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Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
by Fox News
Thanks to Kubenzi for the link.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 | PermalinkComments 101 - 150 of 369 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers102. Comment #150128 by MelM on March 26, 2008 at 1:27 pm
Where religious faith and bullshit are taught, it's no surprise that some people take both very seriously.As we see, lots of people are taking religion very seriously. Trying to shut down lines of research and the science of biology, will do on a large scale what these parents did to their daughter--ignore science and reason. "God did it" will never result in curing anything or be of any other benefit to humanity. "Moderates" share responsibility in this.
Faith is indeed a vice; it facilitates religious delusions then shackles people to them. Shackled by faith to the delusions of faith--what could be more destructive of a mind than that?
Other Comments by MelM
103. Comment #150133 by jjberg on March 26, 2008 at 1:32 pm
I live just an hour south of Wausau/Weston. This is absolutely disgusting, to claim there are no signs of abuse is absurd...Other Comments by jjberg
104. Comment #150135 by rod-the-farmer on March 26, 2008 at 1:35 pm
For those asking if charges can be laid, the following is a link to a story about a 19-year old Canadian man in a very religious family, who was tied to a chair for a week, during an attempted exorcism. The youth then died.http://lfpress.ca/newsstand/News/International/2008/03/24/5085321-sun.html
According to a second link
http://www.rickross.com/reference/exorcism/exorcism8.html
the parents pleaded guilty to manslaughter, and the father was sentenced to four years in penitentiary.
Other Comments by rod-the-farmer
105. Comment #150142 by Prankster on March 26, 2008 at 1:45 pm
SteverootThanks for that-
Prankster
Other Comments by Prankster
106. Comment #150143 by notsobad on March 26, 2008 at 1:45 pm
Where religious faith and bullshit are taught, it's no surprise that some people take both very seriously.
Which in itself is regarded as a virtue. It's a well thought-out con.
Other Comments by notsobad
107. Comment #150146 by sarah95 on March 26, 2008 at 1:47 pm
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
No signs of abuse? BULLSHIT. Lock those monstrous parents up and give the kids access to medical care. No "buts" about it. Any complications of such a punishment and readjustment for the other children cannot possibly outweigh the risks posed to their safety by their mentally ill parents.
Other Comments by sarah95
108. Comment #150187 by MelM on March 26, 2008 at 2:40 pm
OT (From Florida)Bad newsIt now has to go through the legislature so it isn't a done deal.
March 26th, 2008 by Brandon Haught
Storms' "academic freedom" bill was approved by the education committee on a 4-1 vote.
http://www.flascience.org/wp/?p=516
Other Comments by MelM
109. Comment #150192 by phatbat on March 26, 2008 at 2:46 pm
Disgusting.
In England you can be prosecuted for not taking your pet to the vet if it is in need of medical attention and suffering at all. Even if it only has skin iritation!!
I thought USA had similar laws. It's utterly amazing that as soon as the object of the suffering is a child suddenly it becomes a grey area.
Proof surely that prayer does nothing - This situation looks even worse for an omnipitant God that also loves us. He didn't just not save a girl who was being prayed for, he was not saving a girl's life who's life was only at risk BECAUSE of the ambiguous, scant, un-future proofed information he decided to disseminate in the middle east 2000 years ago. You'd think he would have felt some responsibility for the predicament the girl found herself in.
But then again it makes complete sense if God wasn't there or doesn't answer prayers.
Other Comments by phatbat
110. Comment #150194 by Goldy on March 26, 2008 at 2:47 pm
Reading this and then seeing this http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7304592.stm makes me feel that some people really do not deserve to have children.I also have to ask where the religious are in these discussions? They swarm over anything when Darwin or evolution is mentioned...
Other Comments by Goldy
111. Comment #150198 by 4horsefins on March 26, 2008 at 2:52 pm
What if they decided to stop feeding one of their babies...instead said "We knew if we stopped feeding the baby, we could just pray and dog would pick up our slack" result " our baby is dead... dog must be mad at us...My question is "Would this be illegal?"Other Comments by 4horsefins
112. Comment #150213 by mmurray on March 26, 2008 at 3:18 pm
Even if someone believed in God why would they think that she is going to bend the rules of the cosmos and do a miracle just for them. She has already provided them with insulin and made sure they live in a country where then can access it -- how many more miracles do they want ? This tragedy kind of resonates with this quote on Pharyngula I read last night:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/03/quote_of_the_week.php
That exemption in the Wisconsin law is scary.
Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
113. Comment #150216 by NJS on March 26, 2008 at 3:23 pm
I wondered if they prayed to Satan whether the police would still say "no signs of abuse".Other Comments by NJS
114. Comment #150221 by secondsoprano on March 26, 2008 at 3:28 pm
Are we sure this is true? I dunno, it just has that "urban myth" feel to it.But maybe that's just wishful thinking...
Other Comments by secondsoprano
115. Comment #150230 by Lucas on March 26, 2008 at 3:38 pm
Spinoza - I'll grant that (back in post #5), but I think willfully abandoning your child to die is worth punishment. I'm not a fan of corporal punishment, at least when it is carried out the way that the US does it, and I would rather there was no death penalty at all written into the law. However, it's times like these that I wish some vigilante was around to take care of these things. Legally, these parents should be forced to forfeit their children and stand trial for manslaughter, and not the involuntary type. They should not see green grass ever again. Morally, they should forfeit their lives. Argue if you want, but I stand by the idea that some actions are so heinous that they warrant severe punishment. Other Comments by Lucas
116. Comment #150241 by Acardia on March 26, 2008 at 3:50 pm
Well I live in Wausau and Weston is only separated by a sign that says it is separated. This is insanely messed up. Front page of the paper clearly has it marked. and stories have nice comment sections on them although Mr. Wasson the admin is getting a little ban and closing thread happy.http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage
A little bit of information, to share. This Vergin guy is a tool, screwed the Wausau fire department with a broken half a million dollar fire truck when they merged a few years ago. Also the police departments are possibly going to merge before he retires next winter. Just last week this incident happened in his jurisdiction:
http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080323/WDH0101/803230608
The comments on that are amazing. not to mention the waste of tax dollars.
Also this one guy mentioned from "Big Alive Church" tries to recruit youth to his congregation through using decent local musical acts (and paying them well) to play at his place. (these bands are far from Christian and are starving too much to turn down the money.)
Other Comments by Acardia
117. Comment #150260 by jamesspills on March 26, 2008 at 4:11 pm
This...so sad.The thing is moderate Christians will agree with each and everyone one of us on this site that the parents should have gotten medical help. These parents however actually believe more in the bible and its fairy tales than the moderates. They are "better" christians than them. According to their bible this should have worked out.
I'm worried about the other two kids, one thinks they should be taken away from the parents.
Other Comments by jamesspills
118. Comment #150264 by mmurray on March 26, 2008 at 4:17 pm
These parents however actually believe more in the bible and its fairy tales than the moderates. They are "better" christians than them. According to their bible this should have worked out.
Is that really true ? It is a long time now since I read then bible but I don't recall it being specific about how god is going to answer the prayer. Maybe insulin treatment is god's answer ? If the parents really believe that god doesn't want them to help themselves why do they bother eating?
Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
119. Comment #150285 by hmcook87 on March 26, 2008 at 4:48 pm
charge them with manslaughter, hopefully that will encourage them to get medical attention next time one of their children gets sick.Other Comments by hmcook87
120. Comment #150295 by Hobbit on March 26, 2008 at 5:00 pm
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
WTF!!!!
No signs of abuse??? They have just witnessed their sister die a horrible death whilst their parents did nothing! If that is not abuse, I'd hate to see what this moron classes as abuse!
As for review of possible charges! POSSIBLE CHARGES!! WTF again. If these people had taken their daughter to a doctor and the doctor told them that the only cure was to pray, what do you think would happen to the doctor?
He / she would be struck off and charged with medical negligence, then sued.
And these morons are allowed to breed! You need a license to own a dog for crap sake, but any f*@k wit can have kids.
The sooner religion dies the better!
Other Comments by Hobbit
121. Comment #150296 by Arcturus on March 26, 2008 at 5:00 pm
"There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."This would have been funny if the girl didn't die.
Other Comments by Arcturus
122. Comment #150297 by jamesspills on March 26, 2008 at 5:01 pm
mmurry, That is a good question. I've often wondered why the most devout christians do no simply lie down in a field and have faith that god will provide for them. I base what I said on the following passage. John 14: 12-14."12 I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father. 13 And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. 14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
Other Comments by jamesspills
123. Comment #150313 by mmurray on March 26, 2008 at 5:26 pm
jamesspills: "You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it." OK that's pretty straightforward isn't it! Jesus really needed a good lawyer and a few political advisors to look through his speeches.
Thanks - Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
124. Comment #150315 by FightingFalcon on March 26, 2008 at 5:27 pm
I don't know - for anti-government Libertarians like myself, I've always had a hard time with issues like these. When do children become old enough to legitimately make decisions for themselves? I'm faced with two evil prospects here. On the one hand a girl dies based on religious idiocy that deserves condemnation beyond what words can describe. On the other hand, the other option is the government interfering in our private homes and telling us what is and isn't acceptable. After Terri Schiavo (hopefully the European posters know what I'm talking about here), I've grown very hostile to government intervention in private matters such as this.
Other Comments by FightingFalcon
125. Comment #150316 by markg on March 26, 2008 at 5:32 pm
According to http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=732496
which is the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel (the states' biggest newspaper) website:
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin...said he expect the investigation to wrap up by Friday and the findings to be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges.
Other Comments by markg
126. Comment #150317 by Geoff on March 26, 2008 at 5:32 pm
It's lucky our morals come from god, isn't it? Who knows what might have happened otherwise. Other Comments by Geoff
127. Comment #150318 by FightingFalcon on March 26, 2008 at 5:33 pm
That story is sickening. Perhaps one of our theists would like to comment on it.Actually, David Robertson, you reading this? Care to comment? Presumably you believe in the "power of prayer". Elders and ministers in your denomination among others, are always praying for "those laid aside on beds of sickness"
What do you expect a believer to say? Being a former very devout Theist myself, allow me to answer for him:
A Theist would argue that this girl's suffering is now over and she is enjoying paradise in Heaven. Her family must be comforted by the fact that God has a plan for everyone and that He is taking care of both the girl and the family. They will be reunited in Heaven. If anything, this act showed God's mercy by ending her pain and bringing her to eternal paradise.
UGH....I feel dirty after writing that. I'm going to take a shower.
Other Comments by FightingFalcon
128. Comment #150329 by Double Bass Atheist on March 26, 2008 at 5:51 pm
Comment #150123 by Prankster
Truly depressing night on this thread-anyone heard from Double Bass Atheist-I know he was pissed off over this?
Hope he/she is ok?
Thank you for your concern, Prankster. Steveroot is correct - I'm fine. It's just been one of those weeks, ya know? Extra BS at work doesn't help either.
After I made my initial comment on this story, I suddenly saw my avatar in an entirely new light... and frankly, it bummed me out.
When I think about issues like this story, I'm reminded of why we battle religion and the twisted thinking that goes with it. From things like 911, to all the craziness with "Expelled", to this poor little girl - just when are these people going to wakeup?! Will they ever???
PS. I'm a guy, BTW. ;-D
Other Comments by Double Bass Atheist
129. Comment #150338 by steveroot on March 26, 2008 at 6:09 pm
126. Comment #150315 by FightingFalcon on March 26, 2008 at 5:27 pm
I don't know - for anti-government Libertarians like myself, I've always had a hard time with issues like these...
On the one hand a girl dies based on religious idiocy that deserves condemnation beyond what words can describe. On the other hand, the other option is the government interfering in our private homes and telling us what is and isn't acceptable.
This is one of the proper functions of government, in my opinion: to protect its citizens in dangerous circumstances. The extent of the involvement does not have to be so black and white; the issue here is providing appropriate care in a case where the consequences are, literally, life or death. The Terri Schiavo case was different, since she was, by all reasonable assessments, brain-dead (confirmed by subsequent autopsy). The government's involvement here was not about protecting a citizen, but political grandstanding and sucking up to the religious right.
Ste5e
Ah, I see DBA is back and OK!
Other Comments by steveroot
130. Comment #150342 by Adam Morrison on March 26, 2008 at 6:21 pm
This is why having 'faith' considered a virtue is dangerous. The child's parents should have their children taken away. That is not a safe home, imagine if one develops a severe illness. Maybe they can pray away pneumonia? Disgusting.
The Greeks had the right idea in recognizing there was a lot of self-delusion and danger in faith.
Other Comments by Adam Morrison
131. Comment #150345 by troyreynolds86 on March 26, 2008 at 6:34 pm
My heart goes out to any person that cared for that little girl and wasn't a co-conspirator in her death.I do wonder, though, how long it will be before this girl's parents (or should I say sperm and egg donor, for they failed in any litmus test of parenting that I could imagine) rationalize away any responsibility in her death? When shall "I did not have faith enough" so sickeningly morph into "Thy will be done"? Barring prosecution I can not help but to speculate that they will dance away from this with nothing more that a momentary shame in their failure to the big prick in the sky followed by a greater appreciation for all-loving nature of the non-existent. Such are the dodges when one cons one's own mind.
Troy
Other Comments by troyreynolds86
132. Comment #150366 by nancy on March 26, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Is it really restricting religious freedom to force parents to ger medical help for all underage children since they can't choose for themselves? Other Comments by nancy
133. Comment #150368 by MelM on March 26, 2008 at 7:22 pm
Following the link from (118. Comment #150241 by Acardia), we find "Unleavend Bread Ministries" which the mother--according to the news story--had some contact with, although it's hard to see how much, just from the news story.http://www.wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080326/WDH0101/80326101/1981
Here's a page of testimonials at UBM about healing.
http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=TestimoniesHealings
This one is about curing uneven tire wear.
http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=tirewear-rea
Other Comments by MelM
134. Comment #150369 by funflower on March 26, 2008 at 7:23 pm
Same thing happened in Oregon earlier this month.Prosecutors are reviewing the death of a 15-month-old girl a medical examiner says could have been saved if she had been treated with antibiotics.
The Oregonian newspaper quoted Dr. Christopher Young, a deputy state medical examiner, as saying that Ava Worthington died March 2 at home from bacterial bronchial pneumonia and infection.
He said both conditions could have been prevented or treated with antibiotics, and the child's breathing was further compromised by a benign cyst that had never been medically addressed and could have been removed from her neck, The Oregonian reported Saturday.
If prosecuted, the paper said, Ava Worthington's parents would be the first members of Oregon City's Followers of Christ, a fundamentalist Christian denomination, to face charges for failing to seek medical treatment for a gravely ill child.
"We are reviewing the case, and our investigation is progressing," said Greg Horner, Clackamas County chief deputy district attorney. He did not release the parents' names.
(more)
http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_032408_news_faith_healing_death_15_month_girl_.2096e0ed.html
Other Comments by funflower
135. Comment #150372 by MakingBelieve on March 26, 2008 at 7:32 pm
Tragic, sad, offensive, pathetic, disgusting, depressing, scary, absurd, frustrating, frightening.. These only hint at the feelings this invokes in normal rational people.And the WI law sanctions the negligent abuse of children by the religiously deluded. I will add another word - outrageous! Shame on WI lawmakers.
Other Comments by MakingBelieve
136. Comment #150375 by mmurray on March 26, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Thanks MelM that is so good I can't help repeating it here
Hello brethren. About a couple months ago, our truck was having strange wear on its tires. A Christian friend, who was a tire expert, concluded that there was a problem with the front-end of the vehicle. So we scheduled an appointment for the Toyota auto shop. After listening to David's testimonies from his Wilderness DVD as well as other UBM testimonies, we decided to command the truck to be healed in the Name of Jesus. Well, soon after this prayer, the Lord reminded me about the appointment I had already made. So, our works needed to follow our faith. I called and cancelled the appointment. We considered it a done deal. Well, yesterday, our friend who originally looked at the tires said that the wear was now gone AND in fact there was smooth wear distribution on the tires. The Lord fixed the front-end perfectly! Our friend was praising the Lord too! What an awesome God we have!!!
I wonder if this works for completely worn tires. As it happens I just had a ring from the guy servicing my car and I need $600 worth of new tires. I said go ahead but I wonder if I should pray and then ring him back and ask him to check the tread again ?
Michael
PS: I wonder what they would do if the tires wore in the shape of a crucifix ?
Other Comments by mmurray
137. Comment #150385 by steveroot on March 26, 2008 at 7:52 pm
The Lord fixed the front-end perfectly!
Hmmm... the lord must have taken auto shop in high school. Well, if tires, tie-rods and ball joints are all he can fix, he's not much of a lord. Let me see him service the fuel injectors on my Saab!
Ste5e
Other Comments by steveroot
138. Comment #150389 by oshottan on March 26, 2008 at 8:12 pm
I'd like to line those parents up in front of a firing squad and tell them to pray that the bullets miss them.Other Comments by oshottan
139. Comment #150394 by BT Murtagh on March 26, 2008 at 8:32 pm
Damn, I just paid $175 for repairs to my pickup truck's ignition system that didn't even fix the problem. Who knew I could have just prayed them away? Does God cover ancient Fords?On a more serious note, the stupid tire wear story shows the sharp end of the idiocy here; it isn't just that these idiots believe that Gawd can fix all their problems, but they also believe that he will do so if and only if they refuse to fix the problem themselves through ordinary secular means.
People with only normal levels of religidiocy would pray for a cure but in the meantime inject the insulin. That's relatively harmless... except that that's probably the level the police chief is at, and it seems to be warping his judgment to the point where a needlessly dead sibling is "no reason to remove" the remaining children.
Other Comments by BT Murtagh
140. Comment #150395 by secondsoprano on March 26, 2008 at 8:36 pm
I have been spending far too much reading these wacko posts on that link.I felt compelled to share Kathryn, my 7-year-old's, testimony of God in her life.
Her bedtime book is the Bible which I read to her. She does not understand it all but listens. She asked me tonight if she could share some miracles from the Lord.
She told me that when she went to bed last night she started getting a headache. She said in her own words, "I rebuked the headache in Jesus' Name."
For the first time in a long time, she did not get out of bed her usual 3-4 times for something trivial. She went right to sleep and was happy to tell me about what God did for her the next day. She said it never bothered her again.
She also said she prayed her remaining 5 fish would live as 7 had died the day before. All are alive and she was thrilled.
It is exciting to hear her words as she is using words in the correct way straight from the Word of God.
I need to explain that her "headache" at bedtime had become a habit. She liked to delay bed in any manner possible and for weeks had complained of sudden headaches only at bedtime. She would ask for an aspirin. I used to give in and give her one just so I could then rest but I knew it to be wrong. I told her she was relying on medicine instead of God.
Now the problem is gone as she figured out, by the grace of God, how to rebuke in Jesus' Name.
How dumb is this woman? Her poor brainwashed 7 year old is smarter than she is. She was sick of the "headache" story, but couldn't admit they were made up, but she knew that if she used "words in the correct way straight from Jesus" her mom would swallow it whole.
I don't know whether to be pleased that this poor kid still has some independent thought, or despair at the chances of her making it through childhood unscathed...
Other Comments by secondsoprano
141. Comment #150398 by secondsoprano on March 26, 2008 at 8:41 pm
OK, now this one is seriously worrying. This woman is a trained nurse, and she failed to get medical attention for her child for something she KNEW was extremely serious.http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=amomstrials-christina
My older son Dmishion who is 10 was complaining all day that his stomach hurt. I was not really too concerned until he stopped playing and went and laid down on the couch, doubled over in pain. This was during UBBS on a Sunday night. At this point he was moaning so I began to ask him if he ate anything funny. He said no but that he had to go to the bathroom. After he came out he told me he passed a lot of blood. I went to check and it was a large amount of bright red blood. From my experience as a nurse I knew this was very bad. I have observed a lot of GI bleeds in patients that required blood transfusions and surgical correction etc. The first thing I had to do is say, well I know that is not good but it does not matter because God is able to fix it. Dmishion asked to pray so we did. We also put in a prayer request to Bill and He agreed with us that whatever the problem was God had already fixed it! By the end of the study the stomach pain was completely gone! No more bleeding! Praise God! The Lord is teaching me to trust Him for all things!
Can't someone do something to stop these people?
Other Comments by secondsoprano
142. Comment #150399 by MelM on March 26, 2008 at 8:42 pm
David Eells, the head witch doctor at UBM certainly deserves moral condemnation--hopefully, enough to shut down his pathetic 'ministry'.Other Comments by MelM
143. Comment #150406 by nancy on March 26, 2008 at 9:02 pm
To mmurray
when you ask why these people bother eating, I have to agree.
Just watched Jesus Camp and it's unbelieveable how they just don't see the contradiction. The female youth minister stands up and proclaims that God can fix anything and "the world needs fixin'". So, she tells the kids, "we gotta go out and fix the world" or some quote like that.
So, why not just tell god to do it? I mean, which is it? Can he or can't he? Omnipotent or impotent? Time to decide.
Other Comments by nancy
144. Comment #150407 by MelM on March 26, 2008 at 9:03 pm
I'll just bet Madeline Neumann's parents won't be putting a testimonial on UBM although they certainly should.These people haven't even got sense enough to sneak in a little bit of rationality and let their 'lord' work through a doctor; no, they want magic--reason eliminated entirely by faith. Faith belongs to the field of psychopathology and morally, it's a vice. New book: "The Delusions Of Faith And The Achievements of Reason" by ????
Other Comments by MelM
145. Comment #150411 by MelM on March 26, 2008 at 9:13 pm
I love my iPod so I'm most happy to hear that God can heal one.http://www.americaslastdays.com/?page=ipod-suani
Edit: I'm closing the UBM link; I can't take any more of this. Enough.
Other Comments by MelM
146. Comment #150414 by DasSquid on March 26, 2008 at 9:24 pm
I know I'm a cynnical hate filled man, but bare with me.
If the atheist movement as a whole can make a big enough fuss about this, ala have as many of the big guns make a fuss over this specific case (or any of the related cases pointed out by the fellows here) then we can turn this into the biggest PR fiasco for the Xians in America.
If we were organised enough, which we likely aren't, we could really hammer in Dawkins' Child Abuse claim, and just really throw it in their faces if they EVER try to argue about this in the future. Next time some redneck calls a radio show to fumble out of his wretched mouth something resembling a question at The esteemed Dawkins about Child Abuse (I'm pretty sure it's been asked before) not only should the reply be about the labelling, but a VERY poignant example made by this case.
Even the dumbest individual can see the problem with this case.
As a side note, these 'parents' should be taken out back and shot, at LEAST the other children MUST BE REMOVED FROM THEIR CARE IMMEDIATELY!
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147. Comment #150418 by secondsoprano on March 26, 2008 at 9:36 pm
If the atheist movement as a whole can make a big enough fuss about this, ala have as many of the big guns make a fuss over this specific case (or any of the related cases pointed out by the fellows here) then we can turn this into the biggest PR fiasco for the Xians in America.
Nice try, but you'll get the "not my Christianity" argument every time.
Which, interestingly is the same argument these fruitloops use themselves, kinda reversed.
Their testimonials (which, like MelM, I have spent far too much time reading today) are full of excited declarations that they have seen the light and 'left the apostate churches' and that they are now "true Christians". Their enemy is the pope, presbyterians, and other "so-called Christians' who do not completely give their lives (and their children's health, and their tyre tread) to the Lord.
I think they would be astounded to hear that there are people who not only haven't given their lives to jesus, but DON'T EVEN BELIEVE GOD EXISTS!!! That would just be too weird to contemplate.
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148. Comment #150420 by MelM on March 26, 2008 at 9:49 pm
If no atheist organization issues press releases, I suggest that they start. I note that the EXPELLED people issued a press release over Business Wire about the PZ incident. They used a PR firm also.Just because we're right doesn't mean the world is going to come knocking at our door looking for the truth; we have to get the word out and knock on the world's door; press releases might just do a lot for atheism. This is a link to Business Wire about it's services but maybe another route would be better; I don't know.
http://www.businesswire.com/portal/site/home/?epi_menuItemID=ccb3a5502a39be450d2df854c6908a0c&epi_menuID=800c9778c65e40c6efaaa9e27a808a0c&epi_baseMenuID=384979e8cc48c441ef0130f5c6908a0c
I have no idea how much this kind of service costs; I couldn't find any prices on the site. We really need to at least make our views known about outrages like this and about freedom of speech issues.
Edit: Dope Benedict XVI will be in the U.S. April 15 to 20 and I'll bet he'll have something to say about "respect for religion" and the press will print every word. What will the press have from us to include in their stories?
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149. Comment #150426 by dragonfirematrix on March 26, 2008 at 10:10 pm
The parents of this child should be arrested, put on trial, and given death sentences for what they did to their child.
Religion is sick.
The mind of the religious is a sick state of being, but this sickness should not be excused as an insanity defense. The parents should be made to pay the ultimate price for their stupidity.
Why is the BS happening in the 21st century? Why is it being tolerated?
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150. Comment #150428 by ghuckin on March 26, 2008 at 10:20 pm
Does this make the Bible the perfect alibi for a murder? What if the child was giving them grief? Treating a serious medical condition with prayer makes it look like they are pious in the extreme, rather than cynical child-abusers.
Prayer: How to do nothing and look like you are helping.
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Over 1.5 million copies sold
Books by Richard Dawkins
The Oxford Book of Modern Science Writing
by Richard Dawkins
The Selfish Gene
by Richard Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker
by Richard Dawkins
The Ancestor's Tale
by Richard Dawkins
Unweaving the Rainbow
by Richard Dawkins
101. Comment #150126 by steveroot on March 26, 2008 at 1:26 pm
Maybe not. Maybe they will continue to be deluded and try to live up to their (imaginary) god's expectations. Pathetic, but possible.
He'll be OK.
Ste5e
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