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Saturday, November 18, 2006 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document I'm an atheist, BUT . . .

by Richard Dawkins

Of all the questions I fielded during the course of my recent book tour, the only ones that really depressed me were those that began "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ." What follows such an opening is nearly always unhelpful, nihilistic or – worse – suffused with a sort of exultant negativity. Notice, by the way, the distinction from another favourite genre: "I used to be an atheist, but . . ." That is one of the oldest tricks in the book, practised by, among many others, C S Lewis, Alister McGrath and Francis Collins. It is designed to gain street cred before the writer starts on about Jesus, and it is amazing how often it works. Look out for it, and be forewarned.

I've noticed five variants of I'm-an-atheist-buttery, and I'll list them in turn, in the hope that others will recognize them, be armed against them, and perhaps extend the list by contributing examples from their own experience.

1. I'm an atheist, but religion is here to stay. You think you can get rid of religion? Good luck to you! You want to get rid of religion? What planet are you living on? Religion is a fixture. Get over it!


I could bear any of these downers, if they were uttered in something approaching a tone of regret or concern. On the contrary. The tone of voice is almost always gleeful, and accompanied by a self-satisfied smirk. Anybody who opens with "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ." can be more or less guaranteed to be one of those religious fellow-travellers who, in Dan Dennett's wickedly perceptive phrase, believes in belief. They may not be religious themselves, but they love the idea that other people are religious. This brings me to my second category of naysayers.

2. I'm an atheist, but people need religion. What are you going to put in its place? How are you going to comfort the bereaved? How are you going to fill the need?


I dealt with this in the last chapter of The God Delusion, 'A Much Needed Gap' and also, at more length, in Unweaving the Rainbow. Here I'll make one additional point. Did you notice the patronizing condescension in the quotations I just listed? You and I, of course, are much too intelligent and well educated to need religion. But ordinary people, hoi polloi, the Orwellian proles, the Huxleian Deltas and Epsilon semi-morons, need religion. Well, I want to cultivate more respect for people than that. I suspect that the only reason many cling to religion is that they have been let down by our educational system and don't understand the options on offer. This is certainly true of most people who think they are creationists. They have simply not been taught the alternative. Probably the same is true of the belittling myth that people 'need' religion. On the contrary, I am tempted to say "I believe in people . . ." And this leads me to the next example.

3. I'm an atheist, but religion is one of the glories of human culture.


At a conference in San Diego which I attended at the end of my book tour, Sam Harris and I were attacked by two "I'm an atheist, but . . ." merchants. One of these quoted Golda Meir when she was asked whether she believed in God: "I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God." Our smirking critic substituted his own version: "I believe in people, and people believe in God."

Religion, he presumably thought, is like a great work of art. Many works of art, rather, because different religions are so varied. I was reminded of Nicholas Humphrey's devastating indictment of an extreme version of this kind of thing, quoted in Chapter 9 of The God Delusion. Humphrey was discussing the discovery in the mountains of Peru of the frozen remains of a young Inca girl who was, according to the archaeologist who found her, the victim of a religious sacrifice. Humphrey described a television documentary in which viewers were invited . . .

" . . . to marvel at the spiritual commitment of the Inca priests and to share with the girl on her last journey her pride and excitement at having been selected for the signal honour of being sacrificed. The message of the television programme was in effect that the practice of human sacrifice was in its own way a glorious cultural invention – another jewel in the crown of multiculturalism . . ."


I share the outrage that Humphrey eloquently expressed: -

"Yet, how dare anyone even suggest this? How dare they invite us – in our sitting rooms, watching television – to feel uplifted by contemplating an act of ritual murder: the murder of a dependent child by a group of stupid, puffed up, superstitious, ignorant old men? How dare they invite us to find good for ourselves in contemplating an immoral action against someone else?"


It would be unfair to accuse our critic in San Diego of complicity in such an odious attitude towards the Inca 'ice maiden'. But I hope at least he will think twice before repeating that bon mot (as he obviously thought of it): "I believe in people, and people believe in God." I could have overlooked the patronizing condescension of his remark, if only he hadn't sounded so smugly satisfied by this lamentable state of affairs.

4. I'm an atheist, but you are only preaching to the choir. What's the point?


There are various points. One is that the choir is a lot bigger than many people think it is, especially in America. But, again especially in America, it is largely a closet choir, and it desperately needs encouragement to come out. Judging by the thanks I received all over North America, the encouragement that people like Sam Harris, Dan Dennett and I are able to give is greatly appreciated. So is this website, as I heard again and again. My thanks, yet again, to Josh.

A more subtle reason for preaching to the choir is the need to raise consciousness. When the feminists raised our consciousness about sexist pronouns, they would have been preaching to the choir where the more substantive issues of the rights of women and the evils of discrimination against them were concerned. But that decent, liberal choir still needed its consciousness raising with respect to everyday language. However right-on we may have been on the political issues of rights and discrimination, we nevertheless still unconsciously bought into linguistic conventions that made half the human race feel excluded.

There are other linguistic conventions that still need to go the same way as sexist pronouns, and the atheist choir is not exempt. We all need our consciousness raised. Atheists as well as theists unconsciously buy into our society's convention that religion has uniquely privileged status. I've already mentioned the convention that we must be especially polite and respectful to a person's faith. And I never tire of drawing attention to society's tacit acceptance that it is right to label small children with the religious opinions of their parents.

That's consciousness-raising, and atheists need it just as much as anybody else because atheists, too, have been lulled into overlooking the anomaly: religious opinion is the one kind of parental opinion that – by almost universal consent – can be battened upon children who are, in truth, too young to know what their opinion really is.

5. I'm an atheist, but I wish to dissociate myself from your intemperately strong language.


Sam Harris and I have both received criticism of this kind, and Nick Humphrey probably has too, for the quotation given above. Yet if you look at the language we employ, it is no more strong or intemperate than anybody would use if criticizing a political or economic point of view: no stronger or more intemperate than any theatre critic, art critic or book critic when writing a negative review. Our language sounds strong and intemperate only because of the same weird convention I have already mentioned, that religious faith is uniquely privileged: above and beyond criticism. On pages 20-21 of The God Delusion I gave a wonderful quote from Douglas Adams on the subject.

Book critics or theatre critics can be derisively negative and earn delighted praise for the trenchant wit of their review. A politician may attack an opponent scathingly across the floor of the House and earn plaudits for his robust pugnacity. But let a critic of religion employ a fraction of the same direct forthrightness, and polite society will purse its lips and shake its head: even secular polite society, and especially that part of secular society that loves to announce, "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ."

Comments 51 - 100 of 273 |

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51. Comment #7405 by Manfred on November 18, 2006 at 1:30 pm

Think!

I wonder why you use internet or any other technology at all! That great "lie" that you call science has made it possible after all. Next time you go to get a flu shot, beware, scientist have made that possible too! And you don't want any part in it, do you?

You obviously don't know anything about science, scientific method and scientific theory. Again, before starting your attacks again, get a science book and read it for once!

AND GROW UP!

52. Comment #7409 by Manfred on November 18, 2006 at 1:45 pm

"I see, so if I keep repeating 'theory' over and over again in my head, I'll finally get the word 'FACT'? Hmmmm, interesting, I never knew that."

Of course not!

SCIENTIFIC theory does not mean something that people (scientists in this case) have made up out of no where. Scinetists come up with theories that can explain facts. Those facts have come about either through observation or experiment.
There have been many theories that were discarded by scientists because they were not compatible with factual evidence.
By modifying and taking the experimental results and observations into account you can come up with a theory that explains your facts best.

Scientific theories are testable and falsifiable, meaning that if you find an evidence that your theory cannot explain, it ceases to be a true scientific theory.

Evolution is a SCIENTIFIC theory and there are scores of scientific evidence that backs it up.
It is not a guess out of the blue. It explains facts. Those facts are observed.

Relativity is also a theory. A SCIENTIFIC theory, because it explains the observations and experiments very well. The same with quantum theory.

53. Comment #7413 by Vadjong on November 18, 2006 at 1:50 pm

I am an atheist, but also an adeist, apantheist, apandeist (huh?), a-astrologist, aparanormalist, a-alienabducteeist, aspaghettimonsterist and so much more my brain starts to hurt. (Man, such negative vibes ! Chill, bro.)

I am an atheist, but only because some other people choose to be theists, so don't blame ME, and don't BLAME me !

I am an atheist, but thank God for that. (One for Doug Hofstadter.)

I am an atheist AND happy, lucky, decent, loving, discerning, goodwilling, balanced, easygoing, evenhanded, honest, enriched by reading more than one book, mindfully openminded, protective of the weak, inquisitive about life's wonderments, not-too-humble perhaps, but .... should I go on ?

54. Comment #7416 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 1:53 pm

Think! said (#114):
" @Entropy
Might I suggest you re-read my post again, referring simultaneously to a good dictionary on the meanings of the word 'waste' and put it in context? Oh, and preferably not under the influence of ethanol this time! ;)

@Randy Ping
I see, so if I keep repeating 'theory' over and over again in my head, I'll finally get the word 'FACT'? Hmmmm, interesting, I never knew that.

Let me get this straight, if anyone contends, scientifically, the validity of any explanation given to fossil 'evidence', then he immediately ceases to be 'legitimate'?"

1) Theory does not mean "Loosely held idea," which is the colloquial sense, annd the sense in which you are using it. It means confirmed, over and over again, through one hundred and fifty years of observation and experimentation, originated in times when calling oneself an atheist could get one beaten up on the spot.

2)Please don't use the adjective "scientifically" for what you are doing. Using one's irrational prejudices is not science.

55. Comment #7418 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 1:54 pm

Torbjörn Larsson made false statements:
IIRC Davies is religious, which is consistent with "purpose in nature".

No, that's false, per his public proclamations of atheism.

The first is that it is folk psychology. There is no definable purpose and meaning to humans as natural phenomena.

No, that's false depending on which cosmological model is in effect.

Stick to something that you know, like unproven assumptions about the reality of unproven cutting-edge speculation.

Oh, my mistake... that's what you did, but it has nothing to do with origins science.

Try a physics forum.

56. Comment #7420 by DingoDave on November 18, 2006 at 1:57 pm

Think wrote in comment 7379:
"To the blind followers of Dawkins: To me, the greatest proof that God exists is me. Myself. Take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself: How can I not believe that this is a perfect creation?"

Dear Think,
I think (pardon the pun), that you have just inadvertently helped to validate the concept that man has created the gods in his own image and likeness.
If a Zebra was capable of creating a god, I suspect that it would look remarkably like a Zebra.

57. Comment #7422 by Randy Ping on November 18, 2006 at 2:02 pm

Evolution is a fact. It has been sufficiently proven as such. There is NO legitimate argument that has been made against it. There is absolutely ZERO evidence to the claims against it. ALL evidence points to Evolution through Natural Selection again and again.
Don't try and pull the "prejudice" card either. It's bogus and you know it.
Oh, and you could AT least have the courage to put your name with your words, btw, mr anonymous.

58. Comment #7423 by island on November 18, 2006 at 2:04 pm

Comment #7418 was mine.

59. Comment #7428 by Vadjong on November 18, 2006 at 2:11 pm

Comment 7410

Why are you afraid to call a spade a spade?
A theory is just that, a theory. How do you people in your right minds manage to magically convert it to a 'fact'?

Interesting, Think!, I can recommend you (and everybody else) "Just a Theory" by Moti Ben-Ari
(ISBN 1-59102-285-1)

60. Comment #7429 by Walter Yergen on November 18, 2006 at 2:12 pm

Comment #7400 by Yorker

>>Everything that exists on the Earth is made of atoms, you say that's wrong. If you deny this atomic "fact" as Feynman called it, then get ready to pick up the Nobel prize for physics, you are about to change the world. All you have to do is present your evidence to science and get it accepted. Keep in mind that some "dopey philosophical idea" (another Feynman expression) isn't going to cut it.<<

I didn't say that atoms don't exist, now did I? Nor did I say that everything in the world isn't made of atoms. All I said is that "God the Creator" creates all things from nothing.

Check out

= Foundations
= Greg Egan
= 4: Quantum Mechanics
http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/FOUNDATIONS/04/found04.html
= Copyright © Greg Egan, 1997-2000
= Last revised Saturday, 8 February 1999

One starts to lose ones' sense of certainty when one questions ones' foundations.

Incidently, I became a member of RD's Forum recently. We could probably pursue a thread or two of interesting topics if you are also a Forum member.

- Walt

******
******
******

61. Comment #7432 by Peter on November 18, 2006 at 2:17 pm

The 'anti religion' debate is more often than not, very passionate. What fuels this passion?

BTW I am an atheist.

62. Comment #7436 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 2:24 pm

@Twistedfirestarter

I will take your bait, my disturbed little one.
Who created God? Uhmmm, I don't have an answer. But neither do you, or any 'scientist' have an answer to the simple problem of how did life really start and what started it?

So until you answer the simpler questions, don't hurt your tiny little brain on the more difficult ones, okay?

'Archaeoptrex'? Don't you mean 'archaeopteryx'? A bunch of fossilized skeletons upon which you base your 'evidence'?

Don't you find it interesting that all the evidence that points to evolution is based on mutated, decomposed, bony fragments, while that of creation points to living creatures seen all around us?
How convenient.

63. Comment #7438 by goddogit on November 18, 2006 at 2:25 pm

It is a pleasure to have someone like Richard Dawkins as "the stick that stirs the drink" in discussing the original fraud that goes under the trade name of "religion" since, even when I disagree with him (I practise and enjoy activities that he would rightly define as entirely superstitious nonsense, and which I believe he would perhaps prefer - but never directly or indirectly insist - I stopped due to that little bug for "purity" that atheist scientists seem to have), he has the most marvelous talent for putting pepper up the noses of people who insist upon imitating Barbary apes in their argument.
I think there are reasonable "buts" to be found in describing atheism. However, Prof. Dawkins has done us a service in starting a list of the silliest and most dishonest, upon which we can work together to root out the more insidious, which I am pretty sure we all at least latently possess.

A special note to self-defined "Alpha" Dom in Comment #7272: you clearly ain't so smart yourself. No-Zeus forbid a debate between politicians and pundits about a replacement!
There is a real danger in consciously deciding what will replace religion (more exactly, in having "leaders" "decide" [meta-stuff always needs so many darn quotation marks!]} since it will necessarily be a new pseudo-religion. No large scale replacement is possible, only the activities of very small groups working out local problems in their own ways.
Religion needs to be bled of its status and power, shown to have those fabled "feet of clay" at all times. People's real needs, which religions have used to gain form and power - mating rituals, coming-of-age, births and deaths customs, seasonal celebrations - can be slowly and naturally developed, but this time with the conscious instruction by the adults (the wisest of whom have always known this) that it is life and humanity that are being feted, not some supernatural being.
Despite the despairing efforts of the fundamentalists and the leeches who assist them in politics and the media, this is going on now in an uncanny imitation (I do wonder at the... coincidence?) of our current understanding of the evolutionary process.

64. Comment #7441 by RascoHeldall on November 18, 2006 at 2:35 pm

" I think that it's funny how scientists try to explain everything in the world. Such as all of the little biddy itty atoms or genes that make up life. It's completely endless and no one can explain how babies are born or what defines their genetics. But the biggest theory that's just an utter let down is the big bang theory of how everything just came to existence. So, how does complete nothingness just come into complete living ability?"

Hmm, what are those thingummies again? Oh yes, that's it - books!

Just read a few books, friend. That's all we ask.

65. Comment #7448 by DingoDave on November 18, 2006 at 2:47 pm

Think wrote:
"What a waste of humanity, you atheist lot..."
And
"Why are you afraid to call a spade a spade?
A theory is just that, a theory. How do you people in your right minds manage to magically convert it to a 'fact'?
Wake up atheists. This new 'religion' of yours is pretty pathetic, and so are you, if you'll forgive me for saying so."

Sorry Think. I don't forgive you for being an IGNORANT BLOWHARD!

Go get an education and then come back to us with something that approaches a basic understanding of the topics upon which you presume to pontificate.
For starters, familiarise yourself with the basic definition of a scientific theory. Try taking a look at the Wikipedia definition of a 'scientific theory', which for these purposes is as good as any. Here's what it says.

"In scientific usage, a theory does not mean an unsubstantiated guess or hunch, as it often does in other contexts. A theory is a logically self-consistent model or framework for describing the behavior of a related set of natural or social phenomena. It originates from and/or is supported by experimental evidence (see scientific method). In this sense, a theory is a systematic and formalized expression of all previous observations that is predictive, logical and testable."

Please get a clue, then you might find that your opinions will be received with a little more respect around these parts.

66. Comment #7465 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 3:15 pm

"I'm an atheist, but people need religion. What are you going to put in its place? How are you going to fill the need?"

"From "The Atheism Tapes":-

Daniel Dennett: A lot of people, many many people want their lives to have a meaning, and where's it going to come from?

Jonathan Miller: Yes, but there must be something better than religion, but I...

Daniel Dennett: Yes... there... we certainly hope there is, but what's it going to be?"

Individual solutions at the individual level. It won't be decided for everybody by a few. Put the evidence against religion out there, expose the abuse of religion, and let people find their own way. "Freethinking" is about education, not leading people by the nose.

67. Comment #7471 by maryhelena on November 18, 2006 at 3:18 pm

Hi, Solas

Maryhelena said:

"Nor do I have regret or concern that religion is here to stay. For me, it just is. A fact of life, a fact of the human experience of life."

"Well it depends on the timescale to some extent, doesn't it, Maryhelena. There are lots of things which were facts of life to our ancestors. The idea that the earth was flat was a 'fact of life'. "

Indeed, many ideas about human life have changed. My point is that, as of now, we don't have any historical data of people without some form of religion - and no modern evidence that would indicate that religion will become obsolete.

"Religion has already disappeared as a significant factor in the lives of most people in quite a number of European societies and in Japan, among others. A recent post on this site (I think based on a Daily Telegraph poll but I can't recall the details) shows a long term decline in religious belief and practice in Britain."

If that is so then why the fuss over state sponsored faith schools in the UK? If there is no need, no request, for such schools then why is the UK government wanting to spend money on them? Perhaps it's all about votes - perhaps the 'religious' vote is such a significant factor that the government, or any political party, needs to play along? Looks like political democracy is hoist upon it's own petard...

Maryhelena "It is within these theological structures that lies the potential for good or evil. The evil potential is realized when theology seeks to operate as something other than theology - when it seeks to operate either as morality or as political ideology."

"This makes no sense at all. The human conceptualisation of 'good'and 'evil' arose long before theology was ever thought of; they are abstract categories which our ancestors invented to distinguish behaviours which benefitted survival and social bonding from behaviours which were inimical to same."

I think perhaps you have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that theology is the source, the standard, of what is good or evil. I'm saying that theology contains, within itself, a potential for good and evil. Theology can be an intellectual endeavor that provides, for some people, some good, some value in their lives. On the other hand, theology, when it attempts to operate outside of a purely theological context, when it strives for a social/political expression, can be a source of evil, a source of social/political conflict.

Maryhelena: "On the other hand, I do have respect for religion, respect for its insistence that spiritual value, as opposed to purely material values, are what enable us to reach the heights of our humanity."

"I think religion gets in the way of such a spiritual sense. I am aware that I am made of stardust, one of the astonishingly tiny number of organized groups of molecules in the universe which is self-conscious and is aware of its own existence. I can therefore 'commune' with the entire universe and feel a part of it. That to me is what 'spiritual' means: "

Well put - I would just change the word 'religion' to 'theology. It is theology that can get in the way of spirituality, not religion. I don't think religion and theology are synonymous terms - and I don't use them in an interchangeable manner. (Religion in the Einsteinian sense).

"Religion actually contaminates that real spiritual sense by infantilising it; by reducing it to the notion that some magical being created all of this, thus choking off our need to explore, to wonder without fantasising; to understand without fear."

That's theology not religion. Religion, in it's fundamental form, is simply our capacity for, and our ability, to seek spiritual values. Theology is man's attempt, a very often inadequate attempt, to give some sort of definition and meaning to our spiritual values.

68. Comment #7477 by Nicole on November 18, 2006 at 3:24 pm

I am an atheist, but I still haven't found my "church."

69. Comment #7485 by Jonathan Dore on November 18, 2006 at 3:40 pm

Maryhelena writes: "If that is so then why the fuss over state sponsored faith schools in the UK? If there is no need, no request, for such schools then why is the UK government wanting to spend money on them? Perhaps it's all about votes - perhaps the 'religious' vote is such a significant factor that the government, or any political party, needs to play along? Looks like political democracy is hoist upon it's own petard..."

Hi Maryhelena, eternal optimist here. I think what's happened in the specific situation in Britain is that a prime minister of unusually enthusiastic religiosity (certainly the most intense believer to occupy that office since Gladstone), which is very unusual in Britain, is using the power of his office, allied with his own personal obsession with education (it's the department he interferes in most) to artificially boost the power of organized religious lobbies by handing them on a plate the power to influence future generations of schoolchildren by giving them control of hundreds of state schools. This is not in response to any groundswell of religious feeling in the population at large; it's the result of hardline religious lobbies (especially Muslims and evangelical Christians), who were excluded from the previous cosy arrangements regarding state-funded Anglican, RC, and Jewish schools, demanding equal access, in combination with a prime minister actively willing to give them whatever they want. Meanwhile, the old-established Anglicans etc. are more than happy to use their power over the educational system to try to compensate for their loss of influence over society as a whole.

So the entire growth of religious schooling in Britain is basically down to political choices that actually indicate nothing about the (generally declining) religiosity of the nation as a whole.

70. Comment #7493 by suresh on November 18, 2006 at 4:13 pm

So you religion is atheism?

71. Comment #7496 by Jonathan Dore on November 18, 2006 at 4:17 pm

Think! writes: "As long as you continue to have this unshakable 'faith' in your 'religion' of atheism, pretending to validate it by still-debated theories and posing them as facts, then I'm afraid no amount of discussion will help show you people the amazing peace and harmony that religion will have on your lives."

Evolution is both a fact and a theory. The facts are there both in the fossils (which show unmistakable patterns of morphological development between succeeding species), in the rocks in which they're found (which are databale in absolute terms by radiometric dating), and in the DNA (the extent of the difference between different species indicating the time that has passed since they shared a common ancestor). Those are all *facts*.

The *theory* is the explanation for how those facts came about. Darwin and Wallace hit on the brilliantly simple idea of "natural selection": the idea that individuals which are better adapted to survive in their environment have a better chance of reproducing, and thus of pass on their characteristics to their offspring; those characteristics will then get reinforced in succeeding generations, because they help their carriers to reproduce and thus spread those genes ever wider.

This is a *theory* in the sense that it is suggested by the *facts* (the evidence -- after all, why do you think Darwin and Wallace both came up with the idea, independently, in the first place?), it agrees with the facts (i.e. they don't contradict it), and is testable by the facts (i.e. new evidence that emerges agrees with it). In principle, the theory can also be disproved by the facts (if no new evidence could, even in principle, disprove it, it would not be a valid theory in the scientific sense). After 150 years of intensive study by scientists all over the world, natural selection is the only theory to have emerged that stands up to all these tests. It's the only theory that fits all the facts. Given the huge amount of evidence that's been collected on the subject, that makes it a very strong theory indeed, which is what makes it so very much more likely to be true than any alternative.

So people don't "pose theories as facts", as the liars who taught you have led you to believe. The facts are observed first. The theory comes later.

As for the "amazing peace and harmony" of religion, well ... you don't seem to be exhibiting much of either yourself. You sound more like the kind of belligerent, abusive believer of comforting certainties that I used to be, back when I was a supernaturalist like you. Contrary to your name, you sound like you're afraid to think of new ideas, because of where they might lead you, and you cover up your fear with abuse (apologies if I've misjudged you, and you are simply naturally unpleasant). Hopefully one day you'll have the courage to think a little further.

72. Comment #7499 by CF1 on November 18, 2006 at 4:23 pm

I used to be an atheist, but after much thought and consideration, I feel it's time to grow past that and be an "anti theist".

;)

73. Comment #7504 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 4:30 pm

74. Comment #7505 by Stu on November 18, 2006 at 4:32 pm

Have a read of these two sister articles:

http://paralleldivergence.com/2006/11/04/which-is-stronger-manfluence-or-godfluence/

http://paralleldivergence.com/2006/11/11/how-hubble-killed-god/

Both are very interesting reads.

75. Comment #7507 by DingoDave on November 18, 2006 at 4:34 pm

On November 18, 2006 at 3:03 pm Think wrote:
"DingoDave. Oh dear. I'm afraid I can't make my sentences any simpler, mr dumbo...sorry dingo. You seem to be a very intelligent person. I mean, you were actually able to use the browser to cut and paste and quote wikipedia.
So that's what theory means. Thanks for the heads up.
But you didn't tell me how the heck does a theory equal to a fact. Got that? Let me repeat: Theory=Fact. True? Or False?
I await your response..."

The 'fact' that you would have the temerity to ask such a question speaks volumes about your lack of familiarity wtih the subject.
Of course theory does not = fact! Any attentive high school student should be well aware of the answer to that question.
A theory takes into account all the 'facts' and then pulls them together into one harmonious, and parsimonious explanation, which satisfactorily accounts for all the 'facts'.
Did you actually read the article I referred you to?
Yes, I cut and pasted from a Wikipedia article, partly because I didn't trust you to pursue any reference that I offered to you under your own steam, and partly to make it easy for any other people that may have found your arguments persuasive, to see for themselves the depth of your misunderstandings about the scientific method and how it works.
I don't wish to have this thread to descend into some sort of 'flame war'.
Do your homework please.
If you don't do your homework, how can anyone ever hope to have a productive conversation with you about any of these things?
Of course you are entitled to your own opinions. What you are not entitled to (in my opinion) are your own facts.

76. Comment #7508 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 4:38 pm

Maryhelena,

How nice it is to cross swords with someone who believes in intelligent debate. Having said that, I must dispute most of your points. You wrote:

"...My point is that, as of now, we don't have any historical data of people without some form of religion - and no modern evidence that would indicate that religion will become obsolete."

We do actually. Buddhism does not require any belief in a deity (nor does it exclude such belief) but millions of Buddhists practice their spirituality without needing to believe in a deity, and have done so for a very long time. And we do a have empirical data which points to declining religious belief and observance in Europe and elsewhere. As a general rule of thumb (there are always exceptions) societies become less religious as they become richer and more educated.

Maryhelena: "….then why the fuss over state sponsored faith schools in the UK? If there is no need, no request, for such schools then why is the UK government wanting to spend money on them?

The problem is that there is not enough fuss. There is no need for them but there is a demand for them by a small minority of religious believers. Frankly I have no objection to religious believers setting up their own schools provided they pay the salaries of the teachers and all other expenses involved. The problem is that British taxpayers are being forced to pick up the tab and your Prime Minister ( I'm assuming you're British) is supporting them. If a Satanic cult set up a school would you, as a British taxpayer, be happy to support them?

Maryhelena: "I think perhaps you have misunderstood my point. I'm not saying that theology is the source, the standard, of what is good or evil. I'm saying that theology contains, within itself, a potential for good and evil. Theology can be an intellectual endeavor that provides, for some people, some good, some value in their lives. On the other hand, theology, when it attempts to operate outside of a purely theological context, when it strives for a social/political expression, can be a source of evil, a source of social/political conflict."

So, "theology contains, within itself, a potential for good and evil." You still don't explain why this statement has any meaning. Theology is allegedly an academic discipline. You might as well say that economics has, within itself, the potential for good and evil (which would actually make more sense).

Maryhelena: "Religion, in it's fundamental form, is simply our capacity for, and our ability, to seek spiritual values. Theology is man's attempt, a very often inadequate attempt, to give some sort of definition and meaning to our spiritual values.

I take it that you are defining theology as the study of religion, a study which a priori accepts the basic postulates of religious belief, i.e. does not question the existence of a deity/deities? I have no problem with that definition. But I do take issue with your definition of religion: "Religion, in it's fundamental form, is simply our capacity for, and our ability, to seek spiritual values."

In its fundamental form religion is about belief that one or more gods exist and have superhuman powers. There is no rational reason to accept this belief. Do you agree?

77. Comment #7512 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 4:47 pm

Walt,

I never debate people who use phrases like "God the Creator", I long ago realised it's a waste of time. Worthwhile debate is only meaningful if all parties agree that their minds are open to change in the light of utmost reason. I have yet to meet a single god follower willing to accept that simple and honest proviso. As an atheist I'm 99.99% convinced there's no god but I'll concede I could be wrong. Just look at what this thread has become, not one religite here has even considered for a microsecond that they may be wrong. Saddest of all, they don't even realise that this weakness automatically prohibits them from sane conversation, they just keep prattling mindlessly on.

That was my last post on this degenerative thread.

78. Comment #7523 by Ben on November 18, 2006 at 5:31 pm

It would be good to mention this during conversations like #5 when people talk about atheist groups, or think of atheism as a religion. Is that the only things two atheists have in common is the same thing two aunicornists have in common. -ps great job, and congrats on making salon.com hottest men of the years list! haha!

79. Comment #7544 by Walter Yergen on November 18, 2006 at 6:46 pm

Comment #7512 by Yorker on November 18, 2006 at 4:47 pm

>> I never debate people who use phrases like "God the Creator", I long ago realised it's a waste of time. Worthwhile debate is only meaningful if all parties agree that their minds are open to change in the light of utmost reason. I have yet to meet a single god follower willing to accept that simple and honest proviso. As an atheist I'm 99.99% convinced there's no god but I'll concede I could be wrong.<<

Thanks for your patience.

In my original post I agreed with what you are saying now. Is string theory a valid approach to an understanding of our world? The fact is, we just don't know yet.

We have no choice but to live with uncertainty in the world of quantum physics. But uncertainty is not something that we can accept with equanimity when it seems to us that life depends on the truth of our beliefs.

Peace! Until we meet again.
- Walt

******
******
******

80. Comment #7546 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 6:48 pm

I'm an atheist BUT, I'm not going to be completely honest with my evaluation of the evidence and instead I am going tell you that there is a God. Rather then look to the evidence for questions about my existence, I prefer to rely on faith and make assumptions based on something other then evidence. I refuse to admit that I do not know the complete answer to a question such as how the universe began. Instead, I choose to invent an all powerful supernatural whose conceptual framework is rooted in a book written in the Iron Age to answer this and other philosophical questions I have about my life.

Evidence is not important to me, I wish to argue for the existence of my God based on other grounds. I completely trust the inner revelations my God made to people living 1000's of years ago as authentic and true. I base this assertion not on evidence, but on my high regard for the trustworthiness of peoples inner revelations into the nature of God as they were duly recorded in history in my special book.

81. Comment #7547 by Mal on November 18, 2006 at 6:51 pm

Re: comment 88 -To the blind followers of Dawkins: To me, the greatest proof that God exists is me. Myself. Take a hard look in the mirror and ask yourself: "How can I not believe that this is a perfect creation?", "Could I have evolved from a slug?".

It appears we have been visited by the worlds largest egotist. And yes, you could have evolved from the distant ancestor of modern slugs, although I suspect that if slugs knew this they would feel embarrassed.

82. Comment #7550 by Jonathan Dore on November 18, 2006 at 7:07 pm

Walter Yergan writes: "We have no choice but to live with uncertainty in the world of quantum physics. But uncertainty is not something that we can accept with equanimity when it seems to us that life depends on the truth of our beliefs."

Not sure what you mean by uncertainty here, Walter. Far from being uncertain, quantum physics makes predictions that can be confirmed experimentally -- and have been -- to accuracies of several decimal places. Or are you referring to Heisenberg's Uncertainty Principle? That's a precise and elegant mathematical formulation of the inverse relationship between the degree of accuracy with which we can measure the position of a subatomic particle and that with which we can measure its direction. I hope you're not committing the common solecism of confusing the Uncertainty Principle with the idea that there is some general, mystical quality of "uncertainty" inherent in quantum physics ...

There may well be grounds for disturbing our equanimity about the non-existence of the supernatural -- but if there are, they have nothing to do with quantum physics.

83. Comment #7553 by Jonathan Dore on November 18, 2006 at 7:15 pm

Anonymous (comment 208): Thanks for the laugh, friend. Nice to have some light relief!

84. Comment #7554 by beepbeepitsme on November 18, 2006 at 7:16 pm

Keep up the good work, Richard.

85. Comment #7557 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 7:25 pm

Amen, brother. Amen!

86. Comment #7561 by Mark Davis on November 18, 2006 at 7:44 pm

Anonymous (comment 208): Thanks for the laugh, friend. Nice to have some light relief!

I'm glad you enjoyed the little bit of satire. It's a snippet of a larger paper I'm working on. I've yet to publish anything in the religion arena, but I hope to soon. I think humor can be a great tool to point out very obvious things that are sometimes difficult to talk about. I'm taking a little bit of that approach while still trying to maintain a strong stand against religion a la Sam Harris or Richard Dawkins...if you want another laugh I typed Richard Dawson there for a second.

We really need to rethink the concept of religion as a society. It's time we start being honest with ourselves about the costs of religious beliefs. How many millions do we have to kill in the name of God before we start to seriously question that God? It all starts with honesty and admitting that we don't know every thing. So many people seem to have a hard time accepting that.

87. Comment #7563 by Anonymous on November 18, 2006 at 7:53 pm

I'm an atheist but I understand why some people are religious. And really, there is a difference between criticising a bad movie and denouncing the belief system of the vast majority of the world as the root of all evil.

88. Comment #7565 by Chris on November 18, 2006 at 8:07 pm

So Richard Dawkins wants to be glorified for his outstanding wit does he?

Give me a break. The reason "polite society" shakes it's collective head at you is the same reason they shake their head at rapists. People hold spirituality dear to their hearts, people hold virginity dear to their hearts, people hold their sexual freedom dear to their hearts, etc.

I mean, sure, call it all "irrational", but I'm on the side of humanity that thinks if something is important to someone, and it's not doing other people harm, then mocking and sarcastic remarks are what make this world a worse place.

You're no better then other overly religious zealots who damn those who disagree to hell.

89. Comment #7568 by Mark Davis on November 18, 2006 at 8:18 pm

I'm an atheist but I understand why some people are religious. And really, there is a difference between criticising a bad movie and denouncing the belief system of the vast majority of the world as the root of all evil.

Take a moment and look at the world around you and the known history of the world. It is hard to do, but reflect on how terrible it was when a 4 year old girl cowering in the corner after just having witnessed her parents slashed to death with swords. Really picture this girl. Understand that she is about to be killed because there is a difference of opinion as to what is the correct historical interpretation of a supernatural being that created the Universe. A girl is about to die over that. What is really sad is I can set a scene like that just about anywhere in history and it has occured. Untold millions of 4, 5, 6, 7, year old girls have been killed or had loved ones killed over a difference of opinion about the nature of the creator of the Universe. Think about all the horrific scenes of all the death and suffering that people just like you and me have had to endure in the name of belief in the supernatural. From the Crusades to 9/11 to the person who was probably murdered somewhere in between the time it took me to write this post religion continues to take it's toll.

90. Comment #7572 by Mark Davis on November 18, 2006 at 8:35 pm

I mean, sure, call it all "irrational", but I'm on the side of humanity that thinks if something is important to someone, and it's not doing other people harm, then mocking and sarcastic remarks are what make this world a worse place.

Have you ever reflected on how many people have died over irrational beliefs? A better question is, how many people do you think should have to be killed over different sets of irrational beliefs before we consider them a dangerous idea? I don't consider it harmless that the President of the United States actually uses a book written 2,000 years for not only guidance in making decisions, but also for confirmation that the decisions he made MUST be right. That kind of conviction in irrational beliefs is extremely dangerous. Can you see how those irrational beliefs might skew his judgement on extremely important issues?

91. Comment #7575 by Mal on November 18, 2006 at 8:47 pm

'If creating a universe is evidence of God, then destroying it would be proof of God.'

Please don't put ideas like this in theists minds. The more stupid of them already crave Armageddon.

92. Comment #7576 by Peter on November 18, 2006 at 8:47 pm

Re:140. Comment #7435 by abused ex christian

Agree absolutely. this discussion is for some, energised by memories of past abuse.

Bad behaviour is frequently cloaked in the virtuous cloth of religious authority, political power, academic freedom, or social privilege.

It is probable that some of the people participating here have not been abused, thus other reasons exist for the energy in this debate.

That it generates far more heat than light, is beyond reasonable doubt. Why ? I am still puzzling over this question.

93. Comment #7582 by Mal on November 18, 2006 at 9:05 pm

I am an atheist, but I find it annoying when people automatically assume this makes life meaningless and empty. Perhaps the whole world would feel much happier if, instead of using science to create weapons of mass destruction etc., it pooled its resources into finding ways of extending our lifespans, hopefully indefinitely. By exploring the fields of AI and neuroscience I believe we would stand a much better chance of experiencing eternal life than by strapping a bomb to ourselves and killing other people in the name of God.

94. Comment #7583 by Jesse on November 18, 2006 at 9:06 pm

I'm an atheist, but sometimes I applaud the devout for being able to delude themselves into complacency with death. I'm pretty certain there's no afterlife, but that doesn't stop me from desperately wishing there was one... nobody wants to just cease cognition forever. It's something that severely disturbs me if I try too hard to imagine it.

On the other hand, I feel very sorry for all those who waste their entire lives on worship of a supreme being from their own imaginations. Like many atheists, I'll concede one point; I could be wrong; there may be a creator. But it's not "God".

95. Comment #7585 by Mal on November 18, 2006 at 9:13 pm

Re: 230

Jeanne Gill, what a kind, compassionate god you describe for us. You must be proud to associate your name with he/she/it.

96. Comment #7586 by Jonathan Dore on November 18, 2006 at 9:14 pm

Jeanne Gill writes: " These people who are "atheist" & claim that there is no God--well, I feel sorry for you because one of these days you will be standing before God & His Son Jesus & explaining your "beliefs" to Him. I would guess that many of you are going to have some mighty hot feet when you are escorted to the elevator with the "down" button, IYKWIM!!!"

On the contrary, Jeanne, it is you who will have hot feet for having not believed in Allah and Mohammed... or is it Vishnu and Shiva? ... or Santa and Rupert the Red-nosed Reindeer? If you think those ideas are just silly, and not even worth a moment's serious consideration, you're not alone. But why would you think your version, with "God and His Son Jesus," would seem any less silly, and any more of a serious possibility, to anyone else?

And attempts to frighten people with threats of hellfire hardly show any great evidence of "love" on god's part. Instead, they tend to suggest desperation and moral bankruptcy -- to put it at its most polite -- rather than a compelling argument.

97. Comment #7587 by Mark Davis on November 18, 2006 at 9:21 pm

"These people who are "atheist" & claim that there is no God--well, I feel sorry for you because one of these days you will be standing before God & His Son Jesus & explaining your "beliefs" to Him. I would guess that many of you are going to have some mighty hot feet when you are escorted to the elevator with the "down" button, IYKWIM!!!"

As you can tell. I'm seriously not frightened of hell. Why would you want anything to do with a God who caused so much suffering over the opaque and unclear way in which he chose to reveal himself? I care about human suffering and think it is wrong. God's unclear way of presenting himself has caused some of the worst suffering in all of human history. If choosing the right intrepretation of the right holy book is the key to heaven then shame on God for setting up such an evil system.

98. Comment #7588 by Frank on November 18, 2006 at 9:22 pm

I am an atheist but I believe in God. Actually, I am a passionate, fervent, devoted agnostic. I have absolute faith in unknowability and confusion.
Let the Jihad begin! God is great!

99. Comment #7592 by bill on November 18, 2006 at 9:26 pm

Hoju got blasted for his or her remarks. But only partly deserved. I too was looking for a comment calling Dawkins on his dogmatic attitude. Hoju has part of it right, he or she just overstated the issue. Let me support part of his or her point.

I too can't declare myself an atheist because I don't really know what that means. I just simply can't buy into religion as I have seen it. I look for what I do believe in, not what I don't.

Dawkins is right to encourage non-believers to stand up. But, Dawkins is not doing science. He is preaching. No different than Gore's effort's to raise ecological consciousness. Sure there is lot's of science cited, but the issue is philosophical because it goes way beyond empirical issues.

I don't believe in the patriarchical god that my catholic background offered me, but on the other hand the big bang came from somewhere. We don't know the real creation story yet.

As Feynman said, "there's plenty of room at the bottom." [to find ultimate causes] and believe you me, there's still plenty of room at the top to try to understand our [human] place in the scheme of things.

100. Comment #7593 by Mal on November 18, 2006 at 9:28 pm

Jeanne Gill

If you have somehow found the attention span to stay with this thread, can you tell me if you agree with the statement "God is perfect"?
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