Tuesday, October 21, 2008 | Reason : In the News | print version

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All aboard the atheist bus campaign

by Ariane Sherine, Guardian

Reposted from:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2008/oct/21/religion-advertising

It's real, it's happening: you can sponsor the first atheist advert on a bus — and Richard Dawkins will match your money

bus sign

The godless move in mysterious ways: what the atheist bus campaign's advert will look like.

The atheist bus campaign launches today thanks to Comment is free readers. Because of your enthusiastic response to the idea of a reassuring God-free advert being used to counter religious advertising, the slogan "There's probably no God. Now stop worrying and enjoy your life" could now become an ad campaign on London buses — and leading secularists have jumped on board to help us raise the money.

The British Humanist Association will be administering all donations to the campaign, and Professor Richard Dawkins, bestselling author of The God Delusion, has generously agreed to match all contributions up to a maximum of £5,500, giving us a total of £11,000 if we raise the full amount. This will be enough to fund two sets of atheist adverts on 30 London buses for four weeks.

If the buses hit the road, this will be the UK's first ever atheist advertising campaign. It's an exciting development, which I never expected when I first proposed the idea on Cif in June. Back then, I was just keen to counter the religious ads running on public transport, which featured a URL to a website telling non-Christians they would spend "all eternity in torment in hell", burning in "a lake of fire". When I suggested the atheist counter-slogan (now shortened for readability), the response was extremely positive, and hundreds of you pledged your support after the follow-up article.

As you read this, a new advertising campaign for Alpha Courses is running on London buses. If you attend an Alpha Course, you will again be told that failing to believe in Jesus will condemn you to hell. There's no doubt that advertising can be effective, and religious advertising works particularly well on those who are vulnerable, frightening them into believing. Religious organisations' jobs are made easier because there's no publicly visible counter-view to refute their threats of eternal damnation.

The atheist bus campaign aims to change this. In addition to the slogan, the adverts will feature the URLs of secular, humanist and atheist websites, so that readers can find out more about atheism as a positive and liberating alternative to religion. We've also set up an interactive campaign website and Facebook group, so that questions raised by the adverts can be publicly debated.

CBS Outdoor, the bus advertising company, will run the atheist adverts in January if the funds are raised — but we need your help to make this happen.

Your donations will give atheism a more visible presence in the UK, generate debate, brighten people's day on the way to work, and hopefully encourage more people to come out as atheists. As Richard Dawkins says: "This campaign to put alternative slogans on London buses will make people think — and thinking is anathema to religion."

To donate to the atheist bus campaign, please visit here.

Posted: Tuesday, October 21, 2008 | Permalink

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251. Comment #268627 by Jane Tomlinson on October 22, 2008 at 4:01 am

I was at the Dawkins/Lennox debate 'Has science buried god?' at the Oxford Uni Museum of Natural History last night and Richard explained that he actually wanted the words:
"there's almost certainly no god" rather than than "there's probably no god" but he was overruled!

Other Comments by Jane Tomlinson

252. Comment #268631 by Vaal on October 22, 2008 at 4:15 am

Jane,

How did that go? Is it being linked here, Richard?

Other Comments by Vaal

253. Comment #268632 by scottishgeologist on October 22, 2008 at 4:25 am

Guys 'n' gals

Re: Stephen Green - I sometimes wonder if the best way of dealing with people like this is just to let them spout their venom, let them pour forth their vitriol, let them hang themselves with their own ropes.

I am not sure quite who they speak for, apart from themselves. Even a lot of Evangies dont like the guy. David Robertson referred to him a a one man band, which wouldnt surprise me.

Mind you he's still a twat....

Quetz: your quote:

"All we do is as dirty rags compared to the works of God".

What a wonderfully life-affirming worldview

Summed up nicely there! Trouble is however, this is what the "inspired, infallible, inerrant Word of God has to say

Its in Isaiah 64:6

"But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags"

Not only are we compared to "filthy rags", but in some translations, the expression is:

"And we are all become as one unclean, and all our justices as the rag of a menstruous woman"

So not only does it make humans sound worthless, it also adds a sexist element as well....

If any of you can stand it, there are all sorts of parallel translations and explanantions here:

http://bible.cc/isaiah/64-6.htm

:-)))
SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

254. Comment #268633 by AllanW on October 22, 2008 at 4:28 am

Comment #268632 by scottishgeologist on October 22, 2008 at 4:25 am
'Re: Stephen Green - I sometimes wonder if the best way of dealing with people like this is just to let them spout their venom, let them pour forth their vitriol, let them hang themselves with their own ropes. '

I was just about to post exactly that sentiment. The people who react/act like this are a great boon to rational enquiry; you only need to highlight their words/actions underlining where appropriate.

Other Comments by AllanW

255. Comment #268634 by Quetzalcoatl on October 22, 2008 at 4:30 am

SG-

I am not sure quite who they speak for, apart from themselves. Even a lot of Evangies dont like the guy. David Robertson referred to him a a one man band, which wouldnt surprise me.

Unfortunately he's become one of those that the media think is a good person to get an opinion from, hence his appearance on Five Live last night. He did a good job of making himself sound stupid, but even so, I don't like it one bit.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

256. Comment #268635 by fsm1965 on October 22, 2008 at 4:31 am

They always pick on Mr "Christian Voice" cuz he provokes anger and hence calls.

Anyone sat next to him sounds reasonable so in a way he is doing our job for us...

Will get around to putting in my 2p (not literally!) to the campaign, just hope it isn't just London-centric, and reaches the provinces (Wales, S. West, Midlands etc...)

Other Comments by fsm1965

257. Comment #268637 by hungarianelephant on October 22, 2008 at 4:32 am

Maybe it's just me, but I found some of the discussion around the 42 minute mark absolutely hilarious. Stephen Green knows about the lake of fire, but doesn't have a notion what goes on there. And, ladies and gentleman, he won't be finding out because he, Stephen Green, is one of the chosen.

Really, listening to these people tie themselves in knots is great fun. Well done to the BBC. I'll support the new licence fee after all.

(As found by Dr Doctor:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00f0x8g )

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

258. Comment #268639 by scottishgeologist on October 22, 2008 at 4:34 am

Quetz

Do you think the media seek him out (as he is now sort of "famous") Or do you think he pushes himself forward "Hey , media, listen to what *I* have to say..."

Never quite sure with these types which way it is.

As Billy would say, the guys a fud....

:-))
SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

259. Comment #268640 by gcdavis on October 22, 2008 at 4:37 am

What a waste!

An ill-thought out concept and a truly pathetic slogan, surley there is someone with some PR/Advertising experience to stop wasting this golden opportunity.

Other Comments by gcdavis

260. Comment #268642 by Quetzalcoatl on October 22, 2008 at 4:39 am

Hungarian Elephant-

Stephen Green knows about the lake of fire, but doesn't have a notion what goes on there

That made me laugh. I mean, just what exactly does he think might happen to anyone cast into a lake of fire? It's pretty much a no-brainer.

SG-

Do you think the media seek him out (as he is now sort of "famous") Or do you think he pushes himself forward "Hey , media, listen to what *I* have to say..."

I suspect the BBC has sought him out, as comments from him have also appeared in the BBC's online article on the subject.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

261. Comment #268643 by devout_heathen on October 22, 2008 at 4:40 am

That Richard Bacon interview is a classic. Stephen Green is a world-class expert at making himself look like a complete twit, and Richard Bacon was very fair and balanced but even he couldn't believe the nonsense Green was spewing.

My favourite bit (around 43 minutes in): Bacon asks Stephen Green whether a good, charitable person who saves lives but doesn't believe in god due to a lack of scientific evidence would burn for eternity... to which Green responds with the following:

"Well, I don't believe that there's a lack of evidence because I came to faith through looking at the ducks on a pond."

Hallelujah! That's the end of atheism for me, then!

What a moron...

Other Comments by devout_heathen

262. Comment #268644 by hungarianelephant on October 22, 2008 at 4:49 am

265. Comment #268643 by devout_heathen on October 22, 2008 at 4:40 am

"Well, I don't believe that there's a lack of evidence because I came to faith through looking at the ducks on a pond."

In fairness, that's how I came to my faith that a Boeing 737 will fly. I could do all the maths supporting the physics, but sometimes you need to be able to humanise these concepts a bit.

Quite how it leads you to the conclusion that God exists is a bit of a mystery. "I can't understand why ducks have tufts on their heads, therefore God exists." Some logical error in there, perhaps. Argumentum ad anatidam, anyone?

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

263. Comment #268645 by Vaal on October 22, 2008 at 4:49 am

devout_heathen

"Well, I don't believe that there's a lack of evidence because I came to faith through looking at the ducks on a pond

Obviously a quack! :)

Other Comments by Vaal

264. Comment #268646 by Daydream Believer on October 22, 2008 at 4:51 am

I love the concept - straight and to the point - I'm in marketing and advertising and I think its fine - does what it says on the tin, respectful and intriguing in the use of 'probably' - invites discussion without being aggressive

Other Comments by Daydream Believer

265. Comment #268647 by vijikumar on October 22, 2008 at 4:57 am

Slogan suggestion:

Reduce sectarianism among children
Remove dogma from education

Other Comments by vijikumar

266. Comment #268648 by devout_heathen on October 22, 2008 at 4:57 am

Comment #268645 by Vaal:

Obviously a quack! :)

Beslis. :-)

Seriously, though, if I hadn't already made my donation yesterday morning, I would've done so today just on the strength of Stephen Green's comments.

He's probably one of the best recruitment officers we have. :-)

Other Comments by devout_heathen

267. Comment #268649 by hungarianelephant on October 22, 2008 at 4:58 am

264. Comment #268642 by Quetzalcoatl on October 22, 2008 at 4:39 am

That made me laugh. I mean, just what exactly does he think might happen to anyone cast into a lake of fire? It's pretty much a no-brainer.

Since we know that God is English, I suspect it's three two-hour sessions of torture by burning daily, with breaks for lunch and tea. Of course there would be additional drinks breaks in each session, except during Ramadan. And if the Australians are present, torture will only take place on three out of every five days.

During winter, the inhabitants will go to a slightly warmer area with a bumpier lake.

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

268. Comment #268650 by BillySands on October 22, 2008 at 4:59 am

This cheered me up. It's about time we struck back at the mind blowing stupidity that you see on religious posters. The ones bugging my tits the most at the minute are "You make Jesus cry" and "Harvest, a taste of god's goodness"

I see the words "David Robertson", "is", "a" and "fud" all appear on the same page - coincidence or god trying to tell us something?

Well, christians have been taking "prophetic" verses out of context for millenia.

Actually, talking about rev walloper puss, there is a sign outside one of his churches that says "one day every man will give account of himself before god" Shouldn't such blatant misadvertising be made illegal?

Where is he anyway? This is the kind of article that brings him out of his box to smear "atheist fundamentalists" all of the screen in his own excrement as he invites his sheep to pull his finger and sniff.

Other Comments by BillySands

269. Comment #268651 by scottishgeologist on October 22, 2008 at 5:04 am

Hey, re Stephen Green and the ducks:-

Maybe this gives a clue:

http://www.doesgodexist.org/MayJun04/DuckFeet.html

In particular the last point:

Ducks have numerous devices which allow them to survive in all kinds of conditions. God's wisdom and planning is seen in everything around us--even duck feet.

:-)))
SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

270. Comment #268652 by Tyler Durden on October 22, 2008 at 5:09 am

there is a sign outside one of his churches that says "one day every man will give account of himself before god" Shouldn't such blatant misadvertising be made illegal?

Billy,

I've seen nonsense like that all over Dublin city, yet after I checked the Irish Advertising Standards, guess what, you can say what you want within the context of religion. Well, fancy that.

Other Comments by Tyler Durden

271. Comment #268654 by God fearing Atheist on October 22, 2008 at 5:11 am

Money placed where mouth is.

Its fun to watch the total clock up by hitting "refresh"

Other Comments by God fearing Atheist

272. Comment #268655 by BillySands on October 22, 2008 at 5:13 am

Hey, re Stephen Green and the ducks:-

That is almost as bad as that muppet with the banana http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1684829

Shame they are not that well designed for fighting off Duck Virus Enteritis (aka duck plague). DVE - perfectly designed by god to kill ducks

Other Comments by BillySands

273. Comment #268656 by scottishgeologist on October 22, 2008 at 5:18 am

Hey, more on ducks:

http://biblestudies.suite101.com/article.cfm/first_commandment_for_kids

In particular, note this extremely bizarre and disturbing image:

http://images.suite101.com/398057_com_imprint.jpg

:-)))
SG

Billy, I like the DVE bit - almost sounds like that "DV" thing (Deo Volente) that the faithheads come out with.

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

274. Comment #268657 by BillySands on October 22, 2008 at 5:18 am

Tyler,

Since many like DR try and claim atheism is a religion, I propose we make one of the tenets we are supposed to have "god is a c**ksucker" and use the freedom of religious advertising toput it on buses :-)

Other Comments by BillySands

275. Comment #268658 by hungarianelephant on October 22, 2008 at 5:20 am

The argumentum ad arienam is easily answered with the argumentum ad c. nuciferam, viz. "presumably God was having an off day when he designed the coconut".

Other Comments by hungarianelephant

276. Comment #268659 by BillySands on October 22, 2008 at 5:25 am

That imprinting stuff reminds me of Dawkins in the root of all evil talking about how if you accidently stand on an imprinted bird (think it was a gosling) that it ran even closer to you (the thing that hurt it) He then went on to say how religion was similar. I have certainly seen this in practice where people get in a mess over religion and turn even more to religion and get in even more of a mess.

And what is wrong with that ducks head (other than a touch of religion)

Other Comments by BillySands

277. Comment #268660 by scottishgeologist on October 22, 2008 at 5:27 am

Billy:

Re "God is a c*cksucker"

Did John Lennon not once sing "God is a c*nt" ?

In the song "God" , JL sings "God is a concept" but the way it sounds (cant beleive it isnt deliberate), it comes out like something else

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=P5K1L2uAVxE

:-))
SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

278. Comment #268661 by Celestial_Teapot on October 22, 2008 at 5:28 am

hahahahaha

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279. Comment #268662 by gcdavis on October 22, 2008 at 5:37 am

Daydream Believer

Who is the target audience, what is the goal, what is the wider strategy?

Other Comments by gcdavis

280. Comment #268663 by Steve Zara on October 22, 2008 at 5:38 am

Donated. Thank goodness Richard only agreed to match up to 5,500.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

281. Comment #268666 by AdrianB on October 22, 2008 at 5:47 am

Now we can all discuss the merits of this campaign, and the wording of the slogan, but we will be missing the most important thing about this message ...

I have just been taking to my daughter at school. They have been talking about it, and guess what ... they all think it's cool.

:)

Other Comments by AdrianB

282. Comment #268668 by bamboospitfire on October 22, 2008 at 5:49 am

Apologies if this issue has been addressed in the preceding pages (which I haven't read) but I would have preferred it if the sign said "There is almost certainly no god", which more accurately reflects the thinking. "Probably" just means >50%.

Other Comments by bamboospitfire

283. Comment #268669 by Melusine on October 22, 2008 at 5:53 am

I love the idea and I think it's a rather amusing way of making ourselves known, but don't you all think that all the money given there should be better spent buying AIDS treatment for African countries/ protecting ex-Muslims now threatened of death for apostasy/ buying books for underprivileged children? All these actions are intrinsically linked to atheistic causes, and they are truly beneficial to mankind.

Richard, now that atheism has had its time of London-bus glory, should we direct the donations towards even more worthy causes?

Clementine

Other Comments by Melusine

284. Comment #268670 by Jane Tomlinson on October 22, 2008 at 5:56 am

In reply to

256. Comment #268631 by Vaal on October 22, 2008 at 4:15 am
Jane, How did that go?

It went very well, Vaal. I felt privileged to be there. They spoke for just about an hour - I'd liked it to have been three times as long! (Especially as Lennox bumbled on for so long.) I blogged about it here:
http://www.janetomlinson.com/journal/index.php?id=476

(Am I allowed to put links in? - sorry, I'm new here and just working out the etiquette!)

Looking forward to Richard's lecture tomorrow now!

Other Comments by Jane Tomlinson

285. Comment #268671 by Styrer- on October 22, 2008 at 5:57 am

I don't know if anyone else trying to access the link provided by Dr Doctor to the Bacon discussion has found like me only a riveting talk about Blue Peter and the Madonna divorce instead. If so, here's another link (starts around 05:30 mins in):

http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/episode/b00f0wzc/Richard_Bacon_20102008/

Best,
Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

286. Comment #268672 by Gmork on October 22, 2008 at 5:59 am

I am Gmork of Norway, and I approve this message.
Submitting some of my godless money shortly.

The John Lennon song--I was not aware of it, though there were no special reasons for me to have heard it.

On a similar note I discovered the song Psalm from Anne Clark's latest album, which beautifully opens with "I don't need your god".

Here are the lyrics, as best I could transcribe them (the album sleeve wasn't 100 % accurate either).

I don't need your god.
I don't need your eternal, paternal god.

Don't need your reassuringly protective,
good and evil in perspective god.

Don't need no imported, distorted, inflated, updated holy roller, save your soul, or anaesthetisingly opiate god.

Don't need no, "All creatures that on earth do dwell; be good or you go to hell" god.

Don't need no "Hare Krishna! Hare Krishna! Hail Mary! Hail Mary!" god.

Got no yen for zen, Bhagavad Gita, or gurus.

No mormons, methodists, seventh-day adventist gods. Go absolutes beyond refutes--the reverential, preferential, Judaic, messianic god.

No bibles, no mahajanas, instant dharma gods.

Don't need no spiritual suicide, prefrontal lobotomizing god.
Don't need no stoic, sexless, antiseptic god.
Don't need no neon crucifix.
No crusade, no burka, or kabbalah.
No camels, or needles, or papal decrees.
No mail order icons, korans or mandalas.
No Meher Babas.
No imams or ayatollahs.

No sharia.
No opus dei.
No dianetics.
No tarot or beads.
No devadasi.
No immortal, invisible "God's only wise."

Don't need no televised, circumcised, incessant, incandescent gods.
I don't need your gods.

I need human beings.
The beasts of the field,
the earth and the stars.

I need some kind of love.
I need you.

Anne Clark on the lyrics: "Spirituality is not religion. Religion is not spirituality. Spirituality is not politics. Religion is politics.
Where and in what does the universe tell us to structure our beliefs into bigotry, intolerance, hatred and violence?
I have no way of proving or dis-proving the existence of a God. Have you?
We all know love. We all know pain. These are our shared certainties.
I first discovered Andrew Darlington's words back around 1980. Now, nearly 30 years later, their relevance could not be more timely or profound."

Other Comments by Gmork

287. Comment #268674 by BillySands on October 22, 2008 at 6:01 am

Melusine,

Part of the problem with AIDS is that catholic doctrine facilitates the spread of HIV.

If there is money left over, then how about more buses and more cities.

SG, unfortunately the sound is not working on my work PC. Have you seen the fuss about the "satanic dolls" though. http://strawmen-cometh.blogspot.com/2008/10/satan-is-king.html

Other Comments by BillySands

288. Comment #268675 by gcdavis on October 22, 2008 at 6:02 am

AdrianB

You're talking about it of course. "Preaching" to the converted! But who is it the ad is trying to affect? The underlying strategy of any good ad should always be evident

Also the problem isn't god, it is religion. I have friends who are deists, no problem, it doesnt inform their actions

Other Comments by gcdavis

289. Comment #268683 by Melusine on October 22, 2008 at 6:16 am

Billy Sands - I know the church is partly responsible for HIV spreading, which is exactly why atheist associations could counteract them by bringing medication and condoms where the priests say they shouldn't use them.

I just don't feel comfortable seeing all this money going into advertising. I'd much rather see The Origin of Species and His Dark Materials brought to African primary and secondary schools, instead of the omnipresent Bible.

Other Comments by Melusine

290. Comment #268686 by Vaal on October 22, 2008 at 6:18 am

288. Comment #268670 by Jane Tomlinson

Thanks for that Jane. Great picture of the T-Rex looking as if it is about to gobble Professor Dawkins. Absolutely, point a link to your blog, great to hear from somebody who was at the lecture, to get a view of the event and its atmosphere. There are some great blogs on this site, don't ever be afraid of posting yours :)

Yep, I envy you going to Richards lecture tomorrow. I presume you are going to post on your blog about it? Anybody else going?

Other Comments by Vaal

291. Comment #268688 by Ian Bamlett on October 22, 2008 at 6:20 am

My contribution:

(Copy link and paste into your browser - it won't open direct from the site)

http://lh5.ggpht.com/redsquirrel2007/RxJnOJ-GXDI/AAAAAAAAAJM/_2gRS9eR7WQ/LondonBus-IslamisBollocks[6].jpg

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

292. Comment #268689 by Quetzalcoatl on October 22, 2008 at 6:21 am

Vaal-

There are a few from the site heading to the lecture tomorrow, myself included. I'll probably blog about it on Friday as well.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

293. Comment #268690 by Vaal on October 22, 2008 at 6:24 am

Quetz

Excellent. Are you going to take some pictures? I wonder if Mr Robertson is going? :)

Other Comments by Vaal

294. Comment #268691 by mmurray on October 22, 2008 at 6:24 am

Donated. Must stand by the mother country in her time of need! Felt nearly as good as donating to Ayaan Hirsi Ali. We need more atheist charities.

Michael

Other Comments by mmurray

295. Comment #268692 by God fearing Atheist on October 22, 2008 at 6:27 am

#268683 by Melusine

I just don't feel comfortable seeing all this money going into advertising. I'd much rather see The Origin of Species and His Dark Materials brought to African primary and secondary schools, instead of the omnipresent Bible.

There is a (military) saying, which I will (badly) paraphrase:

"It is better to vigerously execute a adequate plan than to half-heartedly persue a perfect plan."

The atheist "herd of cats" could spend eternity formulating the best use of money, best slogans etc, however, this campaign is doing something ...

Other Comments by God fearing Atheist

296. Comment #268694 by Quetzalcoatl on October 22, 2008 at 6:30 am

Vaal-

I'm about three miles from the stage, but fortunately my camera has a zoom function. I'll also probably take some pictures at the RD.net shindig that's going to happen after the lecture.

Other Comments by Quetzalcoatl

297. Comment #268696 by Ian Bamlett on October 22, 2008 at 6:34 am

Comment #268692 by God fearing Atheist

The atheist "herd of cats" could spend eternity formulating the best use of money, best slogans etc, however, this campaign is doing something ...

Exactly my feelings. We can talk a good game amoungst ourselves; but in order to get people who do not frequent sites like this to think we must be seen to be acting. If only one person infected with the mind virus of religion is prompted to question what they previously would never have thought to question it will have been worth it. For me it's all about raising peoples awareness to the fact that their is an alternative to their religion.

Other Comments by Ian Bamlett

298. Comment #268699 by eruditeguy on October 22, 2008 at 6:34 am

Although this a commendable project, its message "now stop worrying and enjoy life" would imply to those tortured souls drenched in guilt that all atheists are hedonists. Perhaps a more solemn message could have been designed?

Other Comments by eruditeguy

299. Comment #268703 by tieInterceptor on October 22, 2008 at 6:48 am

well, I just donated 25quid, plus 7 in taxes?

looks like the donations keep coming fast... it's funny to check what people write on the donations list.

http://www.justgiving.com/atheistbus?from=UKSponsorExit

amazing, feels good to help,

then again I feel inadecuate next to Dr. Doctors 666 antichrist punds,

Other Comments by tieInterceptor

300. Comment #268707 by Dr Doctor on October 22, 2008 at 6:56 am

*cringe* I'm sorry about that. If it makes it any better it comes from a tax rebate.

If anyone wants to see their blood pressure rise, check out the comments on Ariane's article on the guardian.

About 1/3 the way down the page.

All 1419 of them.

Most of them are just excuses for ad hom on Dawkins, self indulgent preening, condescending scum.

But the sheer volume of religious foot bullets and also "I'm an atheist but ... [this is too strident]" comments on there from obvious fundies flying under a false flag.

Someone does something vaguely positive and definitely harmless and it provokes all this?

Now, tell me again why the campaign is going to be ineffective? The mere start of it has provoked a massive debate and has shaken the tree of the smug.

Other Comments by Dr Doctor

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