Wednesday, March 26, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

by Fox News

Thanks to Kubenzi for the link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.

"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.

Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.

They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.

Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.

The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."

The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.

Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.

The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.

The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.

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51. Comment #149840 by steveroot on March 26, 2008 at 9:41 am

37. Comment #149806 by Kubenzi on March 26, 2008 at 8:46 am

http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=poetry-neumann

http://www.americaslastdays.com/_pf.php?page=theyshall-leilani

Barking, Bat-shit Madness.
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

52. Comment #149841 by Ygern on March 26, 2008 at 9:43 am

Only in America....where child abuse is defended on religious grounds

Not at all. A frightening number of murders and mutilation of young children are justified in the name of Allah every year all over the world.

Personally, I find it hard to see much difference between parents allowing their daughter to die a slow and miserable diabetic death, and the parents who stone their daughter to death. The violent one is more immediately shocking; but what sort of human being can watch their daughter suffer and weaken day after day and do nothing?

Other Comments by Ygern

53. Comment #149847 by Kubenzi on March 26, 2008 at 9:49 am

looks like the second link i posted has been cleared out by the site admin at "americaslastdays".

Other Comments by Kubenzi

54. Comment #149855 by clodhopper on March 26, 2008 at 9:54 am

Just makes you want to cry. There must now be serious questions as to the parents fitness to care for the remaining children at home.

Anyone know what state laws are relevant here?

Before sacrificing their child an the alter of their faith did they road test it by praying for the car to get better, the sink to unblock itself, and the boiler pump to mend? Thought not.

Whatever laws exist should be used to the fullest extent with max publicity in the hope that this will prevent similar tragedies from occuring.

Other Comments by clodhopper

55. Comment #149859 by Stafford Gordon on March 26, 2008 at 9:58 am

Medieval; poor little sweetheart!

Other Comments by Stafford Gordon

56. Comment #149870 by Jack Rawlinson on March 26, 2008 at 10:05 am

I believe this is manslaughter through negligence, and charges should be brought.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

57. Comment #149878 by Logicel on March 26, 2008 at 10:11 am

Faith is not a virtue, it is a vice. Society needs to wake up to that fact and not pussyfoot around it anymore--faithheads are all walking time bombs.

Other Comments by Logicel

58. Comment #149883 by phil rimmer on March 26, 2008 at 10:14 am

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected

Prosecute by all means, but I fear they might get off on the grounds of diminished responsibilities.

Other Comments by phil rimmer

59. Comment #149890 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 10:17 am

I was intending to stop coming to this site but skimming the discussions and seeing stuff such as this makes my blood fucking freeze-surely the "parents" have to be charged with manslaughter, if not then negligence?

The power of prayer eh? Partway into the 21st century and people die cause of religion and superstition-fucking tragic......

Other Comments by Prankster

60. Comment #149898 by 7Fred7 on March 26, 2008 at 10:22 am

I don't see that the poor parents can be guilty of murder in any degree. They evidently wanted their child to live. These people are suffering from religious faith, and religion is the guilty party.

Other Comments by 7Fred7

61. Comment #149904 by Double Bass Atheist on March 26, 2008 at 10:26 am

Sadly, this has happened many times before.

Check out the link below...
(warning: this will probably both anger and sicken you further then you are already)

http://www.religioustolerance.org/medical8.htm

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

62. Comment #149917 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 10:29 am

Sorry 7Fred7 but the fact they prayed for the child to live while actually watching the poor kid waste and die says neglect to me, faith or lack of it notwithstanding.

Saying religion is the guilty party is wrong. I feel the parents are still to blame and to that end should be charged.

Maybe they'll take comfort from the fact their daughter may be resurrected some time soon-but I ain't holding my breath

Other Comments by Prankster

63. Comment #149924 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 10:36 am

Double Bass Athiest

Thanks for the links-truly sickening aren't they?

All those lives wasted because of "faith in the lord" and religious poisoning

Can't be a god cause he/she/it wouldn't allow this level of suffering surely?-just proves god is a bastard after all

Other Comments by Prankster

64. Comment #149930 by dobiemum on March 26, 2008 at 10:39 am

These people are obviously mad and should be sectioned. How can this behaviour be condoned by any rationale person.

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65. Comment #149937 by InYourFaceNewYorker on March 26, 2008 at 10:44 am

The only reason that these other kids aren't being taken away is because this incident had to do with religion... and we have to "respect" it, despite the fact that this resulted in a child's death. I am guessing they're Christian Scientists? How did the kid even live for 30 days without insulin shots or whatever?

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66. Comment #149939 by phil rimmer on March 26, 2008 at 10:47 am

In early 2001-FEB, Amanda Bates, 13, died from diabetes in Grand Junction, CO. Her parents withheld medical treatment. Her death was ruled a homicide by the Mesa County coroner, Dr. Rob Kurtzman.

Her parents were from the "Church of the First Born".

From Double Bass's link

Other Comments by phil rimmer

67. Comment #149943 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 10:50 am

bastards......

Other Comments by Prankster

68. Comment #149952 by liberalartist on March 26, 2008 at 10:59 am

For people to embrace this type of barbaric religiosity, they must be insane. If this isn't child abuse, I sure don't know what is. If I lived in Wisconsin, I would be contacting the attorney general right now demanding they prosecute the parents for, at minimum, negligent homicide. Those kids need to be removed from that home pronto. The parents have already proved they are incapable of caring for them.

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69. Comment #149978 by Double Bass Atheist on March 26, 2008 at 11:28 am

My avatar usually makes people laugh...
But today, it's a truly sad and sobering reminder of reality of theistic thinking, and its end result.

Sorry everyone, but this story has kinda crapped all over my day.

Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist

70. Comment #149979 by notsobad on March 26, 2008 at 11:31 am

Of course these people cannot understand that there is no place for a benevolent god in this world if they don't mind him letting their kid die because they are not screwed in his ass deep enough.

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71. Comment #149989 by nlewkowitz on March 26, 2008 at 11:34 am

At least they put their money where their mouth is...most 'devout' people would have eventually taken her to a doctor.

Frightening...unbelievable...incredibly sad.

Other Comments by nlewkowitz

72. Comment #149990 by v4ri4bl3 on March 26, 2008 at 11:35 am

For those of you as concerned as I am, here is the legal definition for Neglect in Wisconsin State legislature ï¿½" (d) "Neglect" means failure, refusal or inability on the part of a caregiver, for reasons other than poverty, to provide necessary care, food, clothing, medical or dental care or shelter so as to seriously endanger the physical health of the child.

[Source: http://nxt.legis.state.wi.us/nxt/gateway.dll?f=templates&fn=default.htm&vid=WI:Default&d=stats&jd=48.981]

Apparently the only reason that refusal to provide medical treatment would NOT be considered neglect is in the case of Poverty. If poverty is not an excuse this family can use, then I see no reason why they can not be prosecuted. I plan on making a phone call to the Marathon County Department of Social Services to make a complaint, however I don't know if this is the best idea.

MARATHON COUNTY DEPARTMENT OF SOCIAL SERVICES
400 East Thomas Street
Wausau, WI 54403

Office Hours: 715-261-7500
After Hours: 715-261-1200

FAX: 715-261-7510

[Source: http://www.dhfs.state.wi.us/Children/CPS/ctyinfo/mrthon.HTM]

Other Comments by v4ri4bl3

73. Comment #149995 by Alex1956 on March 26, 2008 at 11:39 am

What makes this even sadder is that it's not a case where the girl had cancer or something where treatment could not guarantee a positive outcome. Type 1 diabetes is totally treatable with insulin and, at 11, the girl was even old enough to take charge of a lot of her treatment.

It's a tragedy, and while the parents obviously bear significant fault, I can totally believe that their beliefs were honestly held. The real culprit is a society that respects religious beliefs to the point where such things are possible. If we acknowledged right off the bat that all religious beliefs are unfounded, then they would not enjoy the kind of respect necessary to allow the delusions which the parents here obviously suffered to flourish. After all, if I believe in Santa Claus I can't very well criticize you for believing in the Easter Bunny.

Sad, sad, sad.

Other Comments by Alex1956

74. Comment #150001 by Divineosaur on March 26, 2008 at 11:46 am

They were not praying to me! Now when the velocirapture comes, they will be left 70 million years behind!

I know this is nothing to joke about but when you can do nothing else...

Other Comments by Divineosaur

75. Comment #150010 by Eirik Hassel on March 26, 2008 at 11:53 am

These guys are obviously mentally retarded, and present a huge danger to others and themselves included.

Think about those poor little children!

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76. Comment #150011 by Kubenzi on March 26, 2008 at 11:53 am

^thanks for that jtd.i didnt read through most of it as i wanted to get the links posted here ASAP.So this woman uses "ye" as a normal part of her vocabulary.that is it.this little girl was the victim of a RELIGION FETISH.full stop.

As sad as i would imagine the girls siblings are over this,i can't help but wonder if the attention and possible repurcussions of thier parents actions have thoughts running through the back of thier minds like "liberation".

Other Comments by Kubenzi

77. Comment #150012 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 11:53 am

Sad as it is Double Bass Atheist I wouldn't let it bum you out- the parents will go through life knowing full well the lack of action fully contributed to the daughters death not some misguided perceived lack of faith on their part-just rewards I think and punishment enough-for now or until they are proescuted-fuck 'em anyway.....

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78. Comment #150013 by leviticus on March 26, 2008 at 11:55 am

Double Bass Atheist's avatar does say a great deal about how and why tragedies such as this happen. Things like this eat away and my tolerance for belief in any nonsense(religious or not), if you tolerate a little crazy your bound to end up with those who indulge in the delusion to extremes such as this. Sadly this will not even be close to the last time a child will die because of the delusion of faith.

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79. Comment #150014 by phil rimmer on March 26, 2008 at 11:56 am

I wonder if such monstrous derelictions of parental duty might not be prosecuted under a new law? Such a law could be based on Richard Dawkin's profound and subtle point that labeling your child as a follower of your own faith is an abuse of that child's rights.

Creating a legal principle that a belief, and the practices that flow from it, are not to be forced on others against their will, whilst in the abstract unenforceable, may nevertheless create the opportunity for an intervention by a concerned doctor or a relative.

Simply knowing that others are watching critically may be sufficiently effective in deterring such behavior in people prone to looking over their shoulders anxiously.

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80. Comment #150021 by randumbness on March 26, 2008 at 12:02 pm

Sadly, what these parents did appears to be LEGAL in WI. This is taken directly from http://www.thedailypage.com/daily/article.php?article=22053

[]State statute 948.03(6) provides an exemption from the law against failing to act to protect children from bodily harm for what is referred to as "Treatment through prayer." The statute says: "A person is not guilty of an offense under this section solely because he or she provides a child with treatment by spiritual means through prayer alone for healing in accordance with the religious method of healing ... in lieu of medical or surgical treatment."[]

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81. Comment #150023 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 12:03 pm

Have to agree with phil rimmer on his last point but can't see any Muslim groups agreeing to legislation such as this let alone any branch or offshoot of the Xtian faith-they'd be screaming about human rights abuses just putting the idea to them surely?

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82. Comment #150027 by steveroot on March 26, 2008 at 12:05 pm

53. Comment #149847 by Kubenzi on March 26, 2008 at 9:49 am
looks like the second link i posted has been cleared out by the site admin at "americaslastdays".

Too late: I saw it, as hopefully did many others. People that stupid should not be allowed to breed.
Ste5e

Other Comments by steveroot

83. Comment #150033 by 7Fred7 on March 26, 2008 at 12:08 pm

Prankster: "Sorry 7Fred7 but the fact they prayed for the child to live while actually watching the poor kid waste and die says neglect to me, faith or lack of it notwithstanding.

- No apology necessary, Prankster. I share your feelings. Yet the indications are that they were convinced that they were taking the right action, and that their child would recover. In that case, it could not be wilful neglect.

Prankster: "Saying religion is the guilty party is wrong. I feel the parents are still to blame and to that end should be charged."

- We will have to disagree. The criminal act in this issue is the teaching of the religious beliefs by which they have clearly been deluded, and which is directly responsible for this tragedy.

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84. Comment #150041 by scottishgeologist on March 26, 2008 at 12:13 pm

That story is sickening. Perhaps one of our theists would like to comment on it.

Actually, David Robertson, you reading this? Care to comment? Presumably you believe in the "power of prayer". Elders and ministers in your denomination among others, are always praying for "those laid aside on beds of sickness"

So, a few questions.

1) were these faith heads wrong in praying for their daughter?

2) If so , why?

After all, in your holy book it says: "And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive." Matthew 21:22

Or in the NIV, for the hip trendy, "we're-not-really-fundies-we're-kewl" it says:
"If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer"

Silly me, of course, how could I forget? Your prayer for Â£87 for a bus trip - that gets answered. Prayer for sick children or for abducted kids (like Madeleine McCann) thats a no-no....

Man, that God of yours, he's got a really really odd sense of priorities....

SG

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85. Comment #150049 by phil rimmer on March 26, 2008 at 12:18 pm

And I have to agree with prankster the chances of legislation are very slight. Even in somewhere like Sweden where it stands a glimmer of a chance it would probably be shot down by the Vegan lobby.

However, I feel RD's meme, about the abuse of labeling children, is key to the problem.

Aside- Wouldn't it be nice if churches didn't allow children in under (say) 14 but instead laid on general religious and moral education separate from the main congregation? Wouldn't it be nice if even one church did it, claiming it to be a more moral and respectful treatment of children?

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86. Comment #150053 by Verylee on March 26, 2008 at 12:20 pm

Comment by scottishgeologist

That story is sickening. Perhaps one of our theists would like to comment on it.

I was thinking the same, but I think there will be silence or the usual "It's not my dog". With apologies to Monsieur Clouseau.

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87. Comment #150056 by LaTomate on March 26, 2008 at 12:23 pm

In France there is a criminal offense called "non assistance to person in danger". This means if you see someone in danger and do not take appropriate action, resulting in that person's suffering or death, you are a criminal.

These parents would be prosecuted in France, religion or no.

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88. Comment #150062 by scottishgeologist on March 26, 2008 at 12:26 pm

Verylee,

Probably have to agree with you there. Yet this business of the "power of prayer" lies right on the very interface of the "supernatural" and the "natural"

People like the theists who argue that rationalists are limited by their presuppositions of "no supernatural" actually have an opportunity here to show that their "god" has actually got some relevance - to show that there IS something else above and beyond the empirical.

No doubt we'll get the usual pish about "not testing god" or "his ways are mysterious" and all that verbal limbo dancing to try to explain it away.

Instead of the glaringly obvious: PRAYER DOES NOT WORK - THERE IS NO GOD.

Man, it gets frustrating...

SG

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89. Comment #150067 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 12:29 pm

phil rimmer

The trouble is children will be allowed in churches (and mosques and temples)so that vampire preists and vicars can get em while they are young and impressionable-I stopped going after my catholic confirmation (around 11 yrs old-boy that was hoot) and never went back until my late mothers funeral some 6 years ago-also as an aside I thought Sunday schools provided the sort of service you mention in your posting-I may be wrong but I never went....

I'd still give children religious schooling but from the age of say 14 onwards ask them to make an informed choice regarding religion and whether they wish to carry on in whatever faith they've been schooled or discard it altogether

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90. Comment #150079 by phil rimmer on March 26, 2008 at 12:45 pm

Prankster

Sunday school classes were rarely (in my experience) offered as specific alternatives to the church service itself and run at the same time. (Presumably because the opportunity for exposing impressionable young minds to the theatre and music was too much to pass up for the vampiric classes.) Nor were they of a general religious and moral nature.

An enlightened church (Stop laughing at the back!) might be persuaded that they have a duty to enlighten and not indoctrinate....

Other Comments by phil rimmer

91. Comment #150085 by Verylee on March 26, 2008 at 12:51 pm

No doubt we'll get the usual pish about "not testing god" or "his ways are mysterious" and all that verbal limbo dancing to try to explain it away.
Instead of the glaringly obvious: PRAYER DOES NOT WORK - THERE IS NO GOD

As in "Are you calling me deluded? HOW very dare you"!

Other Comments by Verylee

92. Comment #150089 by phil rimmer on March 26, 2008 at 12:52 pm

In fact, I've just been reminded that Sunday School in my village was run after the service so junior could do bible studies whilst mum and dad nipped home and got biblical in peace and quiet....(shudder)

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93. Comment #150094 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 12:58 pm

phil rimmer

*wipes tears of mirth from eyes* an enlightened church might be a good idea but if they can't recruit or indoctrinate they eventually go to the wall surely?

Might be a good thing actually-I'd plump for the legal framework to be put in place to stop religious indoctrination from a young age and combine it with children making an informed choice prior to leaving school-anything to prevent religious indoctrination and hopefully preventing future fuck-ups like this from happening

Sorry for intemperate language but sometimes swearing is the only option

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94. Comment #150100 by phil rimmer on March 26, 2008 at 1:00 pm

an enlightened church might be a good idea but if they can't recruit or indoctrinate they eventually go to the wall surely?

Sshhh!

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95. Comment #150108 by the_ultimate_samurai on March 26, 2008 at 1:07 pm

criminal negligence plain and simple. and they still hold out hope of their child being RESSURECTED! these people need some bloody schooling.

"The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said. "

under investigation, they let their child die and did nothing, if they were standing around laughing instead of praying you wouldnt think twice about arresting them. isnt there some child protection law that you can take away someones children if the parent is too stupid to raise a child?

these parent lack the understanding of how to take care of a child, take the surviving children away and ask them to pray that they return.

Other Comments by the_ultimate_samurai

96. Comment #150110 by jonjermey on March 26, 2008 at 1:10 pm

And what did all the other prayer group members say while this child was dying? 'Keep it up, honey, God will come through?' ANYONE who knew about this and didn't speak up should be prosecuted for culpable homicide.

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97. Comment #150113 by shemp333 on March 26, 2008 at 1:11 pm

Just a perfect example of how dangerous faith (non-thinking) can be. Religion is completely devoid of modern usefulness.

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98. Comment #150118 by discipline on March 26, 2008 at 1:14 pm

Disgusting.

I encourage everybody here to write a (calm, civil) letter to the Police Chief mentioned in this story. Urge him to bring charges against these idiots. The contact info:

http://www.everestmetropolice.org/empd_contact.htm

24 Hour Non-Emergency - 715-261-1200

Department Office - 715-359-4202 (8am-5pm Monday - Friday)

Crime Stoppers - 1-800-559-4203

Schofield & Weston Municipal Court - 359-3333

District Attorney's Office & Victim Witness - 261-1111

Email Us - empd@everestmetropolice.org

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99. Comment #150119 by Corylus on March 26, 2008 at 1:15 pm

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

What a vile conflict that the surviving children will have to deal with. Either believe that God was enough of a bastard to deem their parent's faith not strong enough and let their sister die or come to the conclusion that the negligence and ignorance of their parents killed her.

Either way - pure love where it is expected is lacking. Someone has let them down. Badly. They now have a childhood experience that no-one they meet will be able to understand or relate to. Telling potential friends and; when they are older; partners about this will be a huge hurdle to overcome. Trust will not come easy.

They will be indescribably lonely.

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100. Comment #150123 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 1:20 pm

Truly depressing night on this thread-anyone heard from Double Bass Atheist-I know he was pissed off over this?

Hope he/she is ok?

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