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Monday, May 5, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Losing Our Spines to Save Our Necks

by Sam Harris

Reposted from:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/sam-harris/losing-our-spines-to-save_b_100132.html

Geert Wilders, conservative Dutch politician and provocateur, has become the latest projectile in the world's most important culture war: the zero-sum conflict between civil society and traditional Islam. Wilders, who lives under perpetual armed guard due to death threats, recently released a 15 minute film entitled Fitna ("strife" in Arabic) over the internet. The film has been deemed offensive because it juxtaposes images of Muslim violence with passages from the Qur'an. Given that the perpetrators of such violence regularly cite these same passages as justification for their actions, merely depicting this connection in a film would seem uncontroversial. Controversial or not, one surely would expect politicians and journalists in every free society to strenuously defend Wilders' right to make such a film. But then one would be living on another planet, a planet where people do not happily repudiate their most basic freedoms in the name of "religious sensitivity."

Witness the free world's response to Fitna: The Dutch government sought to ban the film outright, and European Union foreign ministers publicly condemned it, as did UN Secretary-General Ban Ki-moon. Dutch television refused to air Fitna unedited. When Wilders declared his intention to release the film over the internet, his U.S. web-host, Network Solutions, took his website offline.

Into the breach stepped Liveleak, a British video-sharing website, which finally aired the film on March 27th. It received over 3 million views in the first 24 hours. The next day, however, Liveleak removed Fitna from its servers, having been terrorized into self-censorship by threats to its staff. But the film had spread too far on the internet to be suppressed (and Liveleak, after taking further security measures, has since reinstated it on its site as well).

Of course, there were immediate calls for a boycott of Dutch products throughout the Muslim world. In response, Dutch corporations placed ads in countries like Indonesia, denouncing the film in self-defense. Several Muslim countries blocked YouTube and other video-sharing sites in an effort to keep Wilders' blasphemy from penetrating the minds of their citizens. There have also been isolated protests and attacks on embassies, and ubiquitous demands for Wilders' murder. In Afghanistan, women in burqas could be seen burning the Dutch flag; the Taliban carried out at least two revenge attacks on Dutch troops, resulting in five Dutch casualties; and security concerns have caused the Netherlands to close its embassy in Kabul. It must be said, however, that nothing has yet occurred to rival the ferocious response to the Danish cartoons.

Meanwhile Kurt Westergaard, one of the Danish cartoonists, threatened to sue Wilders for copyright infringement, as Wilders used his drawing of a bomb-laden Muhammad without permission. Westergaard has lived in hiding since 2006 due to death threats of his own, so the Danish Union of Journalists volunteered to file this lawsuit on his behalf. Admittedly, there is something amusing about one hunted man, unable to venture out in public for fear of being killed by religious lunatics, threatening to sue another man in the same predicament over a copyright violation. But it is understandable that Westergaard wouldn't want to be repeatedly hurled at the enemy without his consent. Westergaard is an extraordinarily courageous man whose life has been ruined both by religious fanaticism and the free world's submission to it. In February, the Danish government arrested three Muslims who seemed poised to murder him. Other Danes unfortunate enough to have been born with the name "Kurt Westergaard" have had to take steps to escape being murdered in his place. (Wilder's has since removed the cartoon from the official version of Fitna.)

Wilders, like Westergaard and the other Danish cartoonists, has been widely vilified for "seeking to inflame" the Muslim community. Even if this had been his intention, this criticism represents an almost supernatural coincidence of moral blindness and political imprudence. The point is not (and will never be) that some free person spoke, or wrote, or illustrated in such a manner as to inflame the Muslim community. The point is that only the Muslim community is combustible in this way. The controversy over Fitna, like all such controversies, renders one fact about our world especially salient: Muslims appear to be far more concerned about perceived slights to their religion than about the atrocities committed daily in its name. Our accommodation of this psychopathic skewing of priorities has, more and more, taken the form of craven and blinkered acquiescence.

There is an uncanny irony here that many have noticed. The position of the Muslim community in the face of all provocations seems to be: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we will kill you. Of course, the truth is often more nuanced, but this is about as nuanced as it ever gets: Islam is a religion of peace, and if you say that it isn't, we peaceful Muslims cannot be held responsible for what our less peaceful brothers and sisters do. When they burn your embassies or kidnap and slaughter your journalists, know that we will hold you primarily responsible and will spend the bulk of our energies criticizing you for "racism" and "Islamophobia."

Our capitulations in the face of these threats have had what is often called "a chilling effect" on our exercise of free speech. I have, in my own small way, experienced this chill first hand. First, and most important, my friend and colleague Ayaan Hirsi Ali happens to be among the hunted. Because of the failure of Western governments to make it safe for people to speak openly about the problem of Islam, I and others must raise a mountain of private funds to help pay for her round-the-clock protection. The problem is not, as is often alleged, that governments cannot afford to protect every person who speaks out against Muslim intolerance. The problem is that so few people do speak out. If there were ten thousand Ayaan Hirsi Ali's, the risk to each would be radically reduced.

As for infringements of my own speech, my first book, The End of Faith, almost did not get published for fear of offending the sensibilities of (probably non-reading) religious fanatics. W.W. Norton, which did publish the book, was widely seen as taking a risk--one probably attenuated by the fact that I am an equal-opportunity offender critical of all religious faith. However, when it came time to make final edits to the galleys of The End of Faith, many of the people I had thanked by name in my acknowledgments (including my agent at the time and my editor at Norton) independently asked to have their names removed from the book. Their concerns were explicitly for their personal safety. Given our shamefully ineffectual response to the fatwa against Salman Rushdie, their concerns were perfectly understandable.

Nature, arguably the most influential scientific journal on the planet, recently published a lengthy whitewash of Islam (Z. Sardar "Beyond the troubled relationship." Nature 448, 131-133; 2007). The author began, as though atop a minaret, by simply declaring the religion of Islam to be "intrinsically rational." He then went on to argue, amid a highly idiosyncratic reading of history and theology, that this rational religion's current wallowing in the violent depths of unreason can be fully ascribed to the legacy of colonialism. After some negotiation, Nature also agreed to publish a brief response from me. What readers of my letter to the editor could not know, however, was that it was only published after perfectly factual sentences deemed offensive to Islam were expunged. I understood the editors' concerns at the time: not only did they have Britain's suffocating libel laws to worry about, but Muslim physicians and engineers in the UK had just revealed a penchant for suicide bombing. I was grateful that Nature published my letter at all.

In a thrillingly ironic turn of events, a shorter version of the very essay you are now reading was originally commissioned by the opinion page of Washington Post and then rejected because it was deemed too critical of Islam. Please note, this essay was destined for the opinion page of the paper, which had solicited my response to the controversy over Wilders' film. The irony of its rejection seemed entirely lost on the Post, which responded to my subsequent expression of amazement by offering to pay me a "kill fee." I declined.

I could list other examples of encounters with editors and publishers, as can many writers, all illustrating a single fact: While it remains taboo to criticize religious faith in general, it is considered especially unwise to criticize Islam. Only Muslims hound and hunt and murder their apostates, infidels, and critics in the 21st century. There are, to be sure, reasons why this is so. Some of these reasons have to do with accidents of history and geopolitics, but others can be directly traced to doctrines sanctifying violence which are unique to Islam.

A point of comparison: The controversy of over Fitna was immediately followed by ubiquitous media coverage of a scandal involving the Fundamentalist Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints (FLDS). In Texas, police raided an FLDS compound and took hundreds of women and underage girls into custody to spare them the continued, sacramental predations of their menfolk. While mainstream Mormonism is now granted the deference accorded to all major religions in the United States, its fundamentalist branch, with its commitment to polygamy, spousal abuse, forced marriage, child brides (and, therefore, child rape) is often portrayed in the press as a depraved cult. But one could easily argue that Islam, considered both in the aggregate and in terms of its most negative instances, is far more despicable than fundamentalist Mormonism. The Muslim world can match the FLDS sin for sin--Muslims commonly practice polygamy, forced-marriage (often between underage girls and older men), and wife-beating--but add to these indiscretions the surpassing evils of honor killing, female "circumcision," widespread support for terrorism, a pornographic fascination with videos showing the butchery of infidels and apostates, a vibrant form of anti-semitism that is explicitly genocidal in its aspirations, and an aptitude for producing children's books and television programs which exalt suicide-bombing and depict Jews as "apes and pigs."

Any honest comparison between these two faiths reveals a bizarre double standard in our treatment of religion. We can openly celebrate the marginalization of FLDS men and the rescue of their women and children. But, leaving aside the practical and political impossibility of doing so, could we even allow ourselves to contemplate liberating the women and children of traditional Islam?

What about all the civil, freedom-loving, moderate Muslims who are just as appalled by Muslim intolerance as I am? No doubt millions of men and women fit this description, but vocal moderates are very difficult to find. Wherever "moderate Islam" does announce itself, one often discovers frank Islamism lurking just a euphemism or two beneath the surface. The subterfuge is rendered all but invisible to the general public by political correctness, wishful thinking, and "white guilt." This is where we find sinister people successfully posing as "moderates"--people like Tariq Ramadan who, while lionized by liberal Europeans as the epitome of cosmopolitan Islam, cannot bring himself to actually condemn honor killing in round terms (he recommends that the practice be suspended, pending further study). Moderation is also attributed to groups like the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), an Islamist public relations firm posing as a civil-rights lobby.

Even when one finds a true voice of Muslim moderation, it often seems distinguished by a lack of candor above all things. Take someone like Reza Aslan, author of No God But God: I debated Aslan for Book TV on the general subject of religion and modernity. During the course of our debate, I had a few unkind words to say about the Muslim Brotherhood. While admitting that there is a difference between the Brotherhood and a full-blown jihadist organization like al Qaeda, I said that their ideology was "close enough" to be of concern. Aslan responded with a grandiose, ad hominem attack saying, "that indicates the profound unsophistication that you have about this region. You could not be more wrong" and claiming that I'd taken my view of Islam from "Fox News." Such maneuvers, coming from a polished, Iranian-born scholar of Islam carry the weight of authority, especially in front of an audience of people who are desperate to believe the threat of Islam has been grossly exaggerated. The problem, however, is that the credo of the Muslim Brotherhood actually happens to be "Allah is our objective. The Prophet is our leader. The Qur'an is our law. Jihad is our way. Dying in the way of Allah is our highest hope."

The connection between the doctrine of Islam and Islamist violence is simply not open to dispute. It's not that critics of religion like myself speculate that such a connection might exist: the point is that Islamists themselves acknowledge and demonstrate this connection at every opportunity and to deny it is to retreat within a fantasy world of political correctness and religious apology. Many western scholars, like the much admired Karen Armstrong, appear to live in just such a place. All of their talk about how benign Islam "really" is, and about how the problem of fundamentalism exists in all religions, only obfuscates what may be the most pressing issue of our time: Islam, as it is currently understood and practiced by vast numbers of the world's Muslims, is antithetical to civil society. A recent poll showed that thirty-six percent of British Muslims (ages 16-24) believe that a person should be killed for leaving the faith. Sixty-eight percent of British Muslims feel that their neighbors who insult Islam should be arrested and prosecuted, and seventy-eight percent think that the Danish cartoonists should have been brought to justice. And these are British Muslims.

Occasionally, however, a lone voice can be heard acknowledging the obvious. Hassan Butt wrote in the Guardian:

When I was still a member of what is probably best termed the British Jihadi Network, a series of semi-autonomous British Muslim terrorist groups linked by a single ideology, I remember how we used to laugh in celebration whenever people on TV proclaimed that the sole cause for Islamic acts of terror like 9/11, the Madrid bombings and 7/7 was Western foreign policy. By blaming the government for our actions, those who pushed the 'Blair's bombs' line did our propaganda work for us. More important, they also helped to draw away any critical examination from the real engine of our violence: Islamic theology.


It is astounding how infrequently one hears such candor among the public voices of "moderate" Islam. This is what we owe the true moderates of the Muslim world: we must hold their co-religionists to the same standards of civility and reasonableness that we take for granted in all other people. Only our willingness to openly criticize Islam for its all-too-obvious failings can make it safe for Muslim moderates, secularists, apostates--and, indeed, women--to rise up and reform their faith.

And if anyone in this debate can be credibly accused of racism, it is the western apologists and "multiculturalists" who deem Arabs and Muslims too immature to shoulder the responsibilities of civil discourse. As Ayaan Hirsi Ali has pointed out, there is a calamitous form of "affirmative action" at work, especially in western Europe, where Muslim immigrants are systematically exempted from western standards of moral order in the name of paying "respect" to the glaring pathologies in their culture. Hirsi Ali has also observed that there is a quasi-racist double-think on display whenever western powers trumpet that "Islam is peace," all the while taking heroic measures to guard against the next occasion when the barbarians run amok in response to a film, cartoon, opera, novel, beauty pageant--or the mere naming of a teddy bear.

Have you seen the Danish cartoons that so roiled the Muslim world? Probably not, as their publication was suppressed by almost every newspaper, magazine, and television station in the United States. Given their volcanic reception--hundreds of thousands of Muslims rioted, hundreds of people were killed--their sheer banality should have rendered these drawings extraordinarily newsworthy. One magazine which did print them, Free Inquiry (for which I am proud to have written), had its stock banned from every Borders and Waldenbooks in the country. These are precisely the sorts of capitulations that we must avoid in the future.

The lesson we should draw from the Fitna controversy is that we need more criticism of Islam, not less. Let it come down in such torrents that not even the most deluded Islamist could conceive of containing it. As Ibn Warraq, author of the revelatory Why I Am Not a Muslim, said in response to recent events:

It is perverse for the western media to lament the lack of an Islamic reformation and willfully ignore works such as Wilders' film, Fitna. How do they think reformation will come about if not with criticism? There is no such right as 'the right not to be offended; indeed, I am deeply offended by the contents of the Koran, with its overt hatred of Christians, Jews, apostates, non-believers, homosexuals but cannot demand its suppression.

It is time we recognized that those who claim the "right not to be offended" have also announced their hatred of civil society.

Watch Fitna on Google Video

Comments 151 - 200 of 495 |

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151. Comment #175823 by Azven on May 6, 2008 at 5:58 am

 avatar
In Afghanistan, women in burqas could be seen burning the Dutch flag


There they go with the flag-burning again. They must have warehouses full of foreign flags "for the burning of".

I hope we sold the flags to them. If you buy a flag, it's your flag; and thanks for the money.

Other Comments by Azven

152. Comment #175824 by mossie23 on May 6, 2008 at 6:01 am

apart from the claims sam harris makes, i totally fail to understand why geert wilders gets so much credit for what he does. here in holland he's considered by most educated people to be a complete nut.

and that's not because of what he says, but mainly because of how he says it. his message can also be found in the stuff dawkins, harris, hitchens, etc. write and say. but whereas they manage to appeal to reason and make a good case for what they say, wilders does more damage than good to the argument, by mainly appealing to emotion.

for me, fitna clearly illustrates this, by being very much like the cheap copy-and-paste stuff creationists do to prove evolution is wrong. all he does is shouting that islam is bad.

he's giving people conclusions, not thoughts to reach their own conclusions. maybe that's why educated people don't even listen to him anymore in the netherlands, even if he might have a point.

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153. Comment #175825 by Jopses on May 6, 2008 at 6:01 am

After all the comments I read, I feel somehow pessimistic about the necessary Islamic reformation.

To counterpart these feelings I recommend to watch the clip about the famous ventriloquist Jeff Durham who presents Achmed the dead terrorist:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sLQScKEm59c

Take a good laugh and you feel better too.

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154. Comment #175826 by Azven on May 6, 2008 at 6:03 am

 avatar
And these are British Muslims


I know a number of "British Muslims" from different countries of origin. I've noticed that the further West the country the more reasonable they are. Many West African Muslims are happy to speak out about [against] violence, but when was the last time you saw a West African interviewed for his/her opinion?

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155. Comment #175828 by Azven on May 6, 2008 at 6:10 am

 avatarAslan:
"that indicates the profound unsophistication that you have about this re[li]gion. You could not be more wrong" and claiming that I'd taken my view of Islam from "Fox News."


(I've assumed a correction in the above quote from region to religion).

I actually find this to be a reasonably response. I'm not saying it's correct. In fact I'd say that it isn't correct, but it is at least a reasonable response, and I hope that Sam went on to argue in his counter-point what "close enough" meant.

Other Comments by Azven

156. Comment #175868 by Edamus on May 6, 2008 at 7:06 am

 avatarAwesome, Mr. Harris.

That's just what we need, someone to point the common fallacy, "Islam is a religion of peace, but if you insult it, we'll kill you."

Bravo.

Other Comments by Edamus

157. Comment #175903 by BW022 on May 6, 2008 at 8:19 am

Does anyone wonder what the Islamic reaction would be if the vast majority of western folks just stopped saying that Islam is a peaceful religion? Say...

A few tens of millions people marched world-wide in support of the Danish cartoonists. Millions of letters of support came in. Thousands of newspapers across the west ran them. Exciles where routinely interviewed nationally and invited to speak at massive public venues. "Moderate" Islamists were routinely quoted on national newspapers with any evasive or bogus answers. Western leaders started saying that if Islam can't withstand critism, cartoons, or the occational irreverant comment, then there was no use for it in western societies and they would protect free speach. If newspapers ran critical articles without self-censorship. etc., etc.

Could Islam continue such threats against individuals? And would they have any meaning or effect? Would they continue with it, knowing that five minutes after making such a threat, newspapers would re-run the article with the threats added?

Would there not then be a real issue with moderate and semi-extremists calling for attacks on entire populations? It is one thing to call for say a journalists death, but what if that person is marching with 50,000 other people in say Times Square? Do you call for attacks on New York? Besides that fact such groups would immediately be classified as terrorists organizations, it would appear to be an escalation that they wouldn't likely be able to withstand.

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158. Comment #175928 by SteveO on May 6, 2008 at 8:48 am

 avatarThe way that our prized social structures throughout the civilized world have declined to protect our hard won freedom of expression is absolutely abhorrent. If the enactment of our convictions so readily crumbles in the face of bullying then what do we have left to be proud of (and not in the least to protect us)?

I think if more people would eschew the idea of an afterlife there would be more outrage over destroying even a single person's freedoms in this one.

Other Comments by SteveO

159. Comment #175937 by al-rawandi on May 6, 2008 at 8:58 am

 avatarKeith,



Which league did you have in mind? The league that agrees with your point of view? The league that advocates the same reading list as you? If that's the case, why not simply say that you don't agree with him rather than getting all sniffy about his credentials?

So, let's hear why you think he's not up to this particular task. You seem to be insinuating that Sam doesn't know his arse from his elbow on the question of Islam but that you do.

Okay, fire away...




First and foremost Alan Dershowitz was exposed as having lifted (illicitly) passages from a hoax (From Time Immemorial). He was exposed on Democracy Now by Norman Finkelstein.


Finkelstein also did a number on the Goldhagen piece. He co-authored, "The Goldhagen Affair" with Ruth Beta Birn.


Although some of Harris' points on Islam are valuable I think in general he isn't a genuinely educated commentator. Which is totally forgivable, since his training is in philosophy.

He doesn't take a very nuanced approach to the subject and is pretty general in his critique. If you want some specifics, you will have to give me a day or so.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

160. Comment #175956 by Mitchell Gilks on May 6, 2008 at 9:30 am

 avatarI love Sam's writing. Fantastic article.

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161. Comment #175974 by Wadsworth on May 6, 2008 at 9:58 am

In ancient times, terrorists were dealt with by "punitive raids". Can anyone think of a better way to stop them infitrating our civilisation and taking it over?

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162. Comment #175980 by al-rawandi on May 6, 2008 at 10:08 am

 avatarWadsworth,




The Israelis tried this in the 1950's in response to Arab fedayeen raids. It didn't really get things done, and the policy led to the Qibya massacre in 1956 and helped precipitate the 1956 war, due to the insistence of action from Moshe Dayan.

But I would be interested to hear your theory. What exactly do you mean by these "raids"? Random bombing of countries of origin? Villages? Targeted assaults? Economic sanctions?

I have thought about this before. Make it painful for them. But doesn't this simply make the problem worse... a form of recruitment.

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163. Comment #175996 by DalaiDrivel on May 6, 2008 at 10:32 am

BW022,

Well, that's precisely where we should be.

I think the fairly obvious answer is that Muslims would cease to prey on our values of free speech and free thought.

That's it! I'm going out and making a T-Shirt: "Proud to be an Infidel!" or something like that. No, kidding...

Anyway... the truth is that Muslims are fallble human beings wth fallible minds and fallible beliefs, and something like your point about re-running articles with the threats added would I think be effective in evoking their ingrained human sense of humiliation.

Not just that, but I in the end it would aid integration of Muslims in society. No radical would want to stick out in a majority of free writers, free speakers, and free thinkers, even if that majority is targeted.

I live in Vancouver, Canada, and as everyone who's been here knows, the pot culture is prolific. So when there was a public mass smoke-up downtown on 420 this year, involving thousands of people, the police just sat back and went "meh, can't arrest all of them."

If Muslims are just humans, and we are just humans, it should work the same. Now how we get there I think is by steady intellectual leadership. I mean sharing ideas in the Western tradition, yet armed with courage and tenacity, by setting an example to everyone whom we know. This can be done by mass address, if we are politicians or people of influence, or under the radar, as Sam would put it, at the grassroots. The numbers of the courageous will grow with exposure to this free openness.

No one is saying that Muslims must embrace Western ideology ultimately. But they do if they want to live in the West. Thoeoretically as our society is dynamic it could morph into a theocracy or secular dictatorship at the hands of radicals, but only by their piggy-backing on our acquiescence and the very dynamicism that they despise, and by ignoring the history and evolution of our culture. It's interesting to reflect on the ignorance of history that suppressive regimes have, something Orwell epitomised so well in his description of Oceania's bureaucracy in 1984. In reality, this is generally, and I think rightly, regarded as a bad move...

I don't know why I am urged to write so much upon reading Sam's work. I know that I like his ideas and delivery very much. I am an apologist...



Vinelectric,

I'm with you all the way. You might say we have a reason surplus, and we're giving it away... for free! Free reception, another spin on the ideology of free expression. I'm serious. We all know how religion responds to inquiry and curiosity. There is a cost. It's unreasonable to suppress good ideas, or any ideas on an arbitrary basis. Share them freely, have them received freely. That is what I meant by the "free openness" I wrote earlier.

Other Comments by DalaiDrivel

164. Comment #176004 by Quetzalcoatl on May 6, 2008 at 10:43 am

 avatarRe Wadsworth's suggestion:

Punitive raids are a dicey proposition. The only way that they could be carried out without causing a lot of new recruitment is if they're targeted.

If the intelligence is good enough, hit them in their base camps and hide-outs. Target their supply routes and staging areas. Certainly hit anyone on your side of the border who is helping them in some way.

If the intel isn't that good, then the raids are likely to do more harm than good.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

165. Comment #176043 by liberalartist on May 6, 2008 at 12:20 pm

 avatarI find it ironic that atheists and islamic fundamentalists agree on something - Islam is a violent religion.

Sam - I thought this was a great article, you are a good writer. Now I have to go finish your survey...

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166. Comment #176073 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 1:52 pm

 avatarI like Sam Harris and most of the insightful things he is saying:
1. Muslim Community Leaders are more concerned about defending their community then denouncing extermism
2.The "free" press is not really behaving as a free press denouncing threats to freedom and double language
3. if you dont face up to issues and speak your mind you may end up with a fait accomplit wher we have ceded our rights
4. there is obviously a double standard applied to religions

However as with aerial bombing creating "collateral damage" hardening the populations resistance we need to think carefully about the way we send the message to the middle ground.

Is criticism phrased in the following way going to win hearts and minds
"The connection between the doctrine of Islam and Islamist violence is simply not open to dispute."
"The lesson we should draw from the Fitna controversy is that we need more criticism of Islam, not less."

Many muslims feel somewhat excluded from society due to the 9/11 terrorists and even before. Two highly educated peopl I know have given up looking for jobs in UK and gone to Dubai due to the discrimination they felt. Both have high regard or worked in USA and are very open minded and rational. One is Shia - hardly close to the 911 terrorists.
One is married to a christian american.

Both would only feel the above document was anti the muslim community so Sam's good arguments would probably be wasted.

While I believe there is a place for some verbal shock therapy (perhaps in one to one discussion or in books) but we need to find alternative complementary methods of communication then this (particularly in mass market channels).

Otherwise we are going to make this (secularising the muslim community) more difficult and slower then it needs to be.

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167. Comment #176076 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 1:59 pm

 avatarComment #175824 by mossie23
"wilders does more damage than good"
"all he does is shouting that islam is bad."

I would pretty much agree with that.I think its not the message but the way the message is sent also.

Good post.

Obviously that dosn't give anyone the ok to make violent threats though.

Other Comments by Nairb

168. Comment #176079 by Fanusi Khiyal on May 6, 2008 at 2:02 pm

Two highly educated peopl I know have given up looking for jobs in UK and gone to Dubai due to the discrimination they felt


The only thing I can think of, though I know the objections, is: Good. Two fewer problems in the West.

Muslims have excluded themselves from society by their own choices. 36% of British muslims think that apostasy merits death. What does that say about the kind of discourse the others tolerate? They made that bed; now they can lie in it.

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169. Comment #176095 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 2:29 pm

 avatarFanusi,
You should think of other things too.

My freinds willingly included themselves in western society because they had a high regard for it relative to their own. They were opposed to and kept a long distance from the many extremist muslims in UK.

They would have continued to wave off the petty insults of little englanders except the discrimination they felt was not from the guy selling papers but highly educated people in the workplace and this affected them financially.


This is not a good thing for our western society. Forget the muslims for a second. This says something about the functioning of our society.

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170. Comment #176098 by Goldy on May 6, 2008 at 2:33 pm

Two highly educated peopl I know have given up looking for jobs in UK and gone to Dubai due to the discrimination they felt. Both have high regard or worked in USA and are very open minded and rational. One is Shia - hardly close to the 911 terrorists.
One is married to a christian american.

Unlike Fanusi, I do see this as a bit sad. It also shows that people are being manipulated by those that wish to cause some sort of conflict. A tiny, tiny, tiny minority seeks to "redress the injustices" and so demonises a whole religion. The rest of the world's reaction to this then is focused on the whole religion and so the adherent obviously rise to the bait. Not rocket science!.
I do wonder if the anti-western thing about Islam that I hear about is a media construct. After all, China isn't exactly lovey-dovey with East Turkestani Uighers and does keep a very strict eye on mosques but I don't read anti-Chinese sentiment in, say, Arab News...

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171. Comment #176099 by al-rawandi on May 6, 2008 at 2:33 pm

 avatarNairb,




It is true that Muslims will and do face discrimination. This is wrong. Everyone should be judged based on their personal merit.

The problem is that it is simple fact that certain belief systems breed people that have little or no personal merit. These people are capable of having excellent qualities but instead seek out simple and vicious dogma to define their lives.

They see their faith on one hand and they see everything western embarrasing this faith, including Israel, Economics, Intellectualism, Science, Literature, etc... Their choices are to join western culture and reject their backwards ideologies, or to fight back hard, devolving into ever increasing hatred and bigotry in order to repel the new ideologies and maintain a firm grip on what defines them, a bigoted and backwards faith.

This is the problem. As long as Islam appeals to the youth, there will be an issue. This is an issue for the education system. Although it seems the British education system seems all too eager to knuckle under and ban evolution and teaching of the Holocaust to appease the only people still interested in exterminating Jews.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

172. Comment #176101 by Goldy on May 6, 2008 at 2:40 pm

They would have continued to wave off the petty insults of little englanders except the discrimination they felt was not from the guy selling papers but highly educated people in the workplace and this affected them financially

Maybe the names were an issue. Did they try sending CVs with European names? And age - I can remember well the difficulty in getting a job in the UK because I was over 30 and had travelled a bit (strangely, none of this affected my finding work in NZ...)
Discrimination is multi-faceted. The interpretation one has as to why one is being discriminated against might be wrong.
Saying that, I do remember hearing (and I still do read, in Arab News) how bad the west is, from our ideas to our morals to...well, just about everything. Music is sinful, dancing is sinful, heck, even our sin is sinful. We drink, eat pork, do this do that and we have to change to accommodate them, not the other way around. This irks people like me, which them angers me becasue I know I'm playing right into the hands of those agents who would like to cause conflict (there is so much money to be made in conflict by so few, after all).

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173. Comment #176130 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 4:29 pm

 avatarGoldy

Agreed on the idea that their names are a give away in the UK. Above all it is sad for our society.
I am more concerned about the work we need to do to build a strong open society here then caring about the stupid rules and ideas some people have in Saudi.

For me there seems to be a vicious cycle of overreaction from fear of the other to aggressivity (all the way back to the Nazis and before). Hitler exploited german fears in hyperinflation economy. Bush exploited american fear after 911. His overeaction in Iraq has inflamed muslim opinion ( even he is right in the long run).

For me Muslims are not the enemy. Fear (of other communities) is the enemy.

If we can control/reduce that fear then their will be less issues for the slimebags to exploit.

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174. Comment #176132 by mmurray on May 6, 2008 at 4:37 pm

 avatar
I am more concerned about the work we need to do to build a strong open society here then caring about the stupid rules and ideas some people have in Saudi.


It could be argued that the people in Saudi are working hard (using the money we give them for oil) to undermine our open society.

Michael

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175. Comment #176134 by Nairb on May 6, 2008 at 4:46 pm

 avatarAl Rawandi

I agree that there is not alot to be said for Islam as a doctrine. At best its contradictory.At worst ...

But as with Christianity people see what they want to see in it. One of the people I mentioned was probably one of the most courageous and straight thinking and acting person I know. He ate pork, drank and attended the mosque. Other muslims I know come in all variations down to slimebag.

I think young people will attach themselves to whatever gets them respect. I think there is some problems now but I think it will be gone in 20 years. I think its more of a 2nd generation immigrant problem.

Their behaviour in council estates/suburbs to women is unspeakable. (A french girl becme a national feminist figure after her siser was raped and burnt alive). But often so is behaviour of non muslims. I see it more as a social issue exacerbated by intolerant (wahabi) preachers preying on social outcasts for a power base.

Agreed UK's comunatarian policies haven't helped. Its not the same accross europe and I think this has contributed to british muslims poor opinion of the west compared to muslims elsewhere where a strong National integration education system exists.

Also British muslims are largely Pakistanis (radicalised since Afghanistan war). In europe with Algerian, Moroccon or Turkish muslims, religion is more low key and easy going. Some french muslims I know were scared by the radicalisation they saw in London.

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176. Comment #176153 by Goldy on May 6, 2008 at 5:19 pm

Some french muslims I know were scared by the radicalisation they saw in London.

One wonders what they would have thought of Bradford, Dewsbury etc :-) Mind you, coming from the Mahgreb, they'd have been more used to European mores than a Pashtun family coming to Bradford (I think).
Most of the Muslims I knew in Syria drank and quite a few liked bacon with their eggs. In a Muslim society, I never really noticed as strong an adherence to religion as I felt in the immigrant community - and even then, there were many pubs around me that only differed from the traditional British pub in that instead of flat caps and whippets (oooh, terrible stereotype! I'll not apologise :-D) it was Urdu and dominoes. I can't recall the bar being empty or the bar maid bored from lack of work serving beer...
It is a small minority or it is older men trying to atone for their past sins (so I been told by younger Muslim men pissed off at their fathers and uncles for trying to force the religion they never followed unto them). There is a positive feedback loop which is starting to ensnare everyone into this cycle of hatred and revenge for perceived slights.

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177. Comment #176162 by Fire1974 on May 6, 2008 at 5:51 pm

And if anyone in this debate can be credibly accused of racism, it is the western apologists and "multiculturalists" who deem Arabs and Muslims too immature to shoulder the responsibilities of civil discourse.


I find this to be the single most important line in this fantastic article. Go Sam!

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178. Comment #176163 by acarrionwasp on May 6, 2008 at 5:51 pm

 avatarthis really has come to a point now... I have seriously been considering leaving the US after I finish school. The place has gone mad...but where do we go? Norway? TO HIDE? ... or stay behind and teach biology--hoping to educate a handful?

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179. Comment #176174 by dragonfirematrix on May 6, 2008 at 7:21 pm

 avatarGreat article.

To quote a part: "The lesson we should draw from the Fitna controversy is that we need more criticism of Islam, not less. Let it come down in such torrents that not even the most deluded Islamist could conceive of containing it."

May I add that open criticism of religion (in general) should boldly flood the airways, cable, newsprint, bookstores, and Ethernets.

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180. Comment #176182 by k1mgy on May 6, 2008 at 8:03 pm

 avatar>>This video response to Fitna, certainly makes
>>thing interesting:

>>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rpiccERJaFk

I watched.

Then I retched.

By the way, those would be 'Murcan boys kicking the shit out of other human beings? Charming. Let's not bring them home.

Here's an idea. Would it be at all possible to, say, send the entire lot of these religious lunatics to a large and very isolated island and just let them go?

When it's done with those of us remaining can wash off the fallout and return to a world without all this nonsense.

The greatest tragedy is that these children in the film above are already lost. It is why I hold my own close and protect them from the mental chaos that surrounds us.

Thanks to RDF for bringing this stuff to light.

I think.

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181. Comment #176183 by Goldy on May 6, 2008 at 8:04 pm

The lesson we should draw from the Fitna controversy is that we need more criticism of Islam, not less. Let it come down in such torrents that not even the most deluded Islamist could conceive of containing it

A perusal of the British press of late seems to suggest Islam can do no right. Election of rather right wing politicians into London councils also appears to suggest that people are beginning to try and shake politicians from their slumber and show that they don't like all this bending over backward attitute to Islamic requests.
All the while, we the west have this millstone around our necks.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/07/world/middleeast/07israel.html?ref=world
We also appear to support the vilest regimes who actively export their rather nasty interpretation of Islam.
What is a Muslim to think?

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182. Comment #176185 by MrEmpirical on May 6, 2008 at 8:17 pm

Muslims think?

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183. Comment #176222 by Appleby on May 7, 2008 at 12:38 am

Sam,

There is one more important thing Western nations can do about this problem. Reinforce the floodgates of Muslim infestation into the West. They are studying, working and breeding in uncontrolled numbers in our very neighborhoods and therefore a threat to us whenever something like the Danish cartoons or Fitna comes up. I know this may sound politically incorrect, but you just can't help some people. It's best they writhe in their own backwater nations and come to the realization themselves that Islam is a poor choice of ideology. We also have much less to fear from them if they are thousands of miles away.

Let us give them what they want. They want to be left alone. Let's forget about them completely and find new sources of income instead of trying to cash in on their governments' obsession with Western degrees and recognition. It's obvious they do not want our recognition where it counts. Let us focus more on our own children, education and safety. I see nothing wrong in that.

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184. Comment #176226 by riandouglas on May 7, 2008 at 12:47 am

 avatar
Appleby: I know this may sound politically incorrect, but you just can't help some people.

How do you propose to tell the difference between the "can't be helped"'s and the "can be helped"'s?

Appleby: It's best they writhe in their own backwater nations and come to the realization themselves that Islam is a poor choice of ideology. We also have much less to fear from them if they are thousands of miles away.

Wouldn't that reinforce the seeming stereotype of the west in the msulim world as "evil".
Not sure it would work in any reasonable fashion.

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185. Comment #176230 by Appleby on May 7, 2008 at 1:02 am

raidouglas: How do you propose to tell the difference between the "can't be helped"'s and the "can be helped"'s?


It doesn't matter. Those who "can be helped" take the effort to help themselves. We are under no obligation to educate the world. Especially those who just can't seem to learn (like Muslim extremists and many so-called moderates).

raidouglas: Wouldn't that reinforce the seeming stereotype of the west in the msulim world as "evil".
Not sure it would work in any reasonable fashion.


We are "evil" to them any way you slice it. It's a tactic to make us feel guilty when we have no reason to be. We *owe* none of them anything. Don't we have the right to choose our friends?

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186. Comment #176256 by Chris Walsh on May 7, 2008 at 3:03 am

 avatarHas anyone seen the dreadful bus adverts in central London lately... with that kid grinning whilst staring at a marquee stating "Islam Is Peace". I visited their site http://www.islamispeace.org.uk/index.php" awful.

I see they're also pushing Jesus' redemptive qualities on the London underground now... every time I get on the train, it's "JESUS SAVES!!!".

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187. Comment #176259 by Goldy on May 7, 2008 at 3:08 am

Muslims think?

Given there are 1.6 billion of them (or was that million? Still, quite a few), I have to say I am rather stunned by this question.

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188. Comment #176262 by irate_atheist on May 7, 2008 at 3:25 am

 avatar187. Comment #176256 by Chris Walsh -

JESUS SAVES!!!

Shearer scores on the rebound.

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189. Comment #176290 by mmurray on May 7, 2008 at 6:11 am

 avatar
We also have much less to fear from them if they are thousands of miles away.

Let us give them what they want. They want to be left alone.


I wish it were so but we are entangled with the the muslim world due to their oil, Israel and the large numbers of them already citizens of the west. The fact they are thousands of miles away is no help as 9/11 has amply demonstrated. They can get on planes with fake passports or they can find people with legitimate passports from non-islamic nations to do their bidding. Remember the good old days when terrorists used to swap around to avoid detection: the red brigade could do a job for the IRA in return for one back for them. Or they can just build missiles with the help of someone like North Korea. Or they can take over Pakistan which already has a good stockpile to nuclear missiles.

Michael

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190. Comment #176292 by mmurray on May 7, 2008 at 6:16 am

 avatar
I see they're also pushing Jesus' redemptive qualities on the London underground now... every time I get on the train, it's "JESUS SAVES!!!".


This must be the reason God invented indelible marker pens that write on any surface.

Back in the bad old days when cigarettes were advertised there was group here called ASH (= Action on Smoking and Health) who defaced cigarette advertising. They usually got lenient sentences from the judges. I guess if you deface a religious advertisement you run the risk of getting up in front of a religious judge.

Michael

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191. Comment #176295 by thyseeker on May 7, 2008 at 6:19 am

Teratornis

"It's all about oil."

I am a lurker and seldom post…but I am also an old investment advisor and oil man and can not resist comment on this topic.

Presently 95% of my investment accounts are invested in energy. Here are a few reasons why.

1. The Oil Minister of Saudi Arabia recently noted that the price of oil was headed to $200. I have no reason to doubt him.
2. Last week a CIBC Research Report noted that the sale of Autos was up 60% in Russia in 2007 over 2006. In Brazil this same figure was up 30% and in China this same figure was up 20%. What does this tell you about the use of oil?
3. Just yesterday, a Goldman Sachs Research Report predicted a "Super Spike" in the price of oil in the months ahead. Goldman expects $150 oil within six months and $200 oil within 24 months.

CIBC and Goldman are gold plated investment firms. I think that their predictions will help their expectations come true (because people will act upon them).

As for the USA…

The above facts/ trends call for change. Here are a few facts that have caught my eye…

1. About 85% of drillable public lands (esp in Alaska and off shore) are now closed to oil and gas drilling. This will change in response to pain.... and the fact that Chinese company has been drilling 50 miles off our shores in Cuban waters and Brazil recently made a multi billion barrel find 200 miles off of its shores at great depths may ease the way.
2. T Boon Pickins (a legendary oil operator) is in the process of self financing a $10 billion dollar wind farm in Texas. This will be the nations largest…4000 Mega-Watts.
3. The Canadian Pacific Railroad has purchased a small railroad (the DM & E) that has Govt approvals to build/ patch together another rail line out of the Wyoming coal fields to the Mid West. The US has a 200 year supply of coal in Western Wyoming. This will be the nations largest rail project in 100 years and could greatly increase the coal supply for electricity generators in the heart of our nation.
4. The Government recently estimated the bakken shale lands in North Dakota and Montana hold about 4 billion barrels of oil. There are over 50 oil drilling rigs in that area right now. Small potatoes…but an indication of what is going to happen…happiness is a low cost oil field.
5. The nuclear fear factor will be overcome. Many do not realize that about 20% of the US power supply comes from nuclear power…even though the nation has not built a new nuclear power plant in decades. Dozens and dozens of new plants are in the works around the world. China has about 20 plants in the pipeline, about a half dozen are under contract.

I do not think that we are headed for a cold and dark future…in the West but I do think we are headed for painful and costly change that could disrupt world economic development and lead to a rush to tie down supply contracts. We will see more economic aid tied to mining and drilling activities (look at recent Chinese deals in Africa). Also, shipping and tanker stocks have done well for the past few years and should continue to do well.

Finally, Islamic oil producing nations are now in the drivers seat and there are no short term prospects of removing them from their position of power. The only way to reduce their power long term is to reduce imports of oil. If prices keep climbing….we do have a chance of doing just that. Time will tell.

Now…back to my trade station.

Other Comments by thyseeker

192. Comment #176296 by al-rawandi on May 7, 2008 at 6:23 am

 avatarNairb,




I think that is fair.


It is all a social issue, religion is nothing but a cultural and societal product. So the cultures are highly relevant to the behavior of the specific Muslim.

Other Comments by al-rawandi

193. Comment #176301 by iluvsam on May 7, 2008 at 6:36 am

I would love to see this article on The Huffington Post, etc. It needs to be read by a wider audience.

Other Comments by iluvsam

194. Comment #176336 by Bonzai on May 7, 2008 at 7:32 am

Has anyone seen the dreadful bus adverts in central London lately... with that kid grinning whilst staring at a marquee stating "Islam Is Peace"


Sorry, what is a "marquee"?

Other Comments by Bonzai

195. Comment #176380 by acarrionwasp on May 7, 2008 at 8:11 am

 avatarBonzai... show some initiative, save some time--look it up.

1. a tall rooflike projection above a theater entrance, usually containing the name of a currently featured play or film and its stars.
2. a rooflike shelter, as of glass, projecting above an outer door and over a sidewalk or a terrace.
3. Also, marquess, marquise. British. a large tent or tentlike shelter with open sides, esp. one for temporary use in outdoor entertainments, receptions, etc.

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196. Comment #176407 by davidstvz on May 7, 2008 at 8:56 am

Brilliant? Sure, but he's preaching to the choir. This *really* needed to be in the NYT, even if it had to be watered down first.

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197. Comment #176427 by ianmac66 on May 7, 2008 at 10:04 am

offending islam is not the problem. In Scotland,Islam has now become the second biggest religion.They will keep growing, not only in Scotland, but in all European countries.How long before they demand Islamic schools?.How long before they become Government ministers? How long before they demand an Islamic state? It is time we stood up to these people before it is too late.

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198. Comment #176432 by al-rawandi on May 7, 2008 at 10:09 am

 avatarianmac66,






Excellent point. They are winning the war in the bedroom. It is a demographic issue. Muslims tend to have large numbers of children (this is doctrinal within Islam, a duty of sorts, to have many children), these kids will grow up perhaps more radicalized than their parents.

I don't think the British get it yet.

There are moderate Muslims, but when the first bill for shariah gets introduced, who will the moderates stand with. So far the moderates only whine about Islamophobia and racism, and don't even acknowledge the Muslim source for Occidentphobia, bigotry, sexism, death, and expansionism. So the moderates are no help, they are a cover which the fundamentalists can use to say "Ya I am one of those Muslims who goes to soccer games and votes and stuff, so nothing to see here."

Other Comments by al-rawandi

199. Comment #176436 by Bonzai on May 7, 2008 at 10:21 am

"Jesus saves" sounds like a slogan of some super cheap store that sells crappy products made in sweatshops in the third world.

Other Comments by Bonzai

200. Comment #176443 by Bonzai on May 7, 2008 at 10:50 am

Al

There are moderate Muslims, but when the first bill for shariah gets introduced, who will the moderates stand with. So far the moderates only whine about Islamophobia and racism, and don't even acknowledge the Muslim source for Occidentphobia, bigotry, sexism, death, and expansionism. So the moderates are no help, they are a cover which the fundamentalists can use to say "Ya I am one of those Muslims who goes to soccer games and votes and stuff, so nothing to see here."


I understand your general sentiment. I think though, it is not as simple as you make it out to be. The problem is not the number of nominal Muslims in your country, but how integrated they are. This is not a purely demographic issue.

The unintegrated Muslims, as you say, when push come to shove, would likely close rank with their more strident co-religionists.

On the other hand, at least in my province of Ontario, it was the moderate Muslims who were most instrumental in stopping Sharia dead on its track, A number of Muslims, especially women, mounted a truly impressive and highly visible campaign against allowing Sharia in family arbitrations while our politicians were about give it the green light. The secular "progressives" were mostly in favour of Sharia in the name of "multiculturalism".

I think a few lessons can be drawn.

1) The moderates don't always enable the fundamentalists, in this case this assertion is refuted very dramatically

2) The secular, "multi-cultural" elite,--who are mostly middle class and white,--are often most effective in undermining the genuine liberal causes they claim to uphold. They are worse than the "moderates" by being enablers of Islamic fundamentalism

3) Policies that encourage segregationist tendencies in Muslims have to be stopped and drastically reversed in countries like the U.K.

Muslims per se are not the problem, but when you have a large number of unintegrated Muslims in your country, you are asking for troubles. To encourage integration, you must stop the special treatments , accommodations and state funded faith schools, but hitting people with a stick is not good enough, you must also offer genuine rewards for integration.

The U.K practices a kind of perverted "multi-culturalism" which is basically an adaptation of colonial techniques to manage its own minority populations. Minorities are encouraged to segregate themselves in their own ghettos so that the mainstream doesn't have to suffer the inconvenience of really opening up to new comers. So, "new" racism with a "muticultral" appearance dovetails nicely with good old boy racism.

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