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Friday, December 22, 2006 | Science : Evolution and Biology | print version Print | Comments

Document The Only One in Step

by Richard Dawkins

I can't find the original volume so I may have got the exact words wrong, but I recall one of those marvellous old Punch cartoons in which every last detail is painstakingly explained. A devoted mother is looking proudly on at a military parade as her son's platoon marches past: "There's my boy, he's the only one in step!" On The Guardian letters page of December 19th 2006, I initiated an exchange about Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university, who has publicly stated that he believes the world is only 6,000 years old, and publicly stated that the theory of evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Both these beliefs place McIntosh out of step with his scientific colleagues, not just his platoon but the entire regiment — to paraphrase Evelyn Waugh, the whole ruddy division. Amazingly, McIntosh is Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, and, equally amazingly, a letter supporting him has now appeared from Professor Stuart Burgess, Head of the Department of Mechanical Engineering at Bristol University . Other letters to the Editor indicate that a distressing number of otherwise knowledgeable and intelligent people have little conception of the enormity of what is being said.

Science doesn't work by vote and it doesn't work by authority. It is possible that Burgess and McIntosh really are the only ones in step, and the whole scientific establishment is flat wrong. Indeed, I shall bias my discussion in their favour by continuing to use that word 'establishment' with all its pejorative overtones of fuddyduddy, stick-in-the-muddy authoritarianism. I like mavericks. I like free spirits who buck the trend and strike out on their own. They are not usually right, but on the rare occasions when they are, they are very right indeed: importantly so, and all power to them. Maybe Burgess and McIntosh are right and all the rest of us — biologists, geologists, archeologists, historians, chemists, physicists, cosmologists and, yes, thermodynamicists and respectable theologians, the vast majority of Nobel Prizewinners, Fellows of the Royal Society and of the National Academies of the world — are wrong. Not just slightly wrong but catastrophically, appallingly, devastatingly wrong. It is possible, and I am going to follow that possibility through to its logical conclusion. I shall not here defend the views held by the scientific establishment. I am among those who have done that elsewhere, in many books. My purpose in this article is only to convey the full magnitude of the error into which, if Burgess and McIntosh are right, the scientific establishment has fallen.

First, the age of the Earth. McIntosh thinks, on bliblical authority alone, that it is less than 10,000 years. We establishment fuddyduddies think, using mutually corroborating evidence from many sources including several different radioactive isotopes in the rocks, that it is about 4.6 billion years. I shall not say here why I think we are right and McIntosh wrong. Instead, I shall simply calculate the magnitude of the difference between the two estimates. We of the 'establishment' think the Earth is 460,000 times older than McIntosh's estimate. It is as though McIntosh estimated the height of a man as 6 feet and then accused the rest of us of believing that the same man was 460,000 times as tall, or 521 miles. Or, looking the other way, it is as though McIntosh looked at the establishment geographers' measurement of the distance from New York to San Francisco and claimed that the true distance from sea to shining sea was 460,000 times smaller, namely about ten yards. Maybe McIntosh is right and all the rest of us wrong. All I have done here is calculate how spectacularly wrong we would be, if McIntosh is right.

Turning now to the Second Law of Thermodynamics, this is a topic on which Andrew McIntosh, as Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, might be thought to speak with special authority. He is backed up by Stuart Burgess, Head of Bristol's Department of Mechanical Engineering, which is another subject in which thermodynamics is paramount and central. Both these men have stated their authoritative opinion that the theory of evolution violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. Nothing violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. The great astrophyisicist Sir Arthur Eddington put it with memorable irony. "If someone points out to you that your pet theory of the universe is in disagreement with Maxwell's equations — then so much the worse for Maxwell's equations. If it is found to be contradicted by observation — well, these experimentalists do bungle things sometimes. But if your theory is found to be against the second law of thermodynamics I can give you no hope; there is nothing for it but to collapse in deepest humiliation." It is not for nothing that C P Snow used familiarity with the Second Law as his litmus test of scientific literacy.

The Second Law states that, in a closed system without external energy fed in from outside, entropy always increases. Entropy is often said to mean disorder, but in some ways the word 'mixed-upness' (Willard Gibbs's coining) fits better. A familiar metaphor is that of a library. If the readers in a library always leave books lying around on the tables, or shove them back on the shelves at random, the library will become increasingly disordered. To remain in a state of order, it needs an energetic librarian, constantly working to put books back on their proper shelves, and constantly checking the shelves for misplaced volumes. It is not that libraries have a magnetic attraction or an urgent drive towards a particular goal state called disorder. It is simply that the number of states of a library that we would call disordered is much greater than the tiny minority of states that we would recognize as ordered. There are many more ways of being disordered than of being ordered. No work needs to be done to drive a library toward one of the many states that we call disordered. It will just happen, willy nilly, unless energetic work is done to prevent the otherwise inevitable slide downhill into disorder.

The Second Law recognizes a similar downhill slide towards disorder in any closed system such as the universe, which lacks a source of externally supplied energy. In a local region with externally supplied energy, on the other hand, we may see what look like reversals, but the stress must be on 'local' and 'externally supplied'. Life on Earth may evolve towards greater complexity and increased order, but this is only possible because of a massive transfusion of energy from the sun. To return to the library analogy, natural selection, the nonrandom survival of successful genes in gene pools, could be called the librarian of life. And the energy to power it comes ultimately from the sun. The overall trend of the thermodynamic river is still downhill. But a small tithe of the sun's energy is trapped by plants and used to power a trickle in the reverse direction. This reverse trickle is to be found not only in evolution but in the physiology of every individual organism, and in many chemical reactions. It is like a ram pump, which uses the energy of a flowing river to pump a small quantity of the water uphill.

Once again, it is not my purpose here to argue for the validity of the Second Law. It is undisputed. Nor is it my purpose to defend evolution against the charge of violating it. My purpose is again to convey the sheer magnitude of the error that Burgess and McIntosh are attributing to their hugely more numerous 'establishment' colleagues, who accept evolution and supply cogent arguments against the suggestion that it violates the Second Law. As with the age of the Earth, this is not some minor, recondite dispute among scientists. It is a monumental disagreement. One side or the other has got to be wrong, and not just slightly wrong but catastrophically, ignominiously, disastrously wrong. Evolutionists are accused of believing in a theory that violates the Second Law of Thermodynamics. If Burgess and McIntosh are right, almost all the scientists in the world should, in Eddington's words, 'collapse in deepest humiliation.' If they are right, evolution has to be ruled out, not because of some evidential problems or deficiencies as is common in science, but for a much more radical reason. Evolution, on their view, is completely and utterly ruled out for the same kind of reason as a patent inspector will reject a design for a perpetual motion machine without even looking at it. We earlier saw that McIntosh is, in effect, accusing the scientific establishment of believing that a man is 521 miles tall. Now we see that he also accuses us of believing something as absurd as that a river will run uphill. Maybe he is right on both counts, but the sheer magnitude of the error attributed to the rest of us should at least give him pause. When I say it is not a minor mistake we scientists are accused of, I am giving a whole new depth of meaning to the word understatement.


Richard Dawkins FRS is the Charles Simonyi Professor of the Public Understanding of Science at Oxford University. His books include The Selfish Gene, The Blind Watchmaker, Climbing Mount Improbable, The Ancestor's Tale and, most recently, The God Delusion.

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101. Comment #17159 by gimlibengloin on January 11, 2007 at 10:43 am

Hoddlwood (96)

Actually McIntosh does have biological credentials. The UK's Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council in 2003 funded McIntosh to lead a three year project on the Bombadier Beetles defensive mechanism and to find possible biometric applications for it. See
www.epsr.ac.uk/PressReleases/BeetlesCouldProveAHitWithTheAircraftIndustry
So at least in the area of this little criter (ie the Beetle not McIntosh ho, ho) McIntosh does have biological expertise

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

102. Comment #17175 by seals on January 11, 2007 at 12:47 pm

 avatar100. Comment #17156
... The fact is that MacIntosh and Burgess are more qualified to judge the viability of evolution because they are engineers. CS Lewis said that when Bible scholars refer to something in the Bible as a myth what he wanted to know was how much myth they'd read not how long they'd spent studying the Bible. The reason being that it was only by obtaining a wide familiarity with myth that anyone could be capable of determining anything in the Bible as myth. The same principle applies with MacIntosh etc. Because they know what design looks like and what is required to create it they are more qualified to judge the origin of living organisms than Richard Dawkins who has no such background.


Hmmm its not clear what CS Lewis meant by that - are we supposed to regard it as true in some way, if so which way? too vague. I guess it depends how you define "myth". Maybe someone dreamed it all up ... there is a dreamlike quality about the bible, or maybe nightmare would be more accurate.

The theory of evolution was suggested by Charles Darwin, not Richard Dawkins. It doesn't say there is no design in living organisms - it maintains they are designed by a force of nature, natural selection, with no need for a god in the biblical sense. Heh, if you were god, would you want to spend time designing pests like cockroaches, those hideous wee bugs that live in the carpet and appear on Dyson adverts, flies that crawl around on dogs excrement, etc.

Ever heard the saying "At first I couldn't spell engineer, now I are one" - maybe more truth in it than I thought... I reckon McIntosh may be "no quite the full shilling"!

101. Comment #17159
... So at least in the area of this little criter (ie the Beetle not McIntosh ho, ho) McIntosh does have biological expertise


- but doesn't that make him actually less qualified to "judge the viability of evolution" as you stated in comment 100?

Other Comments by seals

103. Comment #17177 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 11, 2007 at 1:21 pm

Ridelo - I used to be 'Christian'. Indeed, it was rammed into me. Growing older, we all grow wiser [and hopefully more knowledgeable], I've rejected all supernatural superstition. I only really celebrate Christmas - as a nice way to end a year - and scoff Easter eggs! Yum yum!

Professor Dawkins has done it again! Done what? Explained difficult scientific subjects to mere laymen like myself [and with an average I.Q of 125, I am most grateful!].

But what's going on here Professor?

>>I initiated an exchange about Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university, who has publicly stated that he believes the world is only 6,000 years old, and publicly stated that the theory of evolution violates the second law of thermodynamics. Both these beliefs place McIntosh out of step with his scientific colleagues, not just his platoon but the entire regiment – to paraphrase Evelyn Waugh, the whole ruddy division. Amazingly, McIntosh is Professor of Thermodynamics at Leeds, and, equally amazingly, a letter supporting him has now appeared from Professor Stuart Burgess, Head of the Department of Mechanical Engineering at Bristol University .<<

Call me cynical, naive or plain idiotic, but could money be exchanging hands here? Can a Professor of Thermodynamics - who by the very title and status, must know his subject matter, be coerced via financial blessings?

It makes no sense to me at all! Having read some of Professor McIntosh's comments in here and from students of the same University, one wonders what agenda is being played out? If it is a case that this man just wants to believe - fine - but leave science out of it! Professor McIntosh harms science, when he makes comments like this. Why? Because, the ordinary laymen [like myself] outside the realm of scientific study, then get confused into who we should trust or who we should believe.

I'm sorry Professor McIntosh. The Earth cannot be 6,000 years old. For that to be the case, all scientific data gathered to the contrary, must be some sort of illusion.

Keep up the good work Professor Dawkins! I am now on page 183 of TGD and page 100 of The Selfish Gene. Your works make far more sense to me, than the Bible or anything the likes of Professor McIntosh babble about.

Other Comments by NoLongerHaveBelief

104. Comment #17178 by gimlibengloin on January 11, 2007 at 1:34 pm

Seals (102)

By "myth" Lewis meant as opposed to 'historical fact'. Lewis argued that NT scholars like Bultmann though experts in the minute analysis of portions of scripture lacked the depth and width of reading necessary to judge whether something was historical or not. He said that he had been reading myth, legend, poetry, vision literature all his life and he knew what they were like. he said none of them are like the gospels. He asserted that the gospels must be historical narratives even though they could contain errors.

"doesn't that actually make him less qualified".

Your just trying to be clever now aren't you? I was simply pointing out that he does have biological credentials. that actually means he's more qualified because he has both whereas Dawkins THOUGH a biologist lacks the knowledge in design that McIntosh and Burgess have.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

105. Comment #17187 by robert s on January 11, 2007 at 2:50 pm

Surely 'knowledge of design' is only useful if organisms are actually designed.

If they're not, then such knowledge might predjudice one to see design even when looking at the results of a natural process.

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106. Comment #17189 by roach on January 11, 2007 at 3:17 pm

I've seen a greater number of engineers supporting ID than any other scientist. I suppose this makes sense given the fact that engineers make their living designing things. I respect engineers. Their practical application of science is directly responsible for civilization as we know it. But with all their knowledge of thermodynamics and their ingenuity, I don't understand how they can escape the infinite regress and simply magic God/The Creator into existence and be satisfied with that explanation.

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107. Comment #17190 by seals on January 11, 2007 at 3:30 pm

 avatarRe 104. Comment #17178 by gimlibengloin

Sorry just thinking aloud... it just looks like you are trying to have it both ways. If the workings of the body can be deduced from engineering, if the engineer is the expert on design, why does anyone bother with the study of biology, I wonder. Maybe we should consult Terence Conran too. (However if I understand it, the debate is not design versus no design, its design by god versus design by natural selection)

You'd think the engineer would try to make out the body is purely mechanical, not the creation of god?

Anyhow - Unbelievers go to hell. Those who have faith go to heaven. There's a lot at stake here... so, when someone has faith why do they then go seeking evidence, try to reason things out? if evidence is needed, isn't that like cheating to shore up faith, but actually ends up adulterating that faith? Once evidence is accepted as a valid criterion in establishing the truth, it can only weaken faith. IMO if faith is god's test to determine those worthy of heaven, no god worth his salt would be leaving clues in the design of animal bodies.

Other Comments by seals

108. Comment #17240 by gimlibengloin on January 12, 2007 at 9:17 am

Robert s (105)

I understand your point but one can only look at the evidence and draw a conclusion. The engineer (especially of mcintosh's calibre) can look at a living organism and argue that he sees the same attention to detail, correspondence to mathematical and physical laws, ingenuity of design that he sees in man made structures only at a higher level. Naturally, therefore, one draws the conclusion of ID. Who the desiner is is another question.

Roach (106)

Infinite regress is a good question but nevertheless is surely a seperate one. We see structures all the time that we recognise as examples of ID even though we don't know the designer or his purpose. If life looks designed then it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that it is. Once we've drawn that conclusion we can then start debating identity and purpose.


Seals (107)

Whoah. I'm still thinking through that one.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

109. Comment #17246 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on January 12, 2007 at 9:48 am

 avatarIf life looks designed then it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that it is. Once we've drawn that conclusion we can then start debating identity and purpose.

Sure, if you have no other information to hand. At first glance much looks obvious, that everything orbits the earth, or that heavy things fall faster than light things. Yet all wrong, so it is with the design fallacy.

Much we have discovered about the physical world is counter intuitive, and lets not get started on quantum physics.

If you are a naked human on the steppes 30,000 years ago, the world looks designed. If you are a 21st century human with access to the vast amounts of knowledge accrued in the last 100 years, you know that design is a weak cop out, almost everything we now know points against it.

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110. Comment #17321 by Simon Packer on January 12, 2007 at 10:52 pm

All the creationists/IDers I know of including MacIntosh and myself believe in natural selection. The question is on what does natural selection work and how far can natural selection alter a given organism.
I believe an organism can evolve within certain boundaries by breeding and natural selection. The evidence for anything more advanced than a micro-organism mutating in a constructive manner is very limited. Even within the above restriction commonly referred to as micro-evolution, I believe the diversification allowed is a function of the forethought of the designer.
The late SJ Gould I believe acknowledged the discontinuities in the fossil record and postulated hopeful mutations which were major step changes in an organism in one generation. Besides stretching credulity to the limit in the sense of expecting a mutation to suddenly result in a meaningful and viable substantially different species, it raises the question of where Mrs Hopeful Mutation came from and how they met.
Natural Selection requires certain conditions before it can operate. It requires a reproduction/birth/death cycle, it requires a survival instinct, and arguably a discrimonatory environment. Which came first, natural selection requiring an organism which could fight for survival or the organism capable of fighting for survival? If the second, how did it get here?
I and any engineer will tell you we have failed to replicate the wonder of the natural order and our understanding of it remains superficial. The issue behind MacIntosh's postulate (stated on the Truth in Science website)is that many Laws of Physics are universal as far as we know, and if we are using the scientific method we must postulate a mechanism for an observed departure from them. Of course, we are postulating God. In my case aqnd I believe in the case of Burgess and MacIntosh we believe Almighty God is revealed in the Bible.

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111. Comment #17523 by gimlibengloin on January 14, 2007 at 12:20 pm

Brian (109)

'"If life looks designed then it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that it is. Once we've drawn that conclusion we can then start debating identity and purpose.'"

'Sure, if you have no other information to hand. If you are a 21st century human with access to the vast amounts of knowledge accrued in the last 100 years, you know that design is a weak cop out, almost everything we now know points against it.'

As per usual, Brian, your talking drivel and you fail to support your claims with any evidence. Why? because all the evidence is against the Darwinian metaphysics that you have decided to put your faith in.
All modern evidence shows that organisms do not evolve but under the operation of natural selection and/or random mutation information is LOST. examples given by evolutionists like dawkins are mere illusions promoted by charlatens. for example, in The Blind Watchmaker dawkins cites the vast variety of dogs - bulldogs, labradors, poodles etc all derived from a few wild dogs in a few thousand years. However, (1) they're all dogs (2) they're the result of intelligent breeding (3) they're examples of devolution and the diminishment of the gene pool. Put a poodle out on its own in the wild and it will get slaughtered.
All experiments with fruitflies have failed to produce anything put a fruit fly.
Living organisms are divided and seperate by bridgeless gaps as the evolutionist Steven stanley says, "In the absense of a fossil record........we might wonder whether the doctrine of evolution would qualify as anything more than an outrageous hypothesis" p2 Macroevolution.

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

112. Comment #17524 by gimlibengloin on January 14, 2007 at 12:25 pm

Brian cont...

And as for the fossil record, well. We can't discuss that can we because you just refuse to heed the evidence. Any quotes from evolutionists you immediately dismiss as misquotes or quote mining all because you can't bear the truth. Instead you choose to rely on internet websites which acknowledge their own scientific shortfallings but at least they allow you to maintain your faith in evolutionary fairytales.

Still I do believe that the November 2004 edition of National Geographic stated that the fossil record is like a film of evolution in which 999 of a thousand frames are missing. As creationists have pointed out 99.9 % of the evidence for evolution aint there, baby

Other Comments by gimlibengloin

113. Comment #17528 by roach on January 14, 2007 at 2:10 pm

gimlibengloin says:

Infinite regress is a good question but nevertheless is surely a seperate one. We see structures all the time that we recognise as examples of ID even though we don't know the designer or his purpose. If life looks designed then it is reasonable to draw the conclusion that it is. Once we've drawn that conclusion we can then start debating identity and purpose.

Separate from what? I don't understand. Maybe it's because i came into this discussion late.

The designer conclusion strikes me as very unsatisfactory because while i suppose we could start debating indentity and purpose, we have no way of objectively knowing. Is it one designer or is it a team? What does this designer want of us? Who/what is this designer? All these questions and many more would be asked and I don't see how any of them could be properly answered. The designer would be subject to every variation the human mind is capable of dreaming.

More importantly, if we were to accept that the only way to explain the amzaing complexity of the natural world is to conjure a designer, that designer would have to be very very complex indeed. In fact, the designer or God (let's be honest) would be so complex that the only way to explain it's existence would be to postulate yet another designer. Repeat this forever and that's what you get when you assert that it is reasonable to conclude that life is designed because it looks designed. It explains nothing.

Other Comments by roach

114. Comment #17531 by jeff_n on January 14, 2007 at 2:43 pm

gimlibengloin says:
All experiments with fruitflies have failed to produce anything put a fruit fly.

So what would you expect? An elephant? Of course you'll get another fruit fly! The test of whether speciation has occurred is whether you can breed two or more populations of fruit flies that can't or won't interbreed. This has been done many times (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciation).

The currently accepted biological explanations of speciation are complex and difficult for laymen to follow. I don't know a great deal about it but if I ever feel a pressing need to understand it I'll study the subject with an open mind, or I'll ask an evolutionary biologist, whose job it is to study such things. I certainly wouldn't ask someone who's only read ill-informed criticisms of it and who thinks that anything difficult to understand can be explained by invoking a magic sky fairy.

If you're really interested in the subject there's a FAQ about it at http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/faq-speciation.html

Other Comments by jeff_n

115. Comment #17548 by Fedler on January 14, 2007 at 4:49 pm

 avatargimlibengloin: Still I do believe that the November 2004 edition of National Geographic stated that the fossil record is like a film of evolution in which 999 of a thousand frames are missing. As creationists have pointed out 99.9 % of the evidence for evolution aint there, baby

Considering 99% of ALL species to EVER inhabit our planet are now extinct, I doubt many biologists or evolutionists would ever claim the fossil record is 100% proof of evolution. To the theist, your statement puts the nail in the coffin of evolution. To the rational thinker who doesn't logically expect the fossil record to be 100% proof of evolution, yoiur statement lacks an incredible amount of thought. Dawkins admits that with all the fossils currently discovered, it is only a portion of 1% of all the species that have ever lived. To say 99.9% of the evidence for evolution isn't there is to also say you are 99.9% ignorant of the fossil records. As you say, 99.9% of the fossil records remain to be discovered - a little early to throw up our hands and say "See, creationism/god wins!" Far from it, my friend...

Other Comments by Fedler

116. Comment #17601 by Hoddlwood on January 15, 2007 at 4:40 am

gimlibengloin (101)

This example you cite is irrelevant. Firstly because studying a beetle from a design perspective is not the same as studying how it might have evolved. McIntosh is simply engaging in reverse engineering, this has nothing to do with biology as such.

Secondly, it does not take away the fact that McIntosh does not hold an O-level in a subject he criticises. I mentioned it simply because you seem to think we should defer to his credentials as a scientist rather than judge him on what he actually says (although both of these are evidence enough of his dogmatic stupidity on matters concerning evolution).

Thirdly, McIntosh thinks that the world is 6,000 years old and he believes the "word of God (i.e. the bible) is infallible" (his words) therefore his credentials as a scientist have to be doubted, keen as he is to let the bible cloud his interpretation of the evidence. No one, except for theologically inspired idiots, thinks that the world is this young. Everything Mcintosh says about science must be doubted because of this; that is why he is considered to be such a fool by other scientists.

Think what you like about evolution, but accept this one thing – its opponents are, to a man, critical purely because it conflicts with their faith. Where are the atheist deniers of evolutionary evidence? Nowhere. Those that doubt it do so because of their faith not because of a supposed lack of evidence. This is not science, and it should not be taught in schools as such.

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117. Comment #17637 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 8:36 am

Blind orthodoxy once revolved around religion in this country. It now perhaps revolves around 'scientific' concensus.
There were regretable mistakes made by the organised church regarding orbital mechanics, but that does not mean we are an a continuum of popular scientific concensus meaning absolute truth and displacing Biblical authority.
The idea that faith is some kind of blind contradiction of all logic is an idea Richard Dawkins has pushed in the past but it is really and truly not a valid perspective. God is the Father of both physical law and logic. Winston Churchill wrote that he expected the final outcome of the scientific method to converge with scripture. God just asks believers to sometimes act in faith (trust in God's faithfulness) when we are not able to gain a rational certainty of outcome.
In terms of the old one of who designed God, you have to stop somewhere with a non-designed, non created entity. The Bible teaches that God is eternal. He has no need of a creator. His name given to Moses was I AM. Jesus said to the Jews 'Before Abraham was, I AM'. They clearly understood that Jesus was saying that he was God, and attempted to stone him. Jeus was begotten, not made, in his deity. This is a word that has slipped out of common usage.

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118. Comment #17639 by JohnC on January 15, 2007 at 8:42 am

 avatarSimon, you may want to check the spelling of words such as "consensus" before you deliver yourself of the perfect confirmation of everything Richard has said in TGD.

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119. Comment #17640 by epeeist on January 15, 2007 at 8:48 am

 avatar"...you have to stop somewhere with a non-designed, non created entity"

Why do you have to? You are simply asserting this, you offer no evidence. Go back to the scholastics, who codified much of Aristotelean logic and you will find that this is known as the fallacy of appeal to authority.

"It now perhaps revolves around 'scientific' concensus[sic]." Scientific consensus is evidence based. Should a critical experiment be made that shows a theory is wrong then the theory will be discarded, regardless of what the level of consensus is.

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120. Comment #17643 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 8:52 am

John, sorry about the spelling mistake. Perhaps you would like to answer the points, and the ones about the limitations of natural selection in 110 above?
The real issue is probably that you do not wish to acknowledge the fact that your life will be accountable to God, so you attempt to explain him away.
Richard can help you with this, but only if you badly want to believe it already.

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121. Comment #17644 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 9:03 am

Scientific consensus is the prevailing paradigm through which the evidence is viewed. As an engineer, if that paradigm is supported by a mathematical model or even some concise predictions, it becomes more and more plausible. All I see with the geological timescale and the interpretations of the fossil record allegedly supporting evolution are hypothesising without solid verification. The evidence simply is not there. I wonder how RD would set about verifying the design of, say, a suggested new format of electric motor? We are dealing with a very loose high-level philosophical interpretation of a huge amount of data. There are no rigorous numerical models, no consistent evolutionary pathways, huge numbers of detailed problems, many volumes of waffle, but no reasonably proven theory.
You really have to want to believe it.

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122. Comment #17648 by VanYoungman on January 15, 2007 at 9:19 am

 avatarWho is the Mother of physical law and logic?

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123. Comment #17649 by jeff_n on January 15, 2007 at 9:39 am

Simon Packer says:
The late SJ Gould I believe acknowledged the discontinuities in the fossil record and postulated hopeful mutations which were major step changes in an organism in one generation. Besides stretching credulity to the limit in the sense of expecting a mutation to suddenly result in a meaningful and viable substantially different species, it raises the question of where Mrs Hopeful Mutation came from and how they met.

Which is why Gould's ideas about macroevolution were regarded as ludicrous by almost all evolutionary biologists. Richard Dawkin's was his most vociferous opponent. If you're basing your opposition to evolution on Gould's work, you're missing the point: the overwhelming consensus among evolutionary biologists is that all evolution is microevolution.

Simon Packer says:
Natural Selection requires certain conditions before it can operate. It requires a reproduction/birth/death cycle, it requires a survival instinct, and arguably a discrimonatory environment. Which came first, natural selection requiring an organism which could fight for survival or the organism capable of fighting for survival? If the second, how did it get here?

Natural selection is not a "thing" that can sensibly be said to exist independently of competing organisms. It's just a name given to the process whereby organisms that are in some way better able to survive an environment than competing organisms are more likely to leave more offspring.

Simon Packer says:
The issue behind MacIntosh's postulate (stated on the Truth in Science website)is that many Laws of Physics are universal as far as we know, and if we are using the scientific method we must postulate a mechanism for an observed departure from them.

But life doesn't depart from any known laws of physics. MacIntosh is pretty much alone in arguing that life contravenes the second law of thermodynamics.

In fact, all you're really doing is looking for weaknesses in the theory of evolution in order to find "gaps" where divine intervention might sound plausible to those who don't understand science. This is simply cynical and dishonest. If you really believe engineers know more about evolutionary biology than specialists in that field, let's see you get your ideas published in a respected peer-reviewed journal. Otherwise it's just another in a long line of "God-of-the-gaps" arguments.

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124. Comment #17650 by JohnC on January 15, 2007 at 9:42 am

 avatarSimon, if you want a real discussion then it has to be about biology, not engineering. And we need to agree on our premises. The main proponents of ID, Behe and Dembski, do not deny either the fact of common descent and its analogue, the evolution of species through descent with modification. They challenge that natural selection is an adequate explanation for the observed evolutionary process.

Do you agree with this? If yes, we can proceed to the next part of the discussion. If no, could you please outline what explanation and scientific model you propose.

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125. Comment #17676 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 12:53 pm

Jeff_n
I am not looking for a God of the Gaps.
The Bible says 'In Him we live and move and have our being'.
I am saying that the theory of evolution has been overstretched from it's legitimate boundaries. I believe in evolution by natural selection within a God-ordained and designed 'type'.
I believe natural selection is unlikely to have been responsible for getting life off the ground for the reasons I stated. This does not rule it out as a subsequent mechanism for modification/specialisation within a 'type' or 'kind'. It seems unlikely to me that it has produced more complex species. Here most people intuitively know what a more complex species is, though I know this is another area where Gould and Dawkins disagreed over; whether evolution was progressing in the direction of increased complexity, defined as information.
In short, I believe God set the whole creation in motion and allowed it to diversify within certain boundaries. I believe certain changes occured at the Fall of Man (Genesis 3).
I am undecided on whether there may have been previous episodes of creation prior to the current one, though McIntosh thinks not.
My comment on physical laws was ill thought out I agree. I think McIntosh is saying that if evolution happens it contradicts what we know about mechanisms required to reduce entropy. It is another chicken and egg situation. He said
'The principles of thermodynamics even in open systems do not allow a new function using raised free energy levels to be achieved without new machinery. And new machines are not made by simply adding energy to existing machines.
And this thesis is falsifiable. If anyone was to take an existing chemical machine and produce a different chemical machine which was not there before (either as a sub-part or latently coded for in the DNA template) then this argument would have been falsified.'
To produce a condition of reduced entropy in the thermodynamic sense takes a machine. Raised free energy levels equals reduced entropy. This is always true in Physics and Engineering, whether your system is open or closed.

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126. Comment #17679 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 1:09 pm

I see truth in science are quoting from a book by Nobel Physics Laureate R Laughlin suggesting evolution is an antitheory, widely cited as being responsible for various processes, but unfalsifiable and unproveable. This book is a truly excellent and honest appraisal of where much of science and engineering really are at at the moment. This man seems to have no stated religious position.

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127. Comment #17683 by jeff_n on January 15, 2007 at 1:24 pm

Simon Packer says:
"To produce a condition of reduced entropy in the thermodynamic sense takes a machine. Raised free energy levels equals reduced entropy. This is always true in Physics and Engineering, whether your system is open or closed."

Surely it depends on what you mean by a "machine". Do you regard the biosphere as a machine, for example?

I don't think natural selection got life started either. It could have been sheer luck or perhaps there's some mechanism involving self-organising complexity that we haven't figured out yet, but either way I can't see how a self-replicating molecule and its subsequent evolution contravenes the second law.

I think, perhaps, you're seeing design principles where an engineering approach is not applicable. "Chemical machines" are governed by growth from the bottom up rather than top-down design. The information encapsulated in DNA is information about the environment and comes from the environment itself. None of this needs any help from a designer and the overall entropy budget is always what the second law says it should be.

I don't think you're alone in seeing the principles of your specialist subject wherever you look. Dawkins does it too. He often tries to explain complex human social behaviour in Darwinian terms which I think is wholly inappropriate.

I can't agree with what you say about the Bible. I think the Bible is a fascinating cultural artifact (or, rather, artifacts as the various texts reflect the concerns of people from many ancient cultures) but I can't even begin to see why any intelligent person would even think of taking it literally.

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128. Comment #17690 by seals on January 15, 2007 at 2:21 pm

 avatar125. Comment #17676

The Bible says 'In Him we live and move and have our being'...

In short, I believe God set the whole creation in motion and allowed it to diversify within certain boundaries. I believe certain changes occured at the Fall of Man (Genesis 3).


Who cares what the bible says? It's only a work of fiction. Why is it okay to accept the bible contains any scientific truth whatsoever, purely on faith, but in spite of the evidence for it, evolution is "wishful thinking" unless total scientific proof is produced - isn't this a double standard?

Where is the scientific evidence, let alone proof, supporting the bible's apparent claim that the earth is only a few thousand years old? "Apparent", because that's what people who read and believe the bible come away saying it claims - why it should be important that the age of the earth is only 6000 or 10000 years or whatever, is a mystery to me. Without this evidence, surely all the rest of the theorising goes out the window... natural selection would have no time to produce results in just 6000 years. But there must be a flaw in this argument or Mcintosh would have noticed it, would he not?

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129. Comment #17695 by jeff_n on January 15, 2007 at 2:55 pm

Simon Packer says (quoting Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university):
"The principles of thermodynamics even in open systems do not allow a new function using raised free energy levels to be achieved without new machinery. And new machines are not made by simply adding energy to existing machines.
And this thesis is falsifiable. If anyone was to take an existing chemical machine and produce a different chemical machine which was not there before (either as a sub-part or latently coded for in the DNA template) then this argument would have been falsified."

Come to think of it, this argument is not applicable to evolution. No one has ever suggested that organisms produce other organisms in the way McIntosh says. Organisms only ever produce other organisms either by dividing themselves (as in single-cell organisms - this is presumably what he means by "sub-part") or via "the DNA template". If McIntosh agrees that neither of these methods of reproduction contravene the second law, his thermodynamic argument simply doesn't apply.

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130. Comment #17892 by Simon Packer on January 17, 2007 at 10:12 am

Jeff_n
Perhaps McIntosh is taking his cue from Dawkins, who I believe postulated the gene as the driving factor behind evolution by natural selection, as if it were a motivated entity.
DNA is observed to be modified but not much generation by generation, of course, though as you point out the complexity of the peripheral machinery involved in the modification and subsequent selection is vast.
Is it possible to envisage the biosphere slowly nudging itself along in the direction of increased complexity (but by what definition?) while never contravening the 2nd Law? Perhaps, in the pure thermodynamic/statistical sense. I think McIntosh is attempting to formalise the observation that there is a postulated flow with time in the direction of reduced entropy of the molecular systems and microbiological organisation in organisms observed in the fossil record. I say 'postulated' advisedly because there are other possible interpretations of the fossil record.
One problem is that entropy gets hard to define in a complex molecular situation. The working definition of entropy for information theory for example is only vaguely related to the statistical or thermodynamic definition.
We do indeed look at life through different disciplines, of necessity, for the creation is extremely complex and we are usually using a high level simplification (biology) or else observing a very simple situation (physics).
But why would we expect there to be a flow in the direction of increased complexity of organism in the biosphere? Ultimately the words we use when describing the processes of natural selection are anthropomorphisms. They are analysees of consciousness. But the consciousness only applies retrospectively.
To kick off natural selection, a biosphere would have to be in place with all the starting conditions in place for it to get going. The probability problem becomes insurmountable.
Unless you say that first molecular and then organism complexity and the consciousness and survival instinct and the competitive organisms and the reproductive instinct all sort of developed alongside each other. I'm sorry but I really do think that is just plain ridiculous.

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131. Comment #17904 by Simon Packer on January 17, 2007 at 12:21 pm

Reading back through the posts it is clear how effectively indoctrinated most of the posters are with this 'IDers and creationists are naive, thick, senile, liars etc.'
The polarisation, dramatisation and simplistic attitude imparted by much of Dawkins' stuff on religion is rather theatrical to me. Still, this last article seems relatively moderate and reconciliatory.
There is a lot of hit and miss stuff going on in Christianity I must admit, and we do tend to assume the role of God's mouthpiece a bit too readily at times.
Of course the literal 6 24hour day people are aware of the 10^6 or so discrepancy in the age of the earth Richard D mentions.
Where origins are concerned, there are the hard line literalists such as AnswersinGenesis, and usually, Biblical Creation Society. There are the reconcilers with science community consensus dating, such as ReasonstoBelieve. The latter group does not believe evolution, however. I recently spoke briefly to David Block, a professor of astronomy here in South Africa, having attended a presentation he gave at a local church. He clearly has a conventional view of the age of the universe, is a Messianic (converted to Christ) Jew, and a good man. He subscribes to the ReasonstoBelieve perspective. The Catholic Church seems to have embraced evolution.
Personally I think the scientific method fades off into extreme uncertainty as we go back beyond direct human records, and I am willing to believe that the days in early Genesis could be other than 24 hour. Basically I believe Genesis is truth and the enquirer needs to seek God as to what it is saying to them, not to try to undermine it. There is considerable historical, archaeological and circumstantial evidence for the veracity of the rest of the Bible. God calls you to faith in Jesus Christ, who died for your sins because he loves you and wants the best for you. Christ rose from the dead, that you might have a new life which transcends the futility of this world order, excesses of human religous activity included. No one could find the body, because he ascended to heaven. Now because you cannot extrapolate from our current experiences and analasees of existence into these realities, or the creation realities, you may not want to accept this. But you must accept them. You need to come as a little child.

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132. Comment #18072 by Simon Packer on January 18, 2007 at 6:50 am

For the Dawkins disciple, you owe it to yourself to read the 'Evidence for Evolution' on the Truth in Science website. Read and digest.
There are attempts to refute some of these points on TalkOrigins for example.
The answers are usually heavily stylised but lacking in real relevant substance. Lots of phrases like 'It is surprising that creationists say this because' followed by an in depth discourse of highly dubious relevance.
You might also try 'In Six Days', editor John F Ashton PhD where 50 PhD scientists give reasons for their belief in creation and their rejection of evolution. McIntosh has a chapter in here which should remove all doubt about the rather daft insinuation that his knowledge of biology is not up to A-Level, or that he is a mentally challenged hanger-on.
Go on then, guys, I dare you to read it! Use that rational brain of yours!
(Prov 18:17 NIV) The first to present his case seems right, till another comes forward and questions him.
Don't allow your brain to be abused by blinkered, predigested opinion.

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133. Comment #18077 by epeeist on January 18, 2007 at 7:30 am

 avatar"One problem is that entropy gets hard to define in a complex molecular situation."

No it doesn't, it is always K ln W where K is Boltzmann's constant and W is the number of configurations (this is for a closed system). The equation for an open system is equally well defined.

The difficulty is in calculation, where you need to determine the number of possible configurations.

And yes - my Ph.D is in quantum mechanics, so this is something I actually know about.

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134. Comment #18085 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 18, 2007 at 8:46 am

Comment #17904 by Simon Packer

>>God calls you to faith in Jesus Christ, who died for your sins because he loves you and wants the best for you. Christ rose from the dead, that you might have a new life which transcends the futility of this world order, excesses of human religous activity included. No one could find the body, because he ascended to heaven. Now because you cannot extrapolate from our current experiences and analasees of existence into these realities, or the creation realities, you may not want to accept this. But you must accept them. You need to come as a little child.<<

You other posts were interesting, until you started your Evangelical preaching.

I'm sorry, but you're wrong. Firstly, the Muslims would say you've got the story wrong [and you can't prove otherwise]. Secondly, If God wants the best for us, then why did he:

Create death? Disease [Ebola, AIDS, Progeria, Cancer, Parkinsons, just to mention a few]? How do you KNOW that Jesus 'ascended to heaven'? Because the Bible told you so? [Circular reasoning]. I don't accept your God. Why do you not accept my God? I have now decided that Zeus and the Greek Gods are the way. Prove me wrong. Why do YOU not accept them? I know they're there. Prove me wrong.

HOW come Christ died 'for my sins' 2000 or so years, before I was born? I hadn't committed any sin - as I wasn't in existence. So, if I murder somebody tomorrow, will I be forgiven, seeing as he has already died for my sins?

And if this world is 'futile' then WHOSE FAULT IS THIS? Clearly, it's not mine or yours, so I wonder just how 'loving' and how much 'God wants the best for us' then, at all?

You'll be blaming Satan next. The paragraph you posted above is childish vomit. You've proven nothing to any of us, with your evangelical preaching - which all Atheists have heard before and grow tired of hearing. Infact, you said earlier that evolution only explains 99.9% of the answer. Funny that. Because the Bible gives us 0% in evidence. It's just words, words, words, written at a time when men needed guidance.

You've not demonstrated God to me. I wish one of you Theists would. Indeed, most Atheists would love God to exist - we'd love to be wrong. Wishing for something, doesn't make it true.

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135. Comment #18086 by Simon Packer on January 18, 2007 at 8:50 am

Yes, you are right. I apologise. The statistical definition according to Boltzmann is always true and the difficulty is in measurement and calculation.
There is a definition of entropy (with the word used slightly differently) in information theory, according to Shannon. this is used for digital information of any kind.

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136. Comment #18088 by Simon Packer on January 18, 2007 at 9:01 am

Post 135 refered to post 133 not 134! I couldn't remember epeeist!
There are others here who have diverged onto belief issues. There are answers to your questions.
The Koran is not a book with a lot of history to check it's validity. It does not show the historical, doctrinal and internal cohesion shown by the Bible. I bought a copy after 9/11.
The Bible teaches that you were born into a sinful condition in Adam. God does not damn you or even judge you for this. He judges you according to your response to his only answer for your sinful condition, i.e. the sacrifice of Christ on a cross.

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137. Comment #18093 by jeff_n on January 18, 2007 at 9:11 am


Comment #17892 by Simon Packer says:

Perhaps McIntosh is taking his cue from Dawkins, who I believe postulated the gene as the driving factor behind evolution by natural selection, as if it were a motivated entity.

The title of Dawkin's book, The Selfish Gene, might seem to suggest that he regards the gene as a motivated entity, but he never tires of repeating that this is just a metaphor. I think it's an instructive metaphor because it focuses attention on Dawkin's argument that genes are the entities that are selected by natural selection, rather than the individual organism that carries the gene, or the group the individual belongs to, or the species. Genes that are good at getting themselves copied tend to persist within the gene pool, but the reason they are good at getting themselves copied is not necessarily because they tend to contribute to the specification of fit and healthy organisms. Some genes apparently contribute nothing to the specification of the organism and are never "expressed", they're just good at "hitching a ride" on successful genomes. Some are good at getting themselves copied over and over again within a genome. In Dawkin's anthropomorphic metaphor, genes don't "know" or "care" about the proteins or indeed the organisms they encode. They only "survive" within the gene pool if their molecular structure is such that they prove to be good at getting themselves copied over time. He's not postulating a "survival instinct" or consciousness of any kind at the molecular level.


Comment #17892 by Simon Packer says:

We do indeed look at life through different disciplines, of necessity, for the creation is extremely complex and we are usually using a high level simplification (biology) or else observing a very simple situation (physics).

I think we need to think of biology as an emergent phenomenon that cannot (easily) be explained at a lower level. In that sense, biology is not a high-level simplification, it's simply the appropriate level of explanation for the phenomena in question. Another example of emergent phenomena is weather patterns. No one would even think of trying to explain weather in terms of the motions and interactions of individual molecules. The appropriate level of explanation is in terms of high and low pressure systems which are emergent phenomena. Incidentally, even in something as wild and unpredictable as the weather (finely dependent as it is on initial conditions) we get remarkable self-organising complexity in semi-stable structures such as the Azores high. It doesn't seem unlikely that similar self-organisation might happen in a complex "primordial soup", given millions of years for it to occur (and it only needs to happen once). Wikipedia has an article on self-organisation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Self-organisation.

I think McIntosh accepts that evolution by natural selection is an observable fact that can explain adaptation to the environment within species, but he seems to think that it cannot explain the development of new species. This seems to be what he's arguing when he says,

Comment #17676 by Simon Packer (quoting Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university):

"If anyone was to take an existing chemical machine and produce a different chemical machine which was not there before (either as a sub-part or latently coded for in the DNA template) then this argument would have been falsified."

(Of course, you don't need to create a new species to falsify this argument. Every time a mutation occurs you get a "chemical machine which was not there before".)

It also seems to be your view when you say,

Comment #17676 by Simon Packer

"I believe in evolution by natural selection within a God-ordained and designed 'type'.

The problem here is that the designation "species" is nowhere near so clear cut as you seem to think. The distinction between one species and another is very often blurred. For example, some species can and do mate with apparently separate species and sometimes the resulting hybrids are fertile. "Species" is just a concept we use to make sense of the natural world but nature is not really arranged so neatly (in fact, for single cell organisms that reproduce by division and can share DNA with other unrelated organisms, it's not clear what "species" means at all).

Often the distinction between species, like humans and chimpanzees, appears clear cut but this is only because the ancestors of humans and chimpanzees between now and our last common ancestor are all dead. If you could follow the family tree of humans back to the last common ancestor of both humans and chimpanzees and then follow the family tree of chimpanzees from the last common ancestor all the way to modern chimps you would never notice a difference from one generation to the next. You wouldn't even notice a difference if you jumped a thousand generations because evolution works at a snails pace. For a very clear explanation of this, including examples where the intermediate organisms between two separate species are all alive now, I urge you to read The Salamander's Tale in Dawkins' The Ancestor's Tale.

Many mechanisms of speciation are, in fact, well understood. Just search for "speciation" on the Web and you'll find lots of info and I'm sure you'll find none of it stretches credulity. There are also very easily understood mechanisms whereby the number of chromosomes in the genome of a population can change over time without ever having a situation where organisms of one generation cannot interbreed with earlier or later generations. The evolution of new "chemical machines" happens in exactly the same way as the "microevolution" that you accept.

Your idea that God is guiding all this appears to unnecessarily complicate the issue, which is why most scientists reject the idea. For example, if I propose that mutations (which might be caused by anything from cosmic rays to radioactivity to quantum tunnelling) are guided by angels, I create even more questions than I started with, eg. "What, exactly, are angels?", "How do they influence cosmic rays, quantum fluctuations, etc.?", "How do they know what to do?", "Why do they do it?", and so on. In science, simple explanations are always preferred to unnecessarily complicated ones.


Comment ##17904 by Simon Packer says:

Reading back through the posts it is clear how effectively indoctrinated most of the posters are with this 'IDers and creationists are naive, thick, senile, liars etc.'

Yes, I agree. But sometimes it can seem that creationists are wilfully ignoring vast bodies of evidence or that they are simply ignorant of it. There are all sorts of lines of evidence that lead us to conclude that the universe, the Earth and life itself are immensely ancient, but people who know little and understand even less about all this insist that the Earth is less than 10,000 years old, basing their evidence for this solely on a Bronze Age Middle Eastern creation myth that was edited and re-edited by an untold number of anonymous scribes (often with conflicting agendas) for hundreds of years before it was fixed in the form we have today. If you look at the situation clearly I'm sure you'll agree that such an idea does seem pretty ludicrous.

Bible scholars tell us that we don't even have the original texts of the various Bible books and that there is all sorts of evidence of intentional and unintentional changes to whatever the original texts said, including lengthy interpolations and even entirely faked books. We don't know what the original texts said, but even the ones we have disagree with one another in many ways. The New Testament is largely the result of infighting amongst different factions who had very different ideas and it seems safe to assume the Old Testament reflects similar disagreements (Isaiah, for example, is clearly a polemic arguing for the hegemony of a particular faction or tribe). There isn't any reliable evidence of the Earthly existence of Jesus outside the New Testament, and what we have is clearly based largely on a single extant source (Mark). It is possible, with scholarship, to argue that Rabbi Yeshua bin Yosef never existed at all (see this page, for example). Consequently, it would seem ill-advised to base our entire world-view and our entire understanding of the universe on this very human and very flawed set of texts.

I do, however, agree with you that we should approach life as a little child. I regard the universe with child-like wonder and my experiences in meditation have taught me that all my knowledge is relative and contingent (but nonetheless useful in the appropriate context). We might even be talking about the same thing in different words, but where you say we should approach God as a little child, I say we should approach the Absolute as a little child who has no concepts at all, not even the very human concept of "God".

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138. Comment #18095 by jeff_n on January 18, 2007 at 9:31 am


Comment #18088 by Simon Packer says:
It [The Koran] does not show the historical, doctrinal and internal cohesion shown by the Bible.

If the Bible does show doctrinal and internal cohesion (and this is highly debatable), a simple explanation would be that generations of scribes changed ("corrected") what they thought to be mistakes made by earlier scribes in order to reconcile conflicting statements. This demonstably happened many times in the copying of the New Testament (see Bart Ehman's "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why").

Tolstoy's "War and Peace" contains much that is historically accurate and some of the events described really happened, but no one thinks Tolstoy's characters were real people (although they might be based on real people). Similarly, the Jesus story might have started as an allegorical tale with a bit of historical detail to make it more interesting or believable. We just don't know. We do, however, know that much of the historical detail is inaccurate.

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139. Comment #18213 by Simon Packer on January 19, 2007 at 2:44 am

Thanks for the response Jeff which demands a reasonable reply. I don't know how to use all the facilities of the editor.

I admit I only have one of Dawkin's books, it's in the UK and I can't remember the title. It's the one in which he comments on the interview with someone associated with Answers in Genesis, released on a DVD called 'From a Frog to a Prince' which I have, again, at home in the UK. AiG have recorded the nature of the discourse and subsequent goings on on their website. This is quite enlightening. Anyway I'm told 'The Selfish Gene' is a well thought out book. What you say makes reasonable sense to me as far as it goes, in that it suggests a viable potential mechanism for gene self-propagation. In Physics, thats all it would be, i.e. a potentially viable mechanism. A postulated mechanism is not a proof. The statistics have to be right. A valid mathematical model, of necessity numerical in this case, would be required. I was not suggesting RD was implying consciousness at a molecular level.

I agree biology is better described as being primarily about emergent phenomena, emergent being defined in the sort of way that R Laughlin describes. This to me raises the philosophical question of where do these emergent phenomena come from? In maths, it is initially a surprise that e^i(pi)=-1. But if you go into the trig and the complex plane the connections become apparent. The whole innate organisation behind the existence we see around us astonishes me, whichever discipline and level of emergent phenomena you are talking about. Laughlin describes emergence in simple physics situations where the mechanism is hidden. It could be interactions between physical laws we have yet to grasp, in a way analogous to the maths example above. In this way organisation can emerge in unexpected ways.

Scientific reductionism ultimately says 'everything is nothing and made itself by mistake'.

Ultimately the fact that you experience life as a conscious entity is an really amazing emergent phenomenon. Is the fact that this can happen merely due to the innate properties of matter at the 'nuts and bolts' level of Quantum Mechanics and elementary particles?
Interestingly, Richard Feynman (was it 'The Character of Physical Law'?), having stated that QM was inherently beyond rigorous conceptualisation and had to be taken 'on faith' (my words), in the same book he points out how implausible faith healing is. My wife is a nurse/manager and is still in touch with a lady she was giving terminal care to. They are both Christians and began to claim God's promises from the Bible over healing. She was healed of two terminal conditions. She lives in the States now and her doctor having read her records called her in for tests. She is still healthy, though occasionally weak, over a decade later.

Making a baby is an emergent phenomenon of sorts. You don't do anything that complicated, considering the results. For me Faith in the Bible as the Word of God is the ultimate emergent phenomena. 'God said, 'Let there be light' and there was light.' 'Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.' I know an African Pastor whom I am inclined to believe who became a Christian, read the bit about disciples raising the dead and naively went looking for a dead person to pray for. He did this 3 times and each time the person was raised. He also did it once for a chicken belonging to a Moslem woman who was crying, which got up and laid an egg! There are accounts of the British evangelist Smith Wigglesworth having raised the dead last century.

God has said the emergent phenomenon of your mortal body will one day be resurrected in a different form, but still be you. You will then face judgement. God knows the essence of the organisational entity which is yourself or myself. It's bodily identity can be transposed into another form, evidently.

I am not a zoologist and cannot really comment in detail on speciation. I know little about it. But to me there is very distinct speciation in the animal kingdom and in the fossil record. I am in Johannesburg and I made an effort to visit the nearby 'Cradle of Mankind' and in particular the Sterkfontein Caves and Marapong sites. These really don't prove or show much and I noticed that 2 of the relics/models with the same latin name looked radically different. The entity of many secimens and models is suspect. What I did notice is how uncritically most visitors accept the interpretations presented, skipping seamlessly between the speculative skeletal models of the descent from common ancestor to the rather patchy actual specimens. The guide told us that opinions were in a constant state of flux regarding hominid remains. The key remains here are 'Little Foot' whom they would not let us look at, and of whom there was no model to examine, and 'Mrs Ples'.

These broad interpretative issues on the fossil record are covered on 'Truth in Science'. I will try and get a look at 'The Ancestor's Tale'. I appreciate most people think evolution works at a snail's pace, and of course this is a philosophical driver for an old earth and universe.
I'll take your word about the chemical mechanisms for chromosone number alteration for the moment.
What is not understood is how DNA codes into phenotype and whether this is meaningful independant of the cell. Many genes affect several facets of the phenotype. Our understanding is partial and superficial. How do the cells differentiate? How does the organism maintain it's organisational entity? How does it go through the stages of life? Yet we attempt to make authoratative statements about the supposed paths these messangers take as they alledgedly organise to produce more advanced species.
I do not believe in guided macroevolution. As I said I believe in created kinds free to adapt and diversify within certain designed-in boundaries, with the outcome known by Designer foreknowledge

Regarding the Bible, the opinions you state are minority. The Bible has good error checking through large numbers of manuscripts translated early into several languages. The fit with archaelogy is good. Isaiah was commonly regarded as a late synthesis of 3 different authors by the largely German 'higher criticism' movement which started questioning the assumption that the Bible was infallible around the late 1800s. Soon afterwards an ancient copy of the entire book was found.
I see a cohesion in it that can only be described as Divine. It is 'God Breathed'. There is loads of stuff trying to say Jesus never existed. Again, rather minority stuff. Someone said, 'There is a Christ-sized hole in history.'

When all is said and done, you are born into a race of sinners. Christ died to make you righteous before God. You receive forgiveness and new life by faith. It is your only meaningful hope in this age and the age to come. 'God so loved the world that he gave his only Son that whoever believes in him might not perish but have everlasting life' (John 3v16) 'If you confess with your mouth the Lord Jesus, and believe in your heart God raised him from the dead, you will be saved'.(Romans 10v9). It is not necessary to understand these statements at the molecular or QM level!

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140. Comment #18249 by jeff_n on January 19, 2007 at 5:59 am

Hi Simon,

I'm not a zoologist either but I'm interested in the subject. I agree that there is a great deal that we don't understand about biology, but I'm sure we'll understand a lot more in the future. We're only just beginning to unravel the mysteries of how genes cause cells to differentiate but we already know about several classes of genes (eg. "Hox" genes) that control the expression of other genes, and we know that these mechanisms are governed by chemical gradients, but we've clearly got a lot to learn.

I agree that consciusness is absolutely astounding and I have no answers there. I do, however, hope that we will understand how the brain produces consciousness at some time in the future. We know a great deal more about the brain than we did twenty years ago and the rate of discoveries appears to be accelerating, due to more refined observational techniques and more researchers taking an interest. There are a number of research projects under way that are attempting to reverse engineer specific regions of the brain, and some of these are at a very advanced stage. Within 30 years or so we may well have machines that pass the Turing test to everyone's satisfaction, and if such a machine tells us it's conscious, who are we to argue? That will surely tell us a great deal about the nature of consciousness and the innate capacity of the universe to evolve consciousness of itself (through us and our technology). We may well merge with our technology in the coming decades to the point where death will cease to have any meaning (because when your biological body is destroyed you'll have a fully functional back-up of your mind on the network).

Of course, a complete understanding of consciousness will not explain why the universe has the capacity to evolve consciousness, but some variation of the anthropic principle might be the explanation here. For example, David Deutsch of Oxford University enthusiastically supports the "many worlds" interpretation of quantum mechanics, for which he argues very coherently in his book The Fabric of Reality. In his understanding there are infinite parallel universes, each slightly different from all the rest, and anything that is physically possible will happen somewhere in this limitless "multiverse". Because we're able to think about this, we must therefore be in one of the tiny minority of universes that have evolved consciousness. Given that we have no reason to believe that our spacetime continuum is the only one, ideas like this are not self-evidently silly.

'God said, 'Let there be light' and there was light.' 'Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.' I know an African Pastor whom I am inclined to believe who became a Christian, read the bit about disciples raising the dead and naively went looking for a dead person to pray for. He did this 3 times and each time the person was raised. He also did it once for a chicken belonging to a Moslem woman who was crying, which got up and laid an egg! There are accounts of the British evangelist Smith Wigglesworth having raised the dead last century.

As I'm sure you know, anecdotal evidence counts for nothing in science. Hundreds of thousands of Americans claim to have been abducted by aliens, but that tells us more about social psychology than it does about extraterrestrial life. Of course, if your pastor friend could resurrect dead chickens under controlled conditions, that would be a different matter.

Regarding the Bible, the opinions you state are minority. The Bible has good error checking through large numbers of manuscripts translated early into several languages.

Yes, there are thousands of manuscript copies of the New Testament books and they differ from one another in a huge number of ways. Bart Ehman, an eminent textual critic at Harvard, says there are more variations in the textual tradition than there are words in the New Testament! Reconstructing the originals is not a trivial task and well-meaning experts often reach different conclusions using the same evidence. And the conclusions they reach can and do affect the interpretation of whole books. Ehman's book "Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why" is an excellent introduction to the field of textual criticism which I would thoroughly recommend to anyone. In the book, Ehman describes his journey from "born again" evangelical Christian, through two strict Bible colleges and his PhD at Harvard to the agnostic position he holds today. He slowly realised that the New Testament texts are very human books.

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141. Comment #18260 by epeeist on January 19, 2007 at 7:13 am

 avatar
Comment #18213 by Simon Packer says

Richard Feynman (was it 'The Character of Physical Law'?), having stated that QM was inherently beyond rigorous conceptualisation and had to be taken 'on faith' (my words)


If you are going to quote Feynman then you really ought not to miss this one:

"It doesn't matter how beautiful your theory is, it doesn't matter how smart you are. If it doesn't agree with experiment, it's wrong"

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142. Comment #18765 by Simon Packer on January 22, 2007 at 10:12 pm

Textual critics are two a penny, a bit like evolutionary theorists. I honestly can't be bothered with it at the moment. I have been looking at John's Gospel, Chapter 6, which is substantially different from the others, but indusputably describes the same amazing and wonderful man, Jesus Christ, the incarnation of the Most High God. The same boldness, radical teaching, astonishing claims. (John 7:17 NIV) If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.
If you have set your heart on living apart from God, Satan will have no difficulty persuading you to believe a lie of one sort or another. The approach he takes will depend on your outlook, culture, education. For many in the west, 'scientific' endorsement of unbelief is the chosen method.
But be aware you are being deceived. There is a real need for repentance, that you may be saved from the wrath to come. God's patience with humanity will come to an end.

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143. Comment #18769 by roach on January 22, 2007 at 10:43 pm

What's God's will again?

The Bible sure is an interesting book. And the ability of the human mind to bend the words into any meaning will never cease to amaze me.

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144. Comment #18782 by Simon Packer on January 23, 2007 at 1:55 am

In reply to Roach,

All Christian denominations (I am not including the faiths that hold other interpretative texts as having equal importance to the Bible and/or have modified their translations in an arbitary and unscholarly way, such as Jehovah's Witnesses, Mormons, Seventh Day Adventists etc) hold that :

(1) God's existence is self evident and it requires the manufacture of elaborate excuses to deny this.

(Rom 1:20 NIV) For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

(2) In Adam, we are part of a race of sinners. You are born into this condition. You cannot help yourself from sinning in God's sight. Your
very inner nature is not acceptable t