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Thursday, August 14, 2008 | Reason : Commentary | print version Print | Comments

Document We need to stop being such cowards about Islam

by Johann Hari, The Independent

Reposted from:
http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/commentators/johann-hari/johann-hari-we-need-to-stop-being-such-cowards-about-islam-894361.html

This is a column condemning cowardice — including my own. It begins with the story of a novel you cannot read. The Jewel of Medina was written by a journalist called Sherry Jones. It recounts the life of Aisha, a girl who was married off at the age of six to a 50-year-old man called Mohamed ibn Abdallah. On her wedding day, Aisha was playing on a see-saw outside her home. Inside, she was being betrothed. The first she knew of it was when she was banned from playing out in the street with the other children. When she was nine, she was taken to live with her husband, now 53. He had sex with her. When she was 14, she was accused of adultery with a man closer to her own age. Not long after, Mohamed decreed that his wives must cover their faces and bodies, even though no other women in Arabia did.

You cannot read this story today — except in the Koran and the Hadith. The man Mohamed ibn Abdallah became known to Muslims as "the Prophet Mohamed", so our ability to explore this story is stunted. The Jewel of Medina was bought by Random House and primed to be a best-seller — before a University of Texas teacher saw proofs and declared it "a national security issue". Random House had visions of a re-run of the Rushdie or the Danish cartoons affairs. Sherry Jones's publisher has pulped the book. It's gone.

In Europe, we are finally abolishing the lingering blasphemy laws that hinder criticism of Christianity. But they are being succeeded by a new blasphemy law preventing criticism of Islam — enforced not by the state, but by jihadis. I seriously considered not writing this column, but the right to criticise religion is as precious — and hard-won — as the right to criticise government. We have to use it or lose it.

Some people will instantly ask: why bother criticising religion if it causes so much hassle? The answer is: look back at our history. How did Christianity lose its ability to terrorise people with phantasms of sin and Hell? How did it stop spreading shame about natural urges — pre-marital sex, masturbation or homosexuality? Because critics pored over the religion's stories and found gaping holes of logic or morality in them. They asked questions. How could an angel inseminate a virgin? Why does the Old Testament God command his followers to commit genocide? How can a man survive inside a whale?

Reinterpretation and ridicule crow-barred Christianity open. Ask enough tough questions and faith is inevitably pushed farther and farther back into the misty realm of metaphor — where it is less likely to inspire people to kill and die for it. But doubtful Muslims, and the atheists who support them, are being prevented from following this path. They cannot ask: what does it reveal about Mohamed that he married a young girl, or that he massacred a village of Jews who refused to follow him? You don't have to murder many Theo Van Goghs or pulp many Sherry Joneses to intimidate the rest. The greatest censorship is internal: it is in all the books that will never be written and all the films that will never be shot, because we are afraid.

We need to acknowledge the double-standard — and that it will cost Muslims in the end. Insulating a religion from criticism — surrounding it with an electric fence called "respect" — keeps it stunted at its most infantile and fundamentalist stage. The smart, questioning and instinctively moral Muslims — the majority — learn to be silent, or are shunned (at best). What would Christianity be like today if George Eliot, Mark Twain and Bertrand Russell had all been pulped? Take the most revolting rural Alabama church, and metastasise it.

Since Jones has brought it up, let us look at Mohamed's marriage to Aisha as a model for how we can conduct this conversation. It is true those were different times, and it may have been normal for grown men to have sex with prepubescent girls. The sources are not clear on this point. But whatever culture you live in, having sex when your body is not physically developed can be an excruciatingly painful experience. Among Vikings, it was more normal than today to have your arm chopped off, but that didn't mean it wasn't agony. If anything, Jones's book whitewashes this, suggesting that Mohamed's "gentleness" meant Aisha enjoyed it.

The story of Aisha also prompts another fundamentalist-busting discussion. You cannot say that Mohamed's decision to marry a young girl has to be judged by the standards of his time, and then demand that we follow his moral standards to the letter. Either we should follow his example literally, or we should critically evaluate it and choose for ourselves. Discussing this contradiction inevitably injects doubt — the mortal enemy of fanaticism (on The Independent's Open House blog later today, I'll be discussing how Aisha has become the central issue in a debate in Yemen about children and forced marriage).

So why do many people who cheer The Life Of Brian and Jerry Springer: The Opera turn into clucking Mary Whitehouses when it comes to Islam? If a book about Christ was being dumped because fanatics in Mississippi might object, we would be enraged. I feel this too. I am ashamed to say I would be more scathing if I was discussing Christianity. One reason is fear: the image of Theo Van Gogh lying on a pavement crying "Can't we just talk about this?" Of course we rationalise it, by asking: does one joke, one column, one novel make much difference? No. But cumulatively? Absolutely.

The other reason is more honourable, if flawed. There is very real and rising prejudice against Muslims across the West. The BBC recently sent out identically-qualified CVs to hundreds of employers. Those with Muslim names were 50 per cent less likely to get interviews. Criticisms of Islamic texts are sometimes used to justify US or Israeli military atrocities. Some critics of Muslims — Geert Wilders or Martin Amis — moot mass human rights abuses here in Europe. So some secularists reason: I have plenty of criticisms of Judaism, but I wouldn't choose to articulate them in Germany in 1933. Why try to question Islam now, when Muslims are being attacked by bigots?

But I live in the Muslim majority East End of London, and this isn't Weimar Germany. Muslims are secure enough to deal with some tough questions. It is condescending to treat Muslims like excitable children who cannot cope with the probing, mocking treatment we hand out to Christianity, Judaism and Buddhism. It is perfectly consistent to protect Muslims from bigotry while challenging the bigotries and absurdities within their holy texts.

There is now a pincer movement trying to silence critical discussion of Islam. To one side, fanatics threaten to kill you; to the other, critics call you "Islamophobic". But consistent atheism is not racism. On the contrary: it treats all people as mature adults who can cope with rational questions. When we pulp books out of fear of fundamentalism, we are decapitating the most precious freedom we have.

Comments 201 - 250 of 336 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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201. Comment #230017 by nickthelight on August 14, 2008 at 6:54 am

 avatarThat's more like it Johann. A bit more like that and I'll stop thinking of you as a wooly headed liberal wimp.

Other Comments by nickthelight

202. Comment #230018 by Fanusi Khiyal on August 14, 2008 at 6:55 am

Jesus Christ, is this nonsense _still_ going on?

Give me a break. NEB, good idea.

Phillip, there are alot of Islamic denominations, but none of them differ in any significant way in its approach toward infidels.

Those Islamic reforms that have given rise to something nonviolent - Ahmadiyya, Ba'hai - are out and out heretics.

Other Comments by Fanusi Khiyal

203. Comment #230019 by thewhitepearl on August 14, 2008 at 6:58 am

 avatarQuetz,

Oh you mean the article on your blog? Yes I thought of that as well when I was reading this. They can get away with doing whateverthey want by justifying it with what mohammed did or what's written in their code of laws.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

204. Comment #230020 by Quetzalcoatl on August 14, 2008 at 7:04 am

 avatarthewhitepearl-

No, not on my blog- I meant a different article entirely.

EDIT- it may have been Pakistan.

Regardless, the point is the same.

Moderate Muslims need to be pressed on this as well. They claim Mohammed was perfect, yet justify Aisha as a symbol of the times- a clear contradiction.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

205. Comment #230021 by thewhitepearl on August 14, 2008 at 7:07 am

 avatarOy,

It still reminded me of the article on your blog. Oh but that guy was 80 something huh? Geez.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

206. Comment #230022 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2008 at 7:08 am

 avatarFanusi

Sure thing, the infidel thing is pretty much a constant isn't it!:)

But I have been thinking, if you came back in time to lets say medieval times even in England, you could be burnt at the stake or some other gruesome death for commenting on how nice the halibut was and that it was good enough for Jehovah! Christianity was pretty much as rabid as Islam is now - I am attempting to understand just what it was that changed things and how we could possibly incorporate it into getting the more fundamental followers of Islam to calm the hell down.

Take 12th, 13th and 14th Century Europe just as examples and look at how dangerous it was - you didn't insult God or it was a fate worse than a fate worse than death, the Christian religion was fanatical.

Now look at Christianity, yes there are some horrible groups out there but it is now more acceptable to wave two fingers at Jesus and not suffer too much except watch the Catholic League turn a funny shade of puce. Sure the death threats still exist but it is in my opinion a lot more tame.

Oh I dont know what to do...should we simply be offering a nice cup of Tea? :)

Other Comments by Philip1978

207. Comment #230024 by Federico_Lopez on August 14, 2008 at 7:12 am

 avatarAnybody knows about a copy of the book "The Jewel of Medina"?

Any copy in the UNDERGROUND market?

Other Comments by Federico_Lopez

208. Comment #230025 by Tyler Durden on August 14, 2008 at 7:14 am

 avatarComment #230022 by Philip1978
you could be burnt at the stake or some other gruesome death for commenting on how nice the halibut was and that it was good enough for Jehovah!
Blasphemer!!! I'll get the stones...

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

209. Comment #230026 by utelme on August 14, 2008 at 7:16 am

Comment 229722 BFKate
And Fuck you utelme. Calling people you don't know victims is a sign of a half wit

No, you can't fuck me even if you do like my arse. Although at least you sound as if you have some balls. Maybe there is some hope for you. As far as having been bashed, sorry it only happened once and there were too many to take on at once. I also haven't been called a bitch but I have been called a cunt many times. As for the rest of it, I have spent a few interesting nights in the can, so yes, I have met my friends the police on non-social occasions. But enough of kissing my own arse. It's obvious that you have a serious problem with Islam over there. How else can you interpret it when you see the Islamonuts with their posters in the streets screaming for all the infidels deaths and the police doing nothing. Not only that but you poor saps can get arrested if you even complain about their religion. I'm also sick of all this political correctness when it comes to Islam. You obviously have a serious problem over there and need to do more than just take on the cops and "tossers". Your politicians are pathetic (the same as most of the bastards are)and all they seem to do is continually appease this religion. I have little patience with any other religions but, on the evidence, Islam is substantially worse than the others, at least until they (the others)wake up to the fact that Islams bullying works. I think that there is already some evidence that they are starting to realise this. Anyway,just to stir you up further, you poms are piss poor at cricket and football, although I'll give you this, you are good at crocheting.

Other Comments by utelme

210. Comment #230027 by thewhitepearl on August 14, 2008 at 7:16 am

 avatarI'm warning you, if you say "Jehovah" once more...

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

211. Comment #230028 by Nathanial_BB on August 14, 2008 at 7:16 am

 avatarHi All -

266. Comment #230015 by Dhamma
Here is a link to the article you missed ;)

http://www.richarddawkins.net/article,2964,Novel-on-prophets-wife-pulled-for-fear-of-backlash,Suzanne-Goldenberg---Guardian

Other Comments by Nathanial_BB

212. Comment #230031 by Peacebeuponme on August 14, 2008 at 7:19 am

I'm just waiting until David Roberson appears and we can all have a reasonable discussion with him
Irate you arsehole. I had to go to a meeting (these employers of mine really are bastards) and was going to post that when I got back.

I really thought David was going to pop in and say something like "pardon me for interrupting the highbrow debate here...". He is that much of an arse.

My original post on this thread was about Johan's comment:
You cannot say that Mohamed's decision to marry a young girl has to be judged by the standards of his time, and then demand that we follow his moral standards to the letter.
I think that's a devastating argument for muslim theologians and muslims in general to deal with.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

213. Comment #230033 by Peacebeuponme on August 14, 2008 at 7:21 am

Tyler
Blasphemer!!! I'll get the stones...
Make sure you don't get ones that are too big. Death by stoning must be done with stones not large enough to kill instantly.

Other Comments by Peacebeuponme

214. Comment #230034 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2008 at 7:23 am

 avatarJehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah! Jehovah!

Forget not people, I have the Cup of Tea of Quetz in my hand and I aint afraid to drink it! Bring on your stones!

Peacebeuponme

That's excellent!

Other Comments by Philip1978

215. Comment #230035 by Tyler Durden on August 14, 2008 at 7:24 am

 avatarAll we're missing now is Joe Morealle and his $0.02 on this...

Hey Joe,

Come join the discussion... what's your opinion on covering (Muslim) women from head-to-toe in cloth, or marrying six-year old girls?

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

216. Comment #230037 by HourglassMemory on August 14, 2008 at 7:26 am

What a good article.
I wonder if anyone else in other newspapers are going to join in...

Other Comments by HourglassMemory

217. Comment #230038 by thewhitepearl on August 14, 2008 at 7:26 am

 avatarStop! Stop!! will you?! Stop that! Now, look.. No one is to stone anyone until I blow this whistle!!!!

Cup of Tea of Quetz huh? baaah. It'll make you believe youre mightier than you really are.

[edit]
Come join the discussion... what's your opinion on covering (Muslim) women from head-to-toe in cloth, or marrying six-year old girls?



Ooooooh look at you, you're just begging for trouble today. Don't call him over here I will be banished to the kitchen.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

218. Comment #230040 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2008 at 7:29 am

 avatarForgive them Quetz, for they know not what they do!

Other Comments by Philip1978

219. Comment #230041 by Broicher on August 14, 2008 at 7:29 am

If one reads the hadith then it seems very obvious to me that he even had sex with her when she was nine! And that is even agreed on by islam researcher who interpret the term "consumate" in exactly that way. That is why I always call Mohammed a pedophiliac illiterate. Muslims feel insulted by that and I really ask myself why, didn't they read the funtamentals of their own religion? They always claim that she had her period, so she is adult and then it's ok to sleep with a child. Come on!!!!

Other Comments by Broicher

220. Comment #230042 by Quetzalcoatl on August 14, 2008 at 7:29 am

 avatarthewhitepearl-

Cup of Tea of Quetz huh? baaah. It'll make you believe youre mightier than you really are.


Oh yeah? Let's see how tough you are without that cricket bat.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

221. Comment #230043 by mikesherwod53 on August 14, 2008 at 7:30 am

Yes most Muslims are sane decent people but they believe in a lunitic creed (festooned as the Bible is with good bits among the crazy crap).
It is for us too tell them how to deal with this (we aint their daddy) but tolerance stops when you put a fist in my face.

Other Comments by mikesherwod53

222. Comment #230044 by Tyler Durden on August 14, 2008 at 7:32 am

 avatartwp,

blow the whistle, blow the whistle...

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

223. Comment #230045 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2008 at 7:34 am

 avatarBroicher

Thing is they can then get on the high horse and say it was Mohammed's divine right to have sex with her - he being all special and all.

But then I suppose that idiot who came out recently bleating on about how acceptable it was in Islam to marry even a one year old off because Allah wills it.

[shudders]

Other Comments by Philip1978

224. Comment #230046 by irate_atheist on August 14, 2008 at 7:35 am

 avatar279. Comment #230031 by Peacebeuponme -

pwned

Other Comments by irate_atheist

225. Comment #230047 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2008 at 7:36 am

 avatarQuickly slurps at Tea!

Praises Quetz!

Says in the most polite English Accent he can muster:

BRING IT ON!

:)

Other Comments by Philip1978

226. Comment #230049 by irate_atheist on August 14, 2008 at 7:41 am

 avatar292. Comment #230047 by Philip1978 -

To which, may I add, Queensbury rules please ladies and gentlemen, Queensbury rules.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

227. Comment #230051 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2008 at 7:47 am

 avatarQueensbury rules? But they want to use stones!

Plus I am sure Tyler is going to break rule 11 and wear springs in his shoes!

Other Comments by Philip1978

228. Comment #230052 by maxamillion on August 14, 2008 at 7:48 am

 avatarIslamophobia:
A dishonest word, which seeks to portray legitimate comment as some kind of hate crime.
Pat Condell

Other Comments by maxamillion

229. Comment #230055 by irate_atheist on August 14, 2008 at 7:51 am

 avatar294. Comment #230051 by Philip1978 -

If that be so, run for the hills laddie, run for the hills!

Other Comments by irate_atheist

230. Comment #230056 by Tyler Durden on August 14, 2008 at 7:52 am

 avatar
How did Christianity lose its ability to terrorise people with phantasms of sin and Hell? How did it stop spreading shame about natural urges - pre-marital sex, masturbation or homosexuality? Because critics pored over the religion's stories and found gaping holes of logic or morality in them.
With science, don't forget the science!!

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

231. Comment #230058 by thewhitepearl on August 14, 2008 at 7:55 am

 avatar
Oh yeah? Let's see how tough you are without that cricket bat.



[teleports to some accounting firm far away and whacks-smacks-damn..ugh.. pummels Quetz]

Take that!

[teleports to happy land and knocks tea cup out of philips hand]

Now anyone else going to challenge me this morning?

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

232. Comment #230060 by utelme on August 14, 2008 at 7:57 am

What is it with Islam and stones? Is it because they have no stones of their own? Those 72..73? virgins are going to be so disappointed.

Other Comments by utelme

233. Comment #230061 by Donald on August 14, 2008 at 7:58 am

I thought Johann's article at the top of this thread was honest, clear, factual, and an inspiration to all of us who think god does not exist, and that some forms of religion are dangerous to humanity.

(But I can't say the same about this thread. RD leads well. He keeps his comments polite and to the point. It's a shame for this site that so many who post here aren't following his lead.)

Other Comments by Donald

234. Comment #230063 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2008 at 8:00 am

 avatarLooks at hand, Tea Cup still present, Tea unspilt, no pain...my god is great one!

I forgive you Whitepearl!

That was an impressive cover drive though, ever thought of starting a Lady's Cricket team in the US?

Other Comments by Philip1978

235. Comment #230064 by Quetzalcoatl on August 14, 2008 at 8:01 am

 avatarthewhitepearl-

[teleports to some accounting firm far away and whacks-smacks-damn..ugh.. pummels Quetz]


Quetz blocks the "pummelling" using his martial arts skills, hurls a fireball in response. Then smacks her once for good measure.

[teleports to happy land and knocks tea cup out of philips hand]


Quetz uses his divine powers to immediately provide Philip with another cup of tea.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

236. Comment #230067 by Scep on August 14, 2008 at 8:08 am

Are the Christian fundamentalists much better?
What does the Bible tell us?
Who should we kill? ?

- Homosexuals (Lev.20:13, Rom.1:26-32)
- Adulterers (Lev.20:10, Deut.22:22)
- Disobedient children (Deut.21:20-21, Lev.20:9, Exod.21:15)
- Women who are not virgins on their wedding night (Deut.22:13-21)
- All non-Christians (parable told by Christ - Luke.19:27)
- Those accused of wickedness by at least two people (Deut.17:2-7)
- Anyone who works on the Sabbath (Exod.35:2-3, Num.15:32-6)
(not even to kindle a fire, and no exclusion for ambulance drivers)

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:RoHqbVD2YwsJ:2seek.wordpress.com/2007/07/15/so-what-does-the-bible-tell-us/ if your children are disobedient kill them&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=10&gl=ca

Other Comments by Scep

237. Comment #230068 by thewhitepearl on August 14, 2008 at 8:10 am

 avatarPearl uses her super ninja abilities to jump over the fireball, quickly recovers from the smack, and double round house kicks Quetz in the face.

Pearl then teleports back to Philip knocks the new tea out of Philips hand and uses her space and time manipulative powers to put up a time wall barrier. He is now shielded and thus Quetz is unable to reach him.

Other Comments by thewhitepearl

238. Comment #230069 by Tyler Durden on August 14, 2008 at 8:11 am

 avatarComment #230067 by Scep
Are the Christian fundamentalists much better?
But... but... that's just the Old Testament they'll say. We've moved on from all that they'll say. We're peaceful and loving people they'll say. Jesus loves you they'll say. Come join us...

And we'll laugh. Oh, how we will laugh.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

239. Comment #230070 by irate_atheist on August 14, 2008 at 8:15 am

 avatar305. Comment #230069 by Tyler Durden -

Have heard precisely the same statement from my in-laws. They're 'New Testament' Christians (must be a new breakaway sect no-one's heard of). But they still quote stuff in the old one when it suits them. Cognitive dissonance? Shurely shome mishtake.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

240. Comment #230071 by Quetzalcoatl on August 14, 2008 at 8:15 am

 avatarthewhitepearl-

Pearl uses her super ninja abilities to jump over the fireball, quickly recovers from the smack, and double round house kicks Quetz in the face.


Quetz becomes suspicious of all these extra abilities that Pearl has suddenly acquired.

Quetz dodges the roundhouse kicks by transforming into a mighty serpent and winding around Pearl, delivering a swift bite to her neck to incapacitate her.

Pearl then teleports back to Philip knocks the new tea out of Philips hand and uses her space and time manipulative powers to put up a time wall barrier. He is now shielded and thus Quetz is unable to reach him.


Still confused from Quetz's venomous but strangely enjoyable bite, Pearl fails to realise that the Philip she has attacked is a clone, created by Quetz to protect the true Philip.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

241. Comment #230072 by Philip1978 on August 14, 2008 at 8:16 am

 avatarScep

Good post, I think you are right about the Libel having some horrible disgusting things in it - funny thing is if you hurl those at a Christian like lets say David Robertson, the worse you will get back is some sarcasm - say it in America and Bill Donahue might turn puce - but on the whole you wont get lynched for it too much - the most you get back is a cherry picked quote about Jesus loving you or something.

Insult the Qu'ran and you might get a different answer - go seek Islamic Joe on this site somewhere and its CAPITAL LETTERS TIME!

The Qu'ran pretty much is the infallible word of Allah and I would think, though could be wrong, that that is the central doctrine of Islam.

At least with Christianity now there is slightly more lee-way in interpreting the Libel to suit a more passive stance - not that Christianity isn't still quite bellicose, but there is a significant difference

Am I wiffling?

Other Comments by Philip1978

242. Comment #230073 by utelme on August 14, 2008 at 8:18 am

Comment 230061 by Donald
Not everyone is a gentleman. Some of us/me become hind brainers when we feel threatened. Kindly discussion isn't always possible under these conditions and, in fact, may not even be desirable.

Other Comments by utelme

243. Comment #230075 by EeekiE on August 14, 2008 at 8:19 am

 avatarLEAVE ReverseBishopPositionKate ALONE!!

Other Comments by EeekiE

244. Comment #230076 by Don_Quix on August 14, 2008 at 8:20 am

 avatarI thought the article was pretty dead on.

I could have done without that BJKate or whatever her name is further up in the comments making herself look like an abrasive, bullying, and ignorant fool.

Other Comments by Don_Quix

245. Comment #230077 by irate_atheist on August 14, 2008 at 8:25 am

 avatar308. Comment #230072 by Philip1978 -

This is the case now, but would not have been a couple of centuries ago. The book has not changed, the interpretations have, and so have what the believers are allowed to do according to the laws of the land.

If the book doesn't change, I for one, cannot see how stages two and three will occur in, say, Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan. Given the nature of Islam, maybe it is not possible to change - the whole belief system based on the Quran has to be expunged for it to become inert.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

246. Comment #230078 by EeekiE on August 14, 2008 at 8:25 am

 avatarScep, you're right, but that isn't the point that's being made. Exactly because people questioned and mocked Christianity, those horrific verses you mention have limply shrivelled into various "oh no you're just reading it wrong" cop-outs like a penis in a walk-in freezer full of wax-work Margaret Thatchers.

Other Comments by EeekiE

247. Comment #230081 by irate_atheist on August 14, 2008 at 8:30 am

 avatarEeekie -

What a horrific vision. And I'm not even referring to the flaccid penises.

Other Comments by irate_atheist

248. Comment #230086 by decius on August 14, 2008 at 8:41 am

 avatarComment #230067 by Scep

So what? No one here subscribes to the view that christianity is morally superior to islam in its fundamental tenets.
Yet, the enlightenment has emasculated christendom by means of reason and criticism, while the islamic world still lags behind in the Dark Ages.
Failing to recognise this, while reciting mea culpa, is myopic and uninformed, to say the least.

Other Comments by decius

249. Comment #230089 by Scep on August 14, 2008 at 8:47 am

Philip, you are not waffling at all, but to me religion and the supernatural just simply have to die for a better world to emerge.

When you have a president, and many of his supporters, believe that JC comes back shortly, you may want to make the "shortly" a little "shorter".

Why not go to war and create chaos? After all you are of the chosen ones! Why worry about the environment and global warming? You are going to be in paradise "shortly" anyway, maybe without the 72 virgins but paradise just the same?

Bottom line, science must rule! Without more of us having a basic scientific education things will not change for the better, anywhere.

Other Comments by Scep

250. Comment #230092 by mordacious1 on August 14, 2008 at 8:51 am

Good morning all, took me awhile to catch up on this thread. WOW.

I feel bad, I was having a nice discussion with Laurie, went to bed, then all this started. Laurie is too nice to deal with this thing without someone with a flamethrower to back him up (or a cricket bat).

I'm surprised, not to get this started again (hehe), that no one mentioned the large pink elephant in the room when the discussion was about BFKate's initials.

Other Comments by mordacious1
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