The Only One in Step102. Comment #17175 by seals on January 11, 2007 at 12:47 pm
103. Comment #17177 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 11, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Ridelo - I used to be 'Christian'. Indeed, it was rammed into me. Growing older, we all grow wiser [and hopefully more knowledgeable], I've rejected all supernatural superstition. I only really celebrate Christmas - as a nice way to end a year - and scoff Easter eggs! Yum yum!104. Comment #17178 by gimlibengloin on January 11, 2007 at 1:34 pm
Seals (102)105. Comment #17187 by robert s on January 11, 2007 at 2:50 pm
Surely 'knowledge of design' is only useful if organisms are actually designed.106. Comment #17189 by roach on January 11, 2007 at 3:17 pm
I've seen a greater number of engineers supporting ID than any other scientist. I suppose this makes sense given the fact that engineers make their living designing things. I respect engineers. Their practical application of science is directly responsible for civilization as we know it. But with all their knowledge of thermodynamics and their ingenuity, I don't understand how they can escape the infinite regress and simply magic God/The Creator into existence and be satisfied with that explanation.107. Comment #17190 by seals on January 11, 2007 at 3:30 pm
108. Comment #17240 by gimlibengloin on January 12, 2007 at 9:17 am
Robert s (105)109. Comment #17246 by briancoughlanworldcitizen on January 12, 2007 at 9:48 am
110. Comment #17321 by Simon Packer on January 12, 2007 at 10:52 pm
All the creationists/IDers I know of including MacIntosh and myself believe in natural selection. The question is on what does natural selection work and how far can natural selection alter a given organism.111. Comment #17523 by gimlibengloin on January 14, 2007 at 12:20 pm
Brian (109)112. Comment #17524 by gimlibengloin on January 14, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Brian cont...113. Comment #17528 by roach on January 14, 2007 at 2:10 pm
gimlibengloin says:114. Comment #17531 by jeff_n on January 14, 2007 at 2:43 pm
gimlibengloin says:
All experiments with fruitflies have failed to produce anything put a fruit fly.
115. Comment #17548 by Fedler on January 14, 2007 at 4:49 pm
116. Comment #17601 by Hoddlwood on January 15, 2007 at 4:40 am
gimlibengloin (101)117. Comment #17637 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 8:36 am
Blind orthodoxy once revolved around religion in this country. It now perhaps revolves around 'scientific' concensus.118. Comment #17639 by JohnC on January 15, 2007 at 8:42 am
119. Comment #17640 by epeeist on January 15, 2007 at 8:48 am
120. Comment #17643 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 8:52 am
John, sorry about the spelling mistake. Perhaps you would like to answer the points, and the ones about the limitations of natural selection in 110 above?121. Comment #17644 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 9:03 am
Scientific consensus is the prevailing paradigm through which the evidence is viewed. As an engineer, if that paradigm is supported by a mathematical model or even some concise predictions, it becomes more and more plausible. All I see with the geological timescale and the interpretations of the fossil record allegedly supporting evolution are hypothesising without solid verification. The evidence simply is not there. I wonder how RD would set about verifying the design of, say, a suggested new format of electric motor? We are dealing with a very loose high-level philosophical interpretation of a huge amount of data. There are no rigorous numerical models, no consistent evolutionary pathways, huge numbers of detailed problems, many volumes of waffle, but no reasonably proven theory.122. Comment #17648 by VanYoungman on January 15, 2007 at 9:19 am
123. Comment #17649 by jeff_n on January 15, 2007 at 9:39 am
Simon Packer says:
The late SJ Gould I believe acknowledged the discontinuities in the fossil record and postulated hopeful mutations which were major step changes in an organism in one generation. Besides stretching credulity to the limit in the sense of expecting a mutation to suddenly result in a meaningful and viable substantially different species, it raises the question of where Mrs Hopeful Mutation came from and how they met.
Simon Packer says:
Natural Selection requires certain conditions before it can operate. It requires a reproduction/birth/death cycle, it requires a survival instinct, and arguably a discrimonatory environment. Which came first, natural selection requiring an organism which could fight for survival or the organism capable of fighting for survival? If the second, how did it get here?
Simon Packer says:
The issue behind MacIntosh's postulate (stated on the Truth in Science website)is that many Laws of Physics are universal as far as we know, and if we are using the scientific method we must postulate a mechanism for an observed departure from them.
124. Comment #17650 by JohnC on January 15, 2007 at 9:42 am
125. Comment #17676 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 12:53 pm
Jeff_n126. Comment #17679 by Simon Packer on January 15, 2007 at 1:09 pm
I see truth in science are quoting from a book by Nobel Physics Laureate R Laughlin suggesting evolution is an antitheory, widely cited as being responsible for various processes, but unfalsifiable and unproveable. This book is a truly excellent and honest appraisal of where much of science and engineering really are at at the moment. This man seems to have no stated religious position.127. Comment #17683 by jeff_n on January 15, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Simon Packer says:
"To produce a condition of reduced entropy in the thermodynamic sense takes a machine. Raised free energy levels equals reduced entropy. This is always true in Physics and Engineering, whether your system is open or closed."
128. Comment #17690 by seals on January 15, 2007 at 2:21 pm
129. Comment #17695 by jeff_n on January 15, 2007 at 2:55 pm
Simon Packer says (quoting Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university):
"The principles of thermodynamics even in open systems do not allow a new function using raised free energy levels to be achieved without new machinery. And new machines are not made by simply adding energy to existing machines.
And this thesis is falsifiable. If anyone was to take an existing chemical machine and produce a different chemical machine which was not there before (either as a sub-part or latently coded for in the DNA template) then this argument would have been falsified."
130. Comment #17892 by Simon Packer on January 17, 2007 at 10:12 am
Jeff_n131. Comment #17904 by Simon Packer on January 17, 2007 at 12:21 pm
Reading back through the posts it is clear how effectively indoctrinated most of the posters are with this 'IDers and creationists are naive, thick, senile, liars etc.'132. Comment #18072 by Simon Packer on January 18, 2007 at 6:50 am
For the Dawkins disciple, you owe it to yourself to read the 'Evidence for Evolution' on the Truth in Science website. Read and digest.133. Comment #18077 by epeeist on January 18, 2007 at 7:30 am
134. Comment #18085 by NoLongerHaveBelief on January 18, 2007 at 8:46 am
Comment #17904 by Simon Packer135. Comment #18086 by Simon Packer on January 18, 2007 at 8:50 am
Yes, you are right. I apologise. The statistical definition according to Boltzmann is always true and the difficulty is in measurement and calculation.136. Comment #18088 by Simon Packer on January 18, 2007 at 9:01 am
Post 135 refered to post 133 not 134! I couldn't remember epeeist!137. Comment #18093 by jeff_n on January 18, 2007 at 9:11 am
Comment #17892 by Simon Packer says:
Perhaps McIntosh is taking his cue from Dawkins, who I believe postulated the gene as the driving factor behind evolution by natural selection, as if it were a motivated entity.
Comment #17892 by Simon Packer says:
We do indeed look at life through different disciplines, of necessity, for the creation is extremely complex and we are usually using a high level simplification (biology) or else observing a very simple situation (physics).
Comment #17676 by Simon Packer (quoting Professor Andrew McIntosh of Leeds university):
"If anyone was to take an existing chemical machine and produce a different chemical machine which was not there before (either as a sub-part or latently coded for in the DNA template) then this argument would have been falsified."
Comment #17676 by Simon Packer
"I believe in evolution by natural selection within a God-ordained and designed 'type'.
Comment ##17904 by Simon Packer says:
Reading back through the posts it is clear how effectively indoctrinated most of the posters are with this 'IDers and creationists are naive, thick, senile, liars etc.'
138. Comment #18095 by jeff_n on January 18, 2007 at 9:31 am
Comment #18088 by Simon Packer says:
It [The Koran] does not show the historical, doctrinal and internal cohesion shown by the Bible.
139. Comment #18213 by Simon Packer on January 19, 2007 at 2:44 am
Thanks for the response Jeff which demands a reasonable reply. I don't know how to use all the facilities of the editor.140. Comment #18249 by jeff_n on January 19, 2007 at 5:59 am
Hi Simon,'God said, 'Let there be light' and there was light.' 'Lay hands on the sick and they shall recover.' I know an African Pastor whom I am inclined to believe who became a Christian, read the bit about disciples raising the dead and naively went looking for a dead person to pray for. He did this 3 times and each time the person was raised. He also did it once for a chicken belonging to a Moslem woman who was crying, which got up and laid an egg! There are accounts of the British evangelist Smith Wigglesworth having raised the dead last century.
Regarding the Bible, the opinions you state are minority. The Bible has good error checking through large numbers of manuscripts translated early into several languages.
141. Comment #18260 by epeeist on January 19, 2007 at 7:13 am
Comment #18213 by Simon Packer says
Richard Feynman (was it 'The Character of Physical Law'?), having stated that QM was inherently beyond rigorous conceptualisation and had to be taken 'on faith' (my words)
142. Comment #18765 by Simon Packer on January 22, 2007 at 10:12 pm
Textual critics are two a penny, a bit like evolutionary theorists. I honestly can't be bothered with it at the moment. I have been looking at John's Gospel, Chapter 6, which is substantially different from the others, but indusputably describes the same amazing and wonderful man, Jesus Christ, the incarnation of the Most High God. The same boldness, radical teaching, astonishing claims. (John 7:17 NIV) If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.143. Comment #18769 by roach on January 22, 2007 at 10:43 pm
What's God's will again?144. Comment #18782 by Simon Packer on January 23, 2007 at 1:55 am
In reply to Roach,
101. Comment #17159 by gimlibengloin on January 11, 2007 at 10:43 am
Hoddlwood (96)Actually McIntosh does have biological credentials. The UK's Engineering and Physical Sciences Research Council in 2003 funded McIntosh to lead a three year project on the Bombadier Beetles defensive mechanism and to find possible biometric applications for it. See
www.epsr.ac.uk/PressReleases/BeetlesCouldProveAHitWithTheAircraftIndustry
So at least in the area of this little criter (ie the Beetle not McIntosh ho, ho) McIntosh does have biological expertise
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