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Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
by Fox News
Thanks to Kubenzi for the link.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
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Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 | PermalinkComments 251 - 300 of 372 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers252. Comment #151945 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:43 pm
newskinBonzai, Im afraid i cannot help but raise a smile whenever the religious get so up tight about evidence. It seems you are happy to base your whole philosophy, and life, on something that you take on faith but require detailed evidence for anything else!
You are so wrong about this. I am an atheist, never been religious.
However, I do abhor simple minded thinking, wherever it comes from.
I have no problem criticizing religion and I have done so often, but I don't like to caricature all religious people with one broad brush and I happen to think that there are intelligent believers with whom we can have a conversation instead of using bully tactics to "challenge" them, most notably by putting words in their mouths and attributing to them idiotic beliefs that they don't hold.
"Not my religion" often is not an excuse, but a valid response to strawman arguments,
Other Comments by Bonzai
253. Comment #151948 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 5:53 pm
newskinThe doctrine of prayer. As already stated but I am beggining to understand you are have selective vision.
Again, the passage cited by mmurry doesn't say blessings would just happen. You may still have to buy the lottery ticket instead of waiting for money to fall from the sky even if the prayer is answered. I don't see how this is a "selective" version
Popes do see doctors when they are sick and that is not just in modern times.
Finally, as again you have not grasped it, I am saying that modern christians go to the doctor (as you have), so why bother with prayer? I am also saying that god made them ill in the first place.
That is an entirely different argument, I would agree with you on this.
But the original accusation you made was the little girl died "because the parents believe in God", that would imply the belief in God and prayers prevented them from seeking medical help. Where is the evidence of that?
To illustrate the point, I used the example of Jehova Witnesses, for whom there is a doctrine against transfusions so it would be valid to say the parents' belief caused the daugther's death if she needed a transfusion but was denied,
Other Comments by Bonzai
254. Comment #151950 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 5:59 pm
Bonzai-But the original accusation you made was the little girl died "because the parents believe in God", that would imply the belief in God and prayers prevented them from seeking medical help. Where is the evidence of that?
Someone is harmed in a car crash. They were driving too fast. They weren't wearing a seat belt. Were they harmed because they were driving too fast? Were they harmed because they weren't wearing a seat belt? Both reasons are true. Without either factor, there may have been no harm.
The girl, it seemed, died because the parents were idiots AND because they believed in God.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
255. Comment #151951 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 6:02 pm
I don't think that is in anyway simple minded to suggest that this girls parents faith was culpable for her death. I also think my point on evidence stands even if you have come out of the closet.
You may want to review what people have been posting, as no-one is suggesting that all christians would act this way. Enough would. The point i feel that was being made was that even one though,is too many.
You should make your point of view clearer in future so i dont waste my keystrokes and the real issue (ie your problem with the logic) could have been addressed. You're not the only one who is a stickler for it...
Other Comments by newskin
256. Comment #151952 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 6:18 pm
Bonzai:
But the original accusation you made was the little girl died "because the parents believe in God",
It may not be clear from the article (and those without biological/mecial backgrounds could be excused from knowing) but ketoacidosis is caused by a build up of things called ketone bodies which are made when your body starts to consume its own protein to generate sugar for the brain. This doesn't happen overnight and the little girl would have been in an obvious state of distress for some time.
Her parents knew she was ill, as they were praying for her recovery. You may have skipped what the parents said in the article:
apparently they didn't have enough faith
Now if they didn't beleive in god i feel pretty safe in saying that they would have dispensed with the prayer and consulted a doctor immediately, what else would they do? As i said, even an idiot knows what a hospital is. It's a real stretch to assert that a non-religious person would have acted in the same way, more so than to say that they wouldn't and so Ockham's razor swings...
Other Comments by newskin
257. Comment #151954 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 6:29 pm
newskinHer parents knew she was ill, as they were praying for her recovery. You may have skipped what the parents said in the article:
I know that, but that is their particular take on "faith"and prayers. When posters challenge other Christians to comment, the assumption is that somehow this is integral to any belief in God, or at least Christianity. That is plainly not true. So, it was not the belief in God, or even the belief in Christianity, that killed the girl, it was the parents' peculiar way of believing.
. It's a real stretch to assert that a non-religious person would have acted in the same way,
Well the South African President believes that HIV doesn't cause AIDS.Their health department insists that a combination of herbs, organic food, chicken soup and garlic is a more effective treatment for AIDs than modern medicine. They are not motivated by religion to my best knowledge, pesudoscience is the culprit.
Merely believing in some God is not the most irrational thing humans can do. In some cases it may be drastic, in others it is pretty tame on the scale of irrationality, it depends on the specific contents of the beliefs,
Other Comments by Bonzai
258. Comment #151958 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 6:46 pm
Comment #151954 by Bonzai I know that, but that is their particular take on "faith"and prayers.
The implications of this statement are pretty weird.
Do we try and instruct people about how prayers should work - about when they are effective? How about faith? Do we attempt to indicate what degree of faith is safe? Do we provide bibles with stickers on, saying "warning - can be harmful if used to excess"?
Do we give people training in the right way to view the supernatural, or do we limit access belief in the supernatural to those with sufficient knowledge? Do we have a "driving test" for faith?
Other Comments by Steve Zara
259. Comment #151959 by Bonzai on March 29, 2008 at 6:50 pm
The "implication" wouldn't be weird if you quote the whole paragraph instead of just a snippet out of context so you can't see what is the point being made. It doesn't "imply" anything of the sort you think it does,Other Comments by Bonzai
260. Comment #151961 by Steve Zara on March 29, 2008 at 6:55 pm
Comment #151959 by BonzaiThe "implication" wouldn't be weird if you quote the whole paragraph instead of just a snippet out of context so you can't see what is the point being made. It doesn't "imply" anything of the sort you think it does,
I was interested in your responses to the questions I put. If you claim that faith and prayer are safe for those who use them appropriately, then it is reasonable to ask you how we can determine they are being used appropriately.
If these people's particular way of believing was the issue, then I would like to know how we define the right way of believing.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
261. Comment #151970 by mmurray on March 29, 2008 at 7:28 pm
It's a real stretch to assert that a non-religious person would have acted in the same way,
What about someone who believes in homeopathy ? Or someone who believes that Big Pharma is all a conspiracy and taking any preventative medicine is dangerous to your health. Search for Big Pharma on even this forum and you will find some opinions espoused that are IMHO not entirely rational.
Of course it is a stretch to get from that to letting your daughter die in pain and anguish but I don't think it is as big as you seem to be suggesting. There is a lot of irrationality in the world sadly. Try
http://www.thesecret.tv/
On a slightly different topic I think we have to accept there are religious people who are not raging fundamentalists. The catholicism I was raised in, and rejected early in my teen years, would not have rejected medical intervention but it would have definitely prayed for help and (slightly off-topic) it would have laughed at the idea of creationism. That is not to say it hasn't done enormous damage to human kind that I am sure I don't need to elaborate on here.
Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
262. Comment #151986 by Hobbit on March 29, 2008 at 9:41 pm
Below is a response (finally) from one of the faith heads when pressed on this issue.
Comment #151966 by fides_et_ratio
If my child is sick, I take her to the doctor. I think everyone should do that. All the Catholics I know would do the same. In fact we believe in the effectiveness of medicine so much that we establish hospitals and hospices etc. 'faith head', keep thinking freely eh.
I have asked the following questions in response.
So these people are not true Christians because they follow the wrong dogma?
Does this mean that you (and all the Catholics you know) don't believe in the power of prayer and just go through the motions of make believe to appease the other church goers?
Please come over to the other thread and make your views clear as to why these people are wrong and why.
They follow the same book and god that you do!
Other Comments by Hobbit
263. Comment #151993 by mmurray on March 29, 2008 at 10:49 pm
Again, the passage cited by mmurry doesn't say blessings would just happen.
Hi Bonzai
Actually it sounds pretty close to that to me:
"14 You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it."
`I will do it' not `I will do it if ...' or `I will do it by some complicated route requiring action on your part' or `I will put together a solution framework that will require your implementation'. It just says you ask and I'll do it. Unless there is some other let out clause elsewhere in the bible I would hate to be a lawyer defending Jesus in court from a charge of false advertising for his failure to save the poor girl in question.
Of course ultimately nobody including these particular mad parents believe this literally as otherwise why do they eat ? Why not just get down on your knees and say `Jesus fill my body with nourishment'.
Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
264. Comment #152006 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 2:30 am
267. Comment #151986 by Hobbit on March 29, 2008 at 9:41 pmIf you genuinely want a discussion, 'faith head' doesn't indicate a desire to engage in constructive dialogue.
Steve Zara
Religion can lead to gullibility, but "that's not MY Christianity - I can believe just the safe bits, as I am a moderate"
You're currently talking on another thread about the positivity of free thought. Is this something you disagree with in this instance? Incidentally , I've never heard any religious person say this. Of course that's because, despite what some on here BELIEVE, not taking your daughter to the doctor amongst other things, isn't Christianity-lite.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
265. Comment #152007 by Quetzalcoatl on March 30, 2008 at 2:33 am
Fides-
If you genuinely want a discussion, 'faith head' doesn't indicate a desire to engage in constructive dialogue
Why not respond to all the others then, if Hobbit's choice of words offends you?
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
266. Comment #152008 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 2:41 am
270. Comment #152007 by Quetzalcoatl on March 30, 2008 at 2:33 amThe small, big-footed one invited me on here, hence my response. Which point in particular would you like me to address?
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
267. Comment #152009 by Quetzalcoatl on March 30, 2008 at 2:43 am
Well firstly-
what's your opinion on the parent's actions? Do you think they were wrong, if so- why? What does this story say about the efficacy of prayer?
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
268. Comment #152012 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 2:50 am
Steve,Someone is harmed in a car crash. They were driving too fast. They weren't wearing a seat belt. Were they harmed because they were driving too fast? Were they harmed because they weren't wearing a seat belt? Both reasons are true. Without either factor, there may have been no harm.
No, this is not the right analogy, Your argument would be like saying they get hurt because they drive.
I was interested in your responses to the questions I put. If you claim that faith and prayer are safe for those who use them appropriately, then it is reasonable to ask you how we can determine they are being used appropriately.
Faith and prayers don't preclude common sense, this is the way practiced by many believers.
There seems to be an unspoken,--sometimes even spoken,--assumption that religious people either inhabit a different universe where they are completely immune from non religious considerations, or that they are required by their religion to so segregate themselves. This is as valid as the mad scientist stereotype.
Other Comments by Bonzai
269. Comment #152014 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 2:55 am
I think they were wrong and should've taken their daughter to the doctor, why, because when my daughter's sick, I take her to the doctor.Secondly, the point of prayer is not to change the mind of God, but to change the life of the one who prays. So when I ask for God's help, it's not part of a deal-making process, it's to accept the reality that I'm not the highest power in my life. Incidentally, it works very well for me.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
270. Comment #152015 by Quetzalcoatl on March 30, 2008 at 2:58 am
Fides-
but weren't the parents simply doing what the Bible says would work, by praying for their child to be healed? Faith the size of a mustard seed, moving mountains and all that? If they were wrong, why is your interpretation of the purpose of prayer more valid than their's?
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
271. Comment #152016 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 2:59 am
Bonzai-
Faith and prayers don't preclude common sense, this is the way practiced by many believers.
You aren't answering the question. How do we know for a particular believer whether or faith and prayers aren't precluding common sense? How do we know they are being used "safely"?
Other Comments by Steve Zara
272. Comment #152017 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 3:00 am
275. Comment #152014 by fides_et_ratio -
You sad, pathetic little deluded ignorant individual.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
273. Comment #152018 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 3:02 am
Richard Morgan,I suspect the reason I haven't heard religious people say this is because they don't believe in 'just the safe bits' they take their faith in its totality. Of course, that's minus the dangerous bits that people who don't share their beliefs try to ascribe to them.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
274. Comment #152019 by Quetzalcoatl on March 30, 2008 at 3:04 am
Well, I have to depart now. I'll respond to Fides' replies this evening. Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
275. Comment #152020 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:05 am
Comment #152014 by fides_et_ratioSecondly, the point of prayer is not to change the mind of God, but to change the life of the one who prays. So when I ask for God's help, it's not part of a deal-making process, it's to accept the reality that I'm not the highest power in my life. Incidentally, it works very well for me.
That is just your version of the belief that prayer works. Others version of the belief is that God changes the one you pray for. If this were not the case, people would not pray for others who are sick, or visit places like Lourdes.
Your gullibilty may be safe (for now), others cal lead to tragedies. Gullibility in general can be dangerous. Having a established international framework that encourage gullibility (such as many Christian churches) is (I am sorry to have to use such words) bloody stupid. It is a sort of mental hard-drug peddling.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
276. Comment #152021 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 3:05 am
276. Comment #152015 by Quetzalcoatl on March 30, 2008 at 2:58 amTell me where the bible tells me not to take my sick daughter to the doctor.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
277. Comment #152022 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 3:11 am
or visit places like Lourdes
I've been to Lourdes several times. It's a good case in point for what I said about prayer and the benefits of prayer. I've been part of pilgrimages consisting of thousands of people from Britain. Disabled children are taken for a weeks holiday to Lourdes provided free of charge and staffed almost completely by volunteers (including many doctors), whose lives are rooted in prayer. Generally a good week is had by all. Of course, things like that don't tend to get reported in the press, unlike the story above.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
278. Comment #152023 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 3:13 am
How do we know for a particular believer whether or faith and prayers aren't precluding common sense? How do we know they are being used "safely"?
What are you, the thought police? How do we know you won't go out and rape people because you have sexual fantasies?
How do we know that a committed environmentalist wouldn't turn into an eco-terrorist? How do we know "science" is safe? It is used in the creation of weapons of mass destruction, including so many nuclear bombs that would blow us up ten times over.
I think this is a silly question.
Other Comments by Bonzai
279. Comment #152025 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:21 am
Comment #152021 by fides_et_ratio Tell me where the bible tells me not to take my sick daughter to the doctor.
The bible says that if you concentrate hard the right way, magic happens. That is part of its instruction guide to the universe. The instruction guide does not say how to concentrate, the right thoughts to think, or what this can achieve (well, it does - it says "whatever you ask", but many ignore that).
Because there is no instruction guide, many apparently seem to be mistaken about the power of prayer.
So, I suggest the following. Why not provide such an instruction guide so people can be sure. How many "hair Marys" to, say, heal a toothache? If you think it can't do anything, let's say so. Why not prepare this instruction guide, and come back to us when you have ensured that it is given to all Christians, and you have made sure they all understand it (perhaps some kind of exam).
Other Comments by Steve Zara
280. Comment #152026 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:25 am
Comment #152023 What are you, the thought police? How do we know you won't go out and rape people because you have sexual fantasies?
You were the one who said that some believers were misusing prayer and faith.
I said nothing about stopping people doing that, I just think it would be helpful to know when it was happening.
As you are making the distinction between proper and improper use (I'm not - I think it is all silly), then presumably you have some way to make the distiction. I am asking what it is.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
281. Comment #152027 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 3:25 am
281. Comment #152020 by Steve Zara -Having a established international framework that encourage gullibility (such as many Christian churches) is (I am sorry to have to use such words) bloody stupid.Steve. Don't apologise for talking straight.
283. Comment #152022 by fides_et_ratio -
Of course a deluded individual will feel better if others indulge their fantasies whilst looking after their physical needs. No gods required. If I were ill and someone came up and started to pray for me, it would only result in two people suffering. (Feel free to use your imagination at this point) This may, of course, cheer me up for a minute or two.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
282. Comment #152028 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:30 am
Comment #152027 by irate_atheistThis is one of those rare occasions when I am getting more upset with time. People die because others believe in magic. Supposedly "moderate" believers (whatever that word means) and some "belief in belief" non-believers are trying to hand-wave this away. I don't think that is just misguided, I think it is dangerous. This showing the worrying protected status of religion, even in the minds of some non-believers.
If Big Pharma produced a drug that caused several deaths, there is a scandal, and the drug is recalled.
When Big Religion produced a belief that is implicated in deaths, there is no scandal, because people are apparently "taking the belief wrong". Well, I can't see any instructions on the side of the packet, and it is up to those who claim that there is a safe dose to tell us what it is and how they know.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
283. Comment #152029 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 3:31 am
285. Comment #152025 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:21 amAt the risk of sounding obtuse or offering a poor imitation of Jeremy Paxman. Where in the bible does it tell me not to take my daughter to the doctor. Something that would contradict Jesus' statement that, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor-sick people do.'
So, I suggest the following. Why not provide such an instruction guide so people can be sure. How many "hair Marys" to, say, heal a toothache?
In this case I go to the dentist. Though in fairness, when I'm in the chair I recite the rosary, I find that it focuses my mind on something other that the painful experience.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
284. Comment #152030 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:36 am
Comment #152029 by fides_et_ratioIn this case I go to the dentist.
Why? Seriously.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
285. Comment #152031 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 3:36 am
Comment #152006 by fides_et_ratio
If you genuinely want a discussion, 'faith head' doesn't indicate a desire to engage in constructive dialogue.
fides, I'm glad you came over. What would you prefer to 'faith head'? I did invite you over for constructive dialogue after all.
Firstly, can you please address my previous questions?
So these people are not true Christians because they follow the wrong dogma?
Does this mean that you (and all the Catholics you know) don't believe in the power of prayer and just go through the motions of make believe to appease the other church goers?
Please come over to the other thread and make your views clear as to why these people are wrong and why.
They follow the same book and god that you do!
Then we will move onto the following:
I've been to Lourdes several times. It's a good case in point for what I said about prayer and the benefits of prayer. I've been part of pilgrimages consisting of thousands of people from Britain. Disabled children are taken for a weeks holiday to Lourdes provided free of charge and staffed almost completely by volunteers (including many doctors), whose lives are rooted in prayer. Generally a good week is had by all. Of course, things like that don't tend to get reported in the press, unlike the story above.
So how many of the children were NOT disabled when you got back from Lourdes? What prayers did you make whilst there? Did you ask for the children to be healed? If not why not? Why else would you go there? If yes, and none of them were healed, what's the point?
Other Comments by Hobbit
286. Comment #152033 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 3:38 am
As you are making the distinction between proper and improper use (I'm not - I think it is all silly), then presumably you have some way to make the distiction. I am asking what it is.
So what is the "proper use" of sexual fantasies? We all have them but some do go out and rape. Do we need an algorithm to determine what is a proper fantasy ? The answer is obvious to most people with common sense except for idiots who wouldn't pass the Turing test. The answer is just as obvious to your rhetorical question.
This is an appropriate analogy as some here are behaving like Puritans for "reason".
Other Comments by Bonzai
287. Comment #152034 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 3:38 am
288. Comment #152028 by Steve Zara -
Yes indeed to all you say.
When I joined RDnet I pondered what to have as my handle. I decided on a name that best reflected my view on the whole subject. You know somewhat of my personal history - I suspect it would be difficult for me to be more 'upset' with religion. It is also why I feel no shame in being rude, obnoxious and offensive to quite a few of the believers who post on this site. They have a mentality that should have disappeared centuries ago.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
288. Comment #152035 by Styrer- on March 30, 2008 at 3:40 am
288. Comment #152028 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:30 am
This is one of those rare occasions when I am getting more upset with time. People die because others believe in magic. Supposedly "moderate" believers (whatever that word means) and some "belief in belief" non-believers are trying to hand-wave this away. I don't think that is just misguided, I think it is dangerous. This showing the worrying protected status of religion, even in the minds of some non-believers.
Spot on. I could not agree more.
Well said.
Best,
Styrer
Other Comments by Styrer-
289. Comment #152036 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 3:41 am
290. Comment #152030 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:36Probably for the same reason as you.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
290. Comment #152038 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:43 am
Comment #152036 by fides_et_ratio Probably for the same reason as you.
You have the same faith as people who believe that prayer can heal. Why don't you believe that?
Other Comments by Steve Zara
291. Comment #152039 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 3:44 am
289. Comment #152029 by fides_et_ratio -Though in fairness, when I'm in the chair I recite the rosary, I find that it focuses my mind on something other that the painful experience.So, has your dentist not heard of modern anaesthetics? You need to get new dentist.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
292. Comment #152041 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 3:49 am
Comment #152025 by Steve Zara
If Big Pharma produced a drug that caused several deaths, there is a scandal, and the drug is recalled.
When Big Religion produced a belief that is implicated in deaths, there is no scandal, because people are apparently "taking the belief wrong". Well, I can't see any instructions on the side of the packet, and it is up to those who claim that there is a safe dose to tell us what it is and how they know.
Really well put! Couldn't agree more>
Other Comments by Hobbit
293. Comment #152043 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:49 am
So what is the "proper use" of sexual fantasies?
As you are the one making the distinction, perhaps you could tell us, along with the "proper" use of faith and prayer?
Sexual fantasies involve the temporary suspension of disbelief, and people mostly realise when they are fantasies. When they don't, we worry. If someone wandered around all day in leather gear claiming they were Batman, we would think them slightly nuts (unless they were Christian Bale, in which case some of us would drool).
Religion is different. It encourages permanent delusion - it is not switched on and off within relatively safe bounds, and if someone wanders around all day in a dress and claims they hear God we call them Bishop, and invite them on government committees.
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294. Comment #152044 by Geoff on March 30, 2008 at 3:50 am
274. Comment #152012 by Bonzai There seems to be an unspoken,--sometimes even spoken,--assumption that religious people either inhabit a different universe where they are completely immune from non religious considerations, or that they are required by their religion to so segregate themselves.
Not all, of course, but many do. Not necessarily physically segregated (although that too happens), but very often intellectually. That's a big reason for their "home-schooling" in many regions.
I camr across this article a while ago, which is apposite here:
http://www.skepticreport.com/creationism/ghetto.htm
279. Comment #152018 by fides_et_ratio
I suspect the reason I haven't heard religious people say this is because they don't believe in 'just the safe bits' they take their faith in its totality. Of course, that's minus the dangerous bits that people who don't share their beliefs try to ascribe to them.
But they all interpret it differently, or take different bits. It's been accurately said that there are as many types of christianity as there are christians.
The fact remains that there are very many that do believe the "dangerous bits" (your words!), and who feel that your type of faith is the wrong one, just as you do with theirs.
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295. Comment #152045 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 3:51 am
299. Comment #152041 by Hobbit -
The safe dose is the same size as no dose at all...just say
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296. Comment #152047 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 3:52 am
So these people are not true Christians because they follow the wrong dogma?
I haven't said that. I don't agree with them, I think they're wrong, I think they would benefit from assessing the teachings of Christianity more closely, but if they believe that Jesus is the Son of God, then they're Christians.
Does this mean that you (and all the Catholics you know) don't believe in the power of prayer and just go through the motions of make believe to appease the other church goers?
I refer to the answer I gave in my earlier posts.
So how many of the children were NOT disabled when you got back from Lourdes? What prayers did you make whilst there? Did you ask for the children to be healed? If not why not? Why else would you go there? If yes, and none of them were healed, what's the point?the aim wasn't to bring them back without their disablility, it was to give them a nice time. It succeeds year upon year. It succeeds because people are generous with their time and money. Prayer seems to be the common denominator between the volunteers and fundraisers involved.
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297. Comment #152049 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 3:55 am
irate,So, has your dentist not heard of modern anaesthetics? You need to get new dentist.
In order to apply local anesthetics they need to stick a needle in your gum first, that is scary and painful. Secondly, you are conscious when the dentist does his thing because the anesthetic is local. You may not feel much pain but you can hear all the drilling and pulling. I have had a dentist who felt inclined to do a play by play update when my tooth was being pulled. "Oh.. oh.. it is coming off, oh shit, get to pull harder,,,"
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298. Comment #152050 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 3:56 am
297. Comment #152038 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 3:43 amYou're not listening Steve. See
289. Comment #152029 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 3:31 am
Specifically
Where in the bible does it tell me not to take my daughter to the doctor. Something that would contradict Jesus' statement that, 'Healthy people don't need a doctor-sick people do.'
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299. Comment #152051 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 3:58 am
303. Comment #152047 by fides_et_ratio -Prayer seems to be the common denominator between the volunteers and fundraisers involved.But were they praying for the right thing?
You would do better to put your time and effort into fundraising for medical research - it works. Prayers do not. You have said this yourself.
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300. Comment #152052 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 4:02 am
Bonzai-In order to apply local local anesthetics they need to stick a needle in your gum first, that is scary and painful. Secondly, you are conscious when the dentist does his thing because the anesthetic is local. You may not feel much pain but you can hear all the drilling and pulling. I have had a dentist who felt inclined to do a play by play update when my tooth was being pulled. "Oh.. oh.. it is coming off, oh shit, get to pull harder,,,"
When I had my first tooth abscess the pain was so bad, I was begging for the anaesthetic injection. Since then I have had no fear of dentists! For those who have not been through that, I understand the fear. The injections are pretty substantial (they have to reach deep nerves) and can ache for days afterwards.
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251. Comment #151944 by newskin on March 29, 2008 at 5:34 pm
I am reminded of Michael Behe during the Kansas trial when the judge pointed out that if a missing link was found, he would simply require two more to fill the new gaps!
As you asked:
The doctrine of prayer. As already stated but I am beggining to understand you are have selective vision.
The fact that you said that leads me to beleive you have read different posts to me. Are there now different versions of RD.net as there are The God Delusion?
Finally, as again you have not grasped it, I am saying that modern christians go to the doctor (as you have), so why bother with prayer? I am also saying that god made them ill in the first place.
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