301. Comment #252897 by Be-leave-me on September 23, 2008 at 7:37 pm

People saying 'Bad Turkey, no EU for you' and stupid things like that, missing the fact that not all Turkish people are represented by the current goverment. In fact, the enlightened and intelligent ones are strictly against the current Gov. So, if you really want to 'win' those people, and have them in your side you should want even more than ever EU to accept Turkey. There is a thread in our country and we will get rid of them soon, we have gone through way worse situations more than 80 years ago and managed to establish our Republic and declared secularism. No one, nothing will change this fact and no one will be able to take it back from us. They can hurt us but cannot kill. So, if you think that Turkey isn't worth to be accepted by EU and if you hold Turkey away from yourselves, then they will win. Because that is exactly what they try to do. Don't be stupid and don't be so easily fooled. For example, banning Southpark (which was aired entirely her in Turkey btw)in California doesn't make the whole Californians or Americans not worth.

Again, it is a shame that this happens, but it is even more of a shame that some people here are so willing to think that Turkey isn't worth to be accepted by EU. Don't be fooled, think twice.

Richard, it is very frustrating to see your website of truth and enlightment got banned. But remember, nothing can stop the truth spreading all over the world. Truth will find its way, people will hear it, see it, read it no matter what goverments try to fight against it. Your books are standing with all their glory on the shelfs here and nothing can put them down, not in todays Turkey. It is easy to ban a website since it is a matter to push a lousy button, so to speak (since there are no laws against sites regarding atheism, this is just an act of, lie 'oh well, let's ban this site, when people get angrier we can unban it again'). And that is temporary, but your books are here to stay. I hope you don't give up your fight against this issue, I think your website will be available soon, if not any time soon, there are ways to access and that even may trigger a curiousity to whom normally wouldn't even know about you, and make them dwell in your website.. and go 'hmmm, interesting'.

Maybe some good comes out of bad, who knows :)

Other Comments by Be-leave-me

302. Comment #252922 by Mitchie2006 on September 23, 2008 at 9:56 pm

This whole affair is pathetic and completely contemptable.

Other Comments by Mitchie2006

303. Comment #253150 by Atheist_Turkish on September 24, 2008 at 6:31 am

The comments against Turkey's membership to EU are as destructive as the court case of the lunatic Adnan Oktar.

Turkey should join the EU so that the ignorant lunatics cannot find any political ground for their actions.

Support Turkey to join the EU!

A Turkish atheist

Other Comments by Atheist_Turkish

304. Comment #253217 by TurkishAtheist on September 24, 2008 at 7:48 am

I am Turkish and I know Turkey is not ready for EU membership yet, we don't know what is "freedom of speech" yet, we get too emotional and romantic if we don't like someone else's expression or thoughts about some issues. When a Turkish cartoonist draws a cartoon picture of an islamic prophet (con-artist) muhammed on a donkey with lipstick on and a dynamite stuck up his ass and people just look and laugh or look at the other way and no one dies than we're ready, until kind of freedom of expression is accomplished no one deserves to be part of a modern society.

Other Comments by TurkishAtheist

305. Comment #253342 by Atheist_Turkish on September 24, 2008 at 10:20 am

To the commentators who are against Turkey's membership to the EU:

Don't fall into the trap of racism by over-generalising all of the Turks as being extremist Islamists.

Isolating Turkey from the Europe will have severe political consequences both for Turkey and the Europe.

Atheist_Turkish

Other Comments by Atheist_Turkish

306. Comment #253366 by Be-leave-me on September 24, 2008 at 11:21 am

Accepting the flaws of your nation is something, knowing the difference between the ignorants and the intelligent ones is something else. Id wouldn't help any one if you try to be 'bright' by saying 'Oh I am Turkish and I don't think we deserve the EU'. That is pathetic. Emotions and romance have nothing to do with this particular issue. I live in Turkey and I am as secular, intelligent, bright and aware as the rest of the civilized world. I've been to Amnerica, Europe (actually born and lived there), Africa and I can guarantee you, there are ignorants and ignorance as much as in Turkey. There are hatred, racism and other ignorances in Germany, Netherlands, USA, Africa and so on. Should we want these European countries banned from the EU?

The thing is, it is not wise to ignore a nation or country just because of the ignorants, you should care for the intelligents, the bright ones. The biggest problem is (as we see here too) that many people thing that one nation must 'deserve' the EU or other unions to be accepted. No, the unions also must have the obligation to support, help to build and share the civilization with other countries. Because if you see at as 'deserving' than you can easily see that there are many countries that doesn't deserve the EU at all, like Romania, Bulgaria and so on. If the EU wants to prove that it is not a Christian Union, then they must take their steps accordingly...

But on the other hand, I fear that they are a Christain Union rather than a neutral EU. And you 'bright' fellow atheists and/or agnostics cannot even see this fact. Open your eyes, open your minds.

PS: Renate Kuenast (co-chair of the Green parliamentary party of Germany)once said to the ruling part in Germany 'Why don't you accept Turkey, while you are accepting Croatia and others? Let me tell you whty, because they are nice Christians!'

Now ask yourselves this question: Is it because the incompleteness, the lacking democracy and stuff like that, that prevents urkey to be a full member of the EU, or is it because the fact that Turkey is largely (but not 99 percent as they claim) a Muslim country? Would it be easier to be a member if it was a Christian country, despite of the lacking things???

Wake up!

Other Comments by Be-leave-me

307. Comment #253538 by petramann on September 24, 2008 at 2:23 pm

Am I suprised, not at all. Back in 1993, just because one of their atheist writers Aziz Nesin wanted to translate Salman Rushdie's The Satanic Verses into Turkish, the radical Islamists set fire to the Madimak hotel where Nesin was staying. As a result 37 people were killed*. Instead of putting a memorial at the ground level of the hotel they have opened a kebab restaurant! A country that has no respect for its own people, has no respect for foreigners.

*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1993_Sivas_massacre

Other Comments by petramann

308. Comment #253553 by Be-leave-me on September 24, 2008 at 2:41 pm

Hmmm, American cops beating a black man, american goverment virtually leaving the black people to death in New Orleans, Nazi's burning down houses and apartments of Turkish people and killing them in Germany in the past and recently, the xenophobia and racism that is wide spread in the Netherlands as well in other EU cauntries.. wow, I'm blown away how respectful the rest of the world to foreigners and other races are.. :)

There are blind believers in all countries and all those bad things that I and you have mentioned are caused because of those religions. But I thought this site had more people against all those problem causing religions, rather than the nations, the countries, the people. I'm glad to see the true colors of some.

Other Comments by Be-leave-me

309. Comment #253569 by berkopath on September 24, 2008 at 3:04 pm

Dear Be-Leave-Me,

Let me start by saying that I agree to lots of your comments about the current situation in Turkey as being a Turkish who lived there for 26 years. I ve been in other places since 2 years..

Ok..The conservative and islamic AKP is on the stage now and they are "failed" in their mission to prove the Turkish society that they are here to bring equal rights to all majorities&minorities in the country. They just tried to apply this to the people who are from the base among their supporters. This is damn right..

But as being a democrat, I just can not blame the EU for their attribute against Turkey by just being a christian. I am sure that an enlightened one like you has written those lines within a moment of frustration

In Turkey, a lot of people is still feeling the threat of TSK (Turkish Army) for their lives. Our armie's mission is still not just defending the country but also evaluating how the country is governed. For example, in the daily traffic jam, our ordinary people still do not want to mess up with an ordinary military officer just because we were grown up with the fobia and the eternal power of our army (and they have this discriminative rights for theirselves). Because we used to have a saying in our childhood that "one Turk for a whole world". What happenned then? When we slipped away from the childhood, we observed that millions of Turks are stupid than billions of people in the world. Stop here. And answer please.. Can I write this text above in a column of mine in the newspaper that I work? Please just answer. Maybe I am stupid by thinking in this way but just tell me what will happen if I write these thoughts in my column? So, if I should not, you should also agree that this attitude has arrived to our country right after the laws created by the "pathetic" and "facist" military government of 12 Septemper 1980.

The existing government has nothing to defend if Mr Dawkins' site has banned. This is just because the law passed by them as you also mentioned. But, we, Turks...We have to free our minds from the taboos like the Kurdish "problem", Cyprus "invasion" and the Armenian "holocaust". I m not saying anything here. But I m talking about the freedom of the expressibility of these issues with a motivation to follow the path of the "truth". And I am talkin about not killing the Journalists who are using these words in their articles (Pricks killed Hrant Dink). That's why I m quite fed up with this TSK and their facist approaches agains any minority in Turkey since Mustafa Kemal Atatürk. I want to say thank you guys..You saved the country from the enemies. But enough..You re NOT needed anymore in the governmental issues..Leave my people alone..It s .uckin 2008 and 85 years has passed...It s time to relax my dear generals...Don t you think?

So let s put those things together first..Then we should take a look at the religion of the European Union.

Other Comments by berkopath

310. Comment #253578 by petramann on September 24, 2008 at 3:34 pm

Hmm... lets look at the difference between Germany and Turkey:

After the Solingen arson attack in 1993, German government puts a memorial, a memory-stone with a metal plate on which the names of the killed victims are written. Later on the city Solingen planted five chestnut trees there too.

After the Sivas massacre in 1993, Turkish government has rejected to turn the Madimak hotel in to a memorial or show any sign of sympathy for the victims of the massacre. Instead they have opened the hotel with a kebap shop in the foyer! 15 years past human rights groups are still calling for the site to be declared a memorial.


Other Comments by petramann

311. Comment #253736 by Hellene on September 24, 2008 at 9:19 pm

328. Comment #253569 by berkopath


THANK YOU!

I was very moved by your the words that you wrote. My grandfather attended Robert College in Istanbul during the bad times around WW I. He met my grandmother there. His family lived on a small island and were Turkish citizens of Greek origin. My grandfather rescued the Dean and The President of the college when they drove there car into the Bosphorus by mistake one night. He never once said anything against the Turkish other than he was glad he didn't have to serve in the Turkish army, since he was a student. Being an ethnic Greek in the Turkish army at the time was not a good idea. My grandmother told me "We never had any problems with the Turkish people, only with the Turkish army".

I feel for you having to be afraid of "The men in the uniforms". They are supposed to protect it's citizens, not terrorize them. I feel for your not being able to write or speak freely. I have learned some things from different people. One of my best friends is a Creek Indian (Native American). His great-grandmother was on "The trail of Tears". After weeks of walking with "The uniforms" watching, she was forced to swim across the Mississippi river. With a child on her back, in the winter time. Another time I had volunteered my time as a videographer at a holocaust museum. I met a Greek woman from Thessaloniki who was Jewish. She told me the story of how local Greeks had collaborated with the Nazis to send the Greek Jews to the camps. A horrific story. When she showed me the "tattoo" I nearly cried.

One day I wish to go back to the island in Turkey and walk were my Grandfather walked.

The Turkish people are not stupid or ignorant.
You my friend, are proof of what my Grandmother taught me.

EDIT: If you are not familiar with the trail of tears...

CLICK HERE

Other Comments by Hellene

312. Comment #253862 by mistralgagnant on September 25, 2008 at 1:37 am

@petramann - you are absolutely right about the attitude of my people against foreigners. we are not exactly the most humanist people on the earth, and this is our biggest problem. the main thing is, though, you know how nationalisms feed each other, right? so, it is absolutely necessary to express these problems, but without falling into racism/ethnocentrism trap.

@Be-leave-me - you know, we have our issues my dear friend. these issues should be resolved, no matter what. if any american cop beats a black person, it does not nullify our racist problems.
germans burning turkish workers does not change the fact that we burned 33 intellectuals in sivas. do you see my point? others may have their problems, and definitely they should solve them too. but, those facts do not exactly clear our records. we should solve ours, and be very active about it.

@berkopath - thank you, my friend. just plain thank you.

@ hellene - please come and walk with us, side by side, and do not care about what those fascists say; you people are always welcome. there are many many people who realize the fact that we, two nations, share a common land, a common past, and a common cuisine =).

Other Comments by mistralgagnant

313. Comment #253874 by gamerunknown on September 25, 2008 at 1:55 am

Apologies, Fanusi. I haven't had much time to post here, but I was thinking of two comments in particular... The first two you made in this thread of comments, about Muslims contributing nothing to society and London and Berlin becoming the next Constantinople.

Other Comments by gamerunknown

314. Comment #253915 by berkopath on September 25, 2008 at 3:12 am

Comment #253874 by gamerunknown

Vulgar!

Other Comments by berkopath

315. Comment #253926 by Be-leave-me on September 25, 2008 at 3:58 am

Petramann,

I know there are differences between Germany and Turkey. Especially when it comes to these sensible issues, like fascism and racism in particular. If you analyze it on the goverment level, you'll get different results, if you analyze it on a community level you'll get different results. On the other hand, the history of Germany should be also considered. Germany had enough from racism and fascism. And now, anything that would stain their new history, the try to prevent it. That is why Germany is so sensible about it (I'm not saying Turkey shouldn't be sensible as they are, but you get the point). It is utmost unacceptable that the place turned into a kebap shop and I'm really angry about it. But these are the tricks that governments always do. The thing is, I'm not denying that Madimak issue, the banning of the sites and stuff like that and I'm against it - as you might already noticed - but seeing some people falling into the racism trap bothers me very much. If you say 'a countru has no respect for others' you most likey mean the whole nation, the people, not only the government. And you even say 'I'm not surprised'. Please critisize it on a government level rather than a society level, because the banning of this site has nothing to do with the Madimac massacre at all. Both are different things and must be examined accordingly. But if you equalize banning and killing and say 'that country has no respect to others', then we cannot move ahead and miss the whole point.

Berkopath,

I'm glad that you agree with me on many points. Of course I'm not expecting that everyone here agrees with all my opinions. I wont even get into the current ruling government since I don't even want to mention their name anymore - at least in this discussion. The thing is, I'm not saying that I'm certain and sure that the EU is a Christian Union, but I tend to think so, since I have my reasonable concerns (Whereas the parliamenterian Renate Kuenast seems pretty sure). First and foremost, I get the impression that the EU is just trying to deter Turkey by saying 'First do this and that, then do that, then maybe you'll be qualified to be accepted as a full member'. I know there are some criterions to be a full member but please, we hear that story for over 40 years now. I also think that the civilized world shouldn't set so many criterions and rules to accept other nations into the cyrcle. Because I believe, the EU should have also an obligation which would be helping other European countries to get better in the name of civilization. Expecting every criteria to be fullfiled in such time sounds very funny to me. It can be made better along the way, after joining the EU as well. I don't think that Romania, Bulgaria and many other countries (not that I have the slightes thing against those countries and people) meets all the criterias such as human rights, poverty and orginazed crime either. That's why I think the religion of the EU plays a big roe in this issue and that makes me sick because it is becoming more and more so obvious. And let me say also this; in Germany, there are places where you must reveal your religious beliefs, they ask you if you are a Protestant or Catholic and decide accordingly. So, with this in mind, even in their own Christian religion they are divided and they still tend to seperate themselves everyday, how can you imagine an Islamic country to be treated any better, to be accepted so easily, if at all?

As for the army thing, I agree totally with you. There are journalists sued by the army just for critisizing them. And yes, if you'd write anything on your column against them, you'd be most likely have some trouble ahead of you. The army fails on many aspects today, no one can deny that. But things are changing, you know. Turkey isn't the same anymore, although we have a government problem at the moment, we are on a changing road. But let me also say this, although I'm strictly against the army, it always makes me laugh when the EU brings up the army issue ro the table and demands some things from Turkey, whereas America invades Irak, Afghanistan and other European countries such as Spain and England and also Australia sends back up troops to those areas, the whole world watches as if they are watching a movie on the silverscreen. but when it comes to Turkey, the army has to change... you see what bugs me? I'm not triying to justify anyone here but I also try to speak the truth.

Mistralgagnant,

I understand what you mean. But I didn't try to justify, nullify our problems by indicating other country's problems. We have our own problems and they must be solved ASAP. But, as I have mentioned above, I'm also against that people fall into the racism trap so easily. Many of my German, American, English, Scottish friends visited Turkey (during this government, yes) and they loved the place and the people. And some of them even lived, studied and worked here. Of course there are problems, there are many, but looking from the outside can heavily be deceptive. Look at Antalya, whichi s one of the most beautiful places in the turkish riviera, there are living maybe even more Germans than Turkish :) Or look at Hisaronu (Fethiye)which is called literally the 'English village'. They are living peacefully, together with the Turkish people, as one. How many places can you show me like this, in the world? Not many. And I don't agree that the Turkish people are hostile to foreigners at all. Those idiots are everywhere on this planet and they will always be. But generalizing it is the worse thing to begin with. Please don't overcritisize those things inorder to say the truth.

It all comes down to this, friends; in a forum of mostly nonreligious people, bright people, things should be discussed with more care and sense. These governmental gimmicks, tricks (be it Christians, Muslims or else) have one aim, to seperate people and control them. And even if we are as nonreligious ones (athesitic, agnostic, pantheistic or whatever) cannot understand eachother and are so willing to scratch out eachother so easily by a whole, how are we suppossed to get anywhere from here? Religion has no nation to me, it must be seen as a whole. If that can't be done, then they will win.

Other Comments by Be-leave-me

316. Comment #253932 by Atheist_Turkish on September 25, 2008 at 4:07 am

Comment #253874 by gamerunknown

Vulgar!

Other Comments by Atheist_Turkish

317. Comment #253937 by mistralgagnant on September 25, 2008 at 4:12 am

chill out berkopath and atheist_turkish; gamerunknown was referring to the inflammatory posts made by fanusi.

http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,3128,Turkey-bans-biologist-Richard-Dawkins-website,Monsters-and-Critics,page7#251805

Other Comments by mistralgagnant

318. Comment #254039 by oekaki on September 25, 2008 at 7:50 am

See the number of unique visitors to richarddawkins.net from Turkey:

http://trends.google.com/websites?q=http://richarddawkins.net&geo=TR&date=all&sort=0

Thank you for the ban, Adnan.

PS: Under the "Also visited" column, you can see ideefixe.com. That's an online bookstore. I wonder what books these people were searching for. ;)

Other Comments by oekaki

319. Comment #254059 by KidKoala on September 25, 2008 at 8:54 am

hahaha. thats oktar's temper. i hate livin that country n' i hate livin with moslims.

Other Comments by KidKoala

320. Comment #254796 by ozlem on September 26, 2008 at 8:12 am

I am from Turkey, Richard Dawkins official web site is not banned here even i find it pretty ridiculous that there is a banner on the top of the opening page of web site which claims "banned in Turkey" right next to our national flag.

What a shame, millions of people are deceived by this false news

to righton:
"I wonder if this book is used as a texbook in Turkey or if it is really popular?"

God Delusion by Richard Dawkins is really popular here

Other Comments by ozlem

321. Comment #254965 by mindthegap200 on September 26, 2008 at 2:00 pm

Off topic but it made me laugh:

Archbishop of Canterbury Dr Rowan Williams talking about the current financial crisis:

"This crisis exposes the basic level of unreality in the situation - the truth that almost unimaginable wealth has been generated by equally unimaginable levels of fiction, paper transactions with no concrete outcome beyond profit for traders..." **

Pot. Kettle. Black.

** http://uk.news.yahoo.com/itn/20080926/tuk-church-leaders-condemn-traders-dba1618.html

Other Comments by mindthegap200

322. Comment #254972 by muhtesem insan on September 26, 2008 at 2:06 pm

@ozlem
It is banned.
It is banned due to order no: 2008/199D by Şişli 2nd civil court of first instance (Asliye Hukuk Mahkemesi) at 03.09.2008. If you're using DNS servers other than ttnet you could easily access but this does not mean it is not banned.

Other Comments by muhtesem insan

323. Comment #254977 by Be-leave-me on September 26, 2008 at 2:11 pm

Ozlem,

It is banned. The IP isn't banned however, but the website is banned for the regular DNS. So, technically, it is pretty much banned.

Other Comments by Be-leave-me

324. Comment #255267 by f451 on September 27, 2008 at 7:05 am

I am from Turkey, Richard Dawkins official web site is not banned here even i find it pretty ridiculous that there is a banner on the top of the opening page of web site which claims "banned in Turkey" right next to our national flag.

What a shame, millions of people are deceived by this false news

Banning a scientist's website is more ridiculous and emberassing for millions.

Don't make false and misleading comments.

Here is the official explanation of the ban:
"www.richarddawkins.net adlı internet sitesi Şişli 2. Asliye Hukuk Mahkemesi'nin 03/09/2008 tarih ve 2008/199 sayılı kararıyla, Adnan Oktar'ın şahsı ve onun "Atlas of Creation" adlı kitabı hakkında kişilik haklarını ihlal eder nitelikteki yazılar nedeniyle tedbiren kapatıldı."

http://www.ntvmsnbc.com/news/459522.asp

Other Comments by f451

325. Comment #255302 by notsobad on September 27, 2008 at 9:10 am

Controversy is good advertising for RD.net.

Other Comments by notsobad

326. Comment #255722 by Xaarnak on September 28, 2008 at 4:07 am

You do know all this about Turkey banning this site is utter bullshit, don't you..? I'm posting from my home in Istanbul - and I don't use any proxy or anything similar...

As for EU, you can take it and... The more bigot group has never been seen.

Turkey has plenty of flaws - but you are not angels either.

Other Comments by Xaarnak

327. Comment #256111 by goTurk on September 28, 2008 at 6:29 pm

Instead of continue to bash Turkey by Hellene(ic) haters, why don't everyone start defending freedom of speech in very European country of Italy NOW.

As it can be read below:

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/09/26/italian_law_kills_blog/

Blogs are outlawed recently by a court order in Italy.

Now....

1-Do we kick Italy out of EU?
2-Do we start bashing Catholics?
3-Do we start talking about Somalian and Libyan genocides by Italian government?

I bet Italy will not get one tenth of media attention of Turkey got after this website is banned.

Why???????
Because Western Christian (including so called Atheists) are pure HATERS.

You don't care about freedom of speech.

What you care is HATE....

Go head, keep hating us.

You cannot do us what you did to defenseless Jews 60 years ago.. We will not let it...

Here is an excerpt, go help Italians now. Leave is alone...

"Italian bloggers are up in arms at a court ruling early this year that suggests almost all Italian blogs are illegal. This month, a senior Italian politician went one step further, warning that most web activity is likely to be against the law. The story begins back in May, when a judge in Modica (in Sicily) found local historian and author Carlo Ruta guilty of the crime of "stampa clandestina" �" or publishing a "clandestine" newspaper �" in respect of his blog. The judge ruled that since the blog had a headline, that made it an online newspaper, and brought it within the law's remit. The penalties for this crime are not onerous: A fine of 250 Euros or a prison sentence of up to two years. Carlo Ruta was fined and ordered to take down his site, which has now been replaced by a blank page, headed "Site under construction", and a link directing surfers to his new site. Hardly serious stuff �" except that he now has a criminal record, and his original site has disappeared."

Other Comments by goTurk

328. Comment #256114 by Goldy on September 28, 2008 at 6:36 pm

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/science/creationist-offers-prize-for-fossil-proof-of-evolution-945289.html
In the Independent

Other Comments by Goldy

329. Comment #256120 by Goldy on September 28, 2008 at 6:51 pm

A letter from the Indy

New terms in the evolution debate

Professor Anthony C T North suggests that scientists should start referring to Darwin's Theory of Evolution as "Darwin's Laws of Evolution" in order to avoid confusion with the non-scientific use of the word "theory" as meaning a hunch or guess (letter, 22 September).

This seems to me to be a dangerous route to take, as it is likely to move us from frying pan to inferno. In non-scientific terms, laws (like "commandments") are immutable, are imposed by some higher authority and enforce particular behaviour. In science, "law" is usually adopted for fundamental invariable facts of the physical world. Scientific theories, however, are coherent descriptive models that fit observations, allow predictions to be made and are falsifiable. Above all they demonstrate the humility of science, as theories are ready to be modified or abandoned altogether if new knowledge finds them lacking.

I suggest that, rather than abandon a perfectly good word, which is correctly used in the case of evolutionary theory, we should encourage the frequent use of other excellent words that indicate ideas that are less well-founded than are established scientific theories. Hence "The God Supposition", "The Creation Hypothesis" and "The Intelligent Design Conjecture".

Ian Quayle

FOWNHOPE, Herefordshire

Have to say, goTurk, there's a whole heap of hate in you. Let it all out, my man, let it all out :-)

Other Comments by Goldy

330. Comment #256124 by Diacanu on September 28, 2008 at 6:58 pm

goTurk-

You cannot do us what you did to defenseless Jews 60 years ago.. We will not let it...

Wow, there's some hardcore paranoia there.
Settle down, little buckaroo.

Other Comments by Diacanu

331. Comment #256378 by idil on September 29, 2008 at 5:15 am

im turkish now im writing from vienna when i heard that richard dawkins website has became blocked in turkey i felt so sad really but its not about turkish people , religion or something else like that we cant use youtube too in turkey but we hate all of diese things and we re trying to change it (and im sorry about my english . . )ive became a member of this site because of i ve saw our flag, turkish flag at the beginning and its not good because when a person do it ,it means its all about turkish people but its not . .if u can change it ll be more better . . thanks. .

Other Comments by idil

332. Comment #256425 by goTurk on September 29, 2008 at 6:06 am

"Wow, there's some hardcore paranoia there.
Settle down, little buckaroo. "

Tell that to Turkish woman and children who were burned alive in German just last year (not mentioning the many other ones since 1980s).

Assimilation campaigns Turks faced in Bulgaria in 1980s.

Ethnic cleansing of minority Turks in Cyprus between 1964 and 1974 by majority Greeks.

In fact, when Serbs were committing genocide on Bosnian Muslims which they falsely called Bosniaks as "Turks" (for historical reasons, Serbs always called Muslims as Turks), EU did not do anything until the US stepped in (after half a million dead) in 1996. Today if you go to country side Bosnia, you will see peoples backyards are full of mass-graves with headstones inscribed with a white crescent and start on red which is the Turkish flags.

And, I wont even ask following the WWI what happened to Turks living in Balkans and eastern Europe after 6 centuries of Turkish rule . They simply no longer exists, their cultural heritages vanished they did as well.

These are major incidents, not to mention the daily attacks Turks suffer in civilized countries of EU which are not publishing by European media.

As we speak, neo-nazis from all over the EU countries are gathering in Cologne to protest building of a mosque by Turkish community while there seems to be no problem building of churches.

Madam Merkel, the fascist leader of unified Germany, just recently announced that multiculturalism is dead, aiming its attacks on Turks in a very politically savvy way just before the elections, knowing that Germans hates against Turks will pay of during the general elections.

Now, you call me paranoid??

What I am putting out here is the dangers of hate, happening daily basis to Turks and no one talks about it, or protests it. I like to warn those who have slight sensibility to see what they are doing, so, they MAY change their attitude against nation of Turks, and treat them same way they would treat a Greek or an Italian.

No other single ethnicity other than Jews faced so much political and humanitarian agony as Turks of Europe.

And now, some of you are flag carriers of this hate and torture against Turkish people under the auspices of human rights and freedom are "unknowingly" participating on this intellectual genocide.

On top unfortunately, shrinking number of humanist left in Europe is simply fasting this trend.

Stop looking at your the world from you pink looking-glass. You only need to be the suffering party to know the pain is there.

Other Comments by goTurk

333. Comment #256522 by illuyankas on September 29, 2008 at 7:50 am

In Turkey They Also Banned Youtube.com Dailymotion.com Geocities.com and other 1112 ( And Unfortuntely Counting) Portals...

HELP US GET OUR PORTALS BACK !!!!!
HELP TO TURKISH PEOPLE

Other Comments by illuyankas

334. Comment #256735 by UlytauKilij on September 29, 2008 at 12:53 pm

Hello to everybody i writing from Turkiye and seems there is no problem right now....

If they going to ban someone it must be harun yahya i think.But if someone did something like that nobody can blame to all Turkiye too and cant do generation.Honestly funniest thing i cant see who singin democracy songs when they banned a website or something..And truth Richard Dawkins book make record in Turkiye and finished in a day..Only i want one thing dont do generalization.

Thank You.

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335. Comment #257272 by berkopath on September 30, 2008 at 9:08 am

I do not agree to the ideas that are suggesting about the Turkish flag removal from the homepage of this site. If you re on the side of those who are against the "filtering" of the Internet sites in Turkey, than you should support any action against Turkey as also being a one who supports the freedom of speech/expression/living.

No matter how the ban was applied and no matter what were the reasons of it. Yes, it was not religion based. Adnan Oktar brang the case to the court because he "thought" that he was insulted by Mr.Dawkins' site. Of course who does he think that he is kidding? He s taking the advantage of the law for his facist type of behaviours for sure..And there also are some people who can reach to this site easily. But does it matter any difference when we already have this court decision?

So, the Turkish government should be criticised in the most "cruel" way in order to be pushed on changing the existing law (ok go ahead and call me daydreamer). Turkey should be "demonstrated" as "one of the most backwarded countries" in the world to make the lawmakers thing that they might also lose money because of these publicity campaigns. We also should hope that other major sites like Youtube may just publish a banner like we have on this site on their main page with also including our "holy" flag. We have to thank Mr. Dawkins and should ask from the administration to keep that banner as long as possible! Come on..Start cheering up..These guys are seriously and voluntarily involved in a campaign that helps the freedom of the net users in Turkey. Do not try to interrupt them..

So, guys (friends from other nations)..Please "generalise this" and start thinking terribly about Turkey and tell this idiotic case everywhere you go, visit, eat, party, dance, drink, drunk, sex etc etc...Please don t forget to create a desperate image about us. And don t forget to mention about it that currently "1112 internet sites are blocked in Turkey" by the Turkish government and Mr.Dawkins' site is just one of them. Please...

Turkish citizens like us, should not take anything personal when we spot something against Turkey and start asking from people to change their attributes. We should relax some. World are not "crusaders" any more as you think. The things you observe and piss you off are just peoples' thoughts. So that s why you don't have to worry that much...(This will be a way that makes you to understand the basic principles of freedom of expression/speech/living)

What is this "patheticness" that we felt everytime when we see something just against us? How come that our rights are always being neglected on every single case on the earth?

Is there a secret union of the nations that organise meetings and planning how to bring down Turks on this planet?

Is this really what we think and is this really the way how we will improve the quality of our 70 million lives in Turkey?

Isn't it this identical feeling of patheticness (The feeling that Adnan Oktar also felt about himself) that also creates this bunch of filtering of the internet sites in our country?

Shouldn't we need some maturity here? Do we really know what we exactly want from the world?

Let's not fool ourselves with the same mistake when trying to defend our rights. Let's try to keep it cool for a little while and for once in our history. Let's do it in the "right" way.

Other Comments by berkopath

336. Comment #257525 by greekatheist on September 30, 2008 at 2:50 pm

Merhaba berkopath. Nasilsin?
Congrats, your comment was excellent.
Here's a link for you (an essay by Greek writer Nikos Dimou) in case you're interested to see how like-minded Greeks think:

www.ndimou.gr/anti_en.asp

Other Comments by greekatheist

337. Comment #257607 by bleu on September 30, 2008 at 6:43 pm

if you too are living in a country, that sharlatan islamists are ruling; you should not be suprised that a sharlatan-cleric-drug dealer who calls himself "Yahya" would be a definite king.

btw did you hear a name "fetullah gulen" in past few years? he is a close friend of yahya. they are lurking into different eras but their goal is the same: to transform the secular* Turkey into a f... sharlatan islamist republic.

* you should look for french meaning of secularity. not the british one.

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338. Comment #258428 by zekopasa on October 2, 2008 at 2:46 am

this man uses religion for getting money from young and unemployed boys and girls who has a rich family. this fact is known for years. this "bilim araştırma vakfı" or these books, all of them are eyewash for earning new rich fool followers. i think this explains how he efford the cost of these books.
also i am Turk and no one in Turkiye supports this site bannings. here there is no court for internet crimes you can ban a site -which ever you want- by a local court.
we dont want akp!!!
long live freedom!!!

Other Comments by zekopasa

339. Comment #258445 by Be-leave-me on October 2, 2008 at 3:20 am

Berkpath,

While I agree on many points you have made, I disagree on some others. But can you really tell me that the EU is really keen on to have Turkey (or let's say, an Islamic country) on their side? Do you think that, what I have mentioned in my above posts, are just paranoiac things? You didn't make any specific comments on them. And do you really believe that all those crusade loving minds have disappeared entirely and all the countried in this world could actually live in harmony if it wasn't for the Muslims or the paranoiac Turks? I really don't get the point you are making. Are you against religion? Or are you only against Islam? Because you don't seem to get the threat of the EU (which I - unfortunately- tend to call a Christian Union) towards the rest of the world, I'm sorry. There isn't a secret Union, the Union becomes more obvious every year. It doesn't have to be secret anymore, because it can't. It's there, but it is not just to bring down the Turks (if at all, that would be a useless point), it is there to bring down the non-religious people as well. Are you really that blind? Ask yourself one simple question; why is this discussion going on around Turkey and Dawkings the last pages? It must be about 'religion banning a non-religious website'. I see it that way.

Again, I am strictly against banning sites, I am for freedom of speech and truth. But there are many other aspects we have to see.

And BTW, that Guler guy is backed up by the US government, his permit for staying in the US run actually out, but what happenned? US gave him a green card or something like that, so, he can stay safely... hmmm, intersting, isn't it. There some things going on, more than some of you guys actually can get, sorry.

Germany is ruled by two big Christian parties. You may say that Germany is secular, but I would heavily disagree. REligion and religious beliefs are everywhere and that country too is ruled by religion. Maybe it is not visible on a community level, but it is there. And religion is on the rise again, be it in Australia, Germany, USA with Christianism or in Turkey, Iran, Adghansitan with ISlam or in else countries with else religions. This is a fact, but if people don't want to see it and bring down the discussion to a below level and say 'Oh, Turkey is like that, Turkey is like this' than go on. but that won't be much of an help.

Other Comments by Be-leave-me

340. Comment #259508 by Hugo on October 3, 2008 at 12:52 pm

I can see the site in Turkey, but I'm connecting via a roaming cellphone connection, those are probably exempt from the ban.

Other Comments by Hugo

341. Comment #260018 by alegalite on October 4, 2008 at 12:31 pm

Very unfortunate for Turkey. I am ashamed of my country's actions conflicting with freedom of speech. Since when Turkish Government hinders scientific work?! Youtube is also banned in Turkey. They are getting closer to Iran in mentality and trying to join EU. That's ridiculous.

Other Comments by alegalite

342. Comment #260139 by berkopath on October 4, 2008 at 6:00 pm

Be-leave-me,

It's quite unusual for me to comment on the case by just looking at it from just a religious or non religious point of view. What I believe about EU is yes there are also huge amount of people in there who d like to see Turkey with them while also having the existence of the opposers. It would not be healthy for a nation to categorise the issues as blacks or whites. (I was shocked when reading the the link that our Greek friend has posted about Mr.Dimou which is having incredible similarities with this subject in his case in Greece and I reccomend to everyone who is reading these lines. Thank you greekatheist! The information I had from Mr.Dimou was invaluable for me. I already start looking for his book :) )

Let s get back to the subject. I never would like to discriminate the society to two different polars like religious and non-religious people. This has the potential risk of bringing fascism (the real enemy)from both sides. It s also disappointing for me to observe expressions in your comments like " then, they will win". Who are they? While being also a non religious one, why are you taking me apart from them? We re living in a society with full of differences and do you think we can manage to a peacefull daily life "together" with the discrimination that you are creating? You say that religion has no nation to you but don't you unify the world to two nations who hate from each other with this way of thinking?

And if EU is having doubts about Turkey for it s being a muslim country, this is hell of a normal thing. If you ask why that the Turkish citizens are lessly to have doubts about the problems that they may have in case of joining EU, then the answer is sincerely simple. It s because our society is not as developed as the society in Europe. All the daily life styles and moral values of the people are different from the ones they have in Europe. People in Turkey are mostly more conservative because of the rules taught by Islam and also they ve been governed under a pressurised political environment for years. People in Turkey has less tolerancy than the people in Europe to different lifestyles. So these issues might create problems and bring risks to the harmony of their society(yes..they already have those risks.let s say they don t want to increase those risks then). Simply ask yourself about this question; What does a 24 year old taxi driver in Istanbul(suppose that he is driving the cab also around Etiler, Bebek, Besiktas and Taksim) thinks about virginity? How does he rate a girl who is fully self awared of her sexuality and making this guy incredibly happy in bed? If you run a hidden questionnaire among 5000 taxi drivers in istanbul and ask questions like this, how would be the results? When I was a student in Istanbul, it was a great fun for me to ask these questions to the cab drivers. Unfortunately, most of the Turkish men are losing their respect to women, if they have great sex with them and they would never ever see them as their possible wifes in the future. The main reason is that the woman is not a virgin anymore (or she is already not). And other reason is that, if this woman is having this amount of pleasure then, she might possibly betray him to have the same pleasure with someone else.

And how would be the results if you run the same questionnaire in Stockholm for example?

You may also see explain this with religious parameters. But it s a social problem and religion is one important parameter while it is definately not alone with some other important ones(history, economics, the justice system in the country).

I am not blaming anyone from the society here but only the governments that we had in our history to block individuals' developments. Those governments are failed to take the religion to a state that it is a thing between god and the individual. We also have to confess that we were failed to bring up inquisitive minds into our society. We only focused on a 20% of people (luckily, you and me are probably involved in this portion) and forgot the rest. Now is it fair to ask the question of how the islamist government had that 46% crushing defeat in the last election? Didn't we create it by ourselves with all of our polarised and blind lifestyles? Why have I been taught to see a lady wearing a head scarf as a different species (because I always tend to see beautiful ladies around me and it was really odd to see a different type of woman when i was a child)? Why have i been cheated by my elementary school teacher for learning the Turkey as it is just like a country that Ataturk created? And why did Ataturk cheated on me by trying to impose my country as totally a different one (one that he fictioned in his mind) than it is actually? Please don t get me wrong here. I am thankfull and love Mustafa Kemal Ataturk with all of my heart as an individual and I am not writing this for the fascist secularists in my country to shut their mouths up. This is a political thing.. Didn't we all did wrong in somewhere and isn't it the time to confess all the stuff to take Turkey to an unpreventable and a "real" state of development. We should immediately stop ourselves from seeing this country as just the way we want and get completely awared of the situation. The real enemy is the fear that keeps us away to face up with these issues.

When it comes to the secret union thing :)

I do not rate my self as a blind one although if I am missing something here. If yes, this should be because of neglecting a minor detail on a huge draw of painting. And if i lock my self by just looking at that minor detail, I would surely miss the "big picture". Because one thought which is passionatly engaged to an idea is also the one that is not capable of analysing the issues that are having indefinite parameters.

The success story here would be as finding the wisest solution about how to combine EU&Turkey together in a society that all individuals having their own lifestyles, religions and respecting all the others.

Other Comments by berkopath

343. Comment #260307 by brezza on October 5, 2008 at 8:00 am

as a Turkish woman I read all of the comments above with a lot of sadness. i am in sheer horror in fact i can enter this site because i am in italy at the moment.
adnan oktar is a convicted person and yes he is a rapist but all the young girls and boys are brain-washed and think the oktar ia doing everything because of God's will.
Ataturk has changed the face of this country quickly at a time of crisis after winning a big war but it is obvious to me now that the people didn't beleive what they were doing then. Because now everything seems more clear in the last 5 years Turkey is becoming more and more fundamentalist.
I beleive the current goverment doesn't care a bit about God all they care about is money and they are making fools of all the uneducated and educated people who have voted for them.
At times like this I feel ashamed but I don't want to run away from my country I want to make it better.

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344. Comment #260444 by berkopath on October 5, 2008 at 2:13 pm

brezza,

I did not mean anything negative about what Ataturk has done in the past. If my comments made you sad in anyway, then it means that you missed all the points that I m trying to share with all of you. They were the politics made in 1923 and now we have to get a renewed way of thinking to improve the life quality of the individuals after 85 years since Turkey has failed to become a country as Ataturk dreamt. Don t you agree?

I also feel ashamed in many ways as being a Turkish when living in a developed country in Europe. Once, after a drunk man heard that where I am from, the instant question he asked to me is "Turkey? Than you should be against human rights." Do you think this is easy here?

And sorrily, when I have the chance to have a better life in anywhere on earth, I would definately take it. Because the governments in Turkey are not ready to digest the "thougts" of people who want their country to face with its own realities. So, I strictly refuse to be a one to come back and fight for anything. I don t want to get jailed and named as a betrayer when just having thoughts that are believed to be in favour of Turkey.

Good luck and don t forget to scream stronger to ban the headscarf in the mass meetings! That s how we should teach those fundementalists a good lesson and clear them away from our history!

Other Comments by berkopath

345. Comment #260583 by quirinus on October 5, 2008 at 5:50 pm

Hey Turks, whats the problem with you? Islamic pride under an atheist cover? Wake up Turkey is not what we want to see, Where are Bahriye Ucok? Ugur Mumcu? Turan Dursun? Ahmet Taner Kislali? they are all but street names somewhere what happened to them?
After all these the counter-revolution has won 2 major battles in last 5 years what did you say against this and now barking to people who are criticizing Turkey. Your beloved country is gone , fallen to shadows of Islam. If your biology teachers believe evolution is a hoax then you have no right to yell at people abroad for being not fair.

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346. Comment #260638 by Hellene on October 5, 2008 at 7:26 pm

To "greekathiest";

Thank you for the link on Dimou. My grandmother warned me "The Romios would rather die than admit he was wrong".

And to the rest of you guys. Hey don't be ashamed. There are idiots in every country. Look at how McCain has picked Palin for Vice President. Do you think most of us are proud of that?

No EU for USA!

And I leave you with a poke at Hanum Yia Yia:

CLICK HERE

Other Comments by Hellene

347. Comment #260674 by tvictor on October 5, 2008 at 9:34 pm

As Dawkins said about Rabbi Shmuley, people make up for the lack of content in their words by pumping up the decibels. In this case the creationist wacko used fancy graphics (fishing lures) and an expensive book to try to get his empty ideology through.

Didn't worked...

salutations from Brazil

Other Comments by tvictor

348. Comment #260763 by Eirik Hassel on October 6, 2008 at 2:44 am

Spreading lies, raping and blackmailing.. Wow, is he a valuable resource to the world or what?

Other Comments by Eirik Hassel

349. Comment #261253 by orkunuslu on October 6, 2008 at 2:57 pm

To Beanson :

Actually this shows that Turkey should be participated in European Union immadiately (If EU countries do not want another neighbour who is swimming in the darkness and managed as third world countries). Make sure that such kind of darkness will effect EU countries also. Sooner or later... Because Yahya is not supported by only some conservative islamic countries. I think he is being supported by organizations formed by conservatives from all religions...

Best Regards

Other Comments by orkunuslu

350. Comment #262439 by lemehmet on October 8, 2008 at 2:17 pm

I am Turkish and I am living in Turkey and I have to use the Internet connection provided by the Telco monopoly that obeys such rulings. So I may be doing something illegal by accessing this web site, but maybe not. Because the law makers had no understanding of The Internet, so the law in questions is practically useless or if you are a blatant scam like Adnan Oktar useful for any purpose.

What I am going to write about is not directly related to this subject. I am tired of the root causes of this event and I just let of the steam.

For starters, Turkey is not an Islamic state, nor ruled by any other religion. It has been and still is a secular country. It hurts to hear this, after all we have done all we sacrificed.

However it is ruled by ignorant, religious, greedy and blunt politicians. Very much like any other modern state, and yes it includes EU countries, too. From here Sarkozy looks like the French version of Tayyip. So does Bush, or McCain/Palin, or Putin… I am afraid we are living in the populist, plain and shallow leaders' era. Or has it always been like this?

The main difference that enables such ridiculous laws and rulings in Turkey is that normal people that expect a normal life are not organized. In contrast of the "Dark Side", which controls millions of ignorant under numerous religious organizations.

Eventually the organized majority renders the democracy void. Step by step, the system becomes a totalitarian regime of ignorant majority, ruled by shadowy figures beyond the good and evil.

The main stream communications channels, the press, TV stations; important public figures like former liberals; the financial sources... all are getting under control of this "Dark" movement.

The police have "legal" right to wiretap everybody, every kind of communications. And when the time comes they have public prosecutors to eagerly use them to keep people "they" don't like in prison for months, sometimes years even to death in some cases without a solid charge.

So there is really a war between dark and light going on here. I can't help myself imagining Fethullah Gulen, the asserted leader of this movement, in Darth Vader suit :)

The ironic part is this movement is against the western model and it is funded and directed by the West. Do I sound paranoid? Believe me, seeing your country and people dissolve makes you one.

But, there is a bright side of all this. Several major web sites were disconnected from the Turkish net before. Including youtube, wordpress and numerous popular porn sites. Each move created a stir and some level of protest. But it seems closure of Richard Dawkins web site became a symbol and created a roar. As a long time Richard Dawkins reader and fan I am positively surprised to see that. After all who could guess Richard Dawkins to be more important then youtube :)

Other Comments by lemehmet