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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

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51. Comment #5931 by Allison on November 11, 2006 at 10:49 pm

Dear David

I called your letter utter Crap because of certain falsehoods contained within it. In case you are unaware of it, atheists in the USA are treated very badly. I gave a few examples in my life of things that have happened. I had quite a bit more things happen as well. I know that this is only anecdotal evidence, but when large numbers of atheists in the US have similar stories, one can notice a certain trend.

Since you assert that atheists in the US are not treated badly, and that this is false, why should I believe any of your other assertions that God, Jesus, and other supernatural friends exists? I'm a person that needs a certain level of evidence for me to accept that something is true. What empirical evidence can you show me for the existance of such supernatural beings? And don't give me the old "But they exist outside the natural universe and can't be observed."

If something interacts with the natural world, then it must be observable in the natural world and open to scientific investigation. You can't both insist that God affects nature, and then claim that God exists outside of nature and can't be studied. So where's your evidence? Or are you a Deist with a god completely out of the universe and does not directly interact with the universe? Which is it?

52. Comment #5937 by melisande on November 11, 2006 at 11:52 pm

23. Comment #5721

Ha ha ha!!
The extended dawkotype....that's great.

53. Comment #5938 by IAMWHATIAM on November 12, 2006 at 12:28 am

Many of the arguments here came across as rather intelligent in the beginning, then they became murkier and murkier as I started reading later down the way. Everyone knows that religion is bogus. Even religious people question their beliefs. As human beings, we all need something to believe in. The powers at the top realized this fact and cast the cloak of religion upon us, to control us. Deus ex machina, as was mentioned above, not only to play on our need for something to believe in but, even worse, the powers that be used this belief to dominate and control us, not just to appease us. All major religions stem from the Judaic principles and the old testament. I will concede that the teachings in the bible are immensely helpful in our day to day survival. There are amazing moral principles and spiritual teachings which help us get through the daily grind of our lives. The bible teaches us dietary codes, some of which have been dismissed as outdated and no longer relevant, but which come highly recommended for one's optimum health. The bible teaches us to treat each other fairly and as we like to be treated. I think all these principles are sound and highly recommended. I also believe in karma because many times I have suffered for my unkindness or mean thoughts toward others as, conversely, I have been rewarded for my good deeds. Maybe it is my mindset or personal beliefs or conditioning which makes all this happen or maybe there is actually a law of spiritual and mystical justice in the universe. You be the judge. There is a lot of power in our thoughts. Our thoughts even create and shape our reality. If you believe hard enough in something and work toward achieving it, it will happen. The key is to not only believe in it but work hard toward it.

I believe in a higher power. The power could even lie in ourselves: in our thoughts, in our minds, in our beliefs. We have more power than we realize. We have hidden talents, untapped resources in ourselves. The human being is fascinating, the human being is magical. Who created the human being? Who said the human being had to be created??? And if so, by a higher power or force? But I don't believe in WORSHIPPING a higher power or going through rituals. That's the part of the bible which smacks of bogus. It is a way to keep us busy or distracted. Who is trying to distract us?

Now I wish to address the point which was made earlier about poverty, disease and disasters in the universe. I am going to go back to the powers that be. There is an elite group of people, referred to as the illuminati, who have a stranglehold over our world. They have made their rise to the top through brute strength, then cunning and then material wealth. They feel that this gives them the right to control all the people who are beneath them intellectually, financially, and class wise. A form of Darwin's "survival of the fittest", if you will. They have been dominating us for generations. Why is there poverty, disease and war? It is all artificially created by the illuminati to keep them at the top and keep everyone else who are not on the same level sheep-like in their ignorance and fear. Look around us. There are wars, poverty, diseases, natural disasters. There is no need for war, there is enough food in the world to feed everyone many times over, the diseases have been eliminated through sanitary conditions and cleanliness. Even today's natural disasters are created through weather control and satellites. Modern technology has enslaved all men in more ways than we realize. War is a way for the illuminati to control the population. Food is deliberately being withheld from the needy, again to control the population. Our food is being systematically and categorically poisoned by chemicals to keep us fat, sick or diseased. This way, the people at the top, such as those running corporations and governments, will always be in control over the rest of us. The pharmaceutical industry will always be rich, the doctors will always be rich, the politicians will always stay rich (thanks to the tax dollars of the hard working lower classes), the diet food industry will always be rich, because these are all the people at the top and they wish to stay up there. They artificially hurt the rest of us to remain in power and to remain wealthy. Even lawyers have established their domination by constantly creating controversy over the simplest cases. The media in the United States, my friends, does not have free speech. It is controlled by the government and the illuminati, the powerful people at the top. The wars are also created to chip away at the rights of the little people. Notice how the government is using terrorism, which it instigated deliberately, to take away our constitutional rights, at airports, in buildings, in subway stations, anywhere. We are also being fined for any minor offense. The government is constantly looking for ways to get money out of us. That is because the U.S. government has been bankrupt since 1933 and the illuminati, made up of billionaire private bankers, are actually in control. They plan for world domination in the very near future. They have been plotting this takeover for centuries, through their children and children's children. It is called the New World Order and the takeover is near. There are 190 countries in the world and the illuminati already have control over 160 of them. The wars in the world are created as distractions to the masses so the people at the top can take over yet another nation. If anyone doubts this, I urge you to research this on your own. Look up New World Order online. If the illuminati did not exist and did not wield their power over us through their greed and maybe even boredom (they have everything so what else could they do but toy with people's lives), there would be world peace and no wars, no hunger, no poverty, great strides and advances in science and modern technology (everyone could take flights to Mars, for instance), no diseases, and no more suffering. The illuminati are CREATING THE ILLS OF THE WORLD ARTIFICIALLY. THEY ARE THE ENEMY OF ALL MANKIND AND THE WORLD. They have positioned themselves as the false god of the world, ruling over everyone and everything.

In short, all men who have made it to the top are atheists posing as being religious to appease the rest of us sheep so we continue believing in their laws and rules. This is one way in which they control us, through religion. As for the issue of god's existence, how can I believe in god when I know that religion has been artificially created to control the masses? The catholic church actually created the muslim religion. I urge everyone to research this as well. Also, notice that anyone who is religious is following what would be deemed psychotic people. Abraham heard god and believed in him blindly, and was prepared to kill his only hard begotten son to prove his devotion until he heard "voices" advising him otherwise. Moses heard and saw god and believed in him blindly, even had 3 million people believe that they heard god speak. Mary had visions of angels appearing to speak to her. Sounds like a bad acid trip to me. These people sound like they were all on crack or some kind of hallucinogens or clinically depressed. And these are the people we are supposed to blindly believe in. The new testament became even more creative with their stories. Virgin birth, resurrection, walking on water, water turning into wine, etc. You get the drift. Lots of crazy stories, magic tricks, twists and turns, fairy tales and lies. People have been force fed this hog wash for centuries. Are the people at the top having a laugh at the expense of the blindly believing followers? I wonder.

We all need something to believe in. Those people who crawled to the top have capitalized on this belief by making it into big business and controlling the rest of us, psychologically as well as financially, physically and mentally. The richer they are, the more they want. Greed is human nature. But the people have the power. We can make anything happen if we come together!!! We need to overthrow the destructive people at the top before it is too late. We are being spied upon through the internet, another form of control and the reason the internet was created. Our telephone conversations, much like our e-mail messages, are being monitored/listened in on. The movie link which I shared at the bottom, "From Freedom to Fascism" explains how human chips are being created to keep us even more in line. Big Brother anyone? The Matrix, anyone? Also, notice how the people in power always lie to us and appease us by saying that everything which is being done to deliberately control us is for our own good and great benefit and advantage. That is how they lure us into passive acceptance of our domination. Otherwise, if we knew they were forcing everything on us, surely, there would be a revolution. They are very clever, always playing on our fears, trust and gullibility. They are also clever in that they disguise truths in the world as fiction in movies. As mentioned previously, the media is under their control, including what is reported and censored in the news. As for movies, some of the things which are being shown as fantasy are actually reality. Check out Star Wars (the illuminati actually have messages to the rest of us in that movie but only the smart ones and the clued in ones will understand and catch on), The Terminator, and all futuristic movies and movies on technology and science (space movies, for example). Everyone needs to start paying closer attention. On the surface, these movies are created to entertain us. In reality, they serve as distractions from truth. On an even deeper level, the clever ones will also notice there are hidden messages to the masses from the people at the top. I could go on and on and talk about credit card fraud and counterfeit money infiltrated on the unsuspecting masses which is being condoned by the government under the domination of the powerful billionaire bankers but I have outlined a multitude already.

These are not the idle rantings of a lunatic but someone who understands the secrets of the world. Here are websites I urge everyone to visit to further elaborate on my points and present proof of my words as to the existence of the dark force in our lives for centuries, the illuminati.

There are sinister forces and evil people at play in the universe. The sooner more of us realized this, the better! We can all do something about it before it is too late. We the people have the power to make this world into whatever we choose.

Http://www.wtv-zone.com/mary/federalreserve.html

This is an excellent movie about how our constitutional rights are being deliberately taken away by the people at the top through artificially created disasters, such as hurricanes and wars. See it before it gets taken down! I don't know how much longer our internet usage will be free and unhindered by censorship, since we are being spied upon every day by the higher ups through our internet usage. Until that day arrives, WAKE UP AND STOP BEING SHEEP! ALL OUR LIVES AND FREEDOMS ARE IN DANGER!

Http://www.poodlecrap.com/hateliars/hl_video1.asp?part=0

54. Comment #5939 by Jenna on November 12, 2006 at 1:10 am

"The clear fresh air of Jesus Christ"? The same Jesus who says that if you don't believe in him, his father (God, of course. All mythical heroes are demigods) will send you to a fiery pit that He had created just for that purpose to have you roast for eternity. Most people forget that jesus was not all "love and light". He demanded that anyone who would follow him would have to abandon, even hate, his birth family. He condemned the Pharisses for no longer stoning to death disobedient children. This is not the model of family values and love here.
As for the author's comment on John Lennon, how many priests preach "blessed are the poor" while the Vatican has billions of dollars in art, land, and currency? Perhaps if they truly wanted to do what they claim is Jesus's message (to help people) they would sell all those beautiful centuries old paintings and sculptures and live off the land again.
Lastly, as for would be atheists not needing any rescueing. Perhaps not in Britain, but many in the States find it easier to state that you're racist or have committed a real crime than it is to admit that you do not believe in a deity. People view you as if you just said that you like to eat the beating hearts of Christian children as they walk hand in hand with their own child. To become a politician who is not religious is not nearly impossible here; it is impossible. People would rather elect Ted Bundy (provided, of course, that he came out and said that he's a born again Christian ) than an atheist who does volunteer work for sick children every weekend. Many people who are atheists in their hearts and minds find that once they claim that title, they have people constantly bombarding them with questions trying to reaffirm their own faith (ha, ha, Mr. Big Bad Atheist can't answer that one!). Religious people need only to refer to their holy text to answer a question. Atheists must present centuries of science, philosophy, and sociology in their defense. Prof. Dawkins does an excellent job helping his readers to hold their own (and indeed, for any objective person, to win) in a debate with a religious person. My eyes were opened to quite a few concepts in his book (such as why and how the eye evolved. I understood evolution in theory prior to reading, but his simified explainations truly helped make sense of things that seemed so complex and I can't wait to use his proofs!).
the one thing I can agree on, unfortunately, with the author of this article is that by and large Prof Dawkins will be preaching to the choir. It's a shame that hardly any people of faith will give this book a chance (especially since most of us were forced to read the Bible or Koran sometime in our lives). I would love to see this book in every school library, not forced on anyone, but available to those who are curious and brave enough to challenge their preconceptions and to give it a read. This is a fanastic book, one that should not be overlooked, and one that should be encouraged reading for a whole new generation. Jenna

55. Comment #5940 by Jenna on November 12, 2006 at 1:39 am

Dear Mr. Robinson,
I'll make this quick. Okay, you believe in the Bible and the Ten Commandments, correct? Do you own a painting or statue of Jesus or a saint? If so, that's idoltry and punishable by death. Do you refrain from any kind of cooking, work, or travel on Saturday (Friday sunset to Saturday sunset)? This is the "true" Sabbath, and if you don't refrain you're breaking a commandment which is, again, punishable by death. And please don't give the old "Jesus superceded the law" agrument. If you read Matthew 5:18-19, Luke 16:17, and Matt. 5:17, you'll see that Jesus says that the heavens and the earth will have to pass away before one letter of the law should be changed. And there's alot of stuff you might want to look up in the Torah to make sure you're not breaking any. I have yet to meet a carnivorous Christian who keeps kosher, yet they want to weap over the Ten Commandments being removed from a public place. Since you are not catholic, it's obvious that you were able to get pass the centuries of dogma that Catholicism holds. Why can you not get past this one final step? I've always wondered that about Martin Luther, how he could question so much, yet when that one tiny step was left, to question the Bible itself, he chose to remain entrapped in just as much superstition as the Catholic church which he had so criticized.
Prof Dawkins has helped me and millions of others find our voice. If ,in reading with your religious preconceptions, you did not grasp the message which he is trying to convey then unfortunately that is your loss. I grew up in a very religious household (Jewish father, Catholic mum) and everyday felt as if I were suffocating under the weight of myths that even to my young brain did not make sense and I could tell were, at best, simply the way an unsophisticated society explained the world, at worst a book based on selling the common people lies so that a few could keep them under close control. If you have found meaning in religion, mazel tov, but most of us here would rather admit what we don't know about the universe and seek to discover it rather than be content with lies. Shalom, Jenna

56. Comment #5942 by melisande on November 12, 2006 at 1:54 am

David,
sort of OT--
Though you may already be aware of this phenomenon, the internet brings people together....to yell at each other.
It's very easy to "dehumanize" the target when each person becomes symbolized by text on the screen.
Although I don't think it's helpful for people to spout insults here, in fact I find it grating and embarrassing, it is a common enough occurrence in almost any public debate on the web and shouldn't end up being focussed on.

Personally, what I've observed and even experienced is an abrupt change in manner if the same person one had been insulting online was encountered In Real Life. Meaning that I'm reasonably sure the vitriol that may be hurled around on here should not be extrapolated into a real world situation.

There are lots of people who visit this site and read the articles who do not immediately post kneejerk derisive, insulting or violent comments...in fact they probably don't post at all... And of course there are obviously the people who are still trying to engage in the argument a little more maturely. Of course, almost all of them think you're wrong. It _is_ Dawkins' website, after all.

If I wrote a pro choice article that was posted on an anti abortion website, or a review that disparaged vegetarianism and espoused the merits of bacon (mmmm, bacon...) on a vegan website I'm sure it would get the same kind of attacks. I'm not saying either of those examples are perfect replicas of the situation here, but just describing the general for/against type of scene....

It's an unfortunate, but not surprising, reaction and I do hope that you get the type of valuable debate aspired to here amidst the antagonism and random "poophead" remarks. Of course, they may now end up directed at _me_, but, whatever.

Cheers,
Melisande

P.S. I did comment on someone else's post that made fun of the title, and I do still find "The Extended Dawkotype" hilarious. Come on...it's funny! Let's all just have a laugh for a second before jumping back into the fray...
;^)

57. Comment #5947 by Paul Creber on November 12, 2006 at 2:38 am

In a post above, No More Hornets invites us to visit his or her blog. Having just done so, I can commend it to everyoine as a rare repository of brilliance, wit and insight.

58. Comment #5949 by Anonymous on November 12, 2006 at 2:48 am

Jack
Jenna. If you were convinced by Dawkins arguments that only shows how hopelessly naοve you are. Lets consider his argument concerning the eye, shall we:

Fine talk from a guy that holds up a book written 3000 years ago by a bunch of tribal sheep rustlers as the absolute truth. You keep talking of complex systems, but fail to show how your god could come into being. Arguements of infinite regress terminated by god are a cheap and feeble cop out that avoids asking the question of where god came from. Also, if the is a creator god, you have no evidence that he is your god. Your logic breaks down at this point
Want to discuss transitional fossils again? want to discuss the problems of genesis 1 vs 2 again?

Check out this link - a dolphin that has an extra set of flippers where there were none before - amazing eh? and all down to evolutionary history

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=23906&in_page_id=34

59. Comment #5950 by Paul Creber on November 12, 2006 at 2:53 am

In a post above, No More Hornets invites us to visit his or her blog. Having just done so, I can commend it to everyone as a rare repository of brilliance, wit and insight.

60. Comment #5954 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 3:07 am

Anonymous (post 113)sounds suspiciously like Billy Sands. Anyway, I gave my second response to Gen 1& 2 so if you've responded to that then inform me of the location.

A dolphin that has an extra pair of flippers?? Well, thats fine evidence for the evolution of the pinhole camera - Not.
In fact its not even evidence for macro-evolution of any kind including the dolphin. It fails to explain the evolution of the dolphin. It fails to explain the evolution of the genetic information for the flippers of the dolphin.
In essence its totally irrelevant.

we havn't discussed "transitional fossils", have we??

61. Comment #5955 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 3:09 am

Post 116.
Man, am I perceptive or what??? See opening sentence of 117

62. Comment #5958 by oj on November 12, 2006 at 3:12 am

Holly
"Just a small question - have any of you actually read the Bible before dismissing it as junk? "

The funny thing, Holly, is that many so-called Christians that I meet here in Norway (most Protestants, a few Catholics) seems to never have taken the time to read it.

I always suggest that they should do that: "Read it like a book! You are in for some big suprises ;-)"

As I said to Robertson (see Comment #5881), the only way that I find any meaning in that book is by reading it as a historic document.

In the reply to me (I really admire Robertson for what he does here) he said:
"It is primarily the story of God and of humanity and it offers us the best explanation of, and way to deal with, the evil in our midst."

The problem then is that the God (a man) you get is a very nasty one. Not omnipotent and not omniscient. You "jump" (Soren Kierkegaard understood faith as a leap over 70,000 fathoms of water) out of all reason.

*** Fiction or facts:***
Here in Norway we have some people that take the bible as facts. They believe that the world was created some 6000 years ago.

The historicity of the Old Testament has been a matter of debate, particularly since the 19th century. One group of scholars claimed that most of the societies mentioned in the Bible, such as the Assyrians and Babylonians, were allegedly fictional due to lack of archaeological evidence.

The funny thing is that archeology now has evidence of these civilisations (ruins of Nineveh, Babylon, and other cities were found).

Let me ask you two, Holly and Robertson (and other Christians as well):

(I now suppose you accept the archeological facts of Babylon etc.)

How do you look at Darwin and the theory of evolution ?

Kind regards,

Ole

63. Comment #5962 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 3:34 am

Sensible suggestion about sticking to the thread. Think I'll heed that as in some sense a "trust worthy saying that deserves full acceptance".

I'd agree with you assessment that the the flippers are related to reactivated DNA from its ancestors that had four flippers. Nevertheless, I'm sure you'd agree that one still has to explain the origin of the info' for those (four) flippers in the first place. Info' loss and retrieval is significantly different to its origin and evolution.

I think you have replied to my position on Gen 1&2 in which case I'VE missed it and I'm going to have to go and find it. Thanks.

64. Comment #5965 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 3:43 am

OK, quick response to Melisande (theres such a downside to being confronted by several atheists at once) and then I'm looking for Sand's position on Gen 1&2.

"touching upon major steps". Yes, but thats his interpretation for which there exists no evidence as already stated. They are NOT steps in any sense because they do not form a series in any sense.

The fact that the eye evolved 40 times is evidence that it wasn't designed??

That, I have to say, is a ludicrous arguement. Why would the designer use the same design for all animals? Surely he would use a design that best fits the enviroment of that creature. Further, if he had used the same design then in fact that would be evidence for evolution contrary to your point. It is pr4ecisely the fact that 'its' evolved so many times independently that strains evolutionary explanations. This is proven by the fact that prof Dawkins has to use the above argument. Why doesn't he just point to a genuine series? Maybe, because there isn't one.

Right, I'm off to find the billy Sand's response

65. Comment #5966 by maryhelena on November 12, 2006 at 3:44 am

Hi, Hugh (comment 86)

"From these posts even the Atheists seem to be acknowledging Jesus' existence. What evidence exists that supports that claim?"

Well, I'm one atheist who does not believe that 'Jesus' was a historical person - I'm well and truly in the mythological camp on that one!

One book, for those interested, is The Jesus Mysteries by Freke and Gandy. There are others of course but this one should be on the shelves of most bookstores.

Methinks that if one wants to knock Christianity on the head, so to speak, then an 'attack' upon 'Jesus' claimed historical authenticity could provide a bit of ground shifting for the whole christian edifice. Christianity can easily survive the demise of it's theist god - but it will have to work a whole lot harder in the theological department to the loss of a human 'Jesus'. (see Lloyd Geering's book, Christianity without God - I've not read it but I've read his article Christianity Minus Theism, on which it's partly based).

Sorry about this being a bit off topic - and, no, I've no interest in debating the issue on this site. Just letting you know where I stand…:-)

66. Comment #5970 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 3:53 am

Am I ever going to escape??
126
"It is precisely the fact that 'its' evolved so many times independently""

Obviously I meant that the fact that the theory requires vision to have evolved 40 times independently strains the theory of evolution. It is difficult enough to envisage it happening once (as demonstrated by Dawkins attempts to explain it) but FORTY TIMES??

67. Comment #5971 by Lapsed Humanist on November 12, 2006 at 3:53 am

What causes such frustration among atheists and agnostics alike, and lead many - including myself - to refrain from engaging in discussions with devout evangelisers, are their often muddled and irrational discussion techniques;
The distinct lack of rationality with which they approach discussions, jumping from one point of discussion to another (seemingly preferring many superficially defended [forwarded is perhaps more to the point] pieces of 'evidence' in favour of analysing each piece – one-by-one - in depth;
Often seemingly wilfully ignoring arguments or deliberately misattributing them (as Sands in #5960 seems to be a perfect example of), so that they can dismiss them out of hand.

Its an unbeatable time-waster.

68. Comment #5972 by Lapsed Humanist on November 12, 2006 at 4:02 am

Ups.. meant to refer to Sparrow #5954

69. Comment #5979 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 4:40 am

OK, trying to escape from this thread is like trying to escape from Mobile.

135
"If there was a designer that created my eyes he could have done a bit of a better job. At least my contacts were intelligently designed....by scientists"

Melisande, listen to yourself.
Maybe you would care to explain how the designer could have done a better job? Similarly even if the eye was imperfectly designed it is still way ahead of anything similar that man has made. Why do you find it easy to recignise that something as relatively simple as a contact lens was designed but not the eye?? I'm also not clear as to your meaning when you say "at least my cotacts were intelligently designed.....by scientists". Is there a point here?

Cheers

70. Comment #5983 by scot on November 12, 2006 at 5:01 am

Many of the posters on this thread are doing themselves a disfavour by making personal comments and challenges on David without knowing him. I have known for several years and while I do not share his beliefs I know him to be a man who strives to live up to his christian ideals. He is down to earth, very much in touch with the 'real world, open minded and accepting of others who do not share his faith.
Stick to rational debate and stop the ignorant mud slinging at David and his church.

71. Comment #5987 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 5:09 am

141
"Ther are lots of improvements..."

What I find incredible is that when discussing the eye evolutionists seem to be only capable of noticing alleged defects or suggesting theoretical improvements as if, somehow, this negates the arguemnt for design.

Even if such were true it doesn't affect the reality of design. One wouldn't reason that because video cameras today are superior to ones ten years ago that the ones ten years previously were any less intelligently designed.

I suggest you read this web cos I'm about to have my dinner:
www.creationontheweb.com/content/view/840

Its by George Marshall whos PhD was in Opthalmic science and who is Sir jules Lecturer in Ophthalmic Science. He responds specifically to Dawkkins but also other points

72. Comment #5988 by Yorker on November 12, 2006 at 5:14 am

Jack Sparrow,

If you come here trying to deny the fact of evolution, you must do a whole lot better than you're doing right now. You ask for evidence, it's all around you, just open your imperfectly designed eyes and you'll see it. Admittedly, your eyes are nowhere near as good as those of your feathered friends, but should still be adequate.

To defeat Darwinian evolution you'll have to provide stronger evidence to counter it, excessive use of expression symbols and uppercase bellowing, isn't going to cut it. It's simple, just present your superior evidence and we'll listen. You come across as an angry man, is there somthing stuck up your "beak" perhaps, or did someone "clip your wings" lately?

73. Comment #5989 by Robert on November 12, 2006 at 5:26 am

I agree the ad hominem attacks should cease. Resorting to personal insults is usually the sign of someone who's losing an argument because the facts and logic are against them. Either that or it's just bullying.

74. Comment #5997 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 6:24 am

No I do not believe that God is improving himself. The point about video cameras was simply that a greater level of sophistication or complexity in one (which in the cameras case is the more recent) does not alter the fact that the less sophisticated ones (ie the earlier) were designed by an intelligence. Similarly one can't say that because in respects the bird eye is superior to the human that therefore the human eye wasn't designed.

No I don't believe the snowflake was designed and thats precisely the point. Snowflakes are elemental and their pattern can be explained. They do not have interacting parts that contribute to a certain result. They do not evidence organised complexity

75. Comment #5999 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 6:32 am

I read the article on talkorigins but I'm not sure you did, Billy.

Darwin's argument is the same as dawkins eg Darwin begins with a light sensitive photospot etc I've already responded to this.

"The increments between these steps are slight and may be broken down into smaller increments".
Well on the evidence of the 'series' offered on talkorigins the increments are most certainly not small. Further, the alleged "smaller increments" are not given which means that all we are left with is a series of independant structures which are unrelated as admitted by Prof dawkins.
Indeed Talkorigins admits, "We do not know that the development of the eye followed that path but we certainly cannot claim that no path exists"
That is of course nonsense. There is no path because the only one they offer from Darwin through to Dawkins is one that is made up of independant, unrelated structures

76. Comment #6007 by Lapsed Humanist on November 12, 2006 at 7:19 am

With all due respect David Robertson (Comment #5996) I believe that you cut my comment in a somewhat self-serving manner, sweetly emphasizing the validity of the last (ignored) part, which actually was the crux of the point (pasted at the end of this comment):

David Robertson (Comment #5996): "Lapsed Humanist (132) – "What causes such frustration among atheists and agnostics alike, and lead many - including myself - to refrain from engaging in discussions with devout evangelisers, are their often muddled and irrational discussion techniques; The distinct lack of rationality with which they approach discussions, jumping from one point of discussion to another" -
"Your post perfectly describes the responses I have had on this thread (with a few honourable exceptions such as Aussie and Jared). The responses are largely muddled, irrational, jumping from one point of discussion to another. An excellent description."

……The distinct lack of rationality with which they approach discussions, jumping from one point of discussion to another (seemingly preferring many superficially defended [forwarded is perhaps more to the point] pieces of 'evidence' in favour of analysing each piece – one-by-one - in depth; Often seemingly willfully ignoring arguments or deliberately misattributing them

Regards

77. Comment #6009 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 7:22 am

Hi Billy,

In what sense are they intermediates? How does the proffered series support evolution? By Dakins admission they don't represent any lineage whether according to theory or empirical data.
Where/how did the light sensitive photospot evolve? What use was 5,15,25% of a light sensitive photospot? What turns over the sides of the cup to make a lensless pinhole camera? How was it beneficial when only 35% "turned over"? How did the organism evolve a system to interpret the relavant data simultaneously? One can't just seperate what goes on with the structure of the organ of vision from the ability to interpret that data to eg avoid predators.

78. Comment #6010 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 7:27 am

Archaeopteryx has fully formed, highly complex, interlocking feathers and shows evidence of being capable of powered flight. The fact that it had teeth doesn't resolve the issue of reptile to bird/scale to feather evolution or, indeed, evolution of teeth even. No series leads up to it and, I think, birds similar to modern birds have been found at the so-called lower levels.

79. Comment #6026 by Jared on November 12, 2006 at 8:55 am

Mr. Robertson:

I'd like to thank you for taking my advice and largely changing both the logical structure and tone of your comments. That's a lot more than I can say for a lot of people on both sides of the debate. Being an American, I do have to admit that my own experience has been that most of the people on the 'faith' side of the issue are less willing to do so, but that's not a measure of people of the faith on the whole, just of my experience. So, well done.

The best thing about toning down the vitriol and adding amounts of logic is that discussion becomes much easier. I still disagree with your position, and I'll warrant that you still disagree with mine...but in logical debate there is no harm in disagreement.

While the amount of evidence or logic it would take for either one of us to switch to the other's side would be, if you'll pardon my use of the word, miraculous, at least we can discuss the issue and better understand one another as people in this light.

Cheers!

80. Comment #6030 by Thomas on November 12, 2006 at 9:11 am

On the science side: something cannot always have been and everything cannot come from nothing. Where did matter/energy come from? Big Bang is a cop out on this, and postulating the multiverse doesn't help.

On the Religion side: Omega cannot come before alpha. Impossible.

The problem both have or leave unanswered is: where did anything (much less everything) originate? Science at least is working on it, religion on the other hand is not, nor does it need to thanks to the "beyond human understanding" thing.

81. Comment #6032 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 9:24 am

Billy, in regard to Archaeopteryx the evolutionist Alan Feduccia of the University of North Carolina says, " Paleontologists have tried to turn Archaeopteryx into an earthbound, feathered dinosaur. But its not. It is a bird, a perching bird. And no amount of paleobabble is going to change that"

A number of extinct birds had teeth, while many reptiles do not.
There exists no lineage to demonstrate how the creature evolved from reptiles and, therefore, it fails to provide evidence for evolution. Evolution requires lineage and this isn't being provided.

regards, Jack

82. Comment #6037 by No More Hornets on November 12, 2006 at 9:51 am

David comments:
<>

This is the typical Christian strategy of hijacking a discussion and bullying its agenda.
I thought the discussion of atheists and humor was extremely interesting. By the way, David, the question raised was whether non-atheists have a sense of humor. Do you?

By the way, David, how do you explain the cannibalistic part of your religion: eating the flesh and drinking the blood of your god. Don't try to weasel out of this by saying it's symbolic. Even if it is, it's still pretty disgusting, don't you think?

83. Comment #6038 by No More Hornets on November 12, 2006 at 9:54 am

Oops. I lost David's quote. Here it is:

I'm sorry but I think discussing the evolution of the eye or whether athesists (sic) have a sense of humor is not really relevant to this thread - so lets (sic) not get sidetracked.

84. Comment #6040 by Riley on November 12, 2006 at 10:05 am

David,

[David Robertson wrote:]I accept Dawkins as an atheist because I believe that he means what he says.

This is a straw man. My response was not to you calling Dawkins an "atheist" (of course, that's what he calls himself), it's toward your pejoritive remark calling him a fundementalist atheist, which if true, I would have no problems with. But you couldn't be further off the mark.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
[David Robertson wrote:]It is impossible to be neutral on matters of faith when they impinge on other matters.

Impossible someone who confuses matters of faith with matters of faith perhaps, but certainly not impossible otherwise.

In fact, this is a very important point for you to undrstand if you care to better understand Dawkins serious misgivings with regard to religion. It is not the dangers of "religion" per say he sees as the threat, it is specifically the idea that faith is a virtue, which is promoted by many religions (and perhaps inseperable from the idea of religion). It is this idea that it's just fine for someone to simply believe something because they believe it, and as such pass faith-based law and policy. Even carry the prideful certainty of faith to the extent of dieing and even killing in the name of that faith. That's the danger.

What hope is there of resolving conflicts if there are people who believe fanatically about something for which reason and evidence play little or no role?

Get rid of this idea of faith as a virtue (both where it exists in religion and outside religion), and the world would be a much, much better place.(of course Dawkins equates faith with religion, and this is why he attacks religion)

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[David Robertson wrote:]I still think you are not getting my point about the BBC. It is not that they do not produce programmes ABOUT religion.
No, I think I understand you. But the evidence (at least based on the titles and brief description of the programs I found) starkly contradict you assertion.

Are you honestly contending that programs like: "In Praise of God", "Unitarians explain their faith", "Sunday Worship", and "Prayer for the Day" are not programs OF relgion? They are not ENTIRELY NON-SECULAR? It would seem to me that these programs are actively promoting a theistic and religious view point. But I haven't actuallyu watched them, so I really can't say.

[David Robertson wrote:]It is that they do so from the default position that secular atheism is the real philosophy.

Again, secularism and atheism are two entirely seperate an unconnected philosophies that you seem to be intentionally uniting.

Seriously, what's wrong with starting from the assumption on matters of faith, that we don't and can't know one way or the other. Isn't that what 'faith' is by definition? The only alternative is that you favor one the views of one person's unproven view over another.

In the United States, conjoining secularism and atheism is the synical strategy of the Christian right who seek to destroy religious freedom in favor of a Evangelical Christian hegemony.

[David Robertson wrote:]For example would they allow me (or any bible believing Christian) to produce a programme which interviewed Dawkins to ask him why he was an atheist?

I can't answer a hypothetical about an organization that I know little about. But your facts on the ground on all other matters have been so out of whack with reality that I wont bother to argue about any of this anymore. What's the point, when all your facts are shotty? This of course is Dawkins position on not participating in formal debates with creationists - you again totally mischaracterized Dawkins position on this.

All I can say is this: Whatch "Reading of The God Delusion in Lynchburg, VA" posted on the Richard Dawkins home page and broadcasted in the United States on C-SPAN2.

In it notice Dawkins in the descussion period, being riddled with questions from faculty and students of Liberty 'University' (a young earth preaching school for fundamentalist Christians) and discussing with these 'fundamentalists' ideas about God and evolution.

Didn't you say that Dawkins doesn't discuss such things with 'fundamentals'? "or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with [Dawkins]" ?

You need to get your facts right, before reaching your conclusions.

Really, I've genuinely enjoyed reading you more than adequatley take-apart the ad hominem attacks and bigoted characteerization that you've endured from so many of the overly zealous "bad cop" members of this board. When it comes to self-contained reasoning you are very solid. But like so many of the faithful, I believ that you are cherry picking convenient facts, while ignoring the inconvenient ones.



---

85. Comment #6042 by Riley on November 12, 2006 at 10:09 am

Impossible for someone who confuses matters of faith with matters of fact perhaps, but certainly not impossible otherwise.

86. Comment #6044 by Terri on November 12, 2006 at 10:11 am

#173
No more - I think its fair for David to ask people to stick to the point of the thread - it helps reasonable debate. Why not start a new thread on athiests and humour?

87. Comment #6045 by Yorker on November 12, 2006 at 10:13 am

Fellow atheists,

Why are we wasting valuable web-space on Jack Sparrow? This man is simply a blethering, run-of-the-mill, common-or-garden, god-of-the-gaps creationist who thinks that a fossil has to exist for every minor mutation. His arguments have been destroyed time and time again to the point of stupefying boredom, its a futile waste of time engaging him in intelligent discussion. Even after Judge Jones kicked the arse of him and his kind out of Dover, they still bleat on.

Intelligent Design, holy shit (literally), they don't even have enough intelligence to realise the only people who will listen to them are weak-minded delusionists like themselves. I've said before we should be kind towards those who are deluded but seek to learn, creationists don't merit kindness, they should be shunned as outcasts because they are dangerous fools.

But things are improving, Ted Haggard has shown himself to be the lying hypocrite of the century, and sane American citizens will soon remove their god-befuddled, only partially-evolved leader from office. The danger of these religious maniacs getting their grubby fingers on the nuclear - or "newkular" as Bush says - trigger, still remains however.

All we can do is be patient and wait for Darwinian natural selection to do its unstoppable job of removing them from the gene pool, and give real Earth-bound humanity the chance to survive.

88. Comment #6047 by Terri on November 12, 2006 at 10:16 am

#177. lol

89. Comment #6056 by Anonymous on November 12, 2006 at 10:44 am

For anyone interested in finding out more about David Robertson's writings and beliefs go to http://www.freechurch.org and click on todays issues. You may not agree with his views but he's an interesting read

90. Comment #6058 by No More Hornets on November 12, 2006 at 11:01 am

Billy and others:

Of course, any atheist would agree that there are thousands of inconsistencies, falsehoods, and inanities in the bible. However, why do we dignify this book by referring to it at all? Asking Christians to parse it verse by verse does not seem to serve any purpose in a rational discussion. Why not ask them to vouch for the truth of every line in the Odyssey, the Gilgamesh epic, or Wagner's Ring Cycle? Or Tolien's Hobbit series, for that matter?

The bottom line for believers is: Reason is not a necessary element of faith. Even those who claim they are employing rationality are always forced to make some mental leap that cannot be justified by data. Why do we attempt to reason with unreasonability? I think that by accepting any of their premises as debatable issues we do ourselves a disservice.

At what point do we finally throw up our hands and say: If you want to continue to believe in the Easter bunny, go ahead. When you find its eggs, give me a buzz.

91. Comment #6073 by Terri on November 12, 2006 at 12:40 pm

#186. Mike I'm sure David would welcome you 'popping' into his church - even if it was for a laugh:-)

I don't get your reasoning for 'bombarding' the free church site with 'challenges'. Surely you are much more likely to convince people if you enter into a reasoned debate?!

p.s sorry for posting anon. Slip of the keyboard.

92. Comment #6077 by Terri on November 12, 2006 at 12:57 pm

You should definitely go to St Pete's when you are in Dundee. Unlikely to be a hat in sight and don't assume that the person in front with a lovely mane is a lady - you could get a nasty shock!
The modern Free Church (especially but not exclusively in urban areas)is far removed from the idea you appear to have of it. The Dundee congregation is very eclectic with many young, well educated people some with a scientific background. Many of them welcome constructive debate and they are no stranger to serious criticism. In my experience its not something they shirk.

93. Comment #6082 by Bitterman on November 12, 2006 at 1:07 pm

159. Comment #6009 by Jack Sparrow on November 12, 2006 at 7:22 am

Hi Billy,

In what sense are they intermediates? How does the proffered series support evolution? By Dakins admission they don't represent any lineage whether according to theory or empirical data.

Hi Jack, as a shorthand approach, I always find it instructive (if you find the evolution of the eye difficult to appreciate) to look at the speed at which a sperm/egg progresses to become a human being. I am not sure if this is a solid analogy in all respects but it does make you realise what nature can achieve in 9 months. You at least must be able to entertain what is possible after a longer stretch of time.

94. Comment #6083 by Terri on November 12, 2006 at 1:11 pm

Times change Mike - even in the Free Church!
the Rev Robertson himself had long hair for many moons - what you see now is the effect of age:-)
Seriously it's a lesson not to judge - go see for yourself! If you can't wait for your trip to Dundee there are congregations all over Scotland and one in London.

95. Comment #6089 by Terri on November 12, 2006 at 1:32 pm

Not my purpose Mike. Not being a christian myself and with beliefs much more akin to Dawkins than to Robertson.

What has surprised/annoyed me about this debate is the level of intolerance towards christians at least some of which appears to be based on ignorance and misguided preconceptions.

David has clearly said that he intends to present his arguments over a serious of weeks. Hopefully he will bring well thought out considerations worthy of serious debate.

96. Comment #6095 by goddogit on November 12, 2006 at 2:51 pm

Although there are theists who actually engage in debate, and who have undeniably charming theories that include a God/gods, they are essentially arguing a complementary position to the reasonable "live and let live" brand of atheist.
They are absolutely not the hardcore theist control freaks that form nearly all the diseased "born-again" churches, at least in America (and apparently Britain), nor the brand of Islam that insists upon a form of Islamic law hundreds of years out-of-date. These are not theists, but social/political fanatics unable to come to terms with the life they have, and eager to retreat in a fantasy world where they become (or can imagine themselves) powerful and individually important. It is a sort of explosive mental cocktail of vanity, fear, impotence and ignorance.
Robertson is apparently not one of these, at least openly. His ploy is to pose as one of those "clever" theists who flatter their vanity by the pretense of debate with the atheist, and no doubt the scientist. It is a technique that gains the applause of a certain type of "wannabeliever" and is much less (though often still considerably) profitable than the fundy rabble-rouser, but it affords the practitioner additional protection from their own hypocrisy, since instead of denying the very existence of debate, they (falsely, and entirely so in Robertson's case) claim to have arrived at their conclusions based on some sort of evidence.
Robertson is, frankly, a rank amateur at this, and essentially finds himself in Miniver Cheevy's (did I spell that right? It's been years...) position. Like all of this breed (many obviously brilliant; others simply annoying braying asses) even a modesty perceptive person will see that all this cleverness is pre-Fall Humpty-Dumptyism: everything is as they SAY it is, and they are right because they SAY they are right.
Of course, many of Robertson's stripe would willingly call for the aid of the fundy element if they found themselves exposed (to themselves). Tolerance is something this sort of "believer" promotes only as long as they believe they call the shots.

97. Comment #6096 by Yorker on November 12, 2006 at 2:55 pm

Terri,

My experiences here and in the USA have convinced me of the impossibility of serious debate with god worshippers. A person sincerely willing to engage in debate must be prepared to change their mind when faced with unquestionable reason. I have yet to meet a single dogmatically committed religite with such a mindset. The goings-on here are a perfect example, - just a waste of time.

Religites mostly seem unaware of the simple fact that since they are making the claim, the onus is upon them to prove, or at least convince atheists of their thesis! When the day comes that one of them is prepared to admit they may be wrong about their god, then I will debate them, until then what is the point?

If you expect David to listen to reason and to renounce his god, I think you will be disappointed and I'll be confounded! Either god exists or he does not, that's all it is, the rest is superfluity. Arguments about evolution are pointless, evolution is a fact, you can't have an opinion about a fact! Two years ago, Dr. Jim Watson (of DNA fame) stated that we can now see human evolution at the gene level because of the discovery of fossil genes, that's the cruncher (if one were needed) that we are an evolved species.

Incidentally, a listening reporter put it to Jim that he was playing God; in his lovely engaging way Jim replied:

"Well, if I don't play God, who will?"

No, strongly committed godites will never listen to reason because they didn't get their belief through reason, it was drummed into them when children. They don't want to believe, they *need* to; rationality would take their lives away; it's not going to happen.

There are only two things we can do; let nature takes its course and allow religion to die a natural death, or as Dawkins says, prevent the indoctrination of children unable to defend themselves. That way, I think, religion would be gone within perhaps two generations.

98. Comment #6098 by Kate on November 12, 2006 at 3:10 pm

I have yet to hear what positive evidence there is for the postulate that there is a god.

Can someone fill me in?

99. Comment #6100 by Paul Creber on November 12, 2006 at 3:42 pm

Yorker:
I agree with almost everything you say. However, it is still important that we engage even the most dogmatic theist on a site such as this, if only for the reason that many others of a less entrenched position will be listening.

100. Comment #6116 by Paul on November 12, 2006 at 5:39 pm

Wow, this is an intelligent and well crafted view of RD's book. I can see that it really got to most readers of this site as well, seeing as it was posted 2 days ago and already has a comment pagination level of 5, and most of the comments are just stating that the writer of this entry is wrong and a dumb stoopid head.

I love it when things get stirred up. Please keep it up!
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