Tuesday, August 19, 2009 | Reason : In the News | print version

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[UPDATE] Campaign to win official apology for Alan Turing

by Yakub Qureshi - Manchester Evening News

UPDATE 19-Aug

Dawkins calls for official apology for Turing

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/dawkins-calls-for-official-apology-for-turing-1774033.html

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Richard Dawkins last night joined the campaign to win an official apology for Alan Turing, the code-breaking genius and father of the modern computer who committed suicide in 1954 after being prosecuted for being homosexual.

More than 2,500 people have now added their name to the on-line petition calling for the Government to recognise the "consequences of prejudice" that ended the life of the scientist aged just 41.

Professor Dawkins said that an apology would "send a signal to the world which needs to be sent", and that Turing would still be alive today if it were not for the repressive, religion-influenced laws which drove him to despair.
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Continue reading
http://www.independent.co.uk/news/people/news/dawkins-calls-for-official-apology-for-turing-1774033.html

_____________________________________________________________________
There is a link in the news article to sign the petition; you need to be a British citizen.
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1132035_campaign_to_win_official_apology_for_alan_turing

A link to discussion in the Forum
http://www.richarddawkins.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=17&t=90140

Also a link to discussion at Pharyngula
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/08/its_a_little_late_for_an_apolo.php

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A CAMPAIGN has been launched to win a posthumous apology for computer pioneer Alan Turing over his conviction for homosexuality.

The brilliant mathematician, who spent his key years at Manchester University, is hailed as one of the founders of modern computing.

But a conviction for homosexuality effectively ended his career. Troubled Turing went on to commit suicide in 1954, aged just 41.

Now a group of admirers of the scientist - named as one of the 100 most important people of the 20th century by Time Magazine - are lobbying the government to make a posthumous apology.

Codebreaker

The Cambridge graduate was one of Britain's best wartime codebreakers - part of the team at Bletchley Park which unravelled the secret of the Enigma code machines used by German U-boats. Turing was awarded an OBE in 1945 for his wartime services to the Foreign Office and moved to Manchester to help work on the pioneering Mark 1 computer.

He was prosecuted for gross indecency for having sex with a man in 1952, but escaped jail after being offered an alternative of taking an experimental hormone treatment to reduce sex drive.
...
Continue reading
http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/s/1132035_campaign_to_win_official_apology_for_alan_turing

Posted: Tuesday, August 19, 2009 | Permalink

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1. Comment #406882 by shemp333 on August 18, 2009 at 12:41 pm

A very sad story of bigotry. Apologizing now won't really change very much though will it? Well at least it will point a moral compass in the right direction for the future, and that's a good enough reason to want an apology issued. I hope they give one.

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2. Comment #406883 by Tintern on August 18, 2009 at 12:42 pm

What a wonderful thanks from your country for wartime services. Break Hitler's codes, then be forced to try an experimental drug to alter what's nobody else's concern. Although the biggest demonstration of stupidity is arguably to end the career of such a valuable contributor. There were plenty of cover-ups then and since but somehow, not being a politician or church official or journalist (just a brilliant scientist), they weren't able to see their way even to expediency for this guy£

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3. Comment #406884 by Ygern on August 18, 2009 at 12:43 pm

It's too late for Alan Turing, but perhaps as a consciousness-raising campaign this is worth supporting.

He was a genius and a pioneer, and the persecution and vilification of this hero was nothing other than a tragic mockery of justice.

Other Comments by Ygern

4. Comment #406885 by God fearing Atheist on August 18, 2009 at 12:45 pm

WTF!

Doesn't it rely on theist belief in an after-life to apologise to someone who is dead?

Anyone involved in these prosecutions might want to say they were wrong. But again - 1952 - how many are still alive?

Other Comments by God fearing Atheist

5. Comment #406888 by bendigeidfran on August 18, 2009 at 12:52 pm

'A conviction for homosexuality' - how silly does that sound today? Two counts of 'possessing a leg' were also taken into consideration.

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6. Comment #406896 by javb222 on August 18, 2009 at 1:06 pm

The government today wasn't responsible for Turing's death and you can't apologise for something which you weren't responsible for. (A bit like original sin.)

Instead of apologising, how about just condemning.

Other Comments by javb222

7. Comment #406900 by Richard Dawkins on August 18, 2009 at 1:16 pm

I am one of the presenters (along with Stephen Hawking, James Dyson, David Attenborough and others) of the forthcoming Channel Four documentary, provisionally called 'Genius of British Science'. It fell to me to present the section on Alan Turing, so I learned quite a lot about him. I had previously read the biography by Andrew Hodges, and seen the play, with Derek Jacobi playing Turing, and had been scandalised enough by the way his country treated him to write the following, in The God Delusion, the section on religious bigotry towards homosexuality:

My own country has no right to be smug. Private homosexuality was a criminal offence in Britain up until – astonishingly – 1967. In 1954 the British mathematician Alan Turing, a candidate along with John von Neumann for the title of father of the computer, committed suicide after being convicted of the criminal offence of homosexual behaviour in private. Admittedly Turing was not buried alive under a wall pushed over by a tank [the Taliban punishment for homosexuality]. He was offered a choice between two years in prison (you can imagine how the other prisoners would have treated him) and a course of hormone injections which could be said to amount to chemical castration, and which would cause him to grow breasts. His final, private choice was an apple which he had injected with cyanide.

As the pivotal intellect in the breaking of the German Enigma codes, Turing arguably made a greater contribution to defeating the Nazis than Eisenhower or Churchill. Thanks to Turing and his ‘Ultra’ colleagues at Bletchley Park, allied generals in the field were consistently, over long periods of the war, privy to detailed German plans before the German generals had time to implement them. After the war, when Turing’s role was no longer top secret, he should have been knighted and feted as a saviour of his nation. Instead, this gentle, stammering, eccentric genius was destroyed, for a ‘crime’, committed in private, which harmed nobody. Once again, the unmistakeable trademark of the faith-based absolutist is to care passionately about what other people do (or even think) in private.

Richard

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8. Comment #406904 by bendigeidfran on August 18, 2009 at 1:26 pm

1967 - how embarrassing.

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9. Comment #406910 by SaintStephen on August 18, 2009 at 1:39 pm

I wish I had a brain like Alan Turing's. This man was freaky smart. Breaking the Enigma code was a monumental achievement. He is a total hero, way beyond Churchill or any mere politician, IMHO.

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10. Comment #406912 by lordpasternack on August 18, 2009 at 1:39 pm

I'm afraid that I am not familiar with Turing's plight. I knew the name, but not his achievements or how he died. I now know at least enough to see this as a horribly tragic, pointless death of an incredibly talented individual.

Although, with a glance over the details of his predicament, I can't help feel the slight twinge of irony in thinking that all of 55 years later, in this 'clear-thinking oasis', where we sit waxing quixotic about how rotten it is that the religious mindset so permeates societal mores - it would have been technically against our rules for Turing to have raised his predicament on our forum.

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11. Comment #406916 by Richard Dawkins on August 18, 2009 at 1:45 pm

I might add that cracking the German Enigma codes demanded not just formidable cleverness but equally formidable courage just to believe it was possible. The Germans early decided that to crack the British equivalent coding system was so difficult that they would not even try. In the enigma coding of a German message, the code itself (i.e. the mapping from input letter to output letter) changed, seemingly at random, after literally every single key-press. It was equivalent to a combination lock in which the number of possible combinations was 150 million million million. Like the Germans faced with the reciprocal problem with the British coding system, if I had been Turing I would simply have given up before even starting. Turing was clever enough to succeed, but he was also brave enough to try.

I have signed the petition at http://petitions.number10.gov.uk/turing/

Richard

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12. Comment #406919 by SaintStephen on August 18, 2009 at 1:49 pm

Although, with a glance over the details of his predicament, I can't help feel the slight twinge of irony in thinking that all of 55 years later, in this 'clear-thinking oasis', where we sit waxing quixotic about how rotten it is that the religious mindset so permeates societal mores - it would have been technically against our rules for Turing to have raised his predicament on our forum.

Very interesting comment. Are you saying that if someone on this site began posting a personal story of persecution due to his sexual preference, others would discourage him?

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13. Comment #406922 by lordpasternack on August 18, 2009 at 1:51 pm

Signed.

Very interesting comment. Are you saying that if someone on this site began posting a personal story of persecution due to his sexual preference, others would discourage him?

No - I am saying that it is against the official forum rules, which you can peruse HERE.

I refer to the section Sex and Nudity in particular.

Other Comments by lordpasternack

14. Comment #406923 by Adrian Bartholomew on August 18, 2009 at 1:52 pm

I’m not sure bravery is the word. You give a mathematician a problem and tell them it’s really hard and you just get a happy and excited mathematician :-)

EDIT: Signed. Who doesn't love the wonderful Turing!?

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15. Comment #406924 by bendigeidfran on August 18, 2009 at 1:53 pm

Yes What do you mean lordpasternack?

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16. Comment #406927 by mmurray on August 18, 2009 at 1:56 pm

What is the problem? The present government can apologize for mistakes made by previous governments. We did it in Australia to the indigenous Australians. I recommend reading Andrew Hodges biography and Simon Singh's code book. The code breakers are the great unrecognized heroes of WWII.

Michael

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17. Comment #406928 by lordpasternack on August 18, 2009 at 1:56 pm

I edited my point into my last post for clarity.

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18. Comment #406930 by epeeist on August 18, 2009 at 1:57 pm

Signed - I used to live in the same small town as him. Sadly few knew of him or the work that he did.

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19. Comment #406931 by SaintStephen on August 18, 2009 at 2:00 pm

Like the Germans faced with the reciprocal problem with the British coding system, if I had been Turing I would simply have given up before even starting.

Now that's high praise coming from our own resident genius. I'm thinking Richard would be a pretty good horse to run in a codebreaking race, given his demonstrated talents.

Other Comments by SaintStephen

20. Comment #406937 by Anvil on August 18, 2009 at 2:14 pm

Signed.

I often sit next to him whenever I'm in Manchester. It's one memorial that really inspires me. The bronze plaque at his feet reads:

Father of Computer Science
Mathematician, Logician
Wartime Codebreaker
Victim of Prejudice

'IEKYF RQMSI ADXUO KVKZC GUBJ'

Anvil.

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21. Comment #406940 by Richard Dawkins on August 18, 2009 at 2:17 pm

I have signed the petition, although in general I am not impressed with apologies being issued for the sins of past generations. I think that attempts to make all modern white people feel guilty for the slave trade are ridiculous, and apologies to all modern black people are even more ridiculous. But Alan Turing lived pretty recently. Many of his colleagues at Bletchley Park are still alive, and Turing himself might still be alive if he hadn't committed suicide. He was of roughly the same generation as my parents, both of whom are still very much alive. Moreover, although the law on homosexuality in Britain was changed in 1967, the bigotry that gave rise to it is still alive and kicking, and it still has the force of law in much of the Islamic world. An official government apology to Turing would send a signal to the world, which needs to be sent. An official apology for slavery would not send a useful signal, because nobody, not even the most bigoted Christian, is nowadays in favour of slavery. I agree that in, say, another 50 years, an official apology would no longer be appropriate. But it is still appropriate today.

Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

22. Comment #406948 by God fearing Atheist on August 18, 2009 at 2:25 pm

14. Comment #406923 by Adrian Bartholomew

I’m not sure bravery is the word. You give a mathematician a problem and tell them it’s really hard and you just get a happy and excited mathematician :-)

I agree you and not Richard. My mathemetician mate loves "impossible" tasks! The "brave" people are the managers, who in a war, with scarce resources, and the dire consequences of wasting them, thought it a good investment to try to crack the codes. Lucky they had Turing.

I suppose I should sign the petition. Hoewever, it think the very concept of apologising to the dead for something the current government is not responsible for is supporting woo. Can't we just have a petition supporting equality across sexual preference, sex, race etc, citing the terrible "reward" given to Turing for his invaluable contribution to winning the WW II as to why we must stop this kind of injustice NOW?

Other Comments by God fearing Atheist

23. Comment #406954 by Steve Zara on August 18, 2009 at 2:31 pm

I have a problem with the idea of an apology to Alan Turing. It isn't enough, and sends the wrong signal.

It seems to me to say that you get an apology for a conviction for homosexuality if you happen to be a war hero. But what about those who weren't so famous?

If there is any statement, it should be one of regret for the effect of past prejudice on millions.

But what would be better than an apology, or such a statement, would be a change in law. The full recognition of gay marriage, not just as some parallel civil partnerships, in the UK.

Name Alan Turing in the text of the legislation. That would be a worthy and truly positive tribute to a great man. It would send a clear message that we won't tolerate prejudice from those who won't accept same-sex relationships as equal, which includes many in the established and supposedly benign Church of England as well as in the Islamic world and Catholicism.

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24. Comment #406959 by Adrian Bartholomew on August 18, 2009 at 2:41 pm

I want the apology AND what Steve has just said. Normally I hate "me too" posts but the above would be WONDERFUL.

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25. Comment #406961 by Lucas on August 18, 2009 at 2:43 pm

Alan Turing was a great man. Anybody here read Cryptonomicon by Neal Stephenson? Very nice fictional account of Turing's life.

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26. Comment #406967 by Mark Jones on August 18, 2009 at 2:47 pm

Signed; Turing has always been a bit of a hero of mine.

Obviously this does nothing for Turing himself, but I think these retrospective apologies have a symbolic value when they are for *individuals* who have been wronged.

In addition, I agree with Steve's call for full recognition of gay *marriage*. Such a 'Turing Act' would be an excellent monument.

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27. Comment #406969 by hungarianelephant on August 18, 2009 at 2:50 pm

Richard has convinced me, though like Steve I'd like to see an apology to everyone else as well, and completion of the removal of institutionalised prejudice against people because of their sexuality.

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28. Comment #406993 by Steven Mading on August 18, 2009 at 3:27 pm

I think that hanging the name "Alan Turing Act" on a piece of legislation to legalize fully equivalent gay marriage would be a very good PR move.

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29. Comment #407011 by Richard Dawkins on August 18, 2009 at 3:58 pm

I've been invited to talk about this issue on Channel Four news. Not sure when the interview will be broadcast, but the recording is tomorrow morning.

Richard

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30. Comment #407013 by jgrahamc on August 18, 2009 at 4:00 pm

I'm the person who created the petition. Thank you to Richard and all the others from this site who have signed it.

You might be interested in my proposal for how best to honour Alan Turing: http://www.jgc.org/blog/2009/08/alan-m-turing-endowment.html

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31. Comment #407015 by irate_atheist on August 18, 2009 at 4:02 pm

29. Comment #407011 by Richard Dawkins -

Just remember not to be too 'strident', Richard.

;-)

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32. Comment #407022 by Richard Dawkins on August 18, 2009 at 4:14 pm

Just remember not to be too 'strident', Richard.

OK, I'll just be shrill.

You might be interested in my proposal for how best to honour Alan Turing: http://www.jgc.org/blog/2009/08/alan-m-turing-endowment.html

Yes! That is an excellent idea. I was shocked, when I visited the museum at Bletchley, to discover that it receives no government funding. I think that would be a far better way to honour Turing than a public apology. I'll be sure to mention it in my Channel 4 interview.
Richard

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33. Comment #407030 by Cartomancer on August 18, 2009 at 4:23 pm

I was going to say everything that Steve Zara did in his post, but it looks like I'm late to the party again.

Oh well, I'll just console myself that I said pretty much the same thing on PinkNews.co.uk when this story appeared there a few days ago.

If there is to be an apology, do mention Turing, fine. But apologise to all the other gay people who were similarly oppressed as well. And not just those who suffered pre-1969 either - Thatcher and Michael Howard's nasty section 28 was only repealed six years ago, a piece of bigoted legislation that set back the education and social acceptance of many tens of millions of children who would grow up to be gay. I count myself among that number.

I'm still campaigning for a full apology from the French government for that 1066 business though!

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34. Comment #407040 by hungarianelephant on August 18, 2009 at 4:32 pm

I don't think the French government were involved in the 1066 business. Except for their Death Panels, obviously.

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35. Comment #407042 by God fearing Atheist on August 18, 2009 at 4:34 pm

30. Comment #407013 by jgrahamc
http://www.jgc.org/blog/2009/08/alan-m-turing-endowment.html

Excellent idea!

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36. Comment #407050 by bendigeidfran on August 18, 2009 at 4:47 pm

Comment #407013 by jgrahamc

More likely you'd be writing in perfect English.

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37. Comment #407060 by Swordmaiden on August 18, 2009 at 5:07 pm

Oh this is just fantastic!
For years I have been furious that this amazing man has gone almost unrecognised for his contribution to defeat of Nazi Germany.
There should be a statue to him in Whitehall!

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38. Comment #407069 by Follow Peter Egan on August 18, 2009 at 5:51 pm

I want the apology AND what Steve has just said. Normally I hate "me too" posts but the above would be WONDERFUL.

Me too. Very well said Steve.

I've been invited to talk about this issue on Channel Four news. Not sure when the interview will be broadcast, but the recording is tomorrow morning.

Richard

Channel Four news for me for the next few days then. Turing has long fascinated me, though the manner of his death and the reason for it has a lot to do with that. Although there's still ample bigotry against gays, and any bigotry is a bad thing, I'm grateful I don't live in an era where my relationship would be impossible, land me in gaol, or send me to an untimely death. I have signed the petition, because Turing is an excellent example of the horrendous consequences of bigotry.

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39. Comment #407072 by prettygoodformonkeys on August 18, 2009 at 5:59 pm

@23 Steve Zara

I heartily agree. An apology to anyone is a good place to start, though.

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40. Comment #407079 by Quine on August 18, 2009 at 6:12 pm

Being across the pond, I can't do much to support this, but would if I could. The story of Turing's mistreatment by the society around him has disheartened me ever since I became aware of it, long ago.

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41. Comment #407086 by beanson on August 18, 2009 at 6:34 pm

what a pointless waste of time

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42. Comment #407094 by fsm1965 on August 18, 2009 at 6:44 pm

I'm with others who have said there is no point in apologising for something you were not responsible for.

Having said that, as a govt representative, it is fair enough for "the sins of the fathers", but not just to Turing, but Wilde and others affected by these bigoted laws.

Other Comments by fsm1965

43. Comment #407100 by j.mills on August 18, 2009 at 6:57 pm

Couching these things as 'apologies' is perhaps unhelpful. Turing isn't here to receive an apology and the present government weren't responsible. But it is worthwhile acknowledging that a wrong was done, putting that down as the official position: that is one of the jobs a government can do. It draws a line in the sand for the future.

The latest issue of Viz commemorates Alan Turing with a highly amusing strip about him code-breaking and fire-walking at the same time. I don't think they worked in his sexual orientation though, which is rather a missed trick for that august journal!

Richard said:

His final, private choice was an apple which he had injected with cyanide.

Fruit of the tree of knowledge...

(When I said 'fruit', I didn't mean - oh forget it.)

Hey, Anvil (#20), where's the statue in Manchester? I thought there wasn't a statue to him anywhere!

(EDIT: Found it! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alan_Turing_Memorial Shall definitely visit!)

Other Comments by j.mills

44. Comment #407106 by phil rimmer on August 18, 2009 at 7:24 pm

Comment #407094 by fsm1965

I'm with others who have said there is no point in apologising for something you were not responsible for.

I used to think this. But I have come to change my mind. It would be so simple for individuals in government to glide through their careers untroubled by the long-term consequences of their actions. "Going with the flow" is always uncontroversial in the short term.

Being bollocked for the actions of your predecessors, whilst ostensibly unfair is a great symbolic act to remind you of the ignominy in which you may be held by future generations for not being properly attentive to current moral injustice (for example). Accepting another's punishment, if you will, when occupying the same public role, is an acceptance that you and your colleagues need to be ever and actively vigilant.

Great post Steve.

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45. Comment #407116 by flibble on August 18, 2009 at 7:51 pm

Whilst I am in awe of Alan Turing's achievements (my field being computer science), and feel desperately for his persecution (my great uncle was imprisoned for a similar offence in the late 30s), I have to say that I really don't see the point in this campaign.

Apologies should only come from the guilty party, and be made to the wronged person/people.

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46. Comment #407119 by DamnDirtyApe on August 18, 2009 at 8:00 pm

We need words AND action. Doing anything's a step in the right direction here.

I'm sick of seeing horrific articles about homosexuals being basically hunted down in places like Iraq. We need to send a message.

I occasionally follow the cases of gay asylum seekers in the uk. The things they go through are terrible:

http://www.lgf.org.uk/news/730/495/Ugandan-lesbian-awaits-asylum-outcome/

She won the right to stay fortunately, although others did not. I did find an article a while back that contain a clipping from a Ugandan newspaper - with a section 'naming and shaming' homosexuals. I'm quite certain this is still the norm.

Examples must be set - examples of the wrongness of this persecution.

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47. Comment #407121 by sillygirl on August 18, 2009 at 8:16 pm

This kind of "apology" is not the same as a person to person apology. This is the entity of government acknowledging its wrongness in an injustice. It isn't about how Turing might feel about being apologized to, but how people who care about the issue feel about their government. The issue, of course, was bigger than him, but he is a symbol for everyone who suffered similar persecution.

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48. Comment #407122 by Steve Zara on August 18, 2009 at 8:25 pm

Comment #407119 by DamnDirtyApe

I understand what you are saying, but I just don't feel I can support the petition. I understand the good motives of those who do, but it makes me uneasy.

I don't think this was the intention of the framers of the petition, but the idea sounds to me like the government should apologise because it went too far in the prosecution of Turing. They should have held back, not because he was gay, but because he was a war hero, and prosecution led to his untimely death.

It leaves me with a feeling that the apology is for the consequences of the prosecution of a war hero, not for the prejudice that led to the prosecution.

I am sure this is not the intention, but it is how it makes me feel.

But even so, how can such an apology have meaning? Such prejudices were thought reasonable at the time. The zeitgeist changes. That should be enough. The change itself is a recognition of previous wrongs.

I would rather that Turing's life was celebrated, not apologised for. He doesn't need to be thought of as a gay martyr, but an amazing thinker, scientist and war hero who, incidentally, happened to be gay. I love the idea of the Turing Endowment. That is a fine way to honour the man.

Other Comments by Steve Zara

49. Comment #407124 by DamnDirtyApe on August 18, 2009 at 8:28 pm

You are right Steve. This is bigger than one man. Bigger by half.

Richard... please be sure to emphasize that. This is much, much bigger even than Turing.

side note - I just remembered Ted Haggard. Didn't his old church abandon him after his revelations? I know he wasn't a particularly nice man but to completely disown him in such a way was disgusting.

Other Comments by DamnDirtyApe

50. Comment #407125 by theolgit on August 18, 2009 at 8:31 pm

I have long thought that Alan Turing was treated abominably. The man probably did more than any other single person to defeat Nazi Germany. He should have been treated as a hero. I am now going to sign the petition.

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