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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

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201. Comment #7531 by Chris on November 18, 2006 at 5:58 pm

David, I think you missed the point I was making in my posts, when I said that faith is belief that is disproportionate to evidence, my point was merely to say that this is obviously NOT the definition that theists are using. My post was an invitation for you to define what you meant by faith because it obviously differs from what I mean by it. Also note by definition originates from the dictionary so it is not unreasonable for me to use it. I addressed the matter of athieists setting up a straw man in my post and reasoned that the theist definition of faith is more likely to be 'belief in something which can not be proved'. This seems to be the definition you involk with the aeroplane example. I addressed this in my post.

Also with my comment about the dictionaries, this was a joke base on the fact that myself and another poster had simultaenously saught to clarify definitions, I was not suggesting that you actually needed a dictionary, it was just a poor joke. The point about definitions is that we are obviously talking about different things when we talk about faith so for dialogue to proceed we need to clarify what we mean.

202. Comment #7534 by Chris on November 18, 2006 at 6:08 pm

Actually, reading your post again, the way use faith in your example is not something that I would call faith at all (This is the point I was trying to make in 445). Its just rational belief (assuming your assessment of the evidence if accurate). Again it comes down to definition, I am not trying to set up a straw man here, Im just trying to understand where you are coming from.

Chris

203. Comment #7846 by Martin on November 19, 2006 at 4:18 pm

I'd really like to see Mr Roberston's evidence for God. I'm open to be convinced.

1. Independent verification
2. Reproducability
3. The only possible explination by a very high order of mangitude of probability.

The problem here again is with your basic definition. Why does evidence have to be reproducible? And why does it have to be independently verified? Who is independent? Is the evidence that I love my wife something that can only be real and true if it is 'independently verified?'?


If your "evidence" can be any old thing and we don't hold to any standards then anything you say can be held as evidence, making the evidence not worth the air the words are carried on.

As to evidence for you loving your wife? well.. for one I didn't know you had a wife and for all I know you don't love her.

Independent verification? They way you act towards your wife around other people. Everytime you and your wife appear in public or do something. While circumstancial it does count towards evidence. Science can't always observe an object directly and therefore have to rely on seeing how it intera cts with others.

Reproducable? We'll loving your wife is a single event, we would have to reproduce the event. Therefore we would have to establish that you can love and that what you and your wife share is sufficiently similar to be the same thing.

Not explainable by different means? I suspect Ted Haggard's wife is contemplating this question right now. Until recently I'm sure she felt certain there was on other possible reason.

The reason evidence must be verifiable and reproducable is that if it isn't then it's not evidence, because that's how evidence is defined. By your reasoning for your evidence the japanese(?) ex-scientist now in jail for faking his cold-fusion experiments should be receiving a noble prize for his scientific discovery; his paper certainly meets your evidence standards. He is a con-artist, so what does that make you?


And therein lies the problem. You are not prepared to move beyond your own understanding and want to reduce the world to it.


Oh I am prepared to move beyond my understanding. That's called learning. At the moment I'm learning quite a bit about your point of view, nonsensical as it is.

What you are asking is that I stop understanding and just accept that i'll never understand. The argument from incredulity.

204. Comment #7847 by Martin on November 19, 2006 at 4:21 pm

Oh... and just where is your evidence?

And you never did explain how you can be faithful to god if you rely on evidence, since evidence denies faith?

205. Comment #7873 by Fedler on November 19, 2006 at 6:13 pm

Re: Comment #7495 by David Robertson

"May I ask what evidence [of the existence of God] you refer to?"

"Sure. In summary – the creation, the very idea of God, human beings, love, joy, beauty, the concept of evil, morality, human history, the sense of the religious in all human beings, others experience, the Bible and personal experience."

Mr. Robertson, thank you for your replies. Again, it all comes back to definition. I don't feel the above things you mention prove the existence of a god, as I feel most of them are subject and could mean anything to anybody. It is, of course, near impossible to fully engage through an internet blog, so my reasons I'm sure will seem incredibly incomplete, but if I may....

"the creation.." - obviously highly debateable to many people, but I feel is more accurately explained through evolution,
"the very idea of God.." - I don't feel an idea proves the actual existence of anything. I have the idea of peace on earth, but it obviously doesn't exist.
"human beings.." - again, highly debateable (like creation), but I feel is more accurately explained through evolution,
"love, joy, beauty, the concept of evil, morality.." - I feel these are highly subjective and, broadly speaking, could mean to 'prove' anything,
"human history.." - proves human beings have a past, but not the existence of a god,
"the sense of the religious in all human beings.." - many people do have 'religious' experiences, but I don't feel they prove the existence of a god or that the experience was somehow given to us by a god,
"the Bible.." - I feel even among believers the Bible is considered partially accurate (at best) and mostly symbolic, but I don't feel it proves the existence of a god.
"personal experience." - subjective to the extreme and I feel it only proves we have experiences.

I'm a Christian (Roman Catholic) and I haven't committed to leaving my faith, yet, but I'm actively seeking to find some concrete reasons why I should stay with my faith. I still consider myself a spiritual person and I feel I can still experience beauty, joy, love, morality, etc., but my definition of evidence (via subjective personal experience) is changing to one that does not appear to be in agreement with a belief in a god.

Despite this, I don't feel one belief or disbelief is "more right" than the other, just different viewpoints.

Again, thank you for your time, effort, and consideration, but it appears my search will continue. Like you, I have a family I need to spend more time with and I've already spent too much time with this thread (I think my wife is beginning to doubt my sanity). Best of luck in the future!

206. Comment #7965 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 2:41 am

You say you wanted rationality? Then, what can be more rational than genius? I don't know of anything.:) So read on:

If you want evidence to read then check out THIS devastating essay of genius:
http://www.tektonics.org/lp/nowayjose.html

However if you want to see TRUE rationality in debate then check out this thread where I destroy my opponents' epistemic basis for genius with my genius:
http://www.songmeanings.net/thread.php?tid=41884&fid=9#41884

And if you want to hear some POWERFUL (and shocking) PREACHING of genius, then listen to this sermon here:
http://www.sermonaudio.com/sermoninfo.asp?currSection=sermonsspeaker&sermonID=52906154239

The Mighty One, God, the LORD,
speaks and summons the earth
from the rising of the sun to the place where it sets.
2 From Zion, perfect in beauty,
God shines forth.

3 Our God comes and will not be silent;
a fire devours before him,
and around him a tempest rages.

4 He summons the heavens above,
and the earth, that he may judge his people:

5 "Gather to me my consecrated ones,
who made a covenant with me by sacrifice."

6 And the heavens proclaim his righteousness,
for God himself is judge.
Selah

7 "Hear, O my people, and I will speak,
O Israel, and I will testify against you:
I am God, your God.

8 I do not rebuke you for your sacrifices
or your burnt offerings, which are ever before me.

9 I have no need of a bull from your stall
or of goats from your pens,

10 for every animal of the forest is mine,
and the cattle on a thousand hills.

11 I know every bird in the mountains,
and the creatures of the field are mine.

12 If I were hungry I would not tell you,
for the world is mine, and all that is in it.

13 Do I eat the flesh of bulls
or drink the blood of goats?

14 Sacrifice thank offerings to God,
fulfill your vows to the Most High,

15 and call upon me in the day of trouble;
I will deliver you, and you will honor me."

16 But to the wicked, God says:
"What right have you to recite my laws
or take my covenant on your lips?

17 You hate my instruction
and cast my words behind you.

18 When you see a thief, you join with him;
you throw in your lot with adulterers.

19 You use your mouth for evil
and harness your tongue to deceit.

20 You speak continually against your brother
and slander your own mother's son.

21 These things you have done and I kept silent;
you thought I was altogether like you.
But I will rebuke you
and accuse you to your face.

22 "Consider this, you who forget God,
or I will tear you to pieces, with none to rescue:

23 He who sacrifices thank offerings honors me,
and he prepares the way
so that I may show him the salvation of God."

207. Comment #7968 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 2:46 am

Oh, and by the way you WILL DEFINITELY GO TO HELL IF YOU'RE NOT A CHRISTIAN

208. Comment #8042 by Chris on November 20, 2006 at 8:59 am

Looking further into the issue of defining faith, I thought the fairest thing to do was to use a biblical definition, that way we can be sure that Christian theists and atheists are talking about the same thing.

"faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen." Hebrews 11:1.

And

extraordinary confidence in God that is unshakable by situations, pain, apparent failure, or ridicule. Acts 17:11

So the bible actually agrees with my earlier assertion that faith was belief that is disproportionate to evidence, so please lets not have any more of
"Your definition of faith here is ludicrous and not supported by any single religion I know of. But of course it suits you to use faith in one way and then you are able to be derogatory about people who claim to have faith. A biblical definition of faith is trust on the basis of the evidence and knowledge that we have."

because this seems to be at odds with the texts I have seen. Im sure as a biblical scholar you have other quotes which support your definition, if so, please provide them – I do not have encyclopaedic biblical knowledge. Even if you do have other quotes, it is clear my definition is not ludicrous as it is supported by the bible.

One thing I would like to make clear is that belief that an aeroplane has been filled with fuel is not a matter of faith under any definition that I would use. This is a logical deduction based on some clear observations – that planes running out of fuel are a statistically rare event, that the economic implications for an airline that allowed a plane to run out of fuel are immense and that extensive health and safety laws exist surrounding health a safety in aviation. This means that the value of the remaining years of my life multiplied by the statistical probability that someone has forgotten to fill the tank is less than the cost of physically going and checking the tank. Therefore I do not check the tank.

Likewise faith is not required to believe in aerodynamics, you have made enough empirical observations to estimate the statistics involved. Faith is unshakable, rational conclusions are not so if a sudden spate of plane bombings occurred (say one major UK flights a day was blown up over a period of a month) a person who had a rational take on plane safety might not fly but a person who had faith that planes were safe would fly anyway because their belief is 'unshakable'.

None of this means that God does not exist, of course. But its useful to define the terms.

209. Comment #8356 by Martin on November 21, 2006 at 2:36 am

Well, it seems we are at an impasse.

What you define as evidence, I don't.
What you define as faith, I don't.

Since we cannot even establish a consistent starting point we will never agree, simply because you see the universe in your way, and I see it in mine.

My experience has shown me that the evidence we see is shaped by our beliefs, one of the reasons lots of bad decisions are made. We see evidence and interpret it in a certain way based on our own beliefs; in this instance I am talking about say what a military commander might believe about his current situation.

You believe in some form of deity, I don't, as a result both of us will see the evidence the way we want it.

That I see the evidence more rationally, is, for me at least, as given.

Arrogant as it might seem, the vast majority of intelligent and educated people agree with me, and if you need evidence of that: In 1986, Burnham P. Beckwith, wrote on "The Effect of Intelligence on Religious Faith" for the skeptic magazine Free inquiry. While I grant you that he can be considered to be pushing his theme, the fact that of the 43 studies he reviewed only 4 showed a positive correlation between religiosity and intelligence.

More recent studies by gallop and others have supported this conclusion.

It's only fair to note that education and religiosity not correlated significantly amongst "social" scientists. I do believe historians fall into that category.

So, maybe you do know something the rest of the scientific world doesn't. Or one could argue that social science deals with people, and people are, for the most part, irrational, therefore social scientists must be able to think irrationally to understand the people they are studying. Does that make them more inclined to irrationality in their own right? Maybe a study is in order. Ironically, it would have to be carried out by social scientists.

210. Comment #8381 by Martin on November 21, 2006 at 4:50 am

Using sceptics books is a perfectly valid scientific approach.

1) Create your hypothesis (The Bible is historically accurate)
2) Falsify it (The bible is historically inaccurate)
3) Find proof of 2.

If you find proof of 2) (just a single one) then 1) cannot be true, and you need to change your hypothesis.

The simplest proof that the bible is historically inaccurate is that the gospels cannot even agree on the genealogy of Jesus. If the bible were historically accurate, then Jesus' family history would be accurate. The bible is historically inaccurate. QED.

Once you have established that just one part of the bible is inaccurate all of it becomes suspect.

The big difference between science and theism is that if someone goes to a scientist: "here's proof you are wrong" the scientist goes "damn... back to the drawing board" and tries to come up with a theory that also explains this new evidence.

If someone points out that the bible is wrong, this can mean only one of two things. The bible isn't the word of god, or god is fallible.

The second point doesn't fit too well with Christian religion, as it invalidates most of what Christianity believes.

If the bible isn't the word of god, then what is the point of it? We've already established that it's suspect as a history, and it's now not the word of god, therefore it must be fiction.

Oh.. and trying to excuse the error as mis-type or a copying error or some king manipulating the words... well, all of that just lends more weight to my argument that the bible is worthless as the source of anything other than entertainment.

211. Comment #8392 by Chris on November 21, 2006 at 5:45 am

David,

Fair enough, I should have checked the context of those passages ( I got them from a Christian website that was defining faith) that was sloppy of me.

Anyhow, either faith is belief that is proportional to evidence or its disproportionate. If it's proportionate then faith is really just plain old belief (in a religious context). You have indicated it is the latter so now we have established that definition we can use it.

If it the latter, then at least we should be able to agree that faith, in itself, is not really important, it is just a matter of assessing evidence. Having faith is, believing that God exists in the same way that I believe my computer monitor exists. But now faith has no real meaning or significance at all (other than it applies to religion rather than computer monitors).

Im rather confused now as this implies that God is a testable scientific hypothesis which has been proved demonstrably to your satisfaction and nothing more? I can respect that, proportionate belief is sensible, I wonder at what significance levels you can accept this hypothesis?

Or is their more to faith than this, I always thought that there was more but, as in all things, I could be wrong.

I think our conversation has lead to the point that belief in God is about evidence rather than (blind) faith and that you feel the evidence supports the God hypothesis and I don't. That's another debate, Martin has addressed it, (469) while my own examinations of the Bible have found it to be inconsistent with itself (both factually and logically) and with other external sources including my own observations of the world. I don't believe for a moment that there is common ground between us on that issue so I will leave it there. Thanks for replying to all my posts.

212. Comment #8409 by Ewan D on November 21, 2006 at 6:44 am

Evangelicals like David are keen on describing conversion experiences and their lasting inner sense of peace and contact with the Holy Spirit.

The skeptic would notice that this phenomenon bears some of the hallmarks of romantic infatuation, including the cruel trick of manifestly compromised reason* in direct proportion to the heightened subjective sense of truth and clear sightedness.

Meditating on love and asking Jesus to enter your life is an invitation to delusion which acts on highly impressionable, pre-intellectual emotional instincts, evolutionarily wired for familial bonding. Where straight-forward stupidity isn't a viable explanation for delusion (is it ever?) emotion, loosley speaking, can be identified as the brain's Achilles heel.

* The alarm bells should sound when you catch yourself saying that the more you look at it, the more inerrant the Bible (Koran, whatever) becomes. All that you're noticing (with the makings of useful insight) is the lengths our minds can go to to maintain equilibrium through ad-hoc story-telling and rationalising.

213. Comment #8425 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 7:34 am

astralcat,

Evolution is well supported. Mainstream science accepts common ancestry, not just because of the fossil evidence but because it explains so much in biology.

Without presupposing one model of a family tree to understand the natural order of living organisms it is possible to map out relationships between them with regard to completely different systems. For example, take comparative anatomy - Darwin's primary evidence. Map out the names of all living things placing those with the most similar anatomical features closest to each other, working from the simplest to the most complex in a nested heirarchy. Then take biochemical relationships and draw another diagram, again placing organisms that are most biochemically similar closest together. Do the same with embryology - another independent discipline. All these lines of evidence reveal identical nested heirarchies supporting the theory of common ancestry. Don't presume that these systems have been distorted to fit a handed-down Darwinian 'family tree' model. That simply isn't how science works.

214. Comment #8428 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 7:38 am

And all organisms are in transition - every fossil is a transitional specimen.

215. Comment #8445 by Ewan D on November 21, 2006 at 8:51 am

astralcat

'Nested hierarchy is contrary to what one would expect if evolution is true. Evolution requires sequential relations but, of course, this is not what one finds.'

On the contrary, one finds both. A complete nested heirarchy would reveal the sequential steps with crystal clarity, but the fact of the unbroken family lineages would not remove the necessary convention of nested segregation of non-interbreeding groups - ie at the species level.

216. Comment #8446 by Ewan D on November 21, 2006 at 9:04 am

aristocat,

Replace the names of organisms on your nested family tree with their genetic sequences, and start to understand how a conscious genetic engineer or the 'blind watchmaker' of mutation/natural selection can manipulate the sequences to create whole new organisms.

217. Comment #8491 by Roll on November 21, 2006 at 11:45 am

Heaven.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heaven

Well, that's clear then.

218. Comment #8776 by Martin on November 22, 2006 at 8:46 am


You obviously have no knowledge of how genalogies were written, or that Luke was an historian who almost certainly had access to the same sources as Matthew


An arrogant presumption on your part. You obviously never learnt to spell, since you spelt genealogies wrong. I can be just as arrogantly superior as you... that doesn't get us anywhere.

And while the subject matter might be "boring" for someone who has already dismissed it out of hand, that doesn't make it wrong.

You assert that Luke was an historian with access to the same sources as Mark.

You are an historian. If you write a book on a character in history, then you, as a conscientious researcher examine all the evidence you can find and when you write your book you use the evidence which you most consider to be accurate. I'll presuppose that you have integrity and wouldn't want to push your own agenda. Certainly this is what I was taught in history when I was 13 and writing my own history essays.

Explain then why Luke, as an acknowledged colleague of yours, with access to Matthew's published works as you claim, decided to not use Matthew's data?

The simple answer is that Luke didn't agree with Matthew, had sources he considered better, or didn't bother to do any actual research and just made it up.

Can one be a good historian if one accepts two totally different sets of data as both being a valid description of the same thing?

People may well have different interpretations of what a piece of data or an event means, but that doesn't change the data or the event.

If Luke and Matthew disagreed about why Jesus crossed a particular bridge, e.g. he was leading a crowd, or the crowd pushed him, then you could just about understand that, but the fact remains that he did cross the bridge. (Ignoring that the bible is the "word of god" and hence any discrepancy is an indication of the fallibility of this deity).

Just as the it appears that Joseph was Jesus' father (leaving aside the fact that if we allow the immaculate conception then God is Jesus' father and there's no way Jesus could be descended from David, certainly not on the male side), surely Luke and Matthew could at least agree on Joseph's father? Do they?

As far as I can tell religious apologists just resort to "god works in mysterious ways" when they are confronted with the obvious discrepancies.

219. Comment #8777 by Martin on November 22, 2006 at 8:48 am

errata: the first Mark should of course read Matthew.

220. Comment #8784 by Chris on November 22, 2006 at 9:10 am

David,

Yes this is what I was trying to get at, my use of the word 'proved' was misleading (sloppy again, will try to do better!), of course, I also realise nothing can be proved or disproved. What I meant by 'proved demonstrably to your satisfaction' was that the evidence allowed you to except the God hypothesis to a level of confidence to which you are satisfied.

I am still struggling to pin down what you mean by faith (which is probably very frustrating for you). You strongly rejected the idea that it was belief disproportionate to faith but you don't seem happy with the only other alternative either. You say trust and belief based on evidence, but that says nothing of proportionality or statistics. You seem to think that I am dealing in absolutes but I am not, only different possible realities with different probabilities attached to them – this is why I am trying to get to the centre of what 'faith' means to you. This is the heart of the atheist position (as I see it), yes there could be a God but let's try and assign likelihood to that point of view rather than allow it some kind of protection on the grounds that it is an ultimately unknowable question.

Ultimately all you and I are doing is assigning a probability to the God hypothesis, surely it is nothing more than that?

"I certainly think it is very foolish to reduce the universe to that which only we can understand and prove"

Agree 100% and I appreciate that in likelihood 'the universe is stranger than we can suppose' but evidence should inform belief about the universe, as long as one is prepared to accept one could be wrong, then that is fine (and yes I do accept I could be wrong about any of the worlds religions). What seems even more foolish to me is to reduce the universe to what was understood by people 2000+++ years ago who didn't have access to the information we have today, yet (presumably) had the same desire to find answers to ultimate questions. We both know people in those era's were prone to developing false scripture and gods because we both agree that nearly all of the religion and associated scripture of this period of humanity was false (the only difference is I think exactly all of it was false).

Happy to keep my mind open to all the infinite possibilities about the nature of the universe, it's just that the probability of your one being correct seems vanishingly small to me. If new evidence were to come to light I would change my view.

Chris

PS you type very well considering your lack of arms – well done!

221. Comment #8988 by Martin on November 23, 2006 at 4:41 am

David,

Billy already expressed my response, and probably more clearly than I could have.

The problem with your answer is that it throws up more discrepancies.

If we assume that you are right and that Luke's is Mary's genealogy and the other is Joseph's then Matthew, who insists on using Joseph's line of descent, clearly invalidates the theory of the virgin birth by explicitly claiming Jesus' line of descent from David through the male line. Either he was born of a virgin, and hence fulfilled one prophecy, or he was descended from David through Joseph and fulfilled the other prophecy. He can't do both.

Regardless, the two accounts cannot be reconciled without accepting that there is an error in the bible, and where there is one error there are likely to be more, hence the entire bible becomes suspect and cannot be used as a reliable source of anything until clearly verified. With a text that's variously 4000 odd years old that will prove rather difficult.

I wonder if you've read Robin Lane Fox's book on the bible: The Unauthorized Version: Truth and Fiction in the Bible. It's certainly on my reading list.

You'll not object to me giving greater weight to his words than yours I hope, after-all, while your day job is religion, his life-long day-job is ancient history, and he is extremely well respected in that field.

222. Comment #9001 by oj on November 23, 2006 at 6:01 am

David Robertson you said:
One thing that really annoys some atheists is when Christians promise to pray for them.

It reminded me of an experience I had a long time ago. I attended a meeting held by some young "newborne" Christians here in Norway. I asked them if they had read the famous lecture that a Norwegian poet held in 1931 called "Kristendommen, den tiende landeplage" (Christendom the 10th plague).

Non of them knew about this and that the poet was accused for blasphemi. (He was later acquitted. He did his own defence).

So I quoted shortly from the beginning of his lecture where he said that since we were created in God's image, maybe he was like us and even had sexual organs?

They were shocked by this quote. They told me that they would pray for me. Later, I was told that several of them had done this at a meeting. Prayed for me! (Btw, I never felt anything of this..)

Was I annoyed?

No, but I felt sorry for them.

Regards,

Ole

223. Comment #9005 by Martin on November 23, 2006 at 6:25 am

People can pray for me all they want. I consider it no different than someone wishing me good luck.

I pity them though for their strange need to express their concern or best wishes for me through the auspices of some mystical entity. Seems like an inferiority complex to me. "I'm not worthy of wishing you luck, so I'll ask the super fairy in the sky, she'll wish you luck instead."

Mostly I take it in the spirit intended, and laugh quietly to myself as I would at someone who handed me a goat's foot, a 4 leaf clover for the same reason.

I'm a bit disappointed that no one has sacrificed a goat for me yet though... :( Surely there must be some Christians out there that have actually read the bible :P

224. Comment #9012 by Martin on November 23, 2006 at 7:38 am

Most of your new article is the same old misrepresentation and misunderstanding as the previous articles.

The section where you talk about the feminists and their reaction to you is one where I think there is a level of truth.

I suspect you'll find that most of the more vocal people in any group are the ones who have had a profound experience in relation to that movement, be it a hallucination that confirms god, or abuse by men/church/rabid-rabbits, something I'd consider more human nature than anything else, and as such it's use in your article is an attempt to twist a feature just as common (probably more so, since there are more religions) in religion to suit your message.

The big difference between religion and atheism is that atheism is basically about tolerance, while religion is basically about intolerance.

Atheism: I don't care what you do as long as it doesn't hurt me or others. If you can show me what I believe is wrong, I'll change my view.

Religion: Do as I say, anyone that doesn't is bad. Nothing you say will change my mind.

Which leads onto your comment about "pure". Just the name is an implication that anyone that doesn't agree is "impure", which in common parlance means bad.

Religion, and "pure" by the sounds of it, is all about exclusion. Anyone that doesn't match their/your belief is not included in your club, at best they are tolerated, which is certainly not the same as being accepted, because by it's nature, religion has to be right.

After the civil war in the US, blacks were still considered to be inferior, the difference is that they were now tolerated as probably being human. That's why, in my view, the hatred and violence still goes on, because too many people in the US (and other places in the world) haven't managed to accept blacks as equals yet, an attitude encouraged by brainwashing of children that's as insidious as that of religion, and reinforced in society by biased and prominent crime statistics in newspapers (as opposed to sermons and thought for the day) that paint far too simplistic a picture of the actual situation. But racial inequality, despite my belief that religion is largely to blame for a lot of it's roots, is not really on topic for this thread.

Back on topic; I'd give a lot more weight to your claim that "pure" isn't homophobic if what they taught was, "people may live as they chose and do what is right for them and that is good, we believe that marriage is the best way though."

Instead it seems their message is: "Marriage is the only true way". Which is a very black and white message and basically religious dogma.

Religion (well almost all of them) don't preach tolerance, they preach inclusion. Join us, or go to hell (literally).

225. Comment #9037 by Ewan D on November 23, 2006 at 9:46 am

David,

'They have had a bad experience of religion in some form or other; therefore they project that on to every religion or religious person.'

Now who's the amateur psychologist? I'll speak for myself. For years I was a member of a Scottish Episcopalian choir - a continuous highpoint of my youth with many good friends and role models. Those experiences were deeply enriching - primarily because of the music and atmosphere - and I have no grudges or scores to settle.

On top of that I've had intimate involvement with the Bretheren community here in SW Scotland, and was shown warmth and hospitality, and certainly nothing less than politeness - a witty and creative bunch, particularly at ease among their kin.

I was commissioned to paint the portrait of a recent Church of Scotland Moderator, a quiet man with intellect to spare - true theological elite, and disarmingly friendly.

David Robertson too - splendid chap!

For all those positive associations, what has always been conspicuously absent is evidence to support the concept of revealed knowledge. I've never been shown a quotation or heard a statement which was plausibly revealed from a more knowledgeable source than humanity.

Deny this if you will, but if it's not an unfair demand, avoid circular reasoning.

The lack of historical evidence doesn't perturb believers who have daily experience of God working in their lives, whispering divine wisdom to them all the time. But why does his contribution remain invisible to outsiders - indistinguishable from the believer working alone, with normal human faculties and information? (Acting at best, with conviction.)

The 'imaginary friend' hypothesis is of course unflattering for the believer, but it is a serious one, and eminently falsifiable. I postulate it, not as a put-down, but on the basis of honest introspective analysis of my own imaginative experience. We can be deluded, and under certian circumstances the more intellect we can bring to bear (or seductive eloquence), the more we'll succeed in keeping ourselves that way.

THE qualitative difference between the belief in God and the absense of a belief in God - a reason why one is more likely to be delusory than the other, is the explicit emotional vulnerability in the former, and potential emotional neutrality of the latter. I say potential because it'll differ from individual to individual (of course certain Christians think all atheists have their beloved lives of immorality at stake, but that's just ignorance.) I for one search myself and find I have nothing to lose by discovering God. After all I could present the evidence to my non-believing chums, so I wouldn't even lose them.

226. Comment #9042 by Ewan D on November 23, 2006 at 9:56 am

Gee that sounded stilted. At least I won't be accused of seductive eloquence.

Excellent previous post by Martin though.

227. Comment #9191 by Martin on November 24, 2006 at 5:12 am

Have we chased him away?

Hmm.. .the timestamps on this site are irritating me... wonder what time zone they are in.

228. Comment #9193 by Martin on November 24, 2006 at 5:14 am

Ok... Pacific time... so UTC/GMT -8 hours.

I didn't think I was up at 0400h :P

229. Comment #9194 by Chris on November 24, 2006 at 5:15 am

I expect that the running David has other responcibilities besides conducting theological debates with dozens of posters on multiple forums. Im sure he will be back.

230. Comment #9208 by Paul Creber on November 24, 2006 at 6:04 am

Sorry, typo on my own name!

231. Comment #9283 by Paul Creber on November 24, 2006 at 10:39 am

Very drole. Might I soon expect an over-arm delivery?

232. Comment #9561 by Anonymous on November 25, 2006 at 5:45 am

Robert, when confronting liberal pemissiveness you ask '- Trouble is who defines 'hurt'?'

Good point. No secular consensus can be enough. When defining 'hurt' our thoughts must turn from this life to posthumous eternity - get it wrong and we're talking about trillions and trillions of years of unimaginable torment as a mere introduction to the Lord's justice.

You really swallow this. Le con!

Read Godless Morality by Holloway.

233. Comment #9613 by Martin on November 25, 2006 at 9:09 am


Nope. Wrong. Atheism is about exclusion. Because you all 'know' you are right. Biblical Christianity is about acceptance of every single human being as a human being. That is why the fight against racism was lead by religious people and it is also why one the biggest obstacles they had to face was social Darwinianism which most certainly does not teach the equality of all human beings.


Atheism is not about anything... Atheism is the default state. I'd argue that everyone is born atheist, i'd give as proof that children need to be told about god and isolated communites without contact with christian brainwashers don't believe in your god at all, so it's certainly not an intrinsic human condition. The belief in the supernatural might be though, go luck up cargo cults and all the various other things that spring up.

Atheism is the absence of belief. You don't call an empty lot exclusionist because there's nothing built on it. The people on these boards just refuse to give the church planning permission for their cathedral because they don't make a good case. Either that.. or they'd demolished the hypothetical cathedral because it was wasting space they could use for better things.

The problem is... when religion starts building on the lot there's mighty little space for anything else, it tries to dictate what can be built there.

Christianity is about acceptance of every single human being as a human being.

Sophistry. You forgot to add the qualifier that makes the sentence true... Christianity is about acceptance of every single human being as a human being as long as they are christian.! Religion is the exclusive club.

Virgin birth – but it is just as wrong to state that it did not happen because it COULD not happen.

Ha ha ha... we resort to the god-botherer's favourite misrepresentation. I can prove mathematically that when I shoot a ball through a goal the ball could defract and head off at 45 degress to the way it entered. That doesn't make it likely.

It took thousands of years of advancement in science for us to be able to use IVF treatment and allow a woman to give birth. I'd still argue that it's not a virgin birth because it still needs sperm from somewhere.

So yes, the virgin birth could happen, but the chance of it being god that did it was almost nil.

Instead.. how about these much more likely explanations:

First how do you prove virginity?

1) The woman says so.
2) Her family say so.
3) You examine the hymen to see if it's torn.

So.. what are the possibilities then:

1) She's lying. Pre-maritial sex is frowned upon, so telling the truth is not a good idea. Or maybe she's an attention seeker. Maybe mary was sleeping with the milkman and didn't want joseph to know.

2) They are lying. It was much easier to marry off a virgin "unspoilt" woman in those days than one who wasn't. Pre-marital sex having been "banned" by religion.

3) There have been enough documented cases of a hymen not tearing during intercourse to indicate that it's possible to have sex without it tearing.

4) Joseph and mary could have had a wild petting session and sperm could have slipped into the vagina and inseminated her, cases are known and sperm can survive for quite a while. No inter-course happend, but she's still pregnant. Given the amount of wive's tales people believe even today, like you can't get pregnant the first time, or you can't if you do it doggy.. or whatever.. it's not hard to see that Joseph might say "but we didn't have intercourse.. who have you been sleeping with?". Frightened mary, scared of being stonned to death for adultary says "no one, it was god!". She might as well have said the tooth fairy or satan.

Now an honest man would have to admit that all of those have a much higher probability of being true than the evasive "god did it" version. If i have the choice between half a dozen likely explinations and one very unlikely explination I'd choose the likely one, because that's what sane people do.

234. Comment #9704 by Paul Creber on November 25, 2006 at 3:44 pm

David Robertson wrote: "I am not sure they [other faiths] would claim to be trust based upon evidence. If they do I would suggest that, like Christianity, their claims are open to scrutiny and question..."

Firstly, your definition of faith appears to be confined only to Christian faith, or maybe - perish the thought - only David Robertson's faith.
Secondly, scrutiny and questioning is precisely what I have been exercising apropos claims of a virgin birth. Thus far, I have discerned precious litle "openness" on your part.
Would I be right in thinking that, in this regard at least, Christianity regards scrutiny as an unwelcome embarrassment?

235. Comment #10101 by Chris on November 27, 2006 at 4:45 am

You say that atheists have a whole set of beliefs they can not prove such as a belief that there is no God. Of course this is true, nothing can be proved, I think we can safely say that most here understand this point! But let us consider what 'belief' actually is (this is why I was trying to get at your faith definition).

Belief (in my opinion) is a statement of statistical probability. When I say I do not believe in Santa Claus, I am saying that the statistical probability of Santa existing is extremely low. I cannot disprove him but I can assign a probability based on the information that I have about him. The more I research the matter, the more able I am to define that statistical probability. I say I only believe in the material world, I am saying I see only evidence for the material world. There could be other realms of reality, but the probability that they have any meaningful influence on my life seems very low.

The atheist position is that the statistical probability of a personal God is extremely low. This is what it means to not believe in something, this must surely be the nature of belief and it reflects that knowledge has no impact on truth, we can just make observations and adjust our beliefs accordingly.

Many of us have researched the claims of religions and have found no evidence to support them. We also see that many who believe these claims do so with little effort at looking into the evidence and that many simply have belief as a default position based on believing that the information fed to them from their teachers and religious leaders is true.

Thus atheists tend to run arguments designed to encourage theists to consider what proofs underlie their faith because we think that if they see the same evidence as us, they will have no choice but to come to similar conclusions. This is why we repeatedly run the spaghetti monster argument. It is an effective metaphor to challenge people's blind reliance on the teachings of their priest and or parents.

You are a different creature because you say you have looked at the evidence, and still remain a theist. This seems strange to many of us, we cannot really understand how you have reached your conclusion (That being that the probability that the Christian story is true is extremely high). I presume you struggle to see how we can come to an opposite viewpoint.

It is natural for both sides to assume that the other side is being influenced by a factor other than evidence because otherwise it is hard to explain how two people can look at the same data and draw such radically different conclusions. The usual atheist explanation is that some form of brain washing must have taken place, installing a belief which is disproportionate to the evidence.

This viewpoint is supported by observing the methods used to encourage religious belief, through churches, schools and parental guidance. It can be clearly demonstrated that such teaching methods encourage belief in religion without relation to the underlying truth of this religion. Note the tendency of children living in Muslim countries to adopt Muslim beliefs which we both agree are wrong.

In conclusion, belief in God is not an absolute issue; there is a sliding scale of belief from total acceptance and total rejection (Dawkins 1-7 scale for example). Everyone will vary where they are on this scale (I don't like the 1-7 scale I prefer a sliding probability scale placing things based on likelihood but it amounts to the same thing) according to the evidence they have seen and their interpretation of it.

That the theist and the atheist take such radically different positions is not likely due explained by a normal distribution of error but is almost certainly due to some irrational factor influencing one or both of these groups. I can see such a factor acting on the theist (influence of culture and church), and so (presumably) can you, insofar as this factor explains belief in false religions. You state repeatedly that such a factor also acts on the atheist, in some cases this is probably true, but I think in the most part it is not. It seems that most atheists' belief is 'in spite of' rather than 'because of' the indoctrination they receive.

You can continue to trot out the argument that atheists are irrational and adopt a blind faith position, but while this is undoubtedly true in some cases, it is clearly far more true among theists. Nonetheless I wished to make the point about the statistical nature of belief because your articles to Dawkins and your writing here have suggested to me that you do not see things this way.

Chris

236. Comment #10142 by Paul Creber on November 27, 2006 at 7:04 am

David Robertson wrote: "Real questions, and open minds are always welcome."

Here's a real question from an open mind: "What is your evidence for the virgin birth?"

237. Comment #10150 by Anonymous on November 27, 2006 at 7:30 am

"As a Christian I believe that every human being is created in the image of God. I do not believe that any one race is inherently superior to another or better evolved."


Don't you mean evolved? Deformity is better explained by evolutionary theories. Otherwise, god is a bastard and just makes some people with disabilities for the hell of it.

238. Comment #10160 by Martin on November 27, 2006 at 8:01 am

"Atheism is not about anything"

I think there is a sense in which we could agree on that one!


Yes, and let's remember that the introduction of the number 0 a mere few centuries ago (At least in Christian dominated Europe) revolutionised maths and consequentially science as a whole.

Just remember that the last time the Church had the last say in Europe is the time we call The Dark Ages. Five hundred years of misery, witch-hunts inquisitions, crusades and almost zero scientific advancement. That is the world you theists aspire to, even if you don't realise it yourself. 500 years of answering "God did it" to every unexplained phenomena.


Now what is your empirical evidence for suggesting that atheism is the default state? It seems to me that the evidence from every human society is precisely the opposite. Atheism is something that has to be taught and indoctrinated into people. I don't think I have met anyone who was born an atheist.

I certainly haven't met anyone who was born a Christian. I am certain you weren't born a Christian. Your earliest memories are about Christ though.. and why not.. your mum told you about him while you were a still a baby... you went to church only a few months old to have some old fart try to drown you... Christ has been part of your life because of your parents and surroundings. You were brainwashed, lovingly, caringly with teh best instentions, but you were brainwashed all the same, indoctrination. If you'd grown up isolated and alone.. you'd not be a christian. You might well believe that God was the entity that lit your isolation booth and provided the food.

You also completely ignored my qualifier, so much so that you left it out of your reply. I claimed that the belief in the supernatural might come naturally. And that would certainly explain why there are so many religions. Everyone is born an atheist, but with the natural tendency to the belief in the supernatural and it is nurture that gives that tendency room to unfold, be it Christianity, Hinduism, Islam or cargo cults. How else do you explain so many religions all claiming to be right?

Only your arrogant presumption makes you believe that your god is the correct one. Have you read the so-called holy books of all the other religions? Have you evaluated all their evidence, made sure that their evidence isn't better than the evidence for your super fairy? If you haven't how can you be sure... except by "feelings"? I have it easier. I've shaken off my belief in the supernatural and can therefore rule out all those super-cctv cameras in the sky or wherever.

Because all the arguements for god, regardless of the religion tend to follow the same pattern.

1) Your parents believed it
2) It says so in a book
3) You can never see/hear/touch/interact with the deity.


A recent study on the rise of religion in Europe actually made the point that atheism and secularism can only survive as it makes converts from the religious.


Fascinating. Of course, most atheists and agnostics I know are atheists as far back as they can remember. My parents tried to teach me religion and I went to a Christian school for 5 years (chapel every day) and I'd say I'm atheist despite religions best efforts to brainwash me, and most atheists I know are the same.

The only thing I enjoyed was some of the music. Handel's Messiah is an excellent piece. Of course inspiration music has been used throughout the ages to compel, encourage and enthral, Hitler loved inspirational music to rally his crowds. Doesn't mean the music isn't beautiful or wonderful though, after all... it was meant to be, depiste it's intended purpose.

The most vocal atheists (other than Dawkins et al) are the former devout theists. Mostly because they've realised just how much of their lives and money was wasted following a lie, and they want to spare others the same fate.


"Atheism is the absence of belief."

Nope. Atheists have a whole set of beliefs which they cannot prove. The belief that there is only the material. The belief that there is no God.


You are stamping your frame of reference on something you obviously don't understand. You are so blinded by your belief you cannot imagine how easy it is not to believe. Shame really, you are missing out on so much.


Martin once again you are just stating caricatures and lies. Let me make it quite simple for you. As a Christian I believe that every human being is created in the image of God. I do not believe that any one race is inherently superior to another or better evolved. Therefore I am obligated to treat every human being with dignity and respect – irresepective of what they belief. In that sense Christianity is far more egalitarian than the social darwianism that Darwinism would logically demand.


The most important phrase in your reply is "I do not believe...". But we are not talking about you. I can accept that you are tolerant, understanding and don't discriminate. The problem is that 90% of your theist fellows aren't. Your views are probably a lot closer to the humanist world view than most of your fellow god-botherers. How many countries and societies are currently at war because of their view of god is not quite the same as their neighbours? Ireland, Iran, Turkey/N.Iraq, Iraq, Christan West vs Muslim East, Rowanda, Yugoslavia. All those conflicts exist because people are lumped into groups created by their religions.

The only way we will ever get world peace is by eliminating religion as a power entirely. Of course in theory a single religion could do the same thing, but it's been trying that for thousands of years mostly by use of the sword, but it can't even keep it's own house in order, after all, why are there so many Christian sects? Catholic, Protestant, Anglican, Greek Orthodox to name but the most prominent.


"So yes, the virgin birth could happen, but the chance of it being god that did it was almost nil."
Now you are getting nearer the question. It is not whether the Virgin birth could happen (which you allow for) but whether it did.


Yes... and all the evidence i.e. human biology, human nature, human failing, psychological knowledge, societal knowledge etc clearly indicate that God wasn't involved. Given what we know of the scientific knowledge of the time (mostly thanks to the greeks, romans and egyptions, none of whom were corrupted by your god at the time and who actually kept proper records) it is much more likely for the people at the time to believe some wonder fairy did it than to see the other possibilities. The fact that you would willingly lower yourself to their level of understanding so that you might share their misguided beliefs is beyond any rational person's comprehension, and certainly beyond mine.

I see it this way.

You are standing on the side of a fast moving road (where the drivers cannot see you), trying to get to the other side. Your fastest course of action is to move to the traffic lights and cross there. You have a 99% chance of surviving. You could just rush across the road dodging cars and let's call that an 75% chance of survival. You could just run across the road at full tilt, and hope no one hits you... 10% chance of surving.

Religion sees all these options... then chooses to blind-fold itself and walk slowly across the road, because a 2000 year old book said it was the way to do it.

Why? Why do theists disregard all the evidence and fasten their views on the one probability that has the absolute lowest chance of being right? I just don't understand it. Maybe I never will. The more you try to defend your outrageous position though the more I fail to understand you.

239. Comment #10459 by Chris on November 28, 2006 at 6:37 am

Just a couple of points about the evil of atheist states, I think it is fundamentally true that any government that seeks to control beliefs of its citizens is one that I would not support whether it is atheist, communist, Muslim, Christian, etc. I

Indeed the only conceivable reason for banning a particular belief (that I can see) is that one is trying to shove a totally unpleasant idea down people's throats. I do not want to see religion banned; I see that as an absolutely appalling outcome.

But I am an atheist and I think that a secular humanist society is preferable basis to anything else I can think of because it contains no barriers (such as denial of rights to certain groups, opposition to certain aspects of scientific research and medical technology, and the justification for war) to pursuing outcomes that achieve maximum human benefit. Such a system should only be in place because it is the democratic will of society.

If secular humanism is unsuccessful in achieving the goals of promoting freedom and happiness, then under a democratic system it should rightfully be displaced by something that does the job better. I can not think of any societies where secular humanism has been the democratically chosen system of government and basis for society, the closest thing I can think of is the early United States, but as Im not an historian so I could be wrong about that..

I would like to see atheist humanists obtain a democratic majority in a major western country and form a specifically secular humanist government that does nothing to directly subjugate religion but promotes a separation of religion from all state run activities, in particular education and government – that is, on the governments watch, there is no religion of any kind. I am mostly a libertarian and would advocate freedom of religion and freedom from religion.

I think this is what other atheists want too; I think it is what Dawkins want. I think we should not imagine that we are seeking to round up the theists and put them in concentration camps, I want theists to choose to be atheists, if they do not, then I view that as a pity but so be it. If we can not achieve a democratic majority, then we have failed. We will also have failed if we get a majority and things get no better, which is also a possibility.

I do not know that it is possible to achieve this and I do not know for certain if it will work if we do, but I think it worth a try because it seems at least potentially to be beneficial to world peace, science, technology and education and these are things that I really care about.

Some people will not be easy to convert, they believe the evidence gives them a genuine case for faith, but I think that huge numbers of theists either have major doubts or are really, if they are honest, just 'in the closet' atheists. That is what this growing movement is about, saying

"Its OK to have these doubts, they are well founded and you are not alone. You are not evil or stupid, you just don't believe and that's fine."

I would personally have preferred Dawkins to have taken a softer tone in his book, but I am very glad that his book in particular seems to have had a big impact in raising this debate, I think that is a major goal of the book and a major victory that has already been achieved. Pene, for example, seems to have been influenced in exactly the way I would have hoped. I hope there are many more like you – Well done.

240. Comment #10470 by Chris on November 28, 2006 at 7:17 am

539. re Material vs Non material world.

You were quite right to pick me up on that, I did not address that very well, and what I wrote was balls! I am someone who is very interested in the concepts of Super String theory and this rather assumes a certain number of hidden spatial dimensions, I have no idea what if anything lurks in them, indeed I can not even conceive what it means to co-exist with curled up spatial dimensions, but I can appreciate the mathematical argument for their existence, which may or may not be valid. The point being, you are quite right, I can make no judgement on the importance to this reality of other realities, spatial or otherwise which I can not understand.

Indeed I deem it highly that there is much that is material that I do not know and cannot understand and much that is not what I would call 'material' that I also do not understand (Dark matter and energy for starters but these are only things at the edge of my not understanding, I suspect my ignorance goes much much deeper).

But…. (you knew one was coming)

I don't see how any of this changes my assessment of whether or not there is a personal God, the fact that I, like you am not all knowing about the nature of creation, does not increase the possibility of the existence of a personal God, especially as a Personal God by nature interacts with the material world in which I exist (through prayer, miracles and the sending of begotten sons).

My belief in a personal God is entirely dependant on the data that I am aware of. There could be such a God, but from my point of view, the probability of his existence is proportional to the evidence I see, which is basically none and thus I'm afraid his existence, based on the information available to me, it is no more likely than our friend the spaghetti monster. If I am wrong, I hope Allah or Zeus or Yahweh or the Spaghetti Monster understands I approached this issue with an open mind and made an honest decision but frankly, they put me in an impossible position and they really only have themselves to blame.

Chris

241. Comment #10485 by Martin on November 28, 2006 at 7:56 am


Quite remarkable view of history which totally ignores the Reformation and the development of the sciences that took place after the church returned to biblical teaching. But as I have found out the mickey mouse atheist version of history is untouchable to its devotees!


I'd not ignored the Reformation (which one in particular, protestant or catholic?) The Reformation, despite being basically religious infighting, actually marked the beginning of the end of the Dark Ages for me. Once people started being able to read the texts they were supposed to believe in things could start to be questioned. Unfortunately the enlightenment this brought, and the openness and example that allowed (however slightly) the status quo to be questioned marked the beginnings of the rennaisance and the move towards a more rational world that was dominated by a thirst for knowledge and less of the dogma that religion is famous for.

So while religion brought about the horror, relgion also brought about its end. In a way, I suspect the refomation was probably triggered by the crusades. All those knights and squires coming back with soap and other amazing wonders from the arab world which at the time was probably the most educated society in the world, realising that there was something better out there, despite the arabs being heretics. I wonder just how much the church might have worried about it's survival when the common people realised that a different religion was providing a much better world for it's followers. The church had to change or it would go under. So it it turned to in fighting and did what it always does, re-write what it believes to fit in with the times. Seems the word of god isn't quite as immovable (or perfect) as one might believe.


I guess it must be so simple to live in a fundamentalist world where you know everything about everyone. My earliest memories are not about Christ, I was not baptised as a child and for many years Christ was not part of my life. But hey, you're an atheist, so why let facts get in the way of a good rant! You remind me of the Financial Times journalist who came to my church to write an article on religion. Afterwarards he came for a meal and said to the various people assembled there - 'of course you are all religious because you were brought up that way'. Of the 8 people in the room not one of them was brought up in the church. It kind of blew his theory apart.


Depends on what you consider brought up in the church doesn't it. You cannot escape religion in our current world. It's insidious. Therefore you were brought up "in the church" whether you were spoon fed it by your parents or not. We are, much to my irritation, a Christian society. If you had been raised in a hindu or islamic society and you turned to christianity without having really ever heard anything about it before, then I'd be impressed by your claim.


"ow else do you explain so many religions all claiming to be right?"

You are right-there is a natural tendency towards religion because every human being is born with a sense of God. The different religions are explained by humanity's stupidity and sinfullness and by those who wish to exploit that for their own power and advancement.


Blinded by faith. Humans aren't born with a sense of God! They are born with a tendency to believe in the supernatural. I could just as well argue that all Greeks were born with a sense of olympus and that's why they all believed in their gods. Your statement is meaningless.

My statement on the other hand isn't clouded by religion and should be acceptable even to you, if you sufficient honest to accept it. God is super natural, even in your definition of him/her/it; s/he is above nature, hence super natural.

So yes, we agree, humans are born with a tendency to believe in the supernatural. Just what form that belief (if at all) takes is up to society.


"Have you read the so-called holy books of all the other religions?"

Yes - of all the major ones.


Well, you're one ahead of me then. I've only really read the bible and it's a load of drivel. When I've read the others I might follow their religion, but I doubt it. In either case your god is a load of hot air.


"ou are stamping your frame of reference on something you obviously don't understand. You are so blinded by your belief you cannot imagine how easy it is not to believe. Shame really, you are missing out on so much."

Yes - I thinkit is very easy not to believe.


Haha.. how ignorant you really are, and hypocritical. To use your own phrase "I guess it must be so simple to live in a fundamentalist world where you know everything about everyone."

It's much easier to excuse everything with "god did it" or explain away everything with "god works in mysterious ways". Basically that is the cop out answer. Not believing means we actually need to explain things, to find the true answers, instead of poking our heads in the sand.

My life would be so simpler if I would just accept that at the end of my life I can just ask for forgiveness and go to heaven.



"he only way we will ever get world peace is by eliminating religion as a power entirely."

Sweet really. Your faith, without a shred of evidence, is untried and untested. The only societies that have tried to live without religion have been real bringers of world peace - Stalins Russia, Mao's China, Pol POts Kampuchea (oh - but I forgot they were not real atheists - they were religious people in disguise!).


Your ignorance is only matched by your arrogance. Those societies didn't try to live without religion, the absence of religion was imposed on them. Religion never died out in those states it just went underground. I'd never try to forcably remove religion. I want people to wake up and shed the shackles off themselves.

As proof that I am right and that religion is no bar to a peaceful society, look at the scandinavian countries, bordering on 90% atheist those countries have some of the lowest crime rates and highest standards of living in the western worlds. Whereas the more religious a country gets the higher the crime rate with the USA on religious nut case end of the spectrum.

This is reflected the world over, the more religious a country the more crime there is and if it's not crime it's because the society as a whole ignores human rights because it's not compatible with their religion.


By the way - you and a couple of others made the accusation that my last article misrepresented and misunderstood Dawkins ch.1. I asked specifically for you to point out where I had done that. There has been no reply. Was this just a rhetorical statement? Or do you have an answer? I would appreciate it.

I was too busy countering your other non-sense. When I've finished "The Blind Watchmaker" I'll go back and dissect your article. I suspect I've given you enough to deal with in this reply to keep you busy (or at least shaking your head) for a while.

242. Comment #10559 by saneatheist on November 28, 2006 at 11:23 am

Dear David Robertson, Thank you for doing so much to educate me regarding God's Law and what will happen to me for being an Atheist. I have learned a great deal from your posts in this debate and I will try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some of the other specific laws of the bible and how to follow them:

When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odour for the Lord - Lev.1:9. The problem is my neighbours. They claim the odour is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?

I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?

I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness - Lev.15:19- 24. The problem is, how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offence.

Lev. 25:44 states that I may indeed possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighbouring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to English, but not Welsh. Can you clarify? Why can't I own the Welsh.

I have a neighbour who insists on working on Sunday(Sabbath). Exodus 35:2 clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself?

A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination - Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don't agree. Can you settle this?

Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle room here?

Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?

I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?

My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev. 19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? - Lev.24:10-16. Couldn't we just burn them to death at a private family affair like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)

I know you have studied these things extensively, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God's word is eternal and unchanging.

243. Comment #10566 by saneatheist on November 28, 2006 at 11:47 am

From the website of David Robertsons church,
St Peters free church Dundee.

It is intended that we will have news updated on a regular basis here. Unfortunately, we have let things slip and we have not updated this for over a year! Hopefully soon, (yes, I know we have said this before) there will be some fresh information to keep this page alive...watch this space...(04/05/04)

Oh dear! nothing to say in two and a half years.
Replace "keep this page alive" with keep this religion alive.

244. Comment #10629 by Anonymous on November 28, 2006 at 4:23 pm

Heard the one about the sane wee free?

Nah, me neither

245. Comment #10730 by saneatheist on November 29, 2006 at 3:41 am

David, would you like to show me where I
"labelled everyone belonging to a particular church insane"
you're very good at misinterprating what people say, or simply making up things that they never said. Please stop it.

246. Comment #10744 by Martin on November 29, 2006 at 4:37 am


I love the ways you guys do history. You just kind of make it up as you go along! I hope that your science is better! The Reformation came about because of a variety of factors - the most significant being the discovery of the message of the Bible, its printing etc. I think you will find that the Crusades did not take place in the 16th century.


Pot calling the kettle black I think. You just make your faith/evidence etc up as you go along.

I am perfectly aware that the Crusades did not happen in the 16th century. They occured between the 11th and 13th centuries.

In an age without instant mass communication things take time, and my point was that the crusades planted the seeds of the change, which was to come later, starting in the 14th century and culminating in the reformations of the 15th and early 16th century. The fact that your chose to ignore the substantive parts of my argument or possibly failed to see it behind the blinker of your faith only further supports Pene's belief that you are a bully and attempting to brown beat me into submission without even dealing with my arguments.


Now the logic here is going all over the place. I am a Christian because I was brought up in a Christian society. Therefore you must be a Christian as well. And everyone else brought up in the US or Britain. Doesn't quite work doe[s]


No my logic is perfectly sound. And I agree that to a point I am a Christian. Like so many others for years I ticked the "christian" box on the census form because I just couldn't think of anything else, although I certainly didn't believe in god even then. It's the group hug fallacy as I like to call it. Everyone wants to be in a group. It just took me a while to actually realise that there was a group out there that much better matched my values and then I happily cast off the old group. I hold to my reason in spite of the indoctrination attempts by the church. I think that that makes my position stronger than yours. I have to actively chose to move against the flow, you can just drift with the rest of the brainwashed lemmings. Admittedly, you are less of a lemming, and more of a lemming pusher, the person that stands at the edge of the cliff and encourages the lemmings to jump off.


This is interesting - another atheist myth! I regulary vist Sweden. It is not 90% atheist. Up until 2000 it had a State established church - which the vast majority of people still belong to. I think you are confuisng atheism with socialism.


While 90% is certainly the highest value ever recorded, the general consensus over the years is that sweden is at least 70% atheist:


According to Norris and Inglehart (2004), 64% of those in Sweden do not believe in God. According to Bondeson (2003), 74% of Swedes said that they did not believe in "a personal God." According to Greeley (2003), 46% of Swedes do not believe in God, although only 17% self-identify as "atheist." According to Froese (2001), 69% of Swedes are either atheist or agnostic. According to Gustafsoon and Pettersson (2000), 82% of Swedes do not believe in a "personal God." According to Davie (1999), 85% of Swedes do not believe in God.


The use the existence of a state church and is a logical fallacy. By your argument the US should be the most atheist country in the world, since it has constitutionally no state church. In fact, I'm glad you raised the point that they had a state church. It was removed because it wasn't needed nor was it right to have one any more.

People might belong to the state church, but that doesn't mean they believe. It's the group hug fallacy again.

247. Comment #10759 by Martin on November 29, 2006 at 5:22 am


No - he did not. He answered yes when he was asked did he think he would have to account to God for what he had done in Iraq. There is a big difference. And again I would prefer a politician who thought he was accountable to God for his actions than one who did not (aka Hitler and Mao)


George Washington, Thomas Jefferson and most of the founding fathers of the US were all great politicians and they were almost all Deists. In other words they were not accountable to god.

I'm sure if I started digging I could find other important leaders that were either deists or agnostic or atheist.

Being an atheist doesn't stop one being a tyrant. It just makes it harder to justify since you can't use "god told me" as your excuse.

248. Comment #10780 by Paul Creber on November 29, 2006 at 6:45 am

Here's a real question from an open mind: "What is your evidence for the virgin birth?"
David Robertson replied: "The testimony of the Bible."

Okay, let's take it as read, for the sake of argument, that the testimony of the Bible is sufficient evidence for the virgin birth.
Regrettably, this leaves me with another almighty headache. This is because that same Biblical testimony, on which we have just placed such store, also tells me that the entire universe was created in six days, and that the first two men and women on this planet were created as fully grown adults.
My almighty problem is this: Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, for which there is overwhelming evidence, leads me to suppose that humankind came into existence in an entirely different manner - as a descendant of other species, in fact.
Do you follow the testimony of the Bible in this regard also?

249. Comment #10781 by Anonymous on November 29, 2006 at 6:49 am

Back on page 11, Paul creber asked for evidence of the virgin birth.
What evidence did David Robertson come up with?
"The testimony of the bible"
Well if he thinks that is evidence, I think It's futile to try and debate wi