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The Mother, The Child, The School Board And The Psychic
by CityNews Staff
Reposted from:
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_23845.aspx
Colleen Leduc already had a lot going against her. The Barrie woman was holding down a job while struggling to raise her autistic 11-year-old daughter. She couldn't afford to give the child the intensive therapy she needed, and was forced to send her to a public school in the area.
So she was completely unprepared for what happened to her and the youngster, an almost unbelievable tale of red tape involving a strange claim from a teaching assistant, a bizarre decision by a school board, a visit from the Children's Aid Society (CAS) and most improbably of all, the incorrect pronouncements of a psychic.
Leduc's weird tale began on May 30, when she dropped young Victoria off for class at Terry Fox Elementary and headed in to work, only to receive a frantic phone call from the school telling her it was urgent she come back right away.
The frightened mother rushed back to the campus and was stunned by what she heard - the principal, vice-principal and her daughter's teacher were all waiting for her in the office, telling her they'd received allegations that Victoria had been the victim of sexual abuse - and that the CAS had been notified.
How did they come by such startling knowledge? Leduc was incredulous as they poured out their story.
"The teacher looked and me and said: 'We have to tell you something. The educational assistant who works with Victoria went to see a psychic last night, and the psychic asked the educational assistant at that particular time if she works with a little girl by the name of "V." And she said 'yes, I do.' And she said, 'well, you need to know that that child is being sexually abused by a man between the ages of 23 and 26.'"
Victoria, who is non-verbal, had also been exhibiting sexualized behaviour in class, actions which are known to be typical of autistic behavior. That lead authorities to suspect she had a bladder infection that may have somehow been related to the 'attack.'
Leduc was shaken by the idea. "It's actually your worst nightmare your child being violated," she admits. "So for them to even suggest that, and that be my worst nightmare, it was horrific."
But things got worse when school officials used the "evidence" and accepted the completely unsubstantiated word of the seer by reporting the case to Children's Aid, which promptly opened a file on the family.
"They reported me to Children's Aid," Leduc declares, still disbelieving. "Based on a psychic!"
The mom, who is divorced and has a new fiancé, adamantly denied the charges, noting her daughter was never exposed to anyone of that age. And fortunately she had proof. The mother was long dissatisfied with the treatment her daughter had received at the school, after they had allegedly lost her on several occasions.
As a result, the already cash strapped mom had spent a considerable sum of money to not only have her child equipped with a GPS unit, but one that provided audio records of everything that was going on around her.
So she had non-stop taped proof that nothing untoward had ever happened to her daughter, and was aghast that the situation had gone this far. But under the Child and Family Services Act, anyone who works with children and has reasonable grounds to suspect a youngster is being harmed, must report it immediately - and the CAS has an obligation to follow up.
And so a case worker came to the Leduc home to discuss the allegations of sexual misconduct, only to admit there wasn't a shred of evidence that anything had ever happened at all. They labelled Leduc a "diligent" mother doing the best she could for her child under difficult circumstances, closed the file and left, calling the report "ridiculous."
"It is highly unusual, I will admit, to have a case called in based upon what a psychic might say," concedes Sue Dale of the Simcoe County CAS.
And what does the admittedly red-faced school board have to say about all this? "I don't have the information yet, but when we proceed with our own investigation we'll know more about that," is all Dr. Lindy Zaretsky, the Simcoe County Superintendent, was willing to allow.
And what does the local board have to say about all this? "I don't have the information yet, but when we proceed with our own investigation we'll know more about that," is all Dr. Lindy Zaretsky, the Simcoe County Superintendent, was willing to allow.
But that wasn't the end of the story.
While the board agrees it may have overreacted, accepted a rather dubious source and misinterpreted the signs of the so-called abuse, Leduc is now more convinced than ever that her daughter isn't safe at the campus and that she needs more intensive therapy.
As a result, she's refused to send Victoria back to class - or to the educational assistant who allegedly started the entire chain of events in the first place.
As a result of her stress and the need to stay home with her daughter, Leduc is now unable to work, has no place to send her child for the rest of the year, isn't sure where she'll go when school begins in September and is seeking legal advice.
Her goal: get the board to pay for the IBI therapy she believes her child should have had in the first place. She wants them to foot the bill for the expensive treatment - it can cost more than $50,000 annually - at least for the rest of the semester.
But school officials have refused.
Asked if she feels whether her entire support system has been yanked away, her answer is succinct and simple. "Yep," she nods.
And you don't need a psychic to know what that answer means.
http://www.citynews.ca/news/news_23845.aspx
Colleen Leduc already had a lot going against her. The Barrie woman was holding down a job while struggling to raise her autistic 11-year-old daughter. She couldn't afford to give the child the intensive therapy she needed, and was forced to send her to a public school in the area.
So she was completely unprepared for what happened to her and the youngster, an almost unbelievable tale of red tape involving a strange claim from a teaching assistant, a bizarre decision by a school board, a visit from the Children's Aid Society (CAS) and most improbably of all, the incorrect pronouncements of a psychic.
Leduc's weird tale began on May 30, when she dropped young Victoria off for class at Terry Fox Elementary and headed in to work, only to receive a frantic phone call from the school telling her it was urgent she come back right away.
The frightened mother rushed back to the campus and was stunned by what she heard - the principal, vice-principal and her daughter's teacher were all waiting for her in the office, telling her they'd received allegations that Victoria had been the victim of sexual abuse - and that the CAS had been notified.
How did they come by such startling knowledge? Leduc was incredulous as they poured out their story.
"The teacher looked and me and said: 'We have to tell you something. The educational assistant who works with Victoria went to see a psychic last night, and the psychic asked the educational assistant at that particular time if she works with a little girl by the name of "V." And she said 'yes, I do.' And she said, 'well, you need to know that that child is being sexually abused by a man between the ages of 23 and 26.'"
Victoria, who is non-verbal, had also been exhibiting sexualized behaviour in class, actions which are known to be typical of autistic behavior. That lead authorities to suspect she had a bladder infection that may have somehow been related to the 'attack.'
Leduc was shaken by the idea. "It's actually your worst nightmare your child being violated," she admits. "So for them to even suggest that, and that be my worst nightmare, it was horrific."
But things got worse when school officials used the "evidence" and accepted the completely unsubstantiated word of the seer by reporting the case to Children's Aid, which promptly opened a file on the family.
"They reported me to Children's Aid," Leduc declares, still disbelieving. "Based on a psychic!"
The mom, who is divorced and has a new fiancé, adamantly denied the charges, noting her daughter was never exposed to anyone of that age. And fortunately she had proof. The mother was long dissatisfied with the treatment her daughter had received at the school, after they had allegedly lost her on several occasions.
As a result, the already cash strapped mom had spent a considerable sum of money to not only have her child equipped with a GPS unit, but one that provided audio records of everything that was going on around her.
So she had non-stop taped proof that nothing untoward had ever happened to her daughter, and was aghast that the situation had gone this far. But under the Child and Family Services Act, anyone who works with children and has reasonable grounds to suspect a youngster is being harmed, must report it immediately - and the CAS has an obligation to follow up.
And so a case worker came to the Leduc home to discuss the allegations of sexual misconduct, only to admit there wasn't a shred of evidence that anything had ever happened at all. They labelled Leduc a "diligent" mother doing the best she could for her child under difficult circumstances, closed the file and left, calling the report "ridiculous."
"It is highly unusual, I will admit, to have a case called in based upon what a psychic might say," concedes Sue Dale of the Simcoe County CAS.
And what does the admittedly red-faced school board have to say about all this? "I don't have the information yet, but when we proceed with our own investigation we'll know more about that," is all Dr. Lindy Zaretsky, the Simcoe County Superintendent, was willing to allow.
And what does the local board have to say about all this? "I don't have the information yet, but when we proceed with our own investigation we'll know more about that," is all Dr. Lindy Zaretsky, the Simcoe County Superintendent, was willing to allow.
But that wasn't the end of the story.
While the board agrees it may have overreacted, accepted a rather dubious source and misinterpreted the signs of the so-called abuse, Leduc is now more convinced than ever that her daughter isn't safe at the campus and that she needs more intensive therapy.
As a result, she's refused to send Victoria back to class - or to the educational assistant who allegedly started the entire chain of events in the first place.
As a result of her stress and the need to stay home with her daughter, Leduc is now unable to work, has no place to send her child for the rest of the year, isn't sure where she'll go when school begins in September and is seeking legal advice.
Her goal: get the board to pay for the IBI therapy she believes her child should have had in the first place. She wants them to foot the bill for the expensive treatment - it can cost more than $50,000 annually - at least for the rest of the semester.
But school officials have refused.
Asked if she feels whether her entire support system has been yanked away, her answer is succinct and simple. "Yep," she nods.
And you don't need a psychic to know what that answer means.
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Posted: Thursday, June 19, 2008 | PermalinkComments 1 - 50 of 87 |
Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers2. Comment #195971 by BaRaKa_ on June 19, 2008 at 6:20 am
What if mrs Leduc wouldn't have the tapes ??Other Comments by BaRaKa_
3. Comment #195974 by schmeer on June 19, 2008 at 6:28 am
This psychic should be charged. They may have to settle for slander or something less than he/she deserves, but justice calls for a conviction.Other Comments by schmeer
4. Comment #195976 by al-rawandi on June 19, 2008 at 6:28 am
I sense..... a presence.... a presence of.... bull shit. Other Comments by al-rawandi
5. Comment #195977 by Barbara on June 19, 2008 at 6:29 am
There's been so much worry over keeping religion out of our schools. And, now we have to worry about psychics too. Next, it'll be voodoo, or ghosts roaming around the classrooms. When will the insanity stop? This is depressing. Other Comments by Barbara
6. Comment #195979 by debaser71 on June 19, 2008 at 6:31 am
Is CAS like Child Protective Services? NEver ever get involved with them. You get perma marked even if it's found out that nothing wrong is going on.The idea of CPS coming and taking my kids based on some moron's supernatural convictions is a nightmare scenerio that has happened in the past. In the 1980's there was this whole big satanism scare with folk having all these supposed "repressed memories" coming back. Anyway folk would claim they were abused by family and friends (in satanic rituals) and families were broken up, cops called, children taken away, etc, etc. This, as a father of three young daughters, infuriates me. That's it's so damn easy to accuse people of whatever and have their kids taken from them. ... one time one of my daughters was havign trouble falling asleep so she was crying at night, someone called the cops and I have cops knocking at my door at 1am and doing surprise follow up visits...fuck that shit.
/angry!
Other Comments by debaser71
7. Comment #195980 by Mr.satan on June 19, 2008 at 6:31 am
Once again I am ashamed to be Canadian. Other Comments by Mr.satan
8. Comment #195984 by leodavinci on June 19, 2008 at 6:37 am
Someone needs to walk up behind the psychic and smack her in the back of the head - "didn't see that coming did you, now go out and get a real job you leech" (oh shit, the word leech just lost all meaning to me)I wonder if you could be prosecuted for hitting a psychic? It would make a good court case , although i reckon you'd eventually serve time, but it would also have to discredit psychics to get to that point, anyone wanna kamikaze mission?
Other Comments by leodavinci
9. Comment #195986 by Apathy personified on June 19, 2008 at 6:41 am
Oh for the love of dog,The children are being taught by these people....
Doesn't bode well for the future i'm afraid
Other Comments by Apathy personified
10. Comment #195988 by Naranja Mecanica on June 19, 2008 at 6:41 am
"But under the Child and Family Services Act, anyone who works with children and has reasonable grounds to suspect a youngster is being harmed, must report it immediately - and the CAS has an obligation to follow up."So 'reasonable grounds' now constitutes the unsubstantiated ramblings of a 'psychic'? Man alive.
Other Comments by Naranja Mecanica
11. Comment #195989 by clatz on June 19, 2008 at 6:42 am
For me this is one of those annoying articles that raises more questions than it answers.
Presumably the mother is mainly worried about the child going missing again? Surely not that the school were worried her daughter is being sexually molestered (even if it's for a stupid reason).
The mom, who is divorced and has a new fiancé, adamantly denied the charges, noting her daughter was never exposed to anyone of that age. And fortunately she had proof. The mother was long dissatisfied with the treatment her daughter had received at the school, after they had allegedly lost her on several occasions
That's the crux of the story, either the child has been lost or not. On what grounds have the claims been made and by whom?
Other Comments by clatz
12. Comment #195990 by Philip1978 on June 19, 2008 at 6:44 am
So if the teacher had receive the message from Yahweh or a priest telling her Yahweh had told him, I wonder how much more seriously this would have been taken?This stuff makes me sick, as if the poor woman has not got enough to deal with, how cruel are these people?
Other Comments by Philip1978
13. Comment #195991 by skip on June 19, 2008 at 6:45 am
I am quite embarassed by this type of Canadian news. Oh...Canada.
This womans life has been unnecessarily disrupted by another overly militant government agency.
Wait I have an Idea! She should get the Ontario Human rights agency to investigate this case! Instead of protecting muslims from frivolous "insults" they could do some real work protecting Canadians from idiots like the psychic, teachers aid and the school board who filed this unsupported claim of abuse. (who should lose her job!)
Other Comments by skip
14. Comment #195994 by Quetzalcoatl on June 19, 2008 at 6:52 am
The stupidity of this "educational assistant" beggars belief. She sounds like exactly the sort of bright spark that you would want teaching your children! Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl
15. Comment #195995 by Ian Bamlett on June 19, 2008 at 6:55 am
Comment #195980 by Mr.satan on June 19
Once again I am ashamed to be Canadian
A little unfair. Ashamed to be human would be my revision. Although, I seriously doubt that this would ever had seen the inside of courtroom.
Other Comments by Ian Bamlett
16. Comment #196001 by clatz on June 19, 2008 at 7:08 am
The initial reason for the sexual claim to be raised is obviously stupid, we can all agree on that. I would dearly love to see the board, the substitute teacher and especially the psychic held to account.
However, they can still argue that there were grounds to contact the CPS, even if they are weak and ill informed:
Victoria, who is non-verbal, had also been exhibiting sexualized behaviour in class, actions which are known to be typical of autistic behavior. That lead authorities to suspect she had a bladder infection that may have somehow been related to the 'attack.'
I sincerely hope she hasn't dug herself into a very big hole.
Other Comments by clatz
17. Comment #196003 by Border Collie on June 19, 2008 at 7:09 am
I used to work with/teach autistic kids. Raising an autistic child is hell. I would see parents age a decade in a year. And, now, this woman has to deal with these school idiots also. Their whole game was probably forcing the child out of the school because they didn't want to deal with her. This sort of wacko behavior occurs alot with schools and other institutions when dealing with children with severe problems. They know that the parents are on the edge of hopelessness and are very fragile all the time anyway and they know that sometimes just a little weird push will get the child and the parent to "just go away". Pathetic. Psychic, my ass. They might have just made the psychic thing up.Other Comments by Border Collie
18. Comment #196009 by DamnDirtyApe on June 19, 2008 at 7:41 am
My Nephew has Aspergers. His behaviour can raise... problems. Fortunately his mum's wise to it and the school does not employ psychics. Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
19. Comment #196010 by DamnDirtyApe on June 19, 2008 at 7:43 am
*I say 'has' aspergers, I need to correct that. I don't mean to imply its some kind of illness.
There's plenty of people who are of that 'position' in the mental spectrum who are mighty fine intelligent folk.
(Then there's my friend who likes the band 'Yes'. oh dear.)
Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
20. Comment #196012 by Border Collie on June 19, 2008 at 7:55 am
After reading this story here and on the newspaper site a couple of times, I'll be surprised if there really is a "psychic" involved. I saw outrageous stuff like this happen many times when I was teaching handicapped children. Here's sort of how it works ... 1) Call the parent(s) with an "emergency", but don't state what it is.2. Claim some outrageous incident which strikes directly at the heart of a parent's worst fears.
3. Attribute the claim to a lower level employee of the institution and further remove responsibility for the claim to someone outside the system like a "psychic". They can't attribute the claim to a psychologist or psychiatrist; there would be records.
4. Make an "official" report to further remove responsibility to an outisde agency which they know must respond.
From this point, they hope that responsibility for the child will just go away or be transferred to some othe state agency.
Seems to me that they just wanted to get rid of the child and or that the school fools have some real psychiatric issues with their own sexuality.
Typically, the "sexual" behavior(s) that autistic children exhibit are nothing more than another obsessive/compulsive behavior from a large variety of o/c behaviors that they typically exhibit.
"led them to suspect a bladder infection" WTF?! These people need therapy ... bad.
Other Comments by Border Collie
21. Comment #196014 by black wolf on June 19, 2008 at 7:58 am
I'd like to see every member of that board and the psychic each convicted to pay the woman $2,000 per month for the next three years. Sounds fair to me, and the psychic will at least put some of the money she wangles to good use. Year after year, I keep up the hope that decisive legislation will be passed to have psychics provide scientifically sound evidence of their asserted abilities before being allowed to practice. Other Comments by black wolf
22. Comment #196016 by Steve Zara on June 19, 2008 at 7:58 am
(Then there's my friend who likes the band 'Yes'. oh dear.)
Excuse me! Is there something wrong with that?
Other Comments by Steve Zara
23. Comment #196022 by Dhamma on June 19, 2008 at 8:05 am
"The land of Dawkins - No unintelligence allowed"Sounds like a lovely country, right? Maybe we can start one of those super-effective internet petitions!
Other Comments by Dhamma
24. Comment #196038 by mordacious1 on June 19, 2008 at 8:32 am
Reminds me of the cartoon where the guy pulls a gun on the psychic to rob her and says, "Bet you didn't see this coming".Being the parent of an Asperger's child with 12 other overlapping diagnoses, I can feel this woman's pain (Clinton voice). Once my son started school, the problems started. He's not the most co-ordinated human being, and crashes and burns alot. In 1st grade for ex., he was running and crashed into a wall, I ran up, iced his nose, cleaned him up, bandaid. Next day the teacher asks him what happened, "Daddy, wall". I get this call from CPS saying that I threw him into a wall.
OK, no prob, they're just doing their job. Unfortunately, being very smart, he eventually learns that he can get a lot of attention and get out of class by making stuff up. It just adds to the enormous stress one has with these kids to begin with. It's always pleasant, when you're having dinner, and the Sheriff knocks on your door because you're son has a mark the size of a pencil eraser on his ear (picked a mosquito bite).
I never got upset though, they're doing what the law requires, better too much than too little. I think I would have blown a gasket, had they based anything on a psychic though.
Oh, and for the record, I've never even spanked this kid in 16 years and that, I honestly must say has taken the patience of a mythical biblical charactor.
Thanks for letting me vent.
Other Comments by mordacious1
25. Comment #196042 by Pattern Seeker on June 19, 2008 at 8:40 am
Yet one more reason why my 3 year old son will be homeschooled until he goes off to college or whatever. I won't let some sick fuck even have the opportunity to indoctrinate or manipulate my child over some religious or superstitious bullshit. Other Comments by Pattern Seeker
26. Comment #196047 by Greyman on June 19, 2008 at 8:44 am
I was going to say this was sickening and made no sense at all. Then I read Border Collie's post and it made all too much sense... and is still sickening.
Remind me again, what century are we living in?
Other Comments by Greyman
27. Comment #196052 by EvidenceOnly on June 19, 2008 at 8:51 am
After reading this, can anyone who claims to be a human in the 21st century still make the case that faith is a virtue?Other Comments by EvidenceOnly
28. Comment #196055 by mordacious1 on June 19, 2008 at 8:53 am
The band "Yes".Their older stuff is great. Last year I saw Jon Anderson do "Roundabout" with the Trans Siberian Orchestra...have to say it was excellent. This song alone had an impact on rock. Once they started doing the disco-esque crap, Jon got mad and quit. Rick Wakeman was already gone, so....
Steve and I are showing our age...
Other Comments by mordacious1
29. Comment #196056 by squinky on June 19, 2008 at 8:56 am
SUE THE SCHOOL BOARD!
Don't blame the psychic, the school board is guilty of defamation or discrimination or SOMETHING that you can trump up charges on for listening to a goddamn psychic!
False accusations can be devastating to someone's reputation and this is about as false as it gets. Start some rumors. Say the educational assistant has child porn on her computer. Say that she is a member of a secret vampire cult that practices sado-masachism (see the scratches on her arms?). Say she rough-handled one of the children. Oh and put some shit in the psychic's mailbox just for good measure.
An eye for an eye, not turn the other cheek, I say.
Other Comments by squinky
30. Comment #196061 by Sh!fty on June 19, 2008 at 9:04 am
but... Where is the harm? Other Comments by Sh!fty
31. Comment #196065 by mordacious1 on June 19, 2008 at 9:07 am
BorderDon't even get me on the topic of ways a school can avoid giving services to a child of special needs...
This being said, after "school shopping" for awhile, I found a public school that has done wonders for my child. I just wish I found them earlier. His home district is known for getting rid of special needs kids, the one he's in now goes out of their way to serve them...
If I had to do it all over again, I would show up the first day of school with a lawyer in tow. I'm not joking.
Other Comments by mordacious1
32. Comment #196073 by DamnDirtyApe on June 19, 2008 at 9:15 am
22. Comment #196016 by Steve Zara on June 19, 2008 at 7:58 am
Nooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo..... anything but Yes....
Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
33. Comment #196080 by eh-theist on June 19, 2008 at 9:21 am
CAS is like CPS - it is called Children's Aid Society here. They're known for over-reacting but I have to admit, in this instance, they did the right thing.
I am really bothered by everyone not believing in psychics - I have PROOF they work.
When I was in kindergarten, my teacher went to a psychic and was told that I (I think the psychic, as usual, gave my full name and date of birth - there was no chance that it was vague!) was possessed by the devil.
They called in my parents and even used a picture I had coloured (with black pencil crayon only) as proof.
SEE! Psychics do work (for money)!
The devil in me happened to be colour blind.
Needless to say, the psychic didn't predict that my parents would receive advice from our family doctor that I was likely colour blind. Nor did the psychic predict that my parents would move me to another school. (Psychics can't be right on everything - that's proof that they are human!)
Other Comments by eh-theist
34. Comment #196081 by clatz on June 19, 2008 at 9:22 am
Thankfully, the mother is on stress leave.
I don't think the article makes that clear, and I had inferred from the following sentence that she was forced to quit her job:
As a result of her stress and the need to stay home with her daughter, Leduc is now unable to work, has no place to send her child for the rest of the year, isn't sure where she'll go when school begins in September and is seeking legal advice.
Hopefully she can find the care her daughter deserves, and at the very least a decent apology from the school board, from what I have read they haven't paid her that courtesy yet.
Other Comments by clatz
35. Comment #196087 by Border Collie on June 19, 2008 at 9:30 am
Greyman ... thanks for your nice response. For any of you with "handicapped" children, I have enormous respect for you. In all fairness to the school itself ... not the roaches who dreamed this bulls&%t up ... I know that many/most times the schools simply don't have the resources (money, time, expertise, training, intelligence, desire, whatever) to deal with children with problems like autism. Many times, by law, the schools are put in the position of being forced to provide services which they simply can't provide. Lawmakers are typically very duplicitous on things like this ... forcing schools to provide while not providing funding to the schools to provide the required services.Disregarding the issues of the school people involved in this, I would challenge any reader of this post, including myself, to be in a room with a child with problems, say, for instance, a child "with" autism, while that child is exhibiting bizzare repetitive behaviors, screaming, self-mutilating, masturbating, physically/sexually attacking you, whatever, and remain calm, composed, rational, etc. It is like no other challenge you've faced. You believe that you're a rational person until you're thrust into such a situation. Every archaic, primitive belief, superstition, whatever, you've ever heard of surfaces. This becomes especially difficult for caretakers/teachers/parents when the children reach puberty and start exhibiting the odd "sexual" behaviors. I guess to make a long story short, having a "handicapped" child of any sort is very difficult on all concerned. I just wish that these school people (and I'm conjecturing here) could have found a more adult way of informing the mother that they simply couldn't deal with or didn't want to have the daughter in their school any longer. From what little I saw on the video, the daughter didn't seem all that problematic. I've seen much, much worse. Apologies for the long rant.
Other Comments by Border Collie
36. Comment #196090 by decius on June 19, 2008 at 9:33 am
@SteveZaraExcuse me! Is there something wrong with that?
I think you have to recognize that pop is to music what romance novel is to literature. Nothing wrong if you go for either of them, but don't expect your taste to be publicly praised.
Cheers
Other Comments by decius
37. Comment #196091 by Szkeptik on June 19, 2008 at 9:34 am
All people who were connected to this case and have taken the word of this psychic as evidence must be sterilised immediately. They cannot be allowed to procreate.Other Comments by Szkeptik
38. Comment #196098 by Steve Zara on June 19, 2008 at 9:48 am
Comment #196090 by decius"Yes" are not a pop band. They are accomplished musicians. Steve Howe is recognised as one of the greatest rock guitarists ever.
Honestly, you young people and your punk and hop hip. You just don't know what real music is.
(I'm nearly 50 you know)
Other Comments by Steve Zara
39. Comment #196099 by The Schuermannator on June 19, 2008 at 9:49 am
leodavinci -
You're right. It would make a good court case. The defense would argue that the psychic should have already known he/she was in danger of being assaulted by an unknown individual who had it out for boolsheet.
Other Comments by The Schuermannator
40. Comment #196103 by mordacious1 on June 19, 2008 at 9:52 am
Skip (and other Canadians)What's with all the human feet washing up on shore in the Georgian Straits near Vancouver? Five R feet and one L in the last six months. All with socks and tennis shoes. Are there a lot of people hopping around on one leg up there? Bizarre.
Other Comments by mordacious1
41. Comment #196104 by al-rawandi on June 19, 2008 at 9:56 am
mordacious1,
I just read that severed foot story today.
Maybe they can get a psychic to track down the killer. And wasn't there some killer out in the country feeding his victims to pigs???
Other Comments by al-rawandi
42. Comment #196105 by DamnDirtyApe on June 19, 2008 at 9:57 am
ha ha... I'm not going to dispute Yes are musically gifted, but just like The Mars Volta's Album 'amputechture' - it just doesn't work for me.
I may be a lousy no good punk who keeps getting on the lawn, but I likes my music. crass, led zep, bits of pink floyd, anti-nowhere league, as my oldies... more recent stuff would be Tool, Anti-flag...
We could be here all day, Say no to yes, etc. :D
Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe
43. Comment #196109 by MPhil on June 19, 2008 at 10:00 am
Hey, I'm 24 and I agree with Steve that the musicians of Yes are highly accomplished musicians, and that their music is far more complex and "sophisticated"(if you will) than pop music or hip hop or whatever. That is not to say that the latter have no artistic value.I'm a fan of progressive rock. King Crimson for example - some of the most sophisticated music I have ever heard (and I am also a fan of classical music and Jazz), and extremely accomplished musicians. Same goes for Bands from Progressive Metal or even Progressive Death metal, which most people think is only disgusting noise.
Think of it: A time-signature change every few measures (and not just 4/4 - 3/4... rather something like 9/8 - 17/16 - 5/4 - 21/32) - polymeter (various time-signatures played on top of one another), complex interactions of melodies with complex rhythms providing ever-changing harmonic structures - the use of atonal melodies and disharmonic structures - and the complex interactions of dissonant and con-sonant elements.
It's just fascinatingly complex - and requires extremely talented musicians to write and perform. Okay, the music of Yes often isn't nearly as complex as King Crimson or even Dream Theater/Pain of Salvation/Necrophagist - but it still is vastly more sophisticated than anything you are likely to hear on the radio (except for classical music and jazz) or anything from genres such as pop, hip hop, techno or some such.
Again, that is not to say that there are not great songs in those genres. I do enjoy a lot of pop music, and find some extremely simple songs to be incredibly artistic in that they convey powerful emotions for example, in that the phrasing and voicing of notes/chords is perfectly suited to what the song wants to convey etc.
But I do love and am fascinated by complex, sophisticated music requiring skillful instrumentalists to perform.
Oh, and yes - I am aware that the next-to-last statement about "you young people" was meant in a humorous way... still, I think the points about "punk and hip hop" are at least somewhat true, concerning "sophistication" of music at least.
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44. Comment #196112 by History_Junky on June 19, 2008 at 10:03 am
omg...thats my town! Other Comments by History_Junky
45. Comment #196113 by MBC Morgan on June 19, 2008 at 10:08 am
mordacious1What's with all the human feet washing up on shore in the Georgian Straits near Vancouver? Five R feet and one L in the last six months. All with socks and tennis shoes. Are there a lot of people hopping around on one leg up there? Bizarre.Six in six months? This one is the second this week! It's probably just plane crash victims/boating accidents/illegal immigrants washed overboard. You know, the usual.
Al -
And wasn't there some killer out in the country feeding his victims to pigsYep. Seems he killed a bunch of prostitutes. Of course, it seems more likely that he had a little help in it, but the number is somewhere around 40. Robert Pickton is his name.
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46. Comment #196115 by decius on June 19, 2008 at 10:11 am
Steve,thanks for including me among the young, but I am about to hit 45.
I remember some early tracks by the Yes. Regardless of the skills of the individual players, which I honestly never investigated, I always found their music very weak and predictable. I particularly disliked the sound of their omnipresent keyboards, which had an unmistakable pop flavour and that's why I called it thus.
The label "progressive rock" -which they seem to prefer- has become over the years a container-name for all sort of styles and I find it rather meaningless.
Furthermore, it is a fact that the Yes are favoured by pop audiences more than by anyone else.
I completely agree with your assessment of hip-hop, it's absolutely not my taste either.
If you want to know, nowadays I only listen to Baroque and early Classical, but in my youth I used to have a very wide scope of interests, probably with the only exclusion of folk, pop and hip hop, and I still love to talk about music.
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47. Comment #196116 by al-rawandi on June 19, 2008 at 10:15 am
MPhil,
Kenny G. is pretty talented as well.... but he is the reason I hate elevators.
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48. Comment #196117 by SharonMcT on June 19, 2008 at 10:17 am
Al:
Arrggghhh...thank you so much for the nasty earworm! ;P
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49. Comment #196122 by mordacious1 on June 19, 2008 at 10:22 am
MBCWhat! The sharks, if they can stand the cold water, don't like feet? Why not hands or something else? Have to get Jon_the_Atheist to do probabilities on 5 out of 6 feet being right ones.
edit: and they're all male feet, this is starting to sound like Dr. Seuess' "Feet, Feet, Feet".
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50. Comment #196125 by Podaar on June 19, 2008 at 10:27 am
43. Comment #196109 by MPhil
What Mike said!
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Over 1.5 million copies sold
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1. Comment #195965 by Eventhorizon on June 19, 2008 at 6:11 am
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