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Saturday, November 18, 2006 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document I'm an atheist, BUT . . .

by Richard Dawkins

Of all the questions I fielded during the course of my recent book tour, the only ones that really depressed me were those that began "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ." What follows such an opening is nearly always unhelpful, nihilistic or – worse – suffused with a sort of exultant negativity. Notice, by the way, the distinction from another favourite genre: "I used to be an atheist, but . . ." That is one of the oldest tricks in the book, practised by, among many others, C S Lewis, Alister McGrath and Francis Collins. It is designed to gain street cred before the writer starts on about Jesus, and it is amazing how often it works. Look out for it, and be forewarned.

I've noticed five variants of I'm-an-atheist-buttery, and I'll list them in turn, in the hope that others will recognize them, be armed against them, and perhaps extend the list by contributing examples from their own experience.

1. I'm an atheist, but religion is here to stay. You think you can get rid of religion? Good luck to you! You want to get rid of religion? What planet are you living on? Religion is a fixture. Get over it!


I could bear any of these downers, if they were uttered in something approaching a tone of regret or concern. On the contrary. The tone of voice is almost always gleeful, and accompanied by a self-satisfied smirk. Anybody who opens with "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ." can be more or less guaranteed to be one of those religious fellow-travellers who, in Dan Dennett's wickedly perceptive phrase, believes in belief. They may not be religious themselves, but they love the idea that other people are religious. This brings me to my second category of naysayers.

2. I'm an atheist, but people need religion. What are you going to put in its place? How are you going to comfort the bereaved? How are you going to fill the need?


I dealt with this in the last chapter of The God Delusion, 'A Much Needed Gap' and also, at more length, in Unweaving the Rainbow. Here I'll make one additional point. Did you notice the patronizing condescension in the quotations I just listed? You and I, of course, are much too intelligent and well educated to need religion. But ordinary people, hoi polloi, the Orwellian proles, the Huxleian Deltas and Epsilon semi-morons, need religion. Well, I want to cultivate more respect for people than that. I suspect that the only reason many cling to religion is that they have been let down by our educational system and don't understand the options on offer. This is certainly true of most people who think they are creationists. They have simply not been taught the alternative. Probably the same is true of the belittling myth that people 'need' religion. On the contrary, I am tempted to say "I believe in people . . ." And this leads me to the next example.

3. I'm an atheist, but religion is one of the glories of human culture.


At a conference in San Diego which I attended at the end of my book tour, Sam Harris and I were attacked by two "I'm an atheist, but . . ." merchants. One of these quoted Golda Meir when she was asked whether she believed in God: "I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God." Our smirking critic substituted his own version: "I believe in people, and people believe in God."

Religion, he presumably thought, is like a great work of art. Many works of art, rather, because different religions are so varied. I was reminded of Nicholas Humphrey's devastating indictment of an extreme version of this kind of thing, quoted in Chapter 9 of The God Delusion. Humphrey was discussing the discovery in the mountains of Peru of the frozen remains of a young Inca girl who was, according to the archaeologist who found her, the victim of a religious sacrifice. Humphrey described a television documentary in which viewers were invited . . .

" . . . to marvel at the spiritual commitment of the Inca priests and to share with the girl on her last journey her pride and excitement at having been selected for the signal honour of being sacrificed. The message of the television programme was in effect that the practice of human sacrifice was in its own way a glorious cultural invention – another jewel in the crown of multiculturalism . . ."


I share the outrage that Humphrey eloquently expressed: -

"Yet, how dare anyone even suggest this? How dare they invite us – in our sitting rooms, watching television – to feel uplifted by contemplating an act of ritual murder: the murder of a dependent child by a group of stupid, puffed up, superstitious, ignorant old men? How dare they invite us to find good for ourselves in contemplating an immoral action against someone else?"


It would be unfair to accuse our critic in San Diego of complicity in such an odious attitude towards the Inca 'ice maiden'. But I hope at least he will think twice before repeating that bon mot (as he obviously thought of it): "I believe in people, and people believe in God." I could have overlooked the patronizing condescension of his remark, if only he hadn't sounded so smugly satisfied by this lamentable state of affairs.

4. I'm an atheist, but you are only preaching to the choir. What's the point?


There are various points. One is that the choir is a lot bigger than many people think it is, especially in America. But, again especially in America, it is largely a closet choir, and it desperately needs encouragement to come out. Judging by the thanks I received all over North America, the encouragement that people like Sam Harris, Dan Dennett and I are able to give is greatly appreciated. So is this website, as I heard again and again. My thanks, yet again, to Josh.

A more subtle reason for preaching to the choir is the need to raise consciousness. When the feminists raised our consciousness about sexist pronouns, they would have been preaching to the choir where the more substantive issues of the rights of women and the evils of discrimination against them were concerned. But that decent, liberal choir still needed its consciousness raising with respect to everyday language. However right-on we may have been on the political issues of rights and discrimination, we nevertheless still unconsciously bought into linguistic conventions that made half the human race feel excluded.

There are other linguistic conventions that still need to go the same way as sexist pronouns, and the atheist choir is not exempt. We all need our consciousness raised. Atheists as well as theists unconsciously buy into our society's convention that religion has uniquely privileged status. I've already mentioned the convention that we must be especially polite and respectful to a person's faith. And I never tire of drawing attention to society's tacit acceptance that it is right to label small children with the religious opinions of their parents.

That's consciousness-raising, and atheists need it just as much as anybody else because atheists, too, have been lulled into overlooking the anomaly: religious opinion is the one kind of parental opinion that – by almost universal consent – can be battened upon children who are, in truth, too young to know what their opinion really is.

5. I'm an atheist, but I wish to dissociate myself from your intemperately strong language.


Sam Harris and I have both received criticism of this kind, and Nick Humphrey probably has too, for the quotation given above. Yet if you look at the language we employ, it is no more strong or intemperate than anybody would use if criticizing a political or economic point of view: no stronger or more intemperate than any theatre critic, art critic or book critic when writing a negative review. Our language sounds strong and intemperate only because of the same weird convention I have already mentioned, that religious faith is uniquely privileged: above and beyond criticism. On pages 20-21 of The God Delusion I gave a wonderful quote from Douglas Adams on the subject.

Book critics or theatre critics can be derisively negative and earn delighted praise for the trenchant wit of their review. A politician may attack an opponent scathingly across the floor of the House and earn plaudits for his robust pugnacity. But let a critic of religion employ a fraction of the same direct forthrightness, and polite society will purse its lips and shake its head: even secular polite society, and especially that part of secular society that loves to announce, "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ."

Comments 151 - 200 of 274 |

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151. Comment #7896 by Mark Davis on November 19, 2006 at 8:48 pm

Hoju,

I hope my comments do not come off as harsh or offensive. I'm only trying to communicate with clarity about a couple of the points you made.

I understand your questions about some of the incompleteness of Evolution theory. Not all of the gaps are filled in and some of them never will be. But the whole of the theory is based on a mountain of evidence from the past 150 years of our accumulated scientific knowledge verifiable by experiments and field observations performed by literally millions of scientists. All of the evidence gathered in biology, geology, astronomy etc. validate that our Universe is about 14 billion years old, the earth is ~4 billion years old and life began around 2 billion years ago. There are 100,000's of thousands of fossils that have been dated by what is now over a dozen radiometric methods that all paint a clear picture as to the age of our world and how life developed. Learn about how astronomers use different types of telescopes and an understanding of the nature of light to peer back in space 13 billion light years. There are now millions of Journal Articles presenting evidence in support of Evolution in a huge number of disciplines.

Compare this to your source of information. A book written in the Iron Age in which the nature of God and the Universe was revealed to men living in a tiny part of the Middle East 2000 years ago. Why do you believe in the trustworthiness of your books inner revelations versus all the other books that claim to be the authentic word of God?

152. Comment #7918 by walter on November 19, 2006 at 10:50 pm

As religion is essentially 'made up' truth and has been around for thousands of years it logically follows that religion has likely 'evolved' to be the ultimate human 'pacifier'. (i.e. those sects which hold beliefs less popular (don't satisfy human wants as well) tend to 'die off')
If so then the tenacity of religion in modern times should really come as no surprise. We are dealing with a highly evolved set of memes! (highly evolved in the sense that they are popular enough to survive NOT true enough)

153. Comment #7951 by walter on November 20, 2006 at 2:08 am

reply to #7937

"Does it (religion) serve an evolutionary purpose?" ('purpose' interpreted as evolutionary advantage here NOT teleosteric purpose)

Not likely. But it can certainly be said to be a product of evolution. Religion can actually be thought of as a byproduct of intelligence which in turn is a product of evolution. Where no intelligence exists there are no creatures to ponder such questions as "Where do I come from?" or "How did the world I live in get started?".

"Why is it so hard to convince people through basic logic to abandon their irrational belief systems?"

Emotions. Also a product of evolution but probably not limited to hominid evolution. People make a lot of fuss about the role of emotions in evolution but their really isn't a problem when you think it through. For example, why does a father love his daughter? Because the emotion makes him act in ways which benefit the survival of his daughter which contains half of HIS genes. Why does that same father automatically hate any guy that tries to have anything to do with his daughter? Because hating them will drive him to fight them thus insuring that no one can mate with his daughter who is not able to hold his own against the father thus insuring that his grandchildren will be at least as strong as him.
(have good genes for strength, stamina, etc.)

154. Comment #7974 by walter on November 20, 2006 at 3:19 am

reply to 7971
Ha! Ha! Ha! (not sarcastic laughter)

As I understand it even the real Mr. Dawkins usually has someone proofread his material.
I haven't read ALL of his books. Did he really write something similar to that? Darn!

155. Comment #7982 by Ryan on November 20, 2006 at 3:47 am

Nice to see some godlessness in our rock'n'roll, Tuitey.

156. Comment #8033 by Josh on November 20, 2006 at 8:18 am

This reminds me of something a psychologist once told me. "Yes, but" is really "no."

157. Comment #8040 by alphabec on November 20, 2006 at 8:47 am

I'm an athiest and no buts. Bravo Richard!! We don't NEED religion. We are all too often conditioned by society to fear and feel insecure. For too many religion is just a security blanket that keeps them from having to look rationally at life or themselves. Frankly, the instillment of fear is also a useful and beloved coercion tool for religious leaders or vindictive parents.

158. Comment #8060 by maryhelena on November 20, 2006 at 10:09 am

Hi, Barry

I've just seen your post - and I'm pretty sure the comment you quote is not from me!
Perhaps you can give me the post number?

That said....I don't find anything in your post that I would find objectionable.....

If you have been able to read some of my posts to this site, you will find that my position is very similar to yours i.e. religion and science speak to two different aspects of our human nature - and therefore, we need to accomodate them in our world-view - I don't buy into the argument that one must choose between them.

159. Comment #8067 by rationalrevolution on November 20, 2006 at 10:40 am

I'm an atheist, and I completely agree with Dr. Dawkins on this and I see this as, in fact, the biggest challenge of the atheist community. Step #1 is to get the atheist community on track and education about atheism and religion, because I find that most atheists are completely ignorant about history related to atheism and about the realties of religion.

I think that most of the "atheist BUT" group using the "BUT" portion of their thought to justify inaction to themselves. If they can rationalize not fighting against religion this this removes any responsibility from themselves and allows them to happy sit by and the world burns feeling no concern or responsibility.

I think that what "I'm an atheist, BUT..." really means is, "I'm, atheist, but I don't feel like doing anything about it."

Also, some atheists today are like the African American slaves of the past, who were told over and over by their masters how horrible they were and how incapable they were, and how they needed to be slaves, and some of these slaves eventually were so beaten down they they repeated these things, saying "I'm a slave, BUT I need my white massa." Well, that was a lie, and so is the claim that people need religion.

160. Comment #8070 by maryhelena on November 20, 2006 at 10:47 am

maryhelena wrote:

"Well, I certainly think that religion is here to stay. I say this with no gleeful tone or even with a self-satisfied smirk. Nor do I have regret or concern that religion is here to stay. For me, it just is. A fact of life, a fact of the human experience of life. There is not the slightest evidence available upon which one could base the possibility that religion will disappear."

"I strongly disagree there. Look at Ireland; Church attendance is massively reduced, the archaic ban on divorce was removed, and the younger generation is beginning to seriously question the role of religion in society. The difference here is EDUCATION. "

Hi, Franchesca

Perhaps, if you consider the fact that religion is not just about attending church, my position might make some sense. A decline in church attendance says nothing about a decline in religion. For the sake of argument, people can pray in their backyard, in their bedroom - or out in the fresh air. People do not have to go to church to be religious. Being religious is more a sense of life, an approach to life, than sitting on a church bench on a Sunday.

"What about the vastly improved situation in Northern Ireland? Again, the trend for Athiesm and agnosticism among young people has clearly taken the sting out of the conflict (around 10% of the population have completely rejected religion). I don't believe it is a coincidence that 'secterianism' here is increasingly confinde to the more deprived areas, and less well educated of the population."

I know, it's often assumed that education is going to rid the world of religion - but religion is more about an attitude to life than about intellectual premises. So, methinks, while education might well remove the fantasy world of theology, it's not going to be able to remove our inherent disposition for matters of the spirit.

Another point that is perhaps well to keep in mind. Christianity is only a part of world religion. While Christianity, along with the other monotheistic religions, is troubled by it's fundamentalists - there are other forms of religion that are just carrying on….as religion has always just carried on….Indeed, it's good to know that many young people in Ireland are becoming agnostics and atheists - but I think you would find that there are others who give up Christianity only to find some spiritual value in Buddhism or other Eastern religions. Many people, so it seems, still find it attractive to travel to India for enlightenment….

What is good about education is that it allows people to view all religions, not just the one on the home front. Today, one can, as it were, shop around for a religion that suits ones particular taste - or choose the atheist path. That is as it should be. The problem, as I have posted a number of times, is not religion - the problem is social/political structures that seem unable to put up a suitable defense against the encroachment of religious fundamentalists i.e. fundamentalists who strive to make their theology into a political agenda.

161. Comment #8081 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 11:10 am

408

"I think serious criticism of religion should at least be on the table of public discourse."

Why, what would be the point? Which religion should be criticized? Some are more violent in the face of criticism than others.

162. Comment #8085 by maryhelena on November 20, 2006 at 11:32 am

Dear Maryhelena,

I noticed you mentioned monotheistic religions, other beliefs that do not believe in personal God for the sakes of this debate are not though of as religion. The problem of religion is the belief of the supernatural, or having a leader that talks and gets replies from God, the delusion that there is a God and that he is watching.

Hi, Davin

Yes, I know. Dawkins wants to separate Einsteinian religion from - from what - from religion! The good religion and the bad religion - with Dawkins as the judge!. I'm afraid that just does not make sense to me. Dawkins wants to narrow down religion to something that he thinks he can negate. Down goes the bad theistic god and good bye religion! Not only does Dawkins want to separate religion into good and bad religion - he goes further, on page 37 TGD: "And I shall not be concerned at all with other religions such as Buddhism or Confucianism. Indeed, there is something to be said for treating these not as religions at all but as ethical systems or philosophies of life". How convenient…..

163. Comment #8086 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 11:34 am

Hi racoach, are you replying to me? or somebody else?

I totally disagree with public money being diverted to support a superstition, and I am passionately opposed to seeing "Intelligent Design" sold as science in the public schools.

There are some religious people I would like to peacefully cooperate with, and they're the ones who believe that separation of church and state is as vital to their right to believe privately in their homes as it is to my right to non-belief. I don't have a quarrel with them and would just as soon let them be.

#410 to what point?

Free exchange of ideas is beneficial, especially to those who are open to new ideas. And may the best ideas win!!! ;-)

164. Comment #8093 by Mr Blue Sky on November 20, 2006 at 11:52 am

Thankyou for accepting me into the Choir without the need for audition, I know some of the words and the tunes and hope we can all sing loudly, proudly and in tune until the choir is heard throughout the world and is sought after for public engagements to entertaqin the masses!

165. Comment #8097 by Michael on November 20, 2006 at 12:03 pm

" I'm an atheist, but religion is here to stay. You think you can get rid of religion? Good luck to you!"

The above statement may turn out to be true, but not b/c we can't exist (and much better) w/o religion. However, the distinction between religion and why mankind felt the need to invent it in the first place seems to be missing from Atheistic writings (at least from what I've read). When faced with an insecurity, we have three ways to resolve it: 1) get rid of it – build a fire at the cave opening so we're not afraid a saber tooth tiger will eat us in our sleep 2) Ignore it and remain insecure 3) Create a perception within ourselves that the insecurity is taken care of, and therefore no longer a threat (ie: make cave paintings to the animals you depend on, develop delusions and hallucinations, wait for the mother ship, start a religion!).

While religion may not be here to stay, the underlying need that gave rise to religion as a coping mechanism against a virtually species-level insecurity (which will never be eradicated unless we become omnipotent), will always be present. So, the real question in my mind is how to sooth the insecurities of the savage beast in terms of the rationality of the noble savage. But, we continue to see ourselves as separate from nature, and delude ourselves into believing that we control our instincts, the same basic instincts that all other animals have and don't/can't control (btw, IMHO, the delusion that we control our instincts is just part of a larger belief that we control nature, which is one way we try to achieve number three above). Until we face the reality that we must acknowledge and deal with our instincts, not deny them, we will always have the same need on a species level as any individual psychotic; well-developed denial and coping mechanisms that allow us to construct reality in a way we perceive as non-threatening. Hence, religious delusion. But… we all know there are better answers.

166. Comment #8114 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 12:46 pm

420. Comment #8105 by Phlogiston on November 20, 2006 at 12:22 pm


"I don't think I would be going out on a limb to say that atheists also believe killing, rape, stealing, incest, downloading illegal music, etc... are, and always should be, illegal. "

What is the basis for this? If natural selection were to be the basis, then those with stronger survival genetics would be fully within their rights to take from those with weaker ones. What is wrong with rape, it is simply a method of passing on one's genetic code ensuring it's survival.

"Why do we need to prove that he exists? The onus lies with the believers to prove why I should give them 10% of my income and do as they say without question."


421

What is the point of setting up a straw man? No one insists that you give your money away to a church. The theist claims there is a god (x) the atheist claims there is no god (not x), why is it on the theist to prove x?

Many Christians I know believe that for God to reveal himself such that faith is no longer an issue then man would no longer have free will to believe. They do not try and prove God exists they just have faith that he does. The only difference is you have faith he doesn't.

If the atheist is to prove his is not just faith then the onus of proof is on the atheist.

167. Comment #8122 by Zod on November 20, 2006 at 1:13 pm

426
"Societies have a need for order to survive. There is no evidence that one needs religion to create laws"

All of this is quite true. Isn't the theists point, though, that although one can create laws without God ie an Absolute one can't argue there necesary. If laws/morality are the creation of man who is finite and changing then morality itself is finite and changing. Therefore, one is left without an objective basis on which to assert rape, child abuse, and murder are inherently, absolutely wrong

168. Comment #8127 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 1:23 pm

426. Comment #8119 by Phlogiston on November 20, 2006 at 12:58 pm

Dictatorships have a tendency to establish order. Under an Atheist system there would be no "All men are created equal" and in fact genetics would prove that to be not true. An Atheist based system would likely be fascist and very much elitist. With no such thing as men are equal slavery would likely result.

425

"The onus is on the theist to prove that god exists because, well, skepticism is the default position. And unless you think it isn't, why don't you believe that every other god exists beside your own?"

I personally don't have a "god", I don't think the existence is provable one way or the other. I just think it is disingenuous for the Atheist to claim his is a rational belief but not be expected to prove it's true. I guess from your perspective it's just a matter of faith.

169. Comment #8139 by edward on November 20, 2006 at 1:48 pm

430
HMMM Surely you've ignored the 2nd law which states that though the energy can be transformed from one form to another yet the amount available for use is constantly decreasing. So the total amount remains the same but the amount for use is getting less. That would imply that either the universe came into existence FROM NOTHING with all its total energy available for use OR it was CREATED with all its energy. its hard to argue that second option is less reasonable than the first

170. Comment #8145 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 2:00 pm

433
"First, there is no such thing as an atheist (please, don't capitalise that) based system."

The former USSR, China, Cuba, North Korea, others?

171. Comment #8146 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 2:05 pm

"What if I demanded that you prove you "faith" that the flying spaghetti monster does not exist? "

Actually I could probably prove it does.

1. Boil some spaghetti.
2. Add some heated marinara
3. Throw the mixture in the air aim toward an atheist

That would be simply monstrous.

Yours is faith nothing more as you admit you cannot prove it.

172. Comment #8162 by Jiten on November 20, 2006 at 2:43 pm

maryhelena seems to have wilfully misread what Dawkins wrote in TGD.He drrew a distinction between an Einsteinian god and the god as a personal god,one who answers prayers etc.,and nothing about Einsteinian religon and "ordinary" religon.

Please go back to the book and read what is actually written and not what you want to read.

173. Comment #8165 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 2:47 pm

Oooops,

1800's and early 1900's.

174. Comment #8170 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 2:58 pm

curious said:
"All y'all Atheists don't really have to prove your position, but by not doing so you are just relying on faith. So I guess we can agree your belief is faith based."

Boy, do you guys love putting not believing in god in the same category as believing in him.

By your logic, I must take it on faith that there aren't big, pink tarantulas crawling up my nose. In that sense, I suppose, atheism is a faith based position as much as apinktarantulism is. However, since there is no way to prove or disprove pinktarantulism -- they cannot be measured, they can't be detected by any means -- then saying that apinktarantulism is a faith based position is about as meaningful as saying that baseballs are platitudinous.

175. Comment #8216 by DingoDave on November 20, 2006 at 4:27 pm

In Comment 8157 Asterix wrote: "God bless ;-)"

Which god are you commanding to bless us Asterix?
Chemosh?, Shiva?, Brahma?, Hanuman? Ganesha?, Ahura Mazda?, Marduk?, Nergal?, Kali?, Zeus?, Osiris?, Isis?, Odin?, Lord Hadad?, Mithra?, Father El?, Serapis?, Dionisis?, Orpheus?, Amun?, Ra?, Wotan?, Loki?, Allah?, Yahweh?, Quetzalcoatl?, the Rainbow Serpent? - The list goes on, and on, and on.
And those were just the ones I could think of off the top of my head.

I'm guessing that you were invoking Yahweh, but I don't want to appear presumptuous.

Could you be more specific please, so that I know which one to thank if I do happen to feel that I have been blessed in some way?

176. Comment #8221 by Chris on November 20, 2006 at 4:38 pm

Proove God does not exist?

To me it happens everytime religions change their attitudes to fit in with current scientific trends. First you fight it.. eg. The killing of Copernicus. Then when you realise that you can longer fight it, you try and absorb it. It's quite silly really.

Re: Morals.. I believe that morals are the creation of evolution. Morals develop to suit the races needs for survival in the relevant time.. With abortion for example.. it may have been immoral once to abort because the worlds population needed to sustain/attain certain numbers to remain on top of the food chain and/or to avoid extinction. This moral now is changing now as we are dangerously close to the line, if not well over the line, of over-population. We have also reached a stage where there is a greater number of people not fit to parent or to pass on their genes.

177. Comment #8277 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 7:46 pm

I'll prove my position.

Either God exisists or he does not.

X+(not X)=true

If an atheist cannot prove his position then it is simply faith. QED

178. Comment #8295 by walter on November 20, 2006 at 8:31 pm

reply to comment #8059
"The best way to "solve" a problem meme is to "nurture" its evolution in the right direction."

Not a bad idea at all!
Certainly easier than trying to 'hunt' it to extinction as the host of our show advocates.

179. Comment #8298 by stardust on November 20, 2006 at 8:38 pm

Dawkins gives himself the airs of the emperor who wore no clothes. I get disgusted when atheists such as Dawkins use religious terms such as "immoral". If you are going to be an atheist and puff yourself up as a "great mind" at least be consistent with your philosophy. There can be no "evil" or "immoral" actions against people. There is no ultimate purpose and there are no moral standards in this life according to atheism. Be consistent!!! Anything should be acceptable because we are basically machines that have evolved from nothing. Act like one, don't get so outraged over murder. Murder cannot be wrong as there is no right or wrong with atheism, right:)!!! Oh, and one other thing, how does science explain something from nothing? Sounds like a fairy tale to me.

180. Comment #8306 by walter on November 20, 2006 at 8:54 pm

reply to #8117
"It (natural selection) is descriptive not prescriptive."

Quite right! AND it is noteworthy just how few people make this distinction. This is what I meant in a previous post when I wrote that fascism is what you get when you teach evolution to dummies. If God is to be eventually eliminated from modern culture then it is important that the public perception of nature NOT be what it is today. (a disney movie)

181. Comment #8314 by walter on November 20, 2006 at 9:04 pm

Hi Walter

Dawkins wrote "The Selfish Gene" and this was also misinterpreted by far right groups as justifying fascism. However their assumption was unsurprisingly incorrect, as it does not take into account mutually beneficial relationships that would be classed as moral or ethical at the time. I hope this answers your query.

182. Comment #8315 by Anonymous on November 20, 2006 at 9:10 pm

stardust (#476) said:
"Dawkins gives himself the airs of the emperor who wore no clothes. I get disgusted when atheists such as Dawkins use religious terms such as "immoral". If you are going to be an atheist and puff yourself up as a "great mind" at least be consistent with your philosophy. There can be no "evil" or "immoral" actions against people. There is no ultimate purpose and there are no moral standards in this life according to atheism. Be consistent!!! Anything should be acceptable because we are basically machines that have evolved from nothing. Act like one, don't get so outraged over murder. Murder cannot be wrong as there is no right or wrong with atheism, right:)!!! Oh, and one other thing, how does science explain something from nothing? Sounds like a fairy tale to me."

How do you explain where morality comes from, stardust? The bible, which is a mass of violence, murder, rape, genocide, and slavery? This is why morality is not inconsistent with atheism: morality is prescribed behavior, not the worship of supernatural power.

Religious morality is far inferior to atheist morality. Atheist morality is absolute, while religious morality demands that you be in a certain place in a certain time (in a culture, while the religion is predominant) to be moral.

183. Comment #8320 by walter on November 20, 2006 at 9:30 pm

reply to #8298 stardust
"Their is no ultimate purpose and their are no moral standards in this life according to atheism."

I definitely agree with the first half of this statement. The second half is a bit more problematic. It's interesting. Can a PURELY secular society have a moral code? I guess we are all so used to thinking in terms of right and wrong that we take the source for granted.
But what IS that source? Did God give us morals? Or was it the other way around? Did morals (altogether from ANOTHER more anthropological source) give us God?

184. Comment #8324 by Byron on November 20, 2006 at 9:35 pm

I'm not an athiest, but you do use the word 'smirk' a lot.

As he smirks and shows himself to the door ;-)

185. Comment #8332 by walter on November 20, 2006 at 10:10 pm

reply to #8323 Devin
"I am so glad to have the chance to air my opinions on this board! One has few opportunities to express such thoughts here amidst the corn in Iowa."

Or amidst the corn in Kentucky for that matter.

186. Comment #8337 by walter on November 20, 2006 at 10:52 pm

reply to #8314
I guess the point I was tring to make had to do with the fact that those far right groups had made that erroneous assumption to begin with. Had they been a little brighter they would not have come to the conclusion they did.
Perception is everything. Why, for example, is the process of magnetic resonance imaging (MRI) not colloquially referred to as NUCLEAR magnetic resonance imaging (NMRI)?

187. Comment #8340 by Byron on November 20, 2006 at 11:24 pm

Wow! This is a totally intriguing microcosm of infidelity!

Sorry for this really long post...good luck getting through it!

I particularly like the atheist's comment who said, "I'm an atheist but I prefer to 'dwell (or something like that)' on what I do believe in." I'm not an atheist, but I can respect that kind of attitude.

It seems to me that evangelical atheists are bitter about the idea of God (sorry if I'm generalizing, but this forum post has been my only view into that world), otherwise why are they so passionate about persuading people to not believe in God (e.g. Mr. Dawkins' desolation at hearing people say: I'm an atheist, but religion is here to stay...see his #1 above)? In general when people are on a crusade, they try to get people to believe IN something versus NOT believe in something. Like the atheist whose comments I mentioned above, it's refreshing to hear someone talk about what they do believe in instead of what they do not...though I can hear Mr. Dawkins' disciples murmuring that belief is irrelevant...but this too is a belief, just one that has become a verity in the mind of the believer. Sorry for the digression, it's just that writing to you guys is like writing to onions...of course, writing to us is like writing to rocks...am I right???

So, back to my original question...Why the fervor for stamping out the idea of God?

Before I ask for your personal reasons, I'll give some disclosure on my position:
Christ said that the world hates Him, and though I cannot quote a chapter and verse, there does seem to be a lot of hints as to why spread throughout the Bible: 1) God imposes the idea of good and evil, light and dark, etc, with the logical conclusion that there are some things you just can't do and be in good with God; 2) Christ made the claim that He was God (a claim that I believe), this one certainly upset a few folks at the time, and probably has the same effect today; 3) Christ does ask that we give up our lives for him and put him in the driver's seat; and many others.

Here are some of my thoughts as to why an atheist may feel need to evangelize people to atheism:

1) They are filled with joy and wonder at the thought that there is no God, no heaven, and no hell, that, out of some aberrantly evolved unselfish instinct, they want to share their joy with others (but wouldn't it be easier to use chemistry and just buy the world a toke?)

2) They feel great pity in the stupidity of "religious" people, and, out of some magnanimous aberration of evolution, want to pull their fellow man out of the darkness of superstition and deistic delusionment

3) Somewhere lodged in their id, they actually believe there is a God, and like a man who hates his father because he doesn't feel loved, wants to hurt him. So, how do you hurt God? By hurting his children...it's really how you cut anybody the deepest, thanks in no small part to evolution

4) Basically, somebody needs to save the world from religious people. While it is not as painfully obvious to me, there are people who ascribe all the ills of the world to religion and give religion no credit for any of the good...much in the same way there are religious people who say the infidels are to blame for all the bad stuff. These atheists might wonder why evolution let them down and let the world get so full of religious idiots. (Similar to #2, but the motivation is different)

5) They might have been hurt by a religious person or church, and either are seeking revenge or want to prevent this from happening to others.

I do not include a passion for science and reason as a possible explanation for trying to convince people there is no God. As the commentor I am so enamored with stated, you can dwell on the good that is in Science and Reason without feeling desolated when someone believes in God. It is the difference between evangelizing people to believe in the benefits of scientific discovery versus trying to convince them not to believe in God.

So, I finally ask, if you don't believe in God, why do you care that other people do? (Please don't turn the question around, Christians actually do have a commandment to go into the world evangelizing (Matthew 28:18), it's in red letters and everything.)

Regards,
Byron

188. Comment #8348 by walter on November 21, 2006 at 12:30 am

reply to #8340 Byron
"-if you don't believe in God, why do you care that other people do?"

Dunno!
Guess we just don't like the idea of living in a world made up mainly of ignorant and superstitious people.
Or... perhaps us atheists really are the tools of the devil you've long suspected us to be! HA! HA! HA! HA! HA! (evil 'satanic' laughter)

189. Comment #8368 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 3:30 am

493
"Believers........[live] in a parallel universe where truth is not important"

Not so. In fact its only believers who can subscribe to the notion that truth can be known.
Charles Darwin wrote, "With me the horrid doubt always arises whether the convictions of mans mind, which has been developed from the mind of the lower animals, are of any value or at all trustworthy".

Since mans mind is the product of millions of random errors and his thoughts are nothing more than chemical processes it would seem that the naturalist has no basis for truth

190. Comment #8377 by Nod on November 21, 2006 at 4:10 am

Im an atheist. I feel myself alone in the dark. I wish there were a God. Something I could lean on. But there is nobody out there, and there is no turning home.

L.

191. Comment #8414 by George on November 21, 2006 at 7:07 am

To practice the "religion" to be found, do the following:
1. Download and print out either the theist or atheist page.
2. Put it on your fridge.
3. Read it every day and do what it says to the best of your ability.
4. Tell someone about it.

192. Comment #8421 by Linda on November 21, 2006 at 7:24 am

I'm an atheist BUT... my husband is a Christian. However, of course, while he's allowed to play his Xtian music and hang a cross in the window, I have to stay quiet or else be accused of sabotaging his faith. *sigh*. However, in the few conversations we've had, the appeal of his religion (for him) has become very apparent to me. It's the warm, cuddly, Holly Hobby aspect, the "everything IS going to be all right," the comfort you had when you were a kid and mom and dad paid your bills and provided for everything.
Religion is people's attempt to get back to that child-like state of mind where they feel someone (now Jesus) is paying their bills and taking care of them. Lack of maturity? Sure. But it does have its appeal, the same appeal that winning the lottery and not having to ever worry about work or bills has.
This new push for atheism is excellent, BUT if you want to attract modern Xtians, atheism as a movement needs to provide something positive, not just be an institution that stands against something (religion). We need to be FOR something - and science doesn't cut it. It's cold, clinical and ever changing (which is fine by me, but it doesn't take the place of a pastel Hummel Jesus). Reality doesn't cut it (at first) because most people feel threatened and overwhelmed by reality, especially by the reality of their mortality.
Atheism needs some chintz and gingerbread, LOL - I'm laughing, but I'm actually quite serious. THe American Atheists should hire an advertising firm to create some catch phrases that rival those batted around by Xtians - Jesus is Love, God only gives you what you can handle, etc. These Hallmarkisms are extremely appealing to people overwhelmed by modern society who yearn to get back to something simple - a great appeal of religion.
I'm not suggesting atheists become Hallmarxists, as I call Xtians (especially televangelists raking in $$ in the Jesus Industry), but I feel strongly we need to project a more welcoming image. I Believe in You bumperstickers, perhaps? A Welcome Home movement for disenfranchised believers?
We also need something to counteract Santa Clausism -- that childlike appeal of Xtianity that if I'm a good boy or girl, I get the gift of heaven. Another poster mentioned he was uncomfortable with the notion of just being dead and not going on. To me, this notion is supreme hubris and self-importance- the idea that I'm so important I can't possibly just go away! Imagine! LOL Yet what can atheism offer to overcome Santa Clausism? Perhaps a "circle of life" notion that our immortality comes in the form of the good we do in this lifetime and in the children we leave behind? That's the reality - we need to phrase it in an appealing manner to ease ex-religionists into acceptance.
If we are serious about attracting new people to atheism, I believe we need to take a serious look at what makes religion so appealing and come up with some pro-atheist equivalents, or else it'll be back in the closet with us.
Just my thoughts on the matter.

193. Comment #8422 by George on November 21, 2006 at 7:24 am

I thought the website I was referring to would appear here: http://churchoftheonemiracle.org

194. Comment #8441 by rationalrevolution on November 21, 2006 at 8:44 am

Re post 405:

"I know people who's lives were a complete mess, a downward spiral of drugs and alcohol. They found help in faith. One could argue they needed faith and structure to help pull their lives together."

This is a completely bogus rationalization for religion, and another example of the "atheist but" phenomenon that Dr. Dawkins is talking about.

#1) Are you assuming that nothing but this religious based faith can help people?

#2) Are you arguing that we keep our world upside down, have a political system that is manipulated by appeals to 3,000 year old nonsense, and have a majority of people who fundamentally don't understand how the world works, in order to help a few drug addicts?

#3) You completely leave out the fact that religions in America are also a major factor in the development and perpetuation of addiction problems, and that they indeed are getting in the way of cures to these problems.

Did you know that religious organizations have actually been raising money and opposing research and development of anti-addiction drugs?

Did you know that Rudolph Guiliani as Mayor of New York opposed methadone clinics on basically religious grounds because he thought that people who use drugs should suffer their addictions as punishment for their sins?

Did you know that AA drastically over-reports their "recovery rate" and lies about their program in order to pump up the stats and make themselves look more effective, when in reality the success rate for AA is no better than people who use other non-religious programs.

Did you know that right now, as we speak, scientists are working on, and trying to bring to market, major new classes of drugs that completely cure addiction by resetting the elements of the brain that have "learned" to be addicted to the chemicals in question, and that religious groups oppose the use of these drugs.

Even if these other things were not the case, the idea that we should keep religion around as an "addition treatment" is such a load of crap. You can't just use religion like a surgical tool. Its something that neither you, nor anyone else, can control and it requires the buy-in of the society as a whole in order to be effective.

You are proposing that we keep society as a whole brainwashed and delusional just to help a fraction of 1% of people who have addiction problems, which, in reality can be treated much better with other means.

Yes, I am sure that religion has helped some people move away from drug and alcohol abuse, and has helped some people make other positive changes in their lives. I think that we all know that this is true. But we also all know that these people really did this on their own, there isn't some sky daddy making it happen, and this is something that people are capable of doing with or without religion. Furthermore, the real rates of relapse for people who make these "changes on faith" is no different from people who don't make these changes "on faith". A lot of these people stick to it for a while, then go right back eventually.

195. Comment #8444 by island on November 21, 2006 at 8:51 am

Torbjörn Larsson said the following about Paul Davies:
So he is at the very least a pantheist.

Davies has made numerous statements since he played diplomat to the people at templeton who fund his research almost 12 years ago, and I do not blame him for taking this money from them, since nobody else will. I don't see how "god" can be anywhere in his belief system, since he holds to a Wheeler-like interpretation of backwards causation:

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2092-2393412_1,00.html
Anyone expecting Davies to recant his non-religious views and join the intelligent design lobby will be disappointed. "We can't dump all this in the lap of an arbitrary god and say we can't inquire any further," he says. "The universe looks ingenious, it looks like a fix, and words like meaning and purpose come to mind. But it doesn't mean that we're going to have a miracle-working cosmic magician meddling with events."

Paul Davies goes a long way towards suggesting that he believes the creation of life to be somehow the 'goal' of the universe without suggesting that it is the work of a higher intelligence or God. That is to say he tends towards the belief that the principle of life 'builds purpose into the workings of the cosmos at a fundamental (rather than an incidental) level, without positing an unexplained pre-existing purposive agent to inject purpose miraculously.' This belief is his tentative solution to the 'Goldilocks Enigma', the 'reason' why planets such as our own are 'not too hot and not too cold but just right'. Davies is prepared to let this sense of purpose remain unexplained, but to propose that the universe is somehow geared toward its own understanding, because only 'self-consistent loops capable of understanding themselves can create for themselves, so that only universes with (at least the potential for) life really exist'.


Torbjörn Larsson said:
"Purpose" is folk psychology, convenient to describe us as social or evolutionary agents but without any observable physical definition.

If the action of the universe is made toward a definable "goal" then there is purpose in nature, and you do not *know* and cannot prove that this is not the case.

A teleological universe where deterministic quantum mechanics and Laplace's demon include a real need for intelligent life to arise to satisfy a simple physicsl need.

Let's put it this way... I believe the opposite of whatever it is that uncertainty following chaos whorshipers *believe in*, but I know that it's just thermodynaics. I believe that I have very good reason to believe that we are not here by accident, nor are we here by any form of intelligent design, so whatever you want to call that... floats my boat just fine.

FINAL Cause... intrinsic finality... whatever

196. Comment #8448 by rationalrevolution on November 21, 2006 at 9:07 am

The reality is that religions are like cigarettes. No one is born needing cigarettes, just like no one is born needing religion.

People become addicted to religion upon repeated exposure, just like they do to cigarettes, but people who are never exposed to religion are not missing anything any more than people who never smoke a cigarette never have a craving for them.

Some people will disagree, and say that they know people who weren't raised with religion, but they felt like they were missing something, and then sought out religion.

This is no different from someone who is raised in a non-smoking house and is then affected by advertising to be drawn into smoking because they think they are missing out on something.

The fact is that this whole issue would go away if the religious ideas stopped being transmitted. It is only the transmission of these ideas that perpetuates the problem, it is NOT anything inherent in human nature that creates this problem.

Yes, "atheism" alone is empty, it provides nothing, but "atheism", is not the point. "Atheism" just allows for the acceptance of other rational worldviews, which is what has to be cultivated and made a part of our society.

The problem that we have today is that while secular institutions don't provide a religious worldview, they also don't provide any other worldview either. They provide nothing and leave a void, which is why in our societies some people who are raised without religion do feel that they need "something else".

What people do need is a framework for understanding the world, and right now, in America at least, our society and our public schools don't provide that.

We don't teach secular humanism in schools, we don't teach ethics in schools we don't teach philosophical naturalism in schools, we don't provide any kind of rational framework to young people, who need some way to organize the world and make sense of it.

Religion is one such system, which is itself man made, but there are also non-religious worldviews as well. What people need is a framework that makes sense of the world.

That framework doesn't have to be religion, and in fact, as many ex-religious people will tell you, rational naturalistic frameworks are really much more satisfying, because then there is truly harmony between the worldview and the real world, instead a worldview that is at odds with the real world, which a person then has to continually justify to themselves.

Psychology shows that harmony between expectations and reality is one of the greatest reducers of stress and providers of satisfaction of anything, and that, ultimately, is what a science based naturalistic worldview provides.

197. Comment #8458 by Homer on November 21, 2006 at 9:57 am

"Mmmmm, buttery atheists."

--------------------------

I'm an atheist, but, religion is here to stay, just like fairy tales, myths, alcoholism, war, conflict, donuts (mmmm, donuts), obesity, hunger, natural disasters, man-made disasters...

There are always going to be "good" and "bad" things in the universe. Religion is no different.

While I applaud what Dr. Dawkins does and agree with what he is all about, I prefer to think that the goal of "eradicating" religion is neither attainable nor desirable.

I do, however, hope that we can at least mitigate the damage it does, but I have no problems with leaving the rather benign aspects of it alone. (I know, the "benign" aspects are relative, b--...)

Kind of like how criminalizing certain behaviors of drunken people works (pretty well) while complete alcohol prohibition doesn't. I'm not advocating criminalizing the religious, I just feel we need to be careful in "proselytizing" for our side so as not to alienate people.

It will take time (a LOT of time), but eventually religion will fade further into the background and be considered as "out" as Apartheid or Phrenology.

198. Comment #8466 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 10:45 am

Curious, there is no positive evidence for a god. Disbelief until proven otherwise is the only sensible position. That is still true regardless of your personal view of the alternatives (which are at least testable) The burden of proof most definately is on you. Or do you blindly follow the spagetii monster?

199. Comment #8474 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 11:01 am

516. Comment #8466 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 10:45 am
I can trivially prove my position.

Theorem

Either God exists or God does not exist

Proof:

Let G=God exists
Let not G=not God exists

G+not(G)=True

Therefore my position is true.

Now as my grand pappy used to say either sh*t or get off the pot. Admit atheism is a faith or prove it's true.

200. Comment #8478 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 11:07 am

Anonymous (presumably curious)
What shit is that? Now REALLY prove theism is true or shut up. What evidence do you have for your beliefs. Atheism is only faith in the sense that we dont believe in chocolate teapot demons. Quite different from belief in a creator really (and there are so many wrong ones to choose from as well)

BTW Pi=iCRT therefore you are wrong!
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