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For sale: 13-year-old virgin
by Telegraph
Thanks to DoctorE for the link.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/13/wvirgin113.xml
For sale: 13-year-old virgin
By Sue Ryan in Bharatpur
A mile beyond the town of Bharatpur in Rajasthan, where the highway is being widened to four lanes, traffic slows down for roadworks. But the workmen who lounge by their bulldozers have their eyes on something else - a cluster of makeshift shelters where girls, several under 18 and at least two younger than 15, can be seen strolling or sitting, in view of the dusty carriageway.
Tonight, one girl in particular is attracting attention as she sits on a stool by a fire so that she can be seen by passing vehicles. Her heavily made-up, striking face and beautiful pink sari make her look as if she were on her way to a party. But the truth is different. Suli, 14, is a virgin and a bidding war is being held for the right to be the first to sleep with her.
The collection of shelters where she lives houses 59 families, all members of the Bedia tribe, which has a long tradition of caste-based prostitution. Girls born here become prostitutes in a rite of passage into "adulthood" as routine as marriage is to the rest of Indian society.
The "first time" is a valued commodity for which the middle-class businessmen who pass this way are prepared to pay a premium.
The normal rate is 100 rupees (£1.30) but a virgin is sold to the highest bidder for anything over 20,000 rupees. If she is very pretty, the community would hope to get up to 40,000 rupees. For this, the man can have access to the girl for as long as he likes - several hours, days, or even weeks. When he tires of her, there is a celebration. Because it is considered unlucky for a girl to keep the money from her first time, it is spent instead on an extravagant party. Jewellery is bought for her and for her relatives, goats are slaughtered and alcohol runs freely. There is dancing, and offerings are made to the gods.
Once a girl has lost her virginity she cannot marry. The choice has been made and the community celebrates it - this is her non-wedding night.
Suli said she was happy to enter the trade. "I chose it," she said, though she admitted being "a little" frightened. "I do not know how it is going to be. I know other girls who are in the trade but I have not asked them how it is."
She claimed it did not matter what the man looked like. "I will go with whoever pays the highest price," she said, before running off as her mother called her for supper.
Nita, a virgin in the hut next door, has four sisters, all prostitutes. She wears jeans and a skimpy top, and giggles a lot. One sister boasts that as Nita is particularly pretty, they hope to get 40,000 rupees (£600). "We have been offered 25,000, but it is not enough."
Nita is only 13 but has opted to follow her sisters into the trade. It is her own "choice", because, she giggled, "I won't have to do any housework."
But in avoiding making chapatis, Nita has signed up to a life in which she will deal with 20 to 30 clients per day, until she reaches her forties. After that, when she is no longer considered desirable, she will depend on any children she may have for support.
Two of her sisters, Ritu, 35, and Manju, 25, have built one of the few stone houses in their village, for which they paid the equivalent of £14,600, and are proud of their success. "There was a lot of poverty, we had nothing to eat," said Manju. "What you see now has come with hard work." They support 50 family members - 35 children and 15 adults.
Elsewhere in India, the birth of a boy is celebrated with dowries paid by the bride's family, one of the reasons given for the high abortion rate for female foetuses. But in the villages around Bharatpur there is a shortage of girls to marry, and the custom is for the boy's family to pay the girl's family a large lump sum before the wedding can take place.
Possibly because the money comes from prostitution, and because any granddaughters will be destined for the trade, the sums are high.
Ritu and Manju paid for four of their five brothers to marry, and now support their sisters-in-law, nieces and nephews.
They earn between 1,000 and 1,500 rupees a day. It was more before the government knocked down their shelters to make room for the highway.
"We need a shelter by the road," they said. "Tell the government to build us somewhere we can work. We used to have 25 or 30 clients a day, now the average is 10 or 15." They said they were able to keep their rates up because they could provide a nice room and running water for their clients, who are mostly married businessmen from Agra.
The prevalence of caste-based prostitution in certain tribes in the region - the Bawaria, Nuts, Bedias, Kanjars and Sansis - came to light after a raid on a brothel in Delhi. Now an attempt is being made to break the cycle by which the girls of each generation enter the trade.
Dr KK Mukerjee, a social work professor at the University of Delhi, who was commissioned by the government to research the scope of prostitution, has founded a group, known as GNK. Supported by Plan International, a child-centred community development agency, the organisation has set up a hostel to look after prostitutes' children.
Many of the women said they did not wish their daughters to follow them into the trade. Ritu and Manju each have a daughter, whose fathers were clients. "My daughter will get educated, and not enter this profession," said Ritu. "I have seen what it is like. I don't want it for her."
A young boy at the hostel told proudly how he had persuaded his grandmother not to push his aunt into prostitution. "My grandmother said that she would kill herself if my aunt did not go into the trade and earn money," he said. "But I persuaded her, and my aunt got married."
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2008/04/13/wvirgin113.xml
For sale: 13-year-old virgin
By Sue Ryan in Bharatpur
A mile beyond the town of Bharatpur in Rajasthan, where the highway is being widened to four lanes, traffic slows down for roadworks. But the workmen who lounge by their bulldozers have their eyes on something else - a cluster of makeshift shelters where girls, several under 18 and at least two younger than 15, can be seen strolling or sitting, in view of the dusty carriageway.
Tonight, one girl in particular is attracting attention as she sits on a stool by a fire so that she can be seen by passing vehicles. Her heavily made-up, striking face and beautiful pink sari make her look as if she were on her way to a party. But the truth is different. Suli, 14, is a virgin and a bidding war is being held for the right to be the first to sleep with her.
The collection of shelters where she lives houses 59 families, all members of the Bedia tribe, which has a long tradition of caste-based prostitution. Girls born here become prostitutes in a rite of passage into "adulthood" as routine as marriage is to the rest of Indian society.
The "first time" is a valued commodity for which the middle-class businessmen who pass this way are prepared to pay a premium.
The normal rate is 100 rupees (£1.30) but a virgin is sold to the highest bidder for anything over 20,000 rupees. If she is very pretty, the community would hope to get up to 40,000 rupees. For this, the man can have access to the girl for as long as he likes - several hours, days, or even weeks. When he tires of her, there is a celebration. Because it is considered unlucky for a girl to keep the money from her first time, it is spent instead on an extravagant party. Jewellery is bought for her and for her relatives, goats are slaughtered and alcohol runs freely. There is dancing, and offerings are made to the gods.
Once a girl has lost her virginity she cannot marry. The choice has been made and the community celebrates it - this is her non-wedding night.
Suli said she was happy to enter the trade. "I chose it," she said, though she admitted being "a little" frightened. "I do not know how it is going to be. I know other girls who are in the trade but I have not asked them how it is."
She claimed it did not matter what the man looked like. "I will go with whoever pays the highest price," she said, before running off as her mother called her for supper.
Nita, a virgin in the hut next door, has four sisters, all prostitutes. She wears jeans and a skimpy top, and giggles a lot. One sister boasts that as Nita is particularly pretty, they hope to get 40,000 rupees (£600). "We have been offered 25,000, but it is not enough."
Nita is only 13 but has opted to follow her sisters into the trade. It is her own "choice", because, she giggled, "I won't have to do any housework."
But in avoiding making chapatis, Nita has signed up to a life in which she will deal with 20 to 30 clients per day, until she reaches her forties. After that, when she is no longer considered desirable, she will depend on any children she may have for support.
Two of her sisters, Ritu, 35, and Manju, 25, have built one of the few stone houses in their village, for which they paid the equivalent of £14,600, and are proud of their success. "There was a lot of poverty, we had nothing to eat," said Manju. "What you see now has come with hard work." They support 50 family members - 35 children and 15 adults.
Elsewhere in India, the birth of a boy is celebrated with dowries paid by the bride's family, one of the reasons given for the high abortion rate for female foetuses. But in the villages around Bharatpur there is a shortage of girls to marry, and the custom is for the boy's family to pay the girl's family a large lump sum before the wedding can take place.
Possibly because the money comes from prostitution, and because any granddaughters will be destined for the trade, the sums are high.
Ritu and Manju paid for four of their five brothers to marry, and now support their sisters-in-law, nieces and nephews.
They earn between 1,000 and 1,500 rupees a day. It was more before the government knocked down their shelters to make room for the highway.
"We need a shelter by the road," they said. "Tell the government to build us somewhere we can work. We used to have 25 or 30 clients a day, now the average is 10 or 15." They said they were able to keep their rates up because they could provide a nice room and running water for their clients, who are mostly married businessmen from Agra.
The prevalence of caste-based prostitution in certain tribes in the region - the Bawaria, Nuts, Bedias, Kanjars and Sansis - came to light after a raid on a brothel in Delhi. Now an attempt is being made to break the cycle by which the girls of each generation enter the trade.
Dr KK Mukerjee, a social work professor at the University of Delhi, who was commissioned by the government to research the scope of prostitution, has founded a group, known as GNK. Supported by Plan International, a child-centred community development agency, the organisation has set up a hostel to look after prostitutes' children.
Many of the women said they did not wish their daughters to follow them into the trade. Ritu and Manju each have a daughter, whose fathers were clients. "My daughter will get educated, and not enter this profession," said Ritu. "I have seen what it is like. I don't want it for her."
A young boy at the hostel told proudly how he had persuaded his grandmother not to push his aunt into prostitution. "My grandmother said that she would kill herself if my aunt did not go into the trade and earn money," he said. "But I persuaded her, and my aunt got married."
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Posted: Monday, April 14, 2008 | PermalinkComments 151 - 200 of 223 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers152. Comment #161077 by dloubet on April 14, 2008 at 6:51 pm
Ok, here's a rational argument against multiculturalism: Survival.The more brains we have working on problems, the more problems get solved. If one of those children condemned by their culture to be nothing more than a prostitute could instead have a real choice as to her future, perhaps she would be the one to cure cancer, or negotiate a peace treaty, or save the fucking whales.
When a culture robs the human race of brain power, it's objectively working against the furtherance of the human race.
Screw multiculturalism.
Other Comments by dloubet
153. Comment #161078 by Diacanu on April 14, 2008 at 6:54 pm
Son.of.God-
I want to be a whore.
Of the ass?
Other Comments by Diacanu
154. Comment #161079 by Cartomancer on April 14, 2008 at 6:58 pm
Now now Diacanu, lets not be discriminating unnecessarily between the various services offered by, er, individuals of negotiable affection... Other Comments by Cartomancer
155. Comment #161080 by Diacanu on April 14, 2008 at 7:14 pm
Cartomancer-Well, it makes a big difference.
An ass whore takes the submissive role, making them the slave.
Western morality is based on this.
Nee-chee blames this on gay jews.
Other Comments by Diacanu
156. Comment #161081 by MPhil on April 14, 2008 at 7:16 pm
Groan - are people really still on about the values thing?I know I do this every time, but I recommend reading "Ethics - Inventing Right and Wrong".
Evidence and logic make a very strong case against non interest relative, intrinsical, objective moral values. But some moral values are close to being universally shared - there is intersubjectivity of statements about moral values. While statements about moral values as implying objectivity are wrong - ethics and political philosophy is still possible.
Furthermore, given a shared goal (such as a stable society), imperatives can be derived - we can derive the necessary conditions for erecting and maintaining a society we are prepared to call just. Consequentialism in ethics is absolutely possible and can be totally coherent.
Nihilism fails to see these most basic truths.
Other Comments by MPhil
157. Comment #161083 by Radesq on April 14, 2008 at 7:18 pm
"Two of her sisters, Ritu, 35, and Manju, 25, have built one of the few stone houses in their village, for which they paid the equivalent of £14,600...""The normal rate is 100 rupees (£1.30)"
*shudder*
Other Comments by Radesq
158. Comment #161085 by Cartomancer on April 14, 2008 at 7:21 pm
An ass whore takes the submissive role, making them the slave.You've clearly never met some of the people I have...
Other Comments by Cartomancer
159. Comment #161086 by Layla Nasreddin on April 14, 2008 at 7:24 pm
I've seen a documentary on this same subject, Indian girls being forced into prostitution because it's "the family business," called Highway Courtesans. It was really disturbing, to say the least, and all the more so because you could see it all happening on screen--these are real people trapped in this, not just names.
Unfortunately, the caste system and misogyny have proven very difficult to eradicate in India, especially with the overwhelming presence of grinding poverty (and one might say, the intense religiosity of the populace that leads far too many of them to just accept it all).
Other Comments by Layla Nasreddin
160. Comment #161090 by TuftedPuffin on April 14, 2008 at 7:28 pm
Henri B.:Ok, for the purposes of this discussion, we can agree: absolute moral truths do not exist. Moral statements are not statements of fact, but merely exhortations.
We desire to make and practice exhortations against the behavior described in this article. You may in turn either exhort us not to do so, or criticize the content of our exhortations, _as exhortations_. You will fail.
Good day.
Other Comments by TuftedPuffin
161. Comment #161093 by Diacanu on April 14, 2008 at 7:36 pm
Cartomancer-
You've clearly never met some of the people I have...
You calling Nee-Chee a liar!?!?
I've read Nee-Chee, thereore I'm a genius!!
I'll show you, I'll put a skull in some kind of red amber to show how badass I am too!!
Other Comments by Diacanu
162. Comment #161097 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 7:43 pm
I recall the same sort of thing in Syria (young girls forced into prostitution, not nihilism). They were called the gypsies, but I guess bedouins would be close - I don't know - tents and stuff, with trucks parked out by the side. Some of the western workers went there. One was orally pleasured by some young girl while the father (?) got tea ready for the other waiting guests.Of course, while all this is going on, people are debating morality and whether or not it exists as such and whether or not athiesm gives one carte blanche to turn ones nose up at established societal life.
Funny old world...
Other Comments by Goldy
163. Comment #161100 by Diacanu on April 14, 2008 at 7:46 pm
Goldy-
Funny old world...
Indeed...
Other Comments by Diacanu
164. Comment #161103 by Radesq on April 14, 2008 at 7:52 pm
Goldy "bedouins would be close" bedyoungins sounds closer. Other Comments by Radesq
165. Comment #161106 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 8:02 pm
Goldy "bedouins would be close" bedyoungins sounds closer.
Wry smile :-)
Still doesn't take that feeling of discomfort from me. I felt a bit sad reading this story. Wonder how I would have felt actually being there, seeing these young things all dolled up. Wonder how the men looking at them feel, knowing (probably) what they're thinking. I'm sure some of them are fathers, probably of girls who are probably the same age as the younger "prostitutes". They're probably very good fathers too...
But these young girls were born into the wrong caste/tribe/socio-economic group. Doesn't religion have a part to play in all this. I'll accept they help out, but they also caused the whole mess...
People left Africa millenia ago for this?
Other Comments by Goldy
166. Comment #161112 by Bigorra on April 14, 2008 at 8:20 pm
A young boy at the hostel told proudly how he had persuaded his grandmother not to push his aunt into prostitution. "My grandmother said that she would kill herself if my aunt did not go into the trade and earn money," he said. "But I persuaded her, and my aunt got married."
And a child shall lead them.
Other Comments by Bigorra
167. Comment #161114 by mrgoodjob on April 14, 2008 at 8:29 pm
Cultural Relativism at its finest I suppose.Other Comments by mrgoodjob
168. Comment #161117 by Christopher Davis on April 14, 2008 at 8:41 pm
Hate that I got in on this late.
Henri Bergson, you told Steve Zara that he was "no academic". One of the definitions of 'academic' is..."of no practical value".
And in that sense, your arguments are certainly academic.
I'm not saying that to be a total smart-ass, I truly mean they have no practical value. While the soundness of your logic is difficult to refute, I believe human beings have an innate drive to be autonomous...as well as happy. What I consider to be a "human rights violation" is when one group's innate drive to be autonomous is subjugated to another groups drive to be happy.
I freely admit that this is a subjective view. But I also believe that if the people who are doing the subjugating suddenly found the shoe on the other foot, they would feel like their rights were being violated.
Situations like the one described in this story are perfect fodder for invigorating philosophical discussions, and as I said, academically your position is strong. Unfortunately, your arguments display exactly the kind of detached, disregard for the rights of others that atheist-bashers so often accuse us of.
We might just be animals, but we are human animals. As such, we have the ability to contemplate not only our feelings and emotions, but the feelings and emotions of others. That's where our (atheists) moral code comes from...respect for others, not some imaginary sky-god. It's the Golden Rule, simple as that.
I've got a couple more thoughts on this, but I've got to catch a plane. I'll try to get back later.
Other Comments by Christopher Davis
169. Comment #161128 by Mitchell Gilks on April 14, 2008 at 9:27 pm
Groan - are people really still on about the values thing?
I know I do this every time, but I recommend reading "Ethics - Inventing Right and Wrong".
Evidence and logic make a very strong case against non interest relative, intrinsical, objective moral values. But some moral values are close to being universally shared - there is intersubjectivity of statements about moral values. While statements about moral values as implying objectivity are wrong - ethics and political philosophy is still possible.
Furthermore, given a shared goal (such as a stable society), imperatives can be derived - we can derive the necessary conditions for erecting and maintaining a society we are prepared to call just. Consequentialism in ethics is absolutely possible and can be totally coherent.
Nihilism fails to see these most basic truths.
MPhil, I would have liked to see you get here sooner. I agree with the above completely. I haven't read the book that you mention. I will add it to the list of books I plan to get through eventually. Though, it is a large list.
I'm rather inept in discussing the works of philosophers, as I have no more than an extremely superficial understanding of them. Though, I felt that Nietzsche was by no means a nihlist, and took the position that only the weak minded succum to nihlism after loosing their faith in absolute moral dictates, and "mourned the death of god" as it were because he felt this would be the reaction of the general public. Though I have not actually read Nietzsche, so I didn't feel I was in a position to comment. Is this not the case?
Ethical philosophy interests me the most. I find it troubling that a meaningful discourse is not being persued about ethics and morality, because it appears to me that one large percentage of people are absolutist, and don't think it makes sense to discuss it, because they already know what to do, it has been dictated to them. Then another large percentage think that it is arbitrary and relative, and thus also doesn't make sense to discuss. While I see no reason why it can't be treated like a system of logic. I see no reason why moral decisions cannot follow from our collective interests, and values, as a culture, as a people, as a species, and ultimately as living things.
Other Comments by Mitchell Gilks
170. Comment #161133 by MPhil on April 14, 2008 at 10:21 pm
I will add it to the list of books I plan to get through eventually. Though, it is a large list.
Tell me about it... you do not want to know how many books I "plan on buying/reading/finishing"... one lifetime isn't enough... :)
But while you're at it, add John Ralws "Theory of Justice" as well. Absolutely brilliant (so are his other works).
Though, I felt that Nietzsche was by no means a nihlist,
Quite true - he wasn't.
and took the position that only the weak minded succum to nihlism after loosing their faith in absolute moral dictates.
Not exactly. Nietzsche thought that mankind is only a rope tied between animal and superman - and to cross the "abyss" over which the rope is tied, one first has to abandon all values, even the most basic and essential ones - to make oneself completely free. Only then can one look at the world as it is - and reevaluate all values - erect new ones.
Nihilism to Nietzsche thus was a stage, a step on a ladder - something to be overcome.
Ethical philosophy interests me the most.
I used to feel the same way - especially metaethics is highly interesting. But after reading Mackie, this has shifted a bit. Since I think he's right - that means that there are no metaphysical ethical truths to be discovered. However, that does not mean that the study of ethics is now useless - as the brilliant work "Ethics and the Limits of Philosophy" by Bernard Williams shows by example.
I find the most fascinating subject to be philosophy of mind - as it addresses what I find to be the most fundamental meaningful questions that can be investigated.
When it comes to ethics - the most interesting question to me is that of a just and stable society... and I find no one has addressed this more rigorously than John Rawls. I don't agree with everything he writes (I don't know of any philosopher with whom I agree 100%). He has produced an idea for investigating the question of what the principles of society should be... the "original position" - using this to determine the principles, the structure of society is one of the most striking ideas I have ever encountered.
(see: http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/original-position/)
I find it troubling that a meaningful discourse is not being persued about ethics and morality, because it appears to me that one large percentage of people are absolutist, and don't think it makes sense to discuss it, because they already know what to do, it has been dictated to them. Then another large percentage think that it is arbitrary and relative, and thus also doesn't make sense to discuss.
I think a very large part of the people on this planet either don't have the leisure to reflect philosophically about ethics - they're busy trying to stay alive.
Then there's the naively religious who just think it's all answered, absolute and final...
Then there's the huge part who just goes about their lives not reflecting much on anything - (probably also a large proportion of the people who would call themselves religious)
While I see no reason why it can't be treated like a system of logic. I see no reason why moral decisions cannot follow from our collective interests, and values, as a culture, as a people, as a species, and ultimately as living things.
Well, you gotta be careful not to commit the naturalistic fallacy - but yes, I think ethical decisions can and should be made logically - while taking into account facts about emotions, society, ecology - facts about living and living as human beings in a (specific) society.
So, today's recommendations for the reading list:
-Ethics - Inventing Right and Wrong (John Leslie Mackie - his "The Miracle of Theism" is also probably the most wonderful book arguing against theism)
- A Theory of Justice (John Ralws)
Gotta try to catch at least an hour of sleep now - have to be at university in 3 hours... :/
Other Comments by MPhil
171. Comment #161147 by Corylus on April 15, 2008 at 12:05 am
[Wakes up] I'm going to be grouchy all day now because I didn't get my full nine hours. Hope you're proud of yourself Henri...
Arh, I see Mphil has dealt: good.
Other Comments by Corylus
172. Comment #161152 by Quetzalcoatl on April 15, 2008 at 12:51 am
Geoff-
Out by 2 hours, Quetz? You're slipping!
Not at all. My TOD prediction related to Artful Dodger, so it was correct. Do not question your god.
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
173. Comment #161200 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 2:58 am
23. Comment #160844 by Henri Bergson -Henri dribbles and pools of saliva puddle on the page.
You commentators here are being very naive: you cannot judge another culture from your own culture's perspective.
'Human rights' is just a western notion that, like 'God', cannot be proven.
In other words, you're all acting like frenzied religious nutcases pushing your unjustified perspective on others.
Slave trade in the Congo - no problem, it's just their way.
Femal genital mutilation in muslim communities - well, that's their culture, none of our business, not our problem.
Henri, regrettably, appears have forgetten which end of the body he is supposed to speak from and has chosen the wrong one by mistake - or design.
Yet again, you show what a prick you are.
"No man is an island, entire of itself. Ask not for whom the bell tolls; it tolls for thee." - John Donne
Other Comments by irate_atheist
174. Comment #161274 by Geoff on April 15, 2008 at 5:06 am
Apologies, Quetz, I thought you meant Henri.Have some tea?
Other Comments by Geoff
175. Comment #161275 by Bonzai on April 15, 2008 at 5:16 am
Did Henri Bergson study philosophy because he is a prick, or did he become a prick for studying philosophy? Or is it just coincidental that he happens to be a philosopher and a prick?The philosopher-prick is a deadly combination.
Other Comments by Bonzai
176. Comment #161293 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 6:04 am
175. Comment #161275 by Bonzai -
Swift application of Occam's razor reveals that, quite simply, Henri is a prick. Anything else just adds superfluously to the length of his member.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
177. Comment #161294 by AmericanGodless on April 15, 2008 at 6:05 am
H.B. says:[A]ssertions of fact can be proven; assertions of value cannot. So therefore I can judge others' assertions of value to be meaningless whereas you cannot judge my assertions of fact as being so.
Wrong. A philosopher H.B may (or may not) be. A scientist, he is not. In science, an assertion of "fact" can always be questioned. As I said before, his philosophy is a holdover from a time when the only truth that was valued was that which pretended to be absolute. An assertion of fact can be defended as being highly probable and consistent within a particular context of prior well-established knowledge. An assertion of value can be defended as highly probable to be consistent within the context of a collection of values held by a given moral community. Neither is immune from the critical charge of being ultimately meaningless.
All meaning, that of fact or value, is subjective, or as I would prefer to put it, local, not cosmic. We establish our point of view. We try to share it with others and form a community, moral or scientific. H.B has (or pretends to have) no point of view, and just gets his kicks from trying to trash that of others. He fails.
Other Comments by AmericanGodless
178. Comment #161298 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 6:21 am
177. Comment #161294 by AmericanGodless -
The fact that E=mc^2 does not depend upon your 'cultural context'.
Pv=nRT does not depend on your location.
An assertion of value can be defended as highly probable to be consistent within the context of a collection of values held by a given moral community.This is, I'm afraid, post-modernist drivel.
Show me a cultural relativist at 30,000 feet and I'll show you a hypocrite.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
179. Comment #161304 by Steve Zara on April 15, 2008 at 6:26 am
Comment #161294 by AmericanGodless All meaning, that of fact or value, is subjective, or as I would prefer to put it, local, not cosmic.
Fascinating. I guess the fact that we can look back throught the Lyman-alpha absorption band of hydrogen and see that the laws of physics were the same billions of years ago must be simply cultural.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
180. Comment #161316 by Peacebeuponme on April 15, 2008 at 6:50 am
irate_atheistSwift application of Occam's razor reveals that, quite simply, Henri is a prick. Anything else just adds superfluously to the length of his member.Henri just enjoys turning the key. Don't rise to it.
I think we could actually have a new unit of measurement called the 'Henri' used to measure unfounded arrogance. e.g. "Scooternyc's last comment was easily 0.8 Henris"
Other Comments by Peacebeuponme
181. Comment #161326 by Bonzai on April 15, 2008 at 7:05 am
PBUMI don't know, I think scooternyc deserves a unit for himself. While henri is a (philosopher) prick, scooternyc is an arse hole so the units are not really convertible.
To the family readership of rd.net. I am NOT talking sex, OK?!
Other Comments by Bonzai
182. Comment #161347 by Mitchell Gilks on April 15, 2008 at 7:38 am
Henri is by no means a philosopher. He clearly didn't know what he was talking about in any case. He did what a hell of a lot of morons do, he read some snippits here and there, and then took what he wanted to get out of it. Regardless of what it actually said.
He then went on to argue a point no one really disagrees with, and then claiming he has thus proven a conclusion that is a complete non sequitur, (.i.e. values and meaning isn't absolute and objection, therefore value and meaning don't exist, and are fictions.) while ignoring the way they are meaningfully used.
This is what nilhists always do, they start with a dozen or so unjustified, and unvoiced assumptions, mainly that only absolutes matter, and that meaning and value only matter if they are objective. They then argue that they are not, which they won't find much disagreement with, then they declare they conclusion of the valuelessness of existence, and meaninglessness of life, and call you illogical and irrational for not accepting their fallacious argument. All the while not making the same assumptions about the human contructs that also aren't absolute and removed from people's interpretations and opinions that they attempt to employ to prove their point.
All they are is theologians that don't believe in god. They act as if god has just disappeared and now we're fucked. Without ever considering that most of us (at least the rational ones) never considered a theological mode of thought meaningfully reflective of reality in the first place.
To put it simply, they are absolutists, that don't believe in absolutes.
Other Comments by Mitchell Gilks
183. Comment #161348 by wendelin on April 15, 2008 at 7:38 am
I'm actually with Henri on this... to a ccertain extent. No moral relativism for me: anybody forced to live a life not of their choosing is an abomination, women (or anyone else) enjoying fewer rights than others is an outrage, female infanticide is horrible.However, the idea that having sex with a consenting 13 year old girl is "child abuse" is definitely arguable. Sexual maturity is biological, and happens way earlier than the culturally/legally mandated 18 years. To look down upon other cultures that consider biological sexual maturity as the only marker for when a girl is ready to have sex is elitist and racist.
Also, in this article (I say again, IN THIS ARTICLE), I see no evidence of women being deprived of their rights, or being forced into this trade against their will. On the contrary, they are empowered by their capacity to earn a good living and provide for themselves and their families. They aren't subservient to pimps or madams, they run their own lives and control their own destinies. Kudos to them, I say. To consider prostitution abominable in itself betrays a distinctly Judeo-Christian prudishness; to think that all prostitutes are downtrodden or in need of rescue is evidence of a western-supremacist mindset.
As long as these women are free to do as they wish, as long as they are earning enough money to take care of themselves and their health (as they clearly seem to be doing), what is the problem?
Other Comments by wendelin
184. Comment #161354 by AKirkland on April 15, 2008 at 7:45 am
There isn't really much I can say about this that hasn't been said, but it has further convinced me that I don't give a toss if some cultural traditions sod off and die.And do you ever wish you'd joined in on a conversation much earlier in a thread? There was a (bit of a troll) bloke earlier who was arguing some of the most frustratingly flawed semi-philosophical stuff earlier and I wish I'd had a chance to rebut him, but the moment appears to have passed.
Edit: Henri, that was the name. The moment may have passed, but here I go anyway: His "replace human rights with Christianity to see the fallacy" argument was total rubbish, because there is actually biological evidence for a common basis to at least some areas of human morality (and morality of other species too). If we try to abstract above the biological base and establish a system of rights based upon common consensus then why is that not (far) more valid than the leap of faith of religion?
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185. Comment #161357 by Bonzai on April 15, 2008 at 7:53 am
Henri is by no means a philosopher
I think he did say he is a philosophy professor, so in a professional sense at least, he is a philosopher.
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186. Comment #161360 by Mitchell Gilks on April 15, 2008 at 7:59 am
I have a problem with the poverty of the place making such an occupation almost necessary. I have a problem with the preasure, and the lack of other options. I have a problem with the patron's of ones family coaching, and driving young girls into such a occupation, which therefore is not their own decision. I also agree that contractual work requires a certain degree of intellectual maturity. The legal age of consent is not 18 (except for homosexuals) in any place I know of, it is 14 in canada, and I am pretty sure it varies between states in the US but it about the same. While the legal age to enter any contract is 18, for intellectually reasons, and I agree with this.
That aside, I don't personally have a problem with prostitution in principle, I don't think it should be illegal either, which does nothing more than promote extortion, crime and disease where it need not be.
My problem with this is not the prostitution aspect (the call of racism is just pathetic, and stupid. Surely you don't think posters here would be ok if people of their own ethnicity were doing it? Or that they don't think that they ever have done it? I think you are wrong in both cases if you do) it is the far more complex elements. In my opinion, this is no different than selling her off as a wife.
I'm not going to voice a huge outrage (and this is my first address to the article) because it is perfectly possible that her life would be worse if she didn't before a prostitute. Her only other perhaps somewhat better options would be to be sold to someone permanently. I think there are far more important things to address then there culture, which I think has little to do with it. Durring the depression a large amount of people in several particularly effected countries, quickly turned to doing quite similar things. As they would surely again if we were put in their position. I don't think that many disagree that it is not good, but they don't have very many options. I am by no means excusing them of doing what they are doing, but it is to be expected of people in their situation, and many deplorible things are in certain situations. These are problems caused by poverty, and conditions, not cultures.
Other Comments by Mitchell Gilks
187. Comment #161366 by Mitchell Gilks on April 15, 2008 at 8:06 am
I think he did say he is a philosophy professor, so in a professional sense at least, he is a philosopher.
He might have said it, but I highly doubt it. I have an extremely limited knowledge of philosophy, and even I knew many of the people he quoted don't agree with him.
I frequent a philosophy forum, which does have several professional philosophers. It is not hard to tell when someone is knowledgable in philosophy, and when they aren't.
Other Comments by Mitchell Gilks
188. Comment #161367 by Bonzai on April 15, 2008 at 8:09 am
I have a problem with the poverty of the place making such an occupation almost necessary. I have a problem with the preasure, and the lack of other options. I have a problem with the patron's of ones family coaching, and driving young girls into such a occupation, which therefore is not their own decision
Well you nail it. I was going to write something like that but I need some time to organize my thinking properly.
I don't want to sound like I am agreeing with Henri, which I am not, But I think it is naive to think that choices and morality is context independent. Is it a lot more immoral to sell your daughter into prostitution than to arrange her to marry for wealth, or let her work in a sweatshop making cheap stuffs for the West?
I think in a way we do tend to see things through our own circumstances without realizing it. What happens is of course evil, but is it more evil than other things they have to endure because of
their circumstances?
Other Comments by Bonzai
189. Comment #161373 by Ygern on April 15, 2008 at 8:16 am
Wendelin,You're making it sound a little easy. This 13 year old may well accept this as normal. That doesn't mean she has had the opportunity to make an informed decision for herself, or that she has any other real options.
If you would like some more info on the issue take a look at some of these links
http://gvnet.com/childprostitution/India.htm
http://www.uri.edu/artsci/wms/hughes/india.htm
http://www.street-children.com/pages/uk/experiences_inde.asp
http://www.jubileeaction.co.uk/reports/CHILD PROSTITUTION IN INDIA.pdf
There is no circumstance where an under-age girl has to consider selling her body should be regarded as acceptable or justifiable.
Other Comments by Ygern
190. Comment #161379 by Christopher Davis on April 15, 2008 at 8:22 am
I wanted to make another comment or two regarding Henri B's remarks, but I think Mitchell Gilks has addressed most of my points already.
"As long as these women are free to do as they wish, as long as they are earning enough money to take care of themselves and their health (as they clearly seem to be doing), what is the problem?"---wendelin
Actually Mitchell adressed this too, I just wanted to agree. What makes me uneasy is not that the girls are prostitutes, it's the fact that they are so young and have so few options. No matter what they do, their life is going to be spent being instrumentalized (I think that's a word). Just because a person can't see the bars doesn't mean they are not in prison.
Other Comments by Christopher Davis
191. Comment #161382 by irate_atheist on April 15, 2008 at 8:24 am
183. Comment #161348 by wendelin -
Complete fucking bollocks.
To quote al-rawandi - 'ass clown'.
Other Comments by irate_atheist
192. Comment #161461 by Geoff on April 15, 2008 at 10:15 am
176. Comment #161293 by irate_atheist Swift application of Occam's razor reveals that, quite simply, Henri is a prick. Anything else just adds superfluously to the length of his member.
That, sir, is a quite splendid metaphor. When one considers the juxtaposition of razor and prick, one cannot help but think of circumcision, and which part would be better discarded.
Other Comments by Geoff
193. Comment #161471 by Diacanu on April 15, 2008 at 10:28 am
Bonzai-
I think he did say he is a philosophy professor,
Ouch, those poor fucking students.
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194. Comment #161481 by kaiserkriss on April 15, 2008 at 10:38 am
Ouch, those poor fucking students
Yup, I agree. I'd fail his course miserably.jcw
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195. Comment #161556 by Diocletian on April 15, 2008 at 12:05 pm
bidding war is being held for the right to be the first to sleep with her
What the article should have stated instead is '...the right to be the first to rape her'.
Mr. Bergson is once again showing his ignorance. Morality is not a delusion because humans have the capacity to develop moral codes of conduct. What the basis of those moral codes should be based on is our acquired knowledge. For example, the biological and psychological evidence suggests that forcing any child, woman or man to have sex is harmful. This is not a cultural issue, because a wealthy family who would sell their daughter to a prostitution ring would face scorn and shame. However, even if it WERE a purely cultural issue it does not in any way negate the harm inflicted upon the individual. This is the basis on which intelligent, reasonable people judge moral conduct.
Dear dear Henri, this is why the world condemned the Nazis for what they did to Jews, Gypsies, homosexuals and political dissidents. Even though culturally these groups had been hated for centuries - thus was part of the European culture... it was still immoral to slaughter millions of people.
Thank goodness that there are fewer and fewer people the likes of Mr. Bergson and more people who feel that humans have an obligation toward other human and non-humams precisely because there is not a god to oversee our behaviours and reward or punish us.
Other Comments by Diocletian
196. Comment #161563 by Corylus on April 15, 2008 at 12:10 pm
I think he did say that he is a philosophy professor, so in a professional sense at least, he is a philosopherNah, he didn't say he was a professor - he said he taught philosophy. For all we know he is teaching it at GCSE (16 year old) level at a sports academy in Slough.
Trouble is he is both right and wrong.
Right because:
a) you cannot get an ought from an is.
b) there is a difference between descriptive and prescriptive statements.
c) Objective moral truths do not exist (or, at the very least, if they do there is no way we can have privileged access to them)*
Wrong because:
a) There is a difference between metaethics (which is what he was discussing aka abstract stuff) and applied ethics (what most people on here were talking about aka real life decisions about real people). It's all very well throwing fancy philosophical terms like 'normative' about, and talking about different types of 'statements'. In real life though, you simply have to make judgement calls. Sometimes you just have to say "that sucks: stop it".
b) This brings me to my next point, yes, moral judgements are emotional and often irrational and ... pauses for breath.... sodding good job too . We make moral judgements in light of trying to maximise happiness and minimise harm, if we take emotion out of the equation with a sneer and snide reference to slave morality then what are you left with? Complete relativism? ... f*&k me... ethical egoism?? (Priggish Kantism is one way out of this, but it doesn't float my boat).
It is possible to be aware that making moral judgements on the basis of the 'yuk factor' alone is generally a bad plan, but at the same time taking into account emotional experience.
Because if you ignore emotional experience then you cannot quantify 'happiness' or 'harm' in any realistic fashion; making the whole business a monumental waste of time.
c) Also, [whispers behind hand] those distinctions that philosophers make, you know, those uncrossable lines in the sand, like fact/value or analytic/synthetic... not as clear cut as some make out...
*I am aware the many people, would disagree on this one, but I am putting my personal cards on the table here.
P.S. Bonzai, sweetie, some people manage to study philosophy and still retain their sunny dispositions... just saying :-)
Other Comments by Corylus
197. Comment #161566 by bitbutter on April 15, 2008 at 12:11 pm
I didn't read all the comments. But I wondered if Henri noticed: The idea that the outlook of a particular culture is no better or worse than that of any other, is itself the result of a particular cultural perspective. So why should we privilege it? Other Comments by bitbutter
198. Comment #161705 by Michael King on April 15, 2008 at 2:16 pm
Comment #160844 by Henri Bergsonyou cannot judge another culture from your own culture's perspective.
Comment #161019 by Henri Bergson
Why don't you finish that fat yank peanut butter sandwich...?
An own goal...
Other Comments by Michael King
199. Comment #161797 by AmericanGodless on April 15, 2008 at 5:23 pm
I am disappointed to see that the myth of science as absolute knowledge is alive and well in this forum.irate_atheist:
Do you really think that just because E=mc^2 works so well here in our local back yard, that it is utterly impossible that some eventual TOE might find a flaw in it? Pv=nRT? What part of the word "ideal" do you not understand? Show me someone who understands the limitations of human certainty at 30,000 feet and I'll show you someone who will insist on aircraft inspections.
Steve Zara:
I guess the fact that we can look back throught the Lyman-alpha absorption band of hydrogen and see that the laws of physics were the same billions of years ago must be simply cultural.
Yes, indeed, that fact is local to the part of the universe that is currently observable. You may also be able to extrapolate that fact to apply in some probable manner to some of the non-observable portion of the universe, but you will need to show that your hypothesis is consistent with a lot more "facts" to do so. And are you sure that it applied when the universe was so young that the hydrogen atom was not yet stable? And, in any case, the human knowledge of such facts is limited to the locality of this planet, and is quite fallible.
It is not "post-modernist drivel" to acknowledge the fallibility of all human knowledge. I learned it from Jacob Bronowski 30 years ago, and more recently from philosphers Patricia and Paul Churchland, and it is also what I have learned from 40 years of doing and watching science.
Do you guys really think that all the scientific knowledge we have today is just as certain as the fact that the world is round? Well, you are right -- except that the world isn't round. "Round" is an ideal mathematical description, which the world fits to a better approximation than it does to "flat." But the world is an oblate spheroid: the diameter at the equator is about 26 miles greater than the diameter taken pole to pole, giving a deviation from sphericity of about 3.3 parts per thousand, almost four times the permitted tolerance allowed for a Brunswick billiard ball. But an ellipsoid is not quite right either. It's more pear shaped, slightly more plump in the southern hemisphere. The geodesic datum has been measured to a precision of about one meter last I checked (probably better now), and modeled in some places to about 10 cm. But we could wish to have even better numbers, because it would allow better calculation of ocean heat content and currents when combined with satillite sea height measurements (which are good to about 5 cm). But human knowledge is approximate. Scientists invest their efforts to do what can be done to improve it, not to pretend that it is perfect as it is.
Those "defenders" of science who take it out of context and fail to recognize the limitations that apply to science and all other claims to human knowledge, do it no favors. Those who would like to deny the greater value of science over faith are happy to point out cases where scientists have made overblown and overconfident statements, and love to use those examples to support their claim that science is "just another faith system."
Scientific knowledge, Bronowski said "is a tribute to what we can know although we are fallible." Only by recognizing and embracing the approximate and at best probabilistic nature of all human knowledge do we have a chance to build a world culture, local in time and space, that can combine the knowledge and ethics and morality that will be required to let us survive this century with our civilization intact. Or would you prefer to leave it to religious dogma, or HB's nihilism?
Other Comments by AmericanGodless
200. Comment #161801 by Steve Zara on April 15, 2008 at 5:35 pm
Yes, indeed, that fact is local to the part of the universe that is currently observable. You may also be able to extrapolate that fact to apply in some probable manner to some of the non-observable portion of the universe, but you will need to show that your hypothesis is consistent with a lot more "facts" to do so. And it is not too likely that it applied when the universe was so young that the hydrogen atom was not yet stable. And, in any case, the human knowledge of such facts is limited to the locality of this planet, and is quite fallible.
No, this is nonsense. We can look back pretty much to the origin of the universe optically. This is not some local area of the universe - it is virtually all the universe back to within 400,000 years of its origin.
The statement "The hydrogen atom was not yet stable" is, I am sorry to say, utter gibberish - it contradicts everything we know and can observe about chemistry and quantum mechanics. We can predict with considerable precision the nature of the big bang, and its production of hydrogen and helium based on our current theories. These require that our current understanding of quantum mechanics is correct, and the properties of the big bang have been validated by experiment. Perhaps you would like to explain how you came up with the idea of an "unstable hydrogen atom"?
Do you guys really think that all the scientific knowledge we have today is just as certain as the fact that the world is round?
This is a very silly straw man argument. No-one claims that the world is a "perfect sphere".
It is not "post-modernist drivel" to acknowledge the fallibility of all human knowledge. I learned it from Jacob Bronowski 30 years ago, and more recently from philosphers Patricia and Paul Churchland, and it is also what I have learned from 40 years of doing and watching science.
It is post modernist nonsense to force relativisim where there is none.
Our theories are approximate, and they get refined, but that does not mean they are simply a matter of subjective point of view. The speed of light is not subjective, for example. The infinitude of primes is not subjective. The second law of thermodynamics is not subjective.
You are wildly distorting the message of Bronowski - a particular hero of mine, and that annoys me.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
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151. Comment #161076 by Goldy on April 14, 2008 at 6:50 pm
Ummm, that's a constructive comment!Other Comments by Goldy