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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

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451. Comment #13941 by MartinSGill on December 20, 2006 at 7:42 am

 avatarMy Condolences on your recent loss Fedler.

I've not lost someone close yet, and hopefully I won't for a long time, so I can't really imagine what it must be like for you.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

452. Comment #13942 by MartinSGill on December 20, 2006 at 7:44 am

 avatarYou're welcome NoLongerHaveBelief.

Please don't forget to close your tags though.. or you'll upset the follow on posts :P

Other Comments by MartinSGill

453. Comment #13951 by Fedler on December 20, 2006 at 8:43 am

 avatarThanks, Martin.

The initial shock and disbelief has tempered, but I just wanted to let Mr. Robertson know where my recent religious questioning comes from. We all question for different reasons, and that's where mine originated.

I guess I'm becoming atheist and learning how it changes my world view (for the better, I think). I find it harder in practice moving against the social tide.

OK, I don't know why I'm posting in italics...

Other Comments by Fedler

454. Comment #13956 by MartinSGill on December 20, 2006 at 9:09 am

 avatarNoLongerHaveBelief forgot to close one of his italics tags :P

Using a bit of underhanded sneakyness, I've turned off the italics again :). Prize for anyone that can guess how I did it :P

Fedler, you don't have to preach or try to convince everyone else of your views. In the UK being an atheist shouldn't pose any problems, for the most part, if you'r USian then I suspect it will be harder. Just avoid the subject. I wouldn't lie to a direct question, but it possible to avoid the issue totally, one more piece of circumstantial evidence that god has zero impact on everyday life.

I hang out here both to learn about science and the different views atheists have (I think atheists are much more varied in this regard than theists), and there are loads of really smart people here. I also use it to confirmation of what I already know, my atheism. Every so often someone like roberston comes up with an arguement for theism that I hadn't heard of before and I actually need to think and do a bit of research to answer it. Alas robertson is not overly innovative in this regard. He just keeps rephrasing the same arguements.

While I don't intend to actually convert anyone, if I did i'd be posting on theist sites, I'm always happy if what I say helps others decide for themselves that atheism is the right view of the world.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

455. Comment #13963 by Fedler on December 20, 2006 at 10:03 am

 avatarMartin,

I am in the U.S., in Iowa, right in the middle of the euphemistically titled "Bible Belt" of the U.S. The Bible thumpers thump pretty hard around here, although thankfully I think I'm in a pretty liberal part of the belt.

I, too, have found the intellectual prowess of those that post here to be a tremendous benefit and a good challenge to myself.

That being said, way to turn off the italics my sneaky friend!

Other Comments by Fedler

456. Comment #13965 by BillySands on December 20, 2006 at 10:12 am

 avatarHi Fedler, May I offer my condolences too. I started questioning myself, partly as a result of a traumatic incident involving another christian and partly because some things just never made sense to me. I found it hard to give up my faith initially, I guess I still wanted it to be true, but I think you have to be honest with yourself. To be honest, when I look back, my faith kept me in a one sided parasitic relationship. I found trusting god just made things worse. Dont know if you have felt this, but the more you move away from faith the better things look. giving up faith is hard, but I can definately say it is worth it in the long term.

Martin, because I couldn't explain how italics and bold letters appear on your posts, I thought god did it. now that it has been explained, i no longer believe in you. I wont make the mistake of inventing god to explain my ignorance again. Just incase you are testing my faith, can I have a BMX for Xmas?
One of my christian frirnds just gave me the case against christ. I thought that was amazingly open minded of him, until I realised it was an apologetic work - git! oh well, I suppose I did send him an iron maiden Xmas card.

Other Comments by BillySands

457. Comment #13966 by MartinSGill on December 20, 2006 at 10:25 am

 avatarNo you can't.. you don't believe in santa :P

Here's a potentially interesting aside for you. Do you know that in germany and austria Jesus Christ is actually still around? The christmas presents are not brought by santa, but by the Christkindl. The "Christ Child". He snuck in through keyholes and delivered presents that are opened on christmas eve.

Personally, I think british christians need to protest at the rank injustice that jesus does not deliver presents to them. Obviously german and austrian children are favoured by christ :P. English kids need to make do with some old fat man in a red suit. Mind you.. i think I prefer the old fat guy... :P

Other Comments by MartinSGill

458. Comment #13968 by Ole on December 20, 2006 at 10:28 am

 avatarDavid, I would like to continue looking at this sentence:

God is outside of time and space. (This is not to say that he is not also in time and space and that there is not plenty evidence for him there).

What I'm trying to understand is where in the "spectrum" you are in your understanding of god.

At one end of this "spectrum" you find Spinoza's and Einstein's God (as the sum total of the laws of physics). At the other end is the Creator in the old Testament - a male with a beard, sitting on a throne in the sky.

At his first lecture in Scotland (The Gifford Lectures, 1985), Carl Sagan was asked if science one day will come upon a demonstration of the existence of God.

In his answer he talks about this "spectrum" (he uses the word "two poles"). First he comment:
The answer depends very much on what we mean by God. The word "god" is used to cover a vast multitude of mutually exclusive ideas.

Sagan find evidence that God exists in the Einsteinian way.

About the opposite pole (note god in small cases) his answer is: Now, for that kind of god I maintain there is no evidence.

The problem with your position, David, is your "fuzzy" logic. You try to put your god into both positions.

Regards,
Ole

P.S.
More from Carl Sagan, get the newly published book "The Varieties of Scientific Experience".

Other Comments by Ole

459. Comment #13970 by BillySands on December 20, 2006 at 10:45 am

 avatarthat jesus is so fickle. the jews used to be the chosen people, then the spanish, then the catholics, then the protestants, now the germans. When do atheists get their turn?

Other Comments by BillySands

460. Comment #13974 by Fedler on December 20, 2006 at 11:44 am

 avatarVirgin birth in the animal kingdom! Did god do it?

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/europe/12/20/uk.komodo.reut/index.html

"It's nature finding a way" is the best quote of the story.

I just thought it was interesting :).

Other Comments by Fedler

461. Comment #13980 by BillySands on December 20, 2006 at 12:11 pm

 avatarYeah Fedler, just saw it on the news. It is interesting that they are all male. A similar thing happens in some beetles and bees. Unfertilised eggs produce males. It even occurs in fish (can never remember the species, but it is an all female species produced by hybridisation and uses a male from a related species to kick start development, but the male has no genetic input - they are related to guppies, mollies and swordtails if that helps any)

Now, before the fundies go see, it doesn't happen in people, and if it did, it could only produce females. This is because females have two X chromosomes, and males have onlt one and a Y chromosome, that females dont have. A woman can only ever produce XX female, since she has no Y. I'm sure there is a theist out there tring to postulate that jesus was a bearded lady.

Other Comments by BillySands

462. Comment #14004 by BillySands on December 20, 2006 at 3:43 pm

 avatarNice one Torbjorn. Very well put!

Other Comments by BillySands

463. Comment #14046 by MartinSGill on December 21, 2006 at 1:39 am

 avatarAbsolutely beautiful Torbjorn.

I now need to spend the next hour looking up some of the words :P

I'm sure you said the same things as me... of course I won't know that until I've finished playing with the dictionary :)

Other Comments by MartinSGill

464. Comment #14054 by David A Robertson on December 21, 2006 at 2:17 am

760. Comment #13904 by MartinSGill on December 20, 2006 at

Martin,

Please don't feel the need to repost the whole of my article. I assume people have the intelligence to read it for themselves.

"A series of ad hominem paragraphs, dripping with contempt, that don't actually add any substance, just so much hot air."

I am getting a little tired of the constant mantra on this site re ad hominem. It seems as though anything you don't like and are not prepared to argue against you dismiss as ad hominem. Perhaps you could let me know what was ad homienem about the paragraphs you cite? I could certainly give you dozens of ad hominem arguments from TGD and this thread. Here's a couple for starters – Look at Westboro Baptist (God hates faggots). Or David Robertson's church locks up swings on a Sunday (not true) so God does not exist! Now that's ad hominem.

"You argue that complexity and order must be result of an intelligence, since only human intelligence can create the complexity and order in our modern society."

Wrong. Once you work out what I argue please feel free to argue against it. Meanwhile I don't have the time to argue for something I don't even believe!

"The simple FACT of the matter is that we don't know how the constants of our universe came to be as they are. While this doesn't rule out a divine entity, neither does it support the existance of one."

I almost agree. The trouble is that Dawkins bases his whole argument upon the fact that it does disprove God – because a designer could not exist….

"Logical fallacy, appeal to authority. Just because one person believes something doesn't make it true."

There is a certain desperation in your arguments. Quoting people such as Darwin, Collins et al is not 'an appeal to authority'. It is citing what other human beings, experts in the field have taught.

" If you want to base your proof of god on what people think, then you will lose. There are 1.6 billion christians on the planet (leaving asside that some of them might not actually believe what you do) that means there are 4.4 billion people that think you are wrong."
Bizarre. Since when was truth decided by majority vote?

"Your final arguement is a logical fallacy on just so many levels. Just because some entity might be able to create the universe doens't mean that it's able to create a virgin birth, or ressurect people"

Interesting use of logic. For me if someone is able to do the much greater thing then doing the lesser should not be a problem. If John can run a marathon I don't doubt that he can walk to the corner shop.

761. Comment #13907 by MartinSGill on December 20, 2006 at 3:08 am

"It's an attempt to make Jesus special. To show that he is different to others."

But what is it an allegory of? Do you understand what an allegory is?

.
"Thank you very much. I was making this point a couple of pages back. Since people have been born of virgins it therefore means that God does not need to be involved."

Again a wonderful example of missing the point! People argue that God cannot exist because virgin births don't occur. I point out that actually they do occur. And now you occur that the fact that virgin births can occur means that God does not exist!

"You disagree with many christians on this point, and more importantly you disagree with all of the many bibles I have quoted here."

Actually I don't. I have no problem with the translation but I do have a problem with the meaning you ascribe to it. I have read all the early Church fathers, and many theologians throughout the ages. I have a dozen commentaries on my shelves about Matthew and not one of them holds to the literalist understanding you do. But it is hard to argue with a fundamentalist who already just knows the truth and is determined to ignore all evidence contrary to his position.

"The only difference between us and animals is that we have formalised our laws, and because we live more complex lives our laws are equally more complex."

Interesting. Can you then justify eating a Beefburger – just because we have a more sophisticated legal system than the cows?

"What a strange selective view you have of history. It's easy enough for me to show that morality has evolved. We used to keep slaves, now we think it's immoral. We used to discriminate against black people, now we think it's immoral. We used to discriminate against women, now we think it's immoral. We used to think indiscriminatingly killing civilians (WW2) in war was acceptable (albeit unpleasant), now we think it's immoral and actively work against it."

Weird weird history. And what a closed middle class Western view of the world. There are actually more slaves in the world now than there ever have been. And there is as much discrimination as ever. As for indiscriminately killing civilians – that is something that continues. Indeed one could argue that it was a product of the 20th century – and one that owed a great deal to Darwinian thinking. Certainly the view that human beings are getting better and better is a nice fairy tale. But not one that is bourne out by the facts.

765. Comment #13918 by Ole on December 20, 2006 at 4:39 am

Ole, Sorry I don't really understand what you are asking. If you are asking 'what is God made of'. Then I no more have an answer to that than I do – who made God. When I say that God is outside of time and space it does not mean that he cannot also come inside time and space- the supreme example of which being Jesus Christ.

766. Comment #13925 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 20, 2006 at 6:10 am

Sorry _ I cannot seriously discuss with someone who thinks that numbers do not exist.


768. Comment #13938 by Fedler on December 20, 2006 at 7:16 am

"Mr. Robertson, technically I find our two statements to mean the same thing. Please correct me if I'm wrong. Science strives to find the knowledge to fill the gaps.

Yes – you are right.

"I apologize for getting a bit sensitive. I've been struggling with religion and religious explanations ever since my dad was killed last year by a drunk driver, so I'm finding my tolerance becoming shorter on certain things in which I'm trying to find knowledge about (which could also be my age settling in)."

Understood. It's when we have to face personal issues like this that we realize that these questions are way beyond just debating. I do hope that you were not presented with the kind of trite religious explanations about the death of your father which to my mind end up being cruel (as well as stupid).

774. Comment #13956 by MartinSGill on December 20, 2006 at 9:09 am

"I hang out here both to learn about science and the different views atheists have (I think atheists are much more varied in this regard than theists), and there are loads of really smart people here."

Martin – forgive me saying this. But are you really serious about atheists having different views?! This website is like any fundamentalist religious website – the clones all agree and those who disagree get yelled at or classed as a troll!

" I also use it to confirmation of what I already know, my atheism."

As I suspected.

778. Comment #13968 by Ole on December 20, 2006 at 10:28 am
"At one end of this "spectrum" you find Spinoza's and Einstein's God (as the sum total of the laws of physics). At the other end is the Creator in the old Testament - a male with a beard, sitting on a throne in the sky."

Sorry that is a caricature and certainly not the God portrayed in the OT. The choice is not between the two extremes that you postulate.


782. Comment #13990 by Torbjörn Larsson on December 20, 2006 at 2:10 pm



In order for there to be natural selection there has to be something to select.

"This is a vast ignorance of how science and the main theory in biology works which of course would distress Dawkins. Scientific theories works with observed properties to give predictions. They can't explain everything at once, nor do they have to. "

Indeed. That is precisely my point. There are limitations to the theory of evolution. What you cannot do from the theory of evolution is extrapolate backwards to prove there is no God.


"This is again a vast ignorance of how science works. The question of how the universe and its laws originated is further removed from evolution."
Absolutely. Therefore for Dawkins to seek to prove there is no God on the basis of the theory of evolution is ludicrous.
)

"There are currently several possibilities. Our bigbang universe may have started as from a prespace without spacetime. It could also be embedded in a multiverse setting, again started from a prespace or infinitely old. This is not "nonsensical fantasy" but proposed hypotheses in science which might give predictions that can be tested."

Please test it. Show us the empirical evidence that there are many universes. And please let me know about myself with a green moustache in one of them – or dead in another….

"And it doesn't need a designer."

Which is why it has been made up. Some people will do anything to justify their atheism…

I havn't a clue what the rest of your post is talking about. But it sounds good and since it is anti-God doubtless Billy, Martin et al will pronounce it wonderful! And I guess Gingerich, Fred Hoyle and others must be pretty ignorant too – not understanding probability theory etc.

"Instead what you let us see is that the theology you use is not based on a tolerable faith but on special pleading and gods-of-the-gaps apologetics in order to wage a loosing battle against science, skepticism, and other good forces in society. "

I guess you see what you want to see. I specifically argue against the God of the gaps idea. What you are doing is enacting a 'Science of the gaps'. The view that religion is against science, skepticism and other good forces in society is itself so prejudiced and 19th century that it is laughable. Many scientists are religious, many religious people are skeptical (hence my mocking of Dawkin's postulating my existing in another universe with a green moustache) and many forces are good which come from religion. But in the black and white world of atheist fundamentalism I guess that's too much to acknowledge!

Other Comments by David A Robertson

465. Comment #14056 by Ole on December 21, 2006 at 2:19 am

 avatarDavid Robertson,

A suggestion for you. It would be more interesting ( easier to follow and read) if you could pick one or two of Torbjörn Larsson excellent points and address them more closely.

Ole

P.S.
You said: Sorry that is a caricature and certainly not the God portrayed in the OT. The choice is not between the two extremes that you postulate. Well if that is a caricature, there are people that have (or had) that kind of faith. One I knew was my grand mother (she tried to explain her god to me when I was ten and I think I felt sorry for her believing in a kind of Santa Claus in the sky).
I did not postulate those two poles btw, it was Carl Sagan. Maybe you should read his book?

Other Comments by Ole

466. Comment #14080 by MartinSGill on December 21, 2006 at 4:15 am

 avatar
Wrong. Once you work out what I argue please feel free to argue against it. Meanwhile I don't have the time to argue for something I don't even believe!


The problem is that your argument is neither coherent nor consistent, so it's hard to actually pin down what it is you really believe. THe problem is that your belief seems to be rather fluid, diverting and reforming around arguments.

Maybe if you presented a coherent and consistent arguement we might actually be able to get somewhere.

"The simple FACT of the matter is that we don't know how the constants of our universe came to be as they are. While this doesn't rule out a divine entity, neither does it support the existance of one."

I almost agree. The trouble is that Dawkins bases his whole argument upon the fact that it does disprove God – because a designer could not exist….


You again fail to understand atheism and what dawkins is telling you. You bend it so that you can more easily argue against it. Dawkins does not disprove god and he doesn't set out to do so, maybe you should read the opening chapter again, you seem to have conviniently forgotten it. The whole point is that god is extremely improbable. Therefore anything that doesn't actively support a god hypothesis cannot be used to increase the probablity of a god. Therefore the probability of god is not increased by us not knowing how the constants of the universe came about, and as such cannot be used as an arguement for god.


There is a certain desperation in your arguments. Quoting people such as Darwin, Collins et al is not 'an appeal to authority'. It is citing what other human beings, experts in the field have taught.


Pot and Kettle. When I use experts in the field to support my view you disregard them, please allow me do the same then.


" If you want to base your proof of god on what people think, then you will lose. There are 1.6 billion christians on the planet (leaving asside that some of them might not actually believe what you do) that means there are 4.4 billion people that think you are wrong."

Bizarre. Since when was truth decided by majority vote?


Yes, that was my point. Glad you figured it out.



Martin – forgive me saying this. But are you really serious about atheists having different views?! This website is like any fundamentalist religious website – the clones all agree and those who disagree get yelled at or classed as a troll!


You are forgiven. You also need to look up what a troll is in netiquette terms. You seem to use a very broad definition of fundamentalism, anyone that believes passionatly seems to be a fundamentalist in your view. This lumps you into that category as well. If dawkins is a fundamentalist for passionatly trying to convince people of his views, then so is every preist of every religion, or for that matter teachers.


Interesting use of logic. For me if someone is able to do the much greater thing then doing the lesser should not be a problem. If John can run a marathon I don't doubt that he can walk to the corner shop.


Define greater and lesser. Just because someone can create a unvierse doesn't mean they can do other things. You cannot logically assume one from the other. For example, neurosurgeons are extremely good at what they do, yet nurses complain that they tend to be useless giving first aid. By your argument someone that is amazing at healing really complex human problems, should also be able to give first aid. The two just don't follow. You therefore cannot use that as an arguement. It's logically invalid. For all we know creating a universe is actually really easy, but resurrecting someone dead is really hard. The thing is you can't know which is the easier, because humans have never done either, therefore you cannot compare them and use them as an argument.


" I also use it to confirmation of what I already know, my atheism."

As I suspected.


Isn't this obvious? The reason you go to church is to reinforce what you already believe. That makes you no different to any atheist. People prefer to be around people they argee with.

As to thinking atheists have a more open view of things. I base that on personal experience, so I cannot offer you proof. The majority of christians I have met are very narrow minded. A few aren't, just as I am sure there are atheists that are narrow minded. The difference is that my personal experience show that christians tend to be the more narrow minded. Maybe my sample isn't a good representation, but for my sample at least, it is correct.


"The only difference between us and animals is that we have formalised our laws, and because we live more complex lives our laws are equally more complex."

Interesting. Can you then justify eating a Beefburger – just because we have a more sophisticated legal system than the cows?


Again, you fail to grasp the point at hand, making facetious comparisions that add nothing to the debate. I cannot debate with someone that simplifies everything to the point of banality. Assume for once, that humans are not superior to all other animals and you will quickly realise how silly your comments actually are.


Weird weird history. And what a closed middle class Western view of the world. There are actually more slaves in the world now than there ever have been. And there is as much discrimination as ever. As for indiscriminately killing civilians – that is something that continues. Indeed one could argue that it was a product of the 20th century – and one that owed a great deal to Darwinian thinking. Certainly the view that human beings are getting better and better is a nice fairy tale. But not one that is bourne out by the facts.


One could argue that, but one would be wrong. The genocidal slaughters in the bible are proof enough that the indiscriminate slaughter of civilians in war was not a 20th century invention and had nothing to do with dawrin at all. Since the slaughters are described in the bible, once should therefore argue that it's god's invention maybe?

As to there being more people enslaved now than in biblical times, you are probably right, on a numerical level. The problem with your argument is that, again, you fail to take into account how the world has changed. In biblical times the world population was less than the current population of London. When you compare the percentage of people enslaved you'll find that the percentage of slaves the world over has gone down considerably. In roman times there were periods where the number of slaves outnumbered the actual "citizens", are you saying that this is the case now?


Sorry _ I cannot seriously discuss with someone who thinks that numbers do not exist.


That's strange. Do you think money exists? It doesn't you know, at least not according to my GCSE business studies books. Money is an abstraction, just like numbers and maths. If people lost "faith" in the value of their abstract piece of paper there'd be chaos, the economy would collapse as people panic buy gold, jewlery and land.

Just to show you how abstract money really is, the US federal reserve has just made it illegal to melt down low denomination US coins because the face value of the coin is actually worth less than the physical value of the metal to create it. If money weren't abstract, that would be a paradox.

Since you cannot believe in numbers as abstract... does that mean you don't use money?

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467. Comment #14083 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 4:26 am

 avatarLooks like I will have to go on Davids site, and if I win even one convert, that will annoy him sooooo much.
One problem with David is that he tries to counter Torbjorn's excellent post by saying I don't understand it, but someone who I WANT to be right disagrees with you (if indeed they do). But wait, this is David's "killer" arguement, but he clearly doesn't understand what he is argueing about - doh! Do you possess any feet David? Or have you shot them both off several times over? Oh looks like blind faith and poor research to me.
David Why do you think that ignorance is an arguement for god? That's the point I was making about Martin's bold letters. Your god is so full of himself, has spoken directly to people in the bible. So where the hell is he. It's not that hard to find someone like that. What a stupid thing to say.
I can see where NLHBs is comming from. David, give me a 2. Not a plastic symbol or the like, but give me a 2! you cant, because as an entity, it doesn't exist - oh, wait I see why you believe in god then.....
Ever notice that central to the christian beLIEf, there is a LIE?
Right, I'm off into cyberspace to see what the so called evidence for god existing out side of space and time is. I can guess a few stupid verses, lets see if Im right.

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468. Comment #14084 by MartinSGill on December 21, 2006 at 4:35 am

 avatar
"Thank you very much. I was making this point a couple of pages back. Since people have been born of virgins it therefore means that God does not need to be involved."

Again a wonderful example of missing the point! People argue that God cannot exist because virgin births don't occur. I point out that actually they do occur. And now you occur that the fact that virgin births can occur means that God does not exist!


I have never argued that. I have always stated that birth cannot occur without insemination by a male, as you should know, since I've posted to that effect here, including a couple of examples of how it could happen.

You are also failing to accept that mary could be lying. Maybe she had an affair with the milkman and jesus was the result. Given the punishment for adultery and pre-marital sex was stoning one can see that lying about it would be in her own best interest.

Since a child can be born without the need for sexual intercourse, even in biblical times, there is zero need to suppose any god was involved.

Basically it comes down to what you use to measure virginity. Is Mary's word good enough? An inspection of the hymen? Or do we need ensure mary has been locked into a room on her own with zero male contact all her life?

Realistically the test for virginity in biblical times would be option 1 or 2. We know people lie, and Mary, if she had an affair would have massive reasons to lie, we also know that people can have sexual intercourse without the hymen breaking.

A repeat of my previous arguments on this subject, and proof that there is no need at all for any deity to be involved in the conception of jesus.

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469. Comment #14086 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 4:37 am

 avatarmartin, if you want a laugh, look this up. David, do the same if you want educated.
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/search/label/God
God in the bible alone has killed in excess of 2,270,365 people, and plans to kill at least another 3.25 billion. Oh, and satan has only killed 10

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470. Comment #14088 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 4:43 am

 avatar"Since a child can be born without the need for sexual intercourse, even in biblical times, there is zero need to suppose any god was involved."

That and the fact we have already shown the virgin birth prophecy to be a non prophecy concerning jesus anyway.
It's amazing the straws that david grasps at to try and cite evidence. No need to believe god was involves, and the prophecy is not about jesus, but god still did it. How illogical is that! All because a self contradictory and inaccurate book used to justify the deeds of an intolerant people says so. No that is crazy faith, not evidence.

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471. Comment #14091 by MartinSGill on December 21, 2006 at 4:50 am

 avatarThanks billy, but I've read about that count a couple of times.

Satan sounds like a much nicer fellow to me.

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472. Comment #14096 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 4:59 am

 avatarWell, Satan is an anagram of Santa. I think the fundies did a bad pr job on him and changed his name

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473. Comment #14100 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 5:45 am

 avatarI found this site on whether god is outside of space and time http://www.ukapologetics.net/godoutoftime.htm
And guess what, the theologians can't agree. So, when David tries to dodge the question of who created god with this nonsense, he is actually using a far from biblically supported point of view. The fact that the evidence comes for the bible is of course not without it's own fatal flaws. The verses used are incredibly weak. The use of the term everlasting for example does not put you out with time. Infact, the bible uses everlasting for the earth and I think mountains too. I will have to check. So, davids arguement that he has indicated that he does not understand is taken from the bible (using selective verses and ignoring others and contradicts some professional theologians). He hasn't even shown that god wrote the bible, let alone seen or spoken with god, or even proved that god even exists, so coupled with the arguement from incredulity, this is evidence that an unproven being created the universe. Is that a fair representation David?
Considering the consequences of choosing the wrong god David, I would think that you would at least attempt to understand the arguement.
So, like we keep saying you have a highly irrational faith, NOT evidence

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474. Comment #14109 by MartinSGill on December 21, 2006 at 6:52 am

 avatar
I guess you see what you want to see. I specifically argue against the God of the gaps idea. What you are doing is enacting a 'Science of the gaps'. The view that religion is against science, skepticism and other good forces in society is itself so prejudiced and 19th century that it is laughable. Many scientists are religious, many religious people are skeptical (hence my mocking of Dawkin's postulating my existing in another universe with a green moustache) and many forces are good which come from religion. But in the black and white world of atheist fundamentalism I guess that's too much to acknowledge!


The problem you have Dave is that you seem to personalise all the arguements against a god, you also seem to personalise what Dawkins says in his book.

The problem is that much as you might like to think otherwise, your view of Jesus Christ and the bible is significantly different to most other Christians.

Mormons believe that Jesus visisted the US and theat the Jews were the first colonists there.

Almost 50% of american christians believe that the earth is less than 10,000 years old, despite what science tells us.

The argumement here isn't that you disregard science and facts, but that most of your contemporaries do. Do you agree with the new african sect about to splinter from the anglican church that gays should have less rights than hetrosexuals, despite sufficient evidence to show that homosexuality is natural, and hence must have also been "created" by god?

I suspect one of the reasons you think of all atheists here as fundamentalists is because you only see our opposition to your own interpretation of religion, instead of seeing that we actually oppose all incarnations of relgion, from the relatively harmless views you hold to the looney creationist homicidal revelationists.

You might not take every word of the bible literally, but there are millions of chrisitans that do. There are also millions of christians that doubt the virgin birth ever happend, but who still accept jesus as the son of god. The majority of jews consider most old tesament stories to be legends and fables, so why is it that so many christians don't?

The problem you face is how do you justify that what you read in the bible is correct, and that those others read is wrong? Furthermore, how do you know the Jews, who insist that jesus wasn't anything special, aren't right? How do you know the hindus aren't right, or Islam?

You have no real way of knowing if what you believe is actually correct. If you are the rational skeptical christian you claim to be, can you at least accept this?

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475. Comment #14125 by Fedler on December 21, 2006 at 8:19 am

 avatarUnderstood. It's when we have to face personal issues like this that we realize that these questions are way beyond just debating. I do hope that you were not presented with the kind of trite religious explanations about the death of your father which to my mind end up being cruel (as well as stupid).

As expected, I did get a lot of the 'standard' religious explanations, such as:

"It's was God's plan…"
"It was God's will…"
"It happened for a reason…." (usually to teach us humility), etc..

I think my epiphany on religious questioning came during my father's wake service (for those not familiar with Catholicism, this is essentially a public viewing period for family and friends to pay their last respects prior to the funeral. I'm not sure if other religions have a similar service). During this wake service all my family deserted the service and went to my grandmother's house (which just happened to be across the street from the church). I think they went there for lunch. But it was in that moment when I was all alone in this huge stone and marble church with my father's body in the casket and a parade of my father's friends past his body that I felt a sense of abandonment on the part of religion, in that my family (a very religious family) just up and ditched my father in the middle of his own wake service.

While I don't pretend to generalize that this happens at all services, it did start me questioning my families' true commitment to the ideals in their faith, which inevitably lead me to question my own. While the 'god's will' and 'god's plan' explanations feel entirely unhelpful and empty, the explanation that it happened for a reason didn't fare much better. While a life lesson can be learned from it, I sincerely doubt a reason can be attributed to my father's death.

I agree that these questions are way beyond just debating or discussion, however I choose to continue because I don't see another way to seek knowledge. I know you have told me before to pray to God for the answers I seek, but that seems a bit paradoxical considering what I believe now (a bit like praying to Zeus or Bertrand Russell's celestial teapot).

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476. Comment #14127 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 8:29 am

 avatarit seems David is still calling us Fundamentalists. I am prepared to chage my view in the light of evidence. He is not. That makes him a fundie, not the majority of us. He doesn't understand the term ad hominem properly
http://www.fcosonline.org/index.php?topic=1797.0
Interesting ponits david, When I have time, I will come on your site. I noticed you left out the insults you threw at others - naughty hypocrite!

And yes David, you are far from perfect. By the way, want to buy a copy of that T shirt?

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477. Comment #14128 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 8:31 am

 avatarOh and there is no course on destroying christianity. It is just lots of people coming to the same glaringly obvious conclisions independantly

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478. Comment #14135 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 8:47 am

 avatarHi Fedler,
This is obviously a very emotional subject, and I hope you take my comment in a well meaning way, and realise that I am just sharing and not telling you what to do.
I too needed answers for something. I prayed and prayed with no answer. That frustrated and upset me even more. It made the whole situation even worse, because I felt god was abandoning me, and no good came from that situation. I found that trusting in god was not helping me move on, it was only keeping me in a bad place. I now realise that I had no evidence that god exists, and that there is no evidence thathe exists. I now realise that I was deluded. The reason that no answers came is not because god is there happy to not intervene in my torment, but because he is not there. I feel much better now that I know the truth. I actually feel comfort realising that there is no god
Hope that has been of some use to you in your quest
All the best
Billy

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479. Comment #14136 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 21, 2006 at 9:00 am

>>Comment #13990 by Torbjörn Larsson <<

What an awesome posting! I LOVE what I can learn from fellow Atheists!

I'd like to add to this, if I may Torbjorn:

>>That solipsism can't be ruled out at this stage<<

I think this is true! David certainly believes in himself.

Sorry Martin. I shall try not error in future!

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480. Comment #14138 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 21, 2006 at 9:08 am

>>Comment #14086 by BillySands<<

A fascinating link Billy. Thanks!

Hmmm. Thought God was all-loving though? Hmmm. On second reflection, maybe we should be giving Satan our full support?

After all, he is obviously more of a Humanist than God and rolling around naked in the flames, seems more interesting than flying around on a cloud playing a harp!

Before you jump on my above statement Mr.Robertson, I am only joking. Christians like a joke don't they? Or am I being a literalist again?

I don't think Christians have a sense of humour. Unless of course, you consider what a laugh the Old Testament is.

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

481. Comment #14151 by Fedler on December 21, 2006 at 9:42 am

 avatarThanks for sharing, Billy. I'm beginning to realize the same things you talked about. When the 'god hypothesis' is taken out of the equation, things become simpler and more logical.

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482. Comment #14169 by INTJohn on December 21, 2006 at 10:41 am

God - if your really there - please "save" me from your followers.

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483. Comment #14240 by BillySands on December 21, 2006 at 3:47 pm

 avatarIt seems that David does not like us to have the freedom of speech that we let him enjoy. At the time of writing, this post has been deleted twice from his site.
"It's amusing to watch how you fundamentalist christians react whenever your faith is attacked. You really should let me write your posts for you. It's the usual comments - Straw men - AD hominem - Hitler was an atheist - and my personal favourite 'Communism is atheistic' (a bit like arguing christianity is not theistic). And I also love 'christianity is not a dogmatic belief system'. Yeah like this website just oozes non dogmatism, rationalism and tolerance.
I have just written to Richard Dawkins and congratulated him on producing such a thoughtful and balanced book. I also warned him that the christian fundamentalists who inhabit this particular area of cyberspace were being indoctrinated against atheists."

The funny thing is that it is a response to a misrepresentation of atheists that he made, AND it is essentially his words I am using with atheist replaced with christian. His original comment is here
http://richarddawkins.net/articleTrollComments,442,The-Trouble-with-Atheism,Rod-Liddle-Channel-4,page1 and says
"Thanks Evolved and others for bringing my attention to this. And thanks for the e-mail address. I have just written to Channel 4 as you suggested and congratulated them on producing such a fair, thoughtful and balanced programme. I also warned them that the atheist fundamentalists who inhabit this particular area of cyberspace were being encouraged to write in and complain.

It's amusing to watch how you fundamentalist atheists react whenever your faith is attacked. You really should let me write your posts for you. It's the usual comments - Straw men - AD hominem - Hitler was not an atheist - and my personal favourite 'Communism is not atheistic' (a bit like arguing Christianity is not theistic). And I also love 'atheism is not a dogmatic belief system'. Yeah like this website just oozes non dogmatism, rationalism and tolerance.

This programme did however prove me wrong about one thing. Maybe Channel 4 is a bit more balanced than I gave them credit for.

Have fun...."

Martin, you may want to send your responses to his site too. I dont think he wants his readers to see them. Or at least that is my interpretation of what he meant when he said he will reply to you on this site

Keep it up Dodgy Dave

Other Comments by BillySands

484. Comment #14243 by Paul Creber on December 21, 2006 at 3:55 pm

Hello David
I think the point made by Torbjörn Larsson (Post 782) in his probability theory paragraphs, which to be candid were a tad too cerebral for me too, can be rephrased as follows (please correct me if I am wrong, Torbjörn):
"A blindfolded golfer stands on a tee and announces his intention to score a hole in one. He succeeds and the crowd bursts into loud applause. Why? Because he announced his intention before striking the ball. Had he not announced his intention, and merely swung blindly at the ball, who would applaud when the ball landed on a particular blade of grass?
"At the Big Bang, no-one announced their intention to create human life on a planet with all the significance of a Saharan grain of sand. On the evidence before us, "fine tuning" is a preposterous description. Happenstance is a good one."
You may recognise the above from my post No 719. However, you may not, because at the time you appeared to overlook it. I say this because your only response to it was to repeat your original assertion about the wonder of it all, and then quote from the Bible. Perhaps, however, you simply didn't understand the simile, so here's a metaphor instead:
Your argument about the so-called fine tuning of the universe to support life is a bullet you have fired into a barn wall. Having fired the bullet, you then stroll over to the barn and paint a target in such a way that the bulls-eye falls precisely over the bullet hole.
Now do you get it?
Please don't respond by suggesting that I apparently know better than Fred Hoyle et alia. If you follow either the simile or the metaphor and disagree, please explain in your own words why I am wrong.

Other Comments by Paul Creber

485. Comment #14301 by David A Robertson on December 22, 2006 at 1:35 am

786. Comment #14056 by Ole

Sorry Ole I cannot reasonably be expected to discuss your Granny's version of God as an old man in the sky with a white beard.

787. Comment #14080 by MartinSGill on

"Dawkins does not disprove god and he doesn't set out to do so, maybe you should read the opening chapter again, you seem to have conviniently forgotten it."

I honestly think this is playing with words. If you saw Rod Liddle's programme you clearly see that Dawkins no more believes in God than he does in the tooth fairy. And not for one minute do I accept that he is anything other than 100% that the tooth fairy does not exists. The 'almost certainly' is just a rhetorical device.

"Assume for once, that humans are not superior to all other animals and you will quickly realise how silly your comments actually are."

I do not accept that human beings are the same as cockroaches and rats and I will not treat them as such.

"Since you cannot believe in numbers as abstract... does that mean you don't use money? "

No. It does mean that I will not limit reality to what humans can work out. My universe is not so man centred!
795. Comment #14109 by MartinSGill on December 21, 2006 at


"The problem you face is how do you justify that what you read in the bible is correct, and that those others read is wrong?"

Facts. Context. Meaning. Plus I don't always know and everything is not always black and white.

" Furthermore, how do you know the Jews, who insist that jesus wasn't anything special, aren't right? How do you know the hindus aren't right, or Islam?"
How do you know they aren't right?


796. Comment #14125 by Fedler on December 21, 2006 at 8:19 am

The only thing I would add to the earlier comments would be that it is not always the best idea to judge everything by personal experience and yes – many many religious people are hypocrites.
800. Comment #14136 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 21, 2006 at 9:00 am
>>Comment #13990 by Torbjörn Larsson <<

"What an awesome posting! I LOVE what I can learn from fellow Atheists!"

NLHB – could you let me know what you learnt from Torbjorn's post?

804. Comment #14220 by Torbjörn Larsson on December 21, 2006 at 2:09 pm
. "The design argument is the main argument for God", remember?"

No – it is one of the arguments.

"It is creationists that call life designed and take that as evidence for gods."

Again no and too simplistic. I would hardly call Antony Flew a creationist.

"Your hangup on evolution may be because you have listened too much on creationist descriptions. "

What hang up is this?

"science needs to be naturalistic."

Yes – which is why it is limited.

"Most will be found in wikipedia."

You will forgive me saying that I have an inherent bias against Wikpedia. I understand fully why Universites in this country ban students from citing Wikpedia in their essays. They prefer them to do real research. In terms of cosmology I guess the most helpful book I have found is the Goldilocks enigma. However I am more than happy to admit I am not a cosmologist or scientist. That perhaps explains why I could not understand most of your post. I do however find it significant that the majority of cosmologists are also theists or at least deists.

"Insisting that religion is special and should be withhold from criticism is not good for either religion or secular society."

Of course I agree with you. And that is what I have been saying all along.


"Why isn't faith enough as a base for a persons religion?"
It depends how you define faith. But faith without evidence is just stupid.


806. Comment #14243 by Paul Creber on December 21, 2006 at 3:55 pm

"Your argument about the so-called fine tuning of the universe to support life is a bullet you have fired into a barn wall. Having fired the bullet, you then stroll over to the barn and paint a target in such a way that the bulls-eye falls precisely over the bullet hole.
Now do you get it?"

Nope.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

486. Comment #14307 by Joadist on December 22, 2006 at 1:56 am

Paul Creber,

You fail to understand God's universe. In that universe, time runs backwards.

It is a universe where roads were created after the car so that the car would have a place to be driven.

It is a necessary condition when the simple derives from the complex.

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487. Comment #14309 by jefferson on December 22, 2006 at 2:06 am

David, I have a problem with God.

How did he create matter? He certainly didn't just use magic. If he really created matter, there should be a scientific explanation to how he did it.

How did he form? Creationists like to say "you can't get something from nothing." Well, God IS something. How did he come from nothing?

Using the "God created the universe" explanation reminds me of the explanation that Earth sits on a turtle's back. What is that turtle standing on? Oh no, it's turtles all the way down! So who created God? Oh no, it's Gods all the way back!

Other Comments by jefferson

488. Comment #14313 by Ole on December 22, 2006 at 2:25 am

 avatarDavid said:
Sorry Ole I cannot reasonably be expected to discuss your Granny's version of God as an old man in the sky with a white beard.

Of course not. I was only trying be a bit personal - it was only one example of faith that I have met.

Probably among the people in your church you can find that (childish version) as well?

I'm trying to understand your position. I don't find it coherent what you say. You seem to believe both in a very abstract god (close to Einstein and Spinoza) and a personal one (incarnated through Jesus).

As I've told you several times, I admire your effort here. I also understand that you are alone in one position and the rest is opposing you. It is easy to feel that we are trying to frame you.

Rest asure I'm not! Understanding thing is much more interesting.

It is rather seldom (at least for me) to meet people who really can defend their belief. Most christians I talk to, seem to shy away from questions about god. I often get the impression that they are lazy or only believe in belief.

Apropos "belief in belief". Have you read Dennett's book "Breaking the Spell"?

In the chapter "Belief in Belief", he talks about the lonly mountain climber hanging in a rope crying for help:
"Hallooo, hallooo! Can anybody help me?"
- a mighty voice suddenly replies:
"Yes, my son, I can help you. Take your knife and cut the rope!".
The climber takes out his knife, and then he stops and thinks and thinks.
The then cries out:
"Can anybody else help me?"

I'm sure there are many people like that, who only believe in belief. I also think you are not one of them. But, perhaps from time to time, you are at least doubting the belief in god?

To you, David, and the rest in this discussion:

God Jul!

..as we say over here in Norway (see my explanation of "Jul" over in the RD Forum)

Ole

Other Comments by Ole

489. Comment #14316 by BillySands on December 22, 2006 at 2:34 am

 avatar"What an awesome posting! I LOVE what I can learn from fellow Atheists!"

NLHB – could you let me know what you learnt from Torbjorn's post?"

That David doesnt understand what he is argueing about?

Other Comments by BillySands

490. Comment #14318 by Paul Creber on December 22, 2006 at 2:40 am

PC: "Your argument about the so-called fine tuning of the universe to support life is a bullet you have fired into a barn wall. Having fired the bullet, you then stroll over to the barn and paint a target in such a way that the bulls-eye falls precisely over the bullet hole.
Now do you get it?"

DR: "Nope."

David,
Would you be interested in making the effort to understand the above analogy?

Other Comments by Paul Creber

491. Comment #14328 by MartinSGill on December 22, 2006 at 3:38 am

 avatar
You will forgive me saying that I have an inherent bias against Wikpedia. I understand fully why Universites in this country ban students from citing Wikpedia in their essays. They prefer them to do real research. In terms of cosmology I guess the most helpful book I have found is the Goldilocks enigma. However I am more than happy to admit I am not a cosmologist or scientist. That perhaps explains why I could not understand most of your post. I do however find it significant that the majority of cosmologists are also theists or at least deists.


You seem rather quick to think everything comes form wikipedia. What Torb told you was that you should look up the REFERENCES cited in wikipedia, not the article itself.

Enough studies have been done to try and show the accuracy of wikipedia and enough have concluded that it's not any worse than any other source. Banning wikipedia as a source is as wrong as banning the Encylopaedia Britannica as a source. I personally don't take everything in Wikipedia on trust. Since i've actually spotted errors in the encylopeadia brittanica myself, I don't take everything in that work on faith either.

The university of edinborough, I suspect, would not allow the use of the bible as a source for physiscs, maths, chemistry or biology, so maybe we should ban you from using it.

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492. Comment #14360 by BillySands on December 22, 2006 at 6:16 am

 avatarMartin,

I'm glad my countries university dont use the bible as a text book, but Liberty University does.
As an interesting aside, one of my friends who was studying divinity at Glasgow said they have a high drop out rate, because people start to reject the teaching ofthe bible. There is some hope yet- oh an he dropped out too.

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493. Comment #14368 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 22, 2006 at 6:41 am

>>Comment #14301 by David A Robertson<<

>>could you let me know what you learnt from Torbjorn's post?<<

Nope. Because you don't want to learn, you just want to preach about the Lord-ah.

>>Comment #14316 by BillySands<<

>>That David doesnt understand what he is arguing about?<<

Billy has answered for me. You'd have us believe that the Lord-ah, would condmen us all, despite us Atheists being exactly as we were 'created' by your Lord-ah.

You'll never understand why Atheists exist. Maybe it is because we've decided we are above the FILTH that is the Bible?

According to the website Link Billy S so graciously provided, your Lord-ah killed around 2.3 million people in the Bible. Whereas the 'evil' one - Satan - only managed 10!

Hmmm. Maybe we should be giving Satan our full support? He seems more of a Humanist than God and Hell seems more interesting than rolling around on a cloud proclaiming about how wonderful we all are.

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494. Comment #14404 by BillySands on December 22, 2006 at 9:48 am

 avatarNLHBs,
Perhaps we should do something to improve Satan's -or to give him his ancient Egyptian name-Set-An's public immage and celebrate his un birthday on the 25th. Afterall, he never gets any party invites

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495. Comment #14411 by Homo economicus on December 22, 2006 at 10:30 am

 avatarYes this is hardly a critical analysis of the book, but a revelation of a mind troubled that someone disagrees with him. I read Dawkins, quote him, but a disciple? No offense, I'd buy him a drink but not wash his feet or die in his name.

Ideas are powerful - even if they are right or wrong. This letter was a "you're wrong, I know I am right but not saying why". If we use sixth form arguments perhaps he could tell me the more cognitive arguments we should be using as atheists for our position (or is he just insulting 6th formers?).

And if they are wrong please say why you think so. Don't just keep on saying your wrong your wrong oh more fool you. Not very enlightening.

Dawkins should be knighted for services to science. He has not been yet (and the idea of Dawkins to the rescue on a noble stead did make me laugh).

A god may have caused the universe as a first cause argument - but how do you prove which of the ones that humans have worshiped is it? With eyes open I do not feel that life and the universe needs a creater to be explained, far less one worthy of worship. Explain please a loving God creating creatures which can only survive through pain and suffering on others?

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496. Comment #14469 by Paul Creber on December 22, 2006 at 3:04 pm

Torbjörn Larsson wrote (807): "That is it, it is a variant of the Texas sharpshooter fallacy! ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Texas_sharpshooter_fallacy ) I completely forgot about this fallacy, probably because it was only recently I learned about the connection. It is an obvious mistake in probability, so obvious that it is apparently put as a logical fallacy too."

Thanks for echoing my thoughts, Torbjörn. It is indeed an obvious logical fallacy, though apparently not obvious to our friend David. However, as we both know, what is apparent is not always the reality.

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497. Comment #14515 by David A Robertson on December 23, 2006 at 12:07 am

810. Comment #14309 by jefferson on December 22, 2006 at 2:06 am
"David, I have a problem with God.

How did he create matter? He certainly didn't just use magic. If he really created matter, there should be a scientific explanation to how he did it."

If you mean that there is a scientific explanation of how God created matter then you are in theory right. If you mean that unless we can understand and test it then God cannot have done it – then you are wrong. Why should the existence of anything be dependent on our tiny minds being able to grasp it?

"How did he form? Creationists like to say "you can't get something from nothing." Well, God IS something. How did he come from nothing?"

If creationists argue that way then they are wrong. Because the Bible teaches that God created ex nihilo. From nothing. You are falling into the same simplistic trap as Dawkins – you are arguing for a created God. That's kind of the point – God is uncreated. It boils down to a choice between an uncreated personal God or uncreated matter.

"Using the "God created the universe" explanation reminds me of the explanation that Earth sits on a turtle's back. What is that turtle standing on? Oh no, it's turtles all the way down! So who created God? Oh no, it's Gods all the way back! "

Again missing the point. But it's a useful analogy for atheistic materialists. Where did the matter come from for the Big Bang? Oh it was there. It's matter all the way back…..

811. Comment #14313 by Ole on December 22, 2006 at 2:25 am
David said:
Sorry Ole I cannot reasonably be expected to discuss your Granny's version of God as an old man in the sky with a white beard.

"Of course not. I was only trying be a bit personal - it was only one example of faith that I have met.
Probably among the people in your church you can find that (childish version) as well?"

Not at all. I have never met anyone who thinks that God is a man with a white beard in the sky.

"I'm trying to understand your position. I don't find it coherent what you say. You seem to believe both in a very abstract god (close to Einstein and Spinoza) and a personal one (incarnated through Jesus)."

I believe in a personal God. But I do not think I have the right to either limit him or to claim that I understand him. However I do trust him – on the basis of the evidence he has provided.

"It is rather seldom (at least for me) to meet people who really can defend their belief. Most christians I talk to, seem to shy away from questions about god. I often get the impression that they are lazy or only believe in belief."

I agree.

" But, perhaps from time to time, you are at least doubting the belief in god?"

Yes.


813. Comment #14318 by Paul Creber on December 22, 2006 at 2:40 am

"Would you be interested in making the effort to understand the above analogy?"

Could you please explain it to me and the point you are trying to make?
814. Comment #14328 by MartinSGill on December 22, 2006 at 3:38 am

"The university of edinborough, I suspect, would not allow the use of the bible as a source for physiscs, maths, chemistry or biology, so maybe we should ban you from using it. "

Of course it should not be used as a scientific text book. It was not written as such.

816. Comment #14368 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 22, 2006 at 6:41 am

">>could you let me know what you learnt from Torbjorn's post?<<

Nope. Because you don't want to learn, you just want to preach about the Lord-ah."

So you didn't understand it either! That's what I thought…


818. Comment #14411 by Homo economicus on December 22, 2006 at 10:30 am

"Yes this is hardly a critical analysis of the book, but a revelation of a mind troubled that someone disagrees with him."

Welcome to another amateur psychologist…

"And if they are wrong please say why you think so. Don't just keep on saying your wrong your wrong oh more fool you. Not very enlightening"

Its hard to enlighten people who don't or won't read. I assume you have not read the rest of my letters. (see www.freechurch.org) where I say why I think Dawkins is wrong.

" Explain please a loving God creating creatures which can only survive through pain and suffering on others? "

Is that the only way we can survive? Are you really saying that my having a bacon sandwich this morning is an argument against the existence of God? Has atheist apologetics really come down to this?

820. Comment #14476 by Torbjörn Larsson on December 22, 2006 at 3:26 pm


"As a scientist Dawkins knows that any theory is provisional and may be replaced by a better one. Why should he hold any idea to be firmer? That would be like... religion."

Precisely. Which is why its use as a rhetorical device is actually dishonest.

"But that wasn't the point. The point was that Dawkins or anyone else is not 'proving' that there is no god by evolution. What the biological theory of evolution means in the domain that religion tries to claim is that the religious design argument is wrong. That isn't the fault of biology, that is the error of religion."

It is precisely the point. Religion may be wrong in the area of design as regards biology that does not de facto mean it is wrong in seeing design in the universe. Dawkins extrapolates backwards from the theory of biological evolution to making it a universal theory which disproves God.


"If you want to argue why religion should be withheld from analysis and criticism you should do so. But remember that special pleading won't be the answer."

I have never disagreed with that.

"You insist on claiming that evolution is a problem for religion because it disembowel creationists and their design argument. This hangup of yours is trivially wrong from both ends"

I'm sorry it's a hnagup that doesn't exist. I have no problem with the idea that God used evolution to create. .

"And there are many religious scientists. Most of them has based their religion on faith and thus their belief doesn't conflict with their knowledge. (It isn't rational, since it is incoherent. But that is another story.)"

That is patronizing and false. You have the arrogance to assume that you definition of faith (belief without evidence) is the one that we hold to.

"But now you have to answer my second question. Doesn't that suggest that faith is not really an accepted part of religion? Does this mean that you think religious people who base their beliefs on revelation are misguided and stupid?"

No. It means that your definition of faith is wrong. And why do you think revelation is false? Revelation is part of the evidence that God gives. In fact without revelation we would not know him. Indeed I question whether we could know anything without revelation.

All – I will be on holiday for Christmas and would like to wish you all the peace, love and revelation of Jesus Christ. He is the Light of the World who came to dispel the darkness. I hope you will all be enlightened!

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498. Comment #14524 by