

Among Hitler's many errors was to assume race had something to do with it, when in fact every "racial" group of humans has its own distribution of traits, upon which natural selection and sexual selection continue to do their grim work. Studies have found that the people judged most attractive in every group tend to resemble the most attractive people in other groups more than they resemble other people in "their" racial groups. This is directly measurable in fashion models who come from around the world - they have very similar bone structures. Sort of like Barbie dolls in different hues.

Once genetic engineering enables us to perform artificial selection at the level of individual genes (the clean way) rather than upon whole organisms (the horrifically brutal way), humans will embrace a new kind of eugenics. After all, everybody wants to get better, and once getting better becomes a real possibility, people will take a deep breath and get over their Hitler hysteria.

Consider how much money people spend on attempts to better themselves: education, cosmetics, gym memberships, etc. The average woman actually spends more money on her appearance than on her education. Once science can turn genuine supermodel beauty into a product anyone can purchase, every woman who spends a moment in front of a mirror will kill to have it.

Unfortunately for men, the zero-sum nature of social dominance means it will be difficult for all men to become overwhelmingly attractive to women, since women value social dominance in a man above all else, but at least we can all hope to look really hot someday.

I'm still trying to understand how Hitler's autobahns managed to avoid the same guilt by association that dogs eugenics and swastikas. When General Eisenhower surveyed the ruins of the crushed Nazi war machine, he was so impressed by what was left of the autobahns constructed by the tyrant he had just defeated, that he imported the loser's idea to the U.S. after becoming President. Since WWII, automobiles have killed more Americans than Nazi bullets and bombs did, and superhighways were instrumental in enabling America to expand automobile use to the level of personal necessity, which enabled the current level of automotive violence (another 9/11 every month). So one might say Hitler got his revenge.

Other Comments by Teratornis

127. Comment #151545 by clearthinker on March 29, 2008 at 12:47 am

Thanks Josh for an interesting review - I have not seen the film yet but gather from interviews and the title that the major premise of the film is that those academics who question Darwinism or even hint at promoting ID are 'expelled' from the academic community. In all the reviews of the film, including this one, no-one seems to have addressed this question. Is questioning Darwinism or advocating ID the unforgiveable sin which will result in you either losing your job or not getting tenure? Have people been expelled for this? And if so does the New Atheism support expelling people on these grounds?

I also saw an interesting interview with Stein - what do you think of this? http://www.ligonier.org/blog/2008/03/rc-sproul-interviews-ben-stein.html

Other Comments by clearthinker

128. Comment #151548 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 12:55 am

Comment #151545 by clearthinker
And if so does the New Atheism support expelling people on these grounds?


What do you think? Is this part of "atheist dogma"?

You pay UK taxes. Would you like your money to go into funding research into astrology?

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129. Comment #151557 by black wolf on March 29, 2008 at 1:24 am

 avatar
I'm still trying to understand how Hitler's autobahns managed to avoid the same guilt by association that dogs eugenics and swastikas. When General Eisenhower surveyed the ruins of the crushed Nazi war machine, he was so impressed by what was left of the autobahns constructed by the tyrant he had just defeated, that he imported the loser's idea to the U.S. after becoming President. Since WWII, automobiles have killed more Americans than Nazi bullets and bombs did, and superhighways were instrumental in enabling America to expand automobile use to the level of personal necessity, which enabled the current level of automotive violence (another 9/11 every month). So one might say Hitler got his revenge.


Did you know that the 'Hitler's Autobahn' is a myth? In fact, the first highway was built in Berlin in 1921 (the Avus, it's still there). The Autobahn plans were made and proposed in 1925-1926. Guess who voted them out: the Nazis and the Communists in unison. Hitler pulled the plans from his hat when he needed to fulfull his campaign promise of full employment - and all he really did was employ 125,000 workers instead of the target number of 600,000. The working conditions were apalling and dangerous. They completed only a bare half of the planned network, which was eventually finished in 1962.

Other Comments by black wolf

130. Comment #151672 by Alrischa on March 29, 2008 at 7:12 am

 avatar"Stein says something like "I can't go up against Big Science all by myself!" over images of what looked like Nazi tanks and troops protecting a building, driving home the alleged connection between scientists and Nazis. We see B&W images of armed fortresses with barbed wire. Science looks really scary! "
That sounds like he's confronted with the Death Star unarmed... Wow... Lots of drama involved.

I haven't watched the film, but eugenics? Holocaust? How does one associate them with Darwinism? I have an idea that I'm going to be very bored during the film, but I'm still very curious... I guess I can always watch it with my Christian acquaintances under the guise of converting.

Other Comments by Alrischa

131. Comment #151673 by matt_shute-07 on March 29, 2008 at 7:15 am

 avatarI watched the extended trailer for Expelled, and it didn't exactly make me want to rush out and see the film. The idea of listening to that whining narrator go on for more than a few minutes is about as appealing as a lobotomy, perhaps with similar results. What a lot of moaning and self-pitying paranoia from the poor creationists, upset when their dopey "theory" meets with near-universal ridicule.

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132. Comment #151786 by AfraidToDie on March 29, 2008 at 11:36 am

 avatar
133. Comment #151545 by clearthinker
I also saw an interesting interview with Stein - what do you think of this?


It runs along the same line as the trailer to the movie, nothing new. However, the proposition that even "asking about" what happened before the big bang can get you fired is very hard for me to believe took place. I am an atheist, and I'd love to know what happened before the big bang. I think there is a lot of science trying to bring forth hypothesis as to what might have happened before the big bang, which will have to stand up to scientific critique. However, to simply say that a god is the only explanation "before" the big bang is just trying to introduce the supernatural at an arbitrary point in time (a very long time ago) because science hasn't adequately come up with anything yet. And when science does find evidence to support what happened before the big bang, theists can then interject a god before that. God seems to be getting farther and farther away using that logic, but it doesn't stop the ID'ers from believing he intervened a mere 6k years ago. It is all so absurd. Please believe what you want, but theism must be channeled into the only area of academia it belongs, and that is philosophy. I think it would be great if theism and the many areas of philosophy were all part of our public education system in a philosophy classroom. The point is that it has no credence to be placed in science academia. However, I can't imagine theists wanting religion in open discussion in a philosophy classroom. It might expose the minds of their loved ones to views outside the area they chose for them to be brainwashed.

Other Comments by AfraidToDie

133. Comment #152162 by eljeffe on March 30, 2008 at 10:06 am

mark mathis and his similarly unsufferable wife, dianne anderson (an albuquerque tv news anchor) had a morning drive-time fm radio show for a short time. actually, mark kind of weaseled his way into prominence on the show, starting as an occasional guest. the bizarre conservative/religious right arguments and horribly twisted logic that spewed was simply mind boggling.
that station switched to a mexican music format after a year or so of talk - i loved the irony.

thanks for the write up josh.

Other Comments by eljeffe

134. Comment #152200 by Bucky O'Hare on March 30, 2008 at 12:25 pm

 avatarThanks Josh!

I'm confident this article is several orders of magnitude more entertaining than the film itself.

I will wait for my "free opportunity" to see this, as I don't fancy funding propaganda.

Bucky

P.S. I've contacted the Killers.

Other Comments by Bucky O'Hare

135. Comment #152475 by kehills on March 31, 2008 at 6:00 am

I haven't watched the film, but eugenics? Holocaust? How does one associate them with Darwinism?

Really? You don't see the connection, or haven't heard of it before? That's... sort of refreshing, actually.

Quite literally, eugenics was formed/conceived based on the works of Darwin, by his cousin, Francis Galton. The idea of eugenics itself can be traced back to Plato (ultimate nanny state, really), but Galton's the one who systemitised the idea through his cousin's book. Galton thought that society was undermining natural selection - instead of letting the strong survive and the weak die out, society protected the weak to the detriment of the strong. (It's important to keep in mind that things like class and financial wherewithall were considered genetic at the time.) It's not that he shared Bell's fear of a Deaf America, so much as he thought humanity was regressing towards the lowest common denominator, a regression of means. He believed genius, talent, intelligence, and the overall ability to be successful were all inheritable traits that should be selected for when choosing partners to have children with.

From there it all gets messy again, with the positive and negative eugenicists, and then the biologists rediscover Mendelian inheritance, and then Social Darwinism comes up, and so on. But at its very heart, modern, Galtonian eugenics is directly based upon Darwin's work and discoveries.

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136. Comment #152662 by andyinsdca on March 31, 2008 at 10:04 am

 avatarUnfortunately, they have Margaret Sanger (the founder of Planned Parenthood) profiled correctly. She was a huge fan of eugenics, including this quote "A stern and rigid policy of sterilization and segregation to that grade of population whose progeny is already tainted or whose inheritance is such that objectionable traits may be transmitted to offspring." (from Wikipedia, footnote #13)

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137. Comment #152698 by Jon_Sociologist on March 31, 2008 at 11:20 am

 avatar
Comment #151049 by clearmind:
Jon, you are so tense. Don't you see that it is over. I really appreciate in my heart for your answers, but no USE.

Actually I find my answers quite cathartic.

Comment #151049 by clearmind:
There is no logic in evolution and neither in your answers.

Unfortunately for you, people can read the exchange and decide for themselves. They will be able to see that all you are doing is declaring over and over that you have all the logic, and they will also see that you have been totally unable to back this assertion up.

Comment #151049 by clearmind:
Atheist Gestapo is not needed to be sent. JOSH IS REALLY GOOD AT BANNING IF HE DID. I WAS BANNED FROM THIS WEB PAGE TWO TIMES ALREADY.

I don't know what happened the first time, but I know that the second time, it was because you blatantly ignored the rules of conduct on this website.

Comment #151049 by clearmind:
Now the same idea is put forward: don't go to see that movie. This is not western philosophy that is based on freedom.

Suggesting that people not bother to see this movie hardly infringes on their freedom.

Comment #151392 by clearmind:
You are already in big trouble with Expelled movie, and now you are adding up and making it faster to close down the evolution theory.

Oh the terror we must feel! The idiots are coming the idiots are coming! Quake in fear all you Atheists: Ben Stein has come forth to drool most terrible ramblings upon your infidel hides.

Comment #151667 by clearmind:
Logic has done what it was supposed to do.

I take it that your imaginary friend named Logic is a hermaphrodite.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

138. Comment #152708 by Jon_Sociologist on March 31, 2008 at 11:40 am

 avatar
Comment #151416 by Teratornis:
The interesting thing about eugenics before Hitler is that it all made perfect sense, back when humans were still able to think rationally about it. Why wouldn't everything we learned by breeding animals apply to humans?

I see two problems here. The first is that, when humans take control of the reproduction of a species, the species seems to become substantially less intelligent. Dogs for example are about as smart as a rather dull wolf puppy. The second is that pretty much any method of enacting eugenics involves ruthless barbarity. Involuntarily sterilization is a gross violation of an individuals rights.

Comment #151416 by Teratornis:
Once genetic engineering enables us to perform artificial selection at the level of individual genes (the clean way) rather than upon whole organisms (the horrifically brutal way), humans will embrace a new kind of eugenics. After all, everybody wants to get better, and once getting better becomes a real possibility, people will take a deep breath and get over their Hitler hysteria.

Here I agree with you. Hopefully people will get past their irrational techno-phobia and embrace the only true cure for genetic ailments. Drugs inherently only treat the symptoms if the condition simply arises again in the next generation.

Comment #151416 by Teratornis:
I'm still trying to understand how Hitler's autobahns managed to avoid the same guilt by association that dogs eugenics and swastikas.

Dogs and highways may kill people, but these people are not unwilling victims of a systematic attempt to annihilate a population. Objectionable groups have adopted swastikas as a means of identifying themselves as sympathetic to the particular Nazi ideas that modern society finds repulsive, such as racism, eugenics, and societal insularity.

Other Comments by Jon_Sociologist

139. Comment #152712 by Steve Zara on March 31, 2008 at 11:52 am

Dogs for example are about as smart as a rather dull wolf puppy.


I'm going to need quite a bit of convincing to believe that. Dogs have been bred to retain the mental flexibility of young wolves throughout their lives, and some breeds of dog can be very intelligent indeed, learning hundreds of different commands.

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140. Comment #152725 by annabanana on March 31, 2008 at 12:11 pm

 avatar
I'm going to need quite a bit of convincing to believe that. Dogs have been bred to retain the mental flexibility of young wolves throughout their lives, and some breeds of dog can be very intelligent indeed, learning hundreds of different commands.

I agree. Then there's the whole matter of having to define intelligence. Is there any peer-reviewed research on the matter?

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141. Comment #152730 by Jon_Sociologist on March 31, 2008 at 12:16 pm

 avatar
Comment #152712 by Steve Zara:
Dogs for example are about as smart as a rather dull wolf puppy.

I'm going to need quite a bit of convincing to believe that. Dogs have been bred to retain the mental flexibility of young wolves throughout their lives, and some breeds of dog can be very intelligent indeed, learning hundreds of different commands.


I guess it depends on how you define intelligence. According to Wikipedia "Dogs tend to be poorer than wolves and coyotes at observational learning" but are "more responsive to instrumental conditioning". Personally I tend to favour observational learning over the rote memorization of instrumental conditioning. So while you might be able to train a dog to do a trick faster than you could with a wolf, when it comes to figuring out things for themselves wolves would seem to have a significant edge. I guess the concept of dog IQ vs. wolf IQ is a bit more complicated than I had initially thought.

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142. Comment #152754 by Teratornis on March 31, 2008 at 1:13 pm

 avatarComment #152708 by Jon_Sociologist:

I see two problems here.


Only two?


The first is that, when humans take control of the reproduction of a species, the species seems to become substantially less intelligent. Dogs for example are about as smart as a rather dull wolf puppy.


If your claim is true, it supports the claim that genes have some influence over intelligence.

If genes have some influence over intelligence, then humans could speed up the evolution of intelligence by selecting for it more efficiently than natural selection does.

If dogs are less intelligent than wolves, then that might mean humans happened to select for lower intelligence as they bred dogs.

Most likely, humans selected for loyalty rather than intelligence, and if dogs became less intelligent than wolves, it was probably a side effect of selecting for loyalty and
other desirable behaviors.

I read somewhere that domestic dogs outperform even chimpanzees on certain tasks of reading human gestures such as pointing. If you point to a distant object, a dog is more likely to look at the object, rather than at your finger. (I don't have the reference handy, so I may be garbling this.) Presumably the ancestral dogs which were better at understanding some human communication were selectively bred, so the dogs we have today understand humans better than wild animals can.


The second is that pretty much any method of enacting eugenics involves ruthless barbarity. Involuntarily sterilization is a gross violation of an individuals rights.


I agree that any form of selection must be ruthless to be effective, but what about the rights of the unborn to live lives as free from genetic disadvantage as we can make them? Inflicting the unborn with preventable defects strikes me as pretty ruthless too. I think there is something disingenuous about reflexively defending the reproductive rights of people we ourselves would not want to be, nor would we want our own children to be like them. Unfortunately, we cannot ask future generations what sort of genes they would like to be born with. Their interests don't even enter the discussion.

Also, don't suppose for an instant that involuntary sterilization has ended. There are some people who would like to reproduce, but they are unable to convince anyone to have sex with them. They are, in effect, being involuntarily sterilized.

Do you believe that when a person gets rejected by every potential mate, his individual rights have been grossly violated?

Before anyone can reproduce (by the traditional way), he or she must be judged worthy to reproduce by at least one potential mate. Not everybody passes that test. As I wrote in my previous message, every time any one of us rejects a potential mate, we are practicing our own version of eugenics in that instance. There are some people who get rejected by everybody they encounter - they can't attract anyone before they get too old.

I don't see much difference between being judged unworthy to reproduce by all potential mates, vs. being judged unworthy by the state. Either way, outside forces are thwarting the individual's "right" to reproduce. If anything, I'd expect the state to have some potential judge the issue more rationally.

For example, I read that when (America's most deadly domestic terrorist) Tim McVeigh was on death row, he received marriage proposals from at least one woman. I read that at least one woman wanted to impregnate herself with McVeigh's sperm smuggled out of prison. I would expect a government to have some chance of being smart enough to decide that a mass murderer should not father children, even if some individual women thought otherwise. Not all governments would be that smart, of course, but the bar is pretty low here.

I understand the slippery slope argument against giving governments that much power, but just having governments is itself a slippery slope.



Comment #151416 by Teratornis:
I'm still trying to understand how Hitler's autobahns managed to avoid the same guilt by association that dogs eugenics and swastikas.


Dogs and highways may kill people,


I used "dog" as a verb, but speaking of "dog" as the noun, Hitler was also a noted dog lover:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blondi

Imagine how absurd it would be if the makers of "Expelled!" tried to argue against owning dogs by cutting to scenes of Hitler with his beloved canine companion.

Seriously, the next time we hear a theist claiming that atheism is wrong because Hitler was an atheist, I suggest we whip out some archival photos of Hitler enjoying his dog, and ask whether this proves dog ownership is also wrong.


but these people are not unwilling victims of a systematic attempt to annihilate a population.


People who ride bicycles on U.S. highways might beg to differ. There are some drivers who quite clearly want to terrorize cyclists off "their" roads. Ride with me sometime and I will introduce you. These threats are not idle, as hundreds of bicyclists are "accidentally" killed each year by motor vehicles in the U.S. Studies have found that male drivers kill cyclists in higher proportion to miles driven than female drivers do, suggesting that driver aggression plays a large role in the continuing slaughter, since we know men are on average more aggressive than women behind the wheel (and pretty much at all times).


Objectionable groups have adopted swastikas as a means of identifying themselves as sympathetic to the particular Nazi ideas that modern society finds repulsive, such as racism, eugenics, and societal insularity.


Yes, but I'm still left with the question of why dog lovers and car lovers aren't bothered by what they too have in common with Hitler. It's a mystery as to why only some of Hitler's legacy gets tarred by argumentum ad Hitlerum.

Other Comments by Teratornis

143. Comment #153016 by cutekawaii on March 31, 2008 at 9:40 pm

 avatarYoko isn't Chinese, but ok....

Other Comments by cutekawaii

144. Comment #153028 by JackBlair on March 31, 2008 at 10:43 pm

As far as the songs in the movie, they are covered under licensing. Movie studios (or whatever type of business) pays for a license, and they can use the material covered by the license. Common practice.

Other Comments by JackBlair

145. Comment #153706 by Christopher Davis on April 1, 2008 at 9:44 pm

 avatarQuoting Jon_Sociologist...

"...when humans take control of the reproduction of a species, the species seems to become substantially less intelligent. Dogs for example are about as smart as a rather dull wolf puppy. The second is that pretty much any method of enacting eugenics involves ruthless barbarity. Involuntarily sterilization is a gross violation of an individuals rights".

I think the reason that domestic dogs seem about as intelligent as wolf pups, is because the process of domestication is inherently infantilizing to most species. One of the most defining (and endearing) characteristics of our canine pets is their utter dependence upon us. And even relatively independent breeds such as Huskies, Shepards, and Retrievers love to play, even as adults. Also, I agree with several of the other posters that quantifying intelligence in animals (especially across species) is a tricky concept. As for quantifying intelligence in humans...well that's tricky too, but I don't believe it is as impossible as some people claim.

As for the second point, I agree. Involutary sterilazation is a violation of individual human rights, but an intregal part of human civilizations has always been the limiting of selected individual rights toward the goal of bettering society. As Dr. Benway commented, most rational people don't really see the upside of allowing mentally retarded people to have children. In cases such as these, I believe that society must consider the future welfare of a child born to mentally retarded parents before declaring that involuntary sterilazation is a "gross violation of human rights."

Quoting Tetronis...

"Studies have found that male drivers kill cyclists in higher proportion to miles driven than female drivers do, suggesting that driver aggression plays a large role in the continuing slaughter, since we know men are on average more aggressive than women behind the wheel (and pretty much at all times)."

I can think of other explanations. What if male drivers simply show less caution when approaching a cyclist because they assume that the person on the bicycle sees them and isn't about to do something stupid like turn left or swerve to avoid a pothole? That's not agression, that's simply crediting the cyclist with a bit more situational awareness than they actually have. Also, it would be interesting to know how many of these dead cyclists are male because we all know that most men upon seeing a female cyclist, will slow down to see if she's a hottie.

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146. Comment #154128 by rod-the-farmer on April 2, 2008 at 6:17 pm

 avatarNote Ben Stein has evolved into yet another career, financial analyst....this time on the N. Americna real estate market

http://ctv2.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/RTGAM.20080402.wreits0402/business/Business/businessBN/ctv-business

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147. Comment #154238 by Jon_Sociologist on April 3, 2008 at 12:59 am

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Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
If your claim is true, it supports the claim that genes have some influence over intelligence.

Of course genes have some influence over intelligence, otherwise why would a human be any more intelligent than an amoeba?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
If genes have some influence over intelligence, then humans could speed up the evolution of intelligence by selecting for it more efficiently than natural selection does.

Can you think of a manner in which to put this idea into practice that doesn't involve the brutal repression of involuntary sterilization or some other offence against basic human rights?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
If dogs are less intelligent than wolves, then that might mean humans happened to select for lower intelligence as they bred dogs.

Most likely, humans selected for loyalty rather than intelligence, and if dogs became less intelligent than wolves, it was probably a side effect of selecting for loyalty and
other desirable behaviors.

Do you have any reason to believe that the group put in charge of a eugenics program would not have a similar end in mind for humans?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
I agree that any form of selection must be ruthless to be effective, but what about the rights of the unborn to live lives as free from genetic disadvantage as we can make them? Inflicting the unborn with preventable defects strikes me as pretty ruthless too.

You aren't talking about preventing defects you're talking about preventing the unborn from being born. You are deciding that some lives aren't worth living. If I decide that your life isn't worth living, should I have the right to cut your life short or sterilize you?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
I think there is something disingenuous about reflexively defending the reproductive rights of people we ourselves would not want to be, nor would we want our own children to be like them.

Who are you to say that someone you would not want to be should be sterilized? You think that your distaste for people gives you the right to mutilate their genitals with a scalpel?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
Also, don't suppose for an instant that involuntary sterilization has ended. There are some people who would like to reproduce, but they are unable to convince anyone to have sex with them. They are, in effect, being involuntarily sterilized.

Do you believe that when a person gets rejected by every potential mate, his individual rights have been grossly violated?

Are you seriously telling me that you can't see a fundamental difference between people's right to refuse unwanted sexual advances and slicing off body parts of people we deem inferior?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
I don't see much difference between being judged unworthy to reproduce by all potential mates, vs. being judged unworthy by the state.

Hmmm let's see one case leaves some people not getting laid the other involves mutilation of large numbers of people. Gee they both sound equally awful. Oh but wait, is the government going to institute mass rape as well so that ugly losers can get laid? Otherwise we have people not getting laid vs. people not getting laid while also being mutilated by the government.

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
Either way, outside forces are thwarting the individual's "right" to reproduce.

It's not about a right to reproduce; it's about not having Big Brother coming to cut your nuts off/slice out your ovaries.

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
If anything, I'd expect the state to have some potential judge the issue more rationally.

And when the state decides that you are inferior and comes to perform involuntary surgery on you?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
I understand the slippery slope argument against giving governments that much power, but just having governments is itself a slippery slope.

There's no slippery slope required there if you're starting off at a viciously oppressive point on the "slope".

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
Seriously, the next time we hear a theist claiming that atheism is wrong because Hitler was an atheist, I suggest we whip out some archival photos of Hitler enjoying his dog, and ask whether this proves dog ownership is also wrong.

It might be more effective to point out that Hitler was not an Atheist. Hitler was a catholic who was trying to create a new Teutonic religion.

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
but these people are not unwilling victims of a systematic attempt to annihilate a population.

People who ride bicycles on U.S. highways might beg to differ.

People who ride bicycles on U.S. highways are going to argue that highways are a systematic attempt to annihilate a population?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
There are some drivers who quite clearly want to terrorize cyclists off "their" roads.

So when a vicious idiot gets behind the wheel and tries to murder people, you blame the road?

Comment #152754 by Teratornis:
It's a mystery as to why only some of Hitler's legacy gets tarred by argumentum ad Hitlerum.

I agree that just because Hitler did it is not sufficient reason to consider something wrong. Presumably he breathed occasionally, so unless we're willing to condemn that, then we need other arguments. But, for ideas like eugenics, and genocide, there are other arguments.

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148. Comment #154247 by Jon_Sociologist on April 3, 2008 at 1:36 am

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Comment #153706 by Christopher Davis:
I agree. Involutary sterilazation is a violation of individual human rights, but an intregal part of human civilizations has always been the limiting of selected individual rights toward the goal of bettering society.

I don't think it would be a better society to live in fear that you or your children will be deemed inferior and summarily sterilized.

Comment #153706 by Christopher Davis:
As Dr. Benway commented, most rational people don't really see the upside of allowing mentally retarded people to have children.

It is one thing to decide not to conceive a child with a mentally retarded individual, it is quite another to say that no one should be allowed to and going on to mutilate people. Quite frankly as far as evolution goes if mentally retarded people have more children then they are the "superior" ones. Evolution judges "superiority" solely by how frequently genes are passed on.

Comment #153706 by Christopher Davis:
In cases such as these, I believe that society must consider the future welfare of a child born to mentally retarded parents before declaring that involuntary sterilazation is a "gross violation of human rights."

Maybe society shouldn't be deciding for people as to whether life is worth living or not. If a child grows up to feel that their life is not worth living then it is up to them to end it. Making that decision for them is absolutely a gross violation of human rights.

A blatant falsehood that could use correcting is this idea that humanity has somehow "escaped" the selective process. There is no escape from selection, genes are selected for or against, there is no third alternative, and both of these are within the selective process. Antibiotics may have removed many diseases as selective pressures, and made human immune systems less important to the selective process. Why should we then step in and pretend that the selective pressure is still there at the cost of traits that are actually relevant to our current environment? The populations of the developed world are currently under some of the most severe selective pressures ever experienced by modern humans. Western nations have a negative birth rate; this means that more people are dying than are being born, which in turn means that these populations are currently being selected against. Now you guys want to go around making this situation worse, based upon some artificial criterion that you have arbitrarily decided is more important than the actual natural selective processes? If we want to make the population smarter then we as a society need to make raising a child less detrimental economically. Given our negative birth rate, trying to prevent stupid people from having children is suicidal and short sighted.

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149. Comment #154425 by Zamboro on April 3, 2008 at 8:06 am

 avatarJon_Sociologist: I think you misunderstand his position. We've not escaped from the selective process, but it is acting on us differently and favoring different traits as a result of civilization mitigating the selective pressures against what would normally be poor genetic fitness. It's true that evolution is blind and has no notions of superiority or inferiority, but the same is not true of human beings nor should it be. We have very well formed definitions of superior and inferior, however controversial they may be to hyper-sensitive sophists.

Operating under the axiom that the human endeavor to preserve our species by expanding our power and influence is something we all wish to continue, it's objectively true that persisting in policies which favor the reproduction of individuals who have mentally crippling hereditary conditions will inhibit and potentially derail the human endeavor entirely. There's simply no getting around the fatal impracticality of providing for and even assisting the reproduction of individuals who cannot themselves (nor can their offspring) ever contribute anywhere near as much as they consume. It's societal suicide, and only a backwards and self-destructive sort of person would advocate it.

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150. Comment #154451 by Christopher Davis on April 3, 2008 at 9:39 am

 avatarZamboro, not only has Jon_Sociologist missed my point, he seems incapable of reading a post without making unjustified inferences.

At no point in my post did I advocate the forced sterilization of people. I merely pointed out that societies have always been in the business of limiting individual rights for the greater good of society.

Furthermore, Jon_Sociologist seems to think that sterilization is synonomous with castration...unless of course he considers a vasectomy a "mutilation".

Also, his comments about how society shouldn't be deciding if life is worth living are specious and contrived. Anyone with an ounce of sense will realize that the life of a human infant is extremely short unless the child is properly cared for. The issue is not individual worth, but practicality. Take for example, two mentally disabled people confined to an institution, unable to care for themselves, let alone a child, who fall in love. Is it more inhumane to sterilize them and let them have a fully consummated relationship, to keep them seperated, or to allow nature to run its course with no forethought towards the care of the resulting offspring?

Finally, Jon_Sociologist needs to rethink his "if mentally retarded people have more children then they are the superior ones" argument. While he is right that evolution proceeds through the successful transmission of genes, natural selection has a nasty habit of acting at the level of the phenotype. Which is important in this case because it doesn't matter how many children retarded people have...it only matters how many of those children survive to bear children of their own.

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