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Saturday, November 18, 2006 | Reason : Science of Religion | print version Print | Comments

Document I'm an atheist, BUT . . .

by Richard Dawkins

Of all the questions I fielded during the course of my recent book tour, the only ones that really depressed me were those that began "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ." What follows such an opening is nearly always unhelpful, nihilistic or – worse – suffused with a sort of exultant negativity. Notice, by the way, the distinction from another favourite genre: "I used to be an atheist, but . . ." That is one of the oldest tricks in the book, practised by, among many others, C S Lewis, Alister McGrath and Francis Collins. It is designed to gain street cred before the writer starts on about Jesus, and it is amazing how often it works. Look out for it, and be forewarned.

I've noticed five variants of I'm-an-atheist-buttery, and I'll list them in turn, in the hope that others will recognize them, be armed against them, and perhaps extend the list by contributing examples from their own experience.

1. I'm an atheist, but religion is here to stay. You think you can get rid of religion? Good luck to you! You want to get rid of religion? What planet are you living on? Religion is a fixture. Get over it!


I could bear any of these downers, if they were uttered in something approaching a tone of regret or concern. On the contrary. The tone of voice is almost always gleeful, and accompanied by a self-satisfied smirk. Anybody who opens with "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ." can be more or less guaranteed to be one of those religious fellow-travellers who, in Dan Dennett's wickedly perceptive phrase, believes in belief. They may not be religious themselves, but they love the idea that other people are religious. This brings me to my second category of naysayers.

2. I'm an atheist, but people need religion. What are you going to put in its place? How are you going to comfort the bereaved? How are you going to fill the need?


I dealt with this in the last chapter of The God Delusion, 'A Much Needed Gap' and also, at more length, in Unweaving the Rainbow. Here I'll make one additional point. Did you notice the patronizing condescension in the quotations I just listed? You and I, of course, are much too intelligent and well educated to need religion. But ordinary people, hoi polloi, the Orwellian proles, the Huxleian Deltas and Epsilon semi-morons, need religion. Well, I want to cultivate more respect for people than that. I suspect that the only reason many cling to religion is that they have been let down by our educational system and don't understand the options on offer. This is certainly true of most people who think they are creationists. They have simply not been taught the alternative. Probably the same is true of the belittling myth that people 'need' religion. On the contrary, I am tempted to say "I believe in people . . ." And this leads me to the next example.

3. I'm an atheist, but religion is one of the glories of human culture.


At a conference in San Diego which I attended at the end of my book tour, Sam Harris and I were attacked by two "I'm an atheist, but . . ." merchants. One of these quoted Golda Meir when she was asked whether she believed in God: "I believe in the Jewish people, and the Jewish people believe in God." Our smirking critic substituted his own version: "I believe in people, and people believe in God."

Religion, he presumably thought, is like a great work of art. Many works of art, rather, because different religions are so varied. I was reminded of Nicholas Humphrey's devastating indictment of an extreme version of this kind of thing, quoted in Chapter 9 of The God Delusion. Humphrey was discussing the discovery in the mountains of Peru of the frozen remains of a young Inca girl who was, according to the archaeologist who found her, the victim of a religious sacrifice. Humphrey described a television documentary in which viewers were invited . . .

" . . . to marvel at the spiritual commitment of the Inca priests and to share with the girl on her last journey her pride and excitement at having been selected for the signal honour of being sacrificed. The message of the television programme was in effect that the practice of human sacrifice was in its own way a glorious cultural invention – another jewel in the crown of multiculturalism . . ."


I share the outrage that Humphrey eloquently expressed: -

"Yet, how dare anyone even suggest this? How dare they invite us – in our sitting rooms, watching television – to feel uplifted by contemplating an act of ritual murder: the murder of a dependent child by a group of stupid, puffed up, superstitious, ignorant old men? How dare they invite us to find good for ourselves in contemplating an immoral action against someone else?"


It would be unfair to accuse our critic in San Diego of complicity in such an odious attitude towards the Inca 'ice maiden'. But I hope at least he will think twice before repeating that bon mot (as he obviously thought of it): "I believe in people, and people believe in God." I could have overlooked the patronizing condescension of his remark, if only he hadn't sounded so smugly satisfied by this lamentable state of affairs.

4. I'm an atheist, but you are only preaching to the choir. What's the point?


There are various points. One is that the choir is a lot bigger than many people think it is, especially in America. But, again especially in America, it is largely a closet choir, and it desperately needs encouragement to come out. Judging by the thanks I received all over North America, the encouragement that people like Sam Harris, Dan Dennett and I are able to give is greatly appreciated. So is this website, as I heard again and again. My thanks, yet again, to Josh.

A more subtle reason for preaching to the choir is the need to raise consciousness. When the feminists raised our consciousness about sexist pronouns, they would have been preaching to the choir where the more substantive issues of the rights of women and the evils of discrimination against them were concerned. But that decent, liberal choir still needed its consciousness raising with respect to everyday language. However right-on we may have been on the political issues of rights and discrimination, we nevertheless still unconsciously bought into linguistic conventions that made half the human race feel excluded.

There are other linguistic conventions that still need to go the same way as sexist pronouns, and the atheist choir is not exempt. We all need our consciousness raised. Atheists as well as theists unconsciously buy into our society's convention that religion has uniquely privileged status. I've already mentioned the convention that we must be especially polite and respectful to a person's faith. And I never tire of drawing attention to society's tacit acceptance that it is right to label small children with the religious opinions of their parents.

That's consciousness-raising, and atheists need it just as much as anybody else because atheists, too, have been lulled into overlooking the anomaly: religious opinion is the one kind of parental opinion that – by almost universal consent – can be battened upon children who are, in truth, too young to know what their opinion really is.

5. I'm an atheist, but I wish to dissociate myself from your intemperately strong language.


Sam Harris and I have both received criticism of this kind, and Nick Humphrey probably has too, for the quotation given above. Yet if you look at the language we employ, it is no more strong or intemperate than anybody would use if criticizing a political or economic point of view: no stronger or more intemperate than any theatre critic, art critic or book critic when writing a negative review. Our language sounds strong and intemperate only because of the same weird convention I have already mentioned, that religious faith is uniquely privileged: above and beyond criticism. On pages 20-21 of The God Delusion I gave a wonderful quote from Douglas Adams on the subject.

Book critics or theatre critics can be derisively negative and earn delighted praise for the trenchant wit of their review. A politician may attack an opponent scathingly across the floor of the House and earn plaudits for his robust pugnacity. But let a critic of religion employ a fraction of the same direct forthrightness, and polite society will purse its lips and shake its head: even secular polite society, and especially that part of secular society that loves to announce, "I'm an atheist, BUT . . ."

Comments 201 - 250 of 273 |

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201. Comment #8480 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 11:12 am

519. Comment #8476 by asdf on November 21, 2006 at 11:03 am

My God are you educationally deprived? You make the assertion not(G). I agree if one makes an assertion one should at least attempt to prove it. I am proudly agnostic and proved it's validity now prove yours.

202. Comment #8482 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 11:19 am

Just did, but dont need to considwe a gods that there is no evidence for, or would you like to prove the chocholate demon is incorrect.
Educationally deprived - ha! if only you knew!

good by mr strange logic

203. Comment #8483 by DingoDave on November 21, 2006 at 11:23 am

In Comment #8474 Anonymous Wrote:
"Now as my grand pappy used to say either sh*t or get off the pot. Admit atheism is a faith or prove it's true."

Dear Anonymous,
Either admit that Zeus is your Lord and Sovereign, or prove that it isn't true.

204. Comment #8488 by Linda on November 21, 2006 at 11:37 am

Re: Comment 8429

My concern is that atheism is going to end up as a mood in search of a movement, as was said of 60's radicalism - many good ideas, but no cohesive center.
I think we need to stop looking at Xtianity as a religion and begin to look at it as a business, which is what it has become. "Jesus Saves," "Pray for Peace," "Saved!" etc. are advertising slogans, as recognizable as "It's the real thing," or "Good to the last drop." Modern day religionists understand their product (Jesus) and have learned to package it and promote it to their target market. This is a multi-billion dollar, tax-free industry. We are like a new burger chain trying to break the McDonald's grip on the market, and promoting ourselves with our own arsenal of slogans and campaigns is not unthinkable.
Or look at it this way: What we are trying to do as atheists is the equivalent of turning Red Sox fans into Yankees fans. Why are people Red Sox fans? Because they're born in Massachusetts. Because their family are Red Sox fans. Because there was one player they admired years ago. Not usually logical reasons. But try to turn a Red Sox fan into a Yankees fan, and forget it! Even when the Red Sox are losing, their fans just get more rabid. This is the same mentality we're dealing with when we address xtians. They call themselves xtian for much the same reason: they were born into it, it's the family religion, etc. Ask most Protestants the history of Protestantism and they'll give you a blank look. Most xtians don't even understand what they're committing to. I believe more atheists have read the bible than xtians. Yet, the reality is the more we tell them "no," the more rabidly they're going to defend their "team."
Another example: When I was in high school, I remember watching a dreadful little film about psychologists conducting tests on baby monkeys to prove their attachment to their mothers. They nursed the babies through wire frames they called "wire mothers," and the baby monkeys learned to cling to these wire frames for all their maternal needs. Even when later the good doctors electrified the wire mothers, covered them with spikes or did other awful things, the baby monkeys still clung because they'd been conditioned to regard these frames as sources of security. We must understand that when we ask people to turn from xtianity, we're asking them to give up their super-best friend or Fantasy Father image - Jesus as "lovey," the eternal security blanket. We're asking people to grow up and stand on their own two feet. That's not going to be easy.
While I hope people have more intelligence than baby monkeys, the model still works: people have been conditioned (some would say brainwashed) into viewing their religion as a source of comfort and security, and no matter how hard you try to show them that it's false or harmful, they're still going to cling.
There's a lot more work to do for atheists than simply bashing religion. We need to address the issue from a business angle and from a psychological angle. If we don't provide an appealing alternative, it's not going to catch fire. It's going to remain the apparent bastion of upper class, educated white males (although I'm a middle class, educated white female) and not have the universal appeal of xtianity. And it will fade away again under the shadow of superstition. I think Dr. Dawkins and others have opened a door here. It remains to be seen if organized atheist movements will truly be able to take advantage of this.

205. Comment #8510 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 12:56 pm

Exodus 20:1-17
1. you shall have no other gods before me. Comment: O.K. a little out there but for an Atheist (or agnostic) bearable. An Atheist believes there is no God by default follows this one.

2. You shall not make for yourself an image, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the Lord your God am a jealous God. Comment: Again a little out there, but an Atheist should have no problem following this one. Even if not who cares?

3. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name. Comment: Jesus Christ! This is one I just cannot abide by.

4. Remember the sabbath day, and keep it holy. Comment: I have a hard time with this one also.

5. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, your son or your daughter, your male or female slave, your livestock, or the alien resident in your towns. Comment: This one's ok, I like a day off - even the slave gets a day off.

6. Honor your father and your mother, so that your days may be long in the land that the Lord your God is giving you. Comment: This one's ok as long as they're not ass holes.

7. You shall not murder. Comment: Now this one I wholeheartedly agree with, and think should be included in legal systems.

8. You shall not commit adultery. Comment: Probably a good one to follow – improves survivability. Should not be included in legal systems however.

9. You shall not steal. Comment: Agree, I believe in property rights. Should be included in legal systems.

10. You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor. Comment: I agree, I can't stand a liar. Should be included in legal systems.

11. You shall not covet your neighbor's house; you shall not covet your neighbor's wife, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor. Comment: 11??? I guess 1 and 2 should be combined. I don't know about this one. As long as you don't act out on it I'm not sure what the problem is. And what was that about slaves?? Does this imply that slaves could be legitimate and property of another. I guess this is one reason I'm agnostic I don't particularly like this one.

206. Comment #8513 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 1:24 pm

533. Comment #8507 by asdf on November 21, 2006 at 12:42 pm

"We do we often find babies so cute in appearance? Again, we've been programmed to respond to the facial features of babies."


What! Babies just annoy me. Stink and make too much noise. I wonder - just who is the programmer?

BTW the statement G+not(G) is a binary logic statement. G is either true or false, + is the logical "OR" operator. So that the statement yields either (true or not true) or (false or not false) which is always true.

I'm not sure probabilities in a strict sense can be used in this context. How does one assign a probability to the existence or non-existence of God? Also an event can be very improbable but still virtually assured. The probability of tossing a fair coin ten times and obtaining heads each time is kind of remote, unless you toss the coin 10 E10 times then it is very likely a string of ten heads will occur.

207. Comment #8517 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 1:48 pm

536. Comment #8514 by Chumly on November 21, 2006 at 1:30 pm

"I'm not that good with anything that looks like a math problem"

Actually what I was doing is binary logic which cannot be manipulated in the same way as algebraic equation. In binary logic one operates on either 1 or 0, true or false. There is no minus (-) operator, the operators include

AND, OR, NOT, NAND, NOR and probably a few others.

208. Comment #8530 by Erik on November 21, 2006 at 2:45 pm

Hello! I'm sorry to say I'm breaking netiquette a bit by not reading all the comments before me but it's much and, well, yeah. I wouldn't blame you if you're not reading this either.

I'm (sort of) an atheist as well, and I can sort of find myself in your points, except for the fifth. I'd rather reverse your argument. While I like to apply moderation in religious matter, I very much like applying it to everything. Isn't it true that the best way to form one's opinion is by endlessly listening to other people's opinions and evaluating them and seeing whether or not they have a point somewhere? Of course, it's nice to be certain of oneself, but I find it even more pleasing to understand why other people think the way they do, rather than just telling them they're wrong.

On that note, also a small comment on your second point. This is why I said I'm 'sort of' an atheist - I don't believe in a diety, but part of me believes in the concept of reincarnation. Part of me knows it's probably not true, but the idea of an afterlife, or in the more usual religions, someone who watches over you, is very comforting. I think it's one of the main reasons so many of the elderly are religious - they're lonely. My grandma is a firm Christian, but by no means because she needs anything explained. It's just comfort. And I find it comforting too - I've no problems with holding two concepts in my mind that conflict a bit. Or a lot :) And I know there's no proof to be found for reincarnation, and I'm not seeking to prove it. If I want truth, I'll say there's nothing. If I want to sleep well, I'll say there's reincarnation. A delightfully easy way to soothe the mind, is it not?

Mm, I'll shut up, I must be boring you.

209. Comment #8577 by beepbeepitsme on November 21, 2006 at 6:05 pm

I have my doubts that people who express themselves as an atheist with qualifications, such as "I am an atheist but..." are in any logical sense, being intellectually honest.

Why should atheists, by default, have the responsibility to offer a replacement for religion?

There are, of course, other worldviews, such as humanism and secular humanism, but I don't consider it my responsibility by default, to provide people with an answer that might ease their existential angst.

It is just a further indication of the "either or mentality" or the false dichotomy which is perpetuated by the intellectually puerile.

No one suggests that because pedophilia is wrong, that we have to find some other sexual activity for pedophiles to replace their desire to have sex with children.

No one suggests that we HAVE to provide this alternative BEFORE we demand that they stop acting out their pedophilia either.

210. Comment #8582 by walter on November 21, 2006 at 6:41 pm

Frankly I find that this whole thing is much more fun when it's crashed by deadhead true believers like that 'think' guy.
Does anyone know of any creationist or ID threads somewhere out there in cyberspace that WE can crash?

211. Comment #8584 by walter on November 21, 2006 at 6:46 pm

Frankly, I find this post much more fun whenever some deadhead creationist like that 'think' guy shows up.
Does anyone know of any creationist or ID threads somewhere out there in cyberspace that WE can crash?
What fun!

212. Comment #8585 by walter on November 21, 2006 at 6:49 pm

Oops! Sorry, I thought my comment didn't go through the first time!

213. Comment #8590 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 7:33 pm

214. Comment #8597 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 7:53 pm

Comment #8591 by Joad on November 21, 2006 at 7:33 pm

Is that bait? Either you are a parrot or you are learning. Hopefully it is the later.

215. Comment #8621 by walter on November 21, 2006 at 8:55 pm

reply to #8587 asdf

Thanks!

216. Comment #8625 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 8:59 pm

564. Comment #8607 by asdf on November 21, 2006 at 8:20 pm

"You are saying that God either does or does not exist and that is it. (you are not even proving that god exists!)"

hat a fucking idiot, typical of those who talk but don't listen. I admit I have a little buzz, so my language might not be political.

My position is that we cannot know one way or the other - and that those making the attempt are equivalent. My proof shows that one or the other is true it is not an attempt to prove one way or the other. God!! One would think some things are obvious.

217. Comment #8628 by Valadon on November 21, 2006 at 9:14 pm

RE; 8589 by curious
"I am frankly astounded about the lack of mathematical knowledge among some of these people who call themselves Atheists and value what they think is science above all else. The fact is without at least a fundamental understanding of mathematics one cannot claim much of a knowledge about science."

I think that that may be short-sighted of you. I have no great expertise in mathematics which you suggest is the scientist's most important tool, but what I do have is a theoretical understanding that is intuitive of the above and a philosophical background to substantiate my thoughts and views.

218. Comment #8630 by Anonymous on November 21, 2006 at 9:26 pm

571.


"What I am saying is we need to assign probability to G, rather than assume 0 or 1."

OH MY GOD... I think you are attempting to drive me crazy!!! Of course I might have already arrived at the destination...

Please show me an analylitical method of deriving a probability that God exists, or does not exist. Or you need to admit that such a method does not exist. Which means that proof of G or not G is not currently possible.

219. Comment #8823 by rationalrevolution on November 22, 2006 at 11:32 am

Christian thought of the day for you:

Hebrews 9:

"26 If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, 27 but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God. 28 Anyone who rejected the law of Moses died without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 How much more severely do you think a man deserves to be punished who has trampled the Son of God under foot, who has treated as an unholy thing the blood of the covenant that sanctified him, and who has insulted the Spirit of grace? 30For we know him who said, "It is mine to avenge; I will repay," and again, "The Lord will judge his people." 31 It is a dreadful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."

Isn't God wonderful?

As a side note, atheists really should learn that most cultures historically have not had any belief in gods. The fact is that god belief is a minority position, and that it is just that the god believers have spread there belief, both through force and through other means, to overtake the majority of other non-god believing cultures.

Throughout the Americas, Africa, and Australia even 200 years ago there were still still tribes of people who no concept of gods at all. Some 3,000 plus years ago much of Asia and Europe was without god belief.

Hell Asia never really was dominated by god belief, most of their worldviews have historically been without god belief.

God belief is not universal at all, it has just become dominant through imperialism, expansionism, and evangelism.

220. Comment #8841 by rationalrevolution on November 22, 2006 at 12:21 pm

I'm talking here about god belief, not religion, and not spirits, etc. Yes, almost all (but not all) cultures believed in spirits or something like that of some kind. Yes most cultures that we know of over the past 5,000 years have had some kind of religion or another, but most of these religions had no gods. Some had spirits, some had ancestors, some had forces of nature, some had people, some had animals that they worshiped, but most did not have gods.

Indeed animism seems to be the most common base form of religion, and animism doesn't generally include gods.

Now, keep in mind that most of the cultures that we know the most about were the more sophisticated ones that had writings and such, as well as the ones that were more like us in some way, we tend to focus on these.

There is a correlation between god belief and civilization, such that the more civilized a culture is, the more likely they are to have god beliefs. I think that this has to do with gods being tools of social manipulation, the utility of which increased as population sizes and social complexity increased.

In terms of numbers of different cultures, though there have been more small uncivilized groups of people than large organized groups of people.

Keep in mind also that Christianity developed in the most advanced civilization on earth up to its time, and for the next 1,500 years after Christianity, the Roman Empire. Xianity isn't some small backwater tribal religion, its a religion that was developed along side and using the philosophy of Plato, at a time when Galen was doing eye and brain surgery, the Romans had water powered factories, the circumference of the earth had been calculated to within 1% of the correct size, and the leading debate of the day was the nature of atoms and how the universe originated.

So, Xianity really has nothing at all in common with the "average" belief systems of the people of the world, not even close.

221. Comment #8883 by rationalrevolution on November 22, 2006 at 4:48 pm

Wow, two atheists in a row that display religious thinking!

"I know there is an unseen collective intelligence that guides certain aspects of our consciousness, that we can guide ourselves with the right kind of openness and training."

Say WHAAAAA?!?!?!? You "know"? Back to the land of faith. Obviously not all atheists are scientifically minded, which is a good point to understand. Dawkins generally speaks for scientifically minded atheists.

"I am an atheist but I am not an evolutionist.

I'm not sure whether Darwin is the answer. Survival of the fittest, too, has historically been responsible for meritocracy and used as a justification for fascism."

Say WHAAAAAA?!?!?

Again, non-scientific atheists here....

"Survival of the fittest", an economic term that was coined before Darwin, has not "historically been responsible" for anything.

#1 Read my article on the mis-portrayal of Darwin:

http://www.rationalrevolution.net/articles/darwin_nazism.htm

#2 Even if what you said were true, that has no bearing on the reality of how nature works.

You are displaying religious thinking, trying to describe reality according to how you think it should be, not what it is.

You view seems to be "If the term survival of the fittest inspires fascism, then survival of the fittest much be false."

Yikes!

Reality is what it is. The theory of evolution is not a religion, its not a moral code, its not a model for our society, its a description of how life develops and changes over generations.

It can inform us about why certain ethical problems exist in our society, but it can't justify anything, it can only inform.

Besides, as Darwin stated:

"With mankind, selfishness, experience, and imitation, probably add, as Mr. Bain has shown, to the power of sympathy; for we are led by the hope of receiving good in return to perform acts of sympathetic kindness to others; and sympathy is much strengthened by habit. In however complex a manner this feeling may have originated, as it is one of high importance to all those animals which aid and defend one another, it will have been increased through natural selection; for those communities, which included the greatest number of the most sympathetic members, would flourish best, and rear the greatest number of offspring."

"As man advances in civilisation, and small tribes are united into larger communities, the simplest reason would tell each individual that he ought to extend his social instincts and sympathies to all the members of the same nation, though personally unknown to him. This point being once reached, there is only an artificial barrier to prevent his sympathies extending to the men of all nations and races. ... This virtue, one of the noblest with which man is endowed, seems to arise incidentally from our sympathies becoming more tender and more widely diffused, until they are extended to all sentient beings."

222. Comment #8888 by rationalrevolution on November 22, 2006 at 5:30 pm

Tim:

Okay, that's fine. Perhaps I misunderstood part of what you said, however I still take issue with this:

"I'm saying that Dawkin's claim that religion is responsible for badness the world over is equally applicable to the theory of evolution."

Are you saying that the theory of evolution has been responsible for badness the world over?

If so, I strenuously disagree. Again, see the article I wrote on this subject. The fascists were religiously inspired, not scientifically inspired.

Religions and the ToE are completely different anyway. The ToE is simply an explanation for how life develops.

Religions have many more qualities than explanations of this, they also often contain moral codes, laws, they encourage tribalism and group think, they urge people to follow leaders, they urge people to believe things without evidence, they are motivators of behavior, etc.

Completely different. A scientific theory of any kind isn't even comparable to a religion, that's like comparing apples and submarines....

223. Comment #9003 by rationalrevolution on November 23, 2006 at 6:06 am

Gods don't have to be material to prove that they don't exist. "Material" or not, gods, spirits, etc., are supposed to have material impacts on the world according to their believers. We can test for these effects, and when we do so we don't find any evidence of any effects. For example the prayer studies, comparisons between the lives of non-believers and believers, in which we see no differences in terms of health, prosperity, success, etc., in fact we generally see that overall non-believers live longer and are more prosperous because they tend to be better educated, etc.

So, we certainly can look for evidence that such gods exist, and when we do so, we find to evidence.

224. Comment #9070 by island on November 23, 2006 at 2:33 pm

Torbjörn Larson said:
The link doesn't contain the second paragraph you have cited, and the change from citation signs (") to ' modifiers signs (') doesn't explain if Davies said so or whoever wrote that paragraph (you?) did.

No, I assume that Tim Adams, (who really did his homework), is responsible for that, but I gave the wrong link, sorry:

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/review/story/0,,1873989,00.html

BTW,
Davies himself has proved that the observed predominance of retarded radiation in the context of Wheeler-Feynman absorber theory isn't consistent with current cosmology. ( See the http://www.npl.washington.edu/npl/int_rep/dtime/node3.html part of Cramers paper.)


That's a very interesting reference. Thank you very much. I think that I might know why it's incompatibile with reasonable models of the universe.


"If the action of the universe is made toward a definable "goal" then there is purpose in nature, and you do not *know* and cannot prove that this is not the case."

You are discussing a philosophical position equivalent to a belief in gods (purpose).

I don't think so, since all facets of the human experience are teleological manifestations in strictly deterministic models, and that includes "purpose", "morality"... etc.

I was describing that position from a neuroscientific perspective, where explanations such as "purpose" and "free will" are recognised as folk psychology without any observable physical definition.

Like I said... above.


"Laplace's demon"

Deterministic quantum mechanics also contains genuine randomness from "wavefunction collapse" or "quantum decoherence" depending on interpretation of deciding an eigenstate of an observable. This is of course why Laplace's demon is no longer a useful idea.

I guess that means that you believe that the many worlds interpretation is the only valid deterministic approach. Well, I don't, because I have reason to think that Einstein was right.


The ease with which life arose is studied in abiogenesis and exobiology. No one has any answers yet.

The ease with which life arose also carries a "first most apparent" implication that either gets readily recognized, or it is willfully ignored.


"FINAL Cause"

There is such a cosmology, the Hawking-Hartle no-boundary cosmology, which uses Feynman's path integrals and a choice mechanism. The main show stopper is that it gives an unstable deSitter universe that is different from what we observe. So there is AFAIK no believable final condition cosmology.

Instability is not a problem for the quasi-static model that I have in mind, which also notes that the anthropic balance points are *fixed*. Absolute symmetry is the unattainable goal, where the extreme nearness to this absolute was achieved by the big bang also carries a "first most apparent" implication.

http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2006-02/msg0073320.html

225. Comment #9078 by Matthew on November 23, 2006 at 3:08 pm

All you atheists are just as committed to a faith as those who believe in god.

Atheism is an assertion that something, namely god, is absent.

It's pretty obvious to anyone with a passing familiarity with scientific method that this absence is never going to be something which can be tested, so atheism is unscientific.

Agnosticism has had a bad press, everyone thinks we must be unable to make up our minds. But it's precisely the refusal to do so that makes it the only proper scientific position on god.

226. Comment #9145 by rationalrevolution on November 23, 2006 at 6:57 pm

Re #616

"On a practical level, a great deal of beneficial organisation and process in current society has its roots in organised religion. Charitable works, altruism and tolerance are all areas which are peopled extensively by practising religionists, and the reputation of atheists is of unfeeling and uncaring individuals."

Riiight... So let's just go on the false lies that religious people spread about atheists here, and also forget about the billions of dollars a year in religious fraud that takes place around the world.

Religious people claim that atheists eat babies and practice Satanic rituals, IT MUST BE TRUE!

Bill Gates is an atheist, or at least an agnostic, and he has given more money to charity than anyone in history.

Did you know that a very paltry amount of the money given to churches actually goes to charity. Most of it goes to paying to the church building and wages to the preacher and other employees.

What about countries like Japan, South Korea, and Scandinavia? You think that they don't do charitable work in these places, hell these are some of the most generous countries in the world, and guess what, they are also the most atheistic.

The thing is, is that religious organizations (contrary to what their religions tell them to do), wear their charity on their sleeves, whereas atheists don't give to charities in the name of "atheism", we simply donate out time and money in the name of whatever cause.

Tell me, how many scams are there "in the name of atheism", and how many scams are there in the name of "God". I think we all know the answer here.

http://www.usatoday.com/money/general/2001-08-08-scams.htm

"f it is easier for a camel to fit through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to get into heaven, then a growing number of con artists are doing the Lord's work: They're defrauding Christians at an alarming rate.

State securities regulators charge that in the past 3 years, scams in 27 states used the name of God to rip off $1.9 billion. By comparison, for the 5 years ended in 1989, they say $450 million was lost to religious-based scams."

The Christians are only hurting themselves with their blind faith... oh wait, that's not true, they hurt us all.

227. Comment #9237 by island on November 24, 2006 at 7:56 am

By all means, get your ideas published and accepted by cosmologists, and then get back to me on this point.

What a cop-out, that is further compounded by a lame appeal to authority. The physics is very simple and stands alone in self-explanatory fashion, so I need to do no such thing, especially since I know that you can easily understand it and the ensuing EVOLUTIONARY cosmological model that falls from it.

It's not up to me to prove Einstein wrong, since I've proven that nobody ever really did, so it's 1917 until somebody does, and everything that you've said about the subject means absolutely nothing, until then.

http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2005-06/msg0069755.html

Thank you again for the link.

228. Comment #9255 by rationalrevolution on November 24, 2006 at 9:04 am

"Personally, I take exception to the philosophy that genetic irregularities warrant expulsion from the gene pool. Perhaps in nature this is true, consistent with a theory based on observation of what happens. But surely a debate about atheism is essentially a spiritual debate? And that having a spiritual debate is what makes us human, civilised or whichever other generous interpretation of our place in order of things we choose to accept."

The theory of evolution is not a philosophy, it is simply a description of how things work in nature. We didn't design nature. We are just observing it. We have no control over what nature is or how it works, all we can do is seek to understand it.

It is as though I make the observation that volcanoes erupt and when they do, the ash and lava that comes from them kills all of the living things in its path, and then you responding by saying "That's not a very nice thing to say, so I don't think that's true. It wouldn't be fair is a completely meaningless material event like a volcano eruption killed millions of life forms, that's not nice, so we shouldn't say that those things happen."

The theory of evolution is not a philosophy that says "genetic 'irregularities' warrant elimination from the gene pool", its a model that takes into account THE FACT that this is what happens in nature. We don't cause it, we don't want it, we don't like it, we don't use this fact to justify anything, we simply observe the fact as it exists just like we observe that the earth goes around the sun.

The world is what it is, all we can do is seek to understand it.

229. Comment #9264 by rationalrevolution on November 24, 2006 at 9:33 am

Re: 624

To be fair: "Suicide bombing follows killing of grandson"

He grandson was just killed by Jews, so that she would take this action isn't any great mystery. Many people would do similar things and have done them throughout history.

I'm very anti-religious, but I don't think we can blame Palestinian militancy on religion, they are living in an illegally occupied zone and the world seems to be against them. Its desperation, not religion, leading these attacks.

I agree with Dawkins and Sam Harris on most things, but this isn't one of them.

230. Comment #9326 by island on November 24, 2006 at 1:10 pm

No Larsson, I don't remember, but I've heard your lame comparison made by people that can't dispute the physics, like yourself, and I've also heard just the opposite from many more physicists who don't ignore what's being said in order to do that.

I provide physics that supports that Einstein was correct, so you dig up some crap out of Baez index that says that crackpots insist that Einstein was right... without considering what's being said.

I say that neodarwinians and physicists are pre-prejudiced against this, so you provide a quote about how crackpots claim that science is against them... without disputing the fact that Brandon Carter called them, "dogmatic anticentrists" and Paul Davies can be quoted saying the same things that I do.

Those silly crackpots.

Not only that, but I've proven on many occassions that this prejudice clearly exists by backing the fools into a corner, and yet they still deny it.

Crackpot is the right term, alright, but it has nothing to do with me, and I asked Baez point-blank to please put this to rest, but he could not, because I'm NOT WRONG... so shut the hell up, because I don't buy your hype for one lame minute, and my point is two years stronger.

I'll eat you alive.

231. Comment #9331 by island on November 24, 2006 at 1:38 pm

Better yet, I'll up the anti... because you remind me a lot of people like, Danny Lundsford, who scoff at the mere mention of strong interpretations of the AP while professing what a wonderful thing that the cosmological principle is, even though the freaking thing doesn't extend to the observed anthropically constrained universe.

Crackpots... is right!


Kaknock yourself out.

It is an unavoidable fact that the anthropic coincidences are observed to be uniquely related to the structure of the universe in a way that defies what our projected models expect. If you disallow unproven and speculative physics theory, then an evidentially supported implication does necessarily exist that carbon-based life is somehow relevant to the structure mechanism of the universe, and weak, multiverse interpretations do not supercede this fact, unless a multiverse is proven to be more than cutting-edge theoretical speculation.

That's the "undeniable fact" that makes Richard Dawkins and Leonard Susskind say that the universe "appears designed" for life, because what is unexpectedly observed without the admission of speculation is most-apparently geared toward the production of carbon-base life, and even intelligent life. Their confidence comes from the fact that they both "beleive-in" unproven multiverse theories, but their interpretation is only valid against equally non-evidenced "causes", like supernatural forces and intelligent design.

These arguments do not erase the fact that the prevailing evidence still most apparentely does indicate that we are somehow relevantly linked to the structure mechanism, until they prove it isn't so, so we must remain open to evidence in support of this, or we are not honest scientists, and we are no better than those who would intentionally abuse the science. We certainly do not automatically dismiss the "appearance" by first looking for rationale around the most apparent implication of evidence.

That's like pretending that your number one suspect doesn't even exist! There can be nothing other than self-dishonesty and pre-conceived prejudicial anticipation of the meaning that motivates this approach, and often *automatically* elicites false, ill-considered, and, therefore, necessarily flawed assumptions, that are most often accompanied by falsely conceived accusations about "geocentrism" and "creationism".

Having established that we can't honestly deny that the implication for an anthropic connection to the forces *most-apparently* does exists, we must, therefore, be open to science that might be indicitive of this, or we cannot call ourselves honest scientists, so it is unavoidable that we recognize that a true anthropic relationship with the forces of the universe will *necessarily* include a reciprocal connection to the human evolutionary process.

There can't be any argument about the fact that the implication exists, unless you can prove that your multiverse exists, or if you can otherwise prove that the stability mechansim is not inherently geared toward the production of carbon based life for some very practical physical reason, over a "golden region" of the observed universe.

That's what makes Leonard Susskind say that "we will be hard-pressed to answer the IDists"... if the landscape fails, although Lenny doesn't seem to be aware that *natural bias* is the default, if we're not here by accident, so ID doesn't even enter the picture and can't be inferred without direct proof.

There is no valid basis for invoking multiverse interpretations to wipe-away the otherwise indicated significance, unless you're just arguing with an extremist creationist. A scientist is obligated to accept the fact that she or he is being directed toward a bunch of balance points in nature that are intricately related to both the structure of the universe and the existence of carbon based life, and this is expected to somehow account for the otherwise completely unexpected structuring of the universe.

You can know that you're dealing with a self-dishonest scientist if they do not recognize that the above statements are factual and correct.

Anybody that wants to try, is welcome to prove me wrong about any of the above statements, if only you could...

232. Comment #9415 by island on November 24, 2006 at 5:37 pm

You seem to think science is done by manipulating equations, instead of making hypotheses and test them.

No, you wrongly and for no definable reason seem to be under the mistaken impression that I haven't or can't do all and more of the above, and don't assume that evidence for inflationary theory isn't more simply explained by a more preferred theory, because, to date, it does.

233. Comment #9564 by rationalrevolution on November 25, 2006 at 6:06 am

To island:

LOL! Talk about a bunch of meaningless nonsense. Your posts read like ID papers from the Disovery Institute :)

The sad thing is, I think that you beleive that you are actually saying something.

On a different side note, quantum mechanics does not provide a gap for god to live in, as some here seem to think. All that the Uncertainty Principle really means is that we cannot make accurate measurements at the smallest levels, even in theory, because of special relativity, since all measurements are really relative to something else, and space time is relative to any given reference point.

The same principles apply to Einstein's twin brother thought experiment, except he is doing it on a huge scale there, but if you move that down to a micro scale, then there reaches a point where the differences become significant for us, to the point that WE can't DETERMINE the direction and velocity of a moving particle, BUT THAT DOES NOT MEAN THAT THE DIRECTION AND VELOCITY ARE NOT IN FACT DETERMINISTIC!

The deterministic model is still very much a fact, QM does not refute it, all that QM does is tell us that *WE* ARE NOT CAPABLE OF DETERMINING outcomes at an ultra-microscale, even in theory.

It doesn't mean, however that "particles make choices", or "act randomly". All particles, down to the smallest level, still act deterministically, we are just not capable of measuring and predicting those behaviors at the smallest level. Once you measure things on a level where the relativity is no longer significant, then we see that everything follows the deterministic model.

So, yes, as Einstein always believed, the universe is deterministic.

234. Comment #9582 by island on November 25, 2006 at 7:33 am

rationalrevolution,

Quote something and dispute it, or shut up, because you sound like a reactionary idiot, calling people names and making baseless claims with no substance to your logic whatsoever...

How pathetic and sad are you...

235. Comment #9586 by island on November 25, 2006 at 7:42 am

Just an FYI, but General Relativity without quantum mechanics is strictly deterministic, whereas, GR with random quantum fluctuations, is not... duh@"UncertaintyOnlyMeans".

236. Comment #9800 by island on November 26, 2006 at 3:26 am

No, Joad, that's completely false assumption that is perpetuated by the erroneous belief that you are only left with "design" if we are not here by accident.

THINK!... FOR YOURSELVES, FOR A FREAKING CHANGE, PEOPLE!!!

237. Comment #9848 by island on November 26, 2006 at 8:03 am

Joad,

That's correct, but what has that got to do with ID?

Do you think that Einstein was a theist?

Do you have some reason to leap beyond ordinary *natural physical bias* to assume that there is an intelligent agent behind the fact that we are not here by accident, in this case?

Do you see how the failure to recognize that this is the default scientific position empowers fanatical creationists?... since we are left with only willful denial if we "believe" exactly what they want us to believe... without **direct** proof that there is an intelligent agent involved.

238. Comment #9863 by island on November 26, 2006 at 8:37 am

By all appearances the future prospects of the Homo sapiens are dim: Extinction is a distinct possibility within the next ten thousand years, or sooner.

Nah, this is normal and necessary to our existence, since all of the anthropic coincidences are fixed to a balance that occurs between diametrically opposing <-|-> runaway tendencies that would surely lead to extinction if any of them were left unchecked by their relevant extreme counterpart inclination.

http://abyss.uoregon.edu/~js/images/instability.gif

You can start worrying as soon as were NOT surrounded by gloom-n-doom scenarios.

AND YET WE ARE STILL HERE!!!
-Morphius

239. Comment #9867 by island on November 26, 2006 at 8:57 am

David... No, I don't deny that we are animals, (apes, even), but I don't think that we can go extinct before we have satisifed the physical need that brought us into existence.

Course... I'm not your average antifanatic... ;)

240. Comment #9874 by island on November 26, 2006 at 9:13 am

Okay, just to clarify, I have said nothing to indicate that I am straying from agnostic atheism, and I take exception to the implication that my view is mystical metaphysical speculation, since the evidence that I offered is the same evidence that Brandon Carter, John Wheeler, and even Paul Davies interpret as justification for intelligent life over other forms of carbon based life that have served their supporting purpose and gone extinct.

From the standpoint of typical **free-thinker** atheism... yeah, they're cluelessly fooled by Chicken Little alright... heheh

Woulda' coulda' shoulda'... prove it.

We should be dead now... if they were right.

241. Comment #9882 by island on November 26, 2006 at 9:31 am

I was talking about extinction, but it's not irrational, since we have, after all, had George Bushes in office for quite a long time now... ;)

Which is no less deadly than having Al Gore's in office for less time... but on balance... anyway...

It's difficult for me to defend my position without identifying the reason why we are most likely needed into existence:

http://www.taipeitimes.com/News/edit/archives/2004/09/30/2003204990

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226739368/sciencewriter-20?creative=327641&camp=14573&link_code=as1

http://www.lns.cornell.edu/spr/2006-02/msg0073320.html

Without the above, I'll admit that I have trouble defending my position.

242. Comment #9892 by island on November 26, 2006 at 10:41 am

I think that I've offered reasonable support, (especially in the third link), for the assertion that we're here in large numbers across the golden region of the universe to affect the symmetry of the universe, which is something that only humans, black holes and Supernovae can do, except that we are, "pound for pound" far out of their league, in terms of the energy that we expend to do it.

We're here to *cumulatively* help the universe "evolve", and the anthropic constraint on the forces defines a reciprocal connection between human evolution and the evolutionary process of the universe.

Prepare to "leap"... ;)

243. Comment #9934 by Rolf Muertter on November 26, 2006 at 1:55 pm

I am an atheist, BUT ... I do believe that religion is here to stay. Not because it is culturally established, but because it is part of human nature. Religion is a human universal; add to that the important role that religion plays in most people's lives, and the sacrifices that people are willing to make for their religion, and it becomes abundantly clear that it must have some adaptive value. What could that adaptive value be? How about religion as a coalition building instinct? Having genes for religious behavior is advantageous because it allows individuals to be part of a larger coalition, which is necessary for survival because smaller coalitions can't compete.

Very few people are theorists. In their day-to-day lives, the only things that are on their minds are sex, family, and career; having a scientifically consistant world view is not a priority. They will believe whatever is convenient or advantageous, and in most societies, being part of a religious culture is necessary for survival. Our minds didn't evolve to maximize the consistancy of our world views; they evolved to maximize our reproductive success.

Atheism is a luxury that a few of us in wealthier countries can afford, because wealth, over time, leads to more liberal attitudes. But once we're past peak oil, and our environmental impact begins to catch up with us, competitive pressures will increase to the point where we will not be able to afford this luxury anymore. The future for atheism is quite bleak indeed.

The key to understanding religion is to realize that humans are animals, and the best method to get at the bottom of animal behavior is sociobiology. It's quite baffling to me that Dawkins, as a sociobiologist, hasn't thought of this. Treating religion as merely an attempt to understand the world, or as a particularily persistent meme, just reveals a lack of insight into this important aspect of human nature.

244. Comment #9952 by Anonymous on November 26, 2006 at 6:21 pm

TO THE HUMAN BEINGS OF THE PLANET EARTH.WHY DO THEY BELIEVE IN SO MANY VERSIONS OF GOD.HOW COULD THERE BE MORE THAN ONE SUPREME BEING.THERE ARE INTELLEGENT REASONS FOR ALL COMMENTS BUT I AM STILL PUZZLED.....

245. Comment #10080 by island on November 27, 2006 at 3:13 am

Inflationary theory is, um, inflationary theory. Maybe you mean that the observations inflationary theory predicts are explained by other theories.

Maybe I did, but somehow you just don't capture my utter contempt for it, and now for it's author, as well, after Guth's most recent sophmoric behavior toward Neil Turock and his cyclic model.

Luckily, I have John Horgan for that...


But inflation, which is as simple a theory that as they come...

No, that's false.


is part of the current concordance Lambda-CDM cosmology I linked to earlier ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lambda_CDM_model ). It is not (yet) verified to three sigma, but the Planck probe will probably give data to test to that level of certainty.

Inflationary theory is an ugly "Band-Aid" to big bang theory that guth invented to account for discrepencies between observation and the expected evolution of the universe from a pre-assumed singularity.

Standard big bang theory combined with particle physics, indicated that the universe ought to be full of magnetic monopoles, and yet we don't see any. The problem that guth was trying to resolve was why they aren't observed. One obvious way to lose them is to make the universe inflate by some large and rapid factor that simply dilutes the density of these monopoles. He was a particle physicist trying to get rid of monopoles, and he came up with the idea that the universe suddenly jumped in size by a huge amount during its first "split" second... bla bla bla... BUT...

The singularity was already assumed, rather than to follow the evolution of the universe back to the point where extraordinarily rapid expansion becomes necessary, because the most obvious and by far the simpler solution to the problem without inflation is that the universe had certain volume when the big bang occurred.

Well, low.and.behold, that's exactly where we find - "RE-Thermalization"... surprise... surprise.

The standard interpretation is that thermodynamic arrow of time necessarily requires low entropy initial conditions, which John Page pointed-out would be extremely improbable. Rather than solving this problem, the inflation theory further aggravates it because the reheating or thermalization at the end of the inflation era, necessarily increases entropy, meaning that the initial state of the universe had to be even more orderly than in other Big Bang theories that don't have an inflationary phase.

Not only that, but as, Lawrence Krauss pointed out that the amplitude of the quadrupole moment of the CMBR is unexpectedly low, and the other low multipoles are observed to be preferentially aligned with the ecliptic plane. Thhis is a signature of what is known as, "non-Gaussianity", which contradicts the simplest models of inflation, requiring more band-aids and cream. What a freaking kludge.

If the microwave background at the multipoles is correlated with the geometry and direction of motion of the solar system, and the incoherence manifests via octopole and quadrupole components in a bound universe, then there should be a center of gravity at the center of the visible universe that correlates to the ecliptic.

So maybe we're not exactly the "center" of the universe as Lawrence Krauss http://www.edge.org/3rd_culture/krauss06/krauss06.2_index.html>FEARS might be correct, rather we're on a centrally preferred "plane" along with a lot of other similarly evolved galaxies, which, with very high probability, will include similarly developed environments and carbon based life, per this "Goldilocks Enigma".

246. Comment #10217 by Rich on November 27, 2006 at 1:37 pm

Dom's comments (#7272) were spot on my personal belief that we need to "replace God with awe of nature" It has always worked for me, but it never occured to me to "sell" the idea to others ... or that I was subconsciously avoiding the "sell" as conventional religion is above criticism by convention.
Rich

247. Comment #10300 by Rolf Muertter on November 27, 2006 at 7:31 pm

Re: 660. Comment #9935 by asdf on November 26, 2006 at 2:04 pm:

Of course we can cooperate without religion. Many other animal species do, such as primates, dolphins, vampire bats, etc. Remember, I made the distinction between larger and smaller coalitions. There are different levels of cooperation. At the lowest level, there is nepotism, which is based on kin-selection. At the next level we have reciprical altruism, which is based on individual recognition. This level of cooperation is limited by the number of individuals who we can recognize individually, somewhere around 100, so we can keep track of who owes what to whom. Religion is a mechanism for breaking through this barrier, facilitating the formation of larger, more competitive coalitions. Individual recognition is replaced by a system of religious myths and rituals, which allows us to recognize who is part of the group, and, combined with a system of moral values, makes cheater-detection easier.

Your theory that religion is just a method of controlling people is very popular among educated atheists, but is easily refuted. You can fool some people some of the time, but you can't fool most people most of the time. Why do you think our brains are so big? If the human brain were half as big as it is, we could still easily out-wit lions and chimpanzees. Our brains are so big because we are constantly trying to out-wit each other. Lets say some people were really good at consistently exploiting others. They would then have more resources, which would result in more offspring. The exploited would have fewer offspring. As a result, the population of exploiters would increase, and that of the exploited would decrease. But not all people are equally exploitable, in other words there is selection for higher intelligence. But when potential victims are more intelligent, there will be selection pressure for higher intelligence in exploiters. The result is an evolutionary arms race. But eventually, some kind of dynamic equilibrium becomes established, with a certain ratio of exploiters to cooperators, and most of the time there are far more cooperators than there are cheaters.

Religion is one of those adaptations that increases the number of cooperators, and makes exploitative strategies more difficult. But it can never eliminate them, because there is an evolutionary arms race going on. Another way of putting it is that religion is an evolutionarily stable strategy. There's no use in fighting it.

248. Comment #10316 by Anonymous on November 27, 2006 at 8:48 pm

Until I found out that this dialogue even existed,I was prepared to just write off my life and humanity with it. I couldn't agree more heartily. Religion is a lame adherence to something (well, that lends it substance which it doesn't deserve) that is like an ugly, backward secret like incest that needs to be let out and aired and let go. It needs to be reconciled to quaint little stories and myths and fables and recognized as such. Please think: just before the time of the first explorers, people really thought odd fantastic Monsters and Beaties existed. They thought that the earth was flat and that if you went too far you would fall off and die! They also used to think that they could peer into people's heads through a hole and vent the spirits out. The root of religion came LONG before even THAT. That should give you some idea of how dumb and wrongheaded it is. If there's a rock in your shoe, and you can't walk and you're in pain, what do you do? You STOP, take off the shoe, examoine it, find the source of the problem and get RID of it. Common Sense. Spirituality? Fine. respect compasssion and tolerance? essential. Organized religion? TOXIC.

249. Comment #10340 by God on November 27, 2006 at 10:17 pm

I do not exist.

250. Comment #10404 by island on November 28, 2006 at 3:42 am

No, it is really very simple.

That isn't what you said, and it isn't what I replied to. It isn't "as simple as they come".


The simplest models are potential minima in some field. Much simpler concept than the appearance of the discrete negative energy states of your cosmology, for example.

Dude, you can prove my hypothesis by getting into a sealed jar with a very good vacuum pump or other means, and it isn't MY cosmology, so quit ducking the point that scinence OWES Einstein another little look-see before they assume that all of the ensuing assumptions aren't the load of crap that this makes them appear to be.


"guth invented to account for discrepencies"
All theories are proposed to explain data.

You apparently missed the point.


"The singularity was already assumed"
Your description of things were rather accurate, up to here. You left out...

No, I gave the reason that orignially motivated Guth to invent it. The rest was gravy. I've noticed that you don't discern many of these fine points with the normal rigor of say... someone that is arguing SR. I really hate this typically modern "loose-thinking" that is allowed into the cutting-edge, which was not present until the seventies, and it really hurts my ability to prove my point. For example, when you ignored the main jist of my short discertation about the anthropic physics to make this into a cutting-edege discussion about inflationary theory. Or when you ignored the extremely important point that I made that "the ease with which life arrose", (your words), carries a MOST APPARENT implication. Just as evidence that we truly are at the center of the universe carries a MOST APPARENT implication that is either, readily recognized and investigated with **equal credence**... or it is WILLFULLY IGNORED while we search for flaws, and any other form of rationale that can be used to dismiss the implication out of hand.

And finally an APPARENT anthropic constraint on the forces, does NOT MOST APPARENTLY indicate that we are here by accident... so the implication is that we ARE the freaking stability mechanism, so the first scientific endevour should be to figure out HOW, not, how-not!!!

Duh@AWholeWorldFull of non-scientific prejudice in denial.

The new results are either telling us that all of science is wrong and we're the center of the universe, or maybe the data is imply incorrect, or maybe it's telling us there's something weird about the microwave background results and that maybe, maybe there's something wrong with our theories on the larger scales. And of course as a theorist I'm certainly hoping it's the latter, because I want theory to be wrong, not right, because if it's wrong there's still work left for the rest of us.
--Lawrence Krauss


...that inflation also explains the large scale spacetime homogeneity (flatness) and matter inhomogeneity (inflated spacetime primordial fluctuations seeding galaxies).

These are more simply explained by my... er... EINSTEIN'S model, as well. Only, it also very simply resolves the asymmetry problem, the monopole problem, causality, etc, etc, etc... every last one of the anthropic problems and, many, many MORE, fall quite easily and naturally from it, and my point stands:

The singularity was wrongly pre-assumed, or inflationary theory never would have even been considered to be necessary.

PS: Quit pretending that the cutting edge theory means squat to this debate.

I feel like we're arguing old mainstream stuff

The observed universe rules this science until you can prove that you own the ToE, so get over yourself.
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