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Friday, November 10, 2006 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document Dawkins Delusion (3rd article, Same Stupid Title)

by David Robertson

UPDATE11-15-06: David Robertson has continued his discussion of The God Delusion here:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/novb06.htm

Reposted from:
http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/nov06.htm

Thaks to James for sending it in.

Dear Dr Dawkins,

Forgive me for writing you but I am really frustrated. You see, I read your book, The God Delusion (great title but of course it does just open itself to the rejoinder in the title above – which I am sure many others will pick up on). There was so much in it that I could identify with and yet so much that was to my mind just simply wrong. I would love to discuss it with you, or with those who are your disciples, but I'm afraid that I am not an Oxford Don, I don't have access to the media you do, and I am not part of the Establishment. Therefore it is very difficult to dialogue about these things. And of course you have stated that you do not discuss with 'fundamentalists' or those who would be stupid enough to disagree with you. Apparently you want 'intelligent' conversation and anyone who believes in revelation or supernaturalism is de facto non intelligent, therefore not worth discussing with. Given that the subject you are so vehement about is the whole question of supernaturalism and whether there is a God or not, do you not think it is kind of loading the dice to only discuss with those who already share your presuppositions?

Anyway although I do not expect you to read this, I am writing it for my own benefit and for the sake of those who having read your book, perhaps share the same frustrations, or maybe have even been influenced or feel threatened by it. Of course I realise that most people who buy your book will already be converts – they already share your faith and will be looking for reassurance or confirmation. Although your book is an evangelistic work, written with the specific intention of converting religious readers to atheists by the time they reach the end, you know as well as I do that the vast majority of people who read it will already be convinced. You are preaching to the choir. This is rather obvious even from the people who write the blurb on the jacket cover, admittedly not normally unbiased objective judges. Stephen Pinker, Brian Eno, Derren Brown and Philip Pullman all wax lyrical about your book – but then they would wouldn't they? Each of them being convinced atheists already and fairly desperate to have their particular belief system endorsed. Pullman wants your anti-faith book to be put into every faith school (nothing like wanting to indoctrinate children is there?). Eno says it is 'a book for the new millennium, one in which we may be released from lives dominated by the supernatural'. Heady stuff. But best of all is Derren Brown who affirms The God Delusion as his 'favourite book of all time'. It is 'a heroic and life-changing work'. He wants those who are 'secure and intelligent enough to see the value of questioning their beliefs will be big enough and strong enough to read this book'.

Well, I have read it. I did expect to be challenged. But actually I was very disappointed. Of course it was well written, very entertaining and passionate. But at an intellectual and logical level it really misses the mark. I'm sorry but I honestly think I could have made a better case for atheism. Most of the arguments are of sixth form school boy variety. And this from the 'one of the worlds' top three intellectuals' (as the book jacket so helpfully reminds us). Is this really the best that atheism has to offer? (Memo to self - why did I once feel so challenged by atheism?). What is disturbing about this is that your fundamentalist atheism will actually be taken seriously by some and will be used to reinforce their already prejudiced anti-religion and anti-Christian stance. Your 'arguments' will be repeated ad nauseum in newspaper letters columns, opinion pages, pubs and dinner tables throughout the land. You will forgive me saying this but it seems remarkably similar to the kind of thing that 'intellectuals' were putting out in 1930's Germany about the Jews and Judaism. Just as the Jews were responsible for all the ills in Weimar Germany, so according to your book religious people are responsible for the majority of ills in today's society. Along with John Lennon you want us to 'imagine' a world with no religion. A world which you claim would have no suicide bombers (I assume it slipped your mind that the majority of suicide attacks have been by the secular Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers?), no crusades, no 9/11, no Israeli/Palestinian wars etc. By the way John Lennon was one of my heroes and I loved Imagine. Then I grew up and realised that it took a great deal of imagination to take seriously a song which spoke of imagining a world 'with no possessions too' written by a man who lived in a mansion and had an abundance of possessions, whilst there were millions dying from lack of resources. It seems to me that your vision/imagination is almost as unrealistic as Lennon's. You want us to imagine that there is no God. And then you do not really address the consequences of such a belief. Of course you have some awareness of what these are. That's why you tell us that although when it comes to biology you are a strict Darwinianist, when it comes to politics, society etc you cannot go that route. Social Darwinianism would bring Hell on earth. I agree with your conclusions – I just find it difficult to follow the logic.

Over the next few weeks I want to write a letter in response to each of your chapters. As you correctly point out each of them deals with issues that are fundamental to our existence, meaning and well being as humans. But let me finish off this introductory letter by looking at a couple of other things you state in your own introduction.

You state that your book is for those who have been brought up in a particular religious faith and now either no longer believe it, or are unhappy in it and want out. You want to raise the consciousness of such people to the extent that they can realise that they can get out. Do you really think that people are that stupid? Do most people not already know that is perfectly possible to leave a religion and not suffer any significant social consequences – at least in non-Islamic countries? I was brought up in a religious home and knew from a very young age that not only was it possible to leave, but that for many people it would be considered normal. Indeed none of my four siblings currently attend Church. In Evangelical Christian terms they would be considered 'backslidden'. But perhaps you are right – maybe they have been raised to a higher consciousness first? I fought my own battles so that I could be free to think for myself. But it was not just, nor even primarily, against the religious teachings of my parents or others (and I did fight against them), but also the patronising expectations of teachers, media and others who just assumed that the only reason anyone would be religious was because of parental influence, brainwashing and a weak mind. You know the real relief came when I realised I could be a Christian and think for myself and seek to make a difference in the world. And that I did not have to buy into the all the quirks and cultural things of religious groups, nor the fundamentalism of the secularists who just knew that they were right.

I cannot think of a single career option in Britain where being an atheist would place you at a disadvantage (unless you are thinking of becoming a bishop – although given the recent history of men like Holloway that does also appear to be a career option for atheists). However there are many people for whom admitting they are 'religious' is a severe block to their career and life. Those who seek to be Christian politicians, singers, businessmen, teachers and social workers often face significant prejudice and irrational fear. It is sometimes advantageous to deny one's faith or even to leave it. Being a Christian is more often than not a stumbling block to one's chosen career path, rather than the other way around.

Of course there are those who belong to cults who exercise a form of mind control tantamount to brain washing but surely even you would not argue that every religious person is in that category – imprisoned in the snare of their own religion until the good knight, Sir Richard Dawkins, rides to their rescue and sets them free?! You seem to think that anyone who is religious is actually at a lower level of consciousness and needs to be set free by becoming an atheist. Of course you offer no empirical evidence for this. Like much of the book it is a presupposition (even a prejudice) which does not appear to be founded on anything other than you would like it to be so. Have you ever thought that there might be many others who are in the opposite position – brought up in an atheistic secular society and discovering that they can actually believe in God? Would you give them the freedom to do so? What would you do if your daughter turned out to be a Bible believing Christian? Would you disown her? Would you even allow her that choice? Or have you done your best to inoculate her against the virus of religion? I remember one young man, highly intelligent, who came to a Christianity Explored group. When he was asked his religious position he said 'I'm an atheist, but I'm beginning to have my doubts'. I laughed. A backslidden atheist! I thought that was quite neat. Maybe there are a lot more of them than you think. You ought to be careful about the raising of consciousness – maybe people will become tired of your modernist certainties and instead find refuge in the clear fresh air of Jesus Christ!

I also smiled when I read your complaint that atheists were persecuted and misunderstood. Apparently you are the new 'gays' who need to 'come out'. Forgive me for saying this but I had not noticed that atheists were particularly silent or poorly represented in British society (or even American). In Britain all our government institutions, media outlets and educational establishments are primarily secularist. The National Secular Society or the British Humanists get a far bigger exposure than the vast majority of Christian churches – despite the fact that most secular societies could fit their members into a phone box. Even when the Prime Minister is asked a relatively innocuous question about whether he prays, his media minder Mr Campbell felt compelled to point out 'we don't do God'. Atheism and secularism are without doubt the prevailing philosophies of those who consider themselves the elite.

You were given the immense privilege of having editorial control of your own TV series 'The Root of all Evil'. Can you tell me when Channel 4 or even the BBC last gave an evangelical Christian the opportunity to produce a film demonstrating the evils of secularism? Do you not think that in an open and democratic society when you are allowed to make a 'documentary' attacking whole groups of people that they should at least be allowed some right of reply? Of course that is not going to happen – because as you well know, those who are primarily in charge of our media outlets are those who share many of your presuppositions and prefer to make programmes which present Christians as either weak ineffective Anglican vicars, or tub thumping American Right Wing Evangelists who want to hang gays. Anything other than this simplistic view would be wrong. It is propaganda – not truth, not reason, not debate and most certainly not fair.

A few weeks ago it was reported that there was a meeting of BBC Executives where some had the gall to challenge the prevailing BBC philosophy. At that meeting it was admitted that the policy of the BBC was that secularism was the only philosophy to which others must eventually come. In other words other philosophies and belief systems can be tolerated but they must never be allowed any real say in the BBC. Some had the audaciousness to suggest that perhaps the BBC should recognise that secularism was a philosophy and not the philosophy. I hope that you will support such pluralistic open-mindedness.

But I suspect that you have written your book, not because atheists are a persecuted minority needing to come out of the closet, but rather because the atheist hegemony is now being challenged from all sides. In fact, having had a century of elitist domination and control many in the Western World are beginning to wake up to the fact that the secular emperor has no clothes. The 20th Century can truly be called the Failed Atheist Century. Can I recommend that you read an excellent book on this subject, written by one of your Oxford colleagues Niall Ferguson, The War of the World (History's Age of Hatred)? He shares your evolutionary secularist presuppositions but his account of the 20th Century is a stunning indictment of the failure of secularism and 'science' to bring peace on earth.

Your book comes across as a desperate attempt to shore up secularism's crumbling defences. To that extent it reminds me a lot of some of us in the Church, who faced with what seems to be overwhelming odds and staring defeat in the face, sometimes issue evangelistic tracts, articles and books which rather than really being aimed at the conversion of unbelievers are really designed to shore up the faith of the faithful. The God Delusion fits nicely into that category. I am sure you will delight your disciples, such as Philip Pullman, establishing what they already believe, but I very much doubt you will make any impact on others who are less fixed in their opinions and who really are seekers after truth. What I do appreciate about what you say is that, unlike the cowards and the lazy who want to deny its existence, you admit that there is such a thing as truth. You may laugh at the idea that the truth is ultimately found in Jesus Christ. However I remain an optimist. I believe not only in truth but also in the power of God and his Holy Spirit to bring enlightenment to even the darkest mind. So there is still hope for us both,

Yours etc

David Robertson

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401. Comment #13179 by BillySands on December 16, 2006 at 4:18 am

 avatarFedler, I can really identify with some of the stuff you said earlier. One piece of evidence concerning the christian's claim of gods existance, and one that is easily testable is the biblical claims of prophecy fulfilment by jesus.
We have already taken the virgin birth prophecy apart here, and the bethlehem prophecy. All David can offer is that a propecy about someone else in a different time and circumstance is still about jesus (we are still waiting to be told how this works) I suggest you go through matthew and note the fulfillment claims. They usually have a footnote to take you to the original prophecy. Read it in context. You will be amazed how they dont refer to jesus. The only rational explanation is that Matthew made things up with the deliberate intention of deceiving. For example, in Matt 2:15, matt tells of jesus returning from egypt to fulfil a prophecy. The foot note tells us it is Hosea 11:1 ""When Israel was a child, I loved him, and out of Egypt I called my son." Clearly the son is the nation of israel (at the exodus). Reading on to verse 2: "But the more I called Israel, the more they rebelled against me. They sacrificed to the Baals and they burned incense to images. This can not be about jesus, unless you believe that he rebelled against god. Once you have gone through them for yourelf, you might want to read these links. Hope this is helful
Billy

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/jim_lippard/fabulous-prophecies.html
http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/farrell_till/prophecy.html
http://www.geocities.com/paulntobin/messianic.html
http://members.aol.com/ckbloomfld/bepart16.html#ref1621

Other Comments by BillySands

402. Comment #13233 by Fedler on December 16, 2006 at 10:02 am

 avatarBilly, thanks for the site references. I particularly found the second link fascinating when it discusses "nonsensical prophecies" - so-called prophecies that aren't really prophecies at all, essentially just literary fluff.

Other Comments by Fedler

403. Comment #13498 by David A Robertson on December 18, 2006 at 2:48 am

710. Comment #13053 by Ewan D

"No. 2 Atheism entails one and only one philosophy. "

I'm not sure that this is what I said. I think it is fair to say that there are several different versions of atheist philosophy – although I have not noticed any variety on this website.

I am also interested in your comments about God and meaning. As an atheist could you tell me what the meaning is of life? The universe?

712. Comment #13057 by Logicel on December 15, 2006 at 8:00 am

"David A Robertson, Thanks for your reply. If I already have faith, then what is it that I need to do to believe in God? "

Knowledge. Experience. Understanding. Humility.

713. Comment #13058 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 15, 2006 at 8:05 am
"David. We are not making progress here at all. You moan that we're NOT providing good debate - whilst ignoring our remarks and continuing your attack on Professor Dawkins."
Actually I try to answer several of your many points each time.

>>God is outside of time and space<<

"How do you know this please? Is it an assumption?"

Yes. IN the same way that a circle is round, a square is square and a donkey is a donkey. No theologian believes in a 'created God'. When Dawkins argues against a creted God he is arguing against one that no one believes in.

"You are the one providing a circular argument. Everything we understand is WITHIN our universe."
How intriguing? So when Dawkins goes on about parallel universes etc in the God Delusion he is just being stupid? The point is that we understand that the universe is finely tuned. Who did the tuning? Or did it just happen?

"God is beyond Time and Space is MOVING the goalposts again."

Nope. We have always said that. We also argue that he is in time and space as well.
.
"PLEASE PROVIDE PROOF OF YOUR CREATOR. You should be able to provide some proof, after a life time of belief. WHERE IS IT?"

If you read through my articles and continue to read you will find the answer to your question. Of course you may not like or agree with those answers.


"As incredible as this seems, matter and energy may have come about from ONE escaping particle from the matter/antimatter bombardment."

And where did this particle come from? What did it escape from?

"Life is not ordered. Life is chaos. One child grows to an adult and lives 99 years. Another may have Progeria and die aged 10. Perfectly sensible in an Atheist universe, complete NONESENSE in a universe 'created' by a 'loving God'."

I do not agree that life is chaos. Nor meaningless. Nor empty. I do believe that an all powerful God could use randomness to allow a universe which has both life and free will.


"Numerical arguments are pointless and irrelevant."

Fascinating to hear a scientist claim this. Personally I think mathematics is the foundation of all scientific understanding. Sad to see an atheist dismissing it in such glib terms.

"The fact we are here PROVES existence is possible, REGARDLESS of the odds."

Really. How do you know you are here? How do you know you are not a dream? How do you know that you are not wired up to the matrix and that your body is really not just an electricity generator for a supermachine?

" TECHNICALLY you and I have more chance of being murdered than winning the lottery - yet people win the lottery every week and you and I have yet to be murdered, DESPITE THE ODDS BEING LOWER. Your argument here is INVALID."

No need TO SHOUT. It does not make my argument invalid. Yes – odds and the balance of life in the Universe are extremely valid arguments.


716. Comment #13088 by MartinSGill on December 15, 2006 at 10:17 am


"What will you do if your son becomes an atheist, or worse, a muslim or hindu, based on the "evidence" he sees?"

Love him, discuss and pray.
Now – since this seems to be so important to you – let us return to Matthew 21. 22. (Before your fellow atheists have a go at me for quoting scripture I should point out that I am only responding to Martin who seems to think that this passage proves the bible is false and that therefore there is no God). The Greek word used is diakrithete which is a 2nd person plural subjunctive of diakrino, 'to be of a divided mind'. What Jesus is teaching is not that anytime someone prays anything they will get what they ask for (providing they can only work up enough faith in themselves) but that 'no task in harmony with God's will is impossible to perform to those who do not doubt'. No one at the time, or ever since has believed that Jesus meant that The 4,000 foot high mount of Olives would literally take a plunge into the Dead Sea. That is basic common sense reading. And that is what you need to read the Bible. When Jesus said 'I am the Door' – he did not mean ' I am wooden and have a handle'. When I say 'I watched the sun go down' I do not mean that the sun goes round the earth. Your excessive literalism just does not make sense in any way.

"s New Orleans was not spared, and I am sure loads of people prayed, therefore saving New Orleans was not gods will."

Correct.

"As such, being one removed form god, christians see themselves as masters of all "creation"."

No. We see ourselves as being stewards and servants of creation. We are to look after it because it is special. We do not see ourselves as the apex of evolution and we do not think our selfish genes have the right to exploit or destroy others.


") Yes, we are the same as all animals. By your reasoning though (more 3 year old logic here from our petulant priest) lions (animal) should not eat anitlopes(animal), sharks (animal) should not eat human (animal). Oh dear, your logic seems to have come unstuck. Probably because it was not so much logic as pure childish petulance."

Ignoring the insults let me point out that your position would seem to lead to an amoral position. If it is in the nature of a seal to take a bite out of a salmon and then leave it to die – fine. If humans are just another animal species then it if is in our nature to kill, rape etc then fine. Who can condemn us acting according to our animal instincts?
"There is a blue dinosour in my flat. You can't see him because he is outside of time and space. Now... a rational person will at once point out... how do you know he's blue then?"
Precisely. Even more how do you know he is a dinosaur? What does that phase mean? And what is your point?

"outside time and space, then he can't interract with us, because to do so he would have to enter our time and space and hence wouldn't be outside it anymore."

Again that is precisely what happened. In Jesus Christ supremely God entered time and space. If you had read my latest article you would see that I argue both – God is the creator of time and space. He existed before there was time and space and matter. But that does not preclude him entering it. If I build a house that does not mean I cannot enter it.


"By argueing he is outside time and space you have just invalidated everything you know about god because you cannot, since he is out of time and space, know anything about him."

Again precisely correct. The only way we could know is if he gave his evidence about himself and he has done so in several ways. Firstly in the orderliness and fine tuning of the universe he has revealed something of himself. Secondly in the creation of human beings in his own image (as rational. Logical and loving creatures) he has revealed something of himself and thirdly in coming into this world in the person of Jesus Christ he has revealed something of himself.

717. Comment #13095 by Fedler


"he latest article is what I"m talking about. Saying "god is outside time and space" is a non-explanation and not something I can interact with, nor do I want to spend my time discussing what appears to be a figment of an imagination."

Actually it is an excellent explanation. It may be one that you do not want to interact with, or cannot understand. But I cannot allow the limitations of either your or my mind to dictate what is true.


" My question then is how one can CLAIM an understanding of god. You make a claim of understanding god, but the "mathematical principles and order" observed above are naturally-occurring, and don't tell me god is behind them (or the mathematician that discovered them) because then that puts the burden of proof back on you to point out specifically where god's fingerprints are visible. "

The extraordinary part of this statement is the view that mathematical principles and order are 'naturally occuring'. No they are not. They are what makes nature. Where do they come from? It takes an enormous amount of faith to say they were always there. The existence of order in the universe is not 'natural'. We define what is natural by the existence of order. That is the first big hint we get of God. And there are a whole lot more once we grasp that basic principle.

" But most importantly, how can our discussion move forward if we both claim the same evidence? I'm asking seriously. Help me out here."

I don't think we do claim the same evidence. If you are following Dawkins line you are saying that because evolution is true then anything before life on earth must also have evolved. This strikes me as completely unprovable and fundamentally illogical.

"I, like the mythical 6-year old, am just looking for some concrete proof to sink my teeth into (something other than 'god is outside time and space'). "

The difference being that once you tell the six year old that no-one created God because something has to have no beginning they usually seem to grasp it.

718. Comment #13115 by Paul Creber on December 15, 2006 at 3:45 pm
"ut of interest, David, have you drawn the attention of your congregation to this debate? I've not seen any comments from them. I daresay you could do with some allies. "

Yes – my congregation are aware of it. But I guess they have more important things to do. I would not really want them to waste their time.

719. Comment #13119 by Paul Creber on December 15, 2006 at 4:04 pm
" What is at stake is the validity of his claim that complicated intelligence requires cumulative evolutionary steps. And is it valid? Yes, it is. Faced with the evidence before us, there is no other reasonable conclusion. "

I can accept that for evolution on earth. But it is an incredibly geo centric view of the universe to state that that is true for everything before life on earth. Why should it be? The existence of matter and or order in the Universe is not explained by biological evolution on earth.

"our statements about God "not being made", existing "outside of time and space" and "creating time, matter and space" are mere assertions."


"PC: I'm assuming that all the words above boil down to this: "Evolution must have had a kick-start, and I believe, along with others, that was God".
Feel free. I don't. So what?"

Incredible that someone who says they are of a scientific frame of mind is not interested in the origin of matter and the universe. It matters a great deal how the conditions for life and evolution were established.

"PC: A blindfolded golfer stands on a tee and announces his intention to score a hole in one. He succeeds, and the crowd bursts into loud applause. Why? Because he announced his intention before striking the ball. Had he not announced his intention, and had merely swung blindly at the ball, who would applaud when the ball landed on a particular blade of grass? At the Big Bang, no-one announced their intention to create human life on a planet with all the significance of a Saharan grain of sand. On the evidence before us, "fine tuning" is a preposterous description. Happenstance is a good one. "

Sure. It was just a wild chance (in a million million) that the 14 constants for life just happened to be in place in the Universe. Atheism does take a great deal of faith. By the way the Bible does say that God did announce his intention to create the conditions for life on earth.


"PC: Okay, the numbers game. There are an estimated billion billion planets in the known universe. I suppose you could say our number was up. Faith is the last thing it takes."

I think you are missing the point of the argument. It is not that there are billions and billions of planets (incidentally one of the early leaders of my Church wrote a book speculating about life on other planets called Astronomical Discourses in the 1830's!) but that the conditions exist for there to be billions and billions of planets. The existence of these planets can only be argued for in the terms I put in my latest article – which I am not going to repeat again.

720. Comment #13128 by Joadist on December 15, 2006 at 5:47 pm
David wrote:

"Thank you. That clarifies many things. A child would read the Bible as a literal truth. An Adult would read it as an ALLEGORY. "

Some times I wonder about atheists. Perhaps one of the best things you could do is take a course in literary criticism. Literature is not divided up into 'literalism' or allegory'. There are many other genres.

"No, my question is quite clear. Do you believe in Zeus, or Allah?"

No.

"Do you believe that angels come down from Heaven? "

Yes.
"Do they have wings?"
No.
"Do you believe that people can actually channel the power of God and heal the sick?"
No.

Bye….

Other Comments by David A Robertson

404. Comment #13510 by BillySands on December 18, 2006 at 3:45 am

 avatarIn a way it is good that david ignores my challenges. It allows me to put my point across unchallenged. It is interesting that he thinks that it would be a waste of his congregation's time to come on this site and try and save us. Probably because some would contradict him, like Finlay did eariler. Have you actually told them not to get involved?
The god is outside of space and time stuff. What a laugh. How ca you even compare that to a square or circle, which actually exist? Dont use the physical world to justify your fairy stories.
Interesting that he does not believe people can channel the power of god to heal the sick. maybe he should read his bible. James 5:14-15 "Is anyone among you sick? Then he must call for the elders of the church and they are to pray over him, anointing him with oil in the name of the Lord; and the prayer offered in faith will restore the one who is sick, and the Lord will raise him up"
For example. But hey, I know prayer doesn't work either, and david, regardless of what you want the greek to say, and you are talking rubbish here, my English bible doesn't say that. Also, did you know that a lot of the greek in the NT is of a pretty poor standard anyway. If only god hadnt mixed up human language at babel, this would never happen. Silly god!
I notice you concede the point that the bible is wrong on the history of the universe.
Again, I ask you to be a nice non hypocritical xian (some hope) and speak out against those in your church that want to impose their morality on us.
What about paleopathology and the fall myth. I forgot to mention before that we even have fossil parasites that pre-date humankind. What was that about a perfect creation again?
Toodle pip for noo

Other Comments by BillySands

405. Comment #13522 by Joadist on December 18, 2006 at 4:45 am

David,

Thanks..you provided me with two of the best laughs I've had in ages.

1: God announced his intentions to create life on earth...Really? To Mrs God?

2: Angels exist but no longer have wings...Guess God pulled off their wings like a kid does to houseflies.

BTW, yes there are many genres..but only TWO catagories...fiction or non-fiction.

Howver, no matter how you define it, the Bible still remains a comic book.

Other Comments by Joadist

406. Comment #13527 by MartinSGill on December 18, 2006 at 5:22 am

 avatar
Now – since this seems to be so important to you – let us return to Matthew 21. 22. (Before your fellow atheists have a go at me for quoting scripture I should point out that I am only responding to Martin who seems to think that this passage proves the bible is false and that therefore there is no God). The Greek word used is diakrithete which is a 2nd person plural subjunctive of diakrino, 'to be of a divided mind'. What Jesus is teaching is not that anytime someone prays anything they will get what they ask for (providing they can only work up enough faith in themselves) but that 'no task in harmony with God's will is impossible to perform to those who do not doubt'. No one at the time, or ever since has believed that Jesus meant that The 4,000 foot high mount of Olives would literally take a plunge into the Dead Sea. That is basic common sense reading. And that is what you need to read the Bible. When Jesus said 'I am the Door' – he did not mean ' I am wooden and have a handle'. When I say 'I watched the sun go down' I do not mean that the sun goes round the earth. Your excessive literalism just does not make sense in any way.


Finally, a straight answer. Took you long enough, why not say that right away, instead of insulting me by calling me childish?

Basically what you have just told me, and proved for me, is that the bible is false, or rather, that according to you, the bible has been wrongly translated from the Greek, so that its meaning has been changed.

The phrase I quoted is crystal clear in its meaning. What you have just said is that this meaning isn't what was originally intended. This raises a number of issues.

First and foremost, why is it that of all the 5 bibles that I quoted, your interpretation of the Greek texts does not coincide with what is actually written? You are one translator, those bibles were written by many more. The majority opinion of the translators would therefore indicate that you translated the meaning wrongly. Ironically, the only passage that I quoted that could support your translation, was from the JKV and that was the passage you objected to me using because of its age.

We have no established that the translators disagree. When I read a book that claims to tell me "the truth" then I need to have trust in the authors of that book. You have just shown me that I should not trust those authors, since you disagree with them on the translation of the meaning of this one passage. How can I therefore trust that anything else in the bible is correct, surely at this point everything must be suspect?

Finally, is your greek text the original text that Matthew wrote? (Based on historical evidence Fox believes that texts in those times tended to be anonymous, and I see no reason to argue with an eminent scholar of that time period, so we can't actually say Matthew even wrote it, but we'll leave that aside for the moment). Is your text a copy? A translation of a translation? You have already demonstrated that we cannot trust the modern bible as an accurate representation of the meaning of the texts. Why therefore can we trust the authors of the text you use? Maybe the translators of the current English versions had access to an older text that you don't have access to?

All of this can leave only a single conclusion, and that is that the bible cannot be used as evidence of anything, as you and other translators cannot even agree on the meaning of just a short passage in Matthew.

Most people don't have the time to go back to basics and try to translate the bible from source (if we can even find that source) and we have to trust the scholars and translators to do it for us. You have just proven that we cannot do that and therefore we cannot trust the what they wrote, the bible.


If it is in the nature of a seal to take a bite out of a salmon and then leave it to die – fine. If humans are just another animal species then it if is in our nature to kill, rape etc then fine. Who can condemn us acting according to our animal instincts?


Why are you not able to differentiate between our position in nature and morality? We are just like every other animal.

In fact many other animals are better than we are. They kill to survive, we humans kill for sport and entertainment. We humans kill each other on a massive scale over an idea, a belief. Surely since animals don't do that, only kill when they have to, that makes them more moral than us?

Dawkins himself has said often enough that a truly darwinian natural selection based society is not one he wants to live in. In truth, neither do many animals, certainly not the higher mammals. Again if you look to our closest cousins, the great apes you fill find that they don't murder, or rape nor steal. Those apes that do tend to get excluded from the social groups. Even fights over pecking order and similar are rarely to the death or even serious injury.

These cousins of ours don't worship a god, yet they seem perfectly moral by our standards.


"There is a blue dinosour in my flat. You can't see him because he is outside of time and space. Now... a rational person will at once point out... how do you know he's blue then?"
Precisely. Even more how do you know he is a dinosaur? What does that phase mean? And what is your point?


The point is that you cannot know god or anything about him, since you claim he is not in our time and space.

You claim that Jesus is the son of god. If we allow that Jesus actually existed, then the only proof we have that Jesus actually was the son of god is the word of a couple of people who may or may not have actually known him, that has been copied umpteen thousands of times, and translated just as often and as we have shown above cannot be trusted; very dubious proof at best.

That does not explain how in the old testament our protagonists actually interacted with god. Saw him walking around, spoke to him. Or are those mis-translated as well? Maybe the old testament is just legends, but then how do you justify the fact that the new testament isn't just a legend?

Other Comments by MartinSGill

407. Comment #13529 by BillySands on December 18, 2006 at 5:37 am

 avatarNow that I have a bit of time, matt 21:21 in greek can be found here http://bible.cc/matthew/21-21.htm
The word diakrino is used here for doubt, and in no way implies two mindedness http://bible.cc/matthew/21-21.htm

22:22 IN GREEK IS HERE http://bible.cc/matthew/21-22.htm
THERE IS NO WORD DIAKRITHETE HERE. HOW THOUROUGHLY DISHONEST OF YOU DAVID! The word for faith here is pisteuo, and means from pistis; to have faith (in, upon, or with respect to, a person or thing), i.e. credit; by implication, to entrust (especially one's spiritual well-being to Christ) http://bible.cc/matthew/21-22.htm

And the passage says nothing about being in accordance with gods will. You just made that up. That is what you want it to say. However, that is clearly not what it says

Other Comments by BillySands

408. Comment #13540 by MartinSGill on December 18, 2006 at 6:40 am

 avatarWhat an excellent resource Billy, thanks for that. I tend to use bible gateway, but this site is really good for version comparisons.

A couple of points about the greek though, is the greek there contemporary or classical, and what is the source of the greek text?

Not that it makes much difference. David will argue that he uses a different text.

I actually trusted David. Foolish of me really, I should know better by now. But I could make my point regardless, so I didn't bother.

I've done some more digging now. I found this page, written by what appears to be a Christian Greek Language scholar, at least he opens the page by saying "[...]regarding the word studies and books which God has had me working on for the past 25 years."

He actually does use the word David mentions... and even helpfully uses the passage under discussion as his example:

http://sigler.org/finnestad/word_stufdies.htm [sic]


GREEK VERBS (cont.)

8. Moods affect verb tenses. We already know that the aorist is a very strong pinpoint event in the past. The aorist subjunctive is a mood which adds a condition to this past tense. Something must happen for the aorist to become a pinpoint. This event may or may not happen dependent upon whether the condition is met.

EX: Mt 21:21 If ye have faith, and DOUBT (IVA. diakriTHEte, aor. subj.) not,

This is the passage where Jesus is explaining the power of faith. If we have faith and doubt not (this is the condition that must be fulfilled) then our belief in what we say can literally move mountains. (We always indicate the subjunctive mood when used with an aorist tense in our studies.)


Well, this greek language scholar agrees with my reading of that passage, not David's.

Alas I could not find any professional details of the author and hence cannot confirm his credentials. I suspect the person to be only a layman and the page confirms that his purpose in the site is to help people understand god's teachings, so it might well be biased. In respect to the passage under discussion it at leasts supports my, and the other bibles', interpretation of the passage and not David's.

I'll see if I can find a better source.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

409. Comment #13541 by MartinSGill on December 18, 2006 at 6:56 am

 avatarA slightly better source i think:


[A]n example is in Jesus' statement, "If you have faith, and never doubt," thus and thus will be done (Matt. 21:21, RSV). The word for "doubt" diakrithete, is in the aorist tense, meaning that one is not to doubt even for an instant. But the Greek word for "have," exete, is in the present tense, so that Jesus is saying that a person is to maintain faith in a continuing way in order for God to act on his behalf.

In Mark 11:22 Jesus says, "Have faith in God" echete pistin theou). Here the word for faith is a noun, so it has no tense, but the helping verb, for "have," is in the present tense, so the faith in God which Jesus wants men to have is a steady trust.


This source is quoted from a Professor of Theology, (Ph.d) at the Wesley Center[sic] for Applied Theology. http://wesley.nnu.edu/wesleyan_theology/theojrnl/01-05/05-6.htm

I'm afraid David that your fellow learned theologians seem to disagree with you, and agree with me. Or are they childish as well?

Other Comments by MartinSGill

410. Comment #13542 by BillySands on December 18, 2006 at 7:26 am

 avatarHi Martin,
I think David thinks that by pretending to know some greek he can make us think he knows what he is talking about. You definately put him right there though. I am always suspicious of a theist who randomly inserts irrelevant information like the gender, case and tense of a verse. They ususlly rely on the opponent blanking over. It is a bit like us saying. David, Pi=iCRT/LogEa therefore god doesnt exist! Sounds impressive, but it's bollocks.
I think, although the site does not make this clear, that they use the original greek, although, I have come across some hebrew variants in some other verses that I looked at (for proper bible study david!). Eitherway, it agrees with the English translators and not with David. I would like to see a bible written by someone like david, where all these extra phrases and agenda based suppositions are included, and embarrasing verses are smoothed over or deleted. It would be interesting to see how different it is from the real thing.

David, I have never been able to reconcile this verse with anything other than a nast tyrant god. Can you explain it? 2kings 2:23-24 "From there he went to Bethel. As he walked along the road, some boys came out of the city and mocked him. They said, "Go away, baldy! Go away! Looking back, he saw them and cursed them in the LORD's name. Two bears came out of the woods and tore 42 of these youths apart."

Talking of Morality, Paul says that he only knows right from wrong because of the law (reminds me of the sleeping around arguement here) rom. 7:7 "I wouldn't have known sin, except through the law. For I wouldn't have known coveting, unless the law had said, "You shall not covet." Shame he is so morally bankrupt to only know right from wrong from the bible. A sence of good and bad is innate in just about every person. People who have never read the biblical law, still know that theft, murder and rape are wrong. DAVID, WAKE UP!

Why is his god unable to make sense? I think we know why, let's just hope david realises it too (maybe he does)

Other Comments by BillySands

411. Comment #13544 by BillySands on December 18, 2006 at 8:00 am

 avatarOh and david, where does god state his intention to make the universe habitable? and where in genesis does he make air?
Flat earth created before the sun 6000 years agoin a geocentric universe, the flood, special creation, talking snake, etc and you say in your latest article that this closely agrees with modern science. Poor deluded faith head.

Other Comments by BillySands

412. Comment #13552 by Fedler on December 18, 2006 at 10:34 am

 avatarFedler: " My question then is how one can CLAIM an understanding of god. You make a claim of understanding god, but the "mathematical principles and order" observed above are naturally-occurring, and don't tell me god is behind them (or the mathematician that discovered them) because then that puts the burden of proof back on you to point out specifically where god's fingerprints are visible. "

David Robertson: "The extraordinary part of this statement is the view that mathematical principles and order are 'naturally occuring'. No they are not. They are what makes nature. Where do they come from? It takes an enormous amount of faith to say they were always there. The existence of order in the universe is not 'natural'. We define what is natural by the existence of order. That is the first big hint we get of God. And there are a whole lot more once we grasp that basic principle."

Mr. Robertson,
I, too, stand in awe at the 'fine tuning' of nature and I feel fortunate that we have the ability to appreciate it. However, I don't have faith that it was always this way. Like biological life forms (us), the cosmos have steadily 'evolved' into its current state ever since the first nanosecond after the Big Bang. Physicists have proven this through the concept of Inflationary Cosmology. While physicists still don't know what actually banged or what caused the Big Bang, the field is studying that issue and I do have faith that an answer will be discovered eventually. This gap in knowledge could be filled with the god hypothesis, but it feels premature to do so. Like a stream of water that naturally carves out a niche for itself in the countryside, it seems feasible to say physical laws also have a natural way of carving out their own little niche in the physical universe. (I actually believe this is on its way to being described in physics as a Higgs field [a baseline energy field to which all physical systems flow]).

The same concept of Inflationary Cosmology explains how the universe (when taken as a whole) is actually highly DISordered. The parts of the universe that have cooled (after the initial blazing hot temperatures in the Big Bang) have clumped together to make the galaxies, stars, planets, etc. As a miniscule inhabitant of one mediocre planet in a backwater outer arm of the Milky Way, our immediate world can seem highly ordered. However, our view is not representative of the whole picture as discovered through cosmology. I recommend reading The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene for further details.

Fedler: " But most importantly, how can our discussion move forward if we both claim the same evidence? I'm asking seriously. Help me out here."

David Robertson: "I don't think we do claim the same evidence. If you are following Dawkins line you are saying that because evolution is true then anything before life on earth must also have evolved. This strikes me as completely unprovable and fundamentally illogical."

As stated above the cosmos have also evolved and evolution only applies to biological life forms. Cosmology strives to account for the evolution of planetary bodies and the 'stuff' that makes up the universe.

Other Comments by Fedler

413. Comment #13557 by BillySands on December 18, 2006 at 10:54 am

 avatarWell, again we see davids unsupported faith at work. A god that has never appeared to him made the laws of nature, and david doesn't need to prove it. PROVE IT DAVID. You have no evidence, just blind faith. The big bang is testable. How yould you design an experiment to show god exist, that he exists outside of space and time and that he created the universal laws? If you cant, then all you have is faith, no facts whatsoever. All your excuses are needed because god is not real

Other Comments by BillySands

414. Comment #13563 by Donald on December 18, 2006 at 11:44 am

Wow, this is a long thread.

David Robertson has my respect for being so patient and polite, and engaging with atheists. I like politeness.

The thread seems to be still live, so perhaps I might get an answer from David too.

(1) From comment #13050:
You [Dawkins] think you have the killer argument [...] Your argument goes like this. Evolution is true. Evolution explains the illusion of design. The design argument is the main argument for God. [..] The [killer] argument is "Who designed the Designer?" [...] It is clear that this point is very important to you and the foundation of the rest of your arguments. When I read it I was genuinely shocked. Not because of its originality, killer force or overwhelming logic, but rather because of its banality. 'Who made God?' is a question I would expect from a six year old. Likewise "Who made God then?' is the accusation I would expect from a sixteen year old.

The trouble is that the 6-(or 16)-year-old's question is like the child in the story saying "but the Emperor is naked". It is TRUE and is exactly the right point to demolish an illusion, but the adults are conditioned not to say it. In that story the adults are frightened of appearing stupid, or of challenging the Emperor.

In this case, the indoctrination, and endless repetition of dogma, has the effect of conditioning even intelligent adults to say "but God just IS". After the indoctrination and repetition it no longer seems to need an explanation. To atheists, it needs explanation exactly as much as the wonderful world around us does.

If you see "who made god?" as trivial instead of a powerful argument, that is the result of indoctrination and repetition.

Actually, we agree implicitly on one thing. -- that the infinite regression of "but who designed the designer of the designer....." is pointless.

Theists take one step along this chain because they consider that life could not have arisen without a designer, but then condition themselves not to notice that any designer would itself be something complex, and would require just as much explanation.

Atheists prefer to say, "the world just is" instead of "god just is", because after evolution to explain the wondrous array of life, and scientific theories(*) that explain the wondrous working of the universe, atheists see no need to invent a "god" to explain the wonders of life.

The "what's underneath the turtle?" question is similarly devastating to the myth that the earth is supported by a turtle. Rather than say "the turtle just floats in space" we prefer to say "the earth just floats in space".

The variant "but God is outside space and time, so we can't ask what created/designed it" is sometimes used. It is equivalent to saying "God just is", but has the advantage that the space/time distraction provides a figleaf for refusing to admit that God must be something complex, and refusing to allow the question. It isn't any more credible to atheists than the simple "God just is".


(2) From comment #13050:
I am sure you would not call him [Ken Miller, a theist against Intelligent Design] stupid but you do accuse other theists who are also 'good' scientists of 'compartmentalising'. To my mind this is patronising and the equivalent of accusing them of a fundamental dishonesty.

I read TGD and I didn't read "dishonesty" into Dawkins' use of 'compartmentalising'. I think we all 'compartmentalise'. We may think our knowledge is integrated and pretty consistent, but really it's patchy, incomplete, and fragmentary for all of us. The growth of children's knowledge is an endless sequence of adding, amending, correcting, improving, and resolving contractions. It doesn't ever stop really - we tend to notice it less as adults. But throughout life, we occasionally encounter contradictions or inconsistencies and have to amend our beliefs about things or people.

Incidentally, did you know that although there are theists at all levels of scientists, belief in god amongst scientists has decreased over time, and the higher up the scale of scientific achievement one looks, the smaller the proportion of believers?

BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998
Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0
Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8

DISBELIEF in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).

From "Leading Scientists Still Reject God." Nature, 1998; 394, 313.
or read: http://www.atheists.org/flash.line/atheism1.htm


(3) From comment #13050:
Why is there something rather than nothing? And why does that something manage to produce you and I? That is not a question which you can just brush aside or express no interest in.

This is an interesting question. We only have partial explanations from science. Complex life from single cells is explained now. The first cell is not yet explained, but the knowledge gap between chemistry and biochemistry is shrinking all the time. Looks to me that science will explain how the first cell could have got assembled before too long. As regards physical constants being fine tuned to enable the complexities of chemistry, well we are in THIS universe, not any other. I'm not sure it needs explanation, although you are right that many scientists are beginning to suspect (for various other reasons) that this universe is only one of many others, much as our sun and solar system are only one star and planetary system amongst billions of billions(**) of others in the observable universe.

All very interesting and wonderful, but I still don't see any benefit to imagining a god in addition to the stuff we have discovered.


(4) From comment #13050:
Your position is the scientific one and you set up the debate so that it is always the forces of reason and science against the blind irrationality of faith. I'm afraid that that just does not square with the facts.

In a way I agree with those words, your first sentence does not square with the facts. I know this is not what you meant :-). I must jump in here and challenge the assumptions you built into the first sentence. I think it's Religion that set up the debate. Religion made the assertion that god exists. Religion asserts that faith is required, and must be sustained in the absence of evidence. The forces of reason, weak at first, gradually gaining in strength as evidence is gained over the centuries, have lately been raising their voices in this debate.
But what did you mean by "not square with the facts"? I read your text, but I could not find which "facts" you meant here.


(5) From comment #13050:
The reason that we believe in God is because of the evidence, because of science (knowledge), because of what we see in the universe.

I'm genuinely baffled here. What is the evidence and science that leads to god? Please itemise the most important points, because when I view the evidence I know about, I see it indicating that god is superfluous.
I share your awe of the wonders of the universe and understand the natural human reaction of the pre- scientific era to postulate a god to explain it all, but that doesn't count for me as scientific evidence.

Perhaps for you, awe of the complexity and beauty of the universe and human love is evidence for god.
That's ok, but it causes confusion to us scientists if you call it scientific evidence. We just call it awe.


(6) From comment #13050:
I'd take the awe of understanding over the awe of ignorance any day.

GREAT! We agree!!


(7) From comment #13050:
To raise the dead or create a virgin birth seems to me to be, if not quite chickenfeed in comparison, at least very probable and doable and certainly not illogical. Besides which I would regard it as a whole lot more logical to believe that an eternal omnipotent God could raise the dead, than to believe that the explanation for our universe involves there being multi universes...

Oh dear, we don't agree after all.


I wonder if David will give a thoughtful reply.

Donald.

(*) that's theories in the sense of scientifically-established theories, a.k.a. facts. Unfortunately the word 'theory' covers a wide range of meanings.
(**) note that I do mean "billions of billions" not "billions and billions" - very different!!

Other Comments by Donald

415. Comment #13644 by David A Robertson on December 19, 2006 at 1:40 am

Again with rare exceptions I note the inability of atheists who are responding to actually respond to the articles written. I guess if I wrote down the back of a cornflakes packet I would still get the same points being made. It is the curse of fundamentalism…


But thanks to Donald at the end for restoring my faith in atheists!

725. Comment #13522 by Joadist on December 18, 2006 at 4:45 am

"Thanks..you provided me with two of the best laughs I've had in ages."

Glad to be of service….

"1: God announced his intentions to create life on earth...Really? To Mrs God?"

Nope. To the angels.

"BTW, yes there are many genres..but only TWO catagories...fiction or non-fiction."

And your point is?

726. Comment #13527 by MartinSGill on December 18, 2006 at

"Basically what you have just told me, and proved for me, is that the bible is false, or rather, that according to you, the bible has been wrongly translated from the Greek, so that its meaning has been changed."

Nope. The Bible has been correctly translated.

"The phrase I quoted is crystal clear in its meaning. What you have just said is that this meaning isn't what was originally intended. This raises a number of issues."

Nope. Again the meaning is not difficult. At least not for an adult. When Jesus said I am the door you could argue that the meaning is clear – that he meant he was made of wood etc. After all that is what he said. Any adult understanding would recognize that he was of course talking about being the entrance to something. When he talks about moving mountains no one has ever thought – 'oh if only I have enough faith then I will be able to command Everest to fall into the sea! I'm not sure why you are having such difficulty with this most basic use of language. Are all atheists as literalist as this?

"Finally, is your greek text the original text that Matthew wrote? (Based on historical evidence Fox believes that texts in those times tended to be anonymous, and I see no reason to argue with an eminent scholar of that time period, so we can't actually say Matthew even wrote it, but we'll leave that aside for the moment)."

Yes – it is a copy of the original – based on several hundred copies of the original. I am glad that you are not willing to argue with an eminent scholar of the that time period. So one assumes that you would not argue with DA Carson, FF Bruce and the vast majority of biblical scholars. Or could there be the slightest possibility that you cite Mr Fox because he agrees with what you have already decided?


"All of this can leave only a single conclusion, and that is that the bible cannot be used as evidence of anything, as you and other translators cannot even agree on the meaning of just a short passage in Matthew."
It's true that the bible cannot be used as evidence of anything to people who cannot read.

"Why are you not able to differentiate between our position in nature and morality? We are just like every other animal. "

yes – that is what I feared atheists thought. Thanks for confirming it. It strengthens me in my resolve to do all I can to resist the evil of atheism. The consequences would be horrendous.

"Dawkins himself has said often enough that a truly darwinian natural selection based society is not one he wants to live in."

Indeed. His inconsistency in this respect is something to be thankful for. Of course its not logical nor sustainable but at least for the moment we should be thankful for small mercies.

"The point is that you cannot know god or anything about him, since you claim he is not in our time and space."

Please reread my article. That is not what I said.

728. Comment #13540 by MartinSGill on December 18, 2006 at 6:40 am

I really am not sure if I should be debating with people who think that Google or Wikpedia makes them an expert on Biblical Greek! Would you debate with me about evolution if I used AIG as the source of all knowledge? Is it not all a bit pointless. However I have nothing else to do…

"A couple of points about the greek though, is the greek there contemporary or classical, and what is the source of the greek text?"

It was contemporary for the time (Market Greek as opposed to classical).

"I actually trusted David. Foolish of me really, I should know better by now."

I know. Half an hour on Google and hey presto suddenly you can argue biblical Greek. If only I had known that before I spent three years learning the language!

732. Comment #13552 by Fedler on December 18, 2006 at 10:34 am


"Mr. Robertson,
I, too, stand in awe at the 'fine tuning' of nature and I feel fortunate that we have the ability to appreciate it. However, I don't have faith that it was always this way. Like biological life forms (us), the cosmos have steadily 'evolved' into its current state ever since the first nanosecond after the Big Bang. Physicists have proven this through the concept of Inflationary Cosmology. While physicists still don't know what actually banged or what caused the Big Bang, the field is studying that issue and I do have faith that an answer will be discovered eventually. This gap in knowledge could be filled with the god hypothesis, but it feels premature to do so. Like a stream of water that naturally carves out a niche for itself in the countryside, it seems feasible to say physical laws also have a natural way of carving out their own little niche in the physical universe. (I actually believe this is on its way to being described in physics as a Higgs field [a baseline energy field to which all physical systems flow])."

Whilst I appreciate your faith position you will forgive me saying that it is very much like a 'science of the gaps' argument. Could you please answer which of the three views of the origin of matter you hold to? (again see my article for them).


734. Comment #13563 by Donald on December 18, 2006 at 11:44 am

Donald, thanks for such a thoughtful and engaging post. A few responses.

"In this case, the indoctrination, and endless repetition of dogma, has the effect of conditioning even intelligent adults to say "but God just IS". After the indoctrination and repetition it no longer seems to need an explanation. To atheists, it needs explanation exactly as much as the wonderful world around us If you see "who made god?" as trivial instead of a powerful argument, that is the result of indoctrination and repetition."
No. I disagree completely. At a superficial level and at the level of a child the 'Who made God' argument appears attractive precisely because we have been conditioned to believe that everything has been made. I have actually never heard the 'God just is' argument at all. I have however heard, even in response to my latest article, 'matter just is' and we have to accept that.

"Theists take one step along this chain because they consider that life could not have arisen without a designer, but then condition themselves not to notice that any designer would itself be something complex, and would require just as much explanation."
Why? I don't wish to keep repeating myself so have a look at http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/decb06.htm

"Atheists prefer to say, "the world just is" instead of "god just is", "

Which just proves my point above. And again indicates the degree of faith required to be an atheist.


"I read TGD and I didn't read "dishonesty" into Dawkins' use of 'compartmentalising'. I think we all 'compartmentalise'."

Unless you are a biologist who has evolved to a Higher Consciousness (see TGD!).

"Incidentally, did you know that although there are theists at all levels of scientists, belief in god amongst scientists has decreased over time "

No. The most through research has shown that the number of scientists who are theists has remained static in the 20th century. Which given a century of atheist propaganda is really quite astonishing. It is no wonder that the 20th Century has been called the failed atheist century.

"I think it's Religion that set up the debate."

No. Actually religion and science have usually got on well together. However ever since Huxley there are some atheists who because of their religious position have sought to create a division. Dawkins continues that tradition.

"Religion made the assertion that god exists."

Actually human beings made the assertion. And maybe it is because God exists that religion exists?

" Religion asserts that faith is required, and must be sustained in the absence of evidence."

No it does not. That is the atheist view of religion but it is certainly not the biblical view. To believe in the absence of evidence would be stupid. As can be seen from the posts above there is also a snes in which scientists have faith.

" The forces of reason, weak at first, gradually gaining in strength as evidence is gained over the centuries, have lately been raising their voices in this debate."

Again you are allowing your own worldview and prejudice to cloud your statements. Why do you attribute the 'forces of reason' to only atheists?

"I'm genuinely baffled here. What is the evidence and science that leads to god?"

Many things – if you read all my articles you should get most of them. In summary I would argue that the fine tuning of the universe, mathematics, the existence of order, the consciousness of God, the existence of morality, beauty, the history of humanity, the bible and Jesus Christ all offer more than enough evidence.

Other Comments by David A Robertson

416. Comment #13650 by BillySands on December 19, 2006 at 2:40 am

 avatarHey David, I'm still not going away, and I'm sure Martin will have some fun with your lame comments later too. That door comment really cracks me up. You would have us take one literal verse and one figurative verse and turn them round. By the way, why dont you quote that verse in full? Then we can all see that he means that he is the alleged way to salvation. Again, David, dishonest tactics, what do I expect from a hypocritical fundie, who promotes lies about scientists. You seem to have ignored my comments on your article. I will summarise for your limited intelligence. You use the arguement of incredulity a lot here as evidence for god. It just means that you are intellectually lazy and are limited in your ability to provide a rational explanation. Just like people though lightning and earthquakes were the work of god. One day our ignorance will be filled in. You might as well claim that pixies did it, because there is as much chance. If there is an unlikely god behind all this, he must have an explanation, and it certainly is not your god. That, incase you cant see it, is why I have been attacking the bible and theology (and the fact you make sweeping statements that dont stand up to scrutiny). Now address the points I have made and be a good little minister and tell your wee free friends that they do not have the right to shut up parks and cancel ferries on a sunday, or were you blowing it out your ass when you said that no one has the right to impose their morality on others? Or was it that no one has the right to impose their morality on you? Believe it or not, but I believe you have the right to your beliefs. I just know you are wrong and I live at a time when you fundies cant burn me for saying so, so I will.

Oh yeah, I showed your comment to a couple of christian biochemists, they disagree with you - plonker! (one of their comments) Retract that and apologise for spreading lies
Have a nice day

Other Comments by BillySands

417. Comment #13651 by MartinSGill on December 19, 2006 at 2:48 am

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"The phrase I quoted is crystal clear in its meaning. What you have just said is that this meaning isn't what was originally intended. This raises a number of issues."

Nope. Again the meaning is not difficult. At least not for an adult. When Jesus said I am the door you could argue that the meaning is clear – that he meant he was made of wood etc. After all that is what he said. Any adult understanding would recognize that he was of course talking about being the entrance to something. When he talks about moving mountains no one has ever thought – 'oh if only I have enough faith then I will be able to command Everest to fall into the sea! I'm not sure why you are having such difficulty with this most basic use of language. Are all atheists as literalist as this?


So when the bible says Christ was born of a virgin this is also figurative and he wasn't actually born of a virgin? The problem with biblical apologists like yourself is that instead of reading what is actually there, and which makes no logical sense, you decide to interpret it and treat it figuratively or allegorically (and insult those that don't). Why then should I not treat the issue of the virgin birth as allegory or figuratively? Why should I not treat the mention of Christ as the Son of god figuratively, maybe it meant Jesus' ideas were worthy of the son of a god, but he wasn't actually the son of god? What makes you able to tell which bits are allegory and which are literal?

To use your door example. Obviously Jesus isn't a door. But then using the same logic, obviously people can't be born from virgins, as it's a contradiction, so that must be figurative as well.


Yes – it is a copy of the original – based on several hundred copies of the original. I am glad that you are not willing to argue with an eminent scholar of the that time period. So one assumes that you would not argue with DA Carson, FF Bruce and the vast majority of biblical scholars. Or could there be the slightest possibility that you cite Mr Fox because he agrees with what you have already decided?


Everyone prefers a source that supports their own view. One of the reasons I deliberately use sources that I don't usually agree with, theology/religious sources, to demolish your beliefs, since those people share your view that god is real, and claim to believe what you do, making my points stronger.

I've read some of Bruces work, but I find his arguments flawed and the evidence he presents dubious. Then again, there are bits I don't agree with Fox about. Mostly because Fox is also doing a good job of showing me that the bible isn't as big a work of fiction as I'd thought it to be. While Bruce and Fox agree that the bible is inconsistent and often confusing (something you reject) Bruce argues that those issues are inconsequential and trivial to the main thrust of the bible, Fox disagrees and in my opinion provides the better arguments to think otherwise, mostly because Fox doesn't argue at all, merely presents evidence, allowing people to make up their own minds instead of trying to dictate their views.


I know. Half an hour on Google and hey presto suddenly you can argue biblical Greek. If only I had known that before I spent three years learning the language!


You seem to have difficulty with your reasoning. I'm not arguing biblical greek. I'm letting other people that I feel are better qualified than me, argue for me. Hence I never say "You are wrong, it actually means blah", instead I say "You are wrong, as the majority of sources (listed) say otherwise".

Unlike you, I am at least honest and name both my sources and my view of their credibility. You just seem to make things up as you go along. Certainly all we have had from you up to now is your belief, and not a shred of evidence or reference. You keep claiming outlandish things, that only humans can use language for example, that even a superficial bit of research can quickly demolish. You have never yet provided a shred of evidence to support any of your beliefs.

Tell me why I should give you more credibility than a professor of theology.

I also asked a Greek friend of mine, he lives on Crete and unlike you he has over 30 years experience with the Greek language. He disagrees with both you and the theologian website, ironically. When I asked him to translate the passage Billy found from the original Greek presented there, his translation agreed with that of the bibles I have quoted, without any of your silly misinterpretation, which he rejected out of hand as nonsense. Are you saying you know Greek better than a native?


yes – that is what I feared atheists thought. Thanks for confirming it. It strengthens me in my resolve to do all I can to resist the evil of atheism. The consequences would be horrendous.


Again your fundamentalist nature shows itself especially as you manage to completely miss the point again, reverting to your dogma. If you say atheism leads to evil behaviour then why are animals, such as apes, not raping, pillaging and mass murdering? Surely they are atheist? In your fundamentalist view of a selfish gene centric society, raping as many women as possible is the best way to ensure your gene's survive. So why do many species of mammals, birds and others mate for life with a single partner? Maybe they've read the bible? Or maybe your fundamentalist view is wrong?


Indeed. His inconsistency in this respect is something to be thankful for. Of course its not logical nor sustainable but at least for the moment we should be thankful for small mercies.


If you'd actually open your mind to the FACTS of the subject you're talking about you'd realise that Dawkins view is neither illogical, unsustainable nor inconsistent.

You cannot seem to grasp the complexities and differences between what our gene's "want" and what we as humans are able to do as a result. You think that moral behaviour is unnatural and hence only possible by having it imposed on us from outside by a god. Atheists aren't as simple minded. We see moral behaviour as natural, and just a single facet of an incredibly complex process that governs all life on this planet.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

418. Comment #13715 by Fedler on December 19, 2006 at 7:10 am

 avatarWhilst I appreciate your faith position you will forgive me saying that it is very much like a 'science of the gaps' argument. Could you please answer which of the three views of the origin of matter you hold to? (again see my article for them).

Mr. Robertson, in reviewing your three origins, I can't say I agree exclusively with one particular one. Based on the available proven science at hand from physics, cosmology, quantum mechanics, etc. (at least as much as I can understand it), I would have to say 'Something was eternal' if I had to pick just one.

Science is all about gaps, acknowledging there are gaps, and striving to find the answers for those gaps.

As explained before, obviously something banged in the Big Bang. Whether this material that banged is eternal remains to be seen, although there is evidence in the science that the Big Bang could have been only one bang in a string of bangs that took place.

From this banging, something (the universe) did come into existence, however I don't believe this banging material just poofed into existence out of nothing, either. Its origin is unknown at this time. It could be 'origin' is the wrong word since it implies a starting point, which may or may not be accurate.

Irregardless, I fail to see how the unknown origin of our universe implies the existence of a supreme being.

My faith is that humanity will continue to strive to find origins. I feel it's in our human nature to do so. This faith is different from theistic faith. It's more of a faith along the same lines that the sun will rise tomorrow, or faith that my wife still loves me even though I'm getting older and rounder. There is no rule saying atheists can't have faith in things.


Again with rare exceptions I note the inability of atheists who are responding to actually respond to the articles written. I guess if I wrote down the back of a cornflakes packet I would still get the same points being made. It is the curse of fundamentalism…

On a brief side note, may I request at the very beginning of your responses that you not collectively belittle those of us who are trying to thoughtfully post back to you. It only sours communication and questions the sincerity of the poster. We can be grown-ups.

Other Comments by Fedler

419. Comment #13722 by Donald on December 19, 2006 at 7:52 am

Robertson, comment #13644: have a look at http://www.freechurch.org/issues/2006/decb06.htm

I did. It's the same as comment #13050 to which my comment was a response. And it was after reading your article that I wrote "theists are conditioned not to notice that that any designer would itself be something complex". I see nothing in your article that contradicts my view. I note that you either consider that god need not be complex, or that you bypass the question.

I stated my view and gave reasons, and gave a suitable analogy illustrating the logical structure of the argument. You stick to your view, and we would only go in circles from here.


Robertson, comment #13644: Unless you are a biologist who has evolved to a Higher Consciousness (see TGD!)

This is an ad hominem, and not a response to my comment. The point being debated was dishonesty. You say Dawkins was accusing people of dishonesty when he said people 'compartmentalise' (and by implication, fail to notice contradictions in their own thought). I pointed out we all 'compartmentalise' (some of us more than others though) and it isn't an accusation of dishonesty (or patronising) to say so.

And, I have read TGD.


Donald, comment #13563: Incidentally, did you know that although there are theists at all levels of scientists, belief in god amongst scientists has decreased over time, and the higher up the scale of scientific achievement one looks, the smaller the proportion of believers?

BELIEF IN PERSONAL GOD 1914 1933 1998
Personal belief 27.7 15 7.0
Personal disbelief 52.7 68 72.2
Doubt or agnosticism 20.9 17 20.8

DISBELIEF in God and immortality among NAS biological scientists was 65.2% and 69.0%, respectively, and among NAS physical scientists it was 79.0% and 76.3%. Most of the rest were agnostics on both issues, with few believers. Biological scientists had the lowest rate of belief (5.5% in God, 7.1% in immortality), with physicists and astronomers slightly higher (7.5% in God, 7.5% in immortality).

From "Leading Scientists Still Reject God." Nature, 1998; 394, 313.

Robertson, comment #13644: No. The most through research has shown that the number of scientists who are theists has remained static in the 20th century. Which given a century of atheist propaganda is really quite astonishing. It is no wonder that the 20th Century has been called the failed atheist century.

You say "No." So, what, in the article I quote, is wrong? Where have they gone wrong? And what is this "most thorough research"? Can you provide a reference?


Donald, comment #13563: "Religion made the assertion that god exists."
Robertson, comment #13644: Actually human beings made the assertion.


Hmm. My first thought was to say the standard of this discussion is going downhill, but on second thoughts, that's a very useful point. I agree, of course, your statement is true. (And so is mine, under normal interpretations of English.)

Yes, human beings made the assertions. Human beings made the assertion that god exists. Human beings made the assertion that god wrote commandments on stone. Human beings wrote the bible. Human beings made the assertions that heaven and hell exists. Human beings made the assertion that there is an afterlife. Human beings made the assertion that god wants us to worship 'him'. Human beings made the assertion that god made man in his own image. Human beings invented the story of Adam and Eve. Human beings wrote the story of Noah's Ark. Human beings claimed that Jesus became alive again after three days dead. Human beings claim that Mohammed received instructions from allah and that allah is angry with those who don't believe in the allah version of god.

Ultimately, for all us, it depends on which human beings we believe. We all receive nearly all our beliefs from other human beings. I expect we agree on that.

You believe the handful of human beings who wrote the bible. I note that similar handfuls of people wrote about: greek gods, jewish beliefs, christianity, islam, hinduism, etc, etc, and they are mutually contradictory. At most one can be true.

Once one knows about the variety of different beliefs, each one claiming to the only true one, the true situation becomes obvious (to people who escaped indoctrination).

The combined efforts of thousands of scientists over the last few centuries have greatly expanded our knowledge about the universe and have found it to be predictable, following simple rules that allow for the emergence of life without a god. I believe them (in the sense of collectively - there are a minority who are mistaken or liars, just as with any large collection of people).

Part of my overall belief in them comes from the ethos of science. Science is open. All scientists argue, and the criterion for survival of scientific beliefs is consistency, and observations. This leads to confidence in the result.

Religions are less flexible. The 'holy books' are unchanging. Some religions do the best they can by throwing out some bits, and reinterpreting some bits, but the results are not convincing to those with a broader perspective.


Donald, comment #13563: The forces of reason, weak at first, gradually gaining in strength as evidence is gained over the centuries, have lately been raising their voices in this debate."
Robertson, comment #13644: Again you are allowing your own worldview and prejudice to cloud your statements. Why do you attribute the 'forces of reason' to only atheists?


I don't. Reason is used by theologians too. The phrase "forces of reason" is yours. I was responding to your criticism of Dawkins in comment #13050. You said "...always the forces of reason and science against the blind irrationality of faith..." I was commenting in the context you set up.


Donald, comment #13563: "I'm genuinely baffled here. What is the evidence and science that leads to god?"
Robertson, comment #13644: Many things – if you read all my articles you should get most of them.


I had already read your articles. That is why I also said in my comment #13563:

"Perhaps for you, awe of the complexity and beauty of the universe and human love is evidence for god.
That's ok, but it causes confusion to us scientists if you call it scientific evidence. We just call it awe."


Thank you for your interaction.

Other Comments by Donald

420. Comment #13735 by BillySands on December 19, 2006 at 8:34 am

 avatarhey david, who does mithras remind you of?
http://richarddawkins.net/article,441,Merry-Mithras,QI-BBC2#13731

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421. Comment #13746 by NoLongerHaveBelief on December 19, 2006 at 9:15 am

>>Comment #13644 by David A Robertson<<

>>No need TO SHOUT. It does not make my argument invalid. Yes – odds and the balance of life in the Universe are extremely valid arguments.<<

Again David, you have misunderstood. I use LARGE letters for emphasis - i.e. ITALICS. My words are not shouted at you. Apologies if you didn't understand or I am not making myself clear. But let's have a look at your 'Tolerant' self in your 'Tolerant' postings, eh? (Supposedly a man of God and love?)

>>I guess if I wrote down the back of a cornflakes packet I would still get the same points being made. It is the curse of fundamentalism…<<

NO NEED FOR SARCASM. NO NEED TO LINK ATHEISM TO FUNDAMENTALISM. NO NEED TO SUGGEST THAT WE ARE NOT CAPABLE OF UNDERSTANDING YOUR ARGUMENTS.

>>Nope. The Bible has been correctly translated.<<

OK. SO IS KILLING RIGHT OR WRONG? THE 10 COMMANDMENTS SUGGEST IT IS. MATTHEW 15:4 SUGGESTS IT'S OKAY TO MURDER YOUR CHILDREN? WHY THE CONFUSION. PLEASE EXPLAIN THIS PASSAGE.

>>It strengthens me in my resolve to do all I can to resist the evil of atheism.<<

WHAT EVIL OF ATHEISM IS THIS, PLEASE? I AM EVIL BECAUSE OF WHAT? LACK OF BELIEF? HOW DOES THIS MAKE ME EVIL. I LIVE A GOOD, CLEAN, MORAL AND PRODUCTIVE LIFE, THANK YOU VERY MUCH. AM I LOWER IN GOD'S EYES THAN THE 9/11 LUNATICS? PLEASE EXPLAIN WHY I AM EVIL AND HOW YOU KNOW?

>>'oh if only I have enough faith then I will be able to command Everest to fall into the sea! I'm not sure why you are having such difficulty with this most basic use of language. Are all atheists as literalist as this? <<

WHAT DO YOU MEAN BY LITERALISM? DO THEISTS NOT TAKE THE BIBLE, LITERALLY? YOU STATE THAT IT IS THE WORD OF GOD, NO? SO HOW DO YOU KNOW WHAT PARTS ARE LITERAL TRUTH AND WHAT PARTS ARE PARABLES? DOES THIS MEAN THEN, THAT I CAN PRETEND THAT CERTAIN PARTS OF THE 10 COMMANDMENTS ARE NOT LITERAL AND I CAN THEREFORE WORK ON SUNDAY? HOW DO YOU KNOW PLEASE, WHAT PARTS OF THE BIBLE ARE LITERAL TRUTH AND WHAT PARTS ARE NOT? OR DO YOU JUST CHERRY PICK, WHEN A BAD PART APPEARS?

>>In summary I would argue that the fine tuning of the universe, mathematics, the existence of order, the consciousness of God, the existence of morality, beauty, the history of humanity, the bible and Jesus Christ all offer more than enough evidence.<<

THERE IS DOUBT THAT JESUS EVER EXISTED, THOUGH AS AN ATHEIST, I BELIEVE HE DID. BUT HE WAS JUST A MAN AND NOT A GOD. AS FOR MATHEMATICS - THIS IS A HUMAN INVENTION. NUMBERS DON'T EXIST IN REALITY. PROVE TO ME NUMBERS EXIST. THE UNIVERSE IS NOT FINALLY TUNED. STARS DIE AND EXPLODE ALL THE TIME. EARTH HAS HAD PAST EXTINCTIONS, DUE TO EXTERNAL FACTORS - FACTORS THAT COULD ULTIMATELY DESTROY MANKIND. THE BIBLE IS EVIDENCE OF NOTHING. YOU COULD SAY THE MR.MEN EXIST BECAUSE THEY ARE IN BOOK FORM. NO DIFFERENT FUNDAMENTALLY TO THE BIBLE BEING TRUE. BEAUTY EXISTS, IN THE EYE OF THE BEHOLDER. WHAT ABOUT THE DARKER SIDES OF EXISTENCE, SUCH AS DISEASE, DEATH AND SUFFERING? YOU CONVENIENTLY IGNORE THESE FACTS - A LOVING GOD COULD NOT PHILOSOPHICALLY CONSIDER SUCH HORRENDOUS IDEAS. PROGERIA IN CHILDREN SERVES WHAT PURPOSE EXACTLY? THE LESSON IS WHAT, EXACTLY?

AGAIN, THE LARGE LETTERS ARE FOR EMPHASIS, NOT SHOUTING. OKAY? NOW PLEASE EXPLAIN ALL MY POINTS, IN A PROPER FASHION AND NOT IN THE VAGUE, EVIDENCE-ABSENT FASHION YOU HAVE BEEN DEMONSTRATING IN THESE FORUMS SO FAR?

THANKS.

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422. Comment #13748 by MartinSGill on December 19, 2006 at 9:19 am

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Robertson:
Again with rare exceptions I note the inability of atheists who are responding to actually respond to the articles written. I guess if I wrote down the back of a cornflakes packet I would still get the same points being made. It is the curse of fundamentalism…
Fedler:
On a brief side note, may I request at the very beginning of your responses that you not collectively belittle those of us who are trying to thoughtfully post back to you. It only sours communication and questions the sincerity of the poster. We can be grown-ups.


It's worth a try Fedler, but Roberston's default state seems to be to be to rudely opposed anything atheists have to say.

After all he's here "[...]to do all [he] can to resist the evil of atheism."

Since he considers us all evil, it's no wonder really that he's consitently rude to us and resorts to ad hominem and name calling instead of actually answering our questions and providing answers, as opposed to trying to force his views upon us instead of engaging us in debate.

If you read back to the beginning of this thread you'll find that most of the atheists he is being rude to have responded in kind to his ad hominems against us.

While I'd hope that he could hold a polite debate, he's shown time and again that he can't. Even Donald who tried his best to be civil (like most of us did to start with) received a personal attack, and the extremely common un-supported refusal to accept scientific fact.

I wish just for once when Rev. Robertson actually responded to comments here he could do so with supporting evidence instead of just saying "it is so". All I've ever had from him is his baseless belief in something and most of the time this view is easily refuted by evidence of other sources.

It's a good thing Roberston is a priest and not a scientist, because he'd be useless at the latter. No one would accept a scientific arguement that was unsupported by facts/evidence and above all valid and verifiable sources.

Other Comments by MartinSGill

423. Comment #13756 by Ole on December 19, 2006 at 9:46 am

 avatarDavid,

You said: he is outside of time and space
Does this mean that you see God as essence?

O.J.

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424. Comment #13760 by BillySands on December 19, 2006 at 10:06 am

 avatarI too wish DR would just discuss the challenges, but I can happilly do ad hominem and challenge at the same time if that is the way it has to be. David, why are you so confrontational? Very few people here have been rude to you from the start. I was polite until you said I was on pills and had half baked ideas. that was a red rag considering how much I tried to keep my faith. I am holding a respectful discussion on the christadelphian thread. Why are you unable to do so? You keep popping up on various threads with the intention of winding people up. Not a nice thing to do really. I'm sure if jesus was real, he would not be proud of you. Is this the way you want others to treat you? Consider this a biblical rebuke. If I were still a christian, that is exactly what I would have said to you (some of my christian colleagues think you are a bad example. Did jesus wind up non believers? was paul a jew to the jews and a gentile to the gentiles? Grow up david and practice what others preach about your jesus. At least that way, we may get some of our challenges answered, most of which come from your articles.
My theory is that when something seriously challenges you, like paleopathology or interpretation of verses, you ignore it or result to ad hominem.

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425. Comment #13789 by Paul Knowles on December 19, 2006 at 12:52 pm

If anyone was a crazed funamentalist its this Robertson bloke. What a deluded fool. I mean, he believes that there is an invisible bloke in the clouds who is controlling everything, and we, and society give him the time of day. He should be treated like the demented fool he is, with contempt. struth!!! it makes my blood boil.

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426. Comment #13792 by Paul Knowles on December 19, 2006 at 12:59 pm

Thing that gets me is that even if it could be proved beyond doubt that the universe came into being because of some space man designer entity, the religious still would not accept it because they want the answer to be THEIR GOD. Not an intelligent life form from another multiverse. That's the problem with blind faith. I swear that if someone went to the church and actually said "I have seen God, I spoke to him, we had diner together" they would send him to the nearest home for people with learning difficulties.

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427. Comment #13796 by Thrall on December 19, 2006 at 1:30 pm

Wait, i'm not sure if someone has said this yet, but "Matter just is just as god just is" arguement doesn't work. I can't reach my arm out and touch god, like I can with matter. Matter is there, unlike any evidence of god. TY

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428. Comment #13798 by BillySands on December 19, 2006 at 1:31 pm