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A word for nonbelievers
by David O'Reilly, Philadelpha Inquirer
Billboard on I-95 reaches out to atheists in the region.
With its image of blue sky and fluffy clouds, the rectangle floating lately over I-95 near Allegheny Avenue suggests something dreamy, almost heavenly.
At least from a distance.
Drivers headed north toward the giant billboard might first discern the words God and Believe and suppose this to be the work of a fundamentalist church.
Steve Rade, the Huntingdon Valley businessman who donated the money to put up the billboard, which is along I-95 near the Allegheny Avenue exit. "Our mission is not to convince fundamentalists to change their position," he says.
But this is the work of no church.
"Don't believe in God?" it asks. "You are not alone."
Think of it as a sign of the times.
Mounted by a consortium of local atheists, it is an invitation to the area's atheists, agnostics, skeptics, rationalists and religious freethinkers (no one label fits them all) to overcome their differences and form a coalition.
"Hundreds of thousands of your neighbors in the Delaware Valley feel the same as you do," according to the Web site www.phillyCOR.org, to which the billboard directs passing motorists.
"Our mission is not to convince fundamentalists to change their position," Steve Rade, a Huntingdon Valley businessman, said last week. He donated the $22,500 needed to mount the billboard, which appeared May 1 and is to remain until the end of August.
"What we want to do is give people questioning their beliefs a place to go for more information and to meet like-minded people."
No horns poke through Rade's wiry gray hair. He is tall and bony, quick to laugh, and dressed for the office - he is president of Wireless Accessories Inc. - in shorts and sneakers. He has the restless energy of a teenager. He is 70.
"I'd like everyone to believe what I do," he said, referring to his "absolute certainty" that there is no divine being running the universe and no life after death. "I think it would be a better world if they did."
The son of a West Oak Lane synagogue president who insisted that his children attend Shabbat services every Saturday, Rade was bar mitzvahed at 13 and confirmed at 16. But his youthful doubts about God and supernaturalism hardened while an undergraduate at Pennsylvania State University, where he was a finance major.
"It was just my own critical, rational thinking," he said Thursday with a shrug. "I accept that the universe began with the Big Bang, but I don't believe there were snakes talking in the Garden of Eden. . . . If God shows himself to me, I'll believe."
His grand plan - organizing the region's religious skeptics - began just three months ago, when he asked the American Humanist Association in Washington how to find its local chapter.
In March, he met for dinner with Joe Fox, president of the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia. Fox told him that there were many atheist groups in the region, but that few communicated with one another.
"Joe saw it as a lack of focus," Rade recalled. "I saw it as disarray."
Days later, he invited Fox and the heads of seven other like-minded organizations to dinner at a Chinese restaurant and asked if they wanted to expand and unify.
They agreed to create an umbrella group called the Greater Philadelphia Coalition of Reason (PhillyCOR), and Rade agreed to pay the salary of its half-time executive director.
After that, "the idea for a billboard was easy to come by."
The 20-by-60-foot sign has generated 7,000 hits for the Web site, which offers links to such member organizations as the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia, the Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia, Philadelphia Atheists Meetup, and the Secular Society of Temple University.
The sign's original, geographically limited toll-free phone number generated only about 300 calls, however. The new number, 1-877-99HUMANIST, is reachable from any area code.
A recording describes PhillyCOR as a "local free thought group" for "those without supernatural beliefs."
"I'm so appreciative of Steve," Sally Cramer, president of the 300-member Freethought Society, said Friday. "I love the message. I'm really pleased we're able to be a part of this."
At age 24, she has no way to know if it is easier for today's atheists to be "out of the closet," but she said she had encountered hostility. The mother of a previous boyfriend "wouldn't talk to me when she found out I'm an atheist," she said.
No one knows how many American adults identify themselves as being in the atheist spectrum, but surveys suggest between 4 percent and 9 percent, the lowest of any industrialized nation.
Fred Edwords, spokesman for the roughly 10,000-member American Humanist Association, said he thought it was easier for atheists and agnostics to be public than in previous decades.
"In the 1980s, people were saying we're part of a great conspiracy, trying to take over the schools and courts."
The recent spate of best-sellers bearing such titles as The God Delusion, God Is Not Great and The End of Faith suggests a broader public interest in religious skepticism, Edwords said. "But we still feel we're the last minority group it's OK to say bad things about."
Also on Pharyngula.
With its image of blue sky and fluffy clouds, the rectangle floating lately over I-95 near Allegheny Avenue suggests something dreamy, almost heavenly.
At least from a distance.
Drivers headed north toward the giant billboard might first discern the words God and Believe and suppose this to be the work of a fundamentalist church.
Steve Rade, the Huntingdon Valley businessman who donated the money to put up the billboard, which is along I-95 near the Allegheny Avenue exit. "Our mission is not to convince fundamentalists to change their position," he says.
But this is the work of no church.
"Don't believe in God?" it asks. "You are not alone."
Think of it as a sign of the times.
Mounted by a consortium of local atheists, it is an invitation to the area's atheists, agnostics, skeptics, rationalists and religious freethinkers (no one label fits them all) to overcome their differences and form a coalition.
"Hundreds of thousands of your neighbors in the Delaware Valley feel the same as you do," according to the Web site www.phillyCOR.org, to which the billboard directs passing motorists.
"Our mission is not to convince fundamentalists to change their position," Steve Rade, a Huntingdon Valley businessman, said last week. He donated the $22,500 needed to mount the billboard, which appeared May 1 and is to remain until the end of August.
"What we want to do is give people questioning their beliefs a place to go for more information and to meet like-minded people."
No horns poke through Rade's wiry gray hair. He is tall and bony, quick to laugh, and dressed for the office - he is president of Wireless Accessories Inc. - in shorts and sneakers. He has the restless energy of a teenager. He is 70.
"I'd like everyone to believe what I do," he said, referring to his "absolute certainty" that there is no divine being running the universe and no life after death. "I think it would be a better world if they did."
The son of a West Oak Lane synagogue president who insisted that his children attend Shabbat services every Saturday, Rade was bar mitzvahed at 13 and confirmed at 16. But his youthful doubts about God and supernaturalism hardened while an undergraduate at Pennsylvania State University, where he was a finance major.
"It was just my own critical, rational thinking," he said Thursday with a shrug. "I accept that the universe began with the Big Bang, but I don't believe there were snakes talking in the Garden of Eden. . . . If God shows himself to me, I'll believe."
His grand plan - organizing the region's religious skeptics - began just three months ago, when he asked the American Humanist Association in Washington how to find its local chapter.
In March, he met for dinner with Joe Fox, president of the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia. Fox told him that there were many atheist groups in the region, but that few communicated with one another.
"Joe saw it as a lack of focus," Rade recalled. "I saw it as disarray."
Days later, he invited Fox and the heads of seven other like-minded organizations to dinner at a Chinese restaurant and asked if they wanted to expand and unify.
They agreed to create an umbrella group called the Greater Philadelphia Coalition of Reason (PhillyCOR), and Rade agreed to pay the salary of its half-time executive director.
After that, "the idea for a billboard was easy to come by."
The 20-by-60-foot sign has generated 7,000 hits for the Web site, which offers links to such member organizations as the Humanist Association of Greater Philadelphia, the Freethought Society of Greater Philadelphia, Philadelphia Atheists Meetup, and the Secular Society of Temple University.
The sign's original, geographically limited toll-free phone number generated only about 300 calls, however. The new number, 1-877-99HUMANIST, is reachable from any area code.
A recording describes PhillyCOR as a "local free thought group" for "those without supernatural beliefs."
"I'm so appreciative of Steve," Sally Cramer, president of the 300-member Freethought Society, said Friday. "I love the message. I'm really pleased we're able to be a part of this."
At age 24, she has no way to know if it is easier for today's atheists to be "out of the closet," but she said she had encountered hostility. The mother of a previous boyfriend "wouldn't talk to me when she found out I'm an atheist," she said.
No one knows how many American adults identify themselves as being in the atheist spectrum, but surveys suggest between 4 percent and 9 percent, the lowest of any industrialized nation.
Fred Edwords, spokesman for the roughly 10,000-member American Humanist Association, said he thought it was easier for atheists and agnostics to be public than in previous decades.
"In the 1980s, people were saying we're part of a great conspiracy, trying to take over the schools and courts."
The recent spate of best-sellers bearing such titles as The God Delusion, God Is Not Great and The End of Faith suggests a broader public interest in religious skepticism, Edwords said. "But we still feel we're the last minority group it's OK to say bad things about."
Also on Pharyngula.
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Posted: Friday, June 6, 2008 | PermalinkComments 51 - 100 of 134 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers52. Comment #189762 by VanYoungman on June 7, 2008 at 7:44 am
As a Philadelphian who might like to participate more, the damned events are always scheduled past my bedtime so I always have to decline in the RSVP. Other Comments by VanYoungman
53. Comment #189764 by moderndaythomas on June 7, 2008 at 7:56 am
"In the 1980s, people were saying we're part of a great conspiracy, trying to take over the schools and courts."
Right, Regan's satellite communism. "Why should we subsidise intellectual curiosity".
Had a lady notice the Book that I was reading a couple of years ago. Sagan's "Broca's Brain". She said to me, "that's a bad book, don't read that".
She would have burned it soon as look at it and for that matter, burned me along with it, were it a different century.
Other Comments by moderndaythomas
54. Comment #189765 by Christopher Davis on June 7, 2008 at 8:02 am
"But we still feel we're the last minority group it's OK to say bad things about."---article
Sorry, not quite. In addition to homosexuals (already mentioned by a few posters) there are fat people, short people, ugly people, and poor white people from the U.S. south.
As for the concerns that some people have expressed that "uniting" or seeking out other "like-minded" individuals is church-like, lighten-up.
I've never belonged to any atheist or free-thinkers group, but when I get home I'm definitely going to seek one out. Why? Because "Hi. My name is Chris and I'm an atheist." isn't the best pick-up line in the world. I'd just as soon not waste anymore time and/or money trying to figure out if the nice young girl I just met is going to freak out when she finds out I don't believe in God.
Other Comments by Christopher Davis
55. Comment #189768 by Laurie Fraser on June 7, 2008 at 8:18 am
Epeeist,
"The religious are fully entitled to their beliefs". I get a lot of the old "Well, you can disagree with me, but I'm entitled to my opinion." This is, frankly, tosh. You are only entitled to an opinion if it is reasonable. The religious are, ipso facto, unentitled, because their reasoning is faulty. What they ARE entitled to is the opportunity to be educated - to BECOME reasonable.
(Sorry for the capitals - I don't know how to punch in italics on this site.)
P.S Steve - "Of course, the undermining of reason and rationality has a problem now for Christians in societies like that in the UK, as there are competing forms of irrationality. So, who gets to decide which form of irrationality gets to say what is "right"? " - that is a really depressing thought!!
Other Comments by Laurie Fraser
56. Comment #189770 by moderndaythomas on June 7, 2008 at 8:29 am
I'd just as soon not waste anymore time and/or money trying to figure out if the nice young girl I just met is going to freak out when she finds out I don't believe in God.
The science section in your local book store is better than the produce isle.
And frankly it's tuff shit if this site and other meeting places like it are accused of "intellectual bullying". The prerequisite here is intellectuality and if you don't have it, you're out of luck.
I find that I'm not engaged in such conversations in the flesh because the average Christian has nothing to add but faith and a little poorly managed philosophy.
Arguing with them is like trying to scratch an itch that you can't reach. You never get there and it's never satisfying.
Other Comments by moderndaythomas
57. Comment #189771 by steveroot on June 7, 2008 at 8:32 am
33. Comment #189725 by Obecalp on June 7, 2008 at 4:15 am
Great points, Steve!
Good screen name! When I was in my residency (general practice dentistry), my co-resident and I joked about prescribing Obecalp tablets and oral suspension for people who thought (wrongly) that they needed an "official" prescription. We also had an antibiotic (Placebomycin) and a local anesthetic (Placebocaine). Thanks for reminding me!
Ste5e
Other Comments by steveroot
58. Comment #189775 by blakjack on June 7, 2008 at 8:42 am
Can't for the life of me imagine a sign like that appearing in Europe
It isn't needed here. In Europe, a far greater proportion of people than in America have already "seen the light" and have abandoned religion; there's little point in advertising the obvious.
But in any case, I doubt that many give up religion because they are persuaded by others to do so. They simply work things out for themselves.
Jack Harrison
Other Comments by blakjack
59. Comment #189776 by epeeist on June 7, 2008 at 8:46 am
Comment #189768 by Laurie Fraser So if people are only entitled to an opinion if it is reasonable, then who decides what is reasonable and what isn't?
"The religious are fully entitled to their beliefs". I get a lot of the old "Well, you can disagree with me, but I'm entitled to my opinion." This is, frankly, tosh.
I wouldn't want to deny anyone the right to believe or practice those beliefs. What I would want is justification as to why those beliefs should get you, for example, 26 unelected members in the legislature or the right to indoctrinate children in schools.
As for italics - I use < em > italic text < /em > around the text I want to italicise or < strong > bold text < /text > around text I want emboldened. You will need to take out the spaces around the word inside the angle brackets to make it work.
Other Comments by epeeist
60. Comment #189777 by skyhook on June 7, 2008 at 8:50 am
9. Comment #189660 by catskill"I cant drive more than two blocks here in Tampa without passing by a church. I got a flyer yesterday for a new church that just opened up the street....."
So where is this new megachurch?
I mentioned before on another thread that Florida is the home of NASA (serious science), but has an exasperating number of chuches. Paradoxical maybe, annoying definitely! I see a total conflict here.
I live in the Temple Terrace area, how many churches?! There's a huge monstrosity on 56th St that takes up a couple of blocks. What is there for science in the area? MOSI in Tampa and G Wiz science museum in Sarasota. The odds are stacked against the indoctrinated ever getting out.
Furthermore, the number of cars with Jesus fish and similar sentiments it sickening. I've seen about 2 FSM and 2 Darwin logos in 10 months of living here. Depressing.
----------
A number of comments are about whether atheists need to get together at meetings. I have not attended a meeting but I would if the opportunity arises. Why? Because for one thing it is nice to be able to discuss your everyday experiences with like-minded folk. e.g. I love wine and would love to discuss that with people who are interested. Why not meet to talk about atheism, and opposition to the religious dominance and suppression of science?
You might also learn something as people always have different expierences, make new friends,etc. From this website and discussion boards I have understood the arguments used by religoids and how to counteract them in a more diplomatic manner then I ever did before. (I used to be somewhat of a straight-to-the-point kind of arguer, little diplomacy, very intolerant).
It's simply not the same as attending a religious meeting and going through the indoctrinating process week after week.
By definition you can't indoctrinate anyone into atheism! You arrive at or start with atheism by taking a rational point of view about your experiences in life, assessing the probability of what the religoids preach being true, etc.
Other Comments by skyhook
61. Comment #189784 by AfraidToDie on June 7, 2008 at 9:13 am
Comment #189658 by mordacious1: Free Thought Radio has a nice "Imagine No Religion" billboard that they've designed and is available to anyone who wants to pay for the placement.
What is great about Rade's message is that it is just trying to bring atheists together, or just letting them know they are not alone. That message should not resonate negatively with theists at all; it is not directed to or about them. The "Imagine No Religion", which is just fine, is much more in your face. The approach should be Rade's first, then as you organize, "Imagine" next. Brilliant!
16. Comment #189668 by sb84: What's next? Study groups for The Selfish Gene? I thought atheism was all about making up your own mind. I think this interpretation of atheism is, at its core, religious
The fact that you read and post to this site says that you are not a total loner and appreciate open minded people. That is what the billboard is offering. Even "free thinkers" still like to associate with others. Bringing "free thinkers" together does not make them "non free thinkers".
24. Comment #189686 by clearthinker: "atheists come from many different backgrounds and have many different beliefs so that the only thing that unites you is the lack of belief?"
Wrong! There is a small group of us that associate because we are free (rational) thinkers (aka atheists) that believe our minority group is the most obvious sane group. People who believe in the supernatural (the vast majority) are delusional in varying degrees. We don't band together because of lack of belief, it's because we think rational people are more trustworthy, interesting, and in general, more intelligent and well rounded. After I wrote this, I noticed several posts said it much "better" (especially 189747 SPS).
Other Comments by AfraidToDie
62. Comment #189785 by thewhitepearl on June 7, 2008 at 9:14 am
clearthinker again? *Sigh*
he makes me want to slit my throat with a butterknife.
I had a nice pleasant smile on my face; the feeling of hope... and then (insert screeching tire soundbite) dun-dun-dun I see it: Comment #189686 (insert car crash soundbite)
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
63. Comment #189789 by Steve Zara on June 7, 2008 at 9:24 am
Comment #189785 by thewhitepearlThat clearthinker feels the need to post here is a very hopeful sign. People him are now put in a defensive position.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
64. Comment #189793 by epeeist on June 7, 2008 at 9:31 am
Comment #189789 by Steve ZaraThat clearthinker feels the need to post here is a very hopeful sign. People him are now put in a defensive position.Colour me cynical, but I wonder if he is looking for new material to quote mine.
It may be worthwhile having a look at your PMs Steve if you haven't done so for a while.
Other Comments by epeeist
65. Comment #189795 by Dinah on June 7, 2008 at 9:37 am
Some people are joiners, others aren't, but I personally see nothing wrong in a group of atheists/freethinkers/sceptics meeting up to discuss issues, socialise, listen to an invited speaker or whatever. It doesn't mean they have to agree about everything (one only has to look at the number of different Christian denominations ranging from Unitarians to extreme fundamentalists to realise they've never agreed about anything much except possibly the existence of Jesus). If more atheist groups were around, who knows, they might attract some 'don't knows' and even encourage a few people to change sides particularly those whose beliefs are pretty vague and who regard church going as a mainly social activity.Other Comments by Dinah
66. Comment #189797 by Steve Zara on June 7, 2008 at 9:45 am
Comment #189793 by epeeistColour me cynical, but I wonder if he is looking for new material to quote mine.
He has then already heard of the Atheist Handbook, so I am afraid he may therefore be on to us.
It may be worthwhile having a look at your PMs Steve if you haven't done so for a while.
I did get the useful one regarding DR and his creationism outing.
I have to say it did not surprise me, although I always wonder how much of what he says is pure spin. This month, he is creationist....
Other Comments by Steve Zara
67. Comment #189798 by The Reverend Dark on June 7, 2008 at 9:45 am
Clearthinker brays his mantra; trying to equate atheism as a dogma.
If it helps you, think about it as church without the fairy tales, or need to feel guilty about what imaginary sky fairies say is naughty.
It is a social gathering. Much like church is for so many people. It is not about god, jesus, or doing pennance for touching yourself and dancing. It connects people to the community they live in. Social lubrication.
No dogma required for that. No hive mind belief in the father, the son and the fishy without legs.
I suppose hockey fans must have a dogma too, as they also congregate in large numbers. And soccer fans - with their dogmatic adherence to the hooligan, the Beckham and the holy chav.
You truly are a tiresome prat.
Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark
Other Comments by The Reverend Dark
68. Comment #189799 by Barbara on June 7, 2008 at 9:51 am
Note: I have not read all of the comments yet. I just want to add my 2 cents.
This billboard is a very good idea. Atheists who are afraid to "come out", because they suspect they will be ostracized by friends and family, need to know they are not alone. The organization of atheists, freethinkers, etc. is also a good idea even if their only goal is to demonstrate that atheism is not the evil it's so long been purported to be.
Other Comments by Barbara
69. Comment #189804 by epeeist on June 7, 2008 at 9:59 am
Comment #189798 by The Reverend DarkAnd soccer fans - with their dogmatic adherence to the hooligan, the Beckham and the holy chav.I think a cease and desist order is necessary.
Some of us are listening to Test Match Special and wondering whether New Zealand will last until stumps in the cricket match against England.
Others may follow one of the European sides in the pie-powder event that started today.
Other Comments by epeeist
70. Comment #189808 by Steve Zara on June 7, 2008 at 10:14 am
Comment #189798 by The Reverend DarkIf it helps you, think about it as church without the fairy tales, or need to feel guilty about what imaginary sky fairies say is naughty.
May I humbly suggest a correction: "we don't need to feel guilty because of what an imaginary sky fairies says." (That is not to say we won't feel guilty anyway).
Many of us probably feel guilty about the same things that sky-fairyists say we should feel guilty about, but for different reasons.
Sorry to nit pick, but your post seems to imply that we need not feel guilty about stealing, or coveting asses because the supposed sky fairy says they are wrong.
Yes, I am back and in full pedant mode!
Other Comments by Steve Zara
71. Comment #189811 by adrianrf on June 7, 2008 at 10:16 am
forgive my reposting a comment I just added on the "Religulous" movie trailer site, http://www.slashfilm.com/2008/06/06/religulous-movie-trailer/at the tail I address why atheists: a) need to get; b) and AT LAST are getting; their shit together -- despite the flailing reflex political uselessness of attitudes expressed by Apathy Personified et al.
========================
@Israel Groveman
>every single human being on the planet places their faith in something quite blindly, whether it is one God, science, environmental living, themselves, or politics.
you evidently have learned nothing about science.
the scientific method is the key principle that has driven every piece of technology that elevates your daily life from mere cave-dwelling hunter-gatherer subsistence.
formalized and refined, it is:
review of literature;
hypothesis;
prediction;
experimentation with controls;
capture & publication of objective data;
statistical analysis;
reporting both data and conclusions to peers via peer-reviewed publications.
scientists compete.
all claims are subject to open criticism in the scientific literature.
every scientist's work is open to challenge by reproduction.
"blind faith" does not enter the picture.
the only people who operate on "blind faith" are the sort of willfully ignorant idiots who allow wishful fantasy about sky fairies to drive their worldview.
unfortunately, in this country there are far too many of them, so they are blatantly pandered to by craven politicians; and they thus exert ridiculous sway over vast numbers of issues they are intellectually unqualified to address.
well, those of us with an actual grip on logic and reason have had enough of this BS. the future of the world itself is at stake.
and so we're going to dispossess you of the levers of power.
it will take several generations, but it WILL happen.
and this movie is one small part of the mounting wave.
Other Comments by adrianrf
72. Comment #189814 by Quetzalcoatl on June 7, 2008 at 10:21 am
thewhitepearl-
he makes me want to slit my throat with a butterknife
Be careful- too much exposure to him and you'll be trying it with a wooden spoon. I'm still picking the splinters out of my neck...
Steve-
he may have heard of the Atheist Handbook, but he doesn't know where to get a copy. NOBODY TELL HIM!
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
73. Comment #189817 by Donald on June 7, 2008 at 10:27 am
Is it not the oft repeated mantra that atheists do not have a creed; that atheism is just simply the lack of belief in God; that atheists come from many different backgrounds and have many different beliefs so that the only thing that unites you is the lack of belief? Then how can you have something? And what is this something - that all atheists have and others do not have? And why feel the need to organise, evangelise and behave like a religion? And why set up a website espousing atheist beliefs if there are no atheist beliefs? Surely if the only belief is the negative one of there being no God - it must get pretty boring? Unless of course - atheism is actually a religious/philosophical belief system - with its own need for support groups, self congratulatory sychophants and demonisation of oppenants. - clearthinker(David Robertson)Since David's questions are actually quite sensible, despite the tone and lightweight insults at the end, I offer an answer..
Atheists do not have a creed, that's true. But it's not true that the only thing that unites them is lack of religious belief.
Atheists share with each other and all other humans a typical innate sense of justice, fairness, and a desire to live in a society of constructive, cooperating indviduals. Atheists mostly also share with each other a resistance to power wielded by the religious deluded, and a resistance to laws and morality contaminated by beliefs about what imaginary sky fairies supposedly reward and punish humans for, in a non-existent afterlife.
Personally, I think there is a need for atheists to organise and even evangelise, until such time as non-religious education has taken over a particular role usurped by the religious, that of moral teaching. Historical tradition has left the religious to be disproportionate propagators of moral teaching to the young, with the (intended) result that religious delusions propagate along with their teaching.
I believe atheists have to unite to disconnect moral teaching from beliefs in sky fairies, because moral teaching is important, and imaginary sky fairies enable dangerous nonsense to propagate. There is also a need to replace the world's greatest social clubs (religions) with delusion-free social clubs, such as humanist societies and other delusion-free structures of social cooperation. That also requires considerable organisation, as well as initiatives from entrepeneurial individuals.
Edit: the word "mostly" added after complaint by Barry Pearson
Other Comments by Donald
74. Comment #189818 by JuxtaMonkey on June 7, 2008 at 10:27 am
Why is it that the Christians (or religious) will come into these posts, say something, then leave? It fascinates me...utterly Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
75. Comment #189820 by epeeist on June 7, 2008 at 10:28 am
Comment #189814 by Quetzalcoatl he may have heard of the Atheist Handbook, but he doesn't know where to get a copy. NOBODY TELL HIM!I left my copy on the train with a http://www.bookcrossing.com/ sticker on it. I hope it doesn't end up in Dundee.
Other Comments by epeeist
76. Comment #189822 by Quetzalcoatl on June 7, 2008 at 10:29 am
Juxtamonkey-
Why is it that the Christians (or religious) will come into these posts, say something, then leave? It fascinates me...utterly
Because that way they can feel smug about sticking it to the godless atheists, without hanging around to see their arguments ripped apart like tissue paper.
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
77. Comment #189824 by huzonfurst on June 7, 2008 at 10:33 am
I thought I had a billboard approved with a "humanist" group here in San Diego several years ago with the message "The Winter Solstice is the REAL Reason for the Season" - complete with a simple diagram of Earth's orbit and axial tilt - but as it turned out this particular group was infested with crooks (and quite possibly spies intent on causing damage) who absconded with the money, so it never happened.A San Diego suburb is the home of the Institute for Creation Research, an indication of what we're up against in this corner of the Buybullverse. I still think it's a good way to counter these obnoxious "Jesus is the Reason" billboards that show up every year, though.
Now is the time for someone out there to give this another try. I went as far as getting a nonprofit rate for six billboards around town before the money was "redirected" by the dirtbags in our midst.
Other Comments by huzonfurst
78. Comment #189825 by JuxtaMonkey on June 7, 2008 at 10:35 am
TitaniaI live in the south as well! And yes, everyone assumes you believe in God!
I think RD has it right, there is a sort of belief there is NO god, just like most people believe there is no Fairies or pink unicorns...or white ones for that matter. Yeah, there is a belief thing going on...there has to be, but it is my thinking that worshiping a god is like playing the lottery, it costs a whole lot and in the end you have to bite the bullet anyway...it's just improbable and forcing it down my throat makes me recent other's imaginary friend
Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
79. Comment #189827 by JuxtaMonkey on June 7, 2008 at 10:39 am
QuetzalcoatlMy esteemed god side kick! Muah! See the new picture...that's me walking past a church, tongue in cheek. Heehee...surprisingly no lightening bolt insurance was needed
Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
80. Comment #189830 by Quetzalcoatl on June 7, 2008 at 10:42 am
Juxtamonkey-
My esteemed god side kick! Muah!
How you been, Juxta? You don't call, you don't write, then you reappear one day with a strange lump on the side of your mouth. What's up with that? :)
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
81. Comment #189832 by JuxtaMonkey on June 7, 2008 at 10:46 am
Your telepathy must be broken, Santa's elves are in that fixing department, right by Venus' Brothel! Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
82. Comment #189837 by Quetzalcoatl on June 7, 2008 at 10:52 am
Juxta-
I fired the elves, they were spending too much time in the brothel and not enough time fixing things. Of course no lightning bolt protection was needed, that yellow-eared poltroon Yahweh would never dare zap one half of the God-God!
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83. Comment #189840 by Barry Pearson on June 7, 2008 at 10:55 am
clearthinker asked: I must be missing something. Is it not the oft repeated mantra that atheists do not have a creed; that atheism is just simply the lack of belief in God; that atheists come from many different backgrounds and have many different beliefs so that the only thing that unites you is the lack of belief?Correct - the only safe generalisation about atheists is that we don't believe in gods.
And there are logical consequences of that generalisation which also hold, such as: we never justify what we do with "I thought I was doing God's will". We never excuse our errors with "Satan (or the devil) made me do it".
AfraidToDie said: Wrong! There is a small group of us that associate because we are free (rational) thinkers (aka atheists) that believe our minority group is the most obvious sane group. People who believe in the supernatural (the vast majority) are delusional in varying degrees. We don't band together because of lack of belief, it's because we think rational people are more trustworthy, interesting, and in general, more intelligent and well rounded. After I wrote this, I noticed several posts said it much "better" (especially 189747 SPS).clearthinker was talking about atheists in general, and for that scope the part of his statement that you quoted was correct.
You appear to be talking about a subset of atheists, and while you are presumably correct for that subset, you haven't refuted clearthinker's subset statement.
clearthinker asked: And what is this something - that all atheists have and others do not have? And why feel the need to organise, evangelise and behave like a religion? And why set up a website espousing atheist beliefs if there are no atheist beliefs? Surely if the only belief is the negative one of there being no God - it must get pretty boring? Unless of course - atheism is actually a religious/philosophical belief system - with its own need for support groups, self congratulatory sychophants and demonisation of oppenants. Well thankfully RD net will never go down the route of exploiting peoples fears by selling t-shirts, books and marketing slogans!As you said yourself, the only safe generalisation about atheists is that we don't believe in gods.
Within that group are good people and bad people. Left wing and right wing people. People who want to organise and those who are content to stay apart from organisation. People who go to church each Sunday (sometimes as a vicar or other preacher) and people who dislike organised religion. People who openly self-identify as atheists, and people who hide it from everyone, especially their parents.
Donald said: Atheists do not have a creed, that's true. But it's not true that the only thing that unites them is lack of religious belief. Atheists share with each other and all other humans a typical innate sense of justice, fairness, and a desire to live in a society of constructive, cooperating indviduals. Atheists also share with each other a resistance to power wielded by the religious deluded, and a resistance to laws and morality contaminated by beliefs about what imaginary sky fairies supposedly reward and punish humans for, in a non-existent afterlife.That first sentence IS the only thing that unites atheists. The rest may apply to many, perhaps even a majority, but it would be wishful thinking, not supported by evidence, that ALL atheists share what you claim.
I wish both atheists and non-atheists would stop making generalisations about atheists that they can't supply logic or evidence for. "Atheist" is simply the word in the English language that is a useful label for people who don't believe in gods. Just as "bald" is the simply the word in the English language that is a useful label for people with little or no hair on their heads. Beyond that, atheists can fall into various (overlapping) subsets.
Other Comments by Barry Pearson
84. Comment #189861 by Apathy personified on June 7, 2008 at 11:42 am
adrianrf;First, thanks for inflating my already oversized ego by saying, 'Apathy personified et al.', although i thought my post was probably the least coherent of those expressing reservations about 'athiest clubs' (name used for sake of argument, not to make any point).
Second, my point was that i'm uneasy with the concept of those clubs, not that i'm necessarily against them totally (i probably didn't make that clear in my post - sorry, my error). I think i explained why i'm against the idea, but if it's not clear i'm happy to clarify.
I agree that we need to stop the well financed and powerful religious lobbies from getting law changes to suit them and undermine everything that is good about modern societies.
I live in Britain, so my perspective may be different from yours, but i don't at the moment feel the need to join a club because of a belief i don't possess, but it's not inconceivable that i would join one in the future.
Other Comments by Apathy personified
85. Comment #189898 by swingstar73 on June 7, 2008 at 1:39 pm
I see this sign every time i drive to rehearse with my band. When i saw it, it was the 'atheist's miracle'.... It is so nice to know that i'm not the only atheist around, cause it certainly feels that way, just about all the time. Good work!Other Comments by swingstar73
86. Comment #189906 by Barry Pearson on June 7, 2008 at 2:03 pm
I wonder whether it is possible to introduce a meme "religions are hobbies" into the meme-pool?
http://www.richarddawkins.net/articleComments,2682,A-word-for-nonbelievers,David-OReilly-Philadelpha-Inquirer,page1#189733
I'll have a go; there is a (tiny) comment from me in the Times today. (You'll have to search for it!):
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/politics/article4083979.ece
Religious practices are hobbies. They should have special privileges to the same extent that other hobbies have them.EDIT: I've tried the same in The Telegraph:
Should we have a minister for train spotting? Should we automatically give seats in the House of Lords to senior members of flower arranging and photography societies?
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/yourview/2088612/Is-Christianity-being-discriminated-against.html
Religious practices are hobbies. They should have special privileges to the same extent that other hobbies have them. It is when people of specific religions try to claim more privileges than other hobbies have that atheists and people of other religions tend to object.
Should we have a minister for train spotting? Should we automatically give seats in the House of Lords to senior members of flower arranging and photography societies? Should the media always consult gardeners on moral issues? Given that 1000s of gods are worshipped in the world, and 1000s of religions are practised, how far can they all be catered for?
They can't all be catered for, and there is no justification for treating any one of them as more "true" than any other. (While the UK has historically been Christian, that is not a reason for saying that Christianity is true! Many of us believe that none of them are). So religions need to be private matters. That includes Islam, which must not be allowed to bypass the law of the land, nor impose rules on the rest of us.
Other Comments by Barry Pearson
87. Comment #189908 by thewhitepearl on June 7, 2008 at 2:15 pm
Comment #189818 by JuxtaMonkey :
"Why is it that the Christians (or religious) will come into these posts, say something, then leave? It fascinates me...utterly"
It's even worse when they do it and then entice you with a link to their personal blogging site. A personal blogging site that I might add bashes the RD site and begs for someone to rip the blogger a new ass.
Which is precisely what happened.
Other Comments by thewhitepearl
88. Comment #189949 by JuxtaMonkey on June 7, 2008 at 9:33 pm
thewhitepearl,Nice! I wonder if I went on to his blog site and left a little comment if it will be there in there in the morning? Muhahahahahaha
Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
89. Comment #189951 by JuxtaMonkey on June 7, 2008 at 9:46 pm
thewhitepearl, I know I misunderstood something! I couldn't find his link anywhere. I was going to leave a comment but it's just as well anyway. Don't want to nag the little kid on. =P
Other Comments by JuxtaMonkey
90. Comment #189962 by JD Cherry on June 8, 2008 at 12:07 am
I can honestly understand why people might react adversely to my stating my atheism. I say "Well, no I don't believe in God", and they hear "The universe is pointless and death is the end. By the way you're a bloody fool and have been wasting your life and lying to your children".
Honestly, when I admit it to others I feel like I'm admitting that I've done something wrong, even though everyone I've told has been totally fine with it, at least outwardly.
Other Comments by JD Cherry
91. Comment #189972 by clearthinker on June 8, 2008 at 1:52 am
Steve,I am intrigued by your comparison between atheists and homosexuals. I’m afraid it does not work for me. If the only atheist belief is that there as no gods and that there are no atheist beliefs/creed/philosophy " as I am continually told " then it is very different from homosexuality. I am assuming that a homosexual would not say that they did not have a philosophy or belief " they are not for example asexual. Most homosexuals I know would describle their homosexuality as something that they are, or that they have made a positive choice to be. A homosexual is not someone whose raison d’etre is that they do not believe in something.
It's time for atheists to "come out of the closet" in the way that gays did in the 70s. That's all we are doing by getting together; we are just recognising that our numbers are far larger than any one of us as individuals had ever imagined. That's not religion - that's ENLIGHTENMENT
Dr Jonesz " Yes of course you are more than many people think. You have basically been controlling the Western and Chinese world in the name of Enlightenment for the past 100 years. Anyway perhaps it is time you came ‘out of the closet’ and let your light shine. After all up until now atheists have been quiet, hiding and afraid. Perhaps you could write a book " lets call it ‘The God Delusion’? Perhaps you should get yourselves a name. I don’t know…how about The Brights? That should be self effacing enough and doubtless will catch on.
One finds considerable opposition to promoting "reason" in public discourse, I have found (someone in a thread actually called this "intellectual bullying"). But, when one thinks about it, how else are we to manage our societies fairly? The alternatives include listening to those who threaten, or shout the loudest, or just to go along with the majority because they are the majority.
Steve,
I totally agree. I have often tried to promote reason and find that it is often met with abuse, ridicule and bold unevidenced statements of faith.
33. Comment #189725 by Obecalp
Would love to read a reply from 'clearthinker'
Really? I think I would rather hang by my testicles in the garden than have to listen to another essay of befuddled mental gymnastics by Mr Robertson.
See " here is my problem. There is this division in the atheist camp; those who complain if one does not respond in great detail to every post and those who complain if one writes at all. Dammed if you do and dammed if you don’t. Psychoanalysed if you do and psychoanalysed if you don’t. Ridiculed if you do and ridiculed if you don’t. Either way it must be reassuring to the faithful to be able write off any heretic as a bastard.
As far as I know, good legal systems are based on reason.
Actually good legal systems are based on law and justice. The British and American legal systems are based upon Christian principles of law and justice. What would you base law and justice on? Or do you believe in a universe where there is no justice?
Not going to happen. The illustrious David Robertson now confines himself to making hit and run comments in which he merely repeats all his old favourite claims without bothering with something as insignificant as substantiating them.
oh dear Q " wrong again. How do you explain this one?
Oh come off it. I have plenty of core beliefs, and so do, I am sure, most people here. They are the core beliefs of most decent people. Atheism has nothing to do with it.
The issue is whether or not those core beliefs can be, or are, derived from atheism.
Indeed. If atheism is simply the absence of belief with no philosophical or practical consequences, then it cannot be a motive for bad behaviour or good. Which then leaves us in a free for all. Please define what you mean by ‘decent’ and why your definition of decent should be the one that everyone has to adhere to?However, the basic acceptance of "God" was always a given.
Epeeist - And now the basic non acceptance of God is a ‘given’ in many areas of society. Such unthinking atheism is based upon a series of myths which are swalloed wholesale by atheists.Mob mentality can work in many ways and i fear that sometimes the talk of mass organisation of athiests can only lead down a similar path.
Apathy " spot on. It is already happening.Maybe I need to become more shrill and arrogant. Any advice, Carto?
Read The God Delusion?"The religious are fully entitled to their beliefs". I get a lot of the old "Well, you can disagree with me, but I'm entitled to my opinion." This is, frankly, tosh. You are only entitled to an opinion if it is reasonable. The religious are, ipso facto, unentitled, because their reasoning is faulty. What they ARE entitled to is the opportunity to be educated - to BECOME reasonable.
Laurie " is this what Steve means by reasonable? We are only entitled to an opinion if it is reasonable " and anyone religious is by definition not reasonable. Way to go! Reeducate the believers. Make them ‘reasonable’. Don’t let them vote until they become reasonable. Is this the ‘decency’ Steve is speaking about?And frankly it's tuff shit if this site and other meeting places like it are accused of "intellectual bullying". The prerequisite here is intellectuality and if you don't have it, you're out of luck.
I find that I'm not engaged in such conversations in the flesh because the average Christian has nothing to add but faith and a little poorly managed philosophy.
Arguing with them is like trying to scratch an itch that you can't reach. You never get there and it's never satisfying.
Another gem of reason and rationality. Little wonder that you have so much difficulty discussing. Maybe you’re out of luck?By definition you can't indoctrinate anyone into atheism! You
Hilarious! Another unevidenced illogical unproven statement of faith. The wish is father to the thought.Wrong! There is a small group of us that associate because we are free (rational) thinkers (aka atheists) that believe our minority group is the most obvious sane group. People who believe in the supernatural (the vast majority) are delusional in varying degrees. We don't band together because of lack of belief, it's because we think rational people are more trustworthy, interesting, and in general, more intelligent and well rounded.
Afraid to die " Of course. Only atheists are rational and non-deluded. You are more trustworthy, interesting and more intelligent and well rounded! Of course. Its so obvious. Why can’t everyone see it? Because we are deluded. Have you ever read the story of the Emperor’s New Clothes?clearthinker again? *Sigh*
he makes me want to slit my throat with a butterknife.
I had a nice pleasant smile on my face; the feeling of hope... and then (insert screeching tire soundbite) dun-dun-dun I see it: Comment #189686 (insert car crash soundbite)
Whitepearl " I know. Its really annoying when someone wakes you up from your dream. Welcome to reality.I did get the useful one regarding DR and his creationism outing.
I have to say it did not surprise me, although I always wonder how much of what he says is pure spin. This month, he is creationist....
Unfortunately Steve " that one was wrong too. You don’t need PM’s to ‘out me’. Just read what I have written. I have always made my position clear.Atheists do not have a creed, that's true. But it's not true that the only thing that unites them is lack of religious belief.
Thanks Donald. That is what I have been trying to say. Lets see what unites you then.Atheists share with each other and all other humans a typical innate sense of justice, fairness, and a desire to live in a society of constructive, cooperating indviduals.
Is this the Disney version of atheism? Its certainly very sweet " and totally unevidenced. In fact it is empirically false. Did Hitler (as a human being " not an atheist) share a desire to live in a society of constructive, co-operative individuals? Do all other human beings share that? An innate sense of justice in a universe where there is no justice? Where do you get that fantasy from? And what do you mean by fairness? Your statement is meaningless fluff.Atheists mostly also share with each other a resistance to power wielded by the religious deluded, and a resistance to laws and morality contaminated by beliefs about what imaginary sky fairies supposedly reward and punish humans for, in a non-existent afterlife.
Of course atheists are against power…you can tell that by their history! And where are you going to get your absolute morals from? Surely not the fluff espoused above?Why is it that the Christians (or religious) will come into these posts, say something, then leave? It fascinates me...utterly
Now you can ask yourself another question. Why do some Christians keep coming back for more?Because that way they can feel smug about sticking it to the godless atheists, without hanging around to see their arguments ripped apart like tissue paper.
Q " dream on! Still waiting…..I know I misunderstood something! I couldn't find his link anywhere. I was going to leave a comment but it's just as well anyway. Don't want to nag the little kid on.
Of course you couldn’t. Because the white pearl was telling wee porkies. I did not leave a link to a personal blogging site, nor my own site. In fact on this thread (and most I have not left a link at all). But then don’t let truth get in way of a good rant!Honestly, when I admit it to others I feel like I'm admitting that I've done something wrong, even though everyone I've told has been totally fine with it, at least outwardly.
JD Cherry " your post makes a lot of sense. Maybe you feel like that because there is something wrong? Perhaps atheism is after the delusion which makes you less human rather than more human? Worth investigating.
Other Comments by clearthinker
92. Comment #189973 by irate_atheist on June 8, 2008 at 2:08 am
91. Comment #189972 by clearthinker -
David Robertson - How's your chequebook?
Other Comments by irate_atheist
93. Comment #189977 by hungarianelephant on June 8, 2008 at 2:53 am
91. Comment #189972 by clearthinker on June 8, 2008 at 1:52 amActually good legal systems are based on law and justice. The British and American legal systems are based upon Christian principles of law and justice.
Evidence, please.
And good luck showing that there is even such a thing as the "British" legal system. As a good Scot, you ought to know better.
Other Comments by hungarianelephant
94. Comment #189979 by irate_atheist on June 8, 2008 at 3:03 am
91. Comment #189972 by clearthinker -
Sorry - I forgot to say - what a change it is to see you posting yet another end-to-end bollocks-fest. [/sarcasm]
Other Comments by irate_atheist
95. Comment #189981 by The Reverend Dark on June 8, 2008 at 3:37 am
Actually good legal systems are based on law and justice. The British and American legal systems are based upon Christian principles of law and justice.
More towards the systems of the Romans and the Greeks which codified certain rights that are pretty much absent from early Jewish jurisprudence.
Cheers,
The Reverend Shayne Dark
Other Comments by The Reverend Dark
96. Comment #189982 by AllanW on June 8, 2008 at 4:02 am
epeeist was right; expect to see some of the more thoughtless comments on this thread used by the duplicitous liar Robertson in other fora.By the way, Robertson, passed any dud cheques lately?
And just so that I don't get accused of dealing solely in ad homs (you as a proven liar and dissembler deserve nothing else from this site) I'll address the few substantive points you made in your rambling, breast-beating, sighing and oh so pained post.
Clearthinker; 'If the only atheist belief is that there as no gods and that there are no atheist beliefs/creed/philosophy " as I am continually told " then it is very different from homosexuality.'
I'll leave others to speak from their own perspective but are you seriously doubting that there is no atheist creed? Time and time again it has been demonstrated (repeatedly on this thread even) that people who have no belief in gods hold widely divergent views on other matters. Are you then really saying that all homosexuals think alike about all things? I think you are and thereby reveal your complete misunderstanding about the diversity of human experience. I'll let Steve Zara or Cartomancer eviscerate your plainly homophobic views that homosexuals think, act and speak with one voice.
Clearthinker; 'I totally agree. I have often tried to promote reason and find that it is often met with abuse, ridicule and bold unevidenced statements of faith.'
Oh hahahaha. This stands on it's own as an indictment of your nonsense. You admitted to being a Creationist lately which is the very essence of unreason.
Clearthinker; 'Actually good legal systems are based on law and justice. The British and American legal systems are based upon Christian principles of law and justice.'
You idiot. A more nonsensical statement is hard to find. 'Good' legal systems? As in ones you like? What about the legal systems of other countries, hmm? And the concepts of law and justice are Christian now are they? Despite the obvious fact that laws and justice have existed for millennia before Christ or his apologists. Get a grip.
Back to my main point; passed any dud cheques lately?
Other Comments by AllanW
97. Comment #189983 by Steve Zara on June 8, 2008 at 4:04 am
Comment #189972 by clearthinkerI wasn't going to reply, but one statement was so hilarious....
If atheism is simply the absence of belief with no philosophical or practical consequences, then it cannot be a motive for bad behaviour or good. Which then leaves us in a free for all.
Does your lack of belief in elves leave you in an ethical free for all?
I suspect you don't believe in fairies, or goblins either. I just go a bit further than you.
Incidentally, a firm statement of your disbelief in elves would be appreciated.
Unfortunately Steve " that one was wrong too. .... Just read what I have written. I have always made my position clear.
You have posted here that current biological thinking on evolution is questionable.
That is dirty creationist talk.
Other Comments by Steve Zara
98. Comment #189984 by Apathy personified on June 8, 2008 at 4:08 am
Hahaha, clearmind, how long did that take you? How is it that you managed to post such a long comment, yet say nothing constructive and only add unfounded points?
Actually good legal systems are based on law and justice. The British and American legal systems are based upon Christian principles of law and justice.
Which Christian principles? From what i hear they are very contradictory, compare the old and new testaments maybe, also, does the Spanish inquisition count?
Other Comments by Apathy personified
99. Comment #189987 by Brian English on June 8, 2008 at 4:19 am
I wouldn't want to deny anyone the right to believe or practice those beliefs.
Epeeist, this hangs on how you define right. If you define the right to have certain beliefs on the same level as the right to not be killed then it's impossible. There's no duty for anybody to respect the opinion of others whilst in (some) society there is a duty not to murder your compatriots.....
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100. Comment #189989 by Quetzalcoatl on June 8, 2008 at 4:26 am
oh dear Q " wrong again
"Again"? When was I wrong before?
Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
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51. Comment #189761 by BeyondBelief on June 7, 2008 at 7:42 am
Steve, I think you said it all, and said it best:
Why should atheists organize? To jointly demand participation without discrimination.
We need to get to a day when it will be as abhorrent to dismiss/discriminate against an atheist by referring to their atheism, as it has become abhorrent to dismiss/discriminate against a gay person simply because they are gay.
We need to organize to demand, that the society and government ostensibly serving ALL citizens stop behaving in ways that marginalize, oppress, or discriminate against the substantial portion of its membership that does not believe in God. We need to regularly demand that our "society of laws" be built upon reason, and the negotiation/participation of all society members... not on faith.
Frankly, in this regard religion is acting like a bully. As long as those picked on cower silently and allow the bullying to continue, it will continue. Asking each individual to stand up, one at a time and face the bully is ineffective.
Can we organize over what we DO have in common? Can we simply agree that we all desire to NOT be marginalized over a common genetic trait that is not a choice. :-) I'm an atheist. I was born this way.
Wasting time disagreeing over all the other dross allows us to continue to self-destruct and be pushed farther and farther from participating in forming our societies the way we would imagine them.
Steve Z... you're on the right track.
Other Comments by BeyondBelief