Wednesday, March 26, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

by Fox News

Thanks to Kubenzi for the link.

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,341574,00.html

Police: Girl Dies After Parents Pray for Healing Instead of Seeking Medical Help

WESTON, Wis. — An 11-year-old girl died after her parents prayed for healing rather than seek medical help for a treatable form of diabetes, police said Tuesday.

Everest Metro Police Chief Dan Vergin said Madeline Neumann died Sunday.

"She got sicker and sicker until she was dead," he said.

Vergin said an autopsy determined the girl died from diabetic ketoacidosis, an ailment that left her with too little insulin in her body, and she had probably been ill for about 30 days, suffering symptoms like nausea, vomiting, excessive thirst, loss of appetite and weakness.

The girl's parents, Dale and Leilani Neumann, attributed the death to "apparently they didn't have enough faith," the police chief said.

They believed the key to healing "was it was better to keep praying. Call more people to help pray," he said.

The mother believes the girl could still be resurrected, the police chief said.

Telephone messages left at the Neumann home by The Associated Press were not immediately returned.

The family does not attend an organized church or participate in an organized religion, Vergin said. "They have a little Bible study of a few people."

The parents told investigators their daughter last saw a doctor when she was 3 to get some shots, Vergin said. The girl had attended public school during the first semester but didn't return for the second semester.

Officers went to the home after one of the girl's relatives in California called police to check on her, Vergin said. She was taken to a hospital where she was pronounced dead.

The relative was fearful the girl was "extremely ill, dire," Vergin said.

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

The girl's death remains under investigation and the findings will be forwarded to the district attorney to review for possible charges, the chief said.

The family operates a coffee shop in Weston, which is a suburb of Wausau, Vergin said.

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351. Comment #152446 by Colwyn Abernathy on March 31, 2008 at 3:44 am

You ask "isn't it true...?"
Well, no, it isn't true, in the sense that not all of the millions of people who visit Lourdes each year are the sick seeking a miracle cure.
Don't imagine that I am defending Lourdes and it's delusional function, but we need always to address the reality of what believers are claiming rather than what we imagine they are claiming.
Many of the pilgrims at Lourdes will speak of the "miracle of faith renewed, or faith strengthened".
Or simply a faith boosting experience without particular reference to a miracle.
My personal "miracle" happened just 30 kms from Lourdes, at a place called Luz-Saint Sauveur, where I was healed of a lifelong fear of heights and vertigo.
On the Napoleon Bridge, to be precise. A bungee jump of 90m!! A terrifying experience, but, darn it, it worked! And I know how. So, in fact, no miracle at all.

OIC...thanks muchly for the clarification, Richard! :)

Other Comments by Colwyn Abernathy

352. Comment #152448 by Geoff on March 31, 2008 at 3:59 am

righton, I thought I'd heard of that church from somewhere, so I did a quick Google:

http://www.positiveatheism.org/writ/deadbabies.htm

This article was 10 years ago, and STILL nothing's been done about them.
Read the whole article, if you have time. It made me cry.

Other Comments by Geoff

353. Comment #152450 by Steve Zara on March 31, 2008 at 4:13 am

Comment #152448 by Geoff

I am truly shocked:

"Children are dying from a lack of medical care in dozens of faith-healing churches in the United States, according to Dr. Seth Asser, who co-wrote a national study on faith-healing child deaths published in the April edition of Pediatrics, the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics."

Other Comments by Steve Zara

354. Comment #152452 by Incredulous on March 31, 2008 at 4:34 am

Comment Geoff #162448

Harrowing. Geoff, are there any more recent statistics on this abominable practice?

Does christian doctrine say suffer little children or make little children suffer?

I get completely confused by these people; more and more I simply find it difficult to engage with the few people who truly believe this faith stuff has any relevance in 21st Century life.

Other Comments by Incredulous

355. Comment #152457 by Titania on March 31, 2008 at 4:57 am

Perhaps Josh can create a button on the home page of this site entitled "Lord Save Us From Those Who Pray For Us" where he can post these incidents so we can have some ready links to these atrocities. Of course, our "Lord" is the great Quetz!

Other Comments by Titania

356. Comment #152473 by Tyler Durden on March 31, 2008 at 5:53 am

Unfortunately, these faith-heads will rationalise it all away as "God's will". Either way, they win. Child survives = God's will. Child dies = God's will.

While watching an epidose of ER last night, I was annoyed and exasperated when a young mother claimed it "a miracle" when her son, having fallen into a frozen lake, was saved by a heart by-pass machine - and so it was "God's will" her son survived.

Nope, not a miracle, just science!

Of course in the same episode one doctor remarked about faith/God - "It doesn't have to make any sense, that's why it's called faith".

How right he was.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

357. Comment #152658 by righton on March 31, 2008 at 9:56 am

Thanks Geoff,

That was very sad and disturbing. I am wondering if I should bring this to the attention of the media. I would like to see this church have at least some kind of pressure from the public on it.

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358. Comment #152660 by righton on March 31, 2008 at 10:02 am

Here is an update on the story in Oregon, just saw it this morning.

http://www.kgw.com/news-local/stories/kgw_033008_news_faith_healing.1742971c.html

Other Comments by righton

359. Comment #152661 by al-rawandi on March 31, 2008 at 10:03 am

I believe charges have been filed against the parents.

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360. Comment #152779 by MelM on March 31, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Re: KGW article from righton.

I see there was also a religious exemption to the homicide laws.

I haven't seen anything about charges in the Wis case. I thought there was going to be a decision by Fri.

Edit: According to article,
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/23832053/

...noting that he [the police chief] expects to complete the investigation by Friday and forward the results to the district attorney.

So, we'll just have to wait for a decision.

Other Comments by MelM

361. Comment #152849 by MelM on March 31, 2008 at 4:19 pm

Comment #152448 by Geoff,

I read the whole story; good background information. I'd never heard of the "Followers".

The 1999 Oregon law seems to have worked as a deterrent 'till this case.

The Oregonian March 22

http://www.oregonlive.com/news/oregonian/index.ssf?/base/news/1206156310185280.xml&coll=7&thispage=1

Since the law passed, Courtney and others said they haven't heard of any Oregon cases involving children who died because their parents chose prayer over medical care. "I really thought we'd resolved it," he said.

I note that with the 1994 Death With Dignity Act and the 1999 change to religious exemption, Oregon came a long way in just 5 years to dent religion's miserable impact. But, I believe Oregon is still the only state with an act to allow doctor assisted suicide--a totally benevolent action.

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362. Comment #152948 by MelM on March 31, 2008 at 6:42 pm

About Kara's death,

"...let this witch-hunt end. ... How is it that so many people are so heartless about this? "

From a comment about the story: Fifth-graders still in shock over Kara's death in Wausau daily Herald

treehugger19 said: (March 31)
...
"Everybody just remembered how non-judgmental she was of everybody and how caring she was," Hughes said.

Maybe it's time to take a cue from this little girl and stop judging others.... including her family.

But, out of respect for Kara, I think it's time to let this "witch-hunt" end. The Neumann family lost their little girl! Can you even imagine the pain they are experiencing? How is it that so many people are so heartless about this?

So, let's let Kara be an inspiration to all of us!

Let's: Be less judgmental of others.

...

So, we should ignore children's rights, parent's obligations, and justice? I don't think so!!!
Being just--whether for rewards or condemnation--requires passing judgements. Without judgement, people don't get what they deserve--good or bad.

http://wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/frontpage
To see the story, they're asking for a few bits of info but you don't have to create an account.

Other Comments by MelM

363. Comment #152954 by tooltroll on March 31, 2008 at 7:00 pm

Murder 1. Pure and simple.
The parents had ample time to premeditate denying their daughter treatment. The negligent fucks should fry, and the surviving children placed somewhere their basic medical and educational needs aren't grossly neglected. As for the parents' 'pain', it's self-inflicted. Fuck 'em.

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364. Comment #152959 by sundiver on March 31, 2008 at 7:08 pm

Just goes to show ya, jeebus loving cretins aren't confined to the heart o' dixie. As a southerner transplanted to Milwaukee, I'm stunned at the number of creationists and racists in this so-called liberal state. I've taken to calling Milwaukee "Richmond North" after hearing so much religious crap from the natives. I do wonder if the US is doomed after all.

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365. Comment #152980 by MelM on March 31, 2008 at 7:32 pm

wausaudailyherald.com has a special section on Kara's case. Having given them a little info, I'm able to access the stories without re-input of info--cookie I guess.

http://wausaudailyherald.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/99999999/WDH0101/80325198&theme=WDHNEUMANN&template=theme

There's another comment to the "Fifth-grader's..." story that has some info about the investigation:

From commenter EMSMO (March 31)
...
Well stated....but let's look at some cold, hard facts.

-The family had proof of medical insurance per the search warrant executed by Everest Metro Police.
-In the search warrant, police recovered multiple medical publications, medicine cups, a syringe and a red liquid.
-The extended family urged Kara's parents to seek medical treatment for her dating back (about) a week before hear death and culminating almost at the moment of death.
-There are very few (if any) religions that strictly prohibit medical care in lieu of prayer-especially when children are involved.
-In the initial affadavidt for serach warrant, Everest Metro Police stated that Medical Examiner John Larsen told them that Kara was emaciated. Emaciation does not happen over night. We're talking about a process of weeks to months, depending on the person.

...

I don't know where EMSMO is getting his/her facts but this looks uglier already. Another thing I've read that has me pissed is that the family called the "Unleavend Bread Ministries" witch doctor on Saturday and asked him to also pray for Kara. Didn't he know what was going on? Did the parent's not tell him? Couldn't he have taken the bone out of his nose for a few seconds and told the parents to get medical help?

Other Comments by MelM

366. Comment #153024 by joshie on March 31, 2008 at 10:23 pm

absolutely horrid story....

i was having a good day until reading this and now i'm just covered in sheer despair for the stupidity of some members of the human race.

it's hard to resist slipping into that familiar pool of pessimism. the universe doesn't care if a defenceless 11 year old girl died, it didn't even blink to mark her passing.

it's hard to maintain your own humanity in the face of these ugly facts. or am i just taking this a tad too personally?

Other Comments by joshie

367. Comment #153034 by Bigorra on March 31, 2008 at 11:06 pm

For the theists in this discussion:

http://www.whywontgodhealamputees.com/

Other Comments by Bigorra

368. Comment #153037 by MelM on March 31, 2008 at 11:18 pm

Perk up joshie. Oregon made big changes--maybe Wis will as well. I saw a news video done in Kara's town that said the locals were pretty angry. So, the people who think that a "witch-hunt" is going on, may be in a tiny minority. I hope so. My point in posting the "witch-hunt" comment was not to show the majority view but to show how the "don't judge" idea was being used to get the family out of being condemned. As for the universe not caring, I don't care at all about that and I don't think about it.

Other Comments by MelM

369. Comment #153241 by PJG on April 1, 2008 at 9:20 am

"Children are dying from a lack of medical care in dozens of faith-healing churches in the United States, according to Dr. Seth Asser, who co-wrote a national study on faith-healing child deaths published in the April edition of Pediatrics, the journal of the American Academy of Pediatrics."

At the risk of being inappropriately lighthearted about this awful situation..... maybe there should be a "Darwin Award by Proxy"?

Other Comments by PJG

370. Comment #153347 by flying goose on April 1, 2008 at 12:09 pm

I am not sure anyone on this site, is defending these people.Comparing me with this couple, is like finding a group of early homanids surviving in some unexplored part of the world and saying they are the same as Homo Sapiens.

Other Comments by flying goose

371. Comment #155572 by Raiko on April 4, 2008 at 11:36 pm

The girl has three siblings, ranging in age from 13 to 16, the police chief said.

"They are still in the home," he said. "There is no reason to remove them. There is no abuse or signs of abuse that we can see."

What? No reason to remove them?
Common sense tells every thinking being that there's a huge reason to remove the children.

... sometimes I am thankful that this actually is a crime here in Germany (homicide by failure to render assistance), and that in this case the other children would luckily be taken away.

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372. Comment #174184 by markg on May 1, 2008 at 8:17 pm

Here is an update http://www.jsonline.com/story/index.aspx?id=745889

The parents have been charged with second-degree reckless homicide.

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373. Comment #188847 by JuxtaMonkey on June 4, 2008 at 7:35 pm

This story gravely upsets me! Not to mention the fact that this little girl has siblings who, if they share the same DNA, run a very high risk of acquiring Type I diabetes as well, if not already. Ketosis is a very treatable condition in which education could have been provided to prevent further incidences. Did they know this girl had Type I diabetes?

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