Skip to Main Content (access key 1)
Skip to Search (access key 2)
Skip to Search GO (access key 3)
Skip to comments (access key 4)
Skip to navigation (access key 5)
Skip to top of page (access key 6)
Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

Comments 351 - 400 of 580 | | View Alternate Comment Thread

Reload Comments | Back to Top | Page Numbers

351. Comment #12797 by David A Robertson on December 13, 2006 at 11:19 pm

I find it interesting that the vast majority of posts on this thread do not engage with the articles that they are meant to be critiquing. It seems as though there is a standard atheist response to anything – that is to start arguing against the Bible/Christianity/religion no matter what is being discussed. There is a lot of anger, a lot of hot air, and a lot of 'this is my proof that there is no God'. There is very little interaction with what is being said by the other side. You might improve your position if you improved your listening skills as well.

As regards my critique (so far) of TGD I think it is interesting that the same magazine that voted Dawkins one of the worlds top three intellectuals has voted the God Delusion the most overrated book of 2006. One of the biggest criticisms I have had was for referring to the book as 'fundamentalist'. I hold by that (and indeed much of this website). One of the comments in Prospect from Alan Wolfe agrees – "Written with so little tolerance and so much fervour that fundamentalists will recognize Dawkins as one of their own"

Meanwhile back to your comments.


654. Comment #12625 by Joadist
"Sorry david, you don't get off that easy.

The bible was written as FICTION, complete with fairy tale monsters and superheros arriving just in the nick of time to rescue the frightened townspeople."

Obviously you have never read the Bible (just where are the superheros and the fairy tale monsters) and you have no concept of what fiction or history is. I can't deal with such a confused mind.

"Bottom line; You can't simply declare that your comic book is history and mine is not."

Bottom line is that its not my book. That you have to take the genre in which it is written and what the authors intent was. The Bible was largely written as history (also poetry, law, prophecy and letters). You may argue that it is bad history. What you cannot do (with any degree of reason or sanity) is claim that it was written as fiction.

"We know the Bible is historically innacurate on a great number of things, such as the date of Noah's flood."

I did not know that the Bible gave a date for Noahs flood.

"I would think it a very simple task for you to provide a disproof of Dracula that did not also disprove Jesus. "

Not it would be an impossible task. I could not provide a disproof of Dracula that also disproved Jesus.


655. Comment #12629 by MartinSGill


"I believe the bible is false."

Yes Martin. I know you 'believe'. I am a rationalist and would just like to see some evidence for this rather extraordinary belief. Is this a belief based on fact or just faith?

And thanks for all the bible quotes from different versions. None of which teach that Jesus promises that all prayers will be answered yes.


659. Comment #12677 by Ewan D
Nice to have you back. Sorry for insulting you….

"Regarding one of your lowest insults - why do you keep bringing up this brainless moral relativism?"

Because virtually every atheist I have ever met is a moral relativist. However if you are claiming to be a moral absolutist I will take you at your word. I just wonder where you get your absolutes from.?

"The fact our innate compassion and the gift of a civilising upbringing precludes exploitation of the weak is not a mystery which needs a theistic explanation. Nor is the drive to intervene when others offend our moral consciences."

This is fascinating. You believe that human beings have 'inate compassion' – could you provide the evidence for this or is it just wishful thinking? And I wonder what you call civilized? Could this be Western Imperialism rising its ugly head again?

"On moral issues, atheists like myself try to bring everything (everything BUT the selfish gene) to bear when we decide where to draw the line, coming all the way down to the specifics of an individual case. A refusal to do that is lazy, and an affront to our vital moral faculties."

That is a significant 'but'. I still wonder where your absolute lines are.

Thanks for the book recommendation.

664. Comment #12708 by Thrall


"How do you determine hurt? Dawkins says god doesn't exist and that hurts me."

"Honestly? You are hurt by another person's opinion?"

Yes - strangely enough I would be hurt by someone expressing the opinion that all black people were stupid, that Scots were mean and that my wife was a prostitute. Surely you are not one of these people who thinks that hurt is only physical. Anyway the point was simple. Who defines hurt? The notion that you can do what you want as long as it does not 'hurt' anyone is simplistic and depends on who defines hurt and how.

"Do you feel the need to kill the disabled only if God weren't there to stop you from doing it?"

No – But I do think that many people in society do not follow their God given consciences. After all we have already as a society made the disgusting decision that a disabled baby in the womb can be killed.

"And while i'm on the subject, why is homosexual marriage wrong in christians eyes? Where in the bible does it say that it is wrong. (sorry for the tangent)"

The Bible says that the practice of homosexuality is wrong. And while I am on the subject why does secularism not allow plural marriage, or marriage to siblings, or marriage to animals, or 60 year olds to marry 10 year olds? Where do you get your standards from?

669. Comment #12728 by NoLongerHaveBelief

>>Comment #12618 by David A Robertson<<

"You've had thousands of years to prove your claims Mr.Robertson. In all that time, none have been substantiated. "

I've only actually been around 44 years. I'm not sure what claims you are talking about.

"Thus, a low-life like Ian Huntley can repent upon death"

You've got me here. I'm afraid I am not able to divide the human race into the good guys and the bad guys. I can't make that kind of simplistic distinction.

"We are all - by your ridiculous beliefs - created in God's image; thus God MUST be a Sikh, Hindi, Muslim, Catholic, Judaeo-Christian Homosexual Atheist! Or is that point lost in your strange belief?"

No. It is quite amusing that you even consider it a point at all. It's a bit like arguing that God made Scots, African, Americans etc therefore God must be Scottish, African etc. All human beings are made in Gods image – that is we are made logical, personal, reasonable, with a moral conscience and an ability to know right or wrong, and with a free will.

"Why, when we admit to being Atheist, do you Theists INSIST on us providing answers to EVERY question man has?"

I'm afraid I have never insisted such a thing. But it would be nice to get some intelligent answers rather than this continual accusing. Take a chill pill and get your facts right.


" Write to the Queen - she is head of the church. "

Actually no. Jesus is head of the Church.


"Faith is exactly what it states. FAITH. TOTAL LACK OF EVIDENCE."

There you go again. Faith does not state that. You state that (and your prophet) but I'm afraid that I suspect the evidence for your belief is a wee bit lacking.

"At 20, I was a RACIST, ANTI-GAY CHRISTIAN. No longer."

Good. Glad you've given up on the racism and homophobia. Just a shame that you replaced it with another set of people to hate and despise.

"And I'm a tolerant person."

Yes – it clearly shows….

Billy – I'm sorry that I cannot answer any of your many posts – on another thread you complained that I was a bully. You are a sensitive wee soul and I don't really want to upset you.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

352. Comment #12810 by Joadist on December 14, 2006 at 12:17 am

David A Robertson,

Well, thanks for staying on point.

I must take issue with you on the Bible as non-fiction.

It begins with Adam and Eve, who are animated clay dolls, much like Pinochio. Then they meet a talking snake. later on, Moses meets talking shubbery.

Gideon blows a horn and a city collapses. Lots wife turns into a pillar of salt ( Medusa turned people to stone, a much neater trick).

I could go on, but I think the point is clear.
The Bible is a comic book.

The New Testament isn't much better. An itenerant day laborer has the power to raise the dead. But there isn't a single rich or powerful person in the entire empire who wants their dead relative resurrected. If Jesus could have peformed even ONE of the miracles, he would have been chained to Pilate's bedpost.

The Bible is nothing more than fairy tales, and not very good ones at that.

It is far less historically accurate than the Illiad.

Anyways, my next question:

What are the parameters of your beliefs? Do you belive that Achilles existed and that he had a problem wtih is heel? Or are you an Athiest on non-christian topics?

Are you a supernaturalist, or are you a 99.999% Athiest with the single exeption of Christianity?

Other Comments by Joadist

353. Comment #12822 by MartinSGill on December 14, 2006 at 12:58 am

 avatarWhy I believe the bible is false? Passages like the one I quoted is why. The bible is internally inconsistent and contradictory. The first two chapters alone contradict, giving two different versions of creation.

Then there's the fact that historians, working from previous copies of the bible and non christian works have scientifically, through evidence, determined that our current bible and most version for the past 1000 years have been a collection of fabrications and edits. The scientific evidence is nicely summarised by Robin Lane Fox in his book. I'd also point out that most of the historians that studied the bible and discovered these flaws where christians themselves.

Let's look at the passage you've decided to dodge.

"You can pray for anything, and if you have faith, you will receive it."

"You can pray for anything": Yep... you can pray for whatever you want.

"and if you have faith": you claim to have faith?

"you will receive it": Not might receive, not may receive, not could receive... but WILL receive. It's a guarantee.

Are you too closed minded to accept that you are wrong? Why do you bury your head in the sand?

Please tell me which version of the bible you use. So that I can be sure we are talking of the same book. Or are you too scared that I'll find that passage in there as well, and you won't be able to close your eyes to it again in wishful thinking?

Other Comments by MartinSGill

354. Comment #12843 by BillySands on December 14, 2006 at 2:41 am

 avatarDavid, Bring it on!
That has to be your poorest dodge yet. If I met you years ago, I would never have believed. Are your feelings hurt awww? That nasty Prof Dawkins saying religion is for diddies awww poor David. Anyway, enough of these formalities.
David. You are evasive, You dont like challenge, you ignore and cant interpret facts (Nice response to martin by yhe way, thae bible does not say what it actually really says - almost as good a verse about someone else in a different time is actually a prophecy about a long (very) dead first century jew). I've realised that you have another delusion - one that makes you believe what you actually say. Now stop deflecting and answer concerning paleopathology and the morality of confucius.

I will take it that since you refused to speak out against those in your own church that would impose their morality on everyone else that you are a standard run of the mill religious hypocrite and liar and no moral example to the rest of us.

By the way, you wrote some rubbish about genealogies to martin. You said that a carpenter could trace his line back over 1000 years. You did not and can not back that statement up!!!
It's good that you let us show up religion. May you one day become an atheist too. It is the best thing for you.

Other Comments by BillySands

355. Comment #12866 by BillySands on December 14, 2006 at 5:51 am

 avatarMartin (and David)
Here are some more howlers on prayer: James 5:13-15 says, "Is any among you afflicted? let him pray.... Is any sick among you? let him call the elders of the church; and let them pray over him, anointing him with oil.... And the prayer of faith shall save the sick, and the Lord shall raise him up."

Hmm, That happens all the time!

John 16:23-24 says, "Verily, verily, I say to you, Whatever you ask the Father in my name, he will give it to you. Hitherto you have asked nothing in my name: ask, and you shall receive, that your joy may be full."

Crazy pills time!

Matt 7:9:11 "Or what man is there among you who, when his son asks for a loaf, will give him a stone? Or if he asks for a fish, he will not give him a snake, will he? If you then, being evil, know how to give good gifts to your children, how much more will your Father who is in heaven give what is good to those who ask Him!"

And Finally Matt 6:11 "Give us today our daily bread" This is where jesus is TEACHING how to pray. When I think of this, I always think of places like Ethiopia and Sudan, where there are famine. I pass a church on my way to work, and ad around this time every year they have a poster up. A poster that shows fruit, and the caption. "Harvest, A taste of God's goodness". Try telling that to the hungry.

Prayer works - my arse!

Oh David, in relation to Polygamy, Abraham had at least 2 wifes.
David, If I pray hard enough, will Jessica Alba and Kirsty Gallacher Kick down my door tonight and "Know" me? (repeatedly)

Other Comments by BillySands

356. Comment #12869 by Ewan D on December 14, 2006 at 5:56 am

I went to an Alistair MacGrath lecture last night called 'The Twilight of Atheism?'. It was very weak - yes, that's my balanced appraisal! But his strongest charge against Dawkins was on this question you bring up of his perceived fundamentalism. Dawkins is supposidly a fundamentalist because he is understood to believe that atheism follows from Darwinism. Now I've heard Dawkins concede the obvious - that many scientists and theists see no incompatibility between belief and Darwinism (through a 'compartmentalisation of the mind...') but still, his forceful equation has alledgedly made him a chief recruiter for the Discovery Institute and Creationism. Dawkins has done science a great disservice according to some scientists.

Now Dawkins may be guilty of an unjustified intellectual leap which wouldn't satisfy a critic, let alone a philosopher, but if he's turning people away from evolution in droves it's not because they all get the finer points of epistemology but because atheism still has a huge public relations job on its hands. As has repeatedly been noted there's hysterical fear and prejudice around the term, particularly in The States.


Anyway...

"Regarding one of your lowest insults - why do you keep bringing up this brainless moral relativism?"

'Because virtually every atheist I have ever met is a moral relativist. However if you are claiming to be a moral absolutist I will take you at your word. I just wonder where you get your absolutes from.?'

Is it really true that every atheist you have ever met cleaves to a moral relativism of the sort you expressed? Was that your basic stance when you were flirting with non-belief?

Your absolutism is born of high ideals - I'm an idealist too. But idealism must be tempered with realism to be of any use in the face of life's troubling complexities. I hate to sound as if I'm lecturing, but is this not just self evident?

We'll have to agree to differ on this but I say biblical commandments deny the complexity of life and are a poor substitute for reasoned, feeling ethical discourse. With a tiny bit of imagination I'm sure you can think of scenarios where even you would be forced to bend your absolutes. (And be no worse a man for it.)

I sense your prejudice because I've had dealings with Chrisians all my life. Complexity is not the atheist's convenient hiding place for immorality that you intuitively fear, it is an undeniable, a-moral feature of absolutely everything in this life. We have to deal with it as mature, thinking citizens.

"The fact our innate compassion and the gift of a civilising upbringing precludes exploitation of the weak is not a mystery which needs a theistic explanation. Nor is the drive to intervene when others offend our moral consciences."

'This is fascinating.'

Thanks

'You believe that human beings have 'inate compassion' – could you provide the evidence for this or is it just wishful thinking?'

Evidence for innate compassion? My earliest memories include weeping over injured birds etc. like just about any child. Compassion is native to a particular brain area - you don't get much more innate than that. Remove the area and you remove compassion. Simple. We're all a burst blood vessel away from being someone different.

Have you read Da Masio's 'Looking for Spinoza'? That might guide you to some enlightenment, away from the filthy, disgusting view of humanity expressed in typical Evangelical Christian tracts.

If I mention Elephants, Dolphins and Bonobos by way of digression I can just imagine your eyes glazing over. You're certainly not ready to entertain conjecture on the antecedents of compassion in mere animals.

'And I wonder what you call civilized? Could this be Western Imperialism rising its ugly head again?'

Could this be YOUR prejudice about ATHEISTS rearing its ugly head again? I said civilised, simply meaning the upbringing offered by a loving family with adult role-models. This is crucial to the formation of an emotionally rounded personality - feral children are more susceptible to the power of selfish interest, where life is a basic fight for survival.

But I'm sharp enough to know what you're getting at with regards to moral relitavism so you can save your breath. I'm against female circumsision, and would never argue that it is acceptable to someone else's moral framework therefore we shouldn't interfere. I'm also no fan of the unanaesthetised circumcision of male babies with a sharpened thumbnail as still practised today by some Rabbis. My objection is not cultural, but human. Name a single practice of ritual cruelty in my culture which you imagine I'd defend and I promise to take a hard look at myself.



"On moral issues, atheists like myself try to bring everything (everything BUT the selfish gene) to bear when we decide where to draw the line, coming all the way down to the specifics of an individual case. A refusal to do that is lazy, and an affront to our vital moral faculties."

'That is a significant 'but'.'

It is not a significant 'but'. We don't appeal to 'is' for 'ought'. For 'ought' we must appeal to rational thought grounded in sympathy. The ubiquitous Golden Rule is a decent point of departure, except when in the hands of sado masochists. Are you perhaps the last person to cotton-on to the obvious fact that social darwinism does not follow logically from the theory of evolution? Does gravity make it immoral for us to fly planes? (Note to self - write series of novels on Christians who ignore and reject advances in science and enlightenment thinking. Call it 'Left Behind.')

'I still wonder where your absolute lines are.'

Lines will be drawn on the merits of each case but when we approach them with wisdom and compassion, suffering will be minimised - by definition. I've said nothing that breaches a naturalistic understanding of reality. If you think I have, you really need to know more about what one entails instead of telling me what atheists believe.

Other Comments by Ewan D

357. Comment #12874 by BillySands on December 14, 2006 at 6:11 am

 avatarThere are plenty of examples of animals that act morally, but David wants to play ostrich again. There are also good BIOLOGICAL reasons to act in a moral way. If you are a social animal and you are greedy, then you may be punished. Studies to this effect have been done on chimps. It is the same for people too. Get a bad reputation and you have less options open to you. Read about Kin selection David.
My atheism is not rooted in Darwinism, but as an atheist, I now appreciate what Darwin meant even more. It fits the world an we see it interms of biodiversity and behaviour. Social and cultural evolution has it's roots in our biology, not god.

Other Comments by BillySands

358. Comment #12879 by Ole on December 14, 2006 at 7:00 am

 avatarDavid said: I find it interesting that the vast majority of posts on this thread do not engage with the articles that they are meant to be critiquing.

Well, in this longest tread on RDN, (thanks to you David) it is a discussion or flow of posting with new topics entering in all the time..... it is quite common that a long tread in a forum tend to "fork" (to use a progamming term).

Btw, (another topic, perhaps?)

Last evening, I talked to a minister. I asked him what the thought about a handball player who had told the press that she used to pray before every match.
"No problem", he said, "a prayer is more like a mental focus or a meditation".

Interesting how things are "adjusted" to meet changes in society ;-)

O.J.

Other Comments by Ole

359. Comment #12890 by Ewan D on December 14, 2006 at 8:08 am

Billy says

'My atheism is not rooted in Darwinism, but as an atheist, I now appreciate what Darwin meant even more. It fits the world and we see it in terms of biodiversity and behaviour. Social and cultural evolution has it's roots in our biology, not god.'

I learned last night from MacGrath that C.S. Lewis said something similar - 'I believe in God in the same way as I believe in the sun, not only because I see it, but because by its light I can see everything else.' or something to that effect.

The question MacGrath was diplomatic enough to leave open, since we can't yet settle it outright was 'which model fits the evidence best?' I'm with Billy on that one, and David is with C.S Lewis. But regrettably David hasn't supported his position that natural disasters make more sense when seen in the light of a loving god. Or that evil and compassion only make sense in the light of a unique, personal, plural, spiritual, eternally self-existent, transcendent, immanent, omniscient, immutable, holy, loving, Creator, Ruler and Judge of all mankind.

Other Comments by Ewan D

360. Comment #12897 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 14, 2006 at 9:23 am

David Said:

>>Good. Glad you've given up on the racism and homophobia. Just a shame that you replaced it with another set of people to hate and despise.<<

Wrong. I DON'T hate you religious believers. I admire your faith. But answer this: Do YOU HATE Gays? Do you condone them, as your silly Bible demands?

How ludicrous. That God would condemn what he created. i.e Gays, Lesbians, Paedophiles, Murderers, rapists.

All created by God - according to you.

And

>>"And I'm a tolerant person."<<

You know NOTHING about me. Why are you here? Do you believe you are doing God's work by attacking Atheists? You should read your Bible properly. Your not supposed to preach outside of the Church. You've read Professor Dawkins books - I'll grant you credit for bothering - yet, you moan at us Atheists as NOT answering your questions directly.

You didn't answer my question earlier. WHAT created your God and what was he doing before time began?

Ah. You don't know. So you continue in your illogical belief system, pleased with yourself that you are attacking Atheists and doing 'God's work', eh?

I'd suggest you leave these forums - take your anger with you - and turn the other cheek as Jesus commanded you.

You've not convinced any of us Atheists in here that we are wrong to reject supernatural belief. You've ignored everything I've said and taken AD HOMINEM pot shots at my posting.

It's clear where the intolerance is.

I hope your God is with you, always. I don't need God anymore. I'll take my chances. And it would be a POOR supreme being indeed, if he were to condemn me to eternal hellfire for not believing. The evidence for 'his' existence is very poor, if at all observable. I can't think of ONE piece of evidence that would convince me of a God.

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

361. Comment #12942 by BillySands on December 14, 2006 at 2:09 pm

 avatarNolongerhavebelief,
I think David the hypocrite should stay, he shows up his belief system for what it is and resorts to ad hominem when he has no way out of a situation. The more he offends avoids or just writes cack, the more I realise how stupid I was to believe this guff: A god who doesn't speak directly that no one has ever seen leaves a book of fairy tails and myths that science craps on, and no one can agree on its meaning. People fight over and discuss the nature of this no evidential entity. They constantly make excuses for him and ignore his multiple personalities. And he takes this seriously. I think it's great atheist promotional material.

Please rev hypocrite and father of lies like there is an anti creationist witch hunt in biochemistry departments, comment on paleopathology.

Other Comments by BillySands

362. Comment #12973 by Ewan D on December 14, 2006 at 5:55 pm

A worthwhile review of TGD, in case you folks haven't read it yet - Blaming 'The God Delusion' by Charles Demers

Other Comments by Ewan D

363. Comment #12992 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 12:53 am

 avatarI agree with Billy.

The longer David fails to address the issues raised here the more good he does converting people away from faith and superstition. So let him keep talking.

I'm sufficiently thick skinned to survive the ad hominems, and I'm sure I've become sufficiently exasperated and incredulous with David in the past to have been less than totally polite at all times.

I find it interesting that David thought I was "angry" when I called him a liar. I was just stating a fact, and it was, to my shame, more glee than anger. I shouldn't gloat when I win an argument with such a strong point. My conscience is soothed though by the fact that David's irrational faith prevented his world view from collapsing around him.

The more David equivocates on providing an explanation for that passage in Matthew 21, the more certain it becomes that he cannot explain it, certainly not rationally, and the more good he does those people that read this debate with an open mind to finally shake off the shackles of religion.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

364. Comment #12993 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 1:15 am

 avatarDavid you asked for proof of my assertion of language in animals.

Here is a web site dealing with the concept in apes, including teaching them language, and more importantly that language being transmitted without human interference into the wider ape community and descendants.

http://www.davidmswitzer.com/apelang.html

All sources in the article are referenced, so if you don't believe the author you can check up on them yourself.

While there most certainly is still wide debate on the issue, it is also definitely true that apes have achieved language skills equal to those of very young children and/or those of mentally disabled adults.

This one reference I found rather appropriate for you:


Some people say that anything an ape can do is not language; of course, if these are the same people who say that language defines us as humans, and an ape can learn sign language, then they are saying that deaf people who use sign language are not human (Patterson & Linden 1981: 119-120)


Other Comments by MartinSGill

365. Comment #12995 by Ole on December 15, 2006 at 1:49 am

 avatarI don't think David is the only one who find some of the posts here a bit harsh. Some posters have a bit of anger for sure. Why? Maybe we could address that as well?

If you remember from one of the QA that RD had in USA (Lynchburg, I think) - many people in the audience clearly expressen a lot of anger.

Personally I've never felt that anger towards religion, but I was not brought up in a faith. Like Jonathan Miller, I have never believed in a god. (When I was about ten, my grandmother, who was a devoted Christian, tried to explain about her god and I remember vividly how I felt - like a child discovering that Santa Claus is not for real.)

As I've already said, I admire David for taking part here. I'm also very fond of the (mild) way Daniel Dennett says things in his books and in interviews. We can learn a lot from that.

Perhaps some of you also could adopt more of the attitude of a critical thinker. (Look up some guides to critical thinking, etc.)

O.J.

Other Comments by Ole

366. Comment #12996 by Logicel on December 15, 2006 at 1:55 am

 avatarOle, well said. I have just started to read this thread, and as it consists of 14 pages at this point, I am largely ignorant of the discussion that has been taking place, though I have briefly browsed through the pages.

However, if one is going to be harsh, I rather have it to be the style that has been expressed here, honest, no beating around the bush, and quite wittingly expressed!

Atheists who have been brought up as ones by their parents, also, can feel anger. In fact, just about anyone can feel anger at their parents.

Other Comments by Logicel

367. Comment #13000 by Ole on December 15, 2006 at 2:25 am

 avatarLogicel,

Harsh, arrogant, impolite, etc. can sometimes be ok. For some people, RD's book, TGD, does a better job than Dennett's latest.

Maybe "Breaking the Spell" was too mild - that the "The God Delusion" was really what broke the spell? ;-)

Ole

Other Comments by Ole

368. Comment #13004 by BillySands on December 15, 2006 at 2:51 am

 avatarMartin,
Many Birds also have specific calls, and Vervet monkeys have evolved several specific words on their own. It is a rapidly expanding field. Unique human trait have been eroded. First it was tools, then cultural learning and morality now speech. it just shows that we are on an evolutionary tree.
Ole,
I agree nastieness is not nice. I would prefer David to be respectful and honestly answer questions and not resort to an attitude that anyone who disagrees with his god must have something wrong with them. I am happy however to dish out what I get in return, because i think it shows up the poverty of his position when he has to resort to ad hominem. And I also make some challenging points (which he ignores).

To address your question, as an ex christian, one of the sources of anger is the realisation that you have been deluded, have been lied to, made sacrifices for your false god and missed out on opportunities. Then there is all that emotional hurt of wondering what you are doing wrong that god wont answer your requests for guidance or any prayers. When god doesn't respond the way the bible says he should, the blame is always placed on the believer. it is never gods fault. You have either sinned or have misinterpreted the bible, or told that god knows best and that you shouldn't question the situation you are in. Anyone with any intelligence starts to rebell against this. The more you do, the more you have to lie to yourself to carry on believing, and the more you rebel against yourself and so on. Religion is bad. Other people have different reasons, maybe some other folk would like to share.
I can imagine people like david reaing this and saying see, he is angry. He wants god to be false. Not true. I can evaluate evidence much more objectively now, and god is false, because he is regardless of what anyone wants him to be, and I have provided plenty of evidence for my claim here, and no theist have provided any positive evidence of gods existance here. I do regret (deeply)having been a christian, but anger does not rule my evaluation of the facts (facts that were even clear to me at the time, but i chose to ignore)

Other Comments by BillySands

369. Comment #13005 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 2:58 am

 avatarOle

I actually think both books have their place.

Some people won't pay attention until you slap them and in truth that's what Richard, in his eloquent way, does. He most certainly caused a stir, and that's what was needed.

Once people know about the issue they can start reading around. I've got both Breaking the Spell and End of Faith on my shelf waiting to be read. Letter to a Christian nation, certainly, is a bit milder than RD's book in tone, but no less urgent.

Maybe you need to pick the book to suit the audience :). I actually think that RD's book is better suited to people who already have doubts, and RD just demolished the remaining ones. Maybe Dan's book is better for those that don't have doubts yet?

I've basically been atheist all my life (mostly because my parents, my mum in particular, were abused by the church and refused to indoctrinate me, allowing me to make up my own mind).

As to anger, when I do get angry at religion, and I know I do, it's because I've seen first hand the damage it can do to people, not only in my mum but also in others. I don't see religion as having done any good, all it offers is comfort, and that can be replaced by something else that's not superstitious, maybe a blanket or a teddy?

Other Comments by MartinSGill

370. Comment #13007 by BillySands on December 15, 2006 at 3:16 am

 avatarMartin,
I have counselled christians, and I can only agree with you. Looking back now, the problems many have are actually due to thier faith. One friend is currently believing he is going to hell and is suffereng from depression. Why does he believe that? because his thoughts are not those of jesus. I also mentined another friend's homosexual sister, and the depression she suffered as a result. Religion is bad. Dawkins makes a point in the root of all evil? He mentions some imprinting studies, where geese and imprinted to follow a person as their parent. If that person accidentally hurts them by stepping on their toes, the first thing they do is run closer to that person for protection. People and religion are like that. Religion hurts people, but they move closer to the thing that hurts them - bizzare

Other Comments by BillySands

371. Comment #13008 by Logicel on December 15, 2006 at 3:39 am

 avatarMaybe "Breaking the Spell" was too mild - that the "The God Delusion" was really what broke the spell? ;-)
_____

When someone is in shock, or hysterical, sometimes times they are shook or slapped, to get them out of that state. Harsh language is similar, and unlike a hysterical person who may be pleased that someone has taken the effort to cut short the hysteria, supporters of religious superstitions take umbrage.

Hysterical people have a lot to gain from ending their hysteria, supporters of religious superstitions do not--they are similar to any group of humans whose occupation went out the window, like makers of horse harnesses at the turn of the previous century--they have alot to lose, especially if they cannot adapt, no matter how painfully, to the changing human tide.

I remember reading regarding the American film director, Brian De Palma films as being too graphically violent, his response was that violence is the most strongest color on the cinematic canvas. It makes you take attention, and harsh language used in this way, let's say, how Billy Sands uses it, is similar. The blunt language in itself cuts through the inertia and blandness of average discussions, and opens a welcome door to some valuable and serious content.

Other Comments by Logicel

372. Comment #13012 by BillySands on December 15, 2006 at 4:04 am

 avatarLogicel,
I agree, You cant make an omlette without smashing eggs. I was very harshly laid into by a group of friends. We had been on a climbing tripo and were staying in the middle of nowhere, and as the whisky and beer went down, as friend that I hadn't see for a while ad only just found out I became a christian. I explained sin to him and how man deserved hell (oooh I cringe at that now) and he and a few others made their point in no uncertain terms. I was having doubts at the time, and I couldn't deny my friends points "what gives god the right to make us and judge us? The arrogant motherf**ker. F**k him. The Fuc**ng asshole" etc it was a full on assault and I started to realise how stupid my faith. then he started throwing in some molecular biology and I had to agree with him. Basically I was a deluded crackpot, and wsome good friends showed me some very tough love.

Other Comments by BillySands

373. Comment #13013 by Logicel on December 15, 2006 at 4:21 am

 avatar"Maybe "Breaking the Spell" was too mild - that the "The God Delusion" was really what broke the spell? ;-)"
______

Ole, again I have only recently started to read this discussion and only briefly browsed through the pages of previous discussion, but I do see a lot of critical thinking here. Passionately blunt language does not preclude critical thinking.

Critical thinking is very important, and we all can improve our doing it. Some do not even know what it is, and equate it with the random passing of thoughts which contain assumptions, preferences, opinions, etc, and then they conclude that those aspects of thinking is the process of critical thinking. Critical thinking is a mental skill that takes time to develop and hone.

Other Comments by Logicel

374. Comment #13014 by David A Robertson on December 15, 2006 at 4:25 am

Guys,

Just to let you know that my critique of the heart of TGD (ch.4 ) is now on line - all comments welcome –
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/decb06.htm

And a few responses to your comments above.

672. Comment #12810 by Joadist


"The Bible is nothing more than fairy tales, and not very good ones at that.

It is far less historically accurate than the Illiad."

I'm afraid that that is your faith. The bible was written for grown ups – it is really hard to discuss with someone who reads it like a child.

"Or are you an Athiest on non-christian topics?"

Perhaps you ought to consider your use of the English language. An atheist is someone who does not believe that there is any God. Your question above is meaningless.

673. Comment #12822 by MartinSGill

"Then there's the fact that historians, working from previous copies of the bible and non christian works have scientifically, through evidence, determined that our current bible and most version for the past 1000 years have been a collection of fabrications and edits."

Fact?

As regards versions of the Bible I use several – including the Greek and Hebrew. Mostly in English I use the NIV.


676. Comment #12869 by Ewan D


"Is it really true that every atheist you have ever met cleaves to a moral relativism of the sort you expressed? Was that your basic stance when you were flirting with non-belief? "

Yes it is true – at an intellectual level. However most atheists are thoroughly inconsistent in this regard and tend to have better morals than their philosophy would allow. Sadly many 'Christians' tend to have worse morals!

"We'll have to agree to differ on this but I say biblical commandments deny the complexity of life and are a poor substitute for reasoned, feeling ethical discourse. With a tiny bit of imagination I'm sure you can think of scenarios where even you would be forced to bend your absolutes. (And be no worse a man for it.)"

I agree with this – almost. The Bible does not teach a system of morals for every occasion. It teaches basic principles which then need to be applied in a bent universe. The rest of your comments on morality I appreciate but I am going to have to leave until I address the chapter on morality.
.
678. Comment #12879 by Ole on

I am a sports chaplain and I think it is ridiculous for players to pray that God would help them win. They should pray that God will help them to be better human beings and to show that on the sportsfield. Not seeking glory for themselves.

680. Comment #12897 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 14, 2006 at 9:23 am

"Wrong. I DON'T hate you religious believers. I admire your faith. But answer this: Do YOU HATE Gays?"

No – not at all. Why should I?

"How ludicrous. That God would condemn what he created. i.e Gays, Lesbians, Paedophiles, Murderers, rapists."

I think you are more than a little confused about the doctrine of creation. God created us as human beings and gave us the raw materials. How we develop them and use them is our responsibility.


"Why are you here?"

Because my article was posted on here and I am replying to the responses made.

"Do you believe you are doing God's work by attacking Atheists?"

No. By defending what God says.

"You should read your Bible properly. Your not supposed to preach outside of the Church."

Sorry – must have missed that one. My bible says that I should preach the Gospel to every creature!.

"You didn't answer my question earlier. WHAT created your God and what was he doing before time began?"

See my latest article if you want an answer - http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/decb06.htm


683. Comment #12992 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 12:53 am
"The more David equivocates on providing an explanation for that passage in Matthew 21, the more certain it becomes that he cannot explain it, certainly not rationally, and the more good he does those people that read this debate with an open mind to finally shake off the shackles of religion."

Yawn. Let me repeat what I said earlier – it is impossible to discuss a book written for grown ups with people who insist on reading it like a five year old. I am not aware of anyone who ever thought or taught that Jesus meant or was teaching that we could ask anything we want and we would get it. Just because I pray for a Rolls Royce, does not mean I am going to get it. The key is in the word faith and also according to your will. We need to ask in accordance with Gods will – without that it is not real faith. The slot machine view of prayer is just not a biblical concept. If you think that such a twisted childish and ignorant view of scripture is a killer argument then there is not much I can do….

And thanks for the info re the communication of animals – fascinating. I have yet to read any evidence of self consiousness, awareness of concepts or rabbits having a philosophy discussion.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

375. Comment #13020 by Logicel on December 15, 2006 at 4:43 am

 avatarDavid A Robertson,

Faith is crucial in order to accept the existence of God. How does an atheist develop faith?

Other Comments by Logicel

376. Comment #13026 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 5:12 am

 avatarThank you for finally answering a question clearly. Although that you've suddenly decided to label everyone who disagrees with you a child is definitely a step backwards in your own mental development.

You use the New International Version, so the text we are looking at is:

New International Version:


The Fig Tree Withers
[...]

21Jesus replied, "I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done. 22If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."


Let's look at the first part of what Jesus is supposed to have said:

I tell you the truth, if you have faith and do not doubt, not only can you do what was done to the fig tree, but also you can say to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and it will be done.


Jesus says, that if you have faith, and do not doubt, you can make fig trees wither and have mountains thrown into the sea.

Pretty clear there what Jesus is saying.

If you believe, you will receive whatever you ask for in prayer."

You say you pray for a Rolls Royce... not a very Christian thing to be praying for, enriching yourself.. isn't greed supposed to be a sin?

Therefore taking what Jesus said we have a number of possible conclusions.

1) Jesus Lied
2) Matthew Lied
3) You don't actually believe/have faith.

In regard to the Rolls Royce, I suspect your were being disingenuous when you said that, and you don't really pray for that. So let's look elsewhere.

What about all those people in New Orleans that prayed for the storm to miss them? Are you saying that not a single person in New Orleans really believed, really had faith?

We need to ask in accordance with Gods will – without that it is not real faith.

So.. what your saying is that it was god's will that the people of New Orleans were to be wiped out? Certainly if god had been willed to save those Christians in the city, then he would have answered their prayers. Since he wasn't willed, his will must have been to let them suffer and die.

Was it God's will that the tsunami hit and killed all those people? Are you saying not one christian prayed for the water to not hit? Not really the loving God as Christians like to portray him.. more like the mass murdering god of the old testament.

What in fact your are saying is that you can only ask for what god wants to do anyway (gods' will), which means that prayer is useless and you might as well not bother?

The only one being childish about the bible is you David. Like a spoilt petulant child you see what you want to see, not what is really there.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

377. Comment #13030 by BillySands on December 15, 2006 at 5:48 am

 avatar"Yawn. Let me repeat what I said earlier – it is impossible to discuss a book written for grown ups with people who insist on reading it like a five year old. I am not aware of anyone who ever thought or taught that Jesus meant or was teaching that we could ask anything we want and we would get it."

What a stunning rebuttal from Rev hypocrite there. It is so obvious, that his reasons don't need to be given - wow, I think I can hear the monkeys sing " I'm a believer". Martin, let me explain the position here (actually jesus said that you should have faith like a childs). The bible says something, but what it obviously and clearly says is not what it means. It actually means something totally different, because god is either a poor communicator or wants to test our faith, or is all in our heads. Now when faced with a verse like this, a christian has to lie to himself and others and ignore the diffuculty and resort to blind faith. that's how it work, you ignore it and say that it cannot be understood by man - except the minister obviousl - and good job too, becuse the church roof fund need your money.

David, remember the contest on mount carmel (1 or 2 kings 18?) Why don't you ask god what poster is on the wall of my office? If you can tell me, it will shut me up - lets hope your god doesn't go for a whizz when you ask him. I'll even email the answer to martin, and afterwards he can send it on to you, so you can verify the route and time.

By the way, Kirsty and Jessica never came round last night - another unanswered prayer:-( or maybe god turned them into man hating lesbeans for a purpose.

By the way, a lot of Christians don't take the NIV too seriously, as it is considered an apologetic work and not a translation as such. Speak Hebrew dave?

cant resist having a go at this from your latest article "Now we see how the astronomical evidence leads to a biblical view of the origin of the world. The details differ, but the essential elements and the astronomical and biblical accounts of Genesis are the same; the chain of events leading to man commenced suddenly and sharply at a definite moment in time' in a flash of light and energy"

Sorry? The bible says that the earth is flat and was created before the sun and the stars and that the sun goes around the earth. Life was created as is and didnt evolve (depending on which genesis account you want to ignore) man was made before the animals and then woman after that gen2, while gen 1 says that the animals were made first and then people together - truly amazing, and the bible says this all happened in 6 days around 6000 years ago, instead of 12 billion years ago. Yep, very litte difference to modern views. Ha Ha Are you sure you are not a clever satirist that is taking the piss out of christianity

Other Comments by BillySands

378. Comment #13032 by BillySands on December 15, 2006 at 5:56 am

 avatarPS David, considering your other stuff, who created god, or unlike matter that you find so hard to explain, did he always just exist. How absurd. Why do you assume that matter must have an origin, but god doesnt. It is exactlt the same problem, but dawkins is honest in his respone. You just invent a new concept. That of an eternal god.

Do you think hindus and muslims are deluded? Since you say that you are right, they must be. Shame you cant see it in yourself

Other Comments by BillySands

379. Comment #13034 by BillySands on December 15, 2006 at 6:02 am

 avatarAlmost forgot
"fascinating. I have yet to read any evidence of self consiousness, awareness of concepts or rabbits having a philosophy discussion."

Such ignorance and the evidence is out there. I pity you. I have yet to see a Lagomorph (rabbits and hares) chew the cud. But your bible tells me they do. And you have said that if something is in the bible it is true
Leviticus 11:6
"The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you"

You wacky christians

Other Comments by BillySands

380. Comment #13036 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 6:03 am

 avatar
And thanks for the info re the communication of animals – fascinating.


Glad to help out.

I'm a bit surprised you've never come across a lot of this. despite using it for your arguments. Maybe you spend too much time "worshipping" god and not enough time appreciating the actual world around you.

I have yet to read any evidence of self consiousness, awareness of concepts


If by self-consciousness, you mean self awareness, then evidence against your belief in that is again easily found in apes. They are perfectly capable of recognising themselves in a mirror and acting accordingly, including wiping paint of themselves if it is poured on them.

Just in case you meant something more in-depth.

Here is just one article on animal consciousness, written from the perspective of an autistic author who's consciousness, in his own view, might be closer or more akin to that of animals than a "normal" human.

http://www.grandin.com/references/animal.consciousness.html

Again there is considerable debate in this area, as in all good science.

Awareness of concepts is harder to pin down. Notably because our use of language is more sophisticated than that of our nearest cousins. Are chimps that can sort shapes into same shaped holes aware of concepts or merely good at problem solving? Abstract concepts are even harder to determine in animals, mostly because abstract concepts are hard enough for most humans to communicate to one another.

I'm sufficiently humble to accept that animals could well have consciousness and certainly self-conciousness and don't discard it out of hand. Your religious view breeds arrogance in your view of yourself and humans as superior to the other creatures that share our world. I feel this cuts you off from much of the beauty and wonder there is in the world, because you are unwilling to be sufficiently open minded to accept anything that might challenge your own superiority.


[o]r rabbits having a philosophy discussion.


And you call us childish? Grow up David. Isn't it childish to lash out with a facetious comment like that after I demonstrated the fallacy of your language argument?

Other Comments by MartinSGill

381. Comment #13037 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 6:15 am

 avatar
"The rabbit, though it chews the cud, does not have a split hoof; it is unclean for you"


Here are the details of the process to create cud.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruminant


While cud is supposed to be regurgitated, you could read that passage as meaning that rabbits eat their own faeces, which they do. I used to have a rabbit as a pet and it did eat it's own pellets. I always suspected that by doing that it basically gave the digestion a second chance at pulling all the nutrition and stuff out the food that it could.

It could of course be that my rabbit was mad.

In which case the passage was translated wrongly. In either case the bible is wrong, regardless of how the error came about.

Maybe Leviticus also had a mad rabbit, to go with the mad master. "Bring forth the holy hand-grenade of Antioch".

Other Comments by MartinSGill

382. Comment #13040 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 15, 2006 at 6:26 am

Excellent points made by Billy S and Martin above.

I particularly like this passage from David Robertson in his review:

>>The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both. <<

This is most revealing!

1) We are NOT disciples of Professor Dawkins. He just happens to put forward our ideas in a very explanatory and articulate manner.
2) We don't agree with everything he says, but he isn't far off with our thinking - consider the opposite with David and the believers! They can't agree on anything! Who is correct? Muslims? Hindi? Christians? Scientologist? The Aetherius Society!?
3)We don't need 'hope' from your eternal God. We don't believe in his holiness! EVEN in the remote possibility that David is correct - and that God exists - then it would SURELY be a poor superior being, to condemn, decent-living people for not believing! After all, HE created us Atheists! HE created our lack of belief!
4)You talk about 'truth'. Not all theories can be true. God either exists/ doesn't exist. WHERE is your evidence for his existence? All we observe around us is NATURAL phenomena, in a NATURAL universe. Do you totally deny the possibility of their NOT Being a God? If so, you haven't founded your conclusions on anything other than what you've been force-fed. HOW do you make the conclusion that God exists, that Jesus is the light? Please display that evidence here, for all Atheists to review.
5) We Atheists REALLY ARE SEEKERS OF TRUTH, also. It's sad that you can't witness this. You think I am a bad person, for rejecting Supernaturalism? How do you make this conclusion then? I've never committed a crime; I've been faithful to my wife for 15 years; I don't hit or abuse my children; I don't smoke, drink and have NEVER taken drugs, other than those prescribed by the doctor; I try to learn new ideas all the time; I consider my neighbours and I drive correctly on the roads. I could go on and on... I don't consider myself special though. I consider this as 'normal' behaviour. Yet I don't believe. Are you SERIOUSLY telling us Atheists that people like me are DOOMED, yet lunatics like the London Bombers, or paedophile 'believer' priests are MORE respected in God's kingdom?! I think you should not only check your rationality, but also, that of your God and his philosophy. The belief system you hold so dearly, is seriously flawed. I could point out MANY errors in The Bible. Yet you insist that this CLEVER creator made the universe and planets and stars and Quarks and Atoms and life-forms; yet he can't create a text which makes ANY sense to rational-minded individuals. You really are losing in here David. Every post you make, just confirms our Atheism even further. I'd suggest you consider NOT attempting to anger Atheists - which is your true purpose; you're certainly not in here to do God's bidding - and concentrate on your flock and your own religious beliefs. You will NOT succeed in upsetting us Atheists - your true purpose - indeed, you only CONFIRM what many of us have already come to suspect; that Theists are the most intolerant, ignorant and unloving of all Humanity. You're right. Were wrong. We're evil, evil, evil. Why do you care? What does it matter to you? Don't post anymore Bible passages in here, for crying out loud! We don't believe the Bible has any authority whatsoever.

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

383. Comment #13041 by BillySands on December 15, 2006 at 6:28 am

 avatarRabbits do eat their own poo. They have bacteria in the caecum that further break down the undigestable stuff and produce some vitamins, so they do get more out of it by eating it again. Perhaps all rabbits are mad though. Now do I count to 3 ? or was it 4 ...?

Other Comments by BillySands

384. Comment #13044 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 6:43 am

 avatarActually... NoLongerHaveBelief I'm the one posting bible passages. Let's not accuse David of more nonsense than he's actually guilty of, he's already got enough on his plate.

He just fails to rationally explain what that passage says in plainest English. He keeps avoiding the issue by saying no one actually teaches that, insults us by calling us children and generally looks down on us as inferior for actually reading the words on the page.

Maybe when he was a child his daddy said... "if you tidy your room you will receive some chocolate.", and he tidied his room and didn't get any chocolate and ever since then he has associated the word "will" with the meaning "won't". I can't see any other reason for him not actually being able to read the words on the page.

Edit: Corrected a sentence so that it made more sense.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

385. Comment #13046 by Fedler on December 15, 2006 at 6:56 am

 avatarMr. Robertson,

I haven't appeared on this thread since page 10. I had resigned myself to the fact that I was not going to get any respectable answers from this discussion to my questions about god's existence. That's all I care about. Does god exist? After that question is answered, only then it will be worth quibbling over the details of human nature.

In you last response to me, I believe you told me to pray to try to 'find god' (unfortunately the response is on page 10 of this thread which now seems accessible due to some glitch in the system). Sadly, I feel this response was like telling someone who is on a diet to go eat some ice cream if they want to lose weight. However, it reminded me of something someone told me when I was in high school.

I hate beer. Can't stand it. However, after trying some in high school and spitting it out because it tasted so bad, someone who was trying to pressure me into having a beer said "it's an acquired taste". In other words, the more I drink, the better it will taste. You can probably see where I'm going with this. If something doesn't 'taste right' (religion), drinking more is only going to accomplish one of two things: 1) I'm going to get sick, or 2) I'll like it, but only because I'm too drunk to know what I'm doing. I'm reminded of the same thing when my family sits down to pray before meals, or when we go to church. I look around and wonder if people really have a conscious thought about what they are saying anymore. Religion has become a mantra to be spewed out on autopilot, to the point of having no meaning. In this way, I do feel the majority of religious followers are 'drunk' on religion. Practicing religion is more of a habit, than a profession of faith. WAY back in your original article on RDF that started this thread you state:

"You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences...?"

Frankly, no. People are that stupid when it comes to breaking old habits, like religion. Until reading some recent books (like Dawkins), it had never occurred to me that I could change my religion, or toss it out completely. It was something that was always so ingrained in me that I never questioned it. Never even considered questioning it.

So, now I'm questioning. Does god exist? In your most recent article you state how "god is outside time and space". I've heard this circular logic before and it's becoming tiresome. How do you know? There is no way to quantify that which allegedly lies outside of our ability to comprehend it. I've sought further guidance from your posts, but the explanations lack substance for me now. Partly due to the fact that we have different definitions of evidence, and partly due to the fact that I feel your posts are vague or abstract, as to mean anything - kind of like being 'drunk' on religion. I don't mean to imply you're drunk, but I only wish to point out how religion has a certain sedation quality nowadays among most practitioners (at least in my Catholic faith). I was drunk. I didn't realize I could question it like anything else.

I now hesitate to add that we have had 15 pages on this thread to provide sufficient reasoning for a belief in god. Obviously, it hasn't appeared to work. We can't agree on answers, or even the main talking points for that matter. I feel this thread has basically deteriorated to a 'territorial pissing match' as it were and it is really not beneficial to anyone anymore. Based on my recent experiences and my newly-discovered ability to question, I find it easier to believe there is no god. I don't feel that's my faith, I feel that's just simple fact.

Other Comments by Fedler

386. Comment #13047 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 15, 2006 at 6:57 am

Hi Martin.

Actually, I'm refering to other times When Dave posts the Bible at us!

I find it LUDICROUS that the believers say that God exists - because the BIBLE SAYS SO! This could apply to ANYTHING! The Mr. Men, Spot The Dog, or the Ladybird book of Witches and Wizards!

I agree with your sentiments though. David Robertson is the atypical believer; looking down their pious noses at the rest of us for DARING not to believe! The Bible is QUITE absurd in parts - and contradictory in others. Consider that centuries ago, when 'common' men were not allowed Bibles - it would be easy to visualise the amount of FEAR and CONTROL the church had over the populace.

No longer, however. As a species, there are many ordinary people, such as myself, who no longer want to be treated - as you so rightly stated - as children.

I watched the Omen the other day. Strange how, now I no longer have faith,(I have NO DOUBT GOD Doesn't exist - for extremely personal reasons; I've tested God and he ISN'T there), that the film had NO interest, nor was it REMOTELY frightening.

You know what IS frightening, though Martin? NUTTERS throwing themselves into buses, strapped up with explosives on the streets of Iraq; LOONIES hijacking aircraft and throwing them into buildings; British-born 'Muslims' throwing their lives away and murdering INNOCENT people on trains... and on and on.

It's clear WHERE the problem lies. NO Atheist would do this 'for our cause'.

HOW do you defend this Mr.Robertson? It is unjustifiable you relgious zealot.

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

387. Comment #13049 by David A Robertson on December 15, 2006 at 7:14 am

Ok Just going away for the weekend so will make this brief.


695. Comment #13020 by Logicel

"Faith is crucial in order to accept the existence of God. How does an atheist develop faith? "

An atheist already has faith. Faith is based upon the evidence that we have and involves trust.

696. Comment #13026 by MartinSGill


"You say you pray for a Rolls Royce... not a very Christian thing to be praying for, enriching yourself.. isn't greed supposed to be a sin?"

Precisely.

"Therefore taking what Jesus said we have a number of possible conclusions.

1) Jesus Lied
2) Matthew Lied
3) You don't actually believe/have faith."

Or you havn't a clue what you are talking about? The passage is saying that if we pray according to the will of God then we will get what we/he wants.

"So.. what your saying is that it was god's will that the people of New Orleans were to be wiped out?"

What a sad mechanistic black and white world you live in. With 'logic' like yours the next time I bang my big toe I will have to regard this as proof that God does not exist because if he did exist and was all powerful he would not have wanted me to bang my big toe. Even my 9 year old cvan see the stuoidity of that kind of reasoning.

700. Comment #13036 by MartinSGill on am

Interesting ideas about animal consiousness and awareness of concepts. Of coure the Christian views God as superior not humans. The atheist will either a) regard humans as the apex of 'creation' or b) the same as other animals – which is going to make it kind of difficult for all us non-vegetarians.


702. Comment #13040 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 15, 2006 at 6:26 am

"Are you SERIOUSLY telling us Atheists that people like me are DOOMED, yet lunatics like the London Bombers, or paedophile 'believer' priests are MORE respected in God's kingdom?!"

No – I am not. In fact it is obviously very difficult to tell you anything. You have a remarkable capacity to not listen. You keep asking questions, refusing to answer questions and when you are answered you then head off with another bunch of accusations. If you could stick to the point it would be helpful. How about interacting with what I have said. Rather than this gut anti religious reaction that just keeps pouring out?

705. Comment #13046 by Fedler on December 15, 2006 at 6:56 am
Mr. Robertson,

"I haven't appeared on this thread since page 10. I had resigned myself to the fact that I was not going to get any respectable answers from this discussion to my questions about god's existence. That's all I care about. Does god exist?"

Yes - Have a look at the latest article. Please feel free to interact with that.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

388. Comment #13050 by David A Robertson on December 15, 2006 at 7:16 am

Since you keep wondering all over the place - everything from anger to rabbit poo - perhaps if I post the latest article here it might help you to interact with what I am actually saying - and not what you are all so angry about....

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Finally we arrive at the centre of your book and its main argument. The title of this fourth chapter is a bold claim. (You will notice that I have retitled it because I actually think the chapter does the very opposite of what you set out to do). In it you propose to prove, insofar as it is possible, that there is no God. I truly found this chapter astonishing. Allow me to explain why. I had expected that your case against God was to be a cumulative one – a bit like your view of evolution. Faced with the mountain of Divinity and the universal belief of humankind in a God or gods, I expected you to climb Mount Improbable gradually, building a case slowly and leading us by a cumulative process to the view that there is no God. However you go for the big leap. You think you have the killer argument and you can go straight to the Holy Grail of atheism, and then have a gentle slide downhill afterwards, picking of the remaining theistic arguments because you have already proved there is no God.

What is this killer argument? The one that even Nietzsche could not find? Your argument goes like this. Evolution is true. Evolution explains the illusion of design. The design argument is the main argument for God. Therefore there is no God. And the reason that the design argument does not work? The point that you think almost 'certainly' proves there is no God is an astounding one. It is the core and heart of your intellectual justification for your emotional atheism. I almost feel at this point that there should be a drum roll….The argument is "Who designed the Designer?"

In your own words:

"Once again, this is because the designer himself (herself/itself) immediately raises the problem of his own origin"

"Indeed design is not a real alternative at all because it raises an even bigger problem than it solves: who designed the designer?"

"But whatever else we may say, design certainly does not work as an explanation for life, because design is ultimately not cumulative".

"As ever the theists answer is deeply unsatisfying because it leaves the existence of God unexplained"

"To suggest that the original prime mover was complicated enough to indulge in intelligent design, to say nothing of mind reading millions of humans simultaneously, is tantamount to dealing yourself a perfect hand at bridge"

It is clear that this point is very important to you and the foundation of the rest of your arguments. When I read it I was genuinely shocked. Not because of its originality, killer force or overwhelming logic, but rather because of its banality. 'Who made God?' is a question I would expect from a six year old. Likewise "Who made God then?' is the accusation I would expect from a sixteen year old. I am genuinely surprised to find the world's most famous atheist (now that Anthony Flew has defected) and an Oxford Professor to boot, using it as THE intellectual foundation for his atheism. This is the argument that is going to change the world? This is the key?! Forgive my incredulity and perhaps even the slight mocking tone but you are very quick to mock some of the stupider theistic arguments. Using the 'Who made God?' argument is the atheist equivalent of the argument from degree.

The answer to the question who made God is simply 'nobody'. God is not made. God is the Creator, not the creation. God is outside of time and space. (This is not to say that he is not also in time and space and that there is not plenty evidence for him there). God creates ex nihilo. That's what makes him God. He does not craft from what is already there. He creates time, space and matter from nothing. I realise for you that is a nonsense because the core of your creed is that evolution means that everything starts from the simple and becomes more complex, therefore because that is the case (and any designer would have to be incredibly complex) God cannot exist. But even if we grant that this is true for biology, biology is not everything. To argue as you do is to take an incredible leap of faith and to beg the question. Who says that everything, including God himself, has to come from something? Christians and other theists do not argue that God was created. That is precisely the point. He did not come from anywhere. He has always been. He did not evolve, nor was he made. If there is a personal Creator of the Universe then it makes perfect sense to regard him as complex, beyond our understanding and eternal. When you state that you can disprove God because there can de facto never be anything that was uncreated you are engaging in a circular argument. We do not believe in a created God. We believe in an uncreated supernatural power. I'm afraid you disprove nothing when you argue against the existence of a created God.

Let us assume for the moment that evolution is true, why would that disprove God? Let us assume that the Intelligent Design movement (and to be fair it should be pointed out that this is a particular political/philosophical/scientific movement primarily in the US) is wrong – why would that disprove God? It would disprove one argument that some theists use but there are many other arguments and there are many Christians who do not accept the ID science and who continue to be believers in the God of the Bible. You mention with particular praise Kenneth Miller, of Brown University and author of Finding Darwin's God. He strongly disagrees with Behe and with the whole ID movement. By your logic he should then be an atheist. But he is not. He is a Theist. I am sure you would not call him stupid but you do accuse other theists who are also 'good' scientists of 'compartmentalising'. To my mind this is patronising and the equivalent of accusing them of a fundamental dishonesty. To you they have the evidence to prove there is no God (who designed the designer?) but they do not have the moral courage or the mental capacity to embrace the logical conclusions. Except of course these conclusions are not logical. As McGrath puts it "There is a substantial logical gap between Darwinism and atheism, which Dawkins seems to prefer to bridge by rhetoric rather than evidence" (Dawkins God – p87).

In order for there to