1. Comment #386153 by JAMCAM87 on June 9, 2009 at 9:53 am

A translation for you:

God's existence is improbable.
That God exists is improbable.
God probably doesn't exist.

All are better than "God is not probable".

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2. Comment #386154 by Rawhard Dickins on June 9, 2009 at 9:54 am

Succinct !

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3. Comment #386158 by SixxSixxSixx on June 9, 2009 at 10:05 am

Thanks for that JAMCAM87. Dennis is obviously not as sure of his Swedish as you are of yours. ;)

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4. Comment #386160 by mig... on June 9, 2009 at 10:09 am

Very swedish... ya

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5. Comment #386163 by Buchner on June 9, 2009 at 10:16 am

How about:

GOD?
NOT LIKELY!

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6. Comment #386164 by mig... on June 9, 2009 at 10:17 am

How about:

Stop this already lame campaign...

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7. Comment #386165 by JAMCAM87 on June 9, 2009 at 10:18 am

Lol was that sarcasm? I don't know any swedish! :)

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8. Comment #386166 by Dhamma on June 9, 2009 at 10:20 am

If it would make the common Swede more interested in atheism, I'd go for it, but to promote atheism in an atheist country seems rather unnecessary. I'd prefer if these ads said why theism is bad, like "Millions have died in the name of god, none in the name of atheism".

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9. Comment #386167 by SixxSixxSixx on June 9, 2009 at 10:23 am

JAMCAM87 Yeah it was. I was just playing. I was worried that you would post straight back in perfect Swedish.

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10. Comment #386168 by Spinoza on June 9, 2009 at 10:25 am

God bad mojo me no like.

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11. Comment #386170 by JAMCAM87 on June 9, 2009 at 10:29 am

tack så mycket

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12. Comment #386172 by SixxSixxSixx on June 9, 2009 at 10:37 am

nyförvärva.

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13. Comment #386177 by Dhamma on June 9, 2009 at 10:47 am

Nu tar vi det lilla lugna, pojkar!

I'd translate it to "There's probably no god", or "God probably doesn't exist"

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14. Comment #386178 by Diogenes of Sinope on June 9, 2009 at 10:52 am

(pointless pedantry alert, feel free to ignore)

A translation for you:

God's existence is improbable.
That God exists is improbable.
God probably doesn't exist.

All are better than "God is not probable".

I don't think that they are necessarily better translations - it may well be that the original sentence in Swedish is purposefully cumbersome and unnatural (possibly for a rhetorical effect I cannot imagine), and so the slightly unwieldy "God is not probable" may be the best English equivalent. However, if JamCam is knowledgable about Swedish (I know none whatsoever), I will readily admit that he may well have supplied more appropriate versions.

Anyway, atheist advertising = good idea, especially if many of the apathetic-ists become atheists, and the traditional respect which is apparently still accorded respect in this publically secular country is worn further down.

EDIT: I see that a native Swedish speaker has affirmed the poor quality of the translation, to whom I humbly defer.

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15. Comment #386179 by meah on June 9, 2009 at 10:52 am

Well, campaigns like this one are important, though I think it could have been done in a better way, as Dhamma wrote. Even though Sweden is fairly non-religious, there are still too many religious maniacs here for my taste(0 maniacs, please).

As for the translation, "God is not probable" is the most accurate in my opinion.

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16. Comment #386185 by JAMCAM87 on June 9, 2009 at 11:21 am

Diogenes,

I don't know any swedish but I can count to 20 in Danish. :)

Meah,

It's not just about what's more accurate, it's also about what sounds good in English and I don't think "God is not probable" sounds good.

Like Dhamma says "There's probably no God" is much better.

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17. Comment #386187 by petermun on June 9, 2009 at 11:33 am

God - no way!

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18. Comment #386191 by JuJu on June 9, 2009 at 11:59 am

To bad Joseph Smith isn't here. He could have used the translation kit he got from the angels to get this exactly right.

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19. Comment #386193 by meah on June 9, 2009 at 12:12 pm

Thanks for your suggestions, JAMCAM87 =)

Here is a translation of the article http://www.resume.se/nyheter/2009/06/08/gud-finns-nog-inte/index.xml

There's probably no God

In London, the campaign initiated a religious war - on advertising signs. Now there is a Swedish version of the campaign, launched by the Swedish Humanist association.

Just as in London, outdoor advertising is the main media. The next following weeks, the campaign that questions the existence of God can be seen in major Swedish cities.

- It is not about us wanting to stop religious communities, but we want to even out the odds. The religious communities receives considerable amounts of money from the government each year. We are dependent on our members, says Christer Sturmark, chairman of the Swedish Humanist Association.

The message is "There's probably no God". Pictures of the star of David, the Islamic moon crescent and the Christian cross are displayed in yellow on a blue background.

- We want people to think and consider the fact that religion does play a larger role in the world than one might think, says Christer Sturmark.

The campaign has been designed by the advertising bureau Frankenstein. They have been paid for their work, though Sturmark hints they have probably spent several unpaid hours in their work with the campaign.

The campaign is sponsored by donations from the members of the Swedish Humanist association.
- Yes. There is a number of members who have donated money. Small as well as larger amounts.

The goal of the campaign is to attract new members. Today there are approximately 5 000 members paying the membership fee of 300 crowns per year.

In London, the religious communities responded by launching their own campaigns.
- It would not surprise me if the religious communities would respond to our campaign too. We welcome them. We would like to get a debate started.

Except the outdoor campagin, the campagin web site http://www.gudfinnsnoginte.se/ , the Swedish Humanist Association will also attend the political meetings traditionally held in Almedalen, as well as the pride festival and the book fair in Gothenburg.

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20. Comment #386196 by Frankus1122 on June 9, 2009 at 12:20 pm

JAMCAM and 666,

This is how my translator translates your exchange:

thanks sow a lot

new to acquire.

Which proves, once and for all, god's existence is most likely not probable.

I think that perhaps it may be the case that god and the existence of him are not compatible with the LOGIC(TM) of the human brain.

When one is extremely tired it is almost like being drugged.

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21. Comment #386197 by Gregg Townsend on June 9, 2009 at 12:20 pm

18. Comment #386191 by JuJu

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Urim_and_Thummim

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22. Comment #386200 by JemyM on June 9, 2009 at 12:34 pm

"God probably doesn't exist." is the best and most accurate translation as far as I concern.

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23. Comment #386201 by Prankster on June 9, 2009 at 12:36 pm

Glad to see the campaign is spreading but out of a country of 9 million and with 7 million saying thy are not religious anyway, it makes me wonder if the campaign itself is a bit of , well, a waste of effort? Not as a whole just ovr in Sweden itself?

Off track my swedish is non-existent but my handy google translator came up with this, which is "there's probably no god" as;

"Det finns troligen ingen Gud"

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24. Comment #386203 by Gustaf Sjoblom on June 9, 2009 at 12:41 pm

To a ton of swedes atheism is so natural that joining the Humanists seems really strange. It would be a lot like joining a "astrology is wrong"-association. Noone wants to be the one who states the absolutely obvious.

I wonder if the campaign will really be able to affect that.

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25. Comment #386206 by Lindenfors on June 9, 2009 at 12:49 pm

The campaign slogan translates to "God probably doesn't exist". There is also a book accompanying the campaign.

The Swedish site for the book is here:
http://www.bokengudfinnsnoginte.se
The English site for the book is here:
http://www.godprobablydoesntexist.com

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26. Comment #386208 by alabasterocean on June 9, 2009 at 12:57 pm

Let me sort it out, I was the source of the problem:

The translation is in full:

God is not likely to show up... he is not likely or probable, expected, longed for, called for, waited for, nor invited or on the guest list, belied in, known for any thing good, reasonable, in the neighborhood, local, maybe in treatment but not assumed to return or - hang on - wanted!

Any questions?

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27. Comment #386211 by jeggers on June 9, 2009 at 1:04 pm

I bloody love sweden, apart from the beer prices. But it is a small price to pay for rational mindedness. Decent conversation!

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28. Comment #386215 by alabasterocean on June 9, 2009 at 1:18 pm

JamCam87 -my friend

God probably doesn't exist - this one is "probably" the best in general. But we need a linguist, it is not the same statement in my language if you ask for my opinion. I quite like it because it is interpreted, by every one i asked, in a more lame fashion - less enthusiastic. I use "nog" when I oppose the obvious. I use word in the "probability" genre when I have doubts, or try to give it a chance, or some degree of odds. This is not the case here - And i don't think it was intended to.

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29. Comment #386227 by Lindenfors on June 9, 2009 at 1:46 pm

I guess the question is if they can't change the title here at Dawkins.net. Now the Swedish campaign is trolling around the internet with the wrong, and a rather corny, title.

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30. Comment #386255 by Duff on June 9, 2009 at 2:43 pm

Gott! Steig ma ruckl runter!

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31. Comment #386294 by Dr. Hameer on June 9, 2009 at 3:55 pm

Hang on! Not so fast atheists.

Get a hold of the following book if you are truly intellectually honest and open to possibilities:

* Anatomy of the Soul: Mind, God, and the Afterlife

by Stephen Goldberg, M.D.

Sorry atheists but the case is far from closed. I am glad to know that Michael Shermer is open to investigating the truth rather than being a dogmatic materialist!

Enjoy!


From amazon.com:

Review

If the mind is a product of the brain, and if the brain is conscious and consciousness is information, and if information can be stored somewhere other than the brain, does that mean a conscious mind can survive the death of the brain? For a unique answer to this question, and a remarkably succinct summary of the vast research in neuroscience on consciousness, read Stephen Goldberg's Anatomy of the Soul, a book that both informs and provokes. Dazzling with facts, deep with implications.

Michael Shermer
Publisher of Skeptic magazine
Monthly columnist for Scientific American
Author of Why People Believe Weird Things --(Anatomy of the Soul blurb)

Product Description

Is there a Soul that persists after death? Anatomy of the Soul: Mind, God, and the Afterlife presents a new approach to the subject, based on an in-depth analysis of how the mind arises from the brain. While the mind is integrally associated with the brain, Dr. Goldberg, a neuroscientist who has taught the subject of neuroanatomy for 25 years explains that there is an aspect of Mind that may continue despite the loss of the brain. The theory clarifies numerous issues within the field of consciousness study and provides insights into the nature of quantum physics, free will, God, and the question of immortality of the mind.

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32. Comment #386295 by mig... on June 9, 2009 at 4:00 pm

I wonder.
The God issue simply doesn't matter in my place. So, WTF are this bus campaigns. I watch with wonder. Is it a publicity war against religious organizations. I understand the original bus campaign was a response to a religious campaign. My opinion is... it's becoming lame.

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33. Comment #386298 by mig... on June 9, 2009 at 4:11 pm

31. Comment #386294 by Dr. Hameer
"Sorry atheists but the case is far from closed"
"...provides insights into the nature of quantum phys"



I won't hold my breath. it's a 2000 year old debate.
And whenever i see mind and quantum physics in the same phrase... hummm



Other Comments by mig...

34. Comment #386300 by Spinoza on June 9, 2009 at 4:36 pm

"The Mind" is not a product of "The Brain".

Case closed.

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35. Comment #386303 by mig... on June 9, 2009 at 4:58 pm

34. Comment #386300 by Spinoza
"The Mind" is not a product of "The Brain".

Case closed.




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36. Comment #386304 by Quine on June 9, 2009 at 5:12 pm

Comment #386294 by Dr. Hameer:

Sorry atheists but the case is far from closed.

If you have examples that are open, I would like to hear about them.

In the case of a profound amnesiac (such as HM) what is the nature of whatever is supposed to go on after death? Also, how does this fit into the evolutionary spectrum? If we have something that "hangs on" at what point did our ancestors not have this? Or, does it go all the way back to pre-cell replicating molecules?

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37. Comment #386305 by mjwemdee on June 9, 2009 at 5:15 pm

traduire, c'est trahir.

May I have a lightly-boiled waitress, please.

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38. Comment #386308 by Alternative Carpark on June 9, 2009 at 5:27 pm

How about this:

"god: not a tac."

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39. Comment #386309 by chewedbarber on June 9, 2009 at 5:30 pm

the question of immortality of the mind

That's a question, fuck you! Had I known that, I never would have grown up, I could still be slaying the neighbors dragon, building time machines with wrist watches, and becoming invisible to avoid the monster under my bed.

Yes, yes, my immortality is something we must all consider earnestly. "Sure, but can we finish our popsicles first?"

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40. Comment #386366 by EvidenceOnly on June 9, 2009 at 10:04 pm

"god is not Great! Religion Poisons Everything", the title of Christopher Hitchens' book, "The God Delusion" from Richard Dawkins' book would make for great bus slogans.

"There's no shred of evidence for any god" would also be a great one.

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41. Comment #386367 by EvidenceOnly on June 9, 2009 at 10:11 pm

#31, Dr. Hammer.

Not so fast materialists!

I wrote a book:

Anatomy of the king without clothes: imagining fabrics, sewing, styling and staying warm in cold weather.

My holy book (a book full of holes) proves that not everything can be observed and measured scientifically :)

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42. Comment #386379 by Goldy on June 10, 2009 at 12:12 am

David

And 2 million Swedes claim to be religious - and many Swedes still support the State church - and evangelical churches are growing - I guess things are not what they seem in paradise after all.

Hence the need for the campaign. Paradise is so close but tainted, as you yourself implied. Hopefully the scourge of religion will soon be erased.

Anyway thanks to the Swedish humanist association for providing the free publicity and for demonstrating that Christianity is still alive and well in Sweden.

Exactly. We atheists have to be constantly aware that we can never rest on our laurels. The forces of endarkenment never sleep.

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43. Comment #386382 by Swede Tooth on June 10, 2009 at 12:26 am

Heja de svenska humanisterna!!

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44. Comment #386394 by nalfeshnee on June 10, 2009 at 1:03 am

David quoth:

It is after all a nation founded on Christian principles.

Founded it might be (I assume you mean the Uppsala Synod), but unlike the Constitutions of Norway and Denmark, it no longer refers to Christianity in its constitution.

As I already pointed out in a previous post: http://richarddawkins.net/articleComments,3260,Recommended-Reading-Society-without-God-What-the-Least-Religious-Nations-Can-Tell-Us-About-Contentment,Phil-Zuckerman,page1#268894.

Interestingly the Constitution was aparently changed in 1999 to separate Church and State:

In 1999 the Church was separated from the state and became an independent organization, but the ruling body of the church is still decided by public voting (among members of the church), and mostly consists of the political parties. As a result of this separation, people born in Sweden where the parents are members of the Church of Sweden since 1999 no longer become members of the church automatically at birth.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Sweden#Lutheran_State_Church

Oh, and regular attendance at the Church currently runs at 2%, according to the Church's official statistics (here).

I predict that now Swedes aren't automatically members of the Church by birth (see above), membership numbers will drop (like a stone), but attendance rates within the remaining membership will go up. After all, if you actually choose to become a member of a church, you are far more likely to want to actually attend its services.

Indeed, since now membership is voluntary, a bit of humanist advertising would not go amiss at all.

David might also like to reflect on the fact that, had the influential John III of Sweden succeeded in forcing through his own personal preferences, Sweden may well have become Catholic.

Or, indeed, one of the "other Christianities": there are, apparently, at least 9,000 different sects and sub-sects within Christianity today. Source: http://www.worldchristiandatabase.org/wcd/home.asp.

Christianity: a Jewish sect that spawned a thousand others!

(Edited, repeatedly, in the last 10 minutes.)

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45. Comment #386399 by andersemil on June 10, 2009 at 1:19 am

Founded it might be, but unlike the Constitutions of Norway and Denmark, it does not refer to Christianity in its constitution.

Exactly the reason why I'd want to move to Sweden if Ateistisk Selskab fail to convince the Danish government how crazy it is to refer to superstition in a constitution. Yes, we are better football players than Sweden, but they are officially more secular than us!

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46. Comment #386403 by alabasterocean on June 10, 2009 at 1:29 am

David A Robertson

"have preached in Sweden and I would suggest that there is as much interest in Christianity there as in the UK"

-Well, I don't know if you ever left the podium and entered the streets of any city in Sweden but it is quite hard to find a confessing Christian. And if you do, they often claim something like: Well, it might be fairy tails, who knows, I just think there is "something", and my wife/husband likes it. And in the 2million quota you have to include the Christian friend like the ones who believe in the God - or Gods- of energy and crystals. And all the rest of them.

And Christianity is not growing in this happy place- not according to the high priest of Stockholm - some woman actually - who doesn't think the church will gain more cheep in the foreseeable future. They are now closing and merging congregations - fall of an age? I hope so.

But you are right, there are still 2milion people who adhere to fiction and myth. But, on the sunnier side I do live in the most non religious time and in the most non religious area in the history of the human race. This cheers me up Big Time!

Welcome to the future, welcome to Stockholm!

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47. Comment #386450 by Ichy on June 10, 2009 at 4:01 am

It's flattering that so many of you believe that we Swedes are a wonder of rationality just because so many does not identify themselves as religious. I wish it were true, but I suspect that "we" are (almost) as superstitious as anybody else. Tv-shows about ghost and spirits and whatever seem to be popular. And above all, to criticise religion is a big no-no. I predict that we will soon see an editorial in one of the major newspapers coming down hard on this campaign. The Swedish Humanist Association have for instance been described as "god-haters" (what a joke!) by the influential journalist Lars Adaktusson.

Moreover, to describe Sweden as an "atheist country" is plain wrong. Being non-religious and being an atheist are two different things, and I would think that very few would describe themselves as atheists.

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48. Comment #386464 by TCM on June 10, 2009 at 4:24 am

NOT SO FAST, ATHEISTS!

If the mind is a product of the brain, and if the brain is conscious and consciousness is information, and if information can be stored somewhere other than the brain

That's far too many 'ifs' for my liking.

But there's no point me saying this, because he's post-and-ran.


Edit: posted-and-run? Post-and-runned?

Other Comments by TCM

49. Comment #386472 by mixmastergaz on June 10, 2009 at 4:39 am

I'd say the best way to phrase it is, 'shit and run'.

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50. Comment #386487 by J.C. Samuelson on June 10, 2009 at 5:21 am

It might be interesting to learn whether the prevalence of non-belief in Sweden has any correlation to the higher levels of scientific literacy there. Some have said - including RD, I believe - that knowledge of science can lead to non-belief.

@ 31. Comment #386294 by Dr. Hameer

Might be worth a read, based on Dr. Shermer's snippet of a review. That said, I seriously doubt it holds any metaphysical surprises that will cause atheists to sit up and reconsider the existence of god(s) or soul(s).

Based on the review only (not the best way to assess content, to be sure, but what else do we have?), it looks like Golberg might merely be speculating about the possibility of information storage for the brain, supposing an external storage facility of a suitable nature exists or could exist. Need it be said that this needn't imply god(s) or heaven as the designated storage facility?

If Goldberg's hypothesis ends by concluding that there is such a storage facility, that this storage facility is called "heaven," and that the information we have in our brains is, in fact, stored there (or suggests that this might actually be the case), he has left the realm of science and entered the fuzzy world of theology.

But anyway...

Consciousness must be more than the aggregate of information. It's also the relationships (which might also be described as "information"; meta-information, perhaps?). But more than that, it's the propensity to change those relationships; to recast and reinterpret them as well as any connected spheres of information. It's far more complex than that even (perhaps obviously so), but I think the first sentence of this paragraph is apt, if uninformative.

I'd be curious to learn how Goldberg deals with the extreme deep complexity of issues involving consciousness. Many have tried, and have posed interesting questions, but none have (in my opinion) succeeded in finding satisfactory answers.

EDIT: Edited for clarity

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