51. Comment #370086 by Richard Dawkins on April 26, 2009 at 1:24 am

Please look at the website of AHS, the organization alleged by Jonathan Wynne-Jones in the Daily Telegraph's, to be 'targeting schools'.
http://www.ahsstudents.org.uk/
You will see that AHS is a federation of UNIVERSITY students with, as far as I can tell, no interest in SCHOOLS at all. Indeed, I searched for the word 'school' on every page of their website. I found only two occurrences, both of them from the same quote by AC Grayling:

A situation where the religious beliefs of a few may dictate the personal choices of everyone – in abortion, for example, or assisted suicide – is quite wrong. Yet some religious groups defend and even aim to expand their considerable privileges - public money for their "faith-based" schools, seats in the House of Lords, exemption from laws inconvenient to their prejudices. The AHS shows that increasing numbers of young people are unwilling to put up with it.

Jonathan Wynne-Jones, the Daily Telegraph's Religious Affairs Correspondent, would appear to be Lying for Jesus. Not for the first time. See
http://richarddawkins.net/article,3565,Poll-reveals-public-doubts-over-Charles-Darwins-theory-of-evolution,Jonathan-Wynne-Jones-Telegraph-UK#331345
There you'll find a detailed account of another egregious lie by Wynne-Jones, in which he said that I used the phrase 'pig-ignorant' about British people who subscribed to some form of creationism. In fact, I had used 'pig-ignorant', in an e-mail to Wynne-Jones, to describe the 19% of people who believe the Earth takes one month to orbit the sun.

If any members of AHS read this, I wonder whether they could write in and confirm whether this story of Wynne-Jones about 'targeting schools' is also a straight lie (as I suspect) or not (as I half hope). I say 'half hope' because, setting aside the loaded word 'target', I would like to campaign for more critical thinking in schools. I want young people to be free to make up their own minds, without indoctrination. As I have said many times before, children should not be instructed to be atheists, any more than they should be instructed to be Christians or Muslims. They should be taught how to evaluate evidence critically, and encouraged to make up their own minds. The present status quo is that very large numbers of them are being systematically indoctrinated in the religion of their parents or schools.

In any case, whether AHS confines itself to universities or whether it really is interested in schools too, it seems to me clearly worthy of our strong support. Please support AHS, especially if you are a student, and perhaps think seriously about joining them, or opening a membership society in your own university. The website contains a list of member societies, which at present includes groups at the universities of Aberdeen, Durham, Edinburgh, Keele, Leeds, Oxford (two member societies), Southampton, Solent, Sussex, Liverpool and Warwick.
http://www.ahsstudents.org.uk/members
That leaves a lot of other universities so far without membership. For information on how to start up a membership group at your university, see http://www.ahsstudents.org.uk/membership
If you need a little money to help start up your university secular or atheist society, RDFRS might be able to help.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

52. Comment #370087 by Styrer- on April 26, 2009 at 1:30 am

Comment #370064 by Richard Dawkins on April 25, 2009 at 10:09 pm

Only possibilty I can think of is that it may be a response to the contemptible bullshit Terry Eagleton vomited yesterday:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2009/apr/25/liberal-islam

and so requiring some kind of re-balance, by way of the above article.

If not, then I've no idea at all. You're a celeb, I suppose: live with it.

I occasionally find myself feeling sorry for you, but I suppose my brother is right in telling me never to feel sorry for anyone with their own telly programme.

Styrer

Other Comments by Styrer-

53. Comment #370090 by rod-the-farmer on April 26, 2009 at 1:46 am

I live on 85 acres (35 hectares) and contacted Camp Quest Ontario to see if they have found a location for their project yet.

Other Comments by rod-the-farmer

54. Comment #370094 by jabber on April 26, 2009 at 2:22 am

I'm not sure i believe this - it seems peculiarly implausible (not to mention downright 'un-British').

is it possible that best way to have a school club about atheism is simply not to mention god at all - in the same way that they wouldn't mention faeries, leprachauns, et al.

Nothing focusses the mind on God better than thinking about 'it'.

I am uneasy, because it sounds almost like two adults with opposite positions using 'custody of the children' as a sign of victory. i know it isn't meant that way - but i feel uneasy, nonetheless. Each side thinks the motive is to 'save the children' - but what lengths should we go to to save them....at what point does 'enforced salvation' become the abuse?

If it not to be enforced, who will attend these events - certainly not the children of parents who are vehemently opposed to atheism.

What we need is teachers with the balls when asked (or informed) "But, sir, the Universe is only 6000 years old.." to reply:
"No. It isn't" and then show why it isn't is a better way.

"Sir, My dad says that every word of the Bible/Koran etc is the directly dictated word of God"

"Well - he's wrong"

That aside - if, as Richard says, this is about UNIVERSITY students selecting/forming their own societies and events - then who is doing the targetting and who/what is the target?

Other Comments by jabber

55. Comment #370096 by decius on April 26, 2009 at 2:26 am

Comment #370086 by Richard Dawkins

If he is indeed lying for jebus, we should strive to cleanse his soul from this lamentable sin and turn his fabrication into a prophecy.

Other Comments by decius

56. Comment #370098 by black wolf on April 26, 2009 at 2:41 am

Richard,
I fully agree that children can and should be taught to demand evidence, at least for claims that are so outrageously fantastic as many that come with the religious morality package.
However as we know such demands are routinely met with the assertion that 'evidence' is some sort of implicitly or explicitly inferior or inadequate part of appreciating reality. That is the field on which adults must play, to publically challenge this viewpoint at every turn. As the blog writers for 'The Atheist Experience' put it, emotion is not a cognitive tool. That the contrary is True is the subtext of the religious message, and it needs exposure and dismantling.

You are one of still too few who are doing a marvelous job in this regard. I will do a small part today by voting against religious segregation in public school education in my city.

Other Comments by black wolf

57. Comment #370099 by ahmunnaeetchoo on April 26, 2009 at 2:50 am

If only i had known there was a form of atheist society in durham univeristy a year ago! Unless it formed very recently, they can't have done a great job on promotion! I wish then all the best though. I remember seeing this on a hoody:

Christian
Union
No
Thankyou
Sir

Hope that wasn't them....

Other Comments by ahmunnaeetchoo

58. Comment #370102 by scottishgeologist on April 26, 2009 at 3:11 am

Richard

I checked out the AFS site and there appears to be no mention of schools there. However, if you follow the link to the blog:

http://blogs.secularportal.com/2009/04/26/coverage-of-atheist-initiatives-in-press-depressingly-familiar/

"The AHS will be seeking corrections from the Sunday Telegraph after the paper misrepresented the AHS’ new schools initiative.."

And at the bottom of the blog entry there is:

"The AHS has already been approached by a number of schools who would like to take part in their first schools conference in June at Warwick University"

So it would appear that tey do have an interest in schools. Actually I would be surprised if they didnt really, since schools are where the majority of next years University students are going to be from

However, it is a far cry from "having an interest in school students" to the sort of invective in the Telegraph article.

One final point. It has been said before and is worth repeating. The first lesson in ANY science class should be in the concept of the Scientific Method and Critical Thinking. Establish the correct framework and modus operandi right from the start. Let everything else follow from it.

Many people pass through university level education without even hearing about the S.M. even students reading science. In fact, I often wonder, do a lot of people first come across the concept of the S.M. through visiting web sites like this!!

:-)
SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

59. Comment #370103 by Logicel on April 26, 2009 at 3:15 am

Logician @ 32

Spelling aside, Mr. Zara, yes, given the right circumstances, your 'friend' would kill you outright for your atheism.
_______

Given the 'right' circumstances, an atheist would kill an atheist. Also please keep in mind that people of one religion have risked their life in order to save the lives of people of other religions, for example, Christian Europeans saving Europeans Jews during the Holocaust. It is not outside the realm of possibility that some Christians would save the lives of their atheist friends if necessary.

I regard secularists and atheists having have fallen asleep at the wheel the last thirty years regarding religion. I, myself, have made a commitment that I will not do that again until the day I die. In that regard, I agree that we need to see the other side's stuff, no matter how banal.

Other Comments by Logicel

60. Comment #370106 by scottishgeologist on April 26, 2009 at 3:22 am

ahmunnaeetchoo

That reminds me of gravestone which had written on it:

Free your body and soul
Unfold your powerful wings
Climb up the highest mountains
Kick your feet up in the air
You may now live forever
Or return to this earth
Unless you feel good where you are!

Pic of it on Snopes:

http://www.snopes.com/photos/signs/headstone.asp

:-)))
SG

Other Comments by scottishgeologist

61. Comment #370114 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 4:00 am

Dear Richard - thank you for spotting this and posting/commenting on it so promptly. Below is a link to our blog response and here is our response to the newspaper. I've also emailed you at contact@richarddawkins.net

The AHS wishes to correct the Sunday Telegraph after the paper misrepresented the AHS’ new schools initiative, which encompasses fostering interfaith events, scientific and religious educational activities and charity work.

The AHS does not and would never seek to challenge religious education in the manner that article suggests. The AHS strongly believes in the importance of a balanced, impartial and full religious education and would support the introduction of a national RE curriculum to ensure standards are met.

In brief, here is a summary of the purpose of helping students found their own atheist, humanist and secularist groups:

- To teach students how to debate and create dialogue between school faith groups.

- Provide the school with fun and educational events and activities, including two student-led courses: ‘Perspectives’ in which a speaker from a faith group gives a talk followed by Q&A, and our ‘One Life’ course, which considers moral and ethical issues without god. Many events will also support the scientific curriculum.

- Encourage charity volunteering.

- Give students the experience of running a group and managing events.

- Show students that it’s ok not to believe in god and encourage critical thinking.

- Bring out issues concerning religious privilege in schools such as collective worship and incomplete or biased religious education.

The AHS hopes that by drawing attention to this we can set aside caricatures of both sides (religious and nonreligious) and encourage more meaningful debate to take place in the public sphere.

The AHS has already been approached by a number of schools who would like to take part in their first schools conference in June at Warwick University. If you would like to get involved, please contact secretary@ahsstudents.org.uk

Find out more:
www.ahsstudents.org.uk
www.camp-quest.org.uk

And also: http://blogs.secularportal.com/2009/04/26/coverage-of-atheist-initiatives-in-press-depressingly-familiar/

Other Comments by Chloe AHS

62. Comment #370116 by Logician on April 26, 2009 at 4:12 am

@ Logicel:
Agreed, on both counts.
However, I have had spittle sprayed on me by "Christians" who scream right in my face their "right" under "god" to kill my daughter, simply because she is a lesbian.
Do I break bread with them£ You must be kidding.
I do watch them, though, and I am thankful my society is still at least ostensibly secular by law.
While I have had disagreements with othere atheists over the years (we are all different, thank goodness) not one ever threatened to kill me simply because I live differently than they do.
This tells me much more about religion and its effects than any number of altruistic acts that could be performed by anyone.

Other Comments by Logician

63. Comment #370124 by Richard Dawkins on April 26, 2009 at 4:46 am

Thanks to Chloe of the AHS for clarifying this (Comment #370114). I am delighted to hear that you really are planning an initiative in schools, and that you plan to do the exact opposite of the indoctrination that faith schools indulge in. Please let me know if RDFRS can help.
Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

64. Comment #370126 by Ellis Pugh on April 26, 2009 at 4:49 am

ahmunnaeetchoo,

Durham Humanists are very new- this is our first year so you just missed us, and actually I like to think we've done an alright job at promotion (we got into the telegraph in our first year :S), AC Grayling payed us a visit and we've run a weeklong series of events under the banner 'Reason Week' to name a few.

Like the hoodie, but we went with the slightly less provocative 'There probably is no god so stop worrying and enjoy your life' haha.

Regarding the article, I'm amazed that anyone could have twisted the AHS's aims so far as to make us sound like a millitant group. What a load of .... and even if it were true (which it isn't) also very hypocritical given religions own record at 'targeting' children.

The AHS is a very worthwhile organisation 'more than another candle in the dark, it is a whole candelabrum' according to Professor Grayling. It provides for a large number of non-theistic societies and their student members a great deal of support and representation, which considering the almost viral presence of a whole panoply of religious groups on campus, can only be a good thing.

Other Comments by Ellis Pugh

65. Comment #370129 by ahmunnaeetchoo on April 26, 2009 at 5:14 am

That sounds brilliant Ellis, sad i missed it. Maybe i should reconsider that masters!! There really does seem to be a surge in active atheism (it hits you when it's close to home).

I really like how the AHS have included faith talks. I can't imagine the opposite has ever happened (religious campaigns giving time to atheism).

Other Comments by ahmunnaeetchoo

66. Comment #370130 by Dark Matter on April 26, 2009 at 5:16 am

"Leeds Atheist Society claims to have experienced discrimination, vandalism, theft and death threats from religious groups on campus, who oppose the open expression of an atheist viewpoint and blasphemy."

I found this rather worrying. Does anyone know the details?




Dark Matter.

Other Comments by Dark Matter

67. Comment #370132 by Ellis Pugh on April 26, 2009 at 5:34 am

Dark Matter,

You should ask them- they have a website. It ranges from actually scary death threats to someone vandalising their 'there is no god' poster so that it read 'there is no god but Allah.'

ahmunnaeetchoo,

That would be interesting wouldn't it? Needless to say I've never been invited to speak by DICCU. :(

Other Comments by Ellis Pugh

68. Comment #370133 by Steve Zara on April 26, 2009 at 5:35 am

Comment #370051 by j.mill

I think we're generally bright enough around here to assess what we're reading, Steve!

Perhaps it is worth pointing out that I wasn't bright enough. At least not at first.

I read "It wants the societies to hold talks and educational events to persuade students not to believe in God." and thought "I say, that is a bit militant!"

However, my suspicions were aroused when I notice it was from the daily telegraph, which provides a background that many of us British will understand, but perhaps others overseas and new to the site might not. A cursory glance at the article would have left me with a mistaken impression about what the situation was.

The comments by Richard and from the AHS have given the context, and it seems that something very positive could result from the posting of this article. Which, I guess, should shut me up.

But I do sometimes think it might be helpful for an editor to provide a sentence or two along with articles like this to give the context, even if it is only "silly right-wing paper gets it wrong again". For those of us who can be slow on the uptake.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

69. Comment #370135 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 5:37 am

To Richard - Thank you very much for your response. I'm sure there are ways the RDFRS will be able to help and it would be wonderful to work together. Obviously your involvement will get a lot of students excited about the cause! We're already intending to work with Camp Quest on the initiative - I gather you met Sam Stein at American Atheists - and we're having a meeting with the BHA next week to get things rolling. I'll be in touch with more info after that time. Thanks for the support!

To Dark Matter - It's all true i'm afraid! The death threats were from members of the uni Muslim society regarding a free speech debate in which the famous Danish cartoons were to be shown. The vandalism was them too - that is, I'm not sure if there was definitive proof on that one, but who else is going to vandalise a banner which reads 'there is no god' with the appendage 'but Allah'.

That said, Leeds are the most active and innovative society in the country and they're strongly involved in the AHS. They've just held their 3rd annual 'Rationalist Week' Here's a link http://www.ahsstudents.org.uk/press/releases/2

Other Comments by Chloe AHS

70. Comment #370139 by Romaholic on April 26, 2009 at 6:15 am

It will coincide with the first atheist summer camp for children that will teach that religious belief and doctrines can prevent ethical and moral behaviour.

Eh? I think that religion has no effect on your morals at all. This seems sort of fishy- but then the telegraph is reporting it so it could mean anything.

Other Comments by Romaholic

71. Comment #370142 by Stella on April 26, 2009 at 6:50 am

I wish I'd been smart enough to start a group like this in my school when I looked around at my classmates and realized that no, I was not a Christian.

Other Comments by Stella

72. Comment #370145 by Mark Jones on April 26, 2009 at 7:04 am

Comment #370135 by Chloe AHS

Keep up the good work!

Other Comments by Mark Jones

73. Comment #370147 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 7:06 am

Romaholic - yes, that line is straight out of the writer's addled little right-wing, apologist brain. What Camp Quest actually does is provide kids with a fun week camping at an activity centre, during which, outdoor activities like rafting are interspersed with exercises in critical thinking and understanding the difference between scientific reasoning and faith-based arguments. Here's their website: www.camp-quest.org.uk - you'll notice it's in banners around this site too.

Other Comments by Chloe AHS

74. Comment #370149 by The Hogfather on April 26, 2009 at 7:35 am

Chloe AHS-

It sounds like a fantastic initiative. I concur with the sentiments of many of the other posters, and wish you the best of luck with this project.

Its very sad to hear about the the Leeds Atheist society. Do we know if there are any other local Atheist societies around the country that have experienced this sort of thing?

Other Comments by The Hogfather

75. Comment #370150 by Roger Stanyard on April 26, 2009 at 7:39 am

That said, Leeds are the most active and innovative society in the country and they're strongly involved in the AHS. They've just held their 3rd annual 'Rationalist Week' Here's a link http://www.ahsstudents.org.uk/press/releases/2

Doesn't surprise me. BCSE knows through the grapevine that very senior people at Leeds University don't think much of Andy McIntosh's lead role in trying to get creationism taught in school science lessons. It's bringing the university into disrepute. I suspect that many of the students whoe are involved in AHS reflect the unease at Leeds.

Other Comments by Roger Stanyard

76. Comment #370151 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 7:43 am

There have been plenty of others that have experienced unfair treatment from their SUs. Warwick were stripped of their 'best new society' award - including prize money - when an event poster drew a few complaints. Southampton have had a hell of a week muslims and free speech. I was supposed to make that news today but then this came up! I'll put the story on here in the next few days.

Anyone who'd like to know more about UK student atheist societies and/or talk to us, please do come to www.secularportal.com - our forums!

Other Comments by Chloe AHS

77. Comment #370152 by LWS on April 26, 2009 at 7:43 am

The notion of Camp Quest irks me. Surely any of our children that are raised in superstition-free homes do not need to attend summer programs promoting no-beliefs. Atheists that I know do not force their children on to their knees at bedtime and make them recite 'there is no god' before going to sleep. Mimicking bible study summer camps is rather demeaning and unnecessary IMO.

For many years I ran summer day camp programs for our local municipality. The recreation department offered children sports, theater & visual arts and outdoor adventure. None of our programs had a religion component nor was the topic raised. Kids came from all backgrounds for fun summer activities. They played and learned new skills together. Isn't that what summer is all about?

Other Comments by LWS

78. Comment #370156 by Ed-words on April 26, 2009 at 8:28 am

The mother of them all (130 chapters)


SECULARSTUDENTS.ORG

Other Comments by Ed-words

79. Comment #370157 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 8:30 am

I'm intrigued to see how it will work and am hoping to go along as a helper to find out. These camps aren't restricted to anyone (although strongly religious parents won't send their kids). My impression is that their content is about critical thinking, being independent and getting interested in science and nature, rather than specifically focusing on why there's no god. And heathens can come from any background! I see your point but I think there's room for these camps too. I'm definitely interested to see what they're like.

Other Comments by Chloe AHS

80. Comment #370160 by Frankus1122 on April 26, 2009 at 8:48 am

78. Comment #370152 by LWS

The notion of Camp Quest irks me. Surely any of our children that are raised in superstition-free homes do not need to attend summer programs promoting no-beliefs

I am not sure there is an outright promotion of "no-beliefs". I do not know what goes on at Camp Quest but I would suspect that they provide "exercises in critical thinking and understanding the difference between scientific reasoning and faith-based arguments," as stated by Chloe AHS.

It seems as though the camp provides education in terms of critical thinking as well as all the other fun summer things. Critical thinking is not exactly promotion of "no-belief".

Or is it?

From my current thinking on the matter, I see an ability to think critically and look at questions of faith skeptically, as inevitably leading to no-belief.

I think that is the scary part for the religious minded. Teaching young people to look at the world skeptically and providing them with the tools to do this, will lead to a lack of faith. Why would you believe in something that makes no sense in terms of everything else you know about the world which is demonstrably true? Now, the Faithful may have reasons for their faith (a bit of an oxymoron), but these reasons ought to be able to stand up to critical inquiry. I don't think they do and that's where teaching skeptical critical thought could be seen as teaching "no-belief". But this is a consequence of the process of rational thought, not a dogmatic assertion of 'fact'.

I see the camp as a place to teach youngsters how to think, not what to think. That is a fundamental difference, and one that makes any comparisons to "bible summer camps" unwarranted.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

81. Comment #370166 by infinitum17 on April 26, 2009 at 9:22 am

word;
I heartily approve of this.
It's cat-herding time!

Other Comments by infinitum17

82. Comment #370192 by ods15 on April 26, 2009 at 12:34 pm

"...first atheist summer camp for children that will teach that religious belief and doctrines can prevent ethical and moral behaviour"

Is this accurate? I certainly hope not... Regardless if I agree with the message - I would much prefer if a kids summer camp focused on positive instead of negative - how the kids themselves can be moral, not point at others and explain how they can be immoral. Also, just have fun...

Other Comments by ods15

83. Comment #370195 by ColdFusionLazarus on April 26, 2009 at 12:39 pm

62. Comment #370114 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 4:00 am
The AHS wishes to correct the Sunday Telegraph after the paper misrepresented the AHS’ new schools initiative, which encompasses fostering interfaith events, scientific and religious educational activities and charity work.

This has gone from something uninteresting to me, to something I'm now quite intrigued about. So there is a AHS initiative for Schools.

Both my children are of secondary school age. My eldest has stated his agnosticism several times, and just recently he seems to be saying more strongly that he does not believe that god exists. That has not stopped him choosing the Religious Studies option for his forthcoming year-10. He's active in school councils and an AHS initiative may be something he may be interested in - asking his school if it will be getting involved. How do I find out more?

Other Comments by ColdFusionLazarus

84. Comment #370203 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 1:01 pm

To ColdFusionLazarus

Thanks very much for your interest. The AHS is a student-run umbrella organisation for atheist, humanist, secularist, free thinking etc student groups. So far we've only been supporting university groups but due to demand from a few 6th forms we're inviting younger students to a schools day at our national conference at Warwick University on Sunday 21st June. We were only going to invite 16-18 yr olds but I'm sure your son won't be the only exception we're asked to consider and i don't see why he shouldn't attend. If he can interest some like-minded older friends in joining him then that's even better.

Because we're organised and run by students rather than institutions, the school won't know about it. The aim of the conference is to bring like-minded students together and encourage them to set up groups in schools/colleges, with the AHS providing them with a network of support, resources and hopefully speakers too. We'll equip them to hold their own talks, debates, religion and ethics courses, film screenings etc

At the conference, the university students will give an introduction and presentation about what the AHS does, and everyone will brainstorm about how it could best help schools and colleges. We'll send students away with society start up packs, plans to help organise and support them and hopefully some new friends from around the country.

press@ahsstudents.org.uk is my email address. Please don't hesitate to contact me. There will be information going up about the event on our website over the next few days.

Other Comments by Chloe AHS

85. Comment #370209 by f0oL on April 26, 2009 at 1:11 pm

52. Comment #370086 by Richard Dawkins


Honest Journalism...

Other Comments by f0oL

86. Comment #370213 by ColdFusionLazarus on April 26, 2009 at 1:18 pm

Chloe,
Thanks for your response. I'll discuss this with my son and see if he can network with some older students about this. It would be fantastic if representatives from his school attended the national conference, and inspired a rationalist group to be set up.

Other Comments by ColdFusionLazarus

87. Comment #370214 by LittleFluffyClouds on April 26, 2009 at 1:19 pm

Frankus-

The theists I know believe that religious belief is rational; they see the resurrection as a verifiable historical fact, believe their friends perform medical miracles by the laying-on-of-hands, and see the 'fine-tuning' of the cosmological constants as hard evidence that the universe had to be designed by an intelligent power. For lack of a better alternative, this power must be YHWH. They don't buy our bullshit that moral feelings that create special feelings can arise from non-special origins.

They would probably agree in principle that a candid evaluation of the evidence would reveal that Christianity was the only game in town.

...because it evidently doesn't, there must be vast conspiracy of secularists to OBSCURE the truth. It's the only sensible conclusion from that viewpoint. My housemate maintains that we're all committed to being objective- when it suits our purposes. Curiously, he wields relativism as a hook to try and drag down science and reason to the level of religion; not a comfortable position for someone who maintains revealed absolute truths, but there it is.

Other Comments by LittleFluffyClouds

88. Comment #370220 by Dark Matter on April 26, 2009 at 1:35 pm

In reply to 35 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 5:37 am

"To Dark Matter - It's all true i'm afraid! The death threats were from members of the uni Muslim society regarding a free speech debate in which the famous Danish cartoons were to be shown. The vandalism was them too - that is, I'm not sure if there was definitive proof on that one, but who else is going to vandalise a banner which reads 'there is no god' with the appendage 'but Allah'


Hello Chloe,

I don't doubt that it's true and really doesn't surprise me in the least.

I find it interesting that the focus for this Telegraph story is a false assertion that "Atheist target UK schools" whilst the bigger story of death threats is only mentioned in passing - Jonathan Wynne-Jone's agenda obscuring genuine journalism IMHO.

Also interesting that there is a generation of students at Leeds who seem to have an anti-enlightenment fanaticism that compel them to make death threats over a free speech debate.

I hope that things go well for you and a big thank you for your heroic efforts to counter ignorance and irrationality.



Dark Matter

Other Comments by Dark Matter

89. Comment #370228 by Frankus1122 on April 26, 2009 at 2:00 pm

88. Comment #370214 by LittleFluffyClouds

I think the problems you outline can be overcome by agreeing on standards of evidence.

Using just one example provided by your theist friends, the 'laying-on-of-hands' can be shown to be as statistically efficacious as placebo; i.e., as useful as nothing. This can be done using standards of evidence that all parties agree to before hand. If we agree that assertions cannot be accepted as fact without evidence, and we agree as to what constitutes evidence, then we ought to be able to reach conclusions acceptable to all parties.

Other Comments by Frankus1122

90. Comment #370236 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 2:19 pm

:D thanks Dark Matter - it's been quite a fun day all in all :D

Other Comments by Chloe AHS

91. Comment #370246 by Tucking_Fypo! on April 26, 2009 at 2:48 pm

How do i get my University to join AHS?

I am in the midst of setting up an Atheist society within my university and have had alot of positive responses to the idea (as well as the normal "you're going to hell" "why can't you believe in Jesus" etc) and would be very interested to get the society involved in such a good cause.

Other Comments by Tucking_Fypo!

92. Comment #370254 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 3:06 pm

Tucking_Fypo! Wonderful to hear from you. Which uni are you at?

Well, I recommend starting by joining our forums www.secularportal.com where you can introduce yourself to all the other societies and have a look at what we do/offer without obligation to join. Or you can just email secretary@ahsstudents.org.uk who will send you membership forms and our society start up pack. Whether or not you sign up you're welcome to come to our conference in June.

Our website, for more info is www.ahsstudents.org.uk

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93. Comment #370259 by Tucking_Fypo! on April 26, 2009 at 3:22 pm

Thanks Chloe AHS! I am at Bangor University, here's a link to the facebook group i have created for the society http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=69949167798&ref=ts#/group.php?gid=69949167798

I have just registered to secular portal and am about to introduce myself. I plan on meeting with people who are interested in the Atheist society and want to help in starting it on thursday which should get the ball rolling. It is not a registered society within the University as of yet as i have only just started advertising and getting support from students who are interested. I sent out an e-mail to everyone in my university and i got a positive reply from around 50 students who are interested in joining the society, so i imagine it being a great success.

Where is the conference being held in June, if i can make it i will most definately be there!

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94. Comment #370271 by Chloe AHS on April 26, 2009 at 4:01 pm

The AHS National Conference is at Warwick University from 19th-21st, hosted by Warwick Atheist Society - one of our founding members.

Congratulations to our first Welsh group!!!

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95. Comment #370276 by Tucking_Fypo! on April 26, 2009 at 4:19 pm

The person whose helping me set up the society is friends with the people who founded the Atheist society in Warwick, so i should be able to get in touch with them easily to ask about accomodation for that weekend.

Thanks for the advice and information :)

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96. Comment #370308 by Stephen Fagg on April 26, 2009 at 8:15 pm

I don't think that any children with Christian parents will send or let their children be sent to an atheist summer camp, just like I don't think children with atheist parents will send or their kids to religious summer camps, like say a scientologist or mormon summer camp. It's good to see religious foundation getting pushed around a little, and after we push it enough it will fall over, and after the religious structure is gone we will all be able to see clearly and openly, really for the first time.

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97. Comment #370310 by Goldy on April 26, 2009 at 8:30 pm

Interesting concept, these camp thingies.
Of course, my kids will never go to one - not my culture. Grandparents, that's where my kids are going to go to :-) Much better and much, much cheaper!

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98. Comment #370338 by latsot on April 27, 2009 at 2:24 am

@Steve

Sometimes, one does have to wonder what is going on at RD.net.

I don't really understand this criticism. The article is clearly labeled as having been reposted from the Telegraph.

I assume it was posted because it has content that is interesting to the community that tends to look at this site and is likely to promote interesting discussion.

As for the foundation commenting on the article, should this really be necessary for this audience? Or even desirable in a foundation that promotes critical thinking?

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99. Comment #370347 by Steve Zara on April 27, 2009 at 3:04 am

Comment #370338 by latsot

I over-reacted, I admit. But what would "re-posted from the telegraph" mean to the majority of readers?

As for the foundation commenting on the article, should this really be necessary for this audience? Or even desirable in a foundation that promotes critical thinking?

This is just my personal opinion, and I don't expect it to be shared but... yes.

The UK journalist and commentator Charlie Brooker has broadcast a programme in which there was a report on what was called "oh dear-ism" in journalism. We tend to get presented with facts that overwhelm us to the point where all we can do is think "oh dear!", or "it's a funny old world".

It may be just my limited imagination, but I get the same reaction to the occasional article here. I am not sure what any kind of discussion of the article would be about, so it is hard to know what "on topic" means. For someone like me, it might help to have a sentence or two about the intention of posting the article, to at least kick off discussion.

My particular concern here was that unless someone knew the nature of the Daily Telegraph, this article might seem to be presenting a factually accurate report.

But I admit this is purely my view, and may be a result of my lacking in imagination, common sense, or whatever.

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100. Comment #370353 by latsot on April 27, 2009 at 3:24 am

Comment #370347 by Steve Zara

Steve,

I know what you mean and I enjoy sites (pharyngula, for instance) that do what you suggest. I also enjoy sites that publish everything that seems interesting without necessarily commenting.

I get these posts via rss feeds, so I organise them into what sort of thing I expect from the feeds. Perhaps if I went into rd.net through front door, it might confuse me in the way you've pointed out.

I don't think you lack common sense or imagination. You may or may not be lacking in whatever :)

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