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Friday, December 22, 2006 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document The Only One in Step

by Richard Dawkins

I can't find the original volume so I may have got the exact words wrong, but I recall one of those marvellous old Punch cartoons in which every last detail is painstakingly explained. A devoted mother is looking proudly on at a military parade as her son's platoon marches past: "There's my boy, he's the only one in step!" On The Guardian letters page of December 19th 2006, I initiated an exchange about Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university, who has publicly stated that he believes the world is only 6,000 years old, and publicly stated that the theory of evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Both these beliefs place McIntosh out of step with his scientific colleagues, not just his platoon but the entire regiment — to paraphrase Evelyn Waugh, the whole ruddy division. Amazingly, McIntosh is Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, and, equally amazingly, a letter supporting him has now appeared from Professor Stuart Burgess, Head of the Department of Mechanical Engineering at Bristol University . Other letters to the Editor indicate that a distressing number of otherwise knowledgeable and intelligent people have little conception of the enormity of what is being said.

Science doesn't work by vote and it doesn't work by authority. It is possible that Burgess and McIntosh really are the only ones in step, and the whole scientific establishment is flat wrong. Indeed, I shall bias my discussion in their favour by continuing to use that word 'establishment' with all its pejorative overtones of fuddyduddy, stick-in-the-muddy authoritarianism. I like mavericks. I like free spirits who buck the trend and strike out on their own. They are not usually right, but on the rare occasions when they are, they are very right indeed: importantly so, and all power to them. Maybe Burgess and McIntosh are right and all the rest of us — biologists, geologists, archeologists, historians, chemists, physicists, cosmologists and, yes, thermodynamicists and respectable theologians, the vast majority of Nobel Prizewinners, Fellows of the Royal Society and of the National Academies of the world — are wrong. Not just slightly wrong but catastrophically, appallingly, devastatingly wrong. It is possible, and I am going to follow that possibility through to its logical conclusion. I shall not here defend the views held by the scientific establishment. I am among those who have done that elsewhere, in many books. My purpose in this article is only to convey the full magnitude of the error into which, if Burgess and McIntosh are right, the scientific establishment has fallen.

First, the age of the Earth. McIntosh thinks, on bliblical authority alone, that it is less than 10,000 years. We establishment fuddyduddies think, using mutually corroborating evidence from many sources including several different radioactive isotopes in the rocks, that it is about 4.6 billion years. I shall not say here why I think we are right and McIntosh wrong. Instead, I shall simply calculate the magnitude of the difference between the two estimates. We of the 'establishment' think the Earth is 460,000 times older than McIntosh's estimate. It is as though McIntosh estimated the height of a man as 6 feet and then accused the rest of us of believing that the same man was 460,000 times as tall, or 521 miles. Or, looking the other way, it is as though McIntosh looked at the establishment geographers' measurement of the distance from New York to San Francisco and claimed that the true distance from sea to shining sea was 460,000 times smaller, namely about ten yards. Maybe McIntosh is right and all the rest of us wrong. All I have done here is calculate how spectacularly wrong we would be, if McIntosh is right.

Turning now to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, this is a topic on which Andrew McIntosh, as Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, might be thought to speak with special authority. He is backed up by Stuart Burgess, Head of Bristol's Department of Mechanical Engineering, which is another subject in which thermodynamics is paramount and central. Both these men have stated their authoritative opinion that the theory of evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Nothing violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The great astrophyisicist Sir Arthur Eddington put it with memorable irony. "If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." It is not for nothing that C P Snow used familiarity with the Second Law as his litmus test of scientific literacy.

The Second Law states that, in a closed system without external energy fed in from outside, entropy always increases. Entropy is often said to mean disorder, but in some ways the word 'mixed-upness' (Willard Gibbs's coining) fits better. A familiar metaphor is that of a library. If the readers in a library always leave books lying around on the tables, or shove them back on the shelves at random, the library will become increasingly disordered. To remain in a state of order, it needs an energetic librarian, constantly working to put books back on their proper shelves, and constantly checking the shelves for misplaced volumes. It is not that libraries have a magnetic attraction or an urgent drive towards a particular goal state called disorder. It is simply that the number of states of a library that we would call disordered is much greater than the tiny minority of states that we would recognize as ordered. There are many more ways of being disordered than of being ordered. No work needs to be done to drive a library toward one of the many states that we call disordered. It will just happen, willy nilly, unless energetic work is done to prevent the otherwise inevitable slide downhill into disorder.

The Second Law recognizes a similar downhill slide towards disorder in any closed system such as the universe, which lacks a source of externally supplied energy. In a local region with externally supplied energy, on the other hand, we may see what look like reversals, but the stress must be on 'local' and 'externally supplied'. Life on Earth may evolve towards greater complexity and increased order, but this is only possible because of a massive transfusion of energy from the sun. To return to the library analogy, natural selection, the nonrandom survival of successful genes in gene pools, could be called the librarian of life. And the energy to power it comes ultimately from the sun. The overall trend of the thermodynamic river is still downhill. But a small tithe of the sun's energy is trapped by plants and used to power a trickle in the reverse direction. This reverse trickle is to be found not only in evolution but in the physiology of every individual organism, and in many chemical reactions. It is like a ram pump, which uses the energy of a flowing river to pump a small quantity of the water uphill.

Once again, it is not my purpose here to argue for the validity of the Second Law. It is undisputed. Nor is it my purpose to defend evolution against the charge of violating it. My purpose is again to convey the sheer magnitude of the error that Burgess and McIntosh are attributing to their hugely more numerous 'establishment' colleagues, who accept evolution and supply cogent arguments against the suggestion that it violates the Second Law. As with the age of the Earth, this is not some minor, recondite dispute among scientists. It is a monumental disagreement. One side or the other has got to be wrong, and not just slightly wrong but catastrophically, ignominiously, disastrously wrong. Evolutionists are accused of believing in a theory that violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If Burgess and McIntosh are right, almost all the scientists in the world should, in Eddington's words, 'collapse in deepest humiliation.' If they are right, evolution has to be ruled out, not because of some evidential problems or deficiencies as is common in science, but for a much more radical reason. Evolution, on their view, is completely and utterly ruled out for the same kind of reason as a patent inspector will reject a design for a perpetual motion machine without even looking at it. We earlier saw that McIntosh is, in effect, accusing the scientific establishment of believing that a man is 521 miles tall. Now we see that he also accuses us of believing something as absurd as that a river will run uphill. Maybe he is right on both counts, but the sheer magnitude of the error attributed to the rest of us should at least give him pause. When I say it is not a minor mistake we scientists are accused of, I am giving a whole new depth of meaning to the word understatement.


Richard Dawkins FRS is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. His books include The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable, The Ancestor's Tale and, most recently, The God Delusion.

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1. Comment #14415 by plastictowel on December 22, 2006 at 10:56 am

 avatarI...i....think...i love you....wild thing.

Other Comments by plastictowel

2. Comment #14419 by jburdoo on December 22, 2006 at 11:28 am

A lot of people seem to think Dr. Dawkins is too stern and curmudgeonly; in some cases, I think, he doesn't go far enough. Now, I grant that explaining the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics was not the entire point of this essay, but that explanation, while good (as a professional librarian, I love the analogy), could be made clearer, perhaps, in a dedicated letter rather than a single paragraph. Most importantly, the point might have been made that ultimately, the entire library has lost more resources than it retained by improving the place -- so, say, to put ten books in order, the librarian had to move a hundred. Or the sun has lost vastly more energy than we received on Earth, and continues to run down.

Other Comments by jburdoo

3. Comment #14427 by seals on December 22, 2006 at 11:50 am

 avatarIt's a funny old world isnt it! Puzzling. It's not april 1st, so have the 2 guys been somehow "swayed" to support ID, and if that's their motive, why don't they just say so? I assume they haven't made the link, as it's not mentioned here. Or... maybe they've been visited by space aliens. All sorts of weird things can happen after that, I've heard. Surely they can't be, er, that thick...

I know - it's a test to find the most gullible person on this website, and I've won! I claim my £10.

Other Comments by seals

4. Comment #14428 by OUMedStudent on December 22, 2006 at 11:58 am

Here is an excerpt from an email Andy wrote to a member of the forum:

"Molecules have no information system in them in themselves to form the structure necessary for the DNA which carries coded information. This information is neither matter nor energy. It is rather like software which is not defined by the
material itself. That information which sits on the structure of DNA is itself ensuring that the free energy of each chemical bond is maintained.
Left to themselves the nucleotide bonds would decay, as well as the polypeptide bonds of amino acids made by the RNA to form proteins. The molecules themselves cannot raise the ordered free
energy state."

It seems that Andy believes that there is some intrinsic property or information required simply to hold chemical bonds together. So his assessment is even worse than previously believed. Not only does he think Evolution by Natural Selection violates the Second Law, but he believes that without invoking divine machinery, the simple concept of a chemical bond would violate it as well.

Other Comments by OUMedStudent

5. Comment #14429 by Joadist on December 22, 2006 at 11:58 am

The ideas of Burgess and McIntosh are not radically new. They have been accepted scientific views for quite some time.

Wm Jennings Bryan explained them quite eloquently nearly a century ago.

When asked how God could have created the Universe in a period of Seven 24-Hour days, he explained:

God's Days are not the same length as Earthly days.

When man tries to apply his science to the works of God, he creates errors of magnitude.

Other Comments by Joadist

6. Comment #14431 by Jonathan Dore on December 22, 2006 at 12:03 pm

As a graduate of Bristol University, I "collapse in deepest humiliation" at the thought of my alma mater's association with Professor Stuart Burgess. I'm only a music graduate, and I can understand why the 2nd Law is not a barrier to evolution. You would have thought a professor of mechanical engineering could do a teensy bit better -- or indeed, 460,000 times better.

Other Comments by Jonathan Dore

7. Comment #14437 by Steve Harris on December 22, 2006 at 12:44 pm

I'm also a recent graduate from Bristol, but I'm happy to say the ideas of Professor Burgess don't seem to hold much sway with the student population. He gave a lecture in the chemistry department late last year about his views. There wasn't really anything new in them, as other commenters note, apart from a few loopy ideas about beauty proving God's existence (cue slide of his daughter's smiling face); mostly they were just standard creationist arguments, delivered in the standard creationist manner (rapid fire, without explaining technical terms or giving any references), and they did not go down well with the apparently intelligent, science literate audience.

The lecture ended with an unplanned Q&A session, demanded by the (by now hostile) audience, in which Professor Burgess couldn't really hold up against the questioners' rebuttals of his arguments. While for the most part we remained polite, the room descended into chaos when he made the claim about the second law of thermodynamics. I guiltily admit I heckled a bit at that point. I don't know why he thought he'd get away with that so close to the University's science departments, where flyers for the talk had been handed out all day!

Unfortunately I couldn't make the planned Q&A which happened the next day. I'd love to hear about it, from anyone who attended.

Other Comments by Steve Harris

8. Comment #14438 by Seti on December 22, 2006 at 12:45 pm

 avatarComment # 14429 Posted by Joadist: "When man tires to apply his science to the works of God, he creates errors of magnitude."

Or vice-versa. Why is scientific evidence good enough for brain surgery, building aeroplanes or... um... discovering the second law of thermodynamics, but when it comes to the "works of God" it all falls down? As Galileo said, "I do not feel obliged to believe that the same God who has endowed us with sense, reason, and intellect has intended us to forgo their use." If Galileo had lived in our post-Darwin world, he would not have been quite so compromising.

Other Comments by Seti

9. Comment #14441 by Jack Rawlinson on December 22, 2006 at 1:03 pm

 avatarYes, I was appalled by some of those letters today. There was also one from a certain Professor Steve Fuller of Warwick University which displayed a quite jaw-dropping ignorance of elementary fallacies. I noted that he's a professor of sociology. I fondly recalled a graffito in one of Leeds University Physics Department's toilets. Right next to the toilet roll dispenser some wag had written, "Sociology degrees. Please take one."

One begins to see why, perhaps... :-)

Other Comments by Jack Rawlinson

10. Comment #14446 by quork on December 22, 2006 at 1:28 pm

There was also one from a certain Professor Steve Fuller of Warwick University which displayed a quite jaw-dropping ignorance of elementary fallacies.

Could that be the same Steve Fuller who testified, ostensibly for the defence, at the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial in the USA?

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dover/day15am.html#day15am16

He claimed that Intelligent Design was doing so poorly in the science labs that it should be taught in the schools as a form of 'affirmative action'.

Other Comments by quork

11. Comment #14448 by Riley on December 22, 2006 at 1:32 pm

 avatar--------------------------------------------------------
Joadist wrote: When man tries to apply his science to the works of God, he creates errors of magnitude.
--------------------------------------------------------



On one side of the argument we have men who claim knowlege by appealing to a book created by men in the language of men: fickle and context dependent.

On the other side of the argument we have men who claim knowlege by appealing to the the universe, created and in a language that could only be of God: consistant and universal.

I'll side on the truth revealed by God's creation over the sacriligeous worship of a book every time.

--

Other Comments by Riley

12. Comment #14450 by Mel Z on December 22, 2006 at 1:37 pm

 avatarI wonder how much longer until ID supporters start deliberately misquoting richard saying "see, even he realizes the huge magnitude of his mistake"

Other Comments by Mel Z

13. Comment #14451 by Vadjong on December 22, 2006 at 1:42 pm

 avatar2nd law fundamentalists don't realize they refute their own argument everytime they take a breath to utter it.

Other Comments by Vadjong

14. Comment #14455 by quork on December 22, 2006 at 2:02 pm

You can find some of McIntosh's thoughts on thermodynamics and evolution expressed at the web site Answers in Genesis:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/Area/isd/mcintosh.asp

Merry Cephalopodmas, and have a good laugh.

Other Comments by quork

15. Comment #14457 by denoir on December 22, 2006 at 2:18 pm

 avatarThe argument that the 2nd law of thermodynamics would be violated by evolution is one of the most silly arguments one could make. A non-evolutionary example of local entropy reduction is for instance the formation of crystal structures.

Other Comments by denoir

16. Comment #14460 by DerrickB on December 22, 2006 at 2:26 pm

Burgess is an old hand at this. Here is his book:

Title: The origin of man
Sub Title: The image of God or the image of an ape?

Overview:
Have humans descended from apes, or was man specially created? Do humans have unique characteristics and abilities that set them apart from all the animals? The answers to these crucial questions determine whether man is just an animal or a special spiritual being. This book shows that there is overwhelming evidence that man has a Creator. The book has many diagrams and includes: explanation of similarities between humans and apes; unique characteristics of humans; unique beauty of humans; archaeological and fossil evidence;
the importance and relevance of the origins debate.

Author Details:
Dr Stuart Burgess, BSc, PhD, CEng, MIMechE, is a Reader in Engineering Design at Bristol University. His research areas include the study of design in nature. He previously worked in industry, designing rocket and satellite systems for the European Space Agency. He is winner of the Worshipful Company of Turners Gold Medal for the design of the solar array deployment system on the £1.4 billion ENVISAT earth observation satellite.

McIntosh is involved with the Institute of Creation Research:
http://www.icr.org/research/index/research_physci_mcintosh/

"The Institute for Creation Research equips believers with evidences of the Bible's accuracy and authority through scientific research, educational programs, and media presentations, all conducted within a thoroughly biblical framework."

Other Comments by DerrickB

17. Comment #14465 by seals on December 22, 2006 at 2:56 pm

 avatarWow, I didnt realise they are genuinely cuckoo - truth is stranger than fiction.

Other Comments by seals

18. Comment #14468 by Nikki on December 22, 2006 at 3:03 pm

4. Comment #14428 by OUMedStudent on December 22, 2006 at 11:58 am
'It seems that Andy believes that there is some intrinsic property or information required simply to hold chemical bonds together. So his assessment is even worse than previously believed. Not only does he think Evolution by Natural Selection violates the Second Law, but he believes that without invoking divine machinery, the simple concept of a chemical bond would violate it as well.'
.
Oh dear! Do you suppose we could consider hydrophobic effects, pi stacking interactions,hydrogen bonding and electrostatic interactions, which maintain the stability of the DNA molecule, as intrinsic properties? (information I learnt in Ist year uni level biochemistry BTW!)
This guy (a professor?) obviously doesn't have much grounding in the way of chemistry! (or scientific reasoning, for that matter)

Other Comments by Nikki

19. Comment #14472 by michael fasher on December 22, 2006 at 3:14 pm

An exelent discusion of the second law in relation to evolution is in Paul Davies book The Origin of Life.

Other Comments by michael fasher

20. Comment #14474 by Haymoon on December 22, 2006 at 3:17 pm

 avatarApropos Dawkin's opening remarks

There used to be a saying in my youth (60 odd years ago)

"There all out of step except my Johnny"

Other Comments by Haymoon

21. Comment #14475 by toomanytribbles on December 22, 2006 at 3:24 pm

 avatar"2nd law fundamentalists don't realize they refute their own argument everytime they take a breath to utter it." -vadjong

exactly... will someone explain to me how it is that we can order our thoughts into arguments and tidy up our desks?

Other Comments by toomanytribbles

22. Comment #14477 by Nikki on December 22, 2006 at 3:39 pm

14. Comment #14455 by quork on December 22, 2006 at 2:02 pm
'You can find some of McIntosh's thoughts on thermodynamics and evolution expressed at the web site' Answers in Genesis:
http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/Area/isd/mcintosh.asp
.
I can't find anything in McIntosh's bio, which would qualify him to make assessments/judgements on biological or evolutionary processes.

Other Comments by Nikki

23. Comment #14478 by Nikki on December 22, 2006 at 3:46 pm

You have to wonder if Professor Andrew McIntosh can even say the word 'photosynthesis'. Still, the YECs proclaim any supporter who has a science degree, reguardless of his/her field of achievement.

Other Comments by Nikki

24. Comment #14479 by Roy_H on December 22, 2006 at 3:52 pm

 avatarWell The second law of thermodynamics thing is way above my head I am afraid,but as for the Earth only being 6000 years old? what about COMMON SENSE. A tiny little example, the white cliffs of Dover. Please do not try and convince me that those tiny little coccoliths built the great thicknesses of chalk in a few thousand years! Even the Victorian field Geologists could not agree with Lord Kelvin that the earth was only about 20 million years old,let alone 6000 years because of the great thickness of the stratigraphic column.

Other Comments by Roy_H

25. Comment #14481 by Sancus on December 22, 2006 at 4:08 pm

Thanks for the link, Nikki. When reading McIntosh's views, he seemed to me like a person terribly frightened at his own lack of knowledge about the universe. While an average scientist may humble herself before the difficulty of the task, and an excellent one may boldly introduce new salient ideas, McIntosh quickly prostrates himself to the safety of a literary work.

Other Comments by Sancus

26. Comment #14483 by 2Black on December 22, 2006 at 4:14 pm

Be interesting to know what these gentlemen say when given the counter argument that the earth isn't a closed system by virtue of the sun. I imagine they would have heard this argument once or twice?

Anyone care to enlighten?

Other Comments by 2Black

27. Comment #14485 by Martha on December 22, 2006 at 4:24 pm

 avatarRichard Dawkins is right, but the question is, why does he feel compelled to PROVE himself right against his obviously stupid and ignorant opponents? When I know I am right about X Y or Z I just know it and that is all that matters, to me!

Other Comments by Martha

28. Comment #14486 by robert s on December 22, 2006 at 4:31 pm

His job is to promote the understanding of science among the public. Challenging a professor who is promoting pseudo-science seems to be required by that.

Other Comments by robert s

29. Comment #14487 by Zaphod on December 22, 2006 at 4:31 pm

 avatarIt seems amazing that Andy McIntosh doesn't even understand his own subject. How can he possibly be so wrong. Has his religious conviction so warped him that he actually takes the word of an dusty text written by people who thought the world was flat over the mountains and mountains of evidence since.

Other Comments by Zaphod

30. Comment #14488 by Baz Y on December 22, 2006 at 4:38 pm

Thanks to Joadist for the quote 'God's days are not the same length as earthly days'.

For those of us who believe the earth to be about 4.6 billion years old, then a God-day would be about 657 million of our years, and Homo-Sapien's tenure about 5 minutes of God's time.

That's about how long it would take him to doodle a face in his breakfast cup's ring-mark. Might explain why he seems so little interested in his great creation, but I wonder what time Mrs. God will be wiping the table ...

Other Comments by Baz Y

31. Comment #14489 by Martha on December 22, 2006 at 4:42 pm

 avatarMissus God will be wiping the table for a very long time. A woman's work is NEVER done!

Other Comments by Martha

32. Comment #14491 by Homo economicus on December 22, 2006 at 5:02 pm

 avatarThe constant energy from the Sun reduces entropy on earth, allowing life to create order out of disorder. An energetic God librarian we do not need fellas.

These guys need ID cards so we know where they stand ;)

And now in accordance with the second law of thermodynamics I am off to bed as I am worn out.

Other Comments by Homo economicus

33. Comment #14500 by Dean Morrison on December 22, 2006 at 6:48 pm

 avatarActually even 'Answers in Genesis' says that the second law of thermodynamics is one that creationists shouldn't use:

http://www.answersingenesis.org/home/area/faq/dont_use.asp

even if on the basis of rather silly reasoning:

"The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics began at the Fall."

"This law says that the entropy ("disorder") of the universe increases over time, and some have thought that this was the result of the Curse. However, disorder isn't always harmful. An obvious example is digestion, breaking down large complex food molecules into their simple building blocks. Another is friction, which turns ordered mechanical energy into disordered heat—otherwise Adam and Eve would have slipped as they walked with God in Eden! "


Other Comments by Dean Morrison

34. Comment #14501 by Nikki on December 22, 2006 at 6:53 pm

26. Comment #14483 by 2Black on December 22, 2006 at 4:14 pm
"Be interesting to know what these gentlemen say when given the counter argument that the earth isn't a closed system by virtue of the sun. I imagine they would have heard this argument once or twice? Anyone care to enlighten?"

Talk Origins covers most of the YEC/IDiot claims well. I haven't yet read through this topic though.

"Thermodynamics, Evolution and Creationism"
http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/thermo.html

Other Comments by Nikki

35. Comment #14507 by Tremayne on December 22, 2006 at 9:52 pm

"Other supposed "pro-avis" creatures (half reptile/half bird) have never been found. The evidence is overwhelming that birds have always been birds, and is entirely consistent with their being created right at the beginning on Day 5, just as the Bible says." ~ Andrew McIntosh
Perhaps Dr. McIntosh is unaware (or refuses to candidly acknowledge) that several Archaeopteryx fossils have been unearthed within the last two centuries. The Archaeopteryx is considered by a substantial number of evolutionary biologists as one of any number of predicted transitional forms that provides compelling evidence in favor of evolution.

www.talkorigins.org/indexcc/CC/CC214_1.html



Other Comments by Tremayne

36. Comment #14511 by Roy_H on December 22, 2006 at 10:35 pm

 avatarPlus of course, other "transitional fossils" i.e. Tiktaalik, which shows both fish and amphibian characteristics, or the many mammal like reptile specimens that have been found in Permian and Triassic strata.

Other Comments by Roy_H

37. Comment #14518 by Richard Dawkins on December 23, 2006 at 1:07 am

Comment #14485 by Martha: "Richard Dawkins is right, but the question is, why does he feel compelled to PROVE himself right against his obviously stupid and ignorant opponents? When I know I am right about X Y or Z I just know it and that is all that matters, to me!"

Martha, you have a fair point. BUT. These are not ordinary creationist wingnuts. Both are professors at reputable universities, powerfully placed to influence hiring policy at those universities, and to influence successive generations of students. In Britain, 'Professor' doesn't just mean teacher as it does in some other countries. It means 'Head of Department' or of equivalent rank. McIntosh is actually Professor of Thermodynamics! On the Belfast radio show where I first encountered him a few weeks ago, one of the other contributors defended McIntosh's Young Earth Creationism by saying that it didn't affect his competence to teach his own subject. A creationist could teach thermodynamics but not biology, just as a flat earther could teach German but not geography. It was because of that that I went out of my way, on the same radio show, to Paxman him into confessing his belief that evolution contradicts the second law of thermodynamics. I repeated the point in the Letter to the Guardian which initiated the correspondence. That is the background to the article which heads this thread.
Richard

Other Comments by Richard Dawkins

38. Comment #14519 by Aussie on December 23, 2006 at 1:27 am

Show me just one informed atheist who believes the Earth is less than 6000 years old and I will be impressed.

On the other hand I can show you thousands of devout Christians who believe it is 4.5 billion years old.

The only people who feel a need to believe the former are those with a certain vested religious interpretation of their scripture.

Other Comments by Aussie

39. Comment #14520 by Aussie on December 23, 2006 at 1:40 am

That was a simple, concise and lucid explanation of the Second Law.

Really you need no more than a kindergarten understanding of Thermodynamics to appreciate its obvious application to evolution.

In all seriousness, and without meaning to be offensive to these academicians, one possible explanation that should be considered is dementia.

Other Comments by Aussie

40. Comment #14521 by fatcitymax on December 23, 2006 at 1:51 am

As an American I'm greatly relieved to find that the USA doesn't have exclusive claim to the type of pseudo-scientists exemplified by McIntosh and Burgess. Leeds and Bristol universities must be the UK equivalents of Liberty University in the US.

Other Comments by fatcitymax

41. Comment #14522 by Roy_H on December 23, 2006 at 1:56 am

 avatarI am reminded of John Playfair's remarks when he and James Hall were taken to Siccar Point in Scotland by Scottish geologist James Hutton (1726-97) :-
'We felt ourselves necessarily carried back to the time when the schistus on which we stood was yet at the bottom of the sea, and when the sandstone before us was only beginning to be deposited in the shape of sand or mud,from the waters of a superincumbent ocean. An epocha still more remote presented itself, when even the most ancient of these rocks, instead of standing upright in vertical beds, lay in horizontal planes at the bottom of the sea, and was not yet disturbed by that immeasurable force which had burst asunder the solid pavement of the globe.... The mind seemed to grow giddy by looking so far into the abyss of time.' (Transactions of the Royal Society of Edinburgh, vol. V, pt. III, 1805)
In other words, over two hundred years ago, the early geologists had a better understanding of the history of the Earth than these present day "Wingnuts" ( I love the word Richard! )This is of course, way before Rutherford's discovery of radioactive decay.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Siccar_Point.jpg

Other Comments by Roy_H

42. Comment #14523 by RascoHeldall on December 23, 2006 at 2:12 am

"Well The second law of thermodynamics thing is way above my head I am afraid,but as for the Earth only being 6000 years old? what about COMMON SENSE. A tiny little example, the white cliffs of Dover. Please do not try and convince me that those tiny little coccoliths built the great thicknesses of chalk in a few thousand years!"

A but that's only because God made it LOOK as if they would take that long to build. Such is the majesty and wonder of our Lord's work!

I'm joking, of course! I can't even begin to understand what would drive a university professor to lie about his own field of study to promote a patently false medieval worldview. (Deep, pathological intellectual cowardice, perhaps?) All I know is that he is abusing his position and disgracing his university. That he has received support in this from a colleague is depressing. No-one is contesting the right to personal religious belief, but what must surely be sanctioned against in the strongest possible terms is people using the authority of their qualifications to perpetrate falsehoods defending them.

By the way, I never heard back from McIntosh after replying to his email to me last week (or from any of the heads of science I copied in).

Other Comments by RascoHeldall

43. Comment #14526 by Joadist on December 23, 2006 at 2:25 am

I try to find time to laugh at Creationists who claim that the earth is 6000 years old.

But I cannot. I am too busy laughing at American Jingoists who believe the earth was created on July 4, 1776.

Other Comments by Joadist

44. Comment #14527 by Aussie on December 23, 2006 at 2:30 am

Joadist,

Love it!

Other Comments by Aussie

45. Comment #14528 by Roger Stanyard on December 23, 2006 at 2:42 am

 avatarWe have a long article on Stuart Burgess on our web site at http://www.bcseweb.org.uk/index.php/Main/StuartBurgess

Burgess toured schools in Northern Ireland in 2004 pushing his hocus pocus. At the time he was on record as saying that he did not want children to use the theory of evolution on the day of judgement as an excuse. Somewhere he is also on record as saying that he wants to frighten children into not accepting the theory of evolution (sorry I don't have the reference but it was on a BBC programme).

Now this is from a very senior educator in the UK! He is openly claiming that what people should believe in science should be based on fear. What happened to the open enquiring mind?

Seems to me that Burgess has accepted one rule for himself (academic freedom) and another for the rest of Britain (fear).

Burgess is not a potty professor from nowhere. He is at a highly respected university. Moreover, he has long actively been working with Andy McIntosh to get creationism into the classroom (call it ID if you like - same thing). He was a signatory to the notorious 2002 letter to Estelle Morris – McIntosh was spokesman for the 27 signatories). He's co-authored a creationist book with McIntosh. He's been involved with the Biblical Creation Society and Answers in Genesis alongside McIntosh and he is active in truth in Science which McIntosh heads.

In fact he is leading member of the small inner core "team" of academic "creationists" in the UK (there are about eight or nine of them and most of them are closely associated with each other in a number of creationist organisations – they do not work independently of each other) and his views are probably even more frightening than McIntosh's. David Tyler who's letter was published in the Guardian alongside than of Burgess is another in the "team".

Believe you me, the creationists in the UK are well organised and well funded. Burgess is not working on his own in the movement.

Burgess claims that Modern Cosmology and the Theory of Evolution are no more than "ploys by Satan to divert man from belief in God and a literal interpretation of Genesis".

According to the Brights movement in the UK, Burgess claims that, "There is a case for arguing that Satan has deliberately made modern theoretical physics complicated in order to blind people to the truth of the origins of the universe."

(How this stacks up with his public claims that the world and life was created by God 6,000 years ago is quite beyond me.)

One of the most famous graduates of Bristol University was the Nobel Prize winning theoretical physicist, Paul Dirac. Dirac studied electrical engineering and mathematics at Bristol.

The Brights went on to point out to the University of Bristol that Burgess was suggesting that Dirac was in league with the devil. The Brights also pointed out that Burgess had claimed that he could prove that both Darwin and Einstein were wrong. Burgess believes that the Theory of Evolution is an "absurd and shallow deception."

Well, no such paper proving Einstein was wrong appears to have been published by Burgess and the I fully expect no such paper will ever emerge from Burgess in a proper peer-reviewed journal.

BCSE's research of recent increasingly points to the whole creationist movement in the UK being predominantly backed and run by Baptists of various persuasions (most Baptists, though, appear not to accept creationism). Burgess is a Baptist.

I have to state in public the BCSE's position here. Our view is that creationism is not a war between religious believers and atheists. It's a war between religious extremists and the rest of humanity including the religious. It's about time some of the latter (especially in the Church of England) woke up to this.

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46. Comment #14531 by canicula on December 23, 2006 at 3:12 am

 avatarThis fondness that the creationist have for wheeling out so-called scientists who claim that evolution is wrong/unscientific, and compiling name-lists of sympathisers "look, over a hundred scientists in the US think evolution is wrong" reminds me of something I read about Einstein.

In 1930s Germany a book was published entitled "100 Authors Against Einstein". The great man's response: "Why 100? If I was wrong, one would be enough."

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47. Comment #14533 by perfectelise on December 23, 2006 at 3:36 am

Comment #14428 by OUMedStudent: "Not only does he [McIntosh] think Evolution by Natural Selection violates the Second Law, but he believes that without invoking divine machinery, the simple concept of a chemical bond would violate it as well."

Right at the end of the exchange on Sunday Sequence, McIntosh seems to say that Evolution violates the 2nd Law BECAUSE it cannot explain the necessary machinery in living cells. The 2nd Law argument is a red herring - an abuse of his postion.

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48. Comment #14536 by oeditor on December 23, 2006 at 3:53 am

Joadist wrote
>When asked how God could have created the Universe >in a period of Seven 24-Hour days, he explained:
>
>God's Days are not the same length as Earthly days.

McIntosh would dispute this. He makes no bones about it - he believes that the six creation days were of 24hours each.

Brian

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49. Comment #14542 by Nikki on December 23, 2006 at 4:34 am

45. Comment #14528 by Roger Stanyard
"It's a war between religious extremists and the rest of humanity including the religious."

Hear, hear!
Surely the more moderate religious (of all persuasions), are becoming increasingly aware of the damage these extremists are doing to tolerance of religion in general. They must stand up and be counted.

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50. Comment #14543 by ridelo on December 23, 2006 at 4:34 am

Many years ago a couple of Jehova's witnesses called at my door for the first time. As a just started science teacher I wanted to debate with them evolution theory and let them into my home. After a while of fruitless argumenting one of them shut his book with a smack and said: "We are doing it the wrong way around. The first thing you have to do is studying the bible and then your arguments pro evolution will melt away as snow in the sun."
Maybe he was right. I think that those otherwise intelligent professors as youngsters have been immersed in a biblical atmosphere that has made an ineffable imprint on their 'souls'.
Does somebody know people like them who eventually were converted to rationalism? Or are they 'doomed' beyond salvation?
I was brought up a catholic. My grandmother prayed with us almost every day. Maybe my luck was that my parents were not very ardent believers. They carried out their sunday duties but not with very much enthousiasm. I suspect that things were different in those professors homes.

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