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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

Comments 551 - 580 of 580 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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551. Comment #19490 by scottishgeologist on January 27, 2007 at 3:29 pm

 avatarI think that the guy whocalls himself stpetes is actually the guy who calls himself Deuan on the free church web site www.fcosonline.org. He has referred to it as St Petes before.

By refering to his church (St Peters) as "st petes" does this mean that he also refers to the trinity in such equaly cavileir terms "Big Man, Junior and Spook"

Perhaps we shoulf be told... But then again, who gives a fuck....

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

552. Comment #19496 by scottishgeologist on January 27, 2007 at 3:51 pm

 avatarHey stpetes

"The Bible liberates rather than condemns women"

What a crock of shit.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35: "...women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the Law says, If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church." (NIV)

Ephesians 5:22-24: "Wives, submit to your husbands as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife...wives should submit to their husbands in everything." (NIV)

1 Timothy 2:11-15:"A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent..." (NIV)

Yeah, really liberating that pile of shit is, isnt it? Care to comment, loser?

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

553. Comment #19500 by Fedler on January 27, 2007 at 4:45 pm

 avatar"I think that the guy whocalls himself stpetes is actually the guy who calls himself Deuan on the free church web site."

Thanks for the clarity, scottishgeologist, although I haven't seen anyone by that name either. I'll keep my eye open for both 'handles'.

Other Comments by Fedler

554. Comment #19618 by stpetes on January 28, 2007 at 11:46 pm

Fedler,

st petes is myself (David Robertson) - I logged in under another name because I was banned. I do not like doing this and will not continue to comment on this site because of the ban, but I did so in order to answer those who made constructive comments on this particular thread.

Scottishgeologist - for the reason given above I cannot enter into a debate with you here. And to be honest, until you mature and learn to communicate without swearing or being offensive, there would appear to be little point in arguing with you anyway. I am sure you will be free to yell, shout and swear on this site as much as you want. If you want real discussion I would suggest you go elsewhere.

Other Comments by stpetes

555. Comment #19622 by scottishgeologist on January 29, 2007 at 12:44 am

 avatarOK David, 2 apologies. One - for thinking that stpetes was someone else. Actually, the fact that the minister refers to "Pete" for Peter is quite remarkable. Looks like the "spiritual declension" I have read of is going full tilt. Keep going, you'll be an atheist yet....

Apology two for using bad language. Actually the apology is to other board users mainly. For a simple reason. It allows people like you to say "bad language, I'm not arguing any more. End of story." And that gets you neatly off the hook.

And one little point. I wasnt shouting (as you claimed). Do you see any capitals? THIS IS SHOUTING. SO IS THIS. this isnt....

So , now that that is all cleared up, any thoughts on those 3 verses that I quoted? I know for a FACT that there are men in a lot of these "bible believing" churches who dont "allow" their women to work.

The bible has been used for generations to suppress women, justify slavery, to physically abuse children and to oppress homosexuals.

Of course, I do appreciate that there are some people in some churches who take a more enlightened view and dont submit to this "innerant word of God" position. John Shelby Spong's book, "The Sins of Scripture" make this clear. Richard Holloway is quite thought provoking as well in this department.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

556. Comment #20620 by BillySands on February 5, 2007 at 6:01 am

 avatarWot, no troll?
He must have got his fingers rapped by his own church for being abusive and offensive.
PS don't reply if you are the antichrist and head over heels in love with Satan and his little demons

Other Comments by BillySands

557. Comment #20644 by stpetes on February 5, 2007 at 11:17 am

Scottish Geologist -

Sorry for causing you offence. I did not realise that atheists could be so concerned about language - St Petes is what the Church is known as amongst the 'trendier' church goers in Dundee. And you will be disappointed to learn that there are quite a lot of them!

Yes - there are men who abuse women by taking bible verses out of context and using them as they want. In so doing they abuse the Bible as well. The fact still remains that in a largely patriarhcal culture the early Christian church liberated women and enabled them to be full members and key leaders within (the fact that certain roles were left for men should no more demean women than the fact that today there are certain jobs that a woman is better equipped to do).

The wider point is that the Bible liberates, wheras those who reject the Makers Instructions, whatever their good intentions, always end up creating an oppressive society.

Other Comments by stpetes

558. Comment #20961 by BillySands on February 7, 2007 at 6:01 am

 avatarDave,
God and women
He does not have a problem with kidnapping women, nor with making them gifts to be used as sex slaves (Jud. 21:11-14). In fact, the god of the bible doesn't think too much of women at the best of times. These following attitudes make me sick! A rapist must marry his victim. Forcing someone to live with their abuser is just about the worst thing you can make them do. Even some Christians realize and disagree with their god on this! Eve also gets all the blame for the original sin (1Tim. 2:12-14), and women are the property of men and were created for men, because we are superior. They must be silent in church and never hold authority over men, or even teach a man (1Cor. 11:8-9, 14:34-35, Eph. 5:21, Col. 3:18, 1Tim.2:11-14). All however is not lost, as a woman can be saved through childbirth (1Tim. 2:15). The only problem is that God would rather men didn't get married (1Cor. 7:8), and for those lucky enough to get a man, child birth will be incredibly painful (Gen.3:16). Yep, God hates women!
GET REAL DUDE

Other Comments by BillySands

559. Comment #20973 by scottishgeologist on February 7, 2007 at 6:34 am

 avatarBilly, of course there is that other fine piece of edifying prose from the "inerrant, inspired infallible" "word" of "the Lord"

Here it is for those that arent familiar with this portrayal of pure evil:

Judges 19:22-29 (New International Version)

22 While they were enjoying themselves, some of the wicked men of the city surrounded the house. Pounding on the door, they shouted to the old man who owned the house, "Bring out the man who came to your house so we can have sex with him."

23 The owner of the house went outside and said to them, "No, my friends, don't be so vile. Since this man is my guest, don't do this disgraceful thing. 24 Look, here is my virgin daughter, and his concubine. I will bring them out to you now, and you can use them and do to them whatever you wish. But to this man, don't do such a disgraceful thing."

25 But the men would not listen to him. So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go. 26 At daybreak the woman went back to the house where her master was staying, fell down at the door and lay there until daylight.

27 When her master got up in the morning and opened the door of the house and stepped out to continue on his way, there lay his concubine, fallen in the doorway of the house, with her hands on the threshold. 28 He said to her, "Get up; let's go." But there was no answer. Then the man put her on his donkey and set out for home.

29 When he reached home, he took a knife and cut up his concubine, limb by limb, into twelve parts and sent them into all the areas of Israel


Bet you didnt get that in Sunday School did you? Bet you didnt act out that little play did you? No innocent childish drawings of THAT on the walls of the classroom eh?

Even if this is simply a narrative of an evil act that took place, the fact that a story of such evil is considered canonical and included in the Bible just shows how twisted these holy books of hate actually are.

The "offering" of the concubine (Note the way that women are "liberated" in this story) is actually very similar to the story of Sodom and Lots daughters being offered - maybe the two stories are intertwined, cross-translated, mixed up whatever - you tend to get that with old fairy tales....

Whatever, If you made a film of even a small part of the OT, you'd probably end up in jail. The worst porn of today doesnt even come close...

Hey, you dont even find this sort of thing on Ogrish.com...

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

560. Comment #20977 by BillySands on February 7, 2007 at 7:22 am

 avatarToo true Scottish Geologist.

Srange they never mentioned god accepting the sacrifice of Jepthath's daughter either (Jud. 11:29-40)

I never even got taught about the hilarious bear mauling of children in 2kings : 23And he went up from thence unto Bethel: and as he was going up by the way, there came forth little children out of the city, and mocked him, and said unto him, Go up, thou bald head; go up, thou bald head.
24 And he turned back, and looked on them, and cursed them in the name of the LORD. And there came forth two she bears out of the wood, and tare forty and two children of them.

All for callind Elisha a slap head. Good job the childern were not lesbeans, they would really have been in for it.

Hey David, did you like my little piece in the scottish metro on monday, demostrating that the bible is a book of disgusting moral values?

Other Comments by BillySands

561. Comment #22820 by Ewan D on February 23, 2007 at 9:10 am

Any chance of posting it here Billy?

Other Comments by Ewan D

562. Comment #22821 by BillySands on February 23, 2007 at 10:57 am

 avatarHi Ewan,
It was really just a letter, but they published 3 of them over a week, and it provoked disussion. Some muppet said that the country needed to get back to biblical moral teachings, and that would cut down teenage pregnancies etc. I just had to point out that Mary was a pregnant unmarried teenager and that the bible was full of disgusting moral values like stoneing homosexuals, promoting slavery and intolerance,and that the punishment for rapists was that they had to marry their victims. I also pointed out that morality is something innate and the result of natural selection. I also pointed out that the sumerians and confusious came up with decent moral values long before the bible. I even got a picture of Darwin published on his birthday and thanked him for destroying ignorant ceationist mythology and escaping his own indoctrination (just to fan the flames).
It was nice to see many outher atheists write in. A few christians wrote in to say bow before the cross. That made me laugh

Other Comments by BillySands

563. Comment #22904 by Ewan D on February 24, 2007 at 5:10 am

Sounds lively! Thanks for the taste!

Other Comments by Ewan D

564. Comment #24385 by dirtpiggy on March 6, 2007 at 10:14 am

 avatarEvery word reeks of pettiness. The only reason that I can see why people like David Robertson throw words like 'evangelical', 'faith', 'preach' and 'fundamentalism' at atheists, is because those words form a major part of religion and religious people know, deep down, that there's something wrong with the concepts described by these words. They are trying to say "but you are just as bad as I".

People like David Robertson, over-sensitive, neuroticly defensive Christians, clearly have a severely polarized view of the world ("strong atheism must be fundamentalist atheism, we have no room for detailed explanations!") and their lack of confidence and excess of bile is telling of an inner conflict they might themselves not be aware of.

Other Comments by dirtpiggy

565. Comment #24388 by BillySands on March 6, 2007 at 10:31 am

 avatarDirtpiggy,
People like Robertson call anyone who does not accept their authority fundamentalists. They often label passion about knowing the truth as closed minded fanaticism. Yet, the more they rant and the more they fail to engage in reasoned debate, the more they take on the accusations they falsely hurl at atheists.

Other Comments by BillySands

566. Comment #24403 by dirtpiggy on March 6, 2007 at 12:33 pm

 avatarThe only reason that I can see why David Robertson applies words like 'evangelical', 'faith', 'preach' and 'fundamentalism' to Dawkins, is that he knows, deep down, that there's something wrong with the concepts described by these words. He's trying to say "but you are just as bad as I".

People like David Robertson, over-sensitive, neuroticly defensive Christians, clearly have a severely polarized view of the world ("strong atheism must be fundamentalist atheism, we have no room for detailed explanations!") and their lack of confidence and excess of bile is telling of an inner conflict they might themselves not be aware of.

Other Comments by dirtpiggy

567. Comment #36131 by BillySands on April 30, 2007 at 8:54 am

 avatar
I really do hope that people will actually get to meet Jesus Christ - in reality. And wouldn't it be great if RD became a Christian? He wouldn't be the first atheist to 'see the light' and I'm sure he won't be the last!


I am not even the first of many who have realised that christianity is a delusion. And I wont be the last!

Other Comments by BillySands

568. Comment #51551 by Frank Hodson on June 23, 2007 at 11:09 am

 avatarThat's a lot of responses! Alas, I do not have the time to read them all.

But what I will say, is this; I would be willing to bet that Dr. Richard Dawkins, as an intelligent and experienced evolutionary biologist, would agree that David Robertson has written an articulated and reasoned letter of response. Despite his atheism, if Dr. Dawkins is a man who sincerely does search for truth, then he is indeed on the path to God, whether he himself chooses to believe it or not.

"Faith, superstition, and religious nonsense have been failing to bring peace on earth for at least fifty centuries. It's a bit unfair to demand that science do it in one - especially considering that bringing peace on earth isn't even the goal of science." - By Some Dude on November 10, 2006 at 1:56 pm (Page 1 on the reply to this thread)

When has Christianity ever promised to bring a Utopian society or world? Since Christianity states that we are all sinners, and therefore not perfect, then it realistically and logically accepts that there will always be disputes due to differences of opinion, and challenges against evil and tyranny that more often than not, is brought about by deceit and treachery for one's own personal selfish gain. Just like religion, science has been abused by individuals and organised groups to manipulate people. A prime example of this is the recent uncompromising and unfounded fanaticism of man made global warming, supposedly backed by irrefutable scientific evidence. But did anyone see Channel 4 'Great Global Warming Swindle' that cleverly, featuring qualified scientists, argued against the polemic? Besides, is it not the Devil's greatest trick to deceive us into believing that he does not exist?

I will also add, that for those of you who unquestionably agree with Dr. Dawkins in that religion and God are allegedly the sole cause of all evil, then consider this; the liberties that we currently have in England, but are being fast eroded and encroached on by an arrogant and ominous state elite, stem from the foundations of Judao-Christian beliefs and principles. And so it would appear that many people easily forget that science does not hold the key to all life's problems and challenges.

Other Comments by Frank Hodson

569. Comment #51557 by The Wee Flea on June 23, 2007 at 11:45 am

Frank,

Thanks. It's a long time since I visited this thread. In actual fact the vehemence of the responses encouraged to contineu with a series of letters to Dr Dawkins - which has now been publised as 'The Dawkins Letters - challenging Atheist myths'.

David

Other Comments by The Wee Flea

570. Comment #51574 by Frank Hodson on June 23, 2007 at 12:37 pm

 avatarHi David. I'd heard about your response to Dr. Dawkins on this website via a synopsis of your book on a Christian website. I then proceeded to investigate this site, and more to the point, your post. Being that I am impressed and intrigued by what you have written, I intend to purchase your book!

Thanks,
Frank.

Other Comments by Frank Hodson

571. Comment #51579 by BillySands on June 23, 2007 at 1:41 pm

 avatarFrank, science is about understanding and finding the truth, not about bringing peace - what a straw man. Jared exposes mant fallacies of robertson on page 1, if you cant see that, then there is no point in further engagement - especially is you have already decided that truth will lead to god - it seems you are not clear thinking enough to realise that you could be wrong. What however is true is that religion has been responsible for may crimes though, but that is not an arguement for the exstence of god, although some xians commit the fallacy of saying some folk do good things through their faith is evidence for its existance - it appears their fallacious comments are double standards. The bible and David condone homophobia, are you aying that this is a good thing?
BTW if we are all sinners (i naturally disagree*) and because of this, the world cant be perfect, how do you think it would be any different in heaven.
I don't feel from your post that you are open to debate - David isn't, so dont be disappointed if I dont reply


*We do good and bad things, but I dont believe in the concept of sin the way you do, and certainly dont think i have done anything that would deserve endless torment and suffering in hell - that concept is a form of abuse

Other Comments by BillySands

572. Comment #51590 by Frank Hodson on June 23, 2007 at 3:20 pm

 avatar"Frank, science is about understanding and finding the truth, not about bringing peace" - BillySands.

I never said that science was about "bringing peace". If you think I've implied this, feel free to quote me. Either do that, or concede that you have misunderstood what I have written.

"but I dont believe in the concept of sin the way you do, and certainly dont think i have done anything that would deserve endless torment and suffering in hell" - BillySands.

The Christian idiom "We are all sinners", to my mind, does not suggest that we are all destined for a state of posthumous eternity in hell, and therefore we have to beg for forgiveness prior to our death to avoid a life with Beelzebub. It merely implies that we all have our faults, and that no individual is infallible. As Winston Churchill said "All men make mistakes, but only wise men learn from their mistakes." I believe Einstein said something similar. Incidentally, if memory serves me well, I recall that Jesus despised the Pharisees and Scribes because when they prayed to God, they thanked him for "not being like other people". Jesus said that God looks kindly upon the humble, not the self-righteous.

"BTW if we are all sinners (i naturally disagree*) and because of this, the world cant be perfect, how do you think it would be any different in heaven." - BillySands.

I cannot be certain if there is a heaven, or a hell. Just as I cannot be certain that a God actually exists. There is doubt in my religious beliefs, for I am not, nor is any other person, all knowing. If there is a heaven, then I'll find out when I die. It is a little tough to speculate on a place you have never been, or seen. But, human history has shown itself to have perpetual problems on earth. From that alone, I would surmise that human future will continue in a similar fashion.

"I don't feel from your post that you are open to debate - David isn't, so dont be disappointed if I dont reply" - BillySands.

Why would I be disappointed? I wasn't expecting this reply from you, as my initial post wasn't addressed to you.

And no offense, but your post is a little rich coming from someone that has accused other people of ranting. But I suppose you would consider your post to be of "reasoned debate".

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573. Comment #51602 by BillySands on June 23, 2007 at 5:14 pm

 avatar
I never said that science was about "bringing peace


vs

And so it would appear that many people easily forget that science does not hold the key to all life's problems and challenges.


I was meerly stating that is not the aim os science. To imply that some believe it so is a misrepresentation that could be considered an unaccepted enthymeme.

Hell is where xian teaching - particularly David's brand tells us that those who do not love jesus will end up. Personally I find this a distateful doctrine and if god were real, I would not consider him a just god. I certainly agree that we all make mistakes, but i don't see a need for god to be moral - i particularly find the ot laws disgustingly immoral - you know, the ones that jesus has not come to abolish and the ones paul thinks are perfect.

I cannot be certain if there is a heaven, or a hell.
Now, that's better than this comment
if Dr. Dawkins is a man who sincerely does search for truth, then he is indeed on the path to God,

I agree that I cannot be certain that there is not a god. I see no evidence for one, and plenty of evidence why your god is not real. I tried to engage david in discussion on so called messianic prophecy, historical accuracy and morality here and elsewhere - he was evasive, and abusive, hardly what I would call reasoned or loving

It is a little tough to speculate on a place you have never been, or seen.

What about a god you have never seen?

But, human history has shown itself to have perpetual problems on earth. From that alone, I would surmise that human future will continue in a similar fashion.

I agree, but religion does help people to hate and kill - look at what god commands for Jericho (although archaeological studies suggest this was made up - apparently jericho had no wall at the time and Ai had already been deserted)

something i noticed earlier
When has Christianity ever promised to bring a Utopian society or world?
I suppose that depends on how you read these verses that say god will bring peace to earth: Is. 2:2-4, Mic. 4:1-4, Ezek. 39:9 and 12. (somehow, i dont think it will happen)

And no offense, but your post is a little rich coming from someone that has accused other people of ranting. But I suppose you would consider your post to be of "reasoned debate".
There is so much wrong with that statement that i feel I need to educate you. 1. where do I accuse you of ranting?
2. if i had, how does that affect the validity of any ponts I make? (te quoque fallacy)
3. Ad hominem - doesn't address any points that you may feel wrong
4. selective generalisation of the number of posts I made here - like I said, I tried reason on David, but he just likes to dismiss and insult.

No offense, but I dont see this being productive, so you can have the last word

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574. Comment #51612 by Frank Hodson on June 23, 2007 at 6:26 pm

 avatar"I never said that science was about "bringing peace"


vs


And so it would appear that many people easily forget that science does not hold the key to all life's problems and challenges." - Frank Hodson.

I think you know that to be an extremely tenuous link, and a desperate attempt to put words into my mouth. Maybe you would care to enlighten me on how stating that "science does not hold the key to all life's problems and challenges" is synoymous with "bringing peace"? Straw man, indeed.

"It is a little tough to speculate on a place you have never been, or seen." - Frank Hodson.


Response; "What about a god you have never seen?" - BillySands.

Did I not previously state that I am not "certain that a god exists"? If I had visible evidence, then it would not be an act of faith on my part.

"When has Christianity ever promised to bring a Utopian society or world?" - Frank Hodson

Response; "I suppose that depends on how you read these verses that say god will bring peace to earth." - BillySands.

Please use semantics correctly. How is "peace" synonymous with "utopia"? A peaceful society can be one maintained by law and order. However, that doesn't necessarily infer that there will no problems or "disputes due to differences of opinion" as I stated. A Utopia is an "imagined perfect place or state of things". If you don't believe me, check a thesaurus.

"where do I accuse you of ranting?"

If you reread my post, I said "other people" of ranting. I just found it amusingly paradoxical that you accuse others of ranting, then proceed to criticize my own post by the using the irrelevant introduction of "homophobia" and "heaven", presumably to elevate your opinon above my own. If you check my original post, I mention nothing of heaven, or homosexual activities. Sorry, but you should try to debate points head on.

Other Comments by Frank Hodson

575. Comment #51670 by scottishgeologist on June 24, 2007 at 3:31 am

 avatarFrank Hodsons point "If I had visible evidence, then it would not be an act of faith on my part." is to me, what this whole debate is about. Once you start "provong " the existence of god, it is no longer a matter of faith, but of reason.

Religion is founded on the supernatural, which by its very nature CANNOT be proven empirically. The moment that you do find empirical, repeatable, testable evidence for something supernatural, it is ipso facto, no longer "supernatural"

Atheist and believers are essentailly working within two different frames of reference.

There are onl one or two places of intersection between the so called supernatural and the natural and that is where believers claim that prayer can make a difference. Prayer may make a differnece to the believer in that it gives them a cosy, snug feeling. But it makes no difference whatsoever to real life events, above and beyond whta you would statistically expect. It is a total waste of time. But still the delusion sticks.

I mentioned it once before. People are praying in loads of churches for that child that went missing in Portugal. Why doesnt God tell someone - you know - a quick word to a "godly" preacher during a prayer session - a simple address or phone number would do. Instead what do we have? Silence. Zilch. Yep, the power of prayer - stunning isnt it?

Religion is for losers.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

576. Comment #51682 by Frank Hodson on June 24, 2007 at 4:23 am

 avatarThanks for elaborating on my point of faith.

However was "Religion is for losers" necessary? If I had come on here and point blankly stated that "Atheism is for losers" then I surmise that I would most likely have been heavily criticized. My intitial post, opinionated but affable, received unfair and unsupported denouncements that I am not "open to debate" and "not clear thinking enough to realise that you could be wrong".

Yet, since atheist-secularism is now commonly accepted by many as the only true system of belief, it therefore would appear justified in acting belligerently towards any converse attitudes to that belief. Remember that in draconian times, denying the existence of God was a punishable offense of blasphemy. It is just as plausable for a culture to evolve whereby any proclaimation of the existence of God will become that very same heresy. Two extremes, at the opposite end of the spectrum. Just like Facism and Communism.

Prayers are not meant to perform miracles. If it was that simple, then maybe I should have had a chin-wag with God on slipping me the answers to my Forensic Science degree tests via the medium of prayer. Those people pray in the hope that the abductor will find it in his/her heart to return the child unharmed. They pray to God to look upon the abductor/s compassionate side, in the hope of mercy for the unfortunate victim. Okay, so the ritual of prayer does not guarantee results. However, I do not see the harm in prayer, and why you would feel the urge to belittle it out of frivolity.

Other Comments by Frank Hodson

577. Comment #51694 by Donald on June 24, 2007 at 6:14 am

Frank Hodson wrote

Prayers are not meant to perform miracles.

Excuse me? Is this a new strand in religious thinking? The traditional reason for prayer is to ask "god" to intervene and cause something in the world to be different from what it otherwise would be. Given what we now know about physics and the rest of our scientific understanding of the universe, that means that every traditional prayer is asking for a miracle, be it big or small.

However, I do not see the harm in prayer,

Agreed, if it is personal prayer and does not displace practical, real-world, actions that might help to bring about the desired result.

In fact there is one kind of prayer that we might agree is beneficial. That is prayer to "god" to help the praying person overcome unwanted feelings. This might be prayer to get through difficult times, prayer to overcome feelings of hate that are damaging the person praying, prayer to become a better person within, or prayer to help the person praying to reach out to other people in love, friendship and mutual support.

That kind of prayer works whether or not the praying person believes in god or not, or which version of god is believed. It is akin to meditation, mantras and self-hypnosis into desirable behaviour patterns. It is perfectly possible to interpret that kind of prayer without belief in a supernatural creator, invisible sky father, or what-have-you. That kind of prayer can be highly beneficial and not harmful at all.

But it is dangerously close to apparently similar prayer that affirms that the praying person is superior to other people, because the praying person believes in the "true god" and others don't, and apparently similar prayers that assert the right of the praying person to oppose the interests of others because the praying person has access to "what god wants people to do" and the others don't.

As long as religion stays personal, no big problem. Unfortunately most religions come entwined with power hierarchies that seek to impose their beliefs and way of life on others. That leads to conflict and possibly to disaster for human civilisation.

For the most part atheists do not seek to impose their beliefs on others. They try to educate people about what science has really discovered (which is far more than most people actually understand), and try to point out the contradictions and absurdities in the ancient myths handed down from a time when most people did not know that the earth was round, that the earth went round the sun, before people understood that diseases were caused by viruses and bacteria instead of evil spirits, and before people understood the real causes of thunderstorms, earthquakes, floods, etc, instead of believing that they were caused by evil spirits or a wrathful "god".

The need has become urgent due to an appalling resurgence of the use of religious belief by western politicians and the even more appalling and deeply rooted religious domination of political power in Islamic countries.

Other Comments by Donald

578. Comment #51706 by Frank Hodson on June 24, 2007 at 8:20 am

 avatarSome interesting points, Donald.

"Excuse me? Is this a new strand in religious thinking? The traditional reason for prayer is to ask "god" to intervene and cause something in the world to be different from what it otherwise would be." - Donald.

Possibly a difference of interpretation? Would I be correct in thinking that your idea of God intervening is a physical one, rather than my interpretation of a spiritual one? Do you think that the victim's family are praying for God to physically intervene by, for example, zapping the abductor with a lighting bolt? Or to sock him in the jaw with his almighty fist, and then aid the little girl to safety by verbally disclosing the address of the perpetrator to the police, as scottishgeologist suggested? Because my idea of God's intervention is via the Holy Spirit, appealing to the possibility of the abductor having a "compassionate" side, or conscience. Okay, I concede. I suppose that that, in its own way, is asking for a miracle.

"For the most part atheists do not seek to impose their beliefs on others." - Donald.

That is very untrue. Communism/Marxism is inherently atheistic, and one of their main goals is to quash religion and spirituality by imposing their ideology on others, often using unethical methods. Did you know that Communism is seen by their followers as a political science? Where do you think political correctness derives from? It is Marxist propaganda designed to distort truths by deconstructing historical texts and inserting their own meaning. I do not wish to drag you into a political debate, so I will briefly mention that our state elite (that are majority secular and atheist) are extremely hostile to the principles and practices of Christianity. They are introducing legislation that prevents Christians the freedom to practice their beliefs. How is that not imposing beliefs on others?

Other Comments by Frank Hodson

579. Comment #51724 by Donald on June 24, 2007 at 10:51 am

Thanks for your calm and polite reply, Frank.

You write:

"For the most part atheists do not seek to impose their beliefs on others."- Donald.

That is very untrue. Communism/Marxism is inherently atheistic, and one of their main goals is to quash religion and spirituality by imposing their ideology on others, using unethical methods. Did you know that Communism is seen by their followers as a political science? Where do you think political correctness derives from? It is Marxist propaganda designed to distort truths by deconstructing historical texts, and inserting their own meaning. I do not wish to drag you into a political debate, so I will briefly mention that our state elite (that are majority secular and atheist) are extremely hostile to the principles and practices of Christianity. They are introducing legislation that prevents Christians the freedom to practice their beliefs. How is that not imposing upon religion?

I agree that a few ruthless and despotic regimes have imposed atheism and tried to prevent theism by force. But I don't see this as typical of atheists. Hitler, Stalin, Pol Pot, Kim Jong Ill, are usually paraded at this point. But throughout history there have been even more ruthless dictators and despotic regimes who imposed belief in god and ruled in the name of god, Popes from the inappropriately-named Innocent III onwards, Kings e.g. Henry XIII, Emperor Hirohito of WWII, etc, etc, and I haven't even mentioned the current middle east! I think ruthless and despotic dictators will use whatever belief systems are around at the time for their own ends, although I suspect it helps them if they can become personally deluded that god is on their side!

I don't regard the current crop of atheists as trying to impose beliefs. I regard it as a verbal battle for the best possible concepts (memes Dawkins might call them) that make sense of our world and guide humanity towards a better future.

Rather, the boot is on the other foot. For centuries, it has been religions that have had the upper hand, and imposed beliefs via blasphemy laws, death or excommunication for speaking out against religion, etc, etc. Now that atheists are speaking out against the theists instead of being silent, it feels to religious believers that the atheists are imposing, simply because the past imposition of religious beliefs has held sway for so long.

That said, beliefs and rights do conflict of course. If one group believe they have the right to go everywhere banging a large drum, and the rest believe they have a right to peace and quiet, then there will be a quarrel which will not end until one side wins.

So, if the "principles and practices of Christianity" you referred to, are impinging on others (e.g. preventing medical research, preventing medical treatment, removing civil rights from minorities, seeking privilege, seeking disproportionate representation in government, etc, etc) then you can expect a quarrel.

You say "They [atheists] are introducing legislation that prevents Christians the freedom to practice their beliefs." What specific legislation did you have in mind?

Other Comments by Donald

580. Comment #95374 by rwillcox on December 8, 2007 at 7:32 am

'nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?'

Who is this guy kidding? Like religious groups haven't been indoctrinating children since their existence?

I just can't believe this guy expects people to take him seriously when he's making comments like that.

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