We need to stop being such cowards about Islam2. Comment #229700 by Dadeolus on August 14, 2008 at 12:31 am
I am standing up and applauding loudly. Couldn't agree more. The only way we'll deal with the ridiculousness of all religion is by the slow attrition we have used against christianity. If we are not even allowed to look at islam sideways, we'll never get rid of it!3. Comment #229701 by TomGoodfellow on August 14, 2008 at 12:32 am
Hear hear! I've a feeling this article will be quite popular here.4. Comment #229702 by elfinabout on August 14, 2008 at 12:32 am
5. Comment #229703 by Logicel on August 14, 2008 at 12:44 am
6. Comment #229705 by SteveN on August 14, 2008 at 12:47 am
7. Comment #229706 by Apemanblues on August 14, 2008 at 12:54 am
8. Comment #229707 by clatz on August 14, 2008 at 12:56 am
9. Comment #229708 by cyberguy on August 14, 2008 at 12:57 am
10. Comment #229710 by Enlightenme.. on August 14, 2008 at 12:59 am
11. Comment #229712 by Brian English on August 14, 2008 at 1:01 am
12. Comment #229713 by utelme on August 14, 2008 at 1:01 am
Good luck England, I wish you all the best but I think it's too late for you. You've been debating this issue for how long? It's obvious you still don't know what to do. You're like the victim that's getting bashed, trying to talk the bully out of it, crying for mummy and not lifting a finger to help yourself. Take on your attackers one at a time, trying to take on Islam and at the same time his buddies Christianity and the other sycophants is a hopeless cause.13. Comment #229714 by Raiko on August 14, 2008 at 1:03 am
How did Christianity lose its ability to terrorise people with phantasms of sin and Hell? How did it stop spreading shame about natural urges - pre-marital sex, masturbation or homosexuality?
14. Comment #229716 by Codec on August 14, 2008 at 1:12 am
What a great article, more power to you.15. Comment #229717 by Tumara Baap on August 14, 2008 at 1:20 am
The Koran and hadith ought to be critiqued to bits. However, it's a stretch to point out these absurdities in the koran and then link them to deviant social behaviour. Such a link would be tenuous. Muslims, as people of most other religions, have rarely ever critically read and imbibed the contents of their holy book. Sure, they mindlessly blabber its verses. But their perspective is colored by other historical muslim figures, contemporary culture, sufi "saints", local traditions and folklore. I think it was Taner Edis, the Turkish-American physicist who pointed out that the sort of narrow Wahabi interpretation of Islam as portrayed in End of Faith (even though accurate) is just not how the vast majority of Muslims view their own faith. Caution therefore ought to be exercised before condemning all Muslims as being nourished by something sick. Reality is a little more complex. That said, there ought to be no hesitation in frankly stating historical facts. Mohammed was a ruthless, bloodthirsty, power hungry, plagiarizing, caravan raiding, sex obsessed murderer. Ibn Warraq gives one of the most sober and academically responsible accounts of this horrible human being.16. Comment #229718 by Peter_on_Sax on August 14, 2008 at 1:27 am
I see that the book "The Jewel of Medina" is listed on Amazon. See:17. Comment #229721 by Christopher Davis on August 14, 2008 at 1:33 am
18. Comment #229723 by Buddha on August 14, 2008 at 1:39 am
19. Comment #229726 by PJG on August 14, 2008 at 1:49 am
20. Comment #229728 by AllanW on August 14, 2008 at 1:57 am
21. Comment #229731 by PJG on August 14, 2008 at 2:02 am
22. Comment #229734 by Fanusi Khiyal on August 14, 2008 at 2:05 am
Excellent article, it needs to be said more and more.23. Comment #229736 by suffolkthinker on August 14, 2008 at 2:07 am
24. Comment #229737 by PJG on August 14, 2008 at 2:08 am
An ad hominem argument, also known as argumentum ad hominem (Latin: "argument to the man", "argument against the man") consists of replying to an argument or factual claim by attacking or appealing to a characteristic or belief of the person making the argument or claim, rather than by addressing the substance of the argument or producing evidence against the claim.
25. Comment #229739 by beeline on August 14, 2008 at 2:14 am
26. Comment #229741 by Fanusi Khiyal on August 14, 2008 at 2:17 am
Okay, BFKate thanks for the evidence. Still, not all of those quotes are wrong - George Gallow is a pimp and prostitute for fascism and Islam and totalitarianism.27. Comment #229742 by PJG on August 14, 2008 at 2:17 am
Attack the issues, not the people.
28. Comment #229744 by Szymanowski on August 14, 2008 at 2:19 am
29. Comment #229746 by Goldy on August 14, 2008 at 2:22 am
30. Comment #229747 by PJG on August 14, 2008 at 2:24 am
Fanusi
You called me BJKate. You little prick is that a piece of clever sexual innuendo? BlowJobKate?
About what I'd expect from someone who needs Johann Hari to tell them what to think.
31. Comment #229750 by Stewart on August 14, 2008 at 2:27 am
Well, I read through it, found it uniformly excellent, with no obvious weaknesses and moved on to the comments to see most agreed that it was outstanding. It was dismaying to see voices against and still more to see that it was Hari's character they were arguing against, and what's more, using second-hand ad hominems to do it with. You're never going to find someone perfect who articulates your views; no one is flawless. I enjoy, to differing degrees, both Hari and Steyn, for example, and don't enjoy the fact that there seems to be such animosity between them. If someone you despise for reasons you think are good happens to write something you can't fault, that is precisely not the time to bring in the prejudices you have against him as an argument against what he wrote. It is the perfect time to reevaluate and look very critically at why you had difficulty swallowing a good argument merely because of who it came from.32. Comment #229754 by Peacebeuponme on August 14, 2008 at 2:33 am
You cannot say that Mohamed's decision to marry a young girl has to be judged by the standards of his time, and then demand that we follow his moral standards to the letter.What an excellent point.
33. Comment #229755 by Eventhorizon on August 14, 2008 at 2:33 am
34. Comment #229756 by Goldy on August 14, 2008 at 2:35 am
But the question arises: why have we become such cowards?We haven't. Not really. Tolerant, yes. Maybe condescendingly tolerant, but never cowards.
35. Comment #229758 by beeline on August 14, 2008 at 2:38 am
36. Comment #229759 by Peacebeuponme on August 14, 2008 at 2:38 am
BF Kate #229735From his wikipedia page.Great quotes you have there Johan has stood up and called all of those on yor list for some pretty nasty, or at least controversial (and therefore worthy of strenuous rebuttal) comments. I don't see the problem.
37. Comment #229761 by Goldy on August 14, 2008 at 2:43 am
38. Comment #229762 by Darwin's badger on August 14, 2008 at 2:44 am
39. Comment #229763 by Laurie Fraser on August 14, 2008 at 2:44 am
40. Comment #229764 by Peacebeuponme on August 14, 2008 at 2:46 am
BFKateThanks for telling me not to have an opinion. Silly bastard.I don't recall saying that. More an appeal for you to back up your position instead of just laying down unsubstantiated insults. I didn't ask you to stop posting.
41. Comment #229765 by lol mahmood on August 14, 2008 at 2:50 am
It's not ad hominem. Ad hominem would be me calling him names for no reason. My arguement is that his position as an egoist makes his opinion untrustworthy.
From his wikipedia page....
42. Comment #229766 by beeline on August 14, 2008 at 2:50 am
43. Comment #229767 by Peacebeuponme on August 14, 2008 at 2:50 am
BFkateNo. I just dared express a view about Hari that isn't in line with his neo con groupies.Internet discussion rule #238: Whenever your view on a public individual is opposed by 3 or more people, group them together as 'followers' or 'groupies' of said person. This attacks their objectivty and avoids actually dealing with the issues they bring up.
44. Comment #229769 by Goldy on August 14, 2008 at 2:53 am
Don't go trying to tell me what to fucking say.
45. Comment #229770 by Laurie Fraser on August 14, 2008 at 2:53 am
46. Comment #229771 by Szymanowski on August 14, 2008 at 2:54 am
Hari is untrustworthy because he picks fights because of it.Examples?
Being a self publicist makes you untrustworthy and ALWAYS HAS.You haven't substantiated that (sorry, using Caps Lock doesn't make things more true).
So this time his view aligns with mine SO WHAT? I have to give the guy my support? Fuck that. I like (strike that) I HAVE to trust that the people I support are worth supporting. Mouthing a couple of views that line up with mine doesn't make me fall in love with nasty little twats like Hari.Who's asking you to "fall in love" with Hari? Isn't this discussion about whether to agree and support what this article says?
48. Comment #229773 by Stewart on August 14, 2008 at 2:54 am
BFKate49. Comment #229774 by Laurie Fraser on August 14, 2008 at 2:58 am
50. Comment #229776 by Stewart on August 14, 2008 at 3:00 am
Sorry, I was beaten to my thought experiment suggestion.This article is reposted from a website that accepts comments.
Why not share your comment on the article there as well? CLICK HERE
1. Comment #229698 by Sargeist on August 14, 2008 at 12:28 am
Thank you, Independent, perhaps you have just about stolen my allegiance from the Guardian.
EDIT:
This is true. But a fair number do behave that way. And children with guns and nuclear weapons are a little more scary than adults with them.
Other Comments by Sargeist