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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

Comments 251 - 300 of 580 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

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251. Comment #10786 by Martin on November 29, 2006 at 7:54 am


Back on page 11, Paul creber asked for evidence of the virgin birth.
What evidence did David Robertson come up with?
"The testimony of the bible"


As soon as a theist resorts to "It's in the bible" they have lost the argument.

Being the most generous possible, the bible is open to interpretation. Therefore it can say almost anything you want it to say making it useless as a evidence of anything.

As proof of the existence of fairies, I point you to the testimony of Peter Pan.

252. Comment #10790 by saneatheist on November 29, 2006 at 8:19 am

Paul Creber,
I found this and thought it might be of interest to you.

The Virgin Birth Fraud
The most colossal blunder of the Septuagint translators, the mistranslation of the original Hebrew text of Isaiah, 7.14, allowed deceitful early Christians to concoct their infamous prophecy that somehow the ancient Jewish text presaged the miraculous birth of their own godman.

The Hebrew original says:
'Hinneh ha-almah harah ve-yeldeth ben ve-karath shem-o immanuel.'
Honestly translated, the verse reads:
'Behold, the young woman has conceived — and bears a son and calls his name Immanuel.'
The Greek-speaking translators of Hebrew scripture (in 3rd century B.C. Alexandria) slipped up and translated 'almah' (young woman) into the Greek 'parthenos' (virgin). The Hebrew word for virgin would have been 'betulah.' The slip did not matter at the time, for in context, Isaiah's prophesy – set in the 8th century BC but probably written in the 5th – had been given as reassurance to King Ahaz of Judah that his royal line would survive, despite the ongoing siege of Jerusalem by the Syrians. And it did. In other words, the prophesy had nothing to do with events in Judaea eight hundred years into the future!
Justin 'Martyr', a pagan Greek from Palestine, fled to Ephesus at the time of Bar Kochbar's revolt (132 -135 AD). He joined the growing Christian community and found himself competing with the priests of Artemis, an eternally virgin goddess. Justin successfully overcame the sentiments of established Christians and had Mary, mother of Jesus, declared a virgin, citing his Greek copy of Isaiah as 'evidence' of scriptural prescience. The Greek priest who then forged the 'Gospel according to St. Matthew' went one stage further, taking the word 'harah' – in Hebrew a past or perfect tense – and switched it into a future tense to arrive at:

'Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel.'
(Matthew 1.23)
All this to arrive at the monstrous fiction that ancient scripture foretold of the arrival of an infant actually called Jesus!

253. Comment #10793 by Chris on November 29, 2006 at 8:28 am

Right – article comments

My writing so far has been an attempt at criticising your first article (I have not read your other as I do not have access to the page they are on). My thoughts have centred on two arguments you make which I think are incorrect.

1) That Dawkins and atheism are coming from a position of faith (blind faith presumably) and that they are fundamentalists or evangelicals and that their viewpoint is therefore no better than that of religious fundamentalists.

I have written at length in our discussions on this, I disagree strongly because based on the evidence available theirs is the most logical and rational position to take. You have disagreed, I am adamant that you are wrong to disagree. In particular the view that theirs is a faith position is particularly irritating because they clearly are not, the only assumption they are making is that their perception of reality is a reasonable representation of truth, you have challenged this assumption but it is in my opinion wrong to do so because the doubting of perception leads only to the admission that we know nothing, we can not even know that the bible exists or even that other people exist. Acknowledging that we do not know everything does nothing to strengthen the God hypothesis.



2) That the Dawkins belief is hypocritical because while he attacks the morality of religious leaders, atheist leaders like Stalin are worse.

While the truth of a religion has no impact on its usefulness, this argument is important to Dawkins because it explains why we should not just let religion be and why it needs to be confronted.

The best way I can express this is to use the Steven Weinberg approach. Some leaders in history have been good (there to put the interest of humanity before themselves) and some have been bad (megalomaniacal self interested and willing to make people suffer for their own good or ideology). But there is also a category of leaders who have probably been basically good, and wanted to do 'the right thing', but what they actually did was bad because they were following scripture to a logical conclusion. The Spanish inquisition was quite moral, so is murdering doctors who conduct abortions, opposing stem cell research, flying planes into the twin towers, hating 'fags', killing infidels or instigating a nuclear holocaust in the middle east IF you interpret a holy book to mean that these things are Gods will and some people do interpret it that way and I can't really blame them.

It is not surprising that megalomaniacs like Stalin and Hitler were atheist, but that is because they would reject something greater than themselves, they are not megalomaniacs because they are atheist, they are just megalomaniacs.

"Good people will always do good things, bad people will always do bad things, but only religion can make good people do bad things".

This is also what I meant when I said that secular humanism offers no barriers to acting in the best interests of humanity, it will make mistakes, but will do so for honest reasons not because it was following scripture.

We do not want bad people as leaders but we also to not want good people committing bad deeds because of their faith in an ancient text, no matter how well intentioned their actions. And as Dawkins pointed out, there sure are a lot of bad deeds in religious texts. We want good people unbounded by religious dogma (or indeed dogma of any kind), free to do what they deem best for humanity.

These are the general themes I would address in article 1. There are specific aspects too. These are as follows.


The following things are factually inaccurate or misleading.

- "Dawkins does not discuss with fundamentalists". He does, but seeks to avoid public debate (although has conducted such debate in the past).
- Atheists are poorly represented in America, indeed the House of Representatives and the Senate contain no openly atheist members to my knowledge. Atheists are mistrusted, disliked and unelectable entirely because they are atheists.
- In post 539 in rebutting Martin, you said you were not brought up in the church, but in the article you said you were brought up in a religious home. I know you can argue you rejected that teaching at a young age but I think it fair to say you have done some distinct blurring of the boundaries to score a point on Martin here.
- Your compare Dawkins to the Nazi's in saying that blaming the worlds ills on religion is like the Germans blaming everything on the Jews (I don't think Dawkins does blame the majority of ills on religion).

This is also a highly misleading, there are lots of examples in history of one group blaming things on a particular ideology, for example one can flip it around and blame the problems of the Jews during the holocaust on the Nazi's anti-Semitic ideology or one can cite the subjugation of blacks in the US on the racist ideology incumbent in the country at the time. Sometimes the accusers are right – to pick the example of the Nazi's blaming the Jews is unnecessarily provocative and misleading (no one is talking about rounding anyone up, just persuading people of a particular ideology to change their minds).

One final point – you say the arguments for atheism are sixth form in nature ( I will assume you deal with them directly in future articles). Indeed it is worse than that as I independently came up with almost all of them as a theist at the age of 14 whilst on my Religious Studies GCSE course. That they are simple and obvious does nothing to diminish their power, if anything it enhances it. For all the sophisticated theology over the years, the simple truth is that (for my mind at least) a personal God hypothesis is undone by a child's logic. I think this is one of the most powerful ideas of the book because many, myself included, long thought 'there must be more to religion than this?' – By demonstrating that there isn't, I think Dawkins might win quite a few converts. I know this last comment will grate, I do not mean offence. I look forward to your counter to Dawkins arguments.

I also agree with you on something! I think there is a subtext in Dawkins book that the Religious are stupid. I think and hope that Dawkins himself would not actually say this, but it is certainly a subtext to the book and I don't like it because it is not true and it is not nice. As you have demonstrated, and has many others have demonstrated theism is not caused by stupidity (Issac Newton for a start). On the other hand, the aggressive tone probably helps raise the profile of the debate which is a good thing. I just don't like not being nice.

I hope you had a safe trip.


Chris

254. Comment #10798 by Paul Creber on November 29, 2006 at 8:40 am

Saneatheist
Thanks. I was aware of the "young woman" mistranslation, but you have fleshed out (pun intended) the story most graphically.
Who knows what other tangled webs of cock-up, intrigue and megolomania lie buried beneath "scripture"?

255. Comment #10835 by saneatheist on November 29, 2006 at 11:23 am

PAUL
Check out this site.
http://jesusneverexisted.com/

256. Comment #10858 by Paul Creber on November 29, 2006 at 12:58 pm

Saneatheist
Thanks

These are worth a visit, too
http://skeptically.org/newtestament/id29.html
http://www.atheists.org/christianity/didjesusexist.html
And anything by Robert M Price, if you haven't read him.

257. Comment #11624 by David A Robertson on December 6, 2006 at 4:17 am

Hi guys,

Sorry that I have been away in Holland. Thanks for the comments again.

The latest article is up - http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novd06.htm

Please feel free to add any comments.

David

Meanwhile a few replies below.

"What, per chance, is beyond the material?"

The spiritual.

"And like many other faithful he seems keen on redefining faith to include proof. That doesn't cut it."

Why not? We are the ones who after all claim to have faith. You then attack us on the basis of a definition of faith which no sane biblical Christian would ever accept.

"Also, in his latest article, he asserts that Hitler was an atheist. There's reason to believe he wasn't, but that isn't really the issue, is it? It was German SOCIETY that committed the crimes of World War II. It was the German SOCIETY that established the cult of personality around Hitler."

Indeed. And Weimar Germany is a classic example of what happens when people turn away from the God of the Bible and turn towards the philosophy of Nietzsche, the godless materialism of secularism and social Darwinianism. It was primarily the intellectuals, including the majority of the scientific community who bought into the Nazi philosophy. It did not fit with 'weak Christianity' but might is right and racism certainly seemed to fit with social Darwinianism.

"I highly doubt that secular societies have more taboos than religious ones."

I think they do. In Britain the secularists have succeeded in getting 74% of firms to ban Christmas decorations on the pretext that they may offend other faiths (despite all other faiths stating they are more offended by decorations being banned). I also came home to a letter requestiong that I be banned from expressing views which were 'offensive'.

"Actually, there have been quite a bit more than a few Christian terrorist attacks in the United States since 9/11, although they seldom are reported in the media and do not aim for mass destruction."

This is new information. Please cite and let me know about these Christian terrorist attacks in the USA. They must be pretty stupid as the point of terrorism is to terrorise and that's kind of difficult to do when nobody knows about you!

"The only atheistic states in the world have been the most vicious and cruel that the world has ever seen. Atheistic secular fundamentalism is in my view as intolerant and coercive as almost any religious position."




560. saneatheist

"David, would you like to show me where I
"labelled everyone belonging to a particular church insane"
you're very good at misinterprating what people say, or simply making up things that they never said. Please stop it."

Saneatheist – Sorry I put your comments and anonymous together. I did not mean to imply that you were the same. Anyone reading the comments could soon work that out.


561. Comment #10744 by Martin


Interesting notion that the Crusades in the 12th century started the Reformation in the 16th because communication was slow!


565. Comment #10780 by Paul Creber on November 29, 2006 at 6:45 am

"Here's a real question from an open mind: "What is your evidence for the virgin birth?"
David Robertson replied: "The testimony of the Bible."

Okay, let's take it as read, for the sake of argument, that the testimony of the Bible is sufficient evidence for the virgin birth.
Regrettably, this leaves me with another almighty headache. This is because that same Biblical testimony, on which we have just placed such store, also tells me that the entire universe was created in six days, and that the first two men and women on this planet were created as fully grown adults.
My almighty problem is this: Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, for which there is overwhelming evidence, leads me to suppose that humankind came into existence in an entirely different manner - as a descendant of other species, in fact.
Do you follow the testimony of the Bible in this regard also?"

Paul – that's a good question. If the evidence for evolution is as strong as you say it is (and I am inclined to believe that you are correct) then I would have to ask if the Bible really does teach that the world was created 10,000 years ago. I actually think the Bible says nothing about the age of the earth – and it would seem to me that theistic evolution would fit well with Genesis 1 and 2.

566. Comment #10781 by Anonymous

"Back on page 11, Paul creber asked for evidence of the virgin birth.
What evidence did David Robertson come up with?
"The testimony of the bible"
Well if he thinks that is evidence, I think It's futile to try and debate with him.
If every time he gets a question he can't handle he's gooing to say "but it's in the bible".

No – I am not going to say that every time I get a question. But as regards this particular question I cannot offer any other evidence than the Bible. The reason is that I cannot examine Mary or timetravel. The only reason I believe it happened is because it is in the Bible. The Virgin Birth is itself untestable by us. That of course does not make it either unbelievable or untrue.


569. Comment #10790 by saneatheist on November 29, 2006 at 8:19 am

"Paul Creber,
I found this and thought it might be of interest to you."

Of course you found it and of course you accepted it, even though you don't know a word of Hebrew, because it agreed with you. Perhaps you should learn to question…

In terms of Is 7:14 – let me point out the following facts

1) The word 'almah' is never used of a married woman in the Bible.
2) In Genesis 24 v. 43 – it is used of Rebecah as a virgin.
3) 'almah' is the only word that could have been used which unequivocally signifies an unmarried woman.


570. Comment #10793 by Chris on November 29, 2006 at 8:28 am


"1) That Dawkins and atheism are coming from a position of faith (blind faith presumably) and that they are fundamentalists or evangelicals and that their viewpoint is therefore no better than that of religious fundamentalists."

No – it is not blind faith. That is not a definition which I would accept of faith. I think Dawkins is a fundamentalist in that he does not appear to tolerate anyone or anything that thinks outside his particular box. He has a naturalistic worldview and just knows that that is true. Everything else is based upon that. I find many of his reactions, and the reactions of some of the people here the same.

"While the truth of a religion has no impact on its usefulness, this argument is important to Dawkins because it explains why we should not just let religion be and why it needs to be confronted."

I do not think it is wrong to do this. What we believe does impact how we behave. Where I think his analysis is wrong is in divided the world into good and bad people (aka George Bush 'evil empire') and then blaming religion for turning good people bad.

"The Spanish inquisition was quite moral"

But that is an absurd argument. They are not moral. The Spanish inquisition was not remotely interested in following the Bible (indeed the people they tortured the most were those who wanted to read the Bible!)

". We want good people unbounded by religious dogma (or indeed dogma of any kind), free to do what they deem best for humanity. "

Does this include being free from the dogma that there is no dogma, or the dogma that religion is bad or the dogma that God is a delusion?

- "Dawkins does not discuss with fundamentalists". He does, but seeks to avoid public debate (although has conducted such debate in the past).

Given that he avoids debate could you them let me know where he discusses with fundamentalists?

"Atheists are poorly represented in America, indeed the House of Representatives and the Senate contain no openly atheist members to my knowledge. Atheists are mistrusted, disliked and unelectable entirely because they are atheists."

I suspect this is true – but in reality I would suggest that atheistic philosophy and practical atheism is probably the predominant philosophy in much public and educational life.

"Your compare Dawkins to the Nazi's in saying that blaming the worlds ills on religion is like the Germans blaming everything on the Jews (I don't think Dawkins does blame the majority of ills on religion).This is also a highly misleading, there are lots of examples in history of one group blaming things on a particular ideology, for example one can flip it around and blame the problems of the Jews during the holocaust on the Nazi's anti-Semitic ideology or one can cite the subjugation of blacks in the US on the racist ideology incumbent in the country at the time. Sometimes the accusers are right – to pick the example of the Nazi's blaming the Jews is unnecessarily provocative and misleading (no one is talking about rounding anyone up, just persuading people of a particular ideology to change their minds)."

I disagree with this. The mantra that religion is too blame for everything is one that is repeated ad nauseum. The blame language and the viciousness of the assaults is very similar to how the Jews were spoken of in Nazi Germany.

571. Comment #10797 by asdf on November 29, 2006 at 8:39 am


"God would tell me, "George, go and fight those terrorists in Afghanistan." And I did, and then God would tell me, "George, go and end the tyranny in Iraq …" And I did"

Could you tell me where you get these quotation marks from? As I recall the source of the original claim was someone from the Palestinian authority – and the remarks are denied by Bush.

And as regards Blair there is a world of difference between praying about something and claiming that God told you to do it. For example before I started writing today I prayed and I prayed about what I was going to do. Does this mean that I am claiming divine revelation for what I am writing? Not at all.

"I would prefer a politician who thought he was accountable to God for his actions than one who did not (aka Hitler and Mao)"

"ell this world exists for sure, so it is rational that genocidal killers should be accountable in this world if possible."

But what if they are not? What if they have the power?

Other Comments by David A Robertson

258. Comment #11635 by David A Robertson on December 6, 2006 at 6:34 am

Having listened to the following I now understand why Dr Dawkins does not debate!

http://www.rte.ie/radio1/thetubridyshow/rams/2006/9october.smil

Other Comments by David A Robertson

259. Comment #11660 by Paul Creber on December 6, 2006 at 11:36 am

I wrote: "My almighty problem is this: Darwin's theory of evolution by natural selection, for which there is overwhelming evidence, leads me to suppose that humankind came into existence in an entirely different manner - as a descendant of other species, in fact.
Do you follow the testimony of the Bible in this regard also?"

David Robertson responded: "Paul – that's a good question. If the evidence for evolution is as strong as you say it is (and I am inclined to believe that you are correct) then I would have to ask if the Bible really does teach that the world was created 10,000 years ago. I actually think the Bible says nothing about the age of the earth – and it would seem to me that theistic evolution would fit well with Genesis 1 and 2."

I thought it was a good question, too. So why didn't you answer it? The question I asked had nothing to do with the age of the Earth. The question was this: "[The] same Biblical testimony, on which we have just placed such store, also tells me that the entire universe was created in six days, and that the first two men and women on this planet were created as fully grown adults… Do you follow the testimony of the Bible in this regard also?"

Please allow me to repeat the question in another way: Is the Bible correct when it tells us the first human beings on this planet were created as fully grown adults?

Other Comments by Paul Creber

260. Comment #11742 by David A Robertson on December 7, 2006 at 2:34 am

Billy,

"David, it is far from conclusive that Almah definitely means virgin (eg Prov 30:18-19)."

Proverbs 30 v. 18-19 the word could mean 'immoral woman' but it does not indicate a married woman.

"Isaiah also uses the word bethulah (virgin) 4 times (23:12, 37:22, 47:1, 62:5), but NOT in 7:14"

Why did Isaiah not use bethulah at this point? Because bethulah could mean a betrothed virgin. In Joel 1:8 the word is clearly used of a married woman. If Isaiah had used the word bethulah we would have been left confused about what he really meant (and the atheist handbook of 101 things to say about the bible would have jumped upon the various meanings possible). Using Almah makes it clear.

"To me, the discussion concerning the translation of Almah is insignificant compared to the context of the verse. Read the chapter. The prophecy is clearly to Ahaz for the benefit of Ahaz."

No - it is not. You completely misunderstand the nature of Isaiah and prophecy. There is not a single commentator who would understand prophecy as limited to the individiual and immediate context to which it came.

"The prophecy fails. There is no way it is about Jesus, so matthew lied. It is no prophecy, and therefore, it never happened . The bible is wrong."

I think what you are really saying is 'I want the prophecy to fail. I want Matthew to lie. And I want the Bible to be wrong. Therefore it never happended". Which is not quite the same thing as knowing Hebrew or the context of prophecies etc. And by the way - what does this have to do with Dawkins Delusion or any of my articles?

Paul,

Sorry I though I had answered the question. I assumed that stating that the world was made in six days was about the age of the earth. I also stated that theistic evolution was one acceptable way of understanding the Bible. So the answers are obvious -

a) YEC - would say that the earth is 10,000 years old, that Adam and Eve were specially created as fully grown adults.
b) OEC - would say that the earth is millions of years old and that Adam and Eve were specially created as adults.
c) TE - would say that the earth is millions of years old and that Adam and Eve evolved over a period of time and that they became fully human when God 'brethed' his Spirit into them.

Of these three positions I think the evidence appears to be overwhelmingly against the first. I would incline towards the second but am open to persuasion and see a lot of merit in the third.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

261. Comment #11744 by David A Robertson on December 7, 2006 at 2:39 am

Chris,

You wrote "My writing so far has been an attempt at criticising your first article (I have not read your other as I do not have access to the page they are on). "

I am sorry about that. Apparently the powers that be have determined that my later articles are not to be posted on this site. If you want to see them then I would suggest that you go to www.freechurch.org and then click on the Todays Issues. I will be putting up the fifth and sixth articles (which really deal with the heart of hte book - ch's 3 and 4) in the next week). I appreciate your feedback.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

262. Comment #11746 by BillySands on December 7, 2006 at 2:54 am

 avatarHello David.
You are quite wrong to assume that I want the prophecy to fail. That is just the way it is. It does fail (Believe it or not, there are actually some arguements against christianity that I disagree with).

"No - it is not. You completely misunderstand the nature of Isaiah and prophecy. There is not a single commentator who would understand prophecy as limited to the individiual and immediate context to which it came."

If you believe that, you are believing what you want to believe and ultimately the bible is evidence for nothing and everything. To say a verse not about jesus is about jesus defies any rationality. I have to reject that answer, and ultimately what you are really saying is that there is no logical basis to belief that jesus was born of a virgin. Would it not be true to say this is faith and not reason? Feel free to explain your "understanding" of how a prophecy about one person can actually be about another.

"I think what you are really saying is 'I want the prophecy to fail. I want Matthew to lie. And I want the Bible to be wrong. Therefore it never happended". Which is not quite the same thing as knowing Hebrew or the context of prophecies etc."

Which is the most likeley situation? An ancient virgin giving birth or a person who wrote in greek messing up/altering a translation that happens to fit in with popular contempory mythology?

"And by the way - what does this have to do with Dawkins Delusion or any of my articles?"

In many places you just launch into quoting the bible as truth in your criticism of the god delusion. I therefore think this has to be challenged.

I would be interested to know (im sure you will tell Paul) Why you think scientific views of origin and the bible are compatible. I dont think they are. Appart from the fact gen 1 says animals were created then people and gen 2 put the order man, animals woman, gen also tells us the earth existed before the sun did. There was also no flood

Other Comments by BillySands

263. Comment #11772 by Paul Creber on December 7, 2006 at 7:59 am

David Robertson wrote:

"a) YEC - would say that the earth is 10,000 years old, that Adam and Eve were specially created as fully grown adults.
b) OEC - would say that the earth is millions of years old and that Adam and Eve were specially created as adults.
c) TE - would say that the earth is millions of years old and that Adam and Eve evolved over a period of time and that they became fully human when God 'brethed' his Spirit into them.
"Of these three positions I think the evidence appears to be overwhelmingly against the first. I would incline towards the second but am open to persuasion and see a lot of merit in the third."

Interesting that having accepted the testimony of the Bible as evidence for the virgin birth, you reject its testimony over creation. Your first option (Young Earth Creationism) represents by far the simplest and most obvious interpretation of what Genesis has to say about our origins. You reject this on the grounds of "overwhelming evidence" against it; in other words, you give higher credence to science than you do to a simple, straightforward reading of what the Bible has to say.
You go on to say that you favour option two (Old Earth Creationism), which as far as I can see entails bizarre and convoluted reasoning. You appear to be favouring a theory which says God created the planet, and then allowed natural selection to take its course over millions – indeed billions – of years, producing a vast array of plant and animal life. Then you seem to be saying that one fine day God stepped outside that process to create just two fully-grown specimens of the species Homo sapiens. Okay, David, if you want to believe that, go ahead, but please don't expect a positive response from more level-headed representatives of the species or for that matter from those in the Christian camp who at least have the courage to believe what Genesis actually says..
Your third option (Theistic Evolution), on which you say you are open to persuasion, also clearly lies a million light years from a straightforward reading of Genesis. Beyond that, however, I am at a loss to comment because your understanding of the evolutionary process is, shall we say, muddled, to say the least. May I suggest that you read some good books on the subject? Dr Richard Dawkins has written several excellent volumes aimed at laymen just like you.

Other Comments by Paul Creber

264. Comment #11774 by Kingasaurus on December 7, 2006 at 8:34 am

Part of what I find amusing in this specific argument about Old testament prophecy regarding Jesus, is that Christians like Robertson are perfectly willing to tell atheists that they don't know Biblical scholarship and Hebrew well enough to make these kinds of criticisms with any authority.

Other than making such a charge with limited information about the other person in question (which can be unwarranted), it ignores the elephant in the room:

Namely religious Jews, many of whom know the history of their own Bible and the Hebrew language at least as well as any Christian of any stripe. They reject the Christian claim that some OT prophecies refer to Jesus, and they often do so for many of th same reasons as atheists. But Christians aren't really interested in debating religious Jews all that much on matters of theology. Such debates happen, but it's tough because they normally can't throw out the "you guys are scripturally ignorant" card and get away with it.

They'd rather just tell atheists they aren't qualified to tell the difference between "almah" and "bethulah".

Well, many religious Jews are very qualified. Maybe you can ask them why they think the Isaiah prophecy has nothing to do with Jesus? Or would you rather just tell them they're ignorant of Hebrew and what it means?

Other Comments by Kingasaurus

265. Comment #11851 by Ewan D on December 7, 2006 at 5:52 pm

'I live in a universe created by a personal God, the God of mercy, logic, justice, goodness, truth, beauty and love. The God whose purposes and intentions are good.'

David, this is not a rhetorical question: do you ever wonder if you might have fallen prey to wishful thinking and self deception? Maybe my consciousness has been raised too high for my own good, but I find your assertion heartless. It strikes me as being in appalling taste to will such virtues into all you see, including (unless you're partially sighted) the indiscriminate suffering caused to humans and animals by the blind forces of nature.

I share your impulse to feel gratitude for the comforts and blessings in my life, but I don't for a second imagine that I deserve them more than those who are maimed, mutilated or widowed by natural disasters. It feels hideously presumptious to imagine divine justice is being served.

God, through nature, punishes innocents. That, on any showing is illogical, unjust, evil, ugly, and unloving.

But what's a bit of earthly suffering? These innocents (comprising - if we stick to your theology - the saved, and those who missed being saved through no fault of their own*) will get a huge compensation cheque in heaven. They'll do well out of 'God's plan' and won't resent being denied a proper shot at life.

Not so lucky for the others who find themselves enduring endless billions and trillions of years of torture. (Tell me, if it were up to you, who would YOU condemn to such a sentence? I want to see you bring all your goodness, logic, mercy and love to bear. WWJD?)



*Seemingly Jesus is picky about who he wants to save. Here's a comment on Mark chapter 4 from another thread (where the author JimMet quotes from an essay he wrote):

6. Comment #11764 by JimMet on December 7, 2006 at 6:49 am

"[I]n the gospel of Mark, chapter four, He reveals His sagacity while preaching in parable to a "great multitude" by the sea. After the sermon, His disciples ask why He used a parable instead of speaking straightforwardly. He replies that His double-talk is a mystery lest those He does not want in heaven are converted and their sins forgiven. He then interprets the Galilean galimatias for His perplexed disciples—the votaries who should best understand Him and least need clarification. Yet, earlier, He had left His congregation scratching their heads in perplexity: he might have preached with as much effect in a foreign tongue. He must have harbored an inexplicable detestation for those simple souls who came to Him thirsting for moral enlightenment, and for whom, by His own admission, He could have granted salvation with a few intelligible words. Rather, He hardened His heart against any semblance of human kindness (again proving His divinity?) and consigned them to suffer the eternal tortures of Hell. In His selfish elitism and unfathomable cruelty, The Paradigm of Perfection neglected to communicate unambiguously to everyone except His gang of twelve.

How should we assess the intellect and personality of someone who bothers to deliver a sermon he knows his listeners do not understand, not because they lack understanding, but because he is intentionally obscure and cruel? If perfection is, as argued, efficiently wedding means to ends, to what end did this act of supreme pitilessness aim? Perfect evil? For if His purpose was to commit a crime of the greatest possible enormity, what could be worse than to torment for eternity common folk who, by gathering before Him, demonstrated their unconditional trust in His saving power? A greater evil is unimaginable, but this was putatively the perfect action of God Incarnate."

Mercy. Logic. Justice. Goodness. Truth. Beauty. Love.......... Discuss

Other Comments by Ewan D

266. Comment #11881 by BillySands on December 8, 2006 at 2:21 am

 avatarHi Ewan, talking of blindness, here is a nice quote by David Attenburough
"My response is that when Creationists talk about God creating every individual species as a separate act, they always instance hummingbirds, or orchids, sunflowers and beautiful things. But I tend to think instead of a parasitic worm that is boring through the eye of a boy sitting on the bank of a river in West Africa, [a worm] that's going to make him blind. And [I ask them], 'Are you telling me that the God you believe in, who you also say is an all-merciful God, who cares for each one of us individually, are you saying that God created this worm that can live in no other way than in an innocent child's eyeball? Because that doesn't seem to me to coincide with a God who's full of mercy."

I believe Romans 9 also says something about god preventing some people from believing.

Other Comments by BillySands

267. Comment #11893 by David A Robertson on December 8, 2006 at 4:04 am

582. Comment #11746 by BillySands
"In many places you just launch into quoting the bible as truth in your criticism of the god delusion. I therefore think this has to be challenged."

Sorry - I do not in many places launch into quoting the Bible as truth. My articles deal with the various chapters in Dawkins book as they come up. The next one and the one on ch.7 will deal with that.

583. Comment #11772 by Paul Creber :

Paul,

I do not deny the Bible . I notice in this debate that the fundamentalists on both sides agree with and need each other. Atheist fundamentalists need the bible to be read 'literally'. When Jesus says I am the door - you do not take it literally by stating that he has a handle and is made of wood. When it speaks of the sun rising it is not teaching cosmology. I don't think Genesis 1-3 is teaching science (nor do I think it is incompatible with science0. The trouble is that in your black and white world there is no room for shades of grey.

The reason I cannot comment on evolution is that I am ignorant about it. I am actually open to all three possibilities.


584. Comment #11774 by Kingasaurus

"But Christians aren't really interested in debating religious Jews all that much on matters of theology. "

Not true. I have been involved in several such discussions.


585. Comment #11851 by Ewan D

. The God whose purposes and intentions are good.'

"David, this is not a rhetorical question: do you ever wonder if you might have fallen prey to wishful thinking and self deception?"

Yes -

"Maybe my consciousness has been raised too high for my own good, but I find your assertion heartless. It strikes me as being in appalling taste to will such virtues into all you see, including (unless you're partially sighted) the indiscriminate suffering caused to humans and animals by the blind forces of nature. "

Not really. God could have created a world in which there was no pain, suffering etc. Indeed he did. The main question is what went wrong? And why does it continue to go wrong? Free will and a lot of other stuff are bound up with that. But as your prophet has said he is not interested in free will.


"God, through nature, punishes innocents. That, on any showing is illogical, unjust, evil, ugly, and unloving."

_ I don't think God does through nature punish innocents.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

268. Comment #11894 by David A Robertson on December 8, 2006 at 4:08 am

My next article on The GOd Delusion - 'Arguments for the existence of God' is now online. All comments welcome.

http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/dec06.htm

Other Comments by David A Robertson

269. Comment #11896 by BillySands on December 8, 2006 at 4:35 am

 avatarsorry David, but you do launch into quoting the bible as true here is an example from your second article
"No one gives a better answer than Solomon, the wisest man who ever lived, "God has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end."(Ecclesiastes ch.3 v. 11)."

Taking a scientific view, suffering was already in the world before man came along. There was predation and disease and nasty death. The fossil record clearly shows that. So, I cannot agree with your statement that god created a perfect world. Also, I find it bizarre that he should want to punish mankind for the act of 2 people, who incidentally did not know what they were doing was wrong. They only knew that after they ate that fruit

Other Comments by BillySands

270. Comment #11899 by BillySands on December 8, 2006 at 4:39 am

 avatarBTW David, Jesus and Paul quote genesis and the flood as literal events. I think what liberal christians do here is deny what the bible actually says and latch on to science to give their faith more credibility.

Other Comments by BillySands

271. Comment #11900 by heymrrain on December 8, 2006 at 4:46 am

David, I read your latest piece with great interest, but I have to say, also, with increasing amusement. I'm sure someone else on here with more time than I will address all the inconsistencies and plain assumptions in your reasoning.

However, as a starting point, I did enjoy the following:

"You [Richard] then go on to declare "In any case, as I said, there is no good historical evidence that he ever thought he was divine";"

You then disabuse Richard by saying "The historical evidence for the claims that Jesus made is quite clear. The Gospels make it explicit."

If your standard of 'good historical evidence' is simply something that is written in the bible, then that really is quite pathetic.

I may as well contend that there is good historical evidence of the existence of fairies because I read it in Peter Pan, or that there is good historical evidence of Hobbits because I have read Tolkien.

For someone who has bothered to write as long a piece as yours on this, I find this and many more of your arguments laughably weak.

I'm sure others will cover some more here, but it's time for my lunch!

Other Comments by heymrrain

272. Comment #11901 by goddogit on December 8, 2006 at 4:50 am

David, do you type in your comments here while facing a big mirror? Whew! This site really attracts the dullest of a very dull crowd of vain-for-absolutely-NO-reason, fiftieth-rate Xians!

By ALL MEANS keep it up, David! You probably help turn fifty people a day away from the error of monotheism (at least), since no one would ever want to be part of a religion identified with people like you, worshipper of a God as moving and real as some ugly dashboard-mounted, glow-in-the-dark Jesus that you are.

What shit your kind have made of the message of the fine, if perhaps imaginary, teacher called "Jesus the Christ."

Other Comments by goddogit

273. Comment #11904 by Ewan D on December 8, 2006 at 6:05 am

Hi Billy,

Yes, David Attenborough put it well, but of course these sentiments elicit nothing more than a big solipsistic yawn from David Robertson.

David, thanks for answering. I honestly didn't mean you to hang yourself so willingly on the rope I offered.

'God could have created a world in which there was no pain, suffering etc.

How? for one thing, the food chain must have been 100% herbiverous, or prey species must have lacked nervous systems.

'Indeed he did.'

(The rope tightens)

Try giving a plausible historical description of this paradise, and fit it into the known geological timeframe. (Before or after the dinosaurs will do. I'm not a historian)

'The main question is what went wrong? And why does it continue to go wrong?'

Easy. A wicked talking reptile (just your typical inhabitant of intelligently designed perfect world) persuaded a pair of idiots into eating some magic fruit of damnation which was growing unguarded in an otherwise perfect paradise.

'Free will and a lot of other stuff are bound up with that.'

How glib. Which comes first - accepting the story of the fall and thereby detecting a prudent cause and effect relationship in nature, or deciding objectively that the suffering you see around you is fair, and thereby accepting the Eden fable as either true or a perfectly appropriate metaphor?

If it's the former, you've been brainwashed. Perhaps irretrievably. If the latter, you haven't looked hard enough at reality.

The ravages of climate change are a gift for fundamentalists because they give graphic illustration of the payback for burning fuel - something which is of course only ever done through sheer godless hedonism.

'But as your prophet has said he is not interested in free will.'

That's the second time you've called Dawkins my prophet, and it's wearing thin. I listened to the interview you're referring to, and yes, I winced when he said he's not interested in free will. I don't believe he meant that, except insofar as he was unprepared for the question. He was, after all, having to keep up with his opponent's misrepresentation of genetic determinism, and bulldozer tactics, (the boot on the other foot?) while formulating a response. He was flustered - a spectacle I wouldn't relish on either side.

Listen to E. O. Wilson on www.meaningoflife.tv for someone having a stab at explaining free will, but don't expect a final, comprehensive account - there isn't one. You'll have to be as patient as the rest of us - there are no shortcuts. Same goes for the existence of matter. The biblical explanation is no better than any other ancient myth.

And you'd do well to keep up to date with New Scientist - a couple of articles in the Nov 18 issue address such deep neurological issues as free will and self, with one analysing the cerebral mechanisms of self control and their vulnerability to damage (raising deep questions about responsibility).

P.S. Surprised you didn't favour us with the CORRECT interpretation of Mark 4

Other Comments by Ewan D

274. Comment #11906 by MartinSGill on December 8, 2006 at 6:17 am

 avatarDave,

Thank you for your one sentence answer to my points.

While I am sure we can continue to debate the causes of the reformation, I am glad that you have accepted implicitly that Sweden is a majority atheists nation and that it survives extremely well without the need for any religious delusions.

The corollary of that is that you accept my initial assertion of a negative correlation between the morality (criminality) of a country and religious adherence. Can you therefore explain to me why religion appears to encourage crime?

Of course religion might not be the actual reason for the crime rate. Social deprivation and lack of education et al can also be causes. Again are these caused by religion or is religion a result thereof? With the exception of the USA the most religious nations are also some of the poorest, take the strength of religion in Africa for example.

This leads to questions of causality. Either religion encourages crime, or religion is the result of crime. Which is it?

You mentioned that the Spanish inquisition wasn't moral. I beg to differ. The inquisition was moral. It was highly moral, as was keeping slaves and all sorts of other things. The point is that societies morals change. The Spanish inquisition did all it could to prevent herecy and in particular, as you pointed out, they pursued people that wanted to read the bible. This was because reading the bible lead to herecy; people questioning the church, and since the church represented god, by questioning the church people questioned god. The inquisitors were therefore on solid moral ground in their pursuit of these heretics, morals provided by the church and hence god!

Our morals do not come from the bible. If our current morals did then the last 2000 years of religious slaughter/persecution would not have happened since those people also had access to the same text we have and should therefore have drawn the same conclusions. Unless of course the text was so meaningless and vague as to allow any conclusion you want, which given the way religion and the bible has been and is being used to justify anything you want from creationism to murdering doctors, the suppression/exclusion of gays and a myriad of other very current issues, is probably the most likely conclusion.

I congratulate you on being a sufficiently decent human that when you read the bible and believed in its nonsense you at least retained your humanism and didn't succumb, like so many of your contemporaries, to its seductive approval of all your prejudices.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

275. Comment #11907 by Ewan D on December 8, 2006 at 6:30 am

David, Having just watched the Edward O. Wilson interview again I'd just like to restate my endorsement of his stance. There's a humane intellect - a credit to our species.

And since you found Dawkins' treatment of 'the God Hypothesis' unsatisfactory, brace yourself for Victor Stenger's forthcoming book, God - The Failed Hypothesis - which sticks as far as possible to its scientific remit. (I've read an early draft)

Other Comments by Ewan D

276. Comment #11908 by Ole on December 8, 2006 at 6:46 am

 avatarWOW, this is really getting long.. (soon 600).

Let me just comment on one single point in your last article, David A Robertson:

Out of interest where are the great atheist composers, artists etc?

My favourite composer is J.S. Bach and I know that he wrote S.D.G. (Soli Deo Gloria) on his manuscripts.

To quote another musician, Miles Davis: "SO WHAT?"

Bach died 1750, and Darwin published his book 100 years later (1959). If you go a bit forward from that, I guess you will find non-believers among great composers. Why? Well, the "Zeitgeist" changed, Darwin's Dangerous Idea was working.

A composer that was inspired by Bach was Dmitri Shostakovich (1906 - 1975). I'm not sure if he was an atheist, I only know his music. Perhaps he was.

Unlike some scientists, contemporary artists don't come out of the "closet" and tell us what they believe or not believe. As a musician you often get payed from churches for your service.

I often play in churces (some of the best music we have are non-secular music). I don't tell all church people I meet, that I'm an atheist. Why should I?

If they ask me, I will tell them.

O.J.

Other Comments by Ole

277. Comment #11909 by David A Robertson on December 8, 2006 at 7:09 am

591. Comment #11900 by heymrrain

"If your standard of 'good historical evidence' is simply something that is written in the bible, then that really is quite pathetic."

Why? The Gospels claim to be historical evidence. They should be examined as such. It is only the completely prejudiced mind that would automatically discount them.

"I may as well contend that there is good historical evidence of the existence of fairies because I read it in Peter Pan, or that there is good historical evidence of Hobbits because I have read Tolkien."

Which shows how little you understand the Bible. I think you will find that neither J M Barrie, nor Tolkien thought they were writing history. However Luke, Mark et all thought that they were. The comparison you make is nonsensical.

And if that's the best you can do to counter the arguments I would suggest you enjoy your lunch!

592. Comment #11901 by goddogit
"By ALL MEANS keep it up, David! You probably help turn fifty people a day away from the error of monotheism (at least), since no one would ever want to be part of a religion identified with people like you, worshipper of a God as moving and real as some ugly dashboard-mounted, glow-in-the-dark Jesus that you are.

What shit your kind have made of the message of the fine, if perhaps imaginary, teacher called "Jesus the Christ."

Sweet. Again the voice of reasoned atheism hitting me with the force of logic, rational and indepth analysis. I can feel the love…

593. Comment #11904 by Ewan D

"How glib. Which comes first - accepting the story of the fall and thereby detecting a prudent cause and effect relationship in nature, or deciding objectively that the suffering you see around you is fair, and thereby accepting the Eden fable as either true or a perfectly appropriate metaphor?"

Nice of you to answer your own questions for me. I guess you are not really asking questions but making accusations. I am afraid that I do not know all the answers about just exactly how things happened. However I do know that there is such a thing as evil, that it did enter this world and that it has had a negative impact in many ways. I guess the simplier (and crueler) way would be to accept that it is all just natural – part of the evolutionary process.)

"That's the second time you've called Dawkins my prophet, and it's wearing thin. I listened to the interview you're referring to, and yes, I winced when he said he's not interested in free will. I don't believe he meant that, except insofar as he was unprepared for the question. He was, after all, having to keep up with his opponent's misrepresentation of genetic determinism, and bulldozer tactics, (the boot on the other foot?) while formulating a response. He was flustered - a spectacle I wouldn't relish on either side."

Indeed he was. Really surprising when he is supposed to be the guy who has written the book that is going to change the world! And who has this proof that God is a delusion. I'm sorry but if one of the world's greatest intellects was not prepared to comment on 'free will' (and yes I do think he meant exactly what he said) it does not say a lot for his other comprehensive theory of everything.

Not sure what's wrong with Mark ch.4. It's fairly straightforward. Have another go….

594. Comment #11906 by MartinSGill

"Can you therefore explain to me why religion appears to encourage crime?"

No – and I don't think it does. Simplistic correlations just do not work like that for me.

" Either religion encourages crime, or religion is the result of crime. Which is it?"

Neither.

"You mentioned that the Spanish inquisition wasn't moral. I beg to differ. The inquisition was moral. It was highly moral, as was keeping slaves and all sorts of other things. The point is that societies morals change. The Spanish inquisition did all it could to prevent herecy and in particular, as you pointed out, they pursued people that wanted to read the bible. This was because reading the bible lead to herecy; people questioning the church, and since the church represented god, by questioning the church people questioned god. The inquisitors were therefore on solid moral ground in their pursuit of these heretics, morals provided by the church and hence god"

Sorry. The Spanish Inquisition was not moral in the sense that it followed biblical morality. I thought that was what we were discussing. In the sense that you write above – everything and everyone is moral. !

"Our morals do not come from the bible."

Only partly right. I think they come from both the Bible and the inbuilt moral sense we have.

596. Comment #11908 by Ole
"
"WOW, this is really getting long.. (soon 600)."
Yeah. Sorry about that. I would have hoped that the other articles would have been posted and we could have discussed them under other threads. But I understand why so we have to live with this.

Let me just comment on one single point in your last article, David A Robertson:

"Bach died 1750, and Darwin published his book 100 years later (1959). If you go a bit forward from that, I guess you will find non-believers among great composers. Why? Well, the "Zeitgeist" changed, Darwin's Dangerous Idea was working."
Interesting how now the concept of Zeitgeist has become the latest idea. Do you not think it is a little bit patronizing and supremacist to think that if only Bach had been born after Darwin he would have been an atheist?! By the way we have now had 150 years since Darwin – could you tell me the atheist composers who have arisen in this brave new world?

The fact that you are an atheist would not prevent me listening to you or playing your music. Although I still would pray that God would open your eyes so that you could thank him for the creative gift he has given you! Tot Ziens!

Other Comments by David A Robertson

278. Comment #11920 by Ewan D on December 8, 2006 at 7:26 am

David,

If you think beauty is not sufficiently well attended to by evolutionary psychology, you've got to give examples which falsify the premise that the apprehension of beauty and the corollary of wellbeing has its roots in survival. Pinker explores this territory in 'How the Mind Works' and the neuroscientist Ramachandran reports on the clear, survival promoting correlations between structured stimulus and reward.

Beauty is a slippery substance to pin down, but but as an artist myself I'm following scientific findings with interest, and find none of them offensive to my sensitivities. The quote from Solomon is offensive, in the way it dismisses Attenborough-style breadth of awareness.

All things dull and ugly
All creatures short and squat
All things rude and nasty
The Lord God made the lot

Each little snake that poisons
Each little wasp that stings
He made their brutish venom
He made their horrid wings

All things sick and cancerous
All evil great and small
All things foul and dangerous
The Lord God made them all

Each nasty little hornet
East beastly little squid
Who made the spikey urchin
Who made the sharks, He did

All things scabbed and ulcerous
All pox both great and small
Putrid, foul, and gangrenous
The Lord God made them all

AMEN

Author: Eric Idle
Originated From: Monty Python Sings

Other Comments by Ewan D

279. Comment #11921 by Thrall on December 8, 2006 at 7:34 am

Oh man, you are starting to make me mad. Athiest Composers (either agnostic, pantheistic, or otherwise not bible believing christains) as follows:

Beethoven (pantheistic)
Bjork
Brahms (agnostic)
Dead Kennedys (obviously)
Ani DeFranco (again)
Danny Elfman (composer)
Brian Eno
John Lennon
Johnny Rotten
Nick Mason (pink floyd)
Dave Matthews (Ha! like the troll on these boards)
Mozart (freemason)
Trent Reznor (NIN, Obvious athiest "god is dead, and no one cares. If there is a hell, i'll see you there")
Tool (duh)
Roger Waters (pf)

Now a christian will argue that most of the modern bands who are "athiest" don't write "great music". I would argue against this.

Don't tell ME that my religion has anything to do with my musical talent. What, do you believe in Muse's now? Do i have to worship Zeus so i can be inspired by my muse? How pompous of you.

Maybe all of those X-Tian bands who are writing middle of the road music that is bland and uninspired should BLAME GOD for writing shi**y songs.

Other Comments by Thrall

280. Comment #11922 by heymrrain on December 8, 2006 at 7:48 am

David, I did enjoy my lunch, thank you.

I apologise for my comparison of the bible with other books. Forgive me if I'm wrong, but your reply suggests that you may be a biblical literalist - if that is the case I will bear that in mind, and if not, I'm sure you'll correct me.

And I don't dismiss the Gospels out of hand, as you suggest I do. However, I also don't judge them as 'good historical evidence' as you clearly do.

Many fictional books nowadays are based in and around real places, sometimes involving real people, and real events. That doesn't mean that they are a good historical evidence of something that actually happened.

Furthermore, we know from the sustainability of modern 'urban myths' that many people hold things true because they have been told them. These things need not have happened long ago. That does not mean that they are true.

Just because a story is presented as non-fiction, does not mean that it is true (the film 'Fargo' being a memorable example for those who like fims!)

People may write about things as if they're true simply because they believe that to be the case.

The Gospels may or may not have been written by people who believed that what they were writing was true. That doesn't make it so.

Other Comments by heymrrain

281. Comment #11923 by BillySands on December 8, 2006 at 7:56 am

 avatarThanks for the song Ewan :-)
I couldn't remember where I had heard it before.

David, do you have anything to say on the fossil record and a perfect creation?

Would you like to explain your understanding on how a prophecy to Ahaz reffers to jesus?

This may be the only time I agree with you. The gospels do claim to be historical documents. But like any document they must be scrutinised. They fail on many details though - remember quirinius? If you are going to respond to any of this, I would prefer your views on the first 2 topics

Other Comments by BillySands

282. Comment #11926 by Ewan D on December 8, 2006 at 8:15 am

'However I do know that there is such a thing as evil, that it did enter this world and that it has had a negative impact in many ways.

You know it, do you?

But you're wrong, woefully, lamentably, and palpably in the way you equate evil with earthquakes. It takes such a leap of backward thinking to accommodate such a myth that the sensation is one of suffocation. Yet it is the only way you can rationalise otherwise needless, pitiless suffering.

'I guess the simplier (and crueler) way would be to accept that it is all just natural – part of the evolutionary process.'

It is simpler to accept because at least it is coherent, even if it doesn't make a great story. I'd like to maintain a distinction between truth and fiction, even if your need for narrative overwhelms your objectivity.

I won't whine about your reply being evasive, but I get the feeling that you're now just going through the motions. I'll find someone else to deave with my questions.

Other Comments by Ewan D

283. Comment #11928 by MartinSGill on December 8, 2006 at 8:27 am

 avatarBlast... the comment system seems to have lost my post.. and it was such a wonderful post. It would have converted all the world instantly.

Instead.. i'll have to write it again.. and it will be a mere smidgen of the post it was.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

284. Comment #11929 by Ewan D on December 8, 2006 at 8:30 am

'I guess the simplier (and crueler) way would be to accept that it is all just natural – part of the evolutionary process.'

David thinks evil has a supernatural basis which is in keeping with God's will.

Other Comments by Ewan D

285. Comment #11930 by Ewan D on December 8, 2006 at 8:32 am

Bad luck Martin - that's so maddening!

Billy - I was glad to find it online. Good ol' Google!

Other Comments by Ewan D

286. Comment #11931 by Ewan D on December 8, 2006 at 8:42 am

By the way David, when you ask God if you are riven with wishful thinking and self deception, what does he say? And when you ask him, 'Lord, am I just talking to myself?' what then?

I wish I had a direct line to the source of all truth.

Other Comments by Ewan D

287. Comment #11932 by Eamonn Shute on December 8, 2006 at 8:44 am

 avatarThrall, you missed a number of great classical composers off your list, here are some more:- http://www.atheists.org/Atheism/roots/musicians/

Other Comments by Eamonn Shute

288. Comment #11933 by BillySands on December 8, 2006 at 8:59 am

 avatarMartin, even although your post never made it, it was so wonderful that the fact you wrote it prevented me from believing that god had silenced you.
Indeed, when you do post it god will disappear in a puff of logic :-)

Other Comments by BillySands

289. Comment #11934 by Roy_H on December 8, 2006 at 9:01 am

 avatarRalph ( pronounced Rayf) Vaughan- Williams, apart from writing symphonies etc, also wrote church music and even edited the English Hymnal , he too was an atheist. He once said: "Why shouldn't an atheist write a good mass? "

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290. Comment #11942 by MartinSGill on December 8, 2006 at 11:28 am

 avatarNo – and I don't think it does. Simplistic correlations just do not work like that for me.

Just because a correlation "do[es] not work" for you doesn't mean it isn't true or correct. Discarding the evidence as simplistic is no different then discarding your belief in the bible as simplistic.

Of course, the next thing you'll say is that simplistic correlations like temperature with pressure "do not work" for you.

Just because the correlation doesn't fit into your world view doesn't mean it doesn't need explination. Religion my not be one of the prime variables in the correlation, maybe it's a side effect or a sympathetic variable. The true correlation could be with social deprivation, poverty or lack of education. With the exception of the USA the most religious countries in teh world tend to be the poorer countries, look at the african continent. High rates of religion, high rates of poverty, crime (civial wars, war lords etc).

The while you certainly cannot say with certainty that it's religion that leads to crime, teh fact that where ever you find high crime rates and high poverty and deprivation you also find high rates of religion.

Could it be that religion is no more than a comfort blankt then? When there is trouble when the situation is dire, people can't run to mummy, so they run to their imaginary friend god. Afterall he promises that no matter how bad life is here, it will be wonderful once you're dead.

Sorry. The Spanish Inquisition was not moral in the sense that it followed biblical morality. I thought that was what we were discussing. In the sense that you write above – everything and everyone is moral.!

Rubbish. The inquisators were perfectly moral as decreed by the church, and the church got it's morals from the same place you do, the bible and your own moral sense.

The fact that the bible is used to justify people's bigotry and that they believe they are doing what is "morally" right lends massive weight to the notion that morals come from society and from nurture. The only reason you don't stand outside abortion clinics with stupid plackards or a gun in your hand is that you were taught the bible in a different way.

And that's the point. The bible can be made to say anything you want it to say, all you have to do is pick those passages you want, put just the emphasis you want on those passages that suit your own bigotry or lack thereof. The bible is useless as a guide ot anything, because it can mean anything, be used to justify anything.

You could argue that the church of the spanish inquisition was smarter than you. They at least it seems accepted that this was the case, and therefore didn't want people reading the bible, that way people would believe what they are told, and not be able to read the bible and realise that it says whatever they want it to say.

Do you, like most christians, claim your moral sense comes from God? If so, why then is your moral sense different to that of people 1000 years ago, or 2000 years ago? Slavery was ok, the predudice againsts gays, women, non-believers, the beastial punishments given to people for almost trivial offences. The rape and murder of women and childern, as ordered by god in the old testment?

If someone ordered that that today, to you, would you do it? I'd certainly hope not. Maybe the moral sense god handed out 1000 years ago is different and he had to change it to get it right. Of course, that can't be, since god is perfect, and it should have been perfect to start with. So why do people now have a different moral sense?

In contrast to religion I actually think my moral sense comes from society around me, nurture and to some extent also from evolution.

The difference as I see it between religious "moderates" and religious "fundamentalists" is that the fundamentalists reject our current morals and want to follow the morals of a bye-gone age, and they can use the bible to support their view. If the bible really is the word of god and the our moral sense comes from god, then why do their morals and yours differ? Or maybe you do support the murder of doctors? I doubt it.

Both you and the spanish inquisators and the crusaders and the witch burners and the slavers and all the other bigots in history, the warriors that raped and murdered in god's name, the people that cheered at the punishments and threw the stones with all the others, had access to the same bible you have and to the same god-given sense of morality that you have, yet they were no where near moral by our own standards.

I'd argue that the only possible conclusion is that morals are shaped by society, and nurture.

If then our morality comes not from the bible, or are all Indians immoral by default since they don't believe in the bible, and our moral sense does not come from god, what use is the bible as anything other than literature?

Other Comments by MartinSGill

291. Comment #11966 by Paul Creber on December 8, 2006 at 3:57 pm

David, as I read more of your posts, I proceed from puzzlement, to bewilderment, to bafflement, to outright astonishment.
You refer to shades of grey. Is this the sort of thing you had in mind?

In Post 576, you commented: "If the evidence for evolution is as strong as you say it is (and I am inclined to believe that you are correct)…"
In Post 587 you state: "The reason I cannot comment on evolution is that I am ignorant about it."

In Post 580 you wrote: "Of these three positions I think the evidence appears to be overwhelmingly against the first."
In Post 587 you write: "I am actually open to all three possibilities."

In Post 555 you stated: "I have never argued that everything can be explained by 'God did it'.
In your article dated November 15 you wrote: "…as I listened to the sound of the plain singing of the psalms of the Bible, and heard the waves of the sea splashing against the walls of the church, it struck me what a fool I had been. Of course God existed. Nothing else made sense. You cannot explain beauty or evil, creation or humanity, time nor space, without God."

Finally, in Post 437 you commented: "Faith does not entitle me to argue that black is white…"
Please allow me to observe that you have apparently chosen to seize that entitlement with conspicuous enthusiasm.

Other Comments by Paul Creber

292. Comment #11981 by David A Robertson on December 9, 2006 at 12:14 am

598. Comment #11920 by Ewan D o

"Beauty is a slippery substance to pin down, but but as an artist myself I'm following scientific findings with interest, and find none of them offensive to my sensitivities. The quote from Solomon is offensive, in the way it dismisses Attenborough-style breadth of awareness."

Actually I would suggest it is the other way round. Solomon recognizes that beauty is more than gene deep. Seeing it as a mechanistic response is for me profoundly depressing and intellectually a very unsatisfying explanation.


599. Comment #11921 by Thrall
Sorry for making you mad – but it is a bit rich claiming that every non bible believing composer is an atheist! Smacks a little bit of desperation. And sorry but I was using the word composer in its normal sense not as song writer. So that takes out most of your list (by the way please feel free to keep Johnny Rotten as a fine example of atheist composing!.

"Don't tell ME that my religion has anything to do with my musical talent. What, do you believe in Muse's now? Do i have to worship Zeus so i can be inspired by my muse? How pompous of you."

I'm not sure any religoun would want to claim the responsibility of your talent. Besides which if you read what I said then you would realize that I was claiming that your talent has nothing to do with religion but is rather a reflection of the fact that you are made in the image of God.

"Maybe all of those X-Tian bands who are writing middle of the road music that is bland and uninspired should BLAME GOD for writing shi**y songs. "

I personally have little time for 'Christian' music and doubt there is such a thing – any more than there is a Christian potato. All music is at its source God given.

600. Comment #11922 by heymrrain

Could you please tell me what a biblical literalist is and I will answer your question? I am not sure what you are asking.

And again you are missing the simple and obvious point about the difference between the Gospels and Lord of the Rings. The Gospel do not claim to be fiction based on historical events – they claim to be history. That does not answer the question as to whether they are good or accurate history but it does get rid of this silly rejoinder that all atheists make – why should I accept the gospels as history any more than Lord of the Rings.

601. Comment #11923 by BillySands

"David, do you have anything to say on the fossil record and a perfect creation?"

No.

"Would you like to explain your understanding on how a prophecy to Ahaz reffers to jesus?"

No. It is perfectly clear from the context and from Matthew. If you have studied this subject as you claim you should be fully aware that biblical prophecy usually comes in with the 'now and not yet. Your view is clearly that a prophecy addressed to one person cannot possibly mean anything or refer to another. I'm afraid that whilst that is your view it is not the view of the authors nor does it make a whole lot of sense. But I guess it provides you with a framework to continue to delude yourself that the Bible is false.

602. Comment #11926 by Ewan D

"But you're wrong, woefully, lamentably, and palpably in the way you equate evil with earthquakes. It takes such a leap of backward thinking to accommodate such a myth that the sensation is one of suffocation. Yet it is the only way you can rationalise otherwise needless, pitiless suffering. "

Did I miss something? Where did I say that earthquakes were evil? Evil is something moral and as far as I am aware earthquakes are not moral beings. If you mean do I believe that evil in human beings has consequences. The answer is yes. Our evil taints everything – including the planet. I think you will find that global warming is not just an evolutionary process but a consequence of humans playing God and being greedy.


606. Comment #11931 by Ewan D

"By the way David, when you ask God if you are riven with wishful thinking and self deception, what does he say? And when you ask him, 'Lord, am I just talking to myself?' what then?"

Usually nothing. He usually just expects me to think and to use the mind he has given me. Plus he wants me to listen to what he has already said – both in the creation and more especially in his word.

"I wish I had a direct line to the source of all truth."

You do. If only you would ask. And listen.

610. Comment #11942 by MartinSGill

"The while you certainly cannot say with certainty that it's religion that leads to crime, teh fact that where ever you find high crime rates and hi