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Thursday, August 21, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version Print | Comments

Document The rise of Miliband brings at last the prospect of an atheist prime minister

by AC Grayling - The Guardian

Thanks to Linda Ward Selbie for the link.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/aug/21/davidmiliband.labourleadership?commentpage=1&commentposted=1


The rise of Miliband brings at last the prospect of an atheist prime minister

In this climate of quarrels between religionists and secularists, there are very many reasons to hope for a non-believer at No 10

When Labour cabinet members were asked about their religious allegiances last December, following Tony Blair's official conversion to Roman Catholicism, it turned out that more than half of them are not believers. The least equivocal about their atheism were the health secretary, Alan Johnson, and foreign secretary David Miliband.

The fact that Miliband is an atheist is a matter of special interest given the likelihood that he may one day, and perhaps soon, occupy No 10. In our present uncomfortable climate of quarrels between pushy religionists and resisting secularists - or attack-dog secularists and defensive religionists: which side you are on determines how you see it - there are many reasons why it would be a great advantage to everyone to have an atheist prime minister.

Atheist leaders are not going to think they are getting messages from Beyond telling them to go to war. They will not cloak themselves in supernaturalistic justifications, as Blair came perilously close to doing when interviewed about the decision to invade Iraq.

Atheist leaders will be sceptical about the claims of religious groups to be more important than other civil society organisations in doing good, getting public funds, meriting special privileges and exemptions from laws, and having seats in the legislature and legal protection from criticism, satire and challenge.

Atheist leaders are going to be more sceptical about inculcating sectarian beliefs into small children ghettoised into publicly funded faith-based schools, risking social divisiveness and possible future conflict. They will be readier to learn Northern Ireland's bleak lesson in this regard.

Atheist leaders will, by definition, be neutral between the different religious pressure groups in society, and will have no temptation not to be even-handed because of an allegiance to the outlook of just one of those groups.

Atheist leaders are more likely to take a literally down-to-earth view of the needs, interests and circumstances of people in the here and now, and will not be influenced by the belief that present sufferings and inequalities will be compensated in some posthumous dispensation. This is not a trivial point: for most of history those lower down the social ladder have been promised a perch at the top when dead, and kept quiet thereby. The claim that in an imperfect world one's hopes are better fixed on the afterlife than on hopes of earthly paradises is official church doctrine.

Atheist leaders will not be tempted to think they are the messenger of any good news from above, or the agent of any higher purpose on earth. Or at very least, they will not think this literally.

Best of all, if David Miliband becomes prime minister, the prospect of disestablishment of the Church of England will have come closer. This is a matter of importance, for two chief reasons. The first is that the CofE's privileged position gives other religious groups too much incentive to try sharp-elbowing their way into getting similar privileges, such as the ear of ministers, tax exemptions, public funding for their own sect's faith schools, and the big prize of seats in the legislature.

Secondly, the CofE has far too big a footprint in the public domain, out of all proportion to the actual numbers it represents: just 2% of the population go weekly to its churches. Yet it controls the primary school system - 80% of it - and a substantial proportion of the secondary school system, with dozens more academy schools soon due to fall under its control. It is entitled to have 26 bishops sitting in the House of Lords, plus a number more who have been made life peers on retiring; and it has the automatic ear of government - do not suppose that if Rowan Williams phones No 10 he is told no one is at home.

Having a statedly atheist British prime minister makes it more likely that the functional secularity of British life and politics, the foregoing exceptions noted, will become actual secularity. Secularism means that matters of public policy and government are not under the influence, still less control, of sectarian religious interests. The phrase "separation of church and state" does not quite capture the sense in which a genuinely secular arrangement keeps religious voices on a par with all other non-governmental voices in the public square, and all the non-governmental players in the public square separate from the government itself. It means that churches and religious movements have to see themselves as civil society organisations like trades unions, political parties, the Scouts, and so on: with every right to exist, and to have their say, but as self-constituted interest groups no more entitled to a bigger share of the public pie of influence, privilege, tax handouts, and legal exemptions than any other self-appointed interest group.

As things stand, religious groups in our society get a slice of the pie vastly larger than their numbers or merits truly justify. The big advantage of an atheist prime minister would be that he or she would see that fact, and act accordingly. An atheist is not going to have the lingering sense that because someone has chosen to believe one or another ancient dogma, he is to be respected and honoured, listened to, given the public's money to bring up his children in the same beliefs and exempted from some of the laws of the land.

Note that none of the foregoing represents either a desire or a prediction that an atheist prime minister will actively militate against religion, certainly not by outlawing it or passing laws that make religious observance more difficult. Instead, one result of the removal of privileges and public money might be that the artificial amplification of religious voices and points of view in our society, and the hold that religion can exert on children and the psychologically needy, might become less. Religion flourishes in conditions of active support and active persecution; in a socially and politically liberal climate it diminishes through natural causes.

Religion is a matter of choice in that, unlike race, age, gender or disability, you can change it, or not have it at all. True, most people's faith was driven into them when they were small children, and belief can be hard to shake off if your community will reject or hurt you for your apostasy. But it is still fundamentally voluntary. As such it should pay its own way and take its place in the queue along with everyone else. That is something that an atheist prime minister might say, and we might all breathe a great deal more easily as a result.

Despite appearances, the world is not seeing a resurgence of religion, only a big turning-up of the volume of religious voices. This is itself a response to increasing secularism among people tired of the disruptions, obstructions and conflicts religion so often causes. Public acknowledgement of atheism by a senior politician who might soon lead his country is just one indicator of the fact that the tide is actually running in the opposite direction: and that is a welcome and hopeful sign.

· AC Grayling is professor of philosophy at Birkbeck College, University of London a.grayling@philosophy.bbk.ac.uk

Comments 51 - 100 of 252 |

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51. Comment #234564 by Sciros on August 21, 2008 at 3:17 pm

 avatar
Still waiting for an answer to the question - why is Stalins atheism as irrelevant as his facial hair but Millibrands is relevant?

You're asking an invalid question, because relevance is *with relation to something.* Stalin's atheism was as irrelevant as his facial hair *with relation to the evil deeds he committed.* Millibrand's atheism may be relevant *with relation to how he approaches decisions on certain policies.*

Whether you are Christian or not doesn't affect how you sit on the toilet but it may well affect whether or not you're more friendly towards people who attend Church on Sundays. There is no contradiction here, just like there is none in what you're [pretending to be?] confused by.

The way you're asking the question quite frankly betrays either complete stupidity or wicked disingenuity. Take your pick.

Other Comments by Sciros

52. Comment #234572 by Logicel on August 21, 2008 at 3:47 pm

 avatarInstead, one result of the removal of privileges and public money might be that the artificial amplification of religious voices and points of view in our society, and the hold that religion can exert on children and the psychologically needy, might become less. Religion flourishes in conditions of active support and active persecution; in a socially and politically liberal climate it diminishes through natural causes.
______

The important aspect would be that the elected leader is a KNOWN atheist. Belief or lack of belief is considered when voting and if a known atheist is elected, that would mean that the electorate is giving a mandate for that political leader to focus only on the secular, winnowing down any religious intrusion from the private into the public.

David Robertson, your question was clearly answered by Decius, and your pretending that it was not, just demonstrates your comprehension difficulty or, as Sciros stated, complete stupidity or wicked disingenuity. In your case, I suspect that you don't have to choose, and you can do both equally well at the same time.

Other Comments by Logicel

53. Comment #234576 by Vinelectric on August 21, 2008 at 3:55 pm

 avatarDavid A Robertson wrote:

Still waiting for an answer to the question - why is Stalins atheism as irrelevant as his facial hair but Millibrands is relevant?


Huge difference; people kill for religious reasons.

If you elect an atheist leader, you can hold them accountable to some clear and consistent standard e.g party policy, constitution or even the common sense of Secularism or Humanism.

With a religious leader, like Blair or Bush, they always have the option of taking the "I'm answerable only to God, mate" when cornered.

Understand?

Other Comments by Vinelectric

54. Comment #234595 by SurfDude on August 21, 2008 at 5:49 pm

 avatarI am fairly sure that David Cameron is probably a non-believer. But then again, even if he is CofE lite, I will still be voting for him as he is far and away the better candidate for PM and his party have made significant strides to return themselves to relevance. They have some pretty smart ideas too - with more to come (one of my friends is quite close to Cameron personally and the Tories are keeping a lot of very good stuff tucked away up their sleeves).

Very good article by the way.

Other Comments by SurfDude

55. Comment #234606 by KRKBAB on August 21, 2008 at 6:57 pm

There's an entire other issue in the USA besides the issue that we should look more at the total person instead of their being a theist or an atheist. That's the issue that politicians CAN'T say they are an atheist because they probably won't get elected. Disgusting and backwards but true. We atheists like reality. That's the ugly fucking reality here in America. I would see some light in the forest if several high ranking politicians "came out" as atheists, because you know there has to be a lot of them.

Other Comments by KRKBAB

56. Comment #234677 by Deadity on August 21, 2008 at 10:21 pm

L is for Labor. L is for Lice.

Other Comments by Deadity

57. Comment #234680 by David A Robertson on August 21, 2008 at 10:42 pm

I now understand. Stalins atheism was irrelevant to his evil deeds which were clearly not part of his politics or policies, whereas Millibrands atheism is part of his politics. And of course people kill for religious reasons and they would never kill for other reasons (money/power/greed/jealousy/sex) - especially they would never kill because of their atheism. When Stalin killed religious people it was of course nothing to do with his atheism. Religious people who are elected such as Blair and Brown are clearly not accountable to the electorate whereas atheists are. Stalin was of course answerable to the Party but then we know that that was a pseudo religion. So it is quite simple really. If an atheist leader is a bad atheist then we can simply point out that it was nothing to do with his atheism because atheism is nothing (atheists are simply those who do not believe in God - they believe nothing and do nothing because of their atheism so lo and behold their atheism cannot be responsible for any of their evil deeds). However if an atheist is a good atheist (and certainly Millibrand fits the description of someone who believes nothing and will do nothing!) then his atheism is what motivates and inspires him, and that is why all right thinking atheists should vote for him. Brilliant! Welcome to the weird and wonderful world of the FA!

Other Comments by David A Robertson

58. Comment #234681 by Steve Zara on August 21, 2008 at 10:51 pm

 avatarComment #234680 by David A Robertson

Sorry, but the equivalence between religion and atheism still fails.

The article is not about someone like Milliband being motivated by atheism. It is not about being inspired by atheism. It is about them not having to deal with religious hangups, such as the idea of suffering in this world leading to future heavenly rewards.

It is about not having religion get in the way of dealing with real-world problems, and not imagining voices in your head tell you what to do.

It is about having a truly fair society, where people who claim to have invisible friends don't get special privileges.

I hope the following analogy helps. I suffer from vertigo - a strong fear of heights. That gets in the way of me doing things. Others without vertigo aren't motivated by their lack of fear - they don't go around feeling inspired by lack of vertigo - they just get on with life and can do more than I can.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

59. Comment #234683 by Brian English on August 21, 2008 at 10:52 pm

 avatarHi David. Interesting points, I'd be interested to know how you think atheism (lack of belief in any god) can inspire one to do bad things. After all you don't believe in Zeus, or Woden, yet you seem to be claiming morality. A Hindu can be moral, yet not believe in your god. So it would appear that morality and belief in your particular god are not related.

The topic: I have no idea who this Millibrand is, but I wouldn't vote for him because he was an atheist but a cruel of vicious person. Just like I don't mind having a Christian as PM here because he seems to be governing along secular lines. The only thing that matters to me is the a government and PM govern for all people, not just Christians, or Muslims, or atheists or the majority rule.

Other Comments by Brian English

60. Comment #234686 by Diacanu on August 21, 2008 at 11:02 pm

 avatarDavid doesn't believe the argument-ad-Stalinium propaganda he spews, he's just politic-ing for his flock.

It's all politics.
He's a political animal, nothing more.

When pressed on how much he believes his superstitions, he runs away.

He doesn't believe it, folks.
Don't play into that.

He's a conman protecting his racket.

Which is what a fucking politician is.

Other Comments by Diacanu

61. Comment #234705 by Philip1978 on August 21, 2008 at 11:53 pm

 avatarDavid

Why don't you theists ever stop with this Stalin was an atheist so he was evil rubbish? No matter how many times you bring it up it still does not make it right!

Stalin exploited what was already there in front of him - the previous Russian Czars were all head of the Russian Orthodox Church, they were practically the Russian equivalent of Popes - they were the direct line to God so they were treated as such. Along comes Stalin, spies the stupidity in the masses and exploits it to his own advantage.

He did not do this because he was an atheist - being an atheist has NOTHING to do with a person's actions - what are they basing it on? What god is there to attribute these actions to?

This arrogant claim from all religious people about how since an atheist has no God therefore no morals is the biggest load of tripe I have ever encountered and it has got to stop.

The Pope is a religious man, supposed to be all moral, but he kills people because of his job - he is doing that in the name of Catholicism.

Osama Bin Laden is encouraging the killing infidels because he uses the words of his magic book to justify his actions - he does what he does in the name of Islam.

How many times do we have to repeat it to you?

If you were to take a good look at evolution, genetics, psychology - any field of scientific or anthropological study you like - you could happily explain why I am the person I am. You could go through my life history, you could check all sorts of reasons why I act the way I do but it HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH MY COMPLETE LACK OF FAITH!


So what if Milliband is an atheist? I wont be voting for him because I disagree with his policies and I have not been impressed by his political party's performance in office.

Like Brian said, I wouldn't care what religion the guy is or even his lack of religion - I want to know that he can be trusted to get the job done, pure and simple.

So will you PLEASE stop with this idea that atheist is the route of all evil and that without religion how can we be good people. You don't have a leg to stand on and its incredibly arrogant and small minded of you.

Other Comments by Philip1978

62. Comment #234709 by Diacanu on August 21, 2008 at 11:58 pm

 avatarPhilip-


So will you PLEASE stop with this idea that atheist is the route of all evil and that without religion how can we be good people.


He CAN'T stop.
It's his job security.

What else would he DO with his life?

I've asked him that one, he refuses to answer.
Could it be because he doesn't know?
He could correct me by answering.
Until he does, I'll assume yes, he doesn't know.

It's like how an addict's brain thinks it will die without its addiction.

Except his needle is Jesus.

Sad little man.

Other Comments by Diacanu

63. Comment #234712 by Steve Zara on August 22, 2008 at 12:06 am

 avatarDAR posted-

Religious people who are elected such as Blair and Brown are clearly not accountable to the electorate whereas atheists are.


We recently had a story posted here in which a vicar said he loved Jesus more than his wife.

That is a real problem with religion. You can be absolutely certain of what imaginary voices are saying, and that what those voices say is good and holy and true and from a creator who loves you personally. Those voices can be the most important thing to you ever.

That is just a touch dangerous if you are in power. You can end up doing things like going to war because you asked God and he said it was OK.

The problem, David, is that others asked God and he apparently told them it was not OK.

How do we decide which version of what God said was correct? We can't. So, to be fair to everyone, public discussions must involve reason and evidence, not personal feelings about what God said.

In a democracy, decisions have to be made based on reason, otherwise people with particular beliefs get privilege. You can't bring an invisible friend with you to public discussions.

It therefore healthier for democracies to be run by people who don't think they hear the words of God echoing in their heads.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

64. Comment #234714 by Philip1978 on August 22, 2008 at 12:13 am

 avatarDiacanu

I understand but I am bloody sick to death of him and all the millions of other bastard preachers, who keep running off to their credulous little flock and keep trotting this crap out to make sure that atheists are always going to be the polluted garbage that he claims we are.

He is supposed to be a historian for crying out loud, he could get a job writing books on that for all I care, pick an Age and go for it.

Its not my fault he reckons he can't be moral without his God and Jesus, that's his problem.

Too right mate, what a sad little man.

Other Comments by Philip1978

65. Comment #234715 by Diacanu on August 22, 2008 at 12:14 am

 avatarSteve Zara-


We recently had a story posted here in which a vicar said he loved Jesus more than his wife.


*Actually acid refluxes*

Don't get me going, C.S. Lewis pulled that shit.
I had a whole rant about it, and I could get going again with little provocation.

Shit like that is a fundamental violation of one's humanity at one's deepest core.

I think I'd actually take a prison raping over handing over my humanity like that.

It would be bad enough, but people actually see being that bad off of a zombie as a VIRTUE.

*Grimaces back another gurgle of acid*
Ghah.

Other Comments by Diacanu

66. Comment #234716 by mark65 on August 22, 2008 at 12:15 am

well mr robertson, thank you for coming here and sharing your condescending ignorance, how about you link us a christian forum you frequent so we can drop in and spread our shit all over it.

silly little godtard

Other Comments by mark65

67. Comment #234719 by Philip1978 on August 22, 2008 at 12:20 am

 avatarMark65

You can't post on David's site unless you are moderated for bad language or anything that scare his poor little flock of followers who might get shocked by the nasty polluted atheists - Stalin would be proud!

Other Comments by Philip1978

68. Comment #234720 by David A Robertson on August 22, 2008 at 12:21 am

being an atheist has NOTHING to do with a person's actions


Philip - fascinating - being an atheist has no effect on your actions - perhaps you should tell Mr Grayling? - and the others who are exulting in this news and think that Millibrand being an atheist is a good reason to vote for him.

By the way - don;t want to get off topic but you did make an interesting claim 'the pope kills people because of his job'. Could you let us know the last person/persons that the Pope killed? I am sure the media would be interested (and Billy) - we could do him for murder...

Other Comments by David A Robertson

69. Comment #234721 by Steve Zara on August 22, 2008 at 12:23 am

 avatarStalin is a good example not of the dangers of atheism, but of how religion can be used to manipulate people.

Stalin first tried to purge religion because the churches were an alternative source of authority. Then, during world war 2, he revived the Russian Orthodox Church because it could be used as a method of encouraging patriotism.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

70. Comment #234722 by Diacanu on August 22, 2008 at 12:23 am

 avatarPhilp-

*Laughs through nose*
Don't expect much better from Davey but a snarky comment, and a total evasion of your points/questions.

Ah, well, least you got a good spleen venting in.
Feels good, don't it?

Other Comments by Diacanu

71. Comment #234723 by Steve Zara on August 22, 2008 at 12:25 am

 avatarComment #234720 by David A Robertson

I am sure you know precisely what Philip meant.

Perhaps instead of such snide comments, you could respond to the issue of how atheism (a lack of belief) can positively inspire someone.

Perhaps you could explain how you are inspired daily by your lack of belief in the Ganesha, the elephant-headed god.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

72. Comment #234724 by Diacanu on August 22, 2008 at 12:25 am

 avatarSteve Zara-


because it could be used as a method of encouraging patriotism.


Far as I'm concerned, patriotism IS a religion.

Other religions are the tinder that can get it lit faster, but it's yet another mindless, tribal, propagandized, heap of human made, prime cut, grade-A, bullshit.

Other Comments by Diacanu

73. Comment #234725 by Diacanu on August 22, 2008 at 12:28 am

 avatarDavid A. Robertson-


*Snide comments to Philip*


Well, did I call that, or what?

Other Comments by Diacanu

74. Comment #234726 by Philip1978 on August 22, 2008 at 12:31 am

 avatarDavid

I asked you to prove that without religion I am polluted and immoral, so go ahead and you prove it. Stop avoiding the answer and turning it around to me, you are the one who said you cannot be moral without God or Jesus, not me!

Other Comments by Philip1978

75. Comment #234727 by King of NH on August 22, 2008 at 12:32 am

 avatarI'll help you out, England. As an atheist, I'm putting in my claim to the throne. I take this claim from the fact that my father's line is Norman in name, and I've been called a bastard, so precedence entitles me. Once crowned, I will disolve the CofE, take their money, and build a wall surrounding the US Bible Belt and make them pass a test before they can expose their mind to the rest of the world. Everybody will be happy! C'mon... c'mon...

Other Comments by King of NH

76. Comment #234728 by Steve Zara on August 22, 2008 at 12:33 am

 avatarThis is probably a good time to repeat the point that atheism isn't even the kind of thing that can inspire. Atheism is opposite to theism, and even theism alone isn't the basis for anything either. It is conceivable for someone to believe in a God and just not care about it.

What motivates people is religion based on theism - an additional set of beliefs that the God actually cares for you personally, and is telling you what to do.

Atheism, being an absense, does not provide a scaffold on which to build the equivalent of religion.

You can't say "I don't believe in a God, and the absense of belief cares for me and tells me what to do".

To talk of someone being motivated by atheism does not make sense.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

77. Comment #234729 by Jamie V on August 22, 2008 at 12:33 am

I quote Frankie Boyle from "Mock The Week":

"People say David Milliband would be a breath of fresh air. No he wouldn't - he'd just be very slightly different. Vin Diesel would be a breath of fresh air. Sergeant Bash from Robot Wars would be a breath of fresh air."

If Milliband is an atheist, then good for him. I suppose a reason we're glad about that is because Blair's faith helped take us to war, and we can't ever have such shaky reasoning endangering us again.

I was wondering if US voters were faced with a choice between a Christian Democrat and an Atheist Republican (unlikely as that scenario is), would that have any real impact on their voting decision?

Other Comments by Jamie V

78. Comment #234730 by John Locke on August 22, 2008 at 12:33 am

 avatari have an inkling cameron would believe in chow mein (a splinter group of the spaghetti monster, going back to its far-eastern pasta-based roots, bit like kaballah) if one of his hangers on told him it was popular. its a standard insult aimed at politicians all the time, but i actually think he would.

for those saying this article is rose-tinted, i disagree. it is carefully worded with uses of phrases such as "less likely" and "might" etc. i think grayling is simply pointing out the possible benfits that an atheist might bring. more impartiality on faith-based decisions.

that said, as many have mentioned, he's still a politician. like monkeys. whether a monkey proffesses a faith or not i still wont be surprised to find it howling and throwing shite at the wall...

Other Comments by John Locke

79. Comment #234731 by Steve Zara on August 22, 2008 at 12:35 am

 avatarComment #234725 by Diacanu

You did indeed. I was attempting to back you up.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

80. Comment #234732 by Diacanu on August 22, 2008 at 12:36 am

 avatarSteve Zara-

D'oh, sorry. :P

Me am clumsy.

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81. Comment #234733 by Diacanu on August 22, 2008 at 12:40 am

 avatar...you're out there, David, I can smell you breathing.

Other Comments by Diacanu

82. Comment #234734 by Quetzalcoatl on August 22, 2008 at 12:43 am

 avatarDavid A Robertson-

Still waiting for an answer to the question


I wasn't going to bring this up, but I've changed my mind. Technically, I asked you questions on your forum in April that you have not answered. Would you mind answering those first, before complaining about others not answering your questions straight away?

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

83. Comment #234735 by AllanW on August 22, 2008 at 12:46 am

 avatarComment #234720 by David A Robertson on August 22, 2008 at 12:21 am
It's comments like this that reveal the most about you as a person. Deliberately skewed and manipulative; you are indeed in the right business being a whore for your God.

'being an atheist has no effect on your actions - perhaps you should tell Mr Grayling? - and the others who are exulting in this news and think that Millibrand being an atheist is a good reason to vote for him. '

Philip and the others have already shown any casual reader where you misrepresented here but I'll concentrate on the less obvious spin.

'Others who are exulting in this news'; what a gross calumny! The vast majority of posters here have not exulted; they have not rejoiced; they have not sung hosannahs and waived palm leaves in the streets. Most posters have clearly expressed reservations about politicians in general and have again clearly stated that whether Milliband is an atheist or not would have a marginal or nil effect on their voting intentions. Do you see how your deliberate misrepresentation might be seen by the casual but thorough observer to be duplicitous? I do, so I call you again a duplicitous lying tool.

Other Comments by AllanW

84. Comment #234736 by John Locke on August 22, 2008 at 12:51 am

 avatardisagree with you diacanu on the patriotism thing

it has proved a failed philosophy in practise (bit like communism) but is not in the same league as religion in terms of idiocy.

nationalism and patriotism, on a basic level, the same level as its first proponents, is simply a unifying pride in ones community and being, with the aim of bettering all. garibaldi said that he was "an italian, but above all a european". but like nietzsche, radical racists (social darwinists etc..) got hold of the idea and perverted it, culminating in a lot of the attrocities of the 20th century.

sorry to be pedantic, and feel free to shoot at me (metaphorically please, my bullet-proof vest is in the dry cleaners) but thought it was worht mentioning!

Other Comments by John Locke

85. Comment #234737 by Logicel on August 22, 2008 at 12:54 am

 avatarDavid Robertson writes: However if an atheist is a good atheist...
______

Millibrand's atheism is grounded in secularism, not oppression. Does that make him a good atheist? No, it makes him a secularist and not a fascist or a communist whose agenda is one of oppression and squashing rights. Was Stalin a bad atheist? No, he was an oppressor who would have used anything to further his power. There is no good or bad in atheism, atheism signifies a lack of belief in gods--however, you could believe in something else like fascism or communism which is oppressive.

Then what is the difference between a secularist politician who is a theist and an secularist politician who is atheist? Essentially nothing. As I commented earlier, the election of a known atheist gives credence that the population is ready for change, as the French gave the indication, when they elected a known supporter of free markets, that is, Sarko. In doing so they gave him the mandate to change their country in that direction.

It is a question of clarity, a theist may be a secularist, but an atheist will be a secularist, there is no guessing on that aspect, no waiting for concrete evidence that the theist is able to keep his/her theism (dogmatic, non-evidential beliefs) compartmentalized from his/her political functioning.

Obama, an American theist, running for President, has said that in the public sphere, only evidential underpinnings need to support public policy. Many atheists will vote for him, but will need to keep an close eye to see if he can practice what he is preaching (teehee).

Other Comments by Logicel

86. Comment #234738 by Sargeist on August 22, 2008 at 12:57 am

 avatarI don't agree that atheism cannot inspire people. Do many of "us" (atheists, that is) not express the hope that without religion more of the world's people will start trying to live for today, and to make this life a better one for as many people as possible? Do we not hope this because we surmise that the absence of belief in a glorious apres-vie paradise will help to focus minds on the here and now?

Other Comments by Sargeist

87. Comment #234739 by Steve Zara on August 22, 2008 at 1:00 am

 avatarComment #234738 by Sargeist

I would not call that being inspired by a lack of belief. It is being inspired by a belief about religions - that they stifle people.

It's like I said - I don't suspect that David Robertson wakes up each morning and thinks "wow! Another day free of belief in Ganesha - how inspiring!"

Am I being my usual hair-splitting pedantic self? Possibly.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

88. Comment #234740 by Oystein Elgaroy on August 22, 2008 at 1:03 am

 avatarLike everybody here I am getting tired of the "Stalin was an atheist" argument. Yes, he was an atheist, but he also believed in a marxist utopia waiting at the end of history and that any means were justified in order to help history along to that goal. This belief was not based on any evidence and I am tempted to classify it as religious.

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89. Comment #234741 by Sargeist on August 22, 2008 at 1:07 am

 avatarComment #234739 by Steve Zara

Hmmmmmmmm. I shall have to mull this over a bit. I am not convinced, though (still). It may be that I am just thinking of your meaning in a way in which it is not intended.

I do agree with your final comment about Ganesha, but I also think that there could be the following example: a believer finds some of the rules the religion lays down are a little odd and difficult to follow, but wants to store up points in the afterlife and so goes along with them. One day, Richard Dawkins' arguments finally (I hope) get through to them and they realise that their religion is bunkum. Suddenly, they realise that they had better start having a good time now rather than accepting the pain for a big prize after death.

Could this not be "inspiring"?

I may well have just argued your point for you, of course. Damn. I am not sure. Given that there are two opinions here on opposite sides, we surely ought to say that both of them are right....

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90. Comment #234742 by John Locke on August 22, 2008 at 1:08 am

 avatari agree with sargeist on this one.

can be very inspiring atheism, for the reason he/she mentioned. you can be inspired by the freedom of it.

i see what you mean steve but think its a surprisingly daft (for you, dear sir) way of looking at it. a similar logic to your argument would be saying nobody wakes up thinking "yay! still here...not got cancer and didnt die in the night from a blood clot" (or somehting of the sorts) as opposed to just waking up and being excited about the day. of course robertson wouldnt wake up thinking "yay i dont belive in ganesh" but could quite plausably wake up with a general feeling of freedom of decision (which is different, if only in terms of perception).

sorry in a very pedantic mood! no harm meant!

of course robertson doesnt wake up thinking that.

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91. Comment #234743 by Verylee on August 22, 2008 at 1:10 am

 avatarI wouldn't be at all surprised if D.R is not quote-mining for his sunday sermon (AKA political soapbox).....slippery slopes, nihilism, Stalin, Pol Pot etc spring to mind. Not forgetting your run of the mill empty and unfulfilled atheist voters.

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92. Comment #234744 by Brian English on August 22, 2008 at 1:18 am

 avatarJohn Locke:
"yay! still here...not got cancer and didnt die in the night from a blood clot"

Well, if they had cancer the day before and thought that they were a gonna they might. But that is the same with a theist who becomes atheist. It's the privation of a yolk that makes them joyous. But it doesn't inspire them to put on another yolk so that they may take it off again (I hope), instead being free, and nature abhoring a vacuum, they pick beliefs or ideals that fit in with their new approach and this is what inspires them, freedom and a new thing (New shiny things always inspire me, that's why I'm thinking of marrying my new stratocaster....)

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93. Comment #234745 by Steve Zara on August 22, 2008 at 1:21 am

 avatarComment #234742 by John Locke

I get what you are saying, but I think you are mixing up "feeling happy" with "being inspired and motivated".

sorry in a very pedantic mood! no harm meant!


No need to apologise. I love this kind of discussion.

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94. Comment #234746 by Ian on August 22, 2008 at 1:22 am

Such a despicable thing to do....shows what a dishonest, lying, thieving, ignorant, relgious troll I must be.


Well you can't expect people to think well of it, can you?

Someone with personal integrity will not fabricate a false identy at all and especially not for the trivial reason of falsifying support for thier point of view. What difference did you think it would make?

You didn't even make sure there was substantive pay-off before hazarding such a folly.

Bare in mind too what this makes you look like. You're the one who claims moral superiority through scripture. It's your side that claims people cannot be moral without a belief in God. Judging by you, you can't be moral with one.

No one forced you into this deception, David. You made these decisions freely and with a goal in sight. Please have enough grace not to whinge when you are caught out.

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95. Comment #234747 by Quetzalcoatl on August 22, 2008 at 1:25 am

 avatar
If an atheist leader is a bad atheist


What, bad at not believing in gods? Does that mean he'd believe in gods? Then he's not an atheist.

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96. Comment #234750 by Brian English on August 22, 2008 at 1:27 am

 avatarQuetz careful with that logic there, you might hurt someone('s feelings)!

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97. Comment #234751 by John Locke on August 22, 2008 at 1:28 am

 avatarsteve

i also get what you mean, and wasnt the best illustration of my point, but since you got what i meant, its all good!! :D

i think we're getting in a confusion of causational outcomes etc!

but since we agree on the whole it needs no further discusion, particularly if i start writing more posts twisting about like this...:S :D

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98. Comment #234752 by Ichneumonid on August 22, 2008 at 1:29 am

 avatar
#68 David Robertson : Could you let us know the last person/persons that the Pope killed? I am sure the media would be interested (and Billy) - we could do him for murder...


David, you must be willfully ignorant not to get the point here.

How about the countless millions of nameless people in the third world (Africa in particular) indirectly killed by the position of the Catholic church on condom use as an AIDS prevention method, not to mention the millions of kids dying of starvation (or simply condemned to a lifetime of poverty) due to the Catholic church's teachings more generally on contraception. The Pope is the head of that organisation and so ultimately IS responsible for their deaths.

It made me sick to the guts to hear our PM, Kevin Rudd (an admitted godbotherer, but otherwise seemingly intelligent bloke) welcome the Pope to Australia as a "man of peace".

Pigs arse!

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99. Comment #234753 by Steve Zara on August 22, 2008 at 1:29 am

 avatarComment #234747 by Quetzalcoatl

Nice one.

I guess it might be possible to be a bad atheist. For a start there are all those thousands of different varieties of Christianity we have to work hard not to believe in.

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100. Comment #234754 by Quetzalcoatl on August 22, 2008 at 1:35 am

 avatarBrian-

Quetz careful with that logic there, you might hurt someone('s feelings)!


I'm feeling irritable at the moment- the tea hasn't started working yet. I can't guarantee that I won't bludgeon someone over the head with logic.

Steve-

I guess it might be possible to be a bad atheist. For a start there are all those thousands of different varieties of Christianity we have to work hard not to believe in.


Not to mention all the various sects of the other religions. Not believing in Poseidon is sometimes a struggle for me.

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