Wednesday, September 17, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

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Turkey bans biologist Richard Dawkins' website

by Monsters and Critics

Reposted from:
http://www.monstersandcritics.com/science/news/article_1431422.php/Turkey_bans_biologist_Richard_Dawkins_website

Ankara - Turkish internet users have been blocked via a court order from accessing the site of prominent British biologist Richard Dawkins after complaints from lawyers for Islamic creationist author Adnan Oktar, the website of Turkish television station NTV reported on Wednesday.

A court in Istanbul ordered that Turk Telekom block access to the site and since the weekend Turkish internet users seeking the site have been redirected to a page that says in Turkish 'access to this site has been suspended in accordance with a court decision'.

NTV reported that Oktar complained he and his creationist book 'Atlas of Creation' had been defamed by comments made by Dawkins on the site.

'I am at a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the breathtaking inanity of the content,' Dawkins, a distinguished advocate of the theory of evolution, wrote on his website in July referring to the Atlas of Creation.

The book has caused controversy not just through its advocation of creationism but also through how thousands of copies of book were distributed to schools in a number of European countries.

Oktar has used the Turkish courts on a number of occasions, the latest being earlier this year when he attempted to have Dawkins' book The God Delusion banned in Turkey on the basis that it was insulting religion but a Turkish court threw the case out.

In August 2007, Oktar, who writes under the pen name Harun Yahya, convinced a Turkish court to block access to millions of web blogs using the Wordpress.com hosting service after finding that a number of blogs carried libellous comments.

In May, Oktar was found guilty of creating an illegal organization for personal gain and sentenced to three years imprisonment. He is appealing the decision.

UPDATE: 9/18/08 - Covered in The Guardian
Turkish court bans Richard Dawkins website

A Turkish court has banned internet users from viewing the official Richard Dawkins website after a Muslim creationist claimed its contents were defamatory and blasphemous.

Adnan Oktar, who writes under the pen name of Harun Yahya, complained that Dawkins, a fierce critic of creationism and intelligent design, had insulted him in comments made on forums and blogs.

According to Oktar's office, Istanbul's second criminal court of peace banned the site earlier this month on the grounds that it "violated" Oktar's personality.

His press assistant, Seda Aral, said: "We are not against freedom of speech or expression but you cannot insult people.

"We found the comments hurtful. It was not a scientific discussion. There was a line and the limit has been passed.

"We have used all the legal means to stop this site. We asked them to remove the comments but they did not."

Oktar, a household name in Turkey, has used hundreds of books, pamphlets and DVDS to contest Darwin's theory of evolution.

In 2006 his publishers sent out 10,000 copies of the Atlas of Creation, a lavish 800-page rejection of evolution.

Dawkins, one of the recipients, described the book as "preposterous". On his website the British biologist and popular science writer said he was at "a loss to reconcile the expensive and glossy production values of this book with the 'breathtaking inanity' of the content."

It is the third time Oktar and his associates have succeeded in blocking sites in Turkey.

In August 2007 Oktar persuaded a court to block access to WordPress.com. His lawyers argued that blogs on WordPress.com contained libelous material that the company was unwilling to remove.

Last April, he made a libel complaint about Google Groups, which was subsequently blocked.

He failed to ban Dawkins' book the God Delusion in Turkey after a court rejected his claims that it insulted religion.

UPDATE: 9/19/08 - Covered in The Guardian
Missing link: creationist campaigner has Richard Dawkins' official website banned in Turkey

UPDATE: 9/19/08 - Covered in The New Humanist
Richard Dawkins's website banned in Turkey — courtesy of Harun Yahya

Posted: Wednesday, September 17, 2008 | Permalink

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201. Comment #250139 by zeocrash on September 19, 2008 at 2:00 am

Any chance of getting a mirror of this website up for the turkish populace??

Other Comments by zeocrash

202. Comment #250141 by Nautilus20 on September 19, 2008 at 2:00 am

If i use OpenDNS, Turkish Telekom Service Provider can't do anything about it.I can visit wherever i want and they can't ban.There's no such thing like removing site ip.I'm not even related with Turkish Telecom Service Provider when i use OpenDNS.I hope you got it...

Other Comments by Nautilus20

203. Comment #250151 by e1011001 on September 19, 2008 at 2:14 am

they can ban n20 they can. when youtube banned i can visit by open dns. but when they ban youtube from ip it didnt work anymore. an dns server hold ip and site name. when name removed yo can get site by ip. but when ip removed yo can get site only by anonym proxy servers.

Other Comments by e1011001

204. Comment #250155 by midwinterspring on September 19, 2008 at 2:22 am

Well, I'm writing from Turkey and the site doesn't seem to be blocked at the moment. Even if they get around to blocking it, anyone will be able to access it through a proxy server. Youtube has been banned for months because Greeks keep posting insulting videos about Ataturk, the secularist tyrant who founded Turkey. But that hasn't stopped anyone. The law that allows such bans is a national joke.

Other Comments by midwinterspring

205. Comment #250175 by Aynur K. on September 19, 2008 at 3:05 am

I am Turkish, live in Istanbul and have no trouble accessing this site. That is probably because I use OpenDNS. However, it doesn't change the fact that this ban exists. This ban is the result of a law concerning internet publications. I would like to call this law simply censorship on Internet. I believe this law is one of the deeds of our irresponsible government with mean intentions. Having said that and needlessly adding that Turkish Internet users are deeply concerned, noone from EU, which,I understand, Turkey does not deserve to join according to some previous comments, criticised or even reacted to this law of censorship. Of course this doesn't lessen the responsibility of Turkish citizens on this situation. All I can say is that Turkish people are reacting and doing what they can in an atmosphere of corrupt politics, a press half of which unconditionally sides with the government which is seriously abusing power. And it wouldn't hurt to feel some EU support behind them.

Other Comments by Aynur K.

206. Comment #250176 by Jack Rawlinson on September 19, 2008 at 3:05 am

"...but you cannot insult people."

But, actually, yes you can. In free countries, that is.

Repressive primitives.

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

207. Comment #250190 by TIKI AL on September 19, 2008 at 3:37 am

I agree that site banning is a step in the wrong direction, but Turkey has made great progress in advanced flotation methods for witch detection.

No one expects the inquisition.

Other Comments by TIKI AL

208. Comment #250195 by RoniRoni69 on September 19, 2008 at 3:51 am

Turkey banned you tube and many other info sharing sites. what do you expect a country like Turkey to be when she is ruled by military &religious elites?

some two years back I read The God Delusion in Istanbul with hardcover copy on hand publicly. Thank to English-illeterate Turkish people that I have not been harassed.

Other Comments by RoniRoni69

209. Comment #250211 by peter.ogroup on September 19, 2008 at 4:38 am

I was in Turkey last summer and it seemed to me that Turkey is not ready to join the EU at all. Certain minorities (both ethnic and religious) are being oppressed and waged war upon, whilst human rights are also still violated when it comes to women and homosexuals. Many of the Turkish people do not even want to join the EU. They make more profit on fake brand-clothing, than they ever would when Turkey has to bow to EU-laws. Tourism is very important to Turkey, and many people in this industry dread the idea that Turkey one day may become a member of the EU, because it will be the end of their days selling this illegal merchandise (fake Rolex, sportswear etc.) This is what I gathered from conversations with the Turkish people. Of course I may be all wrong, but Turkey seems to be losing the secular spirit Atatürk installed years ago.

Other Comments by peter.ogroup

210. Comment #250212 by friskydiscus on September 19, 2008 at 4:43 am

er you guys.
This website doesnt appear to be blocked in Turkey, has it been overturned? im in turkey as we speak and not having any trouble accessing his site.

pretty much the only sites blocked here on a permanent basis are Youtube and porn (boo) but its not hard to get around the censors and most Turks i've met seem to know how to access blocked sites. its more a statement by the courts than anything else. annoying and inconvenient at times, but at the end of the day its hardly book burning...

And for whoever said this is a repressive Islamic regime, sheesh! Seriously way off the mark there. The repression starts in this country when you threaten the secular authorities, not the religious. Not that they wouldnt do the same but at present its the secular courts and army who are behaving with hostility and the religious-favouring (but not openly Islamic) ruling party which is playing the liberal line. Things are changing though. Im positive and believe that gradually the country as a whole will continue to develop economically and politics will promote a more balanced and liberal society. However, my Turkish friends think otherwise. They think the country is going to pot with a new religious elite taking ever more control over economy and politics and no chance of a new and balanced constitution being drafted.

anyway, point is, the site is no longer banned and turkish censorship of the internet is both fairly trivial and not very effective.

Other Comments by friskydiscus

211. Comment #250225 by Pertwee's Bouffant on September 19, 2008 at 5:32 am

Well I'm banned from using the forum at work. They expect me to work instead. Sheesh. I can post comments like this though (hurray!).

And sometimes my partner bans me from using the site at home if he or housework need attention. "That bloody Dawkins," he's been known to mutter. "Get up them ladders and get them gutters cleaned out."

So I'd probably be able to access it better if I moved to Turkey. Just goes to show. Anyway.

Other Comments by Pertwee's Bouffant

212. Comment #250227 by odag on September 19, 2008 at 5:41 am

Hello, I'm an atheist from Turkey. I agree that the web site banning is not effective (if you look at here "http://www.alexa.com/site/ds/top_sites?cc=TR&ts_mode=country&lang=none" you can see youtube is the 11th most popular site in Turkey despite being censored for months.) but I don't think it is trivial. It clearly shows that the goverment doesn't want people to see or read things that don't agree with their own ideology. And I think that Adnan Oktar should not be blamed for this ban, he is just a mad man with a lot of money and good lawyers. The real problem is the laws about internet which was prepared by people who had no idea about it. (More info in Turkish here; http://www.tbmm.gov.tr/kanunlar/k5651.html) Basicly, if you have enough money and lawyers, you can block any website with a little trolling, if they write negative comments about you, then the site can be banned easily.

@ronironi69
I'm sorry that English is not the native language of Turkish people (!). But the turkish translation of The God Delusion is still a bestseller in here a year after its publication.

Other Comments by odag

213. Comment #250233 by celerity on September 19, 2008 at 5:50 am

Richard, ask your system admin to create a new DNS (ip number) for the turkish visitors. Such creating a mirror of the site on another domain.

Other Comments by celerity

214. Comment #250263 by mulder on September 19, 2008 at 7:28 am

Firstly I am overwhelmed by the fact the ban made such an effect in the forum.I wouldn't expect such reaction.
Secondly,Having read the comments coming from the users from all over the world, I realized that the folk outside the Turkey,especially yanks,don't seem to have the slightest idea about today's Turkey,but they are ready to make off-the-cuff comments(I made friends from the US, and one of the first things they asked me If we were using camels for transport instead of cars.And I was like are you joking or something and said her that today's Turkey is much more developed than many of the EU member countries).I mean in spite of the efforts that the government have made to advertise Turkey and its culture, the foreigners' impression of Turkey seem to be guite a wrong one,to say the truth.And I regretfully realized it once more here,in this forum.
I am also surprised to see that actually there are many users from Turkey in the site.Moreover the number is increasing.keep up lads!

Any of u can contact me via pm.

Other Comments by mulder

215. Comment #250269 by greekatheist on September 19, 2008 at 7:55 am

Wow, so many atheists from Turkey!
Aferin c,ocuklar!!!
Greetings from Athens, Greece :-)))

Other Comments by greekatheist

216. Comment #250274 by shad0w on September 19, 2008 at 8:15 am

Yet they want Full E.U membership ? REALLY ? How rediculous. Maybe come back in a few decades.

We should all be thankful that the secular army has real influence and power in turkey otherwise from what it looks like it may turn into just another Pakistan the way they're going.

Other Comments by shad0w

217. Comment #250275 by lllolll on September 19, 2008 at 8:16 am

Turkey is a secular country for over 80 years and has established a true democratic administration unlike many EU countries. Turkey had kicked out his royal VIP's about 100 years ago. Women have right to vote decades before many EU countries accepted equal representation of all citizens.

Oktar's book is nothing but a freely distributed flippant political booklet. So no one takes this mad guy serious, except courts.

"Insulting" is a very sensitive issue in Turkish judicial system. But blocking a user generated platform? No, that's no good. The courts have to understand the difference between the old-press and the new one. I hope with the new internet law things will get better. But before, we have to get rid off Tayyip Erdogan the current prime minister who has been still defending islamic laws over civil one.

Turkey'e EU integration is about economics and free cycling. Turkey is purely democratic country where it respects the rights of its citizens.

You can build a church in Turkey. But can't build a mosque in Cologne! As an atheist from istanbul, I don't care about religion.But come on..there is still a country named Vatican and it's not a Turkish one.

Other Comments by lllolll

218. Comment #250276 by friskydiscus on September 19, 2008 at 8:19 am

aaaaaaaaaa

and before I could string together another sentence they've gone and barred this site again! you cant imagine how cross that's made me!

@odag
clearly you are in the right here, it is not a trivial thing. I think what I meant is the courts' response is trivial, or perhaps petty is the right way. You got it spot on about the way these laws are used.

@Sarmatae
What????? what is the relevance to this discussion?

anyway, im very cross about being banned again but, well, living example that its not very effective

Other Comments by friskydiscus

219. Comment #250283 by Roger Stanyard on September 19, 2008 at 8:51 am

"Here is what CIA Director Porter Goss said bluntly before the Senate Intelligence Committee in February 2004, "It may be only a matter of time before Al Qaeda or other groups attempt to use chemical, biological, radiological, or nuclear weapons. We must focus on that." And we know that he knows; has known for the longest time!"

This, of course, is the same CIA that brought us evidence of weapons of mass destruction in Iraq.

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

220. Comment #250284 by liberalartist on September 19, 2008 at 8:57 am

banning something is the best way to get everyone to read it, did this guy not read Harry Potter and the Order of the Phoenix? obviously not.

Turkey needs to decide if its going to stay in the middle east dark ages or join the western enlightenment. Can a muslim country liberate itself and allow true freedom? So far, it looks like the answer is no.

Other Comments by liberalartist

221. Comment #250287 by THWOTH on September 19, 2008 at 9:20 am

His press assistant, Seda Aral, said: "We are not against freedom of speech or expression but you cannot insult people."

This fiasco is an insult to people's intelligence.

Are the Turkish people intellectually retarded to a point that they are unable to draw their own conclusions or have their own thoughts about evolution? Of course they are not.

This is an example of controlling religius authoritarianism at it's most obvious. I think it is fair to say that Professor Dawkins challenges all creationists equally by 'explaining' the mechanisms by which evolution works.

For this individual to take such challenges to faith in the validity of creationism so personally implies a breath-taking capacity for narcissistic solipsism.

Other Comments by THWOTH

222. Comment #250289 by destriker on September 19, 2008 at 9:31 am

to Sarmatae:
You know a hell about Turkey man, I didn't know that much as a Turkish citizen. Can you give me some information about other countries' gains from drug dealing or weapon smuggling? I didn't even bother to care your other incapable arguments, but can you please tell me what are the source of the statistics compiled in 1998?
-------------------------------------------------

come on, have some perspective here. there is very little difference between a religious extremist and a commenter on richarddawkins.net site who generalizes and judges people according to their nationality.

believe me, you nowadays cannot see 1 million people gathering in a city just for protesting the current government anywhere in the world. we are struggling for pure democracy and freedom, but you simply don't help us. don't be prejudicial.

Other Comments by destriker

223. Comment #250294 by odag on September 19, 2008 at 9:47 am

@friskydiscus
I know you said that in a good way :)

there is very little difference between a religious extremist and a commenter on richarddawkins.net site who generalizes and judges people according to their nationality.

This irritates me too, but I can't really blame them. They see and hear the worst of us and unless they take time to research more, they stick to the stereotypes.

Other Comments by odag

224. Comment #250298 by friskydiscus on September 19, 2008 at 10:03 am

too many people fail to grasp the point that the Turkish courts are not being religiously over-zealous. They are not religious
They are secular
As is the rest of the state apparatus
Sometimes secular to the point of coup d'etat
however, like all things, they can be manipulated as they are in this case.
this is a secular law in a secular country being manipulated by an individual (or group, if you prefer) with rather extreme religious views.
It is not religious authoritarianism
cant you people see simple corruption when it slaps you in the face??
and as destriker says, if Turks love anything they love to protest and they do it very passionately.
@liberalartist... sigh... its so hard for anyone to imagine that a country like Turkey might not actually be struggling between east and west. Turkey doesnt have an identity problem. It knows exactly where it is. In Turkey. All this talk of middle east dark ages and western enlightenment does nothing but stifle development

Other Comments by friskydiscus

225. Comment #250299 by passutoba on September 19, 2008 at 10:05 am

I live in Qatar, a pretty conservative Islamic state ( they practice a less militant version of wahhabism-although hypocrisy is never far away...) and i have access to this site and any others like it....Turkey is supposed to be a democratic secular state? Thats the polar opposite of here. Can people see this site in Saudi Arabia?

Other Comments by passutoba

226. Comment #250300 by TurkishAtheist on September 19, 2008 at 10:06 am

I've been visiting Richard's website since it was created. I have a huge respect for Mr. Dawkins he really made a big difference for atheists coming out of holes to speak openly, including in Turkey. we need to do more. Time for bending over for religious lunatics is over

Other Comments by TurkishAtheist

227. Comment #250308 by Sargeist on September 19, 2008 at 11:04 am

What, exactly, is freedom of speech and expression if not the freedom to insult and offend?

Other Comments by Sargeist

228. Comment #250309 by Quetzalcoatl on September 19, 2008 at 11:06 am

And of course the catch here is that a situation suddenly arises where even questioning a person's beliefs is seen as an insult.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

229. Comment #250315 by Hellene on September 19, 2008 at 11:34 am

"...but you cannot insult people."

Oh but I can and will...

Adnan Oktars moustache looks like old mold I once saw in a toilet.

To the free thinking Turks who come here. I salute you and your love of freedom.

Other Comments by Hellene

230. Comment #250323 by Ultraviolet G on September 19, 2008 at 12:22 pm

Well, so far the "ban" has caused a 1000% increase in posts from Turkey!

Also good to see Greek and Turkish freethinkers supporting each other. I'm hoping my country of birth and Korea can do the same thing in the future, there's only one world and petty tribalism isn't going to save us.

Still a few posts which seem a bit close to "Turkey sucks!"...Turkey has some very very serious corruption problems, yes. But watch out for those generalizations.

Other Comments by Ultraviolet G

231. Comment #250326 by phaedrus on September 19, 2008 at 12:29 pm

I have no problems logging to the website from Turkey. Because i always use free DNS servers. And also Adnan Oktar, in my opinion is just a pawn. The threat is coming from the Gulen Mouvement. And yes there has been a conference in London for his "beautiful" ideas. By te way not all of the Turks want to join the stupid EU.

Other Comments by phaedrus

232. Comment #250331 by ChAoS_CoSmiC on September 19, 2008 at 12:42 pm

I'm in Turkey and I'm Turk. What? Turkey bans Richard Dawkin's website? Ha ha ha I don't know. I can access all the website. Adnan Oktar(Harun Yahya) deceitful,charlatan,unprosressive,anti science, ıslamic inquisition priest,sufi path.. Turk telekom is idiot. But We have access the all internet website. Crack youtube block,crack many blocked website. Turkısh people are illegal internet user. Because its communication monopoly Turk Telekom.

Other Comments by ChAoS_CoSmiC

233. Comment #250333 by phaedrus on September 19, 2008 at 12:51 pm

Turkey needs to decide if its going to stay in the middle east dark ages or join the western enlightenment. Can a muslim country liberate itself and allow true freedom? So far, it looks like the answer is no.

what does this mean? Is it something like "christian baby". "western enlightenment"??
No we prefer southern enlightenment.
And for your knowledge when you were fighting with eachother we were quite enlightened. Have you ever heard of "cradle of civilization". Probably not.

With that much of prejudice you shouldn't be looking in a mirror, bcuz if one day you see a spot on your nose and get disgusted of yourself.

Other Comments by phaedrus

234. Comment #250334 by larhule on September 19, 2008 at 1:09 pm

"According to Oktar's office, Istanbul's second criminal court of peace banned the site earlier this month on the grounds that it "violated" Oktar's personality.

In August 2007 Oktar persuaded a court to block access to WordPress.com. His lawyers argued that blogs on WordPress.com contained libelous material that the company was unwilling to remove.

Last April, he made a libel complaint about Google Groups, which was subsequently blocked."

If I were a Turkish citizen I would want this Oktar fellow dead.

Other Comments by larhule

235. Comment #250355 by oekaki on September 19, 2008 at 2:03 pm

As other people have already pointed out, this is NOT a case of religious extremism, this is simply a case of state authoritarianism being manipulated by a wealthy lunatic. The root of the problem is a controversial internet law that was put into effect last year (known in Turkey by its number, 5651), which allows courts to ban websites if somebody simply complains that the content "violates his/her rights". (odag already provided a link to the full (Turkish) text of the law.) Of course, if you have an army of lawyers working for you and tons of money to "lubricate" legal proceedings, you are more likely to have things your way.

Why did the Turkish people allow such a repressive law to be passed through their parliament? Well, a number of organizations and individuals did protest vehemently when the law was being discussed, and there are ongoing campaigns against it (see http://kampanya.org.tr/sansur/ for example), but unfortunately a big portion of the Turkish public remains under-educated and poor, and the internet policy of the government does not rank high on their priority list, so there was never enough momentum to change anything. Plus, because of all the videos on YouTube insulting Kemal Ataturk, a highly revered figure in Turkey, many people did agree that *some* government regulation of online content was needed. Banning Prof. Dawkins's site was certainly not what they had in mind, though.

Anyway, thanks to this latest ban, law 5651 is being discussed again, so eventually some good may come out of this circus, if the government is shamed into finally changing the law.

And larhule,

If I were a Turkish citizen I would want this Oktar fellow dead.

"Dead" is pretty mild compared to all the things I've wished upon this guy over the last few years.

Other Comments by oekaki

236. Comment #250369 by memberxxx on September 19, 2008 at 2:41 pm

I can access the website from Turkey now? Without any chances on my DNS. I don't know who Richard Dawkins is but I am against banning.

Other Comments by memberxxx

237. Comment #250383 by JMCARVAS on September 19, 2008 at 3:25 pm

It's Funny. I've received one of this books in my lab in Switzerland. I was really impressed by the edition quality and size of the book, and how could somebody just give it away for free. Inside there was a collection of BS and nonsense.

Other Comments by JMCARVAS

238. Comment #250389 by Wampeter on September 19, 2008 at 3:33 pm

So much for Turkey joining in the EU. I guess the popular movemnt of islamists in that country really has gotten a hold of their nation. We'd better be watchful in the U.S for there are similar people here.

Other Comments by Wampeter

239. Comment #250393 by fevzi_from_turkey on September 19, 2008 at 3:38 pm

it's shamefully true that a scientist honestly lining up with an excluded idea is banned in my country, turkey. actually "so-called banned" statement is more appropriate as you know, anyone who wants to reach to this website, can do it. i, myself recently bought the book the god delusion and i think it really both enlights the people open-minded and enrages the people known by their close relation to our religious government. because of that government, my country is in a period of stress both pollitically and socially. the open minded, intellectual part of the society is under a great pressure coming from the conservative part of the society. however, it is all caused by the great confusion that the government created. thus, optimistics like me hope that this chaos will be exterminated by "that" part of the society themselves as soon as they realize the thick wall built right in front of their eyes, so please do not misjudge the common will of my country, think twice after reading this explanation. we will become one of the "free" countries soon enough, i believe, i want to.

Other Comments by fevzi_from_turkey

240. Comment #250416 by TurkishAtheist on September 19, 2008 at 4:09 pm

The major issue regarding religion vs freethinking is that in Turkey most of people do not debate or discuss religions' weird verses, it gets unprecedented strong reaction by people if you criticize islam like beheadings, multiple wives, instructions how to beat your wife, jews and christians are being the enemies pigs and apes, infidels must be killed etc.. people immediately want to silence you by saying I respect your views but you should respect mine and say nothing about it.
Well if I can't criticize this lunacy how can I put its absurdities on the table. most of people have no idea what's written in their so called holly book, they never read the quran. They move on their lives with their cellphones, cars, boyfriends/girlfriends, soccer games, new designers clothing line etc..
most of Turks are fake muslims, they pretend so they will look good to their neighbors.

Other Comments by TurkishAtheist

241. Comment #250424 by fevzi_from_turkey on September 19, 2008 at 4:26 pm

there are dozens of stops on "that" drug path. one of them may be turkey that's true but weather turkey is receiving concealing and transporting these materials as much as other "stops" or not, it doesn't change the fact that these goods are heading for a final destination: the U.S. here turkey seems like the accomplice but the criminal is the U.S. who pulls the trigger last. same goes for the others like weaponary etc. so, let's get a little perspective here please?

Other Comments by fevzi_from_turkey

242. Comment #250436 by Erklig on September 19, 2008 at 5:03 pm

I am a Turkish man. I'm ashamed of my government that commits these cencorships.
I am muslim. Not because i was born that way, but because i read different books of different religions, ideologies and philosophies. I chose to be a muslim.
I believe in theory of evolution. And i know it's supported by Qor'an, the holy book of Islam. I can discuss this matter with anyone who has the wisdom and respect for an argument of merit. However, belief is not matter of proof, but emotions and self-logic. You believe or not. It's nothing to judge, critisize, nor to celebrate.

It must be different for you to see somebody believing both God and evolution. For who He created all could be not hard to create a system of evolution as well ;) But as i mentioned, that's what i believe after all.

For those who says that Turkey does not deserve EU:
It's not a matter of deserving, but humiliation. Most of our citizens who elected this government, EU is a Union that we must join. But in fact EU is only a trap for Turkey. We need nothing of them and they are only disguised enemies of us. I am not saying "European People", but "European Union". People should be no enemies of each other. But politicians in EU are our enemies.

For those who say that Turkey should accept the Holocaust truth:
USA is responsible of 300millions of Native Americans death.
In the end of WW2, USA bombed Japan twice with Nuclear power and there was no need for that except for scaring Soviet Union.
USA is also responsible of countless massacres and slaughters in Panama, Afganistan, Iraq and so on...

France is responsible of massacring 1.5 million of Northern Africans.

England is worst of all maybe. Their history is written on holocausts and massacres committed in their colonies.

Germany? Don't make me laugh.

And Russia? :)

Japan? :D

Or should we talk about countries such as Sweden and Switzerland that seem very innocent, but supported Nazi Germany in the past and backstabbed their allies?

There is no country that's past is innocent, yet no man who's grandfathers were all saints. But Turkey slaughtered no Armenians. In WW1 when Russia invaded us, our Armenian citizens backstabbed their own neighbors by joining Russian side and slaughtering every neighbor they've known all their lives as friends. When we beated Russian and Armenians back, those Armenian citizens of Ottoman Empire and our army left alone here. If i were the general who witnessed that slaughter of Turkish citizens of Ottoman Empire, i'd kill that Armenian citizens of Ottoman Empire all. But however, the general or/and the ruler of that era was much more merciful than me and they just forced the Armenian citizens of Ottoman Emprie to immigrate to other country. And many of them died on their way. I'll never accept to weep and polgize for that. We did the same for traitor Greek citizens of Ottoman Empire. But their way to Greece was shorter that they succeeded to reach Greece before they die.

Greece chose to kill most of Turks and Macedonians in its territory and forced most of them to immigrate. Armenians did the same. You can find videos of how Armenians slaughtered 7-8 years old Turkish kids in the beginning of '90s.

There is no non-Turkish on this earth who can judge Turks for what they are and what they did. First check your own history and then talk here.

I know what kind of stupid Turks there are who voted for this government and who has no honor left in their hearts.
I know what kind of narrow sighted Turks (and foreigners as well) there are who don't know what they believe and why they believe (no matter a religion or a philosophy or a theory).
I know there are people who can't be objective and can't try to make empathy.
But i know as well that few like me can understand what i am trying to say.

People like me are not loved by most of their publics and most of the rest of the world. Because we speak the truth.

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243. Comment #250477 by f451 on September 19, 2008 at 6:33 pm

New release Ancestor's Tale sells out within a day!

Oxford University professor and advocate of evolution theory, the author of "The God Delusion" which drew great attention -even illegal copies had been distributed all over- and the publisher has been sued and acquitted in Turkey Prof. Richard Dawkins' last book released and sold out in a day in Turkey, the news says.

The new book which has been written before "The God Delusion", published 2 thousand copies in Turkish. The publisher of the book, Huseyin Sonmez, told that he was suprised because of all distribution orders were finished in a day and this has happened for the first time in 26 years of the publishing company. According to the book, The Ancestor's Tale tells a 4-billion-years-old journey. Professor Dawkins' website has been closed down due to the comments that violate Adnan Oktar's personal rights by the decision of the court in Istanbul.

Source: http://arsiv.sabah.com.tr/2008/09/19//haber,98BF8C9C35DE4B0CA0C042D767E13E5F.html

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244. Comment #250478 by Hellene on September 19, 2008 at 6:34 pm

254. Comment #250436 by Erklig

Very interesting revisionist history.

I'll start with one fact.

There where never 300 million Native Americans alive in North America. I believe that number to be incorrect

But Americans for the most part own up to the fact that they did kill many of the Indians.

And many question the wisdom of the nuclear bombs used in Japan.

And many of us question the war in Iraq.

And though we did put Japanese and Germans in camps during WWII we did not kill them. Or put them in the army and work them to death in work camps, like the turkish did . Or march them into the desert to die. Up to one million Greeks and up to six million Armenians. It's documented by reporters and foreign diplomats that were in Turkey during that time.

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245. Comment #250497 by goTurk on September 19, 2008 at 7:03 pm

What is equally unfortunate as banning of Dawkins website by Turkish courts is that some of the adamant readers of Mr Dawkins are so ignorantly hateful and remorseful against Turks that, some wrong legal action taken against this website causes uproar and hateful remarks against a country that has one of the most legitimate and staunch secular systems in human history.

Frankly, I am ashamed for some of the racist commentators posting here anti-Turkish sentiments.

Atheism does not mean hating of others. Some long time readers are so hateful that I think they are pretending to be atheists not because they do not believe in god but they look for a reason to hate.

What happened in Turkey is not a political decision but someone taking advantage of a legal loop hole against a website for personnel gain. There is a legal system that is ever changing in Turkey, and this decision will be dismissed by higher courts of appeals soon.

So, STOP HATING Turkey and its people and look at it from analytical point of view.

Comments like those posted by user named "MrPickwick" reminds me of American-neoCon-Christian-fundamentalist-Islam-haters' (ANCFIH) comments appearing in christian Fundamentalist media.

Analyze the situation, do not take advantage of it and use to to pour out you hate.

Stop anti-Turkish sentiments, stop hate, stop now!. Atheism does not mean hating.

Besides Adnan Oktar is a freak, he is not Muslim or anything else.

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246. Comment #250502 by dogacyavuz on September 19, 2008 at 7:15 pm

Alright, I'm in just to add two things missing in this discussion. Sorry about my english if anything's wrong:

1. Armenian Genocide is an issue that needs to be enlightened by an academic research. As far as I know our government, which I dislike at the moment really, is offering partnertship on that matter with the Armenian historians. But there is yet to come a response for that. So there is actually nothing to accept or deny, but unproven claims.

2. The real reason this website and many others got banned in our country is the inefficient laws about the internet. There is a "bug" in the law, that even when the court goes on the website can be banned "just in case". And many use this bug for their own purposes. Adnan Oktar is one of them, though he does have some followers around that make his job easier.

And I also don't think Turkey joining the EU would be good for any part of the deal at the moment, and I believe neither part wants to do that for now. EU is probably trying to take us "up to their standarts" along with some minor changes that could be "useful" if things go bad. But the government here, being probably the worst government ever in this country, just uses that optimistic point of view to gain votes and support from the people, whom they never care but somehow make it seem so.

In short; Adnan Oktar is an idiot, the government is selfish and the people (most of them) don't know anything. Just, don't start swearing at all of us when you hear this kind of idiocies. People don't know because no one thaught them. Anything.

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247. Comment #250508 by goTurk on September 19, 2008 at 7:32 pm

now... where did the Armenians came into the picture here?

Anytime some Westerner wants to show his/her hatred against Turks the Armenian genocide is thrown into the court. We might be talking about the bad weather in Istanbul,yet, some ignorant Westerner hate monger will post about Armenian genocide asking remorse from Turkish people.

I think the Europe is making the same hate mistake it did last century against Jews, but now, it is against Turks.

The "Angry European" (a.k.a. AE) (that is you my friend) always finds a reason to hate Turks, no matter what, (just as he did to Jews in 1930s).

"Self Righteousness" is such a comforting disease for the Angry European (AE), like opium, making him forget own errors and short comings.

Let me ask this, regardless of your beliefs...Are there any humanist out there. or... all of you are pretends here?

Read some of Mevlana Jelaledin-i Rumi's work guys.

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248. Comment #250510 by Hellene on September 19, 2008 at 7:35 pm

259. Comment #250502 by dogacyavuz

"Armenian Genocide is an issue that needs to be enlightened by an academic research."

"So there is actually nothing to accept or deny, but unproven claims."

I disagree. My relatives who lived through it disagree. The ones that died during that time are not alive to disagree.

I have no desire for retaliation. But is it too much to ask that their deaths are not swept under the rug?

I make no judgement on Turkeys' bid to the EU. I do not judge Turkeys' people by Adnan Oktars' "behavior". He is a leader of an Islamic cult. He deserves ridicule. That much everyone seems to agree on. I have seen many different opinions as to what is "wrong" in Turkey. This is good. People are thinking.

I wish all of you well.

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249. Comment #250520 by Erklig on September 19, 2008 at 8:10 pm

257. Comment #250478 by Hellene

Americans put Germans and Japans in camps, yes. But that Germans and Japans did not revolt and fight against their own neighbors within US. Right? As far as i know, USA was not invaded :) Maybe they would fight and kill other American citizens if Germany or/and Japan invaded USA. And i am quiet sure US Government would kill them back no matter they lose or win. I'm sorry about the number i gave on slaughtered Native Americans. I should've written 100 millions. The number is claimed by David E. Stannard. The book is "American Holocaust / Oxford University Press"

I suggest you to read it.

Have you ever checked how the number of killed (or forced to die in desert) Armenians increase within the last 80 years? :) By official documents, the number increases. It was abour 10 thousands. Then it became 100 thousands. Nowadays it's millions. Maybe about 100 years you're gonna claim that Turks killed 2 billions of Armenians.

And what is owning up to the fact? Slaughtering 100millions of people and paying debt to the rest of thousands :) Very smart, quiet American style. If you kill many, you are slaughterer. If you kill all, you are god. Reminds of Stalin :)

Your relatives, my friend, killed my relatives when your army invaded our homeland. They killed pregnant women and took out their babies. I have pictures of that. Wanna me to scan and send you? Maybe it would make you more proud of your invader relatives.

People think here. Don't worry about that. I think it's time for Europeans and Greeks to accept that Anatolia is a Turkish and muslim territory. I don't understand why you still try to awake old hatreds. What's good in it? What if my grandfathers really killed yours? Or what if yours killed mine? Will we kill each other too?
Why would we argue for something we did not participate and witness?

Is this where evolution will bring us to... More intelligent and more brutal. Earned by slander, lie, hatred, anger, envy and so on. Yeah, Homo Sapiens is best about those.

I wish all of you well too.

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250. Comment #250522 by Hellene on September 19, 2008 at 8:26 pm

My last words on this matter:

http://www.armenian-genocide.org/

http://www.greek-genocide.org/press.html

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