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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

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301. Comment #12086 by MartinSGill on December 10, 2006 at 11:30 am

 avatarI'm still reading Robin Lane Fox's Unauthorised Version and it's an excellent book.

It actually has some positive reviews by christian newspapers as well, which I think is rather telling.

I'm actually learning rather alot about the origins and authenticity of the bible. While it confirms many of my views that the bible is mostly manufactured, it's also really interesting in revealing which parts of it are probably mostly accurate and also how and who changed the bible. Fox does a good job of not claiming knowledge over the motivations of the editors, merely that they did the editing.

I strongly recommend it to our co-debater Rev. Roberston, as an historian himself he might appreciate the work of a highly respected authority in ancient history more than a simple layman like myself.

While I was always sure that all the gospels were pretty much manufactured, I was rather suprised to learn that John's at least was probably originally written by the disciple. The others, Fox claims, were annonymous and matthew, commonly believed to be the first of the gospels is probably contrived and based upon the work of "Mark", who's authorship itself cannot be determined and likely was anonymous.

It's like reading a detective novel... who the hell wrote the gospels (and the rest of the bible)?

I think I also now understand why David claims Luke as an historian. He may very well have been a chronicler at least. While the name "Luke" itself is uncertain and the work orginally probably annonymous, Fox is certain that Luke was a companion of Paul's and certainly not an original disciple, in that sense David is right, he is an historian, having no first hand knowledge of the events he's writing about.

The fact that Matthew's gospel (certainly the name of the author) may be a deliberate deceit, might also explain the difference in the genaeologies between Matthew and Luke. Matthew's at least is probably fake.

That still doesn't explain how Luke got his information. Which carpenter knows is family tree to 20+ generations? I don't think somerset house existed in those days, and even somerset house can't trace 20+ generations back for most people.

In any case, Fox's book makes realy interesting reading.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

302. Comment #12088 by Ole on December 10, 2006 at 12:53 pm

 avatarMartin, thanks for this info.

Does this book also talk about bishop Irenaues (130-202) from Lyon? He was instrumental in establishing the four gospels. Here is a quote from him:
There actually are only four authentic gospels. And this is obviously true because there are four corners of the universe and there are four principal winds, and therefore there can be only four gospels that are authentic. These, besides, are written by Jesus' true followers.

Irenaues was in strong oppositions to the Gnostic teaching. He even made reference to a Gnostic gospel which portrayed Judas in a positive light. (This gospel was recently revealed - see the Gospel of Judas)

O.J.

Other Comments by Ole

303. Comment #12093 by MartinSGill on December 10, 2006 at 2:08 pm

 avatarIreneaus is mentioned. He's the first recorded person c. 180 ce to have names Luke's gospel.

A contemporary of his is mentioned as an example of how common place the forging of christian letters and documents was at the time. Ignatieus, the Bishop of Antioch (c 110ce), had a number of his letters "expanded" by fakes, whose authenticity (or rather lack thereof) wasn't finally accapted until 1646. (p130 of Unauthrosed Version, penguin 2006 ed.).

Fox goes on to mention many more examples of christian writings of the time being faked/amended. Not withstanding an acknowledge great scholar of Matthews gospel (GD Kilpatrick, 1946) claiming "the suggestion of deliberate pseudonymity on the part of the evangelist need not cause us qaulms", in effect accepting that Matthews gospel was most certainly not written by Matthew. Kilpatrick goes on to claim forgeries were accepted at the time, which Fox goes on to refute rather nicely with examples of how christians reacted to fakes with christian bishops deposing a christian who "out of love of Paul" created false "Acts of Paul and Thecla" in the 2nd century ce.

And all of that from just selected from 4 pages of the book :P

Other Comments by MartinSGill

304. Comment #12100 by BillySands on December 10, 2006 at 3:23 pm

 avatarHi Martin,
I'll need to get a copy of it too. The early christians certainly liked their forgeries (strange that they don't think their message is believable enought and they feel the need to embelish it) Does it say much about Eusebius? He is suspected of making up the testimony of Flavius Josephus amongst other things.

By the way, I have some genuine relics of Jesus for sale. Any one want to but some genuine jesus fingers? Snap them up, I only have 11 left :-)

Other Comments by BillySands

305. Comment #12159 by MartinSGill on December 11, 2006 at 1:42 am

 avatarHaven't come across Eusebius.

The one criticism I have to level at the book is that it is very compact, with lots of information to absorb, especially for someone like myself who has a working knowledge of the bible but has not studied it exhaustively, so I sometimes miss some of the references, and lose the significance of what is said.

I did discover on the train this morning though that "let he who is without sin cast the first stone", was added in the 4th century ce. This is indicated by the abrupt change of style and flow in the passage itself, but also, more tellingly, by the fact that earlier versions of the text from the 170's ce do not mention this passage at all.

While the passage is certainly in line with contemporary views of Christian teachings, it almost certainly was not said by Jesus, and the entire incident might well have been fabricated.

Ok enough about Fox... this thread is getting a bit off topic I think :)

Other Comments by MartinSGill

306. Comment #12171 by David A Robertson on December 11, 2006 at 4:10 am

Thanks for the comments. A few answers below...


613. Comment #11986 by hopeful
"David Robertson.

You say you want intelligent debate.

Please answer the following questions:

1. Do you believe there are or have been people who have prayed for a cure whose prayers have been fulfilled?"

Yes.

"2. Do you believe there are or have been people who are amputees who have prayed for a limb to be restored whose prayers have been fulfilled?"

Don't know.

3. If you answered Yes to (1) and No to (2) then can you please explain why this is the case.

Not applicable.

614. Comment #11990 by Joadist

"The Gospels do not claim anything."

Go and read the Gospels and then you might be able to comment on them. The Gospels are full of claims – here are a few that you might spot. Jesus was born of a virgin, Jesus was crucified, Jesus rose from the dead, Jesus performed miracles, Jesus taught the sermon on the Mount.
"Until you can present an external peer review that accepts the Gospels as a legitimate history textbook, the Gospels remain fiction."

What do you mean by this? What criteria would satisfy you?

617. Comment #12006 by Ewan D

"Are earthquakes caused by man's evil or not?"

Don't know.


"If everybody on the planet converted to the free church and repented, would earthquakes stop bringing classroom masonry down on the heads of children?"

No. I would hope that everyone would not convert to the Free Church. I would rather they converted to Jesus Christ. And the only perfect environment we will get will be in the new heavens and the new earth.

"I can see that we've plundered and polluted every natural resource through selfish interest. I can hardly bear to think about that truth. But it is predominantly the poorest nations who we see suffering the consequences (when the media bother to report it.) Where's the divine fairness in that? Does God see humanity as a collective entity, so he doesn't care which section reaps what another sows?"

You seem to be implying that God will or should judge everything and bring justice now. He does not do so. However he has set a day when he will judge the whole world by the man he has appointed.

"And please, have you watched E. O. Wilson on www.meaningoflife.tv yet? I wouldn't insist if I thought you'd hate it. There are many other interesting speakers there, including religious ones. (Though no fundamentalists. The emphasis seems to be on quick, not dead thinkers.) "

Thanks for the info re the site. Loved it and am really enjoying listening to different points of view.

618. Comment #12010 by MartinSGill on December 9,

"Prove that the Spanish Inquisition got its morals from the Bible.


Prove that you do."

Oh dear. Every time you get asked something are you going to respond tit for tat? Anyway I would not state that the only place people get morals is from the Bible. We are all born with a moral sense (what the Bible would call the 'law of God' written on our hearts). That moral sense has been perverted and what the Bible does is redirect it towards the absolute source, God. In terms of proof that I get my own personal morals from the Bible – let me give you one example. I believe it is wrong for me to sleep around with other women than my wife because the Bible indicates to me that monogamy is morally right. I cannot see any substantial reason for believing that other than the Bible.


"If god were on the side of the poor, he'd not let them suffer that much."

In the simplistic literalist world that you live in, But meanwhile back on planet earth….

""And that's the point. The bible can be made to say anything you want it to say"

Only if you are stupid or deceitful.


I see. Your lack of tolerance finally shows itself for what it is, and you prove my earlier point that religion is inclusive and hence anything but tolerant."

Let me see. You think all religions are stupid and deceitful and you think that this is tolerant! If I say that two and two is five should I be tolerated as a good mathematician. If I make the bible say whatever I want should I be tolerated as a good theologian?

"Basically every single christian sect that does not align its views with your own is "stupid and deceitful". Don't agree with the pope? well... he's "stupid and deceitful". Don't agree with greek orthodoxy? Well, they're stupid and deceitful."

Oh dear. Can I suggest that you respond to what is being said and please do not respond to what is not being said. I did not say that those who disagree with me are de facto stupid or deceitful. I did say that anyone who thinks that you can make the bible say whatever you want it to say is being stupid and deceitful. I am sure that you will be able to work out the difference.

"There would also not be a dozen different modern versions of it. "

I think that you will find that these are translations. The Bible was written in Greek and Hebrew (and a little Aramaic).
620. Comment #12023 by Ole

Thanks. That was helpful.

621. Comment #12086 by MartinSGill

Thanks for the recommendation. I think I will order Fox's book – although I suspect it is no different from others I have in a similar genre.

"That still doesn't explain how Luke got his information. Which carpenter knows is family tree to 20+ generations? I don't think somerset house existed in those days, and even somerset house can't trace 20+ generations back for most people."

This is the difficulty in reading things through the cultural lens of 21st century Western World. Family trees were essential and vital to Jews of the 1st century. Please do not allow either chronological or cultural snobbery (what's wrong with carpentars?) to distort your judgement.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

307. Comment #12175 by BillySands on December 11, 2006 at 4:34 am

 avatarDavid,
Have you guven any thought to paleopathology yet?
It is important in light of your views on the fall.

Other Comments by BillySands

308. Comment #12182 by BillySands on December 11, 2006 at 5:07 am

 avatarAnd I would still like you to explain your views on prophecy and context

Other Comments by BillySands

309. Comment #12185 by MartinSGill on December 11, 2006 at 5:17 am

 avatarOh dear, Dave is resorting to Ad Hominem again.


Thanks for the recommendation. I think I will order Fox's book – although I suspect it is no different from others I have in a similar genre.


You're welcome. I hope you enjoy it, although I suspect that like others you will reject conflicts with your view based on your belief and not on the evidence.


Let me see. You think all religions are stupid and deceitful and you think that this is tolerant! If I say that two and two is five should I be tolerated as a good mathematician. If I make the bible say whatever I want should I be tolerated as a good theologian?


Ad Hominem, again! Tut Tut David.

Don't put words in my mouth to support your own flawed arguments. I consider religion to be extremely intelligent, it has to be to have survived as long as it has. But you are correct in that I think it is deceitful.

I can respect religion for what it can do, despite being vehemently opposed to what it does. In the same way I can respect a charismatic tyrant's amazing skill manipulating a crowd while loathing the guy for what he does with that skill.

You're considered a good theologian if you get the bible to agree with what the head of your religious order says is truth. If you as a theologian disagree you run the risk of being labelled a heretic and excommunicated.

Just ask Copernicus and Galileo what happens if you disagree with accepted religious views. Or that catholic cardinal/bishop(?) who was recently excommunicated for ordaining married men. Or the Spanish Inquisition where you correctly pointed out that those people that wanted to read the bible and see the message for themselves were hunted down and tortured/killed.


That moral sense has been perverted and what the Bible does is redirect it towards the absolute source, God. In terms of proof that I get my own personal morals from the Bible – let me give you one example. I believe it is wrong for me to sleep around with other women than my wife because the Bible indicates to me that monogamy is morally right. I cannot see any substantial reason for believing that other than the Bible.


You're moral sense might be perverted and in need of salvation, but mine isn't, but thank you for providing proof of my assertion. You believe it is wrong to be unfaithful. And.. you are greatly pleased to discover that the bible says the same thing. Hurray... you must be doing the will of God.

Those Christians that believe in polygamy like to quote this passage from Matthew 25 to support their beliefs:

1. "At that time the kingdom of heaven will be like ten virgins who took their lamps and went out to meet the bridegroom.
2. Five of them were foolish and five were wise.
3. The foolish ones took their lamps but did not take any oil with them.
4. The wise, however, took oil in jars along with their lamps.
5. The bridegroom was a long time in coming, and they all became drowsy and fell asleep.
6. "At midnight the cry rang out: 'Here's the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!'
7. "Then all the virgins woke up and trimmed their lamps.
8. The foolish ones said to the wise, 'Give us some of your oil; our lamps are going out.'
9. " 'No,' they replied, 'there may not be enough for both us and you. Instead, go to those who sell oil and buy some for yourselves.'
10. "But while they were on their way to buy the oil, the bridegroom arrived. The virgins who were ready went in with him to the wedding banquet. And the door was shut.
11. "Later the others also came. 'Sir! Sir!' they said. 'Open the door for us!'
12. "But he replied, 'I tell you the truth, I don't know you.'
13. "Therefore keep watch, because you do not know the day or the hour.

They believe that polygamy is right and that Jesus had no problem with it. Hence the parable about the man who slept with and married the 5 virgins.

Your morals are shaped by society. Your religious conviction is what allows you to find confirmation of your morality in the bible and explain away those parts that disagree with your morality.

Are those Christians not stupid and deceitful as you stated? They made the bible say what they wanted, just as you make the bible say what you want.


This is the difficulty in reading things through the cultural lens of 21st century Western World. Family trees were essential and vital to Jews of the 1st century. Please do not allow either chronological or cultural snobbery (what's wrong with carpentars?) to distort your judgement.


Granted it is hard for us to know what the cultural context of the words from so long ago might mean. That of course should be an even more convincing argument that the bible should not be trusted.

Why do you see insults where there are none? I mentioned carpenters because that was a common yet also highly skilled profession, possibly akin to an engineer or doctor in our current society. The point is thought that while a good profession a carpenter is not a significant person. Lineage of kings and princes one might accept as being carefully recorded, but not everyone is that important.

I do not believe genealogy to have been any more important to the average Jew in the 1st century than it is today. Only for the sake of the so-called prophecies is the descent from David important. If I am wrong please provide me some references that show otherwise.


In the simplistic literalist world that you live in, But meanwhile back on planet earth….


Ad Hominem, again! Tut Tut David.

It's ironic that you should call me a literalist when your entire foundation for belief in a god is a work of literature.

The single most disingenuous and deceitful tactic that theists use is the notion that what is written in the bible needs to be interpreted. To paraphrase your comments... please do not allow either educational or cultural snobbery to distort your reading of the bible.

The bible was written for everyone, as the word of god (if it is such) should be, therefore one would expect it to have been aimed at knowledge and comprehension level of the lowest common reader, hence the use of parables as examples, to try and relate otherwise complex (for the time) teachings into simple forms.

When Jesus says to his followers that all their prayers will be answered, then are we to assume that the crowd all went home thinking "hmm... He obviously didn't mean that literally, there must be a deeper meaning there." The fallacy in that view should be obvious, most people would have gone home thinking "Cool, if I follow this guy I'll get my prayers answered."

Other Comments by MartinSGill

310. Comment #12188 by MartinSGill on December 11, 2006 at 5:29 am

 avatarTo address a specific point I accidentally skipped:

I believe it is wrong for me to sleep around with other women than my wife [...]. I cannot see any substantial reason for believing that other than the Bible.


My condolences. I on the other hand can see lots of reasons for not sleeping around that have nothing to do with the bible.

First and foremost is loyalty, followed by respect for my partner. Those are the emotional reasons.

There are practical reasons as well, not least in that is it easier to be a good husband to a single wife than it is to be a good husband to many wives.

None of this requires the bible, and anyone who "cannot see any substantial reason for believing that other than the Bible" is in my view a poorer person for it.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

311. Comment #12193 by Ewan D on December 11, 2006 at 7:10 am

"Are earthquakes caused by man's evil or not?"

'Don't know.'

That's not good enough David. Your theory is on the ropes and you know it. Although you won't commit yourself, your demand for 'why' explanations for human carnage and suffering rules out the possibility that earthquakes just happen as a regrettable feature of plate tectonics.

I submit that your lifelong, well nurtured and groundless intuition that everything relates to a moral narritive is at the heart of all your erroneous thinking.

Your intellect is unsatisfied with 'how' explanations. Unfortunately that same insatiable intellect has to settle for not knowing, when grievously inadequate 'why' explanations threaten to cause you cognitive dissonance.

But we press you on your rationalisations in the hope that some of the clear absurdities will shake you out of your complacency - some hope. We lead you to water but you trot back to the mirage and pray that your thirst will be quenched when you die.

I say that, but I'm gratified that you followed the link I gave, and enjoyed the diversity of interviewees. Even if one atheist intellectual, Dawkins, fails to give time to a question on free will on one occasion, it is rather hasty of you to dance on objectivism's grave.

Watch that your position as father and pastor doesn't preclude you from being open to doubt, (of the constructive variety) and exhilarated by it. It's an honest faculty and refreshing when encountered in others. Beware of psychologically astute propogandists like C.S. Lewis who would twist your faculty for inquiry and force you to cling foolishly to the Bible whenever questions arise. It is a sorry spectacle.

Yrs,
Uncle Screwtape

Other Comments by Ewan D

312. Comment #12194 by Ewan D on December 11, 2006 at 7:37 am

And I agree with MartinSGill on the question of fidelity.

Once again, David uses his trusty crowbar to create a gap for God and inadvertantly puts the rest of us in the uncomfortable position of actually being more moral at heart than one of God's chosen. Own goal.

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313. Comment #12204 by The Spaghetti Monster on December 11, 2006 at 8:40 am

see

Other Comments by The Spaghetti Monster

314. Comment #12205 by Ewan D on December 11, 2006 at 9:01 am

David,

I said "I wish I had a direct line to the source of all truth." You said 'You do. If only you would ask. And listen.'

But I'm afraid your personal testimony isn't that promising: when you pray for answers, what does the source of all truth tell you?
'Usually nothing. He usually just expects me to think and to use the mind he has given me. Plus he wants me to listen to what he has already said – both in the creation and more especially in his word.'

What does 'usually nothing' mean? Is it embarrassing to admit that the answer is actually ALWAYS nothing. You have never received a coherent message, delivered unambiguously to your mind by the source of all truth?

Lacking such guidance, faced with silence but cocooned in meditative prayerful cosiness you infer what must be expected of you - just to keep using your mind, and keep focussed on the bright and beautiful in nature and keep reading the good book. You pass this off as a message from a deity, and think I'll accept it.

I'm not surprised your son finds more succour in Slayer than prayer. He prefers wall-free head-banging.

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315. Comment #12207 by JamusPsi on December 11, 2006 at 9:07 am

He decries the inefficacy of your arguments- but he does not posit any of his own. Reading his article (though I admit I skimmed the last few paragraphs, aghast) I did not find a single counter-argument to those presented in your book, excepting a gross blindness to the social stigma of abandoning one's religious faith, and a denial of painful reality: that being anything other than a Christian is political suicide in America.

I don't think he read your book.

Brian

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316. Comment #12209 by BillySands on December 11, 2006 at 9:22 am

 avatarI must say that I am not suprised that we can see what is wrong with sleeping around without resorting to a book of questionable morality. One good thing about atheism is that I reasilse that I am responsible for the consequences of my own actions, and should treat people well. No god is going to wipe away any hurt I cause someone, so I should always be careful (I wish to point out though that this has no bearing on my innate moral sense of right and wrong). Too many christians however think they can do something nasty and ask god for forgiveness and everything is fine. They ignore the consequences of their actions.
If I got my morals from the bible, I would be a racially intolerant homophobe, who is up for a bit of rape and ott punishment of my slave and women folk. Thankfully many christians dont get their morality from the bible either (shame that they dont realise that)

Other Comments by BillySands

317. Comment #12212 by BillySands on December 11, 2006 at 9:31 am

 avatarBrian,
As an ex christian, I found many so called christian friends (not all) abandoned me when I became an atheist. One of my friends sisters (now an atheist) was abandonned by many of her christian friends (while still a christian) for coming out as a lesbean. She is getting married and her father refuses to go to the sevice. My friend (an atheist) on the other hand looks at how depressed christianity (and christians) made her and compares that with how happy she is now and is glad for her. There is just something inherently evil about people who would have someone be so unhappy. So abandoning faith or going against the small minded religious way in the UK can also be social suicide.

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318. Comment #12439 by David A Robertson on December 12, 2006 at 2:39 am

630. Comment #12185 by MartinSGill

"You're considered a good theologian if you get the bible to agree with what the head of your religious order says is truth. If you as a theologian disagree you run the risk of being labelled a heretic and excommunicated. "

But in a good democratic Protestant tradition we do not have a 'head'. Indeed there is a strong case to be argued that without Protestantism there would have been no democracy…

"Just ask Copernicus and Galileo what happens if you disagree with accepted religious views. "

I would suggest you read your history of science a bit more carefully. Copernicus and Galileo were disagreeing with the accepted scientific views of their day. It was of course stupid for the church to get involved – but at that point the Church did seem to think (wrongly) that it should control everything.


"You're moral sense might be perverted and in need of salvation, but mine isn't, but thank you for providing proof of my assertion. You believe it is wrong to be unfaithful. And.. you are greatly pleased to discover that the bible says the same thing."

I am not sure whether you are deliberately distorting or just misunderstanding. I believe it is wrong to be unfaithful BECAUSE the bible says so. I believe that God knows best when it comes to human beings and morality and I am quite happy to bow to the makers superior wisdom.

"Those Christians that believe in polygamy like to quote this passage from Matthew 25to support their beliefs:"

I must admit I havn't come across any Christians who believe in polygamy. I guess you move in wider circles.

"They believe that polygamy is right and that Jesus had no problem with it. Hence the parable about the man who slept with and married the 5 virgins."

This is a classic example of reading into the bible what is not there and not being aware of cultural context. The passage does not teach that the man married the five virgins nor that he slept with them.

"Your morals are shaped by society. Your religious conviction is what allows you to find confirmation of your morality in the bible and explain away those parts that disagree with your morality."

That is what you want to believe. Society of course has a great impact but I do not accept that my morals are sourced in society. For example there are aspects of morality in modern society that I completely reject. You on the other hand seem to be a conformist. I prefer to be a radical.


This is the difficulty in reading things through the cultural lens of 21st century Western World. Family trees were essential and vital to Jews of the 1st century. Please do not allow either chronological or cultural snobbery (what's wrong with carpentars?) to distort your judgement.


"Granted it is hard for us to know what the cultural context of the words from so long ago might mean. That of course should be an even more convincing argument that the bible should not be trusted."

No – it is the reason why you should look for the cultural context. And not just quote words out of context.

"Why do you see insults where there are none? I mentioned carpenters because that was a common yet also highly skilled profession, possibly akin to an engineer or doctor in our current society. The point is thought that while a good profession a carpenter is not a significant person. Lineage of kings and princes one might accept as being carefully recorded, but not everyone is that important."

But again you are judging through 'ones' eyes. For the Jewish people lineage for everyone was important.

"I do not believe genealogy to have been any more important to the average Jew in the 1st century than it is today."

But what you 'believe' is irrelevant. It is what is true that counts. You don't want to believe that because it does not suit your argument. But I'm afraid that the evidence is that genealogy was very important in 1st century Judaism.

"It's ironic that you should call me a literalist when your entire foundation for belief in a god is a work of literature. "

Whats wrong with literature? I regard communicaton and the spoken word as one of the greatest things we have and something that distinguishes us from the animals. God revealing himself through the written and spoken word.

"The single most disingenuous and deceitful tactic that theists use is the notion that what is written in the bible needs to be interpreted."

Of course it need to be interpreted. Everything needs to be interpreted. The key question is how you interpret.



"When Jesus says to his followers that all their prayers will be answered, then are we to assume that the crowd all went home thinking "hmm... He obviously didn't mean that literally, there must be a deeper meaning there." The fallacy in that view should be obvious, most people would have gone home thinking "Cool, if I follow this guy I'll get my prayers answered."

One tiny flaw in this argument. Jesus never said such a thing and the Bible never says he did. Basic rule of interpretation number 1 – make sure that you are actually interpreting what is there not what you wish was there, or what you have heard was there.

631. Comment #12188 by MartinSGill

"My condolences. I on the other hand can see lots of reasons for not sleeping around that have nothing to do with the bible."

So can I.

"here are practical reasons as well, not least in that is it easier to be a good husband to a single wife than it is to be a good husband to many wives."

But I was speaking about being a husband – but sleeping around. If sex is just a physical need, an appetite like eating or drinking then hey why shouldn't you sleep with someone else? It means nothing – it is enjoyable? Surely when it feels so good it can't be wrong. If you are saying it is wrong then are you saying it is only wrong for you? Or is the implication that it is wrong for everyone? In that case who are you to judge? What right do you have to impose your morality on other people?

632. Comment #12193 by Ewan D on December 11, 2006 at 7:10 am
"
Your intellect is unsatisfied with 'how' explanations. Unfortunately that same insatiable intellect has to settle for not knowing, when grievously inadequate 'why' explanations threaten to cause you cognitive dissonance. "

Yes – how is not enough. Why is also vital? And I am sorry about my ignorance but there are many things that I do not know and will not pretend to know. My mind is limited.


"atch that your position as father and pastor doesn't preclude you from being open to doubt, (of the constructive variety) and exhilarated by it. It's an honest faculty and refreshing when encountered in others. Beware of psychologically astute propogandists like C.S. Lewis who would twist your faculty for inquiry and force you to cling foolishly to the Bible whenever questions arise. It is a sorry spectacle. "

Ironically I find very little doubt on this forum. People express praise for the idea of doubt but there is very little practice of it. You all know. C S Lewis and others were greatly into doubt – they did not demand that we should know everything for certain.

635. Comment #12205 by Ewan D on December 11, 2006 at 9:01 am


"hat does 'usually nothing' mean? Is it embarrassing to admit that the answer is actually ALWAYS nothing. You have never received a coherent message, delivered unambiguously to your mind by the source of all truth?"

No – I have received many. God is love. Jesus rose from the dead. God is the Creator. Many many more.

"I'm not surprised your son finds more succour in Slayer than prayer. He prefers wall-free head-banging. "

Why do you bring my family into this? And where do you get your information from? And why do you deal with such silly stereotypes? For your info my son is a committed Christian who also enjoys Slayer.
636. Comment #12207 by JamusPsi on December 11, 2006 at 9:07 am

Brian,

I did read the book and there are numerous arguments put forward in several articles (see www.freechurch.org). Please feel free to read them and to disagree with them.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

319. Comment #12454 by BillySands on December 12, 2006 at 3:31 am

 avatarPaleopathology and prophecy context too much for you to handle then david. Does that Mean I win?

Other Comments by BillySands

320. Comment #12456 by MartinSGill on December 12, 2006 at 3:35 am

 avatar
But in a good democratic Protestant tradition we do not have a 'head'. Indeed there is a strong case to be argued that without Protestantism there would have been no democracy…


You're not a good historian if you think that. Democracy existed in Greece long before Christianity. Protestant beliefs may have encouraged democracy to be adopted in England, but I couldn't say. I'd argue that democracy happened regardless. The oldest known democracy surviving is iceland and their traditions (at the time at least) are not christian let alone protestant. I begin to doubt more and more your claim to be an historian.

The country held up as the leading democracy in the world is the USA, and it has been proven that the founding fathers, the shapers and builders of that democracy were atheists, agnostics and/or deists and most certainly secular.


I must admit I haven't come across any Christians who believe in polygamy. I guess you move in wider circles.


I doubt it. The difference is, I'd argue, that I understand religion better, as is usually the case for an outside observer. I was certain that there had to be Christian polygamists and I was certain they used the bible to justify their views, just as you justify your own. It only took a very quick internet search to find what I wanted.

The fact that is was so easy to find further supports my view that the bible can be used to justify anything you want.


I am not sure whether you are deliberately distorting or just misunderstanding. I believe it is wrong to be unfaithful BECAUSE the bible says so. I believe that God knows best when it comes to human beings and morality and I am quite happy to bow to the makers superior wisdom.


I believe it is wrong to be unfaithful because of my own convictions, as do many others that are atheist and non christian. Hence the bible is not the source of that moral, because otherwise all those 4 billion non Christians would not be similarly inclined. Hence my point stands and it is you that is being "deliberately distorting or just misunderstanding". You have causality the wrong way around. The moral is there regardless, the bible just says the same thing and therefore you seem to think that the moral came from the bible when that is obviously not the case.

One other point. We are talking about being faithful, not about sleeping around. If my partner approved of me sleeping around and I approved of her sleeping around then I wouldn't have any problems with it.

Atheism and humanism are all about tolerance. The guiding factor is that you don't hurt others. Whatever is acceptable and enjoyable to both me and my partner is what we do. That is called consideration and respect.

Our options are only limited by our own feelings and views. Your options are further limited by what people thought was right 2000 years ago.


What right do you have to impose your morality on other people?


None whatsoever. Hence I think polygamy should be legal, as well as gay marriage, abortion, stem-cell research etc.

Even if I didn't agree with them, and I don't agree with polygamy, that does not give me the right to impose my morality, my views, on others, as religion does.

It is religion that tries to impose morality on us and always has.


For example there are aspects of morality in modern society that I completely reject. You on the other hand seem to be a conformist. I prefer to be a radical.


Again, you appear to have things the wrong way around. Religion, much to my irritation, is still the conformists way.

I make my mind up about everything myself. I don't conform to what is written in some 2000 year old rag unless I personally believe it to be correct.

By the sound of your posts your radicalism is towards the elimination of freedoms. Conform to 2000 year old standard. My own radicalism is towards the expansion of freedoms, to allow people to do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt others.

Religion, especially the upsurge in radical religion, is hurting people and society. I can see that and so can many others. I suspect even you can see it. Religion needs to be curbed. It's brainwashing aspects need to be removed.

I don't want it banned though, that goes against my principles, despite the fact that I think it's a load of bollocks. For the same reason I don't want football banned, since I think that's a load of bollocks as well. Being anti-football in this country is almost as dangerous as being anti religion in the US.


"I do not believe genealogy to have been any more important to the average Jew in the 1st century than it is today."

But what you 'believe' is irrelevant. It is what is true that counts. You don't want to believe that because it does not suit your argument. But I'm afraid that the evidence is that genealogy was very important in 1st century Judaism.


A pathetic deflection. You totally ignored my follow on sentence that requested evidence of your belief. Hence, I use your own sentence against you: what you believe is irrelevant, it is what is true that counts.

It's a shame you are too narrow minded to apply that maxim to the bible and religion, which is patently untrue and has been shown to be so almost continuously for the past 2000 years, in point of fact, every time science discovered something new.

The world was not created in 7 days. It was not created 6000 years ago. There was no world encompassing flood. The earth is not the centre of the universe, nor is it flat. Man and woman did not suddenly appear, we evolved.

Then there is the fact that historians and theologians have been arguing about the authenticity of texts ever since they were first written down.

Why are there so many different bibles? Why do some Christian sects include more texts in their bible than others? The truth is that there has been so much manipulation and fabrication in the bible that finding any actual truth becomes highly improbable.


One tiny flaw in this argument. Jesus never said such a thing and the Bible never says he did. Basic rule of interpretation number 1 – make sure that you are actually interpreting what is there not what you wish was there, or what you have heard was there.


You sir are a liar! Either that or you really have never actually read the bible. It seems you are the one to "make sure that you are actually interpreting what is there not what you wish was there, or what you have heard was there." or in your case heard what isn't there!

Matthew 21, King James Version:

21Jesus answered and said unto them, Verily I say unto you, If ye have faith, and doubt not, ye shall not only do this which is done to the fig tree, but also if ye shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; it shall be done.

22And all things, whatsoever ye shall ask in prayer, believing, ye shall receive.


Whats wrong with literature? I regard communicaton and the spoken word as one of the greatest things we have and something that distinguishes us from the animals. God revealing himself through the written and spoken word.


There is nothing wrong with literature. I enjoy it quite a lot. Don't be arrogant, animals have been taught to read simple things, sometimes only shapes, but that's all reading is. Children also need to be taught to read, so that doesn't make them any different from animals. The only difference is that humans are better suited to being able to learn to read. We are better tool users that's all. God has nothing to do with it.

Wales can communicate over entire oceans, maybe even over the entire globe, we need tools to do the same. The communication in wolves is outstanding as in many other animals, as is their social behaviour. Some animals communicate in extremely complex ways. We don't have a monopoly on that. Again, we are just slightly better at it.

The only thing revealed through the written word is the author that wrote it and the details of the time he wrote it in and God certainly didn't write the bible, people did.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

321. Comment #12462 by BillySands on December 12, 2006 at 3:58 am

 avatarThere is a very definate trend here that David ignores any arguements that seriously challenge him, or tries to deflect them on to some irrelevant poin. Incidentally David, what did protestants do with democracy?
"Cold is God's way of telling us to put more catholics on the fire" Lady Whiteadder.
Paleopathology poops on fall theology from a great hieght dont you think? Stay silent if you agree

Other Comments by BillySands

322. Comment #12463 by BillySands on December 12, 2006 at 4:00 am

 avatarThere is a very definate trend here that David ignores any arguements that seriously challenge him, or tries to deflect them on to some irrelevant poin. Incidentally David, what did protestants do with democracy?
"Cold is God's way of telling us to put more catholics on the fire" Lady Whiteadder.
Paleopathology poops on fall theology from a great hieght dont you think? Stay silent if you agree

There may be a problem posting things

Other Comments by BillySands

323. Comment #12464 by BillySands on December 12, 2006 at 4:01 am

 avatarNope, it seems to have sorted itself out

Other Comments by BillySands

324. Comment #12470 by MartinSGill on December 12, 2006 at 4:46 am

 avatarBilly, you mis-quoted... shame on you.

"Cold is God's way of telling us to burn more catholics"

O wait.. what's that noise?

"Oh, the must be the Catholics next door." (Look of outrage from aunt) "I'll just go burn them.".

Guy Fawkes... the world's (well, England's) most infamous Christian terrorist. The Osama Bin Laden of his age. He's around that time isn't he... or was he later?

Other Comments by MartinSGill

325. Comment #12477 by BillySands on December 12, 2006 at 5:45 am

 avatar"If sex is just a physical need, an appetite like eating or drinking then hey why shouldn't you sleep with someone else? It means nothing – it is enjoyable? Surely when it feels so good it can't be wrong."
I hope David is not serious here, that if something feels so right that it cant be wrong."

EVIL WICKED CHILD!

Interesting that David goes against the grain on premarital sex here (although the biblke dioesn't specifically prohibit it)

Any way "Great booze up Martin"

Other Comments by BillySands

326. Comment #12478 by TigerDunc on December 12, 2006 at 5:47 am

David - You make your point with dignity and in a civil manner, and I apologise that some of my fellow atheists seem to feel the need to resort to abuse. I also wish that you did have the resource and means with which to make a television program which would respond to Richard Dawkin's "The root of all evil". I do not for one moment think that you could come close to doing so and others have made the point already on this thread as to the pointlessness of rational debate versus blind faith. Go and make your program, if you can prove to me, or prove to any of the rest of us that your god exists, then so be it.

Other Comments by TigerDunc

327. Comment #12481 by Joadist on December 12, 2006 at 6:07 am

David A Robertson,

Jesus rose from the dead.
Dracula rose from the dead.

Why should I accept one of those statements and not the other?

I just want a justification for one that does not also justify the other.

If I allow you to use the Bible, then you must allow me to use Bram Stoker's book.

I know it is a bit unfair because there is far more folklore about vampires than about Jesus.

Other Comments by Joadist

328. Comment #12482 by Ewan D on December 12, 2006 at 6:07 am

To echo Billy, I've had enough. Those of us with a bit of patience have made generous allowances - David is after all a fallible being like the rest of us. But when each of his 'rebuttals' is as lazy and unedifying as the last, with the most worthwhile points IGNORED there comes a point when you have to give up. His ignorant one-size-fits-all attitude to non theists and selective amnesia keeps him blissfully unaware that any serious challenges have come his way, keeping their cumulative effect to a reassuring zero.

He prides himself on having grappled once. Been there, done that. Now he knows enough to cover his ears and preach for the rest of his life.

Other Comments by Ewan D

329. Comment #12489 by Ole on December 12, 2006 at 6:51 am

 avatarDavid,

Did you see the video clip from the "Late Late Show with Pat Kenny"? If you go 1:23 into part 1, you will see RD talking about the miss-translation of the word "virgin" (from greek). The word "almah" occurs many times in the Hebrew Bible and usually seems to mean "a young woman of marriageable age".

What if it really meant "young woman" and not "virgin"?

Kind regards,

Ole

Other Comments by Ole

330. Comment #12512 by BillySands on December 12, 2006 at 10:18 am

 avatarmartin, I'll say one thing about catholics, at least they have natural rhythm http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SFXLGynyznM

David you also mentioned that you do not think you should impose your morality on others. Why dont you talk out about those who want to shut down the wester isles on a sunday? (I predict that you may answer this, but not address paleopathology)

Other Comments by BillySands

331. Comment #12561 by Paul Creber on December 12, 2006 at 3:21 pm

Like Ewan D, I too have had enough, but for slightly different reasons; I need to start my Mid-winter Solstice shopping. I agree with you, Ewan, that David has been infuriatingly slippery throughout this long exchange, but perhaps unlike you, I take some consolation from that. It is this: There will almost certainly be those on the sidelines in this discussion who possess intelligent and discerning grey matter. I have little doubt they will have no problem in separating "lazy and unedifying" point-scoring from taut and cogent argument.

Other Comments by Paul Creber

332. Comment #12618 by David A Robertson on December 13, 2006 at 1:19 am

Morning guys,

Glad to see you are keeping the standard up to its usual high level....


640. Comment #12456 by MartinSGill


"You're not a good historian if you think that. Democracy existed in Greece long before Christianity. Protestant beliefs may have encouraged democracy to be adopted in England, but I couldn't say. I'd argue that democracy happened regardless. The oldest known democracy surviving is iceland and their traditions (at the time at least) are not christian let alone protestant. I begin to doubt more and more your claim to be an historian."

Yes – you are correct about democracy in Greece. I am talking about modern democracy. As far as I am aware it arose in countries which had a protestant tradition. Iceland was of course Christian – the Vikings having converted early on.

"The country held up as the leading democracy in the world is the USA, and it has been proven that the founding fathers, the shapers and builders of that democracy were atheists, agnostics and/or deists and most certainly secular."

I know that some were deists – but the notion that they were atheists – that's a new one. Still it helps explain whats wrong with America! Mind you I do have enormous difficulty with this reading back into history what you want. I guess the pilgrim fathers were really closet atheists and the fact that 11 of the 13 original states had established churches was really a clever ploy to hide their secularism!


" The difference is, I'd argue, that I understand religion better, as is usually the case for an outside observer. I was certain that there had to be Christian polygamists and I was certain they used the bible to justify their views, just as you justify your own. It only took a very quick internet search to find what I wanted."

Yes I kind of figured that your 'knowledge was based on 'google'. If you want you will also find people who believe in a flat earth and I'm sure someone somewhere will be advocating atheists are aliens. Please try to get some facts from a reliable source and not use the eccentric margins as the reason for your arguments.

"The fact that is was so easy to find further supports my view that the bible can be used to justify anything you want."

Anything CAN be used to justify anything. That is not the issue. The issue is whether the bible can reasonably or legitimately used to justify anything. I am surprised that I have to tell intelligent people that that is not the case. On the other hand maybe you are one of these people who accept that the Bible says 'there is no God" (Psalm 14 v. 1). Have a look at the context…
.

"I believe it is wrong to be unfaithful because of my own convictions, as do many others that are atheist and non christian."

I am sorry but you asked me where I got my morals from. I told you. I'm glad that you agree with the Bible on this issue but that does not invalidate my claim that I believe it because of the Bible. Stick to the question you asked..

"Atheism and humanism are all about tolerance."

Yes – this website is a shining example of atheist 'tolerance'.

"The guiding factor is that you don't hurt others."

How do you determine hurt? Dawkins attack on God deeply hurts me. Does that mean he should stop?

"Our options are only limited by our own feelings and views."

So if your feelings and views tell you to kill a prostitute that's ok. After all your options are only limited by your feelings and views.

"Your options are further limited by what people thought was right 2000 years ago."

Nope. My options are limited by what God says is right.

"None whatsoever. Hence I think polygamy should be legal, as well as gay marriage, abortion, stem-cell research etc.
Even if I didn't agree with them, and I don't agree with polygamy, that does not give me the right to impose my morality, my views, on others, as religion does"

So bestiality, paedophilia, killing the disabled, euthanasia, etc are all ok – because we do not have the right to impose our morality on anyone else? .

" My own radicalism is towards the expansion of freedoms, to allow people to do whatever they want as long as they don't hurt others"

But that's not radical. Its very conservative and inane and meaningless. Who defines hurt? And anyway what right do you have to impose your morality that others should not be hurt on others. What if John's morality is that it is ok to hurt others? Why should your morality be imposed upon him? .

" Religion needs to be curbed."

This would be atheist tolerance in action again?


" You totally ignored my follow on sentence that requested evidence of your belief. Hence, I use your own sentence against you: what you believe is irrelevant, it is what is true that counts."

Martin – you don't make your point by refusing to answer a simple question. You were talking about Jewish genealogies and stated (without any evidence) that it did not make sense for Jesus's genealogy to be recorded because Joseph was only a carpenter. I just simply asked you to justify this statement and pointed out that for all Jewish families (whatever background) genealogy is key. Your response was, Victor Meldrew like, 'I don't believe it! If it's a big issue to you then just go check it out. Don't skip to something else.

"Why are there so many different bibles?"

There are different translations.

"You sir are a liar! Either that or you really have never actually read the bible. "

I always find it interesting that people who say the bible is false then go on to get very angry if their out of context misquotation is challenged. And why do you quote from the 16th century English version? Matthew 21 v. 21 is not a promise that God will give us whatever we ask for whatever. In the context it is talking about having faith in a real and living God who when we pray, according to his will (what he wants) then we receive. The slot machine view of God is never taught in the Bible. But sometimes you guys can be so simplistic and literalistic that you cannot see the wood for the trees.


" The only difference is that humans are better suited to being able to learn to read. We are better tool users that's all. God has nothing to do with it"

I look forward to seeing rabbits reading Beatrix Potter soon then. .

"Wales can communicate over entire oceans, maybe even over the entire globe"

So can Irelands and Scotlands.

"Some animals communicate in extremely complex ways. We don't have a monopoly on that. Again, we are just slightly better at it."

So wolves etc use language, concepts, grammer, memory and consciousness. And your evidence for this is? (And please don't cite the Jungle Book!)



647. Comment #12481 by Joadist,

"Jesus rose from the dead.
Dracula rose from the dead.

Why should I accept one of those statements and not the other?

I just want a justification for one that does not also justify the other.

If I allow you to use the Bible, then you must allow me to use Bram Stoker's book."

Oh dear. This is the level of atheist reasoning and logic?! I think you will find that Bram Stoker wrote his novel as a work of fiction and regarded it as such. The Bible was written as historical account. You can dispute its accuracy but you should not mix it up with fiction. When you can work out the difference in literary genres please come back and make a sensible point.

648. Comment #12482 by Ewan D

Thanks Ewan. Bye. I guess you should retreat to the comfort zone of your fellow believers. At least you will be able to insult everyone outside that zone without fear of it ever being challenged.

649. Comment #12489 by Ole
"Did you see the video clip from the "Late Late Show with Pat Kenny"? If you go 1:23 into part 1, you will see RD talking about the miss-translation of the word "virgin" (from greek). The word "almah" occurs many times in the Hebrew Bible and usually seems to mean "a young woman of marriageable age".

What if it really meant "young woman" and not "virgin"?"

Yes I did. The point is as old as the hills (well 19th century where Richared seems to be stuck anyway). I think I dealt with this several hundred posts ago or it may have been in private correspondence with someone from this site. The bottom line is that there are several words that could have been used. Almah is the only word that could have been used for an unmarried, but betrothed virgin. The context and reference means that it is most likely to be an unmarried virgin. Please write me if you want more details on the extensive literature on this subject.


651. Comment #12561 by Paul Creber

Paul enjoy your Christmas shopping. I hope you come to know the Christ of Christmas.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

333. Comment #12619 by David A Robertson on December 13, 2006 at 1:23 am

646. Comment #12478 by TigerDunc on December 12,

TigerDunc, Your post was so sensible and nice that it deserves a separate response.

"I also wish that you did have the resource and means with which to make a television program which would respond to Richard Dawkin's "The root of all evil".

So do I....

"I do not for one moment think that you could come close to doing so and others have made the point already on this thread as to the pointlessness of rational debate versus blind faith."

I agree. I would not be arguing for blind faith but rather for rational faith. Unfortunately it seems to be a major part of the atheist creed that faith is what they say it is - that is blind. I would argue that a blind faith is stupid and is not real faith at all.

"Go and make your program, if you can prove to me, or prove to any of the rest of us that your god exists, then so be it."

I would love to. Thanks...

Other Comments by David A Robertson

334. Comment #12625 by Joadist on December 13, 2006 at 1:56 am

Sorry david, you don't get off that easy.

The bible was written as FICTION, complete with fairy tale monsters and superheros arriving just in the nick of time to rescue the frightened townspeople.

Dracula was Stoker's fictionalized narration of his actual encounters with vampires.

Bottom line; You can't simply declare that your comic book is history and mine is not.
You will have to provide a standard by which a determination can be made.

At least Stoker was a contemporary of Dracula. The Council of Nicaea didn't exist during any of the events in the bible. Stoker's book was historically consistent. We know the Bible is historically innacurate on a great number of things, such as the date of Noah's flood.

I would think it a very simple task for you to provide a disproof of Dracula that did not also disprove Jesus.

Other Comments by Joadist

335. Comment #12629 by MartinSGill on December 13, 2006 at 2:24 am

 avatar
I always find it interesting that people who say the bible is false then go on to get very angry if their out of context misquotation is challenged. And why do you quote from the 16th century English version? Matthew 21 v. 21 is not a promise that God will give us whatever we ask for whatever. In the context it is talking about having faith in a real and living God who when we pray, according to his will (what he wants) then we receive. The slot machine view of God is never taught in the Bible. But sometimes you guys can be so simplistic and literalistic that you cannot see the wood for the trees.


I believe the bible is false. I don't have to justify my use of it. The point is that you and your religious contemporaries believe it is true.

Therefore the moment something in them can be shown to be false it supports my position and undermines yours.

If you don't accept the King James Version of the bible, then how can you decide just which bible is the correct one? But no matter.. they all seem to agree on this at least:

New International Version:

The Fig Tree Withers
18Early in the morning, as he was on his way back to the city, he was hungry. 19Seeing a fig tree by the road, he went up to it but found nothing on it except leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.

20When the disciples saw this, they were amazed. "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?" they asked.

21Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

This IS the context. There is no more context. It even has a section heading. The previous section is Jesus arriving at the temple and the next section is Jesus authority questioned. This incident stand on its own.

Maybe you need some more evidence?

English Standard Version:

Jesus Curses the Fig Tree
18In the morning, as he was returning to the city, he became hungry. 19And seeing a fig tree by the wayside, he went to it and found nothing on it but only leaves. And he said to it, "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree withered at once.

20When the disciples saw it, they marveled, saying, "How did the fig tree wither at once?" 21And Jesus answered them, "Truly, I say to you, if you have faith and do not doubt, you will not only do what has been done to the fig tree, but even if you say to this mountain, 'Be taken up and thrown into the sea,' it will happen. 22And whatever you ask in prayer, you will receive, if you have faith."

Contemporary English Version:

Jesus Puts a Curse on a Fig Tree

18When Jesus got up the next morning, he was hungry. He started out for the city, 19and along the way he saw a fig tree. But when he came to it, he found only leaves and no figs. So he told the tree, "You will never again grow any fruit!" Right then the fig tree dried up.

20The disciples were shocked when they saw how quickly the tree had dried up. 21But Jesus said to them, "If you have faith and don't doubt, I promise that you can do what I did to this tree. And you will be able to do even more. You can tell this mountain to get up and jump into the sea, and it will. 22If you have faith when you pray, you will be given whatever you ask for."

New Living Translation:

Jesus Curses the Fig Tree
18 In the morning, as Jesus was returning to Jerusalem, he was hungry, 19 and he noticed a fig tree beside the road. He went over to see if there were any figs, but there were only leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear fruit again!" And immediately the fig tree withered up.

20 The disciples were amazed when they saw this and asked, "How did the fig tree wither so quickly?"

21 Then Jesus told them, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and don't doubt, you can do things like this and much more. You can even say to this mountain, 'May you be lifted up and thrown into the sea,' and it will happen. 22 You can pray for anything, and if you have faith, you will receive it."



How many more versions of the bible must I quote.. with full context before you accept that you are talking a load of bollocks?

Please... tell me which version of the bible you use so that I can quote from the "correct" version. Is it one you've compiled yourself?

Edited: To improve formatting.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

336. Comment #12630 by BillySands on December 13, 2006 at 2:25 am

 avatarI'm with Paul here, the only reason I continue is for the benefit of those on the sidelines. David has anyone actually contatced you and said you have converted then (dont use the evasive god converts people rubbish. you know what i mean).

David points out that there are no diffrent bibles, only different translations. Again he is in error. The different curches eg catholic and orthodox actually have some different books in their bibles. Some include books like tobit and the maccabees, and others leave out books like daniel.

Regards polygamy, how many wives did abraham have? or Solomon? There is no contextual difficulty in the verse martin quotes. It is quite clear there is a contextual difficlty in micah 5:2 and the virgin bitrh prophecy (still talking about mistranslations when the verse is about events 700 years before jesus) Excuse me for not giving an accurate date, because matthew says he was born in 4 CE and Luke says he was born in 6CE

Good luck Xmas shopping Paul

I may find some links later showing you some diseased fossils david

Other Comments by BillySands

337. Comment #12631 by BillySands on December 13, 2006 at 2:30 am

 avatarThat should read 4BCE for matthew.
Martin the correct version doesn't exist, they all say the same thing, and other verses say the same thing. So, what you have to do to maintain your delusion that the bible is true is totally ignore the verse and lie to yourself that it actually says that you will get what you want as long as it is OK with god. I think I'll submit that for a PhD in theology, or set up my own church and submit it.

Other Comments by BillySands

338. Comment #12648 by Ole on December 13, 2006 at 4:30 am

 avatarHello David,

Thanks for the answer about the virgin - no I don't want to follow up that subject anymore here.
(I've read quite a bit about it. And I think it is probable that there can have been a mis-translation - that Mary was a "young woman", etc)

I've just seen an interesting video. It is here on this website, but you can also find it on YouTube:

"Ken Miller on Intelligent Design":
(his lecture is about 60 minutes, followed by a QA session)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JVRsWAjvQSg

As, you can see - not only atheist (like me, RD, etc. etc.) are worried about what can happen to science if it is mixed with religious belief.

... a video I hope many muslims also will see!

Best,

Ole

Other Comments by Ole

339. Comment #12677 by Ewan D on December 13, 2006 at 8:13 am

Hello again. All right, I suppose it's more fun participating!

'Thanks Ewan. Bye. I guess you should retreat to the comfort zone of your fellow believers. At least you will be able to insult everyone outside that zone without fear of it ever being challenged.'

David, that was loaded with insults. For what it's worth I regret insulting you - I can't seem to stop myself sometimes. You know how it can take a heroic effort to resist making an implicit or explicit dig which will only fan the flames. I have lapses, so do you. There's much exasperation on both sides and spleens need venting. Alas they're not the most reflective of organs.

Regarding one of your lowest insults - why do you keep bringing up this brainless moral relativism?

'So bestiality, paedophilia, killing the disabled, euthanasia, etc are all ok – because we do not have the right to impose our morality on anyone else?'

Is this a taste of what you'd put into your superior endorsement of atheism which you boast you could write?

No one here espouses such a stance, or if they do, could they please stand and be counted?

The fact our innate compassion and the gift of a civilising upbringing precludes exploitation of the weak is not a mystery which needs a theistic explanation. Nor is the drive to intervene when others offend our moral consciences.

The apparent innateness of compassion demands an explanation, and guess what, it is being revealed. The evolutionary advantage of social acuity and reciprocal alturism dissolves at least some of the mystery, with the rest being explained, broadly, by nurture. I can attest that having at least a fledgling understanding of compassion does not dull it.

Note that compassion is not universal - among an unfortunate minority who've suffered specific traumas, neural pathologies etc., it appears non existant. (From your paradigm, with all the empathy bestowed by an understanding of scripture, such anomalies are presumably explained away as evil.) Anyway, would your model of extreme moral relativism appeal to them? Possibly, but while they may feel no innate revulsion from it they may still be equipped to comprehend a rational critique, especially if they retain a desire for self preservation.

(The editing faculty allows me to add afterthoughts and I'll add this - your eagle eye might have spotted an apparent sympathy for psychopaths - those without compassion or conscience. And why not? I'm satisfied that there are cases where the condition is in no sense their fault. But to spell it out, no thinking person would advocate allowing them to live by their own rules. If they're a hazard to others, I'm afraid locking them up might be the only answer. Their prospects might be happier in the future though, if science one day perfects surgical correction of the compromised brain areas, whether damaged by stroke, tumor or injury, or lacking at birth.) (I know - yuck! But there are psychopaths who'd volunteer to be endowed with normal emotions - you can bet on it. Plus, if successful, such an operation would be their ticket to freedom.)

On moral issues, atheists like myself try to bring everything (everything BUT the selfish gene) to bear when we decide where to draw the line, coming all the way down to the specifics of an individual case. A refusal to do that is lazy, and an affront to our vital moral faculties.

Euthenasia - as you intended - stands out to a liberal ethicist as the odd-man-out. You regard it as virtuous to lump it in with paedophilia, but whom do you seek to protect? The debate is by no means cut-and-dried, but before you enter it, investigate and dispel your irrational fear that anyone who differs with you on the Bible must be in favour of killing off the elderly or disabled, or tacitly pressuring them into calling it quits. In looking at euthenasia we reappraise the idea of killing which is every bit as unpleasant to us as it is to you, so there must be a damn good reason for it. That reason is compassion for the sufferer.

Perhaps you fear the 'slippery slope' phenomenon because you don't trust others' ability to judge cases on their own merits. I'm not certain I do either, which is why we have to keep vigilant - but I suspect I'd be provisionally more trusting of lawyers and healthcare professionals than you would.

I'd humbly suggest, with no insult intended, that your theology would move up a gear if you liberated yourself more fully from the shackles of biblical literalism and historicity and read 'Thou Art That' by Joseph Campbell. Sorry if you already know it. This is a truly well-meaning recommendation. (You'll find an excerpt on amazon. )

Other Comments by Ewan D

340. Comment #12689 by MartinSGill on December 13, 2006 at 9:22 am

 avatarSome excellent points on morality and ethics by Ewan D.

My ethics and morals can deal very well with those subject without turning into the monster you'd like to paint me, and all atheists.

Beasitialty: Wrong, because the animal can't give knowing consent. Basically you are abusing the animal and hence hurting it.

Paedophillia: Harder to answer, you need to define paedophillia. I don't think two consenting 14 years old's having sex are peadophiles, as our current law taints them. I do think a 60 year old marrying an 8 year old is disgusting, and wrong. But hten the church presided over enough of those weddings in it's lifetime that you have to wonder if the church endorses it. Before you start looking to society at large it might well be worth getting your own house in order. That there are peadophile priests I can understand, a certain percentage would be, what I can't understand is the Church hierarchy covering up for them. If you want something disgusting... that's it. Yes, you've implied you are not catholic, but in the end you all base your morals on the same thing.. the