Print
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
by Fox News
Thanks to Kubenzi for the link.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html
Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help
WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.
Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.
"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.
Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.
The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.
They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.
The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.
Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.
The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."
The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.
Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.
The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.
The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.
"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."
The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.
The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.
Add to del.icio.us
Posted: Wednesday, March 26, 2008 | PermalinkComments 301 - 350 of 372 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers302. Comment #152054 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 4:04 am
Comment #152033 by Bonzai
So what is the "proper use" of sexual fantasies? We all have them but some do go out and rape. Do we need an algorithm to determine what is a proper fantasy ?
I really don't want to get into this argument, simply because Bonsai is a bore who is like a dog with a bone when he gets into an argument.
However, I must comment.
Rape is almost never about sex or sexual fantasies. I t is almost always about power.
Just ask anyone who has been raped in gaol (I, thankfully, don't count myself amongst their number).
Other Comments by Hobbit
303. Comment #152057 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 4:09 am
310. Comment #152055 by Richard Morgan -Equally despicable is the glazed, dreamy, pretend-concern look that comes into peoples' eyes when they make that kind of utteranceThis is because they are disappearing up their own arses and don't want to see the view.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
304. Comment #152059 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 4:15 am
As you are the one making the distinction, perhaps you could tell us, along with
the "proper" use of faith and prayer?
All reasonable people would make the distinction.
Your big pharm analogy doesn't work unless, you believe prayers actually have active ingredients,
Many more people die of causes induced by eating junk food and fat,--heart diseases, diabetes etc,-- in the U.S than prayers. Food doesn't come with safe use manuals.
Most things in life don't come with instruction manuals and people get along fine, except for a few robotic individuals or so called rationalists who want to pretend that everyone else is a robot.
It encourages permanent delusion - it is not switched on and off within relatively safe bounds, and if someone wanders around all day in a dress and claims they hear God we call them Bishop, and invite them on government committees.
You keep harping on this and it has been dealt with many times. When Bishops got invited to committees they were invited by your secular government which does so for political reasons,-- rational calculations. They could have miscalculated but it has nothing to do with "faith".
It is not he Bishops' fault to accept the invitation. If you are given a podium for free wouldn't you use it?
Other Comments by Bonzai
305. Comment #152060 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 4:15 am
Comment #152047 by fides_et_ratio
the aim wasn't to bring them back without their disability, it was to give them a nice time. It succeeds year upon year. It succeeds because people are generous with their time and money. Prayer seems to be the common denominator between the volunteers and fundraisers involved.
So why not give them a "nice time closer to home and with less expense, put the money saved into medical research that can really help these kids?
And if prayer is the common denominator, what on earth are you praying for if not to help these disabled kids?
Other Comments by Hobbit
306. Comment #152062 by Geoff on March 30, 2008 at 4:18 am
Fides, I can't be bothered doing a search of the bible for you, but Psalm 118:8 is stuck up on a church near me, and it's that ethos that runs through most doctrines. Other Comments by Geoff
307. Comment #152063 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 4:21 am
fides,
I would also like to know your opinion on whether or not these people should be charged with murder by neglect?
Have their other children been abused? If so, should they be removed for their own safety? After all, the only thing their parents did that was wrong, was to pray!
Other Comments by Hobbit
308. Comment #152064 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 4:22 am
Comment #152059 by BonzaiAll reasonable person would make the distinction.
Ok then, how do you test for "reasonable"?
Your big pharm analogy also misfire unless, you believe prayers actually have active ingredients,
They do. The active ingredients are called delusion and gullibility.
Many more people die of causes induced by eating junk food and fat,--heart diseases, diabetes etc.
Food doesn't come with safe use manuals.
Yes it does. There are ingredients lists, and medical guidelines as to what is good for you and what isn't.
As you seem to know when faith is being misused then you presumably know what the "safe use" guidelines are.
You keep harping on this and it has been dealt with many times.
I "harp" because those bloody bishops are trying to restrict my rights.
When Bishops got invited to committees they were invited by your secular government which does so for political reasons,-- rational calculations. They could have miscalculated but it has nothing to do with "faith".
Of course it is to do with faith. Faith is institutionalised in my country - the Bishops are part of the established church and have an official role in government.
Let's try and simplify this with the use of quantum physics.
You claim that the "belief field" actually consists of two forces - "safe" and "unsafe". I see no such symmetry breaking. As you claim the split, then it is up to you to provide evidence for it and tell us the "faith" energy at which it happens.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
309. Comment #152065 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 4:23 am
HobbitI really don't want to get into this argument, simply because Bonsai is a bore who is like a dog with a bone when he gets into an argument.
Are you sure you are not talking about steve z? Whose picture do you see all over the site?
Sorry steve, I just can't resist this. :-)
Rape is almost never about sex or sexual fantasies. I t is almost always about power.
Sexual fantasies can be about power too,
Other Comments by Bonzai
310. Comment #152067 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 4:24 am
313. Comment #152059 by Bonzai -It is not he Bishops' fault to accept the invitation.It is their fault that they spout wilfully ignorant superstitious bullshit - and demand that we respect it - when they do. No one puts a gun to their heads and demands that they turn up to vote on the House of Lords. No one puts a gun to their heads and tells them they must oppose anti-discriminatory laws.
No one tells them they must turn up. No one tells them they must vote. It is their decision. Their actions and words are their responsibility and their's alone. That they are listened too and for some reason given a platform, is others responsibility.
End of conversation. Period.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
311. Comment #152069 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 4:27 am
Hobbit.what on earth are you praying for if not to help these disabled kids?
We did help them, granted we didn't give them the holiday destination of your choice, wherever that is, but then you could do something about that by giving up your own time and money to help someone in a similar position instead of criticising those who do couldn't you?
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
312. Comment #152070 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 4:28 am
Sorry steve, I just can't resist this. :-)
It's OK. It's nice to know I am irresistible in at least one way.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
313. Comment #152071 by Geoff on March 30, 2008 at 4:29 am
Food doesn't come with safe use manuals.
Yes it does! lists of salt/fat/etc contents. "May contain nuts".
Plus all the government health warnings: "5-a-day" and so on.
Edit: oops, this is moving too fast, Steve beat me to it!
Other Comments by Geoff
314. Comment #152073 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 4:30 am
Comment #152071 by Geoff"May contain nuts".
Perhaps that is appropriate for Churches too.
(Sorry fides)
Other Comments by Steve Zara
315. Comment #152074 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 4:32 am
Comment #152065 by Bonzai
Are you sure you are not talking about steve z?
Whose picture do you see all over the site?
No, I'm talking about you, who has no image all over this site, but lots of text.
Sexual fantasies can be about power too,
True. But the difference is a fantasy is something I want to act out (and if I'm lucky, get to act out with a consensual partner/s), rape is something that I actually act out on a non consensual partner.
It is an act of violence and humiliation perpetrated on another against their will.
Other Comments by Hobbit
316. Comment #152075 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 4:39 am
No, I'm talking about you, who has no image all over this site, but lots of text.
He also has more text than me, do a search, and I don't log on here 24/7 waiting to pounce.
I am surprised that whenever I made a post I can expect Steve to respond within minutes.
Speaking of which, it is relax time, have to go.
Oh, one last thing
Geoff
Yes it does! lists of salt/fat/etc contents. "May contain nuts".
Plus all the government health warnings: "5-a-day" and so on.
Well in that sense you do have safety warnings for religion. Some are labeled cults.
Other Comments by Bonzai
317. Comment #152078 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 4:43 am
Comment #152069 by fides_et_ratio
We did help them, granted we didn't give them the holiday destination of your choice, wherever that is, but then you could do something about that by giving up your own time and money to help someone in a similar position instead of criticising those who do couldn't you?
Actually, I do lot's of charity work and I have worked with disabled people during parts of my career (although not at the moment). The difference is, I don't do it to please some magic man in the sky and gain brownie points with him.
I don't do it to try and introduce these people to the magic man in the sky.
I do it because these people need help. I do it because it is human. I do it because I would like to think that if I need help one day, another member of our species will help me too.
Humans have been helping each other out for many thousands of years before god was invented.
Still waiting for your thoughts on the murder aspect etc?
Other Comments by Hobbit
318. Comment #152079 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 4:45 am
Richard M,If you had any self-respect, you could have found a more direct way of admitting that you'd lost that argument.
Who makes you the judge?
If I lost an argument at least I have one to begin with, can't say this about you.(of course I haven't lost the argument, but it will take more time to respond and I am outta here for now, I do have other commitments)
EDIT: TGD is not a very good book, have read it, find it so so. Dawkins is much better when he sticks to biology, just my opinions.
Other Comments by Bonzai
319. Comment #152080 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 4:46 am
In an attempt to find some common ground.1. We agree that the actions of the parents in the article were wrong.
2. We can see that their decision isn't representative of all religious people.
3. Churches may contain (traces of) nuts.
4. It's time for coffee, and in my case football.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
320. Comment #152081 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 4:49 am
Actually, I do lot's of charity work and I have worked with disabled people during parts of my career
And I'm sure you'll appreciate me not telling you how to do it.
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
321. Comment #152082 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 4:51 am
Comment #152080 by fides_et_ratio
In an attempt to find some common ground.
1. We agree that the actions of the parents in the article were wrong.
2. We can see that their decision isn't representative of all religious people.
3. Churches may contain (traces of) nuts.
And should they be charged with murder? If not, why not?
Should they have their remaining children removed from them? If not, why not?
Other Comments by Hobbit
322. Comment #152083 by Steve Zara on March 30, 2008 at 4:51 am
Bonzai-He also has more text than me, do a search, and I don't log on here 24/7 waiting to pounce.
For goodness sake man, get a grip. So far on this thread you have called me (and others) puritans, idiots who would not pass the Turing test and now anyone who responds quickly to you is some like of virtual stalker.
Well, sorry, but forgive me for being a good multi-tasker and for finding this site interesting and the company stimulating. You have all the time to respond to posts that you like. You are clearly an intelligent guy, but you aren't doing yourself justice in the nature of some of your responses.
I probably disagree somewhat more with fides' views, but he is responding calmly and with dignity.
The sun is shining. I am off to hack at a holly hedge for a while.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
323. Comment #152084 by BillySands on March 30, 2008 at 4:52 am
These people are child abusing cunts and society must be protected from them. Other Comments by BillySands
324. Comment #152086 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 4:54 am
Comment #152084 by BillySands
These people are cunts!
Don't hold back Billy, tell us what you really think!
Other Comments by Hobbit
325. Comment #152087 by mmurray on March 30, 2008 at 4:55 am
fides_et_ratio. You say:
I think they were wrong and should've taken their daughter to the doctor, why, because when my daughter's sick, I take her to the doctor.
Secondly, the point of prayer is not to change the mind of God, but to change the life of the one who prays. So when I ask for God's help, it's not part of a deal-making process, it's to accept the reality that I'm not the highest power in my life. Incidentally, it works very well for me.
Where do you get this particular interpretation of prayer from? Why not just assume that what John (14:14) reports as Jesus words:
"You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it"
are exactly what Jesus meant ? Is the translation wrong, is it contradicted by other text, is John unreliable??
Thanks - Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
326. Comment #152088 by BillySands on March 30, 2008 at 4:56 am
Don't hold back Billy, tell us what you really think!
I really cant express how much these people disgust me right now. The talk of resurrection undelines just how fucking sick and mental they are.
Other Comments by BillySands
327. Comment #152089 by mmurray on March 30, 2008 at 5:00 am
We did help them, granted we didn't give them the holiday destination of your choice, wherever that is, but then you could do something about that by giving up your own time and money to help someone in a similar position instead of criticising those who do couldn't you?
How do you deal with the risk that some of them will be expecting a miracle because of the particular destination you have chosen ?
Michael
Other Comments by mmurray
328. Comment #152090 by fides_et_ratio on March 30, 2008 at 5:01 am
Murray, this might help.http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm
Other Comments by fides_et_ratio
329. Comment #152091 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 5:01 am
Comment #152081 by fides_et_ratio
And I'm sure you'll appreciate me not telling you how to do it.
I simply told you how I do it!
Other Comments by Hobbit
330. Comment #152092 by Bonzai on March 30, 2008 at 5:01 am
All right, as Dylan sang "one more cup of coffee before I go".For goodness sake man, get a grip. So far on this thread you have called me (and others) puritans, idiots who would not pass the Turing test and now anyone who responds quickly to you is some like of virtual stalker.
1. Yes I did call you guys Puritans of "reason", I think that is apt and you least of all should be offended. With thinking like "the moderates enable the fundamentalists" and "belief in invisible God --> a licence for gullibility all the way --> refusal to see doctors" Puritanism for "rationality" is exactly what you have been promoting here, is it not?
2. I used "people who can't pass the Turing test" and "idiots" for believers such as the parents. Not you and others. Sorry if that wasn't clear.
3.I mentioned your quick response because Hobbit was apparently insinuating that I may have OCD.But obviously I am not the only one and hardly the most acute case here, It didn't mean to imply that you're cyber stalking. Again my apologies if that wasn't clear.
Other Comments by Bonzai
331. Comment #152093 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 5:08 am
Comment #152090 by fides_et_ratio
Murray, this might help.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm
So this is your interpretation of what prayer is. Please explain how the parent's in this case were wrong in their interpretation?
Other Comments by Hobbit
332. Comment #152095 by Henri Bergson on March 30, 2008 at 5:14 am
This is evolution in action: non-survival of detrimental characteristics (low intelligence).Or, natural eugenics.
Other Comments by Henri Bergson
333. Comment #152096 by Hobbit on March 30, 2008 at 5:15 am
Sorry boys and girls, but it is past my bed time. I will take this up tomorrow.
Good night all.
Other Comments by Hobbit
334. Comment #152100 by mmurray on March 30, 2008 at 5:46 am
Murray, this might help.
http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/12345b.htm
Thanks but not really that just tells me what I (or at least a catholic) should believe but not why. (My memory of my catholic childhood suggests that was the usual approach!) I am left wondering, like Hobbit, why the catholic church has come to this particular interpretation. There is no doubt some theological answer perhaps Jesus is promising only to always ask God the Father to do something not that he (Jesus) will make the something happen. But then we are going to get lost in what thetrinity means and why Jesus is not just talking to himself at this point or why on earth (or in heaven) God the Father would say no to a request from Jesus who is after all an aspect of himself.
I guess as an atheist I am inclined to the practical answer that for the religion to survive, given that there is no god to answer the prayers, it had to interpret what Jesus said in a way designed to avoid too many disappointed adherents.
Michael
PS: Not sure it helps but there is the lolcat translation of John 14:
Jesus give kittehs cheezburgerz
13 Wen I goez back to Ceiling Cat, u say "In Jebus' name" an I do all stuffs for u! Den Ceiling Cat getz all praise from all kittehs!
14 Ask me anything! Chek it out, d00d! Cause I doez it fr u!
Other Comments by mmurray
335. Comment #152102 by AfraidToDie on March 30, 2008 at 6:00 am
2. Comment #149726 by Lucas
Child abuse, pure and simple. These people should be hanged. They're lucky as hell that I'm so far away from Wisconsin
Lucas, I am curious if you really feel you would do something physical to these people as you insinuate? I'm guessing you are just expressing how strongly you feel, but would not really take to action? These people are obviously very ignorant, and perhaps mentally ill. I do think that those that dedicate their lives to the supernatural have varying degrees of mental illness. I wonder what the remaining teenagers think about what happened, since they probably had to watch their sister's slow demise?
16. Comment #149762 by pulsar1z
There are some people that just have not evolved intelligence
I'd think the parents deserve a "Darwin Award", but I don't think there is any way to write this up to contain any humor.
35. Comment #149801 by heafnerj
Only in America....where child abuse is defended on religious grounds.
We keep getting the blame for all our religious lunacy when it is obviously Good Britain's fault. You wouldn't allow religious freedom in your country, so all the worst loonies jumped on boats and came here. We are still struggling to rid ourselves (by natural selection) of those who carried whatever f'd up gene that causes irrational belief. Just a few more thousand years (thanks to you) and we'll be rid of it.
Other Comments by AfraidToDie
336. Comment #152105 by Geoff on March 30, 2008 at 6:21 am
Bonzai:Well in that sense you do have safety warnings for religion. Some are labeled cults.
The only difference between a cult and "mainstream" religion is size (and to some extent time of inception). Nothing really to do with safety.
Pastafarianism could accurately be called a cult!
fides:
2. We can see that their decision isn't representative of all religious people.
That's part of the "no true christian" argument that we're trying to get across to you. Nothing is
"representative of all religious people", or even of all christians, or even of all catholics...the subdivisions go on and on.
The point being that they [the parents in the article] are just as convinced as any other sect that their interpretation is the correct one. Just as is Fred Phelps, or Ted Haggard, or the Pope...
Other Comments by Geoff
337. Comment #152116 by Titania on March 30, 2008 at 6:50 am
RichardM: I live in the American South and frequently have to hear, "I'll pray for you" My response is, "Please do not pray for me. My prayer is, Lord save us from those who pray for us." Other Comments by Titania
338. Comment #152120 by AfraidToDie on March 30, 2008 at 7:20 am
126. Comment #150315 by FightingFalcon:
I don't know - for anti-government Libertarians like myself….. I've grown very hostile to government intervention in private matters such as this
SteveRoot is correct… "This is one of the proper functions of government". Libertarians are often on the edge of "extreme", especially those that believe in absolutely no government, which is anarchy in my book. Where do you draw the line FF? Do you want government to provide infrastructure? Do you want only state laws to prevail? I don't like government surveillance, and I certainly am leery about many actions government may take. However, I believe government can and does have an ever evolving positive role to play in society. Our Bill of Rights is the grand goal to keep in mind, and government is the tool to insure we try and keep it to the forefront. And, FF, I want our federal government to take money from you too (just like all of us) to make sure our infrastructure and rights are maintained. Right now, it's not doing very well, but I sure as hell don't want anarchy to be the solution. And yes, I believe our government is required to get involved to save some people from themselves, especially the remaining children in the Neumann family of whacko's.
Other Comments by AfraidToDie
339. Comment #152129 by black wolf on March 30, 2008 at 8:06 am
Well in that sense you do have safety warnings for religion. Some are labeled cults.
I don't know who does the labeling in your country, but in mine the sect appointee is a member of the Protestant or Catholic church and gets appointed by them, and is officially reckognized as advisor to the government. If there's an obligation for sects and cults to display that label at their door, I haven't seen it.
Other Comments by black wolf
340. Comment #152132 by black wolf on March 30, 2008 at 8:23 am
This is evolution in action: non-survival of detrimental characteristics (low intelligence).
It doesn't work that way. I don't have any study handy (someone here may be able to provide one), but my impression is that people of lower intelligence tend to produce an above average number of children. The exact opposite would be a system Stanislaw Lem satirically described as an Intellocracy: only the most intelligent people get appointed to political office. According to Lem, this would result in a stagnant and gradually deteriorating society, because the people of highest intelligence want to discuss every minute aspect of a problem before making a decision. As almost no socio-political problem can be solved 100% without disregarding slight disadvantages of the decision, just about nothing ever gets done.
Other Comments by black wolf
341. Comment #152133 by Dr Benway on March 30, 2008 at 8:29 am
I have a slightly different theory. What if, in the back of these parent's very small brain, they knew that by taking their daughter to a doctor, she would be cured?Bingo. Before this girl died, she was sick enough for long enough that even a child would have known to call a doctor.
And who ever assumes a child won't be cured? They nearly always are cured.
If this happened, they would have to acknowledge that their faith in prayer and the sky fairy has been completely misguided and that they have been wasting their lives on this shit as well as passing it on to their children.It's impossible to believe until you've seen it with your own eyes a few times. But there are humans among us who behave thus, covertly screwing others to preserve their own sense of godliness, honor, reputation, etc. I reserve the word "evil" for these people.
They're often pillars of the community, people admired for their "charity" and "self-sacrifice." Woe to you if one of these creatures happens to be your mother or father.
You won't see them if you fail to imagine that they exist.
I'd vote for tatooing the word "run" on their foreheads, once they've been identified. But for the most part, there's nothing to be done with them.
Other Comments by Dr Benway
342. Comment #152143 by Podaar on March 30, 2008 at 8:59 am
Comment #152133 by Dr Benway But there are humans among us who behave thus, covertly screwing others to preserve their own sense of godliness, honor, reputation, etc. I reserve the word "evil" for these people.This is exactly upset me so much about this story.
-- Gregg
Other Comments by Podaar
343. Comment #152156 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 30, 2008 at 9:24 am
"Now if these parent's had merely beaten their kid and the child had lived, they likely would go to jail."
Agreed, and my friends complain that I "hafta be so militant." This is a GOOD reason NOT to keep quiet about religious nonsense. As was stated before...it kills, and those responsible aren't held accountable, because religious beliefs are above criticism and challenge.
Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy
344. Comment #152167 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 30, 2008 at 10:41 am
"the aim wasn't to bring them back without their disablility, it was to give them a nice time. It succeeds year upon year. It succeeds because people are generous with their time and money. Prayer seems to be the common denominator between the volunteers and fundraisers involved."
If the aim is to show them a nice time, why not petition Hannah Montana to throw them a concert, staffed by volunteers? Trip to Disney World? If it's to give them a chance to see and do things they wouldn't be able to do otherwise, why take them to a place of false hopes and disappointment? After all, isn't it true that the main reason pilgrims go to Lourdes is to experience a miracle? Why would they go otherwise?
Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy
345. Comment #152173 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 30, 2008 at 10:57 am
"It's OK. It's nice to know I am irresistible in at least one way
Dude, it's gotta be the colour of your hair. Wait...what colour is that again? ;)
Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy
346. Comment #152202 by Duffski on March 30, 2008 at 12:33 pm
This is manslaughter, pure and simple.
There is no reason at all why a doctor could not have saved this girl's life, and religion should never be an excuse for not seeking medical help - unfortunately it far too often is.
Other Comments by Duffski
347. Comment #152385 by 10wattmindtrip on March 30, 2008 at 10:36 pm
This is wrong. There are no words to justify just how wrong this really is.I can go on to say, as many of you have, that the parents should be put in jail or even worse. However, in a world where religion is so painfully pumping through our veins, spewing out toxic ideas and beliefs as a virus does to our bodies, there is really nothing we can do right now. Which makes this one hundred times worse.
I will continue to do my part by showing people of faith that there is an alternative.
One of my favourite sayings is from a recording I heard from a Tool concert where Maynard says, "Think for yourself, question authority."
Enough said.
-Ten
Other Comments by 10wattmindtrip
348. Comment #152392 by righton on March 30, 2008 at 11:47 pm
Apparently this just happened again, in my own state! This time it was a fifteen month old that died of a "curable disease", the parents are members of the Followers of Christ Church in Oregon City, Oregon."Right now, the infant's parents are not facing any charges but they could still be arrested."
Unbelievable
http://www.kptv.com/news/15737201/detail.html
Other Comments by righton
349. Comment #152406 by Hobbit on March 31, 2008 at 1:13 am
fides,
Still waiting on your thoughts about whether or not these people murdered their children!
Should the other kids be taken away?
What is the catholic view on this?
Other Comments by Hobbit
350. Comment #152446 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 31, 2008 at 3:44 am
You ask "isn't it true...?"
Well, no, it isn't true, in the sense that not all of the millions of people who visit Lourdes each year are the sick seeking a miracle cure.
Don't imagine that I am defending Lourdes and it's delusional function, but we need always to address the reality of what believers are claiming rather than what we imagine they are claiming.
Many of the pilgrims at Lourdes will speak of the "miracle of faith renewed, or faith strengthened".
Or simply a faith boosting experience without particular reference to a miracle.
My personal "miracle" happened just 30 kms from Lourdes, at a place called Luz-Saint Sauveur, where I was healed of a lifelong fear of heights and vertigo.
On the Napoleon Bridge, to be precise. A bungee jump of 90m!! A terrifying experience, but, darn it, it worked! And I know how. So, in fact, no miracle at all.
OIC...thanks muchly for the clarification, Richard! :)
Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy
Upcoming Events:
About this site
Mailing List Signup: Enter your email
Go to The Richard Dawkins Foundation for Reason and Science
Richard Dawkins Articles | Comments | Tour Journal
Atheist Resources | Local Groups
Debate Points | Latest Responses
Audio Books
The God Delusion
Read by
Richard Dawkins &
Lalla Ward
The Ancestor's Tale
Read by
Richard Dawkins &
Lalla Ward
On the Origin of Species
Read by
Richard Dawkins
Links:
Quote:
"What can be asserted without proof can be dismissed without proof."
Christopher Hitchens
Other Recommended Reading
Against All Gods
A C Grayling
Darwin's Dangerous Idea
Daniel C. Dennett
On The Origin of Species
Charles Darwin
More Books
Adjust font size: 
"If this book doesn't change the world -- we're all screwed."
-Penn (Penn & Teller)
The God Delusion
by Richard Dawkins
Over 1.5 million copies sold
DVDs
'The Genius of Charles Darwin' DVD (PAL Region 2 ONLY)
'Enemies of Reason' DVD
'Voices of Science' DVD
'The Four Horsemen' DVD
'Root of All Evil? The Original Program' DVD
'Growing Up in the Universe' DVD
'Break the Science Barrier' DVD
Books by Richard Dawkins
The Oxford Book of Modern Science Writing
by Richard Dawkins
The Selfish Gene
by Richard Dawkins
The Blind Watchmaker
by Richard Dawkins
The Ancestor's Tale
by Richard Dawkins
Unweaving the Rainbow
by Richard Dawkins
301. Comment #152053 by irate_atheist on March 30, 2008 at 4:04 am
http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=gYgzjcLfp7EC&pg=PA640&lpg=PA640&dq=analgesic paste dentistry&source=web&ots=J7_w6Nb_lv&sig=m1-qFzxAKo7Sc1a8hQ3KEOph_zE&hl=en
Perhaps it is why my dentist is so damn expensive, but I don't mind going to him and begrudge him not a penny of his fees.
Other Comments by irate_atheist