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Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
by Fox News
Thanks to Kubenzi for the link.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 | PermalinkComments 201 - 250 of 369 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers202. Comment #151158 by Quetzalcoatl on March 28, 2008 at 8:07 am
Epeeist-
I found that site a couple of days ago from a link on the WDH site. Check out this page-
http://www.unleavenedbreadministries.org/?page=dreamsvisions
A nice excerpt from one of the "prophecies"-
The next thing I saw was what looked like black arrows being released by black demonic spirits. These black demons come upon these people in their social function--within the church. These black demons started attacking these people. These people started grabbing their heads as these demons attacked. They started going crazy. They could not handle the demonic pressures and forces of these demonic powers in the last days! I had the sense that there would be those that would say they were Christians, born again, yet would be committed to mental institutions. They would go in for psychiatric care because they could not cope with what was coming upon the earth
Rapture-ready and bat-shit crazy, every one of them.
EDIT- I question your definition of Ben Stein as a third-rate actor. That's too high.
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
203. Comment #151165 by irate_atheist on March 28, 2008 at 8:20 am
205. Comment #151153 by epeeist -
Ah. I wondered where he was. Must go and pay him a compliment or two.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
204. Comment #151248 by Prankster on March 28, 2008 at 10:12 am
Just read the postings by epeeist and the links contained withinVerily are these deluded people or what?
Makes me heave it really does and has me wondering if this type of abuse is just the tip of a very very big iceberg....
When the end of days comes and the rapture happens *yawn* do you think that these are the type of people who god (who doesn't really exist)would want bothering him for all eternity?
Fuck that I'd be heading for hell just for some peace and quiet
Other Comments by Prankster
205. Comment #151270 by logos_tech on March 28, 2008 at 11:00 am
I was repeatedly told, with my upbringing, that a Christian walks by faith not by sight. Of course this never prevented my parents from telling me to look both ways before crossing the street. If only the parents had relied more on observation. Perhaps then their daughter would still be alive. The parents should have looked both ways before crossing the street. Other Comments by logos_tech
206. Comment #151274 by righton on March 28, 2008 at 11:13 am
I really hope some kind of legal action is taken. They have two more kids, what if this happens again? It seems like the general public and the law enforcement are taking the stance of, theres nothing we can really do because it is a religious matter. Another example of people giving way too much respect to others religious beliefs.I think this is blatant child abuse from mentally ill parents. They are not suitable parents and the other two kids should be taken away.
Other Comments by righton
207. Comment #151276 by Philster61 on March 28, 2008 at 11:30 am
Child neglect of the first degree.Whats scary is not just the fact that they let their daughter die in such an excruciating way.But what kind of mindset allows them to watch their daughter die when simple medical treatment will do what praying cannot.In guess we can expect many more similar tragedies to come.Other Comments by Philster61
208. Comment #151281 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 28, 2008 at 11:34 am
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
THAT THEY ALLOWED ONE OF THEIR CHILDREN TO DIE FROM A PREVENTABLE DEMISE ISN'T CHILD ABUSE?! WILL THE OTHER CHILDREN BE SUBJECTED TO SUCH BARBARIC NEGLIGENCE?!
My apologies for shouting, but this is simply INFURIATING!!
Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy
209. Comment #151288 by Marty Hamrick on March 28, 2008 at 12:13 pm
Where is social services when crap like this is going on?I had them on my door step when my youngest daughter had a cold and it lingered for a while.I had a relative who reported me for neglect because she believed that we weren't taking proper care of our daughter.The charge was proven bogus of course,but they still barged into my house,questioned my wife and me,had us endure drug tests and basically humiliated the whole family.Now if they can do that on totally trumped up charges based on allegations from an idiot,why the hell can't they prevent stuff like this happening?People like this are delusional and need to be treated like the fubars they are.This is a religious doctrine that I feel can be interpreted as mentally abusive.
Other Comments by Marty Hamrick
210. Comment #151297 by croatcat on March 28, 2008 at 12:45 pm
A local wing-nut I met lost his business and family, after having visions that he was responsible for saving all the children of the world. He is basically a vagrant now, travelling around the country collecting handouts. He also has visions of red dragons on top of the evil churches. Plainly delusional.
He is part of a growing fringe element that have left the organized churches and are forming what are called "city churches" like jesus meant in the first place. A loose-knit of believers meeting where ever they can. They are girding themselves for the last battle against satan. I just hope they don't get a hold of any "nuclear-jesus-bombs"!
Having two girls of my own in the same age range, I could not under any circumstances understand what was going through those parents heads. Religion kills!
Other Comments by croatcat
211. Comment #151314 by D'Arcy on March 28, 2008 at 1:21 pm
Whilst this tragedy could have easily been avoided had the parents called for medical help, I wonder if they had any medical insurance. Apparently some 47 million Americans have no health insurance. Could this be the reason for their inaction apart from prayer?
Om another topic, I admire much of what Scottish Geologist posts. He pointed out some time ago, that NOT ONE Christian has seen fit so far to come on this thread to defend the parents of this unfortunate ex child.
Come on, Robertson, D'Souza, McGrath, Revcort or whoever else. Come and explain how your God is so merciful. If He's there, (which he isn't), he must be a right mean bastard. Oh dear seem to have a pain in my chest........!
Other Comments by D'Arcy
212. Comment #151374 by MelM on March 28, 2008 at 3:08 pm
The parents had the faith of Abraham but no angel came to prevent the loss of their daughter; fake "knowledge" has very real consequences.Other Comments by MelM
213. Comment #151395 by nancy on March 28, 2008 at 3:57 pm
Colwyn Abernathy
Now if these parent's had merely beaten their kid and the child had lived, they likely would go to jail.
Other Comments by nancy
214. Comment #151399 by Hobbit on March 28, 2008 at 4:05 pm
Whilst this tragedy could have easily been avoided had the parents called for medical help, I wonder if they had any medical insurance. Apparently some 47 million Americans have no health insurance. Could this be the reason for their inaction apart from prayer?
I have a slightly different theory. What if, in the back of these parent's very small brain, they knew that by taking their daughter to a doctor, she would be cured?
If this happened, they would have to acknowledge that their faith in prayer and the sky fairy has been completely misguided and that they have been wasting their lives on this shit as well as passing it on to their children.
Maybe this was too much for their faith brains to take, so they just kept on praying that prayer would work whilst they watched their child die before their eyes.
Just a theory on how fucked up faith head brains function and rationalise this bullshit to themselves.
Other Comments by Hobbit
215. Comment #151412 by AtheistJon on March 28, 2008 at 4:47 pm
Well, I'm not sure that it's so wise to ask for personal advice on this blog, but hey, what the heck. I guess most Atheists can sympathize with me on this.
I forwarded a link of this story to my moderately religious family members, thinking that it would be another chink in their defense of this crap. But I got back the following emails:
My email:
Dear Family,
Hate to go back to a sore topic for you, but here's another tragedy caused by religion:
This foxnews story provides the essence of why I think that the concept of prayer is such a bad one:
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
Love,
Jon
It seemed to have hit a nerve because I got 4 immediate responses (from folks who generally don't write to me that often except to forward an occasional good joke)
#1 response (step-mom):
No matter what you say.... we are all STILL PRAYING FOR YOU!
xoxo "Step-Mom"
#2 response (sister):
Obviously these people did not know anything about prayer, or they would have known that they should do the right thing and find all the help for the poor girl that they could!
Don't blame Jesus (not religion--Jesus was against alot of religious tradition himself!) for something some idiots did!
Love,
"Sister"
-------------
#3 response (from great Uncle/Aunt):
Jon-You may not want it but we will continue to pray for you. Love "Aunt and Uncle")
----------------
#4 response (from mother):
Jon Since you have never had much religious training, (my fault), you don't understand that most Christians don't agree with this either....and the persons you are sending this to also don't believe your lack of understanding about their beliefs. It is probably better to keep that to yourself as you will never influence any of these people to your point of view, and you just alienate them.
Love, Mom
-------------
I'm open to any suggestions of how to deal with relatives like this from anybody with a sense of understanding. Please no flamers.
Other Comments by AtheistJon
216. Comment #151437 by BW022 on March 28, 2008 at 5:36 pm
Talk about sad.Yet the aweful fact is that the parents are not evil. They do believe that prayer was going to heal their sick child. And if you belief that God can hear your prayers, he is all powerful, and he is all good, then you why would you call a doctor?
Religious people can not get it. I'm sure that most religious folks don't really buy that God listens to prayers -- nearly all would rush their child to the doctor. But, they can't understand why it is dangerous for them to pretend that it does -- teach prayer, go through the motions, include it in their holy books, celebrate praying, speak as if they do belief it, talk about miracles, etc. They just don't get that some poor idiot won't get that they are pretending and that they really don't trust prayer...
and little girls will keep dying.
Other Comments by BW022
217. Comment #151493 by MelM on March 28, 2008 at 8:55 pm
OThttp://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23850442/
Wait for end of world wraps up early
7 Russian cult members emerge from cave; more could be leaving
...the cult leader, the self-declared prophet Pyotr Kuznetsov, was brought from a local psychiatric hospital to help persuade the women to leave.
...
Kuznetsov has been charged with setting up a religious organization associated with violence.
Other Comments by MelM
218. Comment #151833 by lazlow on March 29, 2008 at 2:19 pm
This is a sad story for so many reasons. The parents thought they were doing good by praying for their daughter and when that didn't help they rounded up more people to help. I mean these were people that truly loved their daughter, but thanks to religious belief they were led down a path of superstitious belief that a God would save their child. For most people this is a hard pill to swallow and I would hope that for people of religious faith and conviction this would be an eye opener of what real damage religion really cause.It might seem innocent to yap about how great God is, that he created the earth and people and whatever and that you can pray for help when you need it, but when it takes this turn it's about time you put and end to it once and for all. This is why people should not respect religion or give it room to breathe and fester.
Other Comments by lazlow
219. Comment #151836 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 2:37 pm
The flipside to this of course (if you are a theist) is that God intended this girl to die horribly and prematurely.
That would be a most abhorrent thing to me, if i beleived.
Other Comments by newskin
220. Comment #151839 by Geoff on March 29, 2008 at 2:44 pm
Jon, You do indeed have my sympathy. If an article like this one doesn't have any effect, I suspect nothing you do or say will help. I think you'll just have to accept that neither "side" will persuade the other.Since you say that you don't hear from them very much, it seems to me that taking your mum's advice (in her last sentence) would be the best option.
Other Comments by Geoff
221. Comment #151850 by AtheistJon on March 29, 2008 at 2:59 pm
Thanks Geoff...
It is sad to live in a family where you can't bring up the topic of religion at all because they all take offense from your position rather than being able to discuss things objectively.
I guess that's why they say to never discuss politics or religion when visiting somebody's house. But then again, this is my own family... I feel ashamed of them.
Other Comments by AtheistJon
222. Comment #151856 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 3:09 pm
It is sad to live in a family where you can't bring up the topic of religion at all because they all take offense from your position rather than being able to discuss things objectively.RAmen to that!
My grandparents are the same. Ive seen them genuinely upset as they consider that their atheist children/grandchildren are going to hell. I was always favourite grandchild, and i dont think my chosen degree in molecular cell biology went down well at all!
Other Comments by newskin
223. Comment #151862 by Verylee on March 29, 2008 at 3:16 pm
Come on, Robertson, D'Souza, McGrath, Revcort or whoever else. Come and explain
Their silence is deafening. Maybe it's a good thing as they would most likely post something crass, evasive or offensive, or maybe they just don't care? Our blasphemy is more worthy of their contempt.
Other Comments by Verylee
224. Comment #151865 by flying goose on March 29, 2008 at 3:23 pm
"He pointed out some time ago, that NOT ONE Christian has seen fit so far to come on this thread to defend the parents of this unfortunate ex child."
How can one defend the indefensible?
Other Comments by flying goose
225. Comment #151869 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 3:27 pm
How can one defend the indefensible?
Can't be done, but you might at least expect them to show up and play with language as is typical...
Other Comments by newskin
226. Comment #151872 by Corylus on March 29, 2008 at 3:34 pm
Flying Goose "He pointed out some time ago, that NOT ONE Christian has seen fit so far to come on this thread to defend the parents of this unfortunate ex child."Absolutely correct. Logical inpossiblilty.
How can one defend the indefensible?
However, there is a huge difference between, comprehending an action (or lack of action) and condoning it.
Practically though, if you understand why people sometimes act in an unforgiveable fashion in certain types of situations, you can work towards stopping said situations reoccurring.
Just because you understand something does not mean that you have to defend it.
Understanding is what is required here, and that is all that I personally ask for.
Other Comments by Corylus
227. Comment #151878 by AtheistJon on March 29, 2008 at 3:51 pm
The defense I'm hearing, from my "moderate" religious family members as quoted above, is the same old argument you always hear from the religious, i.e. "those are the extremist wacky Christians"... "real Christians" don't do that...
(same kind of response that "moderate" Muslims gave to 9-11)...
Other Comments by AtheistJon
228. Comment #151894 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 4:17 pm
I am not sure why so many here seem to think that all Christians should somehow apologize for or excuse for such behaviour. The assumption is that somehow these crazy parents are doing what good Christians are supposed to doI don't quite see the logic here.
An intelligent Christian would simply tell you that God would have answered their prayers through the doctor but they have to get off their arses and do their part of the job. No apology, no excuse, no evasive mental gymnastics, There is no need for all that, the answer is too easy.
It reminds me of a joke a Jewish friend told me. He said this poor Jew was praying to God everyday begging for God to send him a fortune, But his prayers were not answered and he died poor. When he met God in heaven he demanded, "God, I prayed to you days and nights, why did you ignore my prayers?" God answered, "I didn't, but you've got to spend the two dollars to buy the bloody lottery ticket yourself!"
I don't think this is a "gotcha" moment for the moderate Christians and I find it kind of crass to try to exploit this tragedy as ammunition to score cheap debating points with theists.
Other Comments by Bonzai
229. Comment #151897 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 4:24 pm
Ta da!
I am not sure why so many here seem to think that all Christians should somehow apologize for or excuse for such behaviour. The assumption is that somehow these crazy parents are doing what good Christians are supposed to do
Can you not see how ridiculous a notion it is that god would set up this girls illness as some kind of test for her parents? A particularly perverse test if the solution is not to pray as the bible says but to seek help from modern medicine!
There are no cheap points being scored here, this girl died because her parents believed in god. Misguided or otherwise
Other Comments by newskin
230. Comment #151899 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 4:26 pm
Comment #151894 by Bonzai I am not sure why so many here seem to think that all Christians should somehow apologize for or excuse for such behaviour. The assumption is that somehow these crazy parents are doing what good Christians are supposed to do
Praying is good. Trusting God is good. Listening to preachers is good. God moves in mysterious ways. He answers your prayers. Listen hard enough and you can hear his voice. But, he doesn't answer all the time. You may need to have more faith, and repent your sins. Suffering is God's way of cleansing.
Religion is a gateway drug. It allows people to get high on stronger forms of gullibility.
I don't think this is a "gotcha" moment for the moderate Christian
Part of being a "moderate" (didn't we discuss problems with that word?) Christian is that there is probably never going to be a "gotcha" moment.
"That's not MY Christianity"....
Other Comments by Steve Zara
231. Comment #151903 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 4:30 pm
There are no cheap points being scored here, this girl died because her parents believed in god.
No, believing in God doesn't mean they have to deny her medication. Many people believe in God and they do go to the doctors when they or their families get sick,
The little girl died because these people are idiots,
Other Comments by Bonzai
232. Comment #151905 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 4:34 pm
Praying is good. Trusting God is good. Listening to preachers is good. God moves in mysterious ways. He answers your prayers. Listen hard enough and you can hear his voice. But, he doesn't answer all the time. You may need to have more faith, and repent your sins. Suffering is God's way of cleansing.
Maybe that is your understanding, along with some fundamentalists such as the unfortunate girl's parents. I have never heard from any Christian I know that "God answers prayers' means you should just sit on your arse and wait for blessings to fall from heaven.
It seems that you have again just quoted one or two sentences from my post and ignoring the rest.
Other Comments by Bonzai
233. Comment #151906 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 4:38 pm
Comment #151903 by Bonzai No, believing in God doesn't mean they have to deny her medication. Many people believe in God and they do go to the doctors when they or their families get sick,
I really don't know how to put the following, but I mean it amicably: I repeatedly find myself debating with you and you provide responses where because religion is not shown to be the only cause of something in every case, you seem to claim that it can't be relevant or even significant.
Things are rarely simple, and can have many causes. This tragedy was the result of many causes - the illness, the idiocy of the parents, their religious beliefs. Just because the parents were idots does not in any way justify dismissing the religious factor. As someone who has studied statistics, you should realise that the influence of each factor has to be taken into account. You have provided no reason to take the religious factor out of the equation, especially as it was so clearly described in the article.
The little girl died because these people are idiots,
Religion enabled their idiotic behaviour. There is a chance that without their religious certainties, they would have scraped together what little brain activity they could manage and called a doctor.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
234. Comment #151910 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 4:43 pm
Maybe that is your understanding, along with some fundamentalists such as the unfortunate girl's parents.
Its easy then. All we need to do is sort out the moderate from the fundamentalists. I guess some kind of regular question and answer session, or exam? And if someone is getting too "fundamentalist", what then?
Other Comments by Steve Zara
235. Comment #151911 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 4:43 pm
No, believing in God doesn't mean they have to deny her medication
Here you and i agree, but they clearly thought it did. However even an idiot knows what a hospital is and what it is for; it seems the only reason they did not take her to one is because they truly believed prayer alone would work. At this point we are in agreement again, that is truly an idiotic notion!
Whether or not god provided the doctor to cure the disease he presumably created is a mute point. They clearly hadn't got his message, so voracious was their praying and a girl died.
Way to dodge the wider question by the way.
And im afraid your point was pre-empted, with thanks to Steve Z:
"That's not MY Christianity"....
Other Comments by newskin
236. Comment #151912 by AtheistJon on March 29, 2008 at 4:44 pm
Well explained, Steve.
By the way, any advice to me for dealing with my "moderate" religious family?
Just curious, how do you deal with religious folks in your family?
Other Comments by AtheistJon
237. Comment #151913 by Hobbit on March 29, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Comment #151862 by Verylee:
Come on, Robertson, D'Souza, McGrath, Revcort or whoever else. Come and explain
Their silence is deafening. Maybe it's a good thing as they would most likely post something crass, evasive or offensive, or maybe they just don't care? Our blasphemy is more worthy of their contempt.
I made a direct challenge to fides on another thread to come and comment on this issue. I issued the challenge 3 times and was ignored each time.
As you say, their silence is deafening. I told fides that his lack of response spoke volumes.
fides (or any other faith head), if you are reading this, I will present the challenge / request for a 4th time. Please give us your thoughts / rationalisation of the parent's action here!
I am still looking forward to how you justify this lunacy!
Other Comments by Hobbit
238. Comment #151914 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 4:46 pm
Comment #151912 by AtheistJonJust curious, how do you deal with religious folks in your family?
Religion seems to have just faded away over the decades... some of them believed some quite "fundamentalist" things, but just not very strongly.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
239. Comment #151920 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 4:54 pm
This tragedy was the result of many causes - the illness, the idiocy of the parents, their religious beliefs. Just because the parents were idots does not in any way justify dismissing the religious factor.
If there are many factors why say she died because her parents believed in God?
newskin is at least honest in stating his assumption, but you seem to shift all over the places,
When being called out for simplicity by pinning everything on the general belief in God, you would say, no, no. It is complex,you never said religion is the only factor. but then you would turn around and argue exactly as if you think religion is the only factor,
Are you using techniques you attribute to religious moderates in your own debates?
Religion enabled their idiotic behaviour
I don't agree with such a blanket statement.
As I argued, there is no "Christian" reason that prevents them from seeing a doctors.So if they are "just" Christians she might very well still be alive. They have their own weird interpretations of prayers that is clearly not shared by most Christians,
Now Jehovah Witnesses do have a specific dogma against transfusion, if the girl were a JW and she died because her parents denied her a transfusion than you can say religion was an enable factor,
Other Comments by Bonzai
240. Comment #151922 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 4:57 pm
BonzaiWhen being called out for simplicity by pinning everything on the general belief in God
Sorry, but I had not noticed any statement where I pinned everything on the general belief in God.
I'll leave others to judge whether or not I did that.
Are you using techniques you attribute to religious moderates in your own debates?
If I am, I am afraid they are too transparent even for me to see.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
241. Comment #151925 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:02 pm
That's not MY Christianity
Your point being?
Well maybe indeed that is not,
I certainly wouldn't think for a moment that this kind of idiocy is flying goose's Christianity, for example, and likely not Robertson's or McGrath's either,
A soundbite is just that, it is not an argument,
EDIT When this soundbites is invoked, it is usually an expression of frustration because of the failure to set up strawman arguments.
Other Comments by Bonzai
242. Comment #151926 by Hobbit on March 29, 2008 at 5:03 pm
Bonzai,
I know that you like to argue for the sake of arguing (don't argue with that statement) :o).
But the reason people here are attacking all Christians here (well me at least, I shouldn't speak for others) is because the so called "moderates" enable the "fundies" to act in this way.
The "moderates" never come out and say that these people are wrong and will go to hell. They usually just say things like "that's not my god" or as we saw above "Obviously these people did not know anything about prayer" (I know that I didn't put the whole sentence in that quote. It was more for demonstration purposes).
If only the less religious would finally come out and say "actually, these people are praying to an imaginary god that someone made up and were only in it for the tea and biscuits after church" (wishing thinking on my part) then the fundies look even more crackpot and the law would have removed their children from them a long time ago.
I am about to go out for a lovely lunch, so unfortunately, I will be unable to respond to your response until later.
Other Comments by Hobbit
243. Comment #151931 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 5:13 pm
Bonsai:
As I argued, there is no "Christian" reason that prevents them from seeing a doctors
Oh dear oh dear, you are a classic slippery christian customer!
You did not argue, you merely asserted that with some weak anecdote. You have adressed no points from any of the contributers and have meerly seemed to suggest that modern christians accept that prayer is a load of boloney and seek help from doctors.
Other Comments by newskin
244. Comment #151932 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 5:15 pm
Comment #151925 by Bonzai A soundbite is just that, it is not an argument,
OK, I'll explain more what I feel.
To me, "that's not MY Christianity..." indicates a common attitude that is held not just towards Christianity or religion, but many behaviours that are at least potentially hazardous.
Smoking is bad for the health, but people justify it as "that's not MY smoking - my uncle Fred smoked until he was 100".
Speeding can be dangerous, but "that's not MY driving - I can drive safely whatever the speed".
Religion can lead to gullibility, but "that's not MY Christianity - I can believe just the safe bits, as I am a moderate"
It is a common defence mechanism. People assume that they are "above average", that the rules of man and nature don't apply to them.
In doing so, they blame other people rather than the problem itself.
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245. Comment #151933 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:16 pm
Richard M.So many different types of Christianity. But the common factor is Christianity... and magic prayers.
When you claim "there is no "Christian" reason that prevents them from seeing a doctors", I do hope you are not setting yourself up as the ultimate decider of Christian doctrine. That would be a little ironic in the context, don't you think?
Well many Christians do believe in the magic prayers, but other than a few isolated cases like this I have never heard that the magic will just fall from the sky and you don't need to do anything for it. If you pray and hope to get rich, at least you should buy the lottery ticket instead of sitting to wait for a bag of money to fall from the sky.
You may know otherwise, but I don't know of any Christian school that says that believing in prayer means you have to wait for the money bag to drop from the sky (after a hurricane perhaps?)
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246. Comment #151938 by mmurray on March 29, 2008 at 5:21 pm
I was making a similar comment about moderates above and how they would dismiss these fundamentalists as not helping god help them. I had this bit of the bible pointed out to me:John 14: 12-14. Jesus says:
"14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
I wonder which particular theological contortion is used to conclude that this doesn't mean what it says?
Michael
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247. Comment #151940 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:24 pm
newskinYou did not argue, you merely asserted that with some weak anecdote.
You claim there is a Christian reason to not see doctor, give me one. The onus is on you,
You have adressed no points from any of the contributers and have meerly seemed to suggest that modern christians accept that prayer is a load of boloney and seek help from doctors.
The contributors here don't make much a point except trying to use this tragedy to implicate all Christians. It is not a valid point and I have addressed it by showing how an intelligent Christian would have refuted it easily,
You are saying that the modern Christians are somehow perverting the religion while these idiots who expect magic healing to fall from the sky are not, Where is your evidence?
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248. Comment #151944 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 5:34 pm
Bonzai, Im afraid i cannot help but raise a smile whenever the religious get so up tight about evidence. It seems you are happy to base your whole philosophy, and life, on something that you take on faith but require detailed evidence for anything else!
I am reminded of Michael Behe during the Kansas trial when the judge pointed out that if a missing link was found, he would simply require two more to fill the new gaps!
As you asked:
You claim there is a Christian reason to not see doctor, give me one. The onus is on you
The doctrine of prayer. As already stated but I am beggining to understand you are have selective vision.
The contributors here don't make much a point
The fact that you said that leads me to beleive you have read different posts to me. Are there now different versions of RD.net as there are The God Delusion?
Finally, as again you have not grasped it, I am saying that modern christians go to the doctor (as you have), so why bother with prayer? I am also saying that god made them ill in the first place.
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249. Comment #151945 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:43 pm
newskinBonzai, Im afraid i cannot help but raise a smile whenever the religious get so up tight about evidence. It seems you are happy to base your whole philosophy, and life, on something that you take on faith but require detailed evidence for anything else!
You are so wrong about this. I am an atheist, never been religious.
However, I do abhor simple minded thinking, wherever it comes from.
I have no problem criticizing religion and I have done so often, but I don't like to caricature all religious people with one broad brush and I happen to think that there are intelligent believers with whom we can have a conversation instead of using bully tactics to "challenge" them, most notably by putting words in their mouths and attributing to them idiotic beliefs that they don't hold.
"Not my religion" often is not an excuse, but a valid response to strawman arguments,
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250. Comment #151948 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:53 pm
newskinThe doctrine of prayer. As already stated but I am beggining to understand you are have selective vision.
Again, the passage cited by mmurry doesn't say blessings would just happen. You may still have to buy the lottery ticket instead of waiting for money to fall from the sky even if the prayer is answered. I don't see how this is a "selective" version
Popes do see doctors when they are sick and that is not just in modern times.
Finally, as again you have not grasped it, I am saying that modern christians go to the doctor (as you have), so why bother with prayer? I am also saying that god made them ill in the first place.
That is an entirely different argument, I would agree with you on this.
But the original accusation you made was the little girl died "because the parents believe in God", that would imply the belief in God and prayers prevented them from seeking medical help. Where is the evidence of that?
To illustrate the point, I used the example of Jehova Witnesses, for whom there is a doctrine against transfusions so it would be valid to say the parents' belief caused the daugther's death if she needed a transfusion but was denied,
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Over 1.5 million copies sold
Books by Richard Dawkins
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201. Comment #151153 by epeeist on March 28, 2008 at 8:03 am
Whoever would have thought it, a third rate actor waffles on about IDiocy and the whole of the world's evolutionary biologists will be out of a job.
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